LL-L "Phonology" 2002.08.29 (01) [D/E]

Thu Aug 29 14:28:01 UTC 2002

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 29.AUG.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.lowlands-l.net> Email: admin at lowlands-l.net
 Rules & Guidelines: <http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Luc Hellinckx" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Phonology

Beste leeglanners,

Part of my previous message apparently got lost somewhere along the
line...so I'll paste it again here, and explain it a little :

"...Even though (southern) Brabantish is probably not as keen on
stressing
the
first part of a compound noun as, say Saxon, we do also have a series of
words where the accent is put on the last syllable.

The first one that springs to mind is : "Katuit" (pronounced Katóët, and
not
Kátoët). It's the name of the last sunday of a week of annual
festivities
(so called Kermis + Jaarmarkt). In some places there is a special
procession
where giants (Reuzen) are parading through the streets. The etymology of
the
word is obscure to me but the second part of the word is probably "uit"
(D),
"out" (E), "aus" (G), so it's not really a compound noun.

There's two other words that show the same sort of accent : "böddelóët"
(B)
and "bolóët" (B), both referring to a person who likes to speak his mind
in
an unabashed, loud, frank and brazen way. The famous medieval family
"Borluut" from Ghent has the same name.

In Fiete's case however, I think we could be dealing with interference
from
a loanword.
Somewhere in the past, the word "kateil" was popular in Low German :

Kateil
Wortklasse: Neutrum
Erklärung: Fahrhabe, Vieh, auch (Obst-)Bäume, in der Verbindung beste
kateil
wie Besthaupt.
sprachliche Erläuterung: aus mlat. capitale über afrz. c(h)atel zu mnl.
cat(t)eil, cateel und mnd. kateyl, kateel.

(from
http://www.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de/~cd2/drw/a/K100.htm#KATEIL)..."

You're right Fiete, "kateel" or "kateyl" is the old word for "movable
goods", "property other than real estate", "chattel". The original
meaning
was "property" (~capital) though. Later on, the situation became more
complex as significance ranged from "cattle" to "chattel".
On a more humorous side, this is maybe the major reason why
(semi-)"nomads"
(Buryats, Altais, Kazakh for example) will have serious trouble to
become
true "capitalists" *pun intended* : How on earth should a movable house
(tents like gers, yurts) be registered ? Is it a movable good or real
estate
or both or none of these ??? *s*.

In West-Flemish for example, "kateel" could be used in quite a lot of
contexts (tools, trees, branches of a tree, ornaments of a written
letter,
ornaments on a woman's clothes, badly dressed woman, everything which
can be
inherited (except farmland which always remained property of the liege)
after the death of a vassal). This last meaning brings forth the term
"best(e) kateyl" which is the amount of "debts" that was to be paid to
the
lord (money for the state these days) because somebody has inherited
something, "death duty" (E), "successierechten" (D). In older days the
lord
usually received the best horse, the best cow or the best dress, hence
"Besthaupt" (G). In Brabantish we would reply : "Ge koejnt ne kaar 't
vèl ni
afdoen è", "Ge kunt eene kei het vel niet afdoen", "One cannot strip a
boulder" (E) meaning : If somebody has little or nothing, it's
impossible to
request money".

This word "kateyl" or "kateel" is surely pronounced with the stress on
the
last syllable here in Belgium (because it's a French loanword). My train
of
thought was, if this was also the case in Northern Germany, it might
have
influenced the pronouncing of "kattuul".

The county of Flanders was always much more under French influence than
the
duchy of Brabant during the Middle Ages and so in other regions other
(more
germanic) terms existed : beste hoofd, beste hoofdstoel, hoofdstoel,
hootstoel, hoostoel, hooghstoel...

This brings me to the difference between "peinzen" and "dinken" or
"denken"
(West-Flanders vs. Zeeland eg.). There might have been a struggle
between
these two contenders (not immediately resulting in a semantic shift),
because here in Brabant we have this expression "Ge meugt dinken en
paaze wa
da ge wilt, ..." which reflects that both words were in use at one time
here.

Regarding Danny's remark about "kateie" (= construction in wood or stone
that is meant to reduce the force of the seawaves in Ostend), I can
(unfortunately) only quote what De Bo wrote; he thought both the French
word
"jetée" and the Dutch word "kadijk" (with stress on "dijk") were
responsible. Semantically it's not obvious for me to connect with
"kateil"...maybe, maybe, maybe ??? branches of a tree > same structure
of a
"kateie" forking from a dike ???. Phonetically, there's less objection
because an "l" is usually pronounced quite thinly in West-Flemish, but I
wonder if that's also the case if it's a final consonant.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.08.28 (07) [D/E]

Danny schreef:

> in oostende gebruiken we altijd het woord katteie voor de dijkglooiing
> (het
> stenen gedeelte van de zeedijk).
> sommigen zeggen ook dat de golfbrekers de katteien zijn. Is dit dezelfde
> oorsprong als kateil? - havenhoofd?

Van _katteie_ als golfbreker (Zeeuws: _pael'oôd_)
heb ik nog nooit gehoord, maar het woord katteie
is hier in elk geval ook wel bekend. _Kattegloeiienge_
(kattenglooiing) heeft dezelfde betekenis.
Het is (althans hier) niet zomaar een stenen dijk-
glooiing, maar in het bijzonder het hoogste stuk
daarvan, waar de basaltblokken het kleinst zijn
(ongeveer 30 kilo). Onderaan de _gloeiienge_
liggen stenen van 60 tot 70 kilo.

Groet,

Marco

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================