LL-L "Folkore" 2002.12.11 (07) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

This one decided to run away before I could mention the scary guys. RFH
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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Folklore"

> From: RBlaustein at aol.com <RBlaustein at aol.com>
> Subject: Folklore
>
> Lucs question concerning St. Nick vs. Old Nick and the possibility that
> "Nick" derives from cognate Germanic terms for demons, especially water
> spirits reminds us that the Grimms were also great philologists as well as
> collectors of folktales.

I found Richard's comments on spirits by the name of Nick &
variations very interesting. Of course there's the very common
"Auld Nick" in Scots and various other names for the Devil with
the qualifier "Auld", the most general being simply "The Auld
Ane" ("The Old One"). Perhaps this too goes back to Odin - ie,
the God of the old religion, now considered evil?

Another very common name for the Devil in Scots is "Nickie-ben".
Can anyone offer any enlightenment on where the "ben" part comes
from? "Ben" in Scots means "through in another (or the inner)
room", but I can't make sense of it with that meaning in "Nickie-ben".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Like Sandy (above), found Richard's thoughts and observations very
interesting -- even though he attributed Gabriele's question to Luc and
joined the ranks of those that call me "Reinhold" instead of "Reinhard,"
perhaps because I seem more _hold_ ('gracious,' 'well-disposed', 'sweet',
'dear') than "hard" (though little does he know ...).  ;)

We need to bear in mind that in many traditions the kindly figure St. Nick
is accompanied by one or more scary figures, like _Zwarte Piet_ in the
Netherlands, and the German _Weinachtsmann_'s helper Knecht Ruprecht.

Note the following customs in Austria:

<quote>
Customs connected with St. Nicholas are performed on the eve of his feast.
On the evening of December 5th, the bishop and his companion(s) appear
either in the old way (on foot and in small groups) or in more modern
parades (and often on trucks and with many costumed characters, for example
at Laxenburg, Laa an der Thaya and Wolkersdorf, Lower Austria, or at
Innsbruck-Hötting in Tyrol). These big public parades are recent
developments, probably influenced by the Nicholas traditions of the
Netherlands. Nicholas pageants, combined with plays or at least scenes, can
be found at Matrei (Tyrol) under the name "Klaubaufgehen", at Oberdrauburg
(Carinthia) as "Bartel-Lauf" ("Bartel" being one of the many names for the
devil characters accompanying St. Nicholas), at Haimburg (Carinthia), at Bad
Mitterndorf (Styria) and at St. Roman and Windischgarsten (Upper Austria). A
strange masked figure called "Thomasnikolo" (Tom Nicholas) is known only at
Gams near Hieflau (Styria) and appears on December 21st, the feast of St.
Thomas, and shows the interlinking of mid-winter customs which, e.g., moved
St. Nicholas to Christmas Eve as Santa Claus in the traditions of
English-speaking nations.

The "Wild Hunt" ("Wildes Gjaid") of the Untersberg roams the streets of
Salzburg on the second Thursday in Advent, the masked men representing
characters of local folk legends.

</quote>

(http://www.anto.com/artikel3.html)

Richard mentioned the _Pelznickel_.  Aren't those the scary mummers that
cleanse houses of evil spirits in the Alemannic areas?  (The wear costumes
that are like _Pelz_ 'fur', are _zottig_ 'shaggy'.)  It seems to me that
lots of pre-Christian trolls and the like somehow got mixed up with the
devil.

And names of for the devil in Sussex:

<quote>

Some people in Sussex used to refer to the Devil as "He" since it was bad
luck to speak the Devil's name. For those who didn't hold this superstition,
there were several names that the Devil went by. An old name for part of the
ramparts of Devil's Dyke Camp is the" Poor Man's Wall", Poor Man being one
of many names for the Devil, others include Old Nick, Old Scratch, Old Man,
Old Harry, Naughty Man, Old Grim and Mr. Grimm. These names echo the
ridicule the Devil has to suffer in the legends associated with him. In
addition to these, the name Beelzebub is used in the Sussex Mummers Play and
there may be a link with the name Puck, more readily associated with
fairies. A companion for Satan also gets a mention, going under the name of
"Dame Dark".

</quote>

(http://www2.prestel.co.uk/aspen/sussex/devil.html#main8)

Obviously, these names are all taboo name replacements (which I find a very
interesting topic in itself).

I assume that of all religious and mythological figures, that of the devil
is the most tabooized and thus has the largest number of replacement names.

Grimm wrote an entire chapter about that (here in English:
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/grimmst/03301.html).

Is not the Yiddish name _shed_ (one of several) for the devil a shortened
version of _sheytan_ ('Satan'), or does it have a different etymology?

I also remember vaguely that the weird-sounding German phrase (_wo der
Bartel den Most herholt_, as in _Geh dahin, wo der Bartel den Most herholt!_
telling someone to get lost), which sounds like "where Bartel (=
Bartholomew) fetches/gets the cider (from)", goes back to the now extinct
social fringe jargon Rotwelsch, where _Most_ comes from Yiddish _maos_ or
_mos_ (< Hebrew _ma'oth_ 'small coins') and Bartel may be derived from one
of the devil's names (thus, "where the devil gets (the) money"?).

Getting back to what Richard and Sandy talked about, consider this Old Saxon
(8-9th cent.) baptismal oath (under "Low Saxon" at
http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/, with English, Dutch, German and Russian
translations so far) in which Germanic gods are characterized as demons:

A: forsaichistu diobolae?
B: ec forsacho diobolae.
A: end allum diobolgelde?
B: end ec forsacho allum diobolgeldae.
A: end allum dioboles uuercum?
B: end ec forsacho allum dioboles uuercum and uuordum, Thunaer ende Uuoden
ende Saxnote ende allvm them unholdum the hira genotas sint.
A: gelobeistu in got alamehtigan fadaer?
B: ec gelobo in got alamehtigan fadaer.
A: gelobeistu in Crist gotes suno?
B: ec gelobo in Crist gotes suno.
A: gelobeistu in halogan gast?
B: ec gelobo in halogan gast

A: Do you forsake the devil?
B: I (do) forsake the devil.
A: And all devil worship?
B: And I (do) forsake all devil worship.
A: And all the devil’s works?
B: And I (do) forsake all the devil’s works and words, Donar and Wotan
(Odin) and Saxnot and all those demons that are their companions.
A: Do you believe in God, the Almighty Father?
B: I (do) believe in God, the Almighty Father.
A: Do you believe in Christ, the Son of God?
B: I (do) believe in Christ, the Son of God.
A: Do you believe in the Holy Ghost?
B: I (do) believe in the Holy Ghost.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: A demon (and 'evil-doer') is referred to as _unhold_, thus the
opposite of _hold_ (as in "Reinhold," see above).

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