LL-L "Language varities" 2002.08.12 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.AUG.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.02 (06) [E]

Ron wrote:

>I understand that the language varieties of the Orkney Islands are
>different from Shetlandic ones (and different from Mainland Scots ones).
>
>Questions:
>
>(1) Can any of you tell us just a bit more about it?
>
>(2) Is any of you able to translate our web welcome into Orcadian
>    or can persuade a non-subscriber to do so?

As a Shetlander, I have the same problem with Orcadian as I have heard
you, Ron, say you have with some Lowland languages - that is, I can
understand it easily, but I don't really have an 'inside' knowledge of
it, because to me it sounds like a mixture of Shetlandic and Mainland
Scots! On balance, it is much more like Shetlandic (and is grouped along
with it by linguists as 'Insular Scots') but I wouldn't attempt to speak
or write it.
>
>The best I've been able to find about it is the following:
>http://www.xrefer.com/entry/443227
>
>And of course references in our own Andy Eagle's works:
>http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/pronunci.htm
>
>I haven't found any online language samples.
>
>And who is willing to inform the author (sandystevenson at thefreesite.com)
>of the following page that "Scottish English" is not the same as
>"Scots"?

Which following page is that?

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.08.04 (08) [E]

Erek wrote:
>
>Ron suggested that I share this idea with the rest of the group.  How
>does it sound to all of you, particularly those of you most interested
>in Scots/Shetlandic/Orkney.
>
>Perhaps, it's time to come up with some nomenclature for different
>> languages using the same name.  Modern Shetlandic and Orkney "dialects",
>> while bearing influence of their Norse past, are clearly part of some
>> Scots tradition.  You, and perhaps those like "The Adventures o'McNab",
>> asf, are no doubt better equipt to speak to this matter, but I (in my
>> semi-ignorance -- it used to be less till I've read all of the Scots
>> material coming across "lowlands-l") will toos out these suggestions in
>> the hope that we'll know whereof we allude at some time in the future:
>>
>> Old Shetlandic (Norse-based) -- Norn Shetlandic (or "ns").
>> Modern Shetlandic (West Germanic) -- Scots Shetlandic (or "ss").
>> Old Orkney (Norse-based "Orcadian") -- Norn Orkney (or "no").
>> Modern Orkney (West Germanic) -- Scots Orkney (or "so").
>>
>> [One reason I suggest reversing the noun and the adjective is to avoid
>> obvious abbreviational confusion that is "on" typically is identified
>> with Old Norse, and "os" with Old Saxon.]

I don't see any point in inventing terms where adequate ones already
exist. The Norse dialects once spoken in Orkney, Shetland and Caithness
are always referred to as 'Norn' and are differentiated as Caithness
Norn, Orkney Norn and Shetland Norn respectively. To use terms such as
'Norn Shetlandic' would be to replace terms which already have a
recognised meaning - such as 'Shetland Norn' with terms which don't.

A more serious problem with 'Norn Shetlandic' and 'Scots Shetlandic' is
that they imply that these are two different varieties of one entity -
'Shetlandic' - whereas in fact Norn and modern Shetlandic are different
languages. In this respect, the reversal of the noun and adjective is
potentially misleading.

The question of what to call modern Shetlandic is rather less clear. I
see nothing wrong with 'Shetlandic', as this term is widely used by
Scottish linguists, and is never confused with the Norse language Norn.
Any confusion which may arise is simply owing to unfamiliarity with the
usual terminology, and it seems to me that inventing another terminology
will simply add more confusion. The distinction from Norn can, if
wished, be made explicit by writing 'modern Shetlandic.'

BTW - why 'Orkney' and 'Shetlandic'? Why not either 'Orcadian' and
'Shetlandic' or 'Orkney' and 'Shetland'?

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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