LL-L "Counting" 2002.12.03 (08) [E]

Tue Dec 3 23:39:06 UTC 2002

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
               V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Lamguage varieties"

> From: Peter <peter.smith100 at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: Old English language
>
> I am conducting research for a book on aspects of North Yorkshire. I have
> been told that, up to the late 1970s, auctioneers at certain beast markets
> in North Yorkshire would shout out the bids using something other than
> modern English - something that the hill farmers could understand. My
> informant told me that the numbers shouted out sounded like Yan, Tan,
> Yinneger, Finniger.

I posted some comments about this in March this year, so
you can read it in the Archives. I can't figure out how
to get the URL for a particular posting, so here's the
relevant part...

<posting>
As for Brythonic (or "Cymric") in Scotland, I was recently
reading an interesting article in the December 1922 edition
of the Transactions of the Rymour Club, Edinburgh.  It was
"Dumfriesshire Rhymes" by Joseph Laing Waugh, who was writer
in Scots and a native of Dumfriesshire. Those who follow this
sort of thing might be interested in reading some of his
assertions about the language in his own locality:

<quote>
It may be interesting to you to know that in counting the
numerals up to ten the shepherds in the hill districts still
use a speech which by experts is said to be the only remnant
left of a distinct language which is known as the Strathclyde
Cymric. The kingdom of Strathclyde in the seventh century
embraced Cumberland, Westmorland, and the shires of Dumfries,
Ayr, Renfrew, Lanark, and Peebles, and sustained with vicissitudes
its national character for fully 400 years. Its inhabitants were
of two varieties of the British race?-the southern half, including
Dumfriesshire, being inhabited by the Cymrie or Welsh the northern
by the Damonii or Cornish. Its two most important towns were
Carlisle in the south and Dumbarton in the north.

        Zeendi, Hecturi,
        Teendi, Zecturi,
        Taedheri,       Aover,
        Mundheri,       Daover,
        Baombe, Dek.

Strange it is that the only fragment of a tongue spoken for so
long over so large a part of the country should survive only on
the lips of shepherds and old knitting women.
</quote>

I don't know where the assertion that the Damonii were Cornish
comes from, but it's certainly interesting to ponder that a form
of Cornish may once have been spoken in Scotland! Can anyone offer
further enlightenment on this?

For comparison, modern Welsh numbers are:

        Un,             Chwech,
        Dau,            Saith,
        Tri,            Wyth,
        Pedwar, Nau,
        Pump,           Deg.

Modern Cornish numbers are (masculine):

        Onen,           Hwegh,
        Dew,            Seyth,
        Tri,            Eth,
        Peswar, Nau,
        Pymp,           Deg.

Two, three and four also have feminine forms diw, teyr, peder,
showing more clearly the affinity with "taedheri".

It's interesting to note that in Cornish there's the distinction
between "onen" = Scots "ane", and "unn" = Scots "ae". Has this
feature come into Scots from the Brythonic substrate?

The above counting system is still found in children's rhymes in
Scotland (or was until very recently?), eg:

Zeenty-peenty, heathery-mithery,
Bumfy leery over dover;
Saw the King o Heazle-Peasil
Jumpin ower Jerusalem Dyke;
   Black fish, white troot,
   Eerie, oorie, you're oot!

This one gets at least as far as nine, but it misses something
on the way!
</posting>

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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From: R. F. Hahn <admin at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Counting

And to add to this:

Proto-Celtic:
1=oinos 2=dvai 3=treis 4=qetveres 5=qenqe 6=svex 7=septn 8=octô 9=nevn
10=decn

Gaulish:
1=ônos 2=duô 3=treis 4=petor 5=pempe 6=suex 7=sextan 8=oxtû 9=navan
10=decam

Devonian (Brythonic):
1 =un 2=deu 3=tri 4=peduar 5=pemp 6=hueh 7=seith 8=eith 9=nau 10=dek

Cf.: other Indo-European equivalents, especially 4:

Classical Greek (Hellenic):
1= hei:s 2=dúo: 3=trei:s 4=téttares 5=pénte 6=héx 7=heptá 8=októ: 9=ennéa
10=déka

Old Prussian (Baltic):
1=ai:ns 2=dwa:i 3=trijan 4=keturja:i 5=pe:nkja:i 6=*usjai 7=*septi:njai
8=*asto:njai 9=*newi:njai 10=desi:mtan

Lithuanian (Baltic):
1=víenas 2=dù 3=try~s 4=keturì 5=penkì 6=sheshì 7=septynì 8=ashtuonì
9=devynì 10=de:shimt

Latvian (Baltic):
1=viêns 2=divi 3=trî:s 4=chetri 5=pìeci 6=seshi 7=septini 8=astôni 9=devini
10=desmit

Prakrit (Indo-Aryan):
1=ekko: 2=do: 3=tao: 4=chatta:ri 5=pañcha 6=ch`a 7=satta 8=atta 9=n.ava
10=dasa

Proto-Indo-Iranian (reconstructed):
1=aiwas 2=dva: 3=trayas 4=k'atwa:ras 5=pank'a 6=(k)swacsh 7=sapta 8=ashta:
9=nawa 10=daca

Indo-European (reconstructed):
1=oynos/sem 2=duwo: 3=treyes 4=kwetwores 5=penkwe 6=sweks 7=septm 8=okto:
9=newn 10=dekm

And to return home ...
Old Germanic (reconstructed):
1=ainaz 2=twai 3=thrijiz 4=fithwor 5=fimfi 6=seks 7=sibum 8=ahto: 9=niwun
10=tehun

Source: http://www.zompist.com/euro.htm#ie

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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