LL-L "Grammar" 2002.08.24 (02) [S]

Sat Aug 24 17:18:16 UTC 2002

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Grammar"

> From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
> Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.08.18 (07) [S]
>
> I think I'v been misunderstaundin ye here, Sandy. I wis takkin 'contact
> form' ti mean whan a verb is richt niest it's 'proper pronoun' - like

Nach, A'v made a bourach o'd wi ma ain shauchlt terminology!

> bein a numpty here!) Like, whan ye say at Lorimer:
> >
> >(4) disna uize contack forms but is consistent wi the ither "clessic"
> >forms.
>
> div ye mean at he disna follae the rule at a verb ends in -s except
> neist it's pronoun?

That's what A meant!

> If sae, whit aboot this:
>
> 'Men an weimen i this warld _mairries_, but them at is hauden wurdie tae
> win (infinitive) tae the neist warld an rise (infinitive) frae the deid
> _mairries_ nane, for than they _ar_ (in contact wi pronoun) like the
> angels an canna die, an throu the resurrection _hes_ (no in contact wi
> pronoun) been born again as sons o God.'
>
> This seems ti me ti be exactly the rule ye'v been sayin. Sae whit div ye
> mean whan ye say Lorimer disna dae it? Is it yer terminology I'm no
> liftin? Or bi 'contact forms' div ye mean maks like 'A kens' etc?

Ay, it dis leuk like he follaes "ma" rules efter aa - A dinna
think A'd get confused juist wi the praisence o infinitives
or imperatives, tho A did think A'd seen Lorimer brekkin thir
rules. Is it possible that Lorimer varies his verb concord
conform tae the dialeck he's uizin? The'r twae things is
staunin in ma road o gittin this richt - first is, A dinna
notice whan grammar's richt - it's the wrang stuff that
sticks oot. Sae it micht be that A juist disna notice
passages like the ane you quotit. The ither thing is,
Lorimer's copyricht, sae A'd nae intention o scannin it in
(wi the ither beuks A can uize a database an filter on
grammatical features, seein's A hae them on the machine). A
dout A'll hae tae scan Lorimer in for ma ain uise an hae a
richt leuk at what kin o things he daes.

> 1. Thatten monie Scots writers uises the English forms at whan ye finnd
> forms at's different frae the English it's aither:
>
> a) Cause thay'v slippit in frae the writer's speak - uisually
> inconsistently.
>
> b) Cause the writer is deleeberately follaein some rule (Lorimer)
>
> Sae whan we come ower uiss o Scots verb concord at's naither
> tradeetional Scots nor English, it coud be at that's the wey the writer
> speaks!

Ay, A see what ye'r sayin. A'd say A masel comes hauf roads
atween (a) an (b) abuin - A ken the rules but the'r times
whan what A wad say gauns against them (an against English
uizage baith). This whiles gars me stop an fickle ower what
needs pitten doun, but times like that A dout a body haes
tae gaun wi their intuition, cause itherroads ye could loss
something important juist for the sake o a rule.

> >A lands at the same conclusion thinkin on aa the texts A kens,
>
> Hou dis 'A lands' an 'A kens' fit inti the rule?

Ay, this is it, ye see, it seems richt tae me but A'm no shuir
how - "A lands" is aesy, the implication bein A'v thocht it ower
an ower an ay comes tae the same conclusion (ie it's the habitual),
A'm no sae shuir aboot "A kens". It's kin o like what A wis askin
in the first place anent hou the Praisent Historic developed - dis
spaekers whiles transfer the concord fae ae pairt o the sentence
tae anither, sae's ance ye'v sayed "A lands" ye micht finnd yersel
sayin "A kens" an aa? Like the Praisent Historic, this wad be mair
modern than traditional, A dout. Gin ma intuition aboot it's richt
ava!

Some spaekers in ma airt seems tae uize the Praisent Historic an
Habitual awfu, awfu heavy. A dinna think A catches them brekkin
ony rules, tho - it's juist that some fowk's that fou o stories
an their ain opeenions, that maist o what they say needs inflectin!

Something A wis ficklin ower juist the ither nicht whan A saw masel
writin it is, what's the rule ahint a expression like "A needs pit
something aby..." or "Ye needsna gae that faur...". The'r naething
wrang wi sayin "Ye needna gae that faur..." as faur as A can see,
but the chainged verb form "needs" seems tae hae a ettle mair like
"buid". Houanever, sayin, "A need pit something aby..." soonds wrang
tae me.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org

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