LL-L "Etymology" 2002.08.23 (05) [E]

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From: cornelius bergen <cbergen1 at shaw.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.08.23 (03) [E]

Some dialects of Mennonite Plaut-Dietsch use "Op-schnaken" as listening
in
to other people's conversations.Cor

----------

From: Colin Wilson <lcwilson at btinternet.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.08.23 (01) [E]

Criostoir O Ciardha writes:

>I immediately thought the same. I would have thought,
>however, that "hill of the sun" was "cnoc na ngrian"
>or even "cnoc ghreine" the adjective following the
>noun as is standard in all Celtic languages. As far as
>I know, and at least in my usage, "grian" is not one
>of the exceptional words that can be used as a prefix,
>unlike "sean" (old) for example. Therefore I suspect
>that Greenock's etymology is not "sun hill" at all,
>and linguistic substrates of the region, particularly
>Brythonic, should be investigated.
>
>I happen to believe it is simply a mauling of "green
>oak" (or whatever Scots form thereof) - perhaps
>indicating a tree smothered with green lichen. This in
>itself may be a Scots translation of an earlier Gaelic
>or Brythonic placename - probably something like
>"draoi ghlais".

It's certainly true that the usual way to express "hill of the sun"
or "sun hill" would be _cnoc na grèine_, with the qualifying noun
after the qualified.

However, there's a certain licence with place-names, especially if
the qualifying characteristic is as much, if not more, a part of
the nature of a place as the qualified one. Thus, Dwelly's dictionary
gives names such as _Eun-Eilean_ (English, "Inellan"), literally
"bird island" which usually would be expressed as _Eilean nan Eun_.
So "Grian-Chnoc" for Greenock isn't too far-fetched on that basis.

Criostoir suggests "green oak" as the derivation, which in Scots would
be "green aik". With the stress on the first syllable, that does
actually
sound quite a lot like "Greenock". Also, Greenock is situated on
the southern shore of the Firth of Clyde, in a north-facing position,
which tends to cast doubt on the idea of it being a sunny place.

Ross Ahlfeld writes:

>The source is a book which was published about 100 years ago called
>"Views
>and Reminiscences of Old Renfrewshire " by William Macrae it also states
>that the translation for "Gourock" would be "Gorriag" meaning "Bay Hill"
>(Which was also another site of Druid worship) Do you know if this
>translation and meaning are correct as the term Bay Hill is still used
>locally ?

Dewlly gives the Gaelic name as "Goraig", but that certainly doesn't
suggest anything resembling "Bay Hill", which would be "Cnoc a' Bhàigh"
or (in the inverted form sometimes seen in place-names) "Bàgh-Chnoc".
The bay (laurel) tree is _laibhreas_ , so it obviously isn't derived
from that either.

Goodwill to all,

Colin Wilson.

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