LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (02) [E]

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From: corber <corber at shaw.ca>
Subject: re legislating language

In my last mail I should have stated that "some" Mennonites churches adhere
to the German language to this day...instead of saying that "they adhere to
to this day"  Cornelius Bergen

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From: Penny S. Tipper <pst at uvic.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Language change" 2002.12.18 (09) [E]

    "'Moelleken describes the High German of the Mennonites as a radical
departure from standard German.  He labels it 'Mennonitisches
Standard-deutsch,' and thereafter refers to is at MSD at its best, and as
'Dummy High' at its most disfunctional.'  ... I have heard all of Epp's
examples in the slopbucket Deutsch spoken in central Kansas.  We would be
better off retaining our ancestral Plautdietsch.  I  say "we" because I am
one of them."
    -  Jim Krause (probably should be Kruse)

Just wondering about the term "slopbucket Deutsch" -- with languages
constantly evolving, couldn't "MSD" eventually become an official language
in its own right, deserving every bit of respect?  Perhaps it's a different
case in that it isn't anyone's mother tongue, but just the funny way you
talk to your Prediger (just guessing here).  I must say, as a long-time
student of German and its all Adjektive-Endungen fun, my first impression of
Dutch was, This must be some kind of sloppy, cheater-German.  What about the
sacred trinity of Der-Die-Das?  What about that?  De..het?  I didn't get it.
But as I delve deeper into Dutch, I'm getting to learn its special charm..
kennen.  Ha!

Back to the topic of language change, I'd like to know if the Low Saxon
Plautdietsch spoken in Northern Germany is
identical/similar/mutually-comprehensible to/with the Plautdietsch of
Mennonites in the Canadian Prairie and elsewhere.  I've become interested in
the language and wish to study it, but all the websites I have found for it
deal with what is spoken in Germany.

I have, however, read reports that state the language is generally in great
danger of extinction in all Mennonite communities in the Americas, except
for those in South America.  Is the same true in Germany?  Either way,
here's a website I came across, explaining, auf deutsch, many fascinating
intricacies of the efficient "plattdüütsch" expression.  I found to be a lot
of fun:
http://www.beepworld.de/members18/goldbuett/norddeutscheart.htm

mfg, Penny S. Tipper (I hope I didn't mess up too bad on my first post!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language policies

Cornelius, it seems to me that the only difference between "conservative"
Mennonite communities and other Protestant communities of what are now
Northern Germany and the northern and eastern parts of the Netherlands is
that the mentioned Mennonite church elders have not *changed* the language
policies.  The policies used to be the same, and Mennonites of "Western
Prussia" had only adapted to what then was pretty much the law of the land
(with little or no separation between church and state).

In Northern Germany, "Low German" -- which includes the Saxon-derived
dialects (the ones we here call "Low[lands] Saxon") as well as a small group
of Low Frankish dialects that are closer to Limburgish but happen to be used
on the German side of the German-Belgian-Netherlands border -- came to be
pretty much outlawed in administration and churches, certainly by the early
18th century.  Those for whom it was the native and only language would thus
have to rely on the kindness of neighbors, administrators or pastors to help
them understand what was going on "higher up."  Those few children from
poorer homes that did attend schools got their native language beaten out of
them, also by pastors during confirmation lessons (and this well into the
20th century).  Children from "better" homes usually were more exposed to
"good" (i.e., "high") German and thus had an edge over their poorer
classmates.  "High" German thus came to be associated with higher status,
refinement and anything "legitimate."  This came to be adopted in churches,
despite the fact that Martin Luther, the father of Protestantism, had
expressly ordered translations and services in the language of the Saxons in
Saxon lands, and that many or most parishioners did not fully understand
scriptures and sermons in "High" German.  (This also happened in
Slavonic-speaking areas, such as in Zhorjelc/Görlitz, the then capital of
Sorbian-speaking Lusatia, which consequetly quickly came to be lost to
Lusatia.)  I believe that things were pretty much the same in the
Netherlands where "good Dutch" was shoved down the throats of non-Dutch
speakers in a similar manner.

Things changed in the late 19th century, certainly in the 20th century, when
in the wake of alternative philosophies (including atheism) competing with
Christianity many members of the Protestant (and to a degree Catholic)
clergy began to rethink the church's language policy.  They would first
speak with their parishioners in the Saxon dialects in private, and little
by little Saxon-speaking services or at least sermons came to be introduced,
usually on an occasional or alternative basis and with a minimum of
attention "higher up."  Success soon convinced parishes and bishops that
this was a beneficial strategy.  (Even now, even many people who do not have
Lowlands Saxon as their native language like to attend "Platt" services,
especially during the Chrismas season.)  However, by the time this was
happening, most Mennonites (who descended from Frisians, Dutch, and Low
Saxons [from both the Netherlands and Germany]) had already left their
temporary homeland at the Vistula delta for "New Russia" (i.e., Ukraine) and
for the "New World," and when this new movement in the West was gathering
speed, many Mennonites had been shipped off to Siberia and Central Asia.  In
relative isolation some of their communities clung to the old attitude and
policies according to which it would be offensive to God to be addressed in
the supposedly coarse native language the parishioners.

There are two special, remarkable phenomena in the case of Mennonites
outside Germany:

(1) While Saxon speakers in Germany have been constantly exposed to German
and have been (directly or indirectly) forced to learn and use it to
survive, Mennonites elsewhere were and are under no such obligation, being
instead surrounded by speakers of Russian, Ukrainian, Kazakh, Kyrghyz,
Uzbek, English, Spanish or Portuguese.  They thus carried German with them
in addition to their native language, using and preserving their brand of
German as what in Yiddish is known as _loshn koydesh_ (< Hebrew _lashon
kodesh_ 'sacred tongue') with reference to Hebrew, using it only for
religious purposes (including oratory).  In contrast, ever since their land
came under German and Dutch domination, to speakers of Lowlands Saxon in
Germany and the Netherlands German and Dutch respectively have been the
languages of authority, and organized religion is merely a part of this
package.  Besides, while secular authorities have proved to be anything but
sympathetic and helpful to the survival struggle of minority languages
(stalling and sabotaging European Charter ratification efforts even now that
these languages been officially recognized under European Union pressure),
some churches have been the only places of authority in which the language
of the land has a place and gets some respect.

(2) While I can understand why some Mennonite communities preserved this
linguistic stratefication or compartmentalization, what really interests me
is what provoked other communities to pretty much abandon German and use
predominantly Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (_Plautdietsch_).  Did they simply
find it too burdensome to deal with German (the native language of none of
them) in addition to their own and that of their new countries?  Did they
arrive at the conclusion independently that the language of the people ought
also be the language of their churches, or were they inspired by others,
such as other minority groups in their new countries or indeed by the
movement in Germany?

This movement in Northern Germany culminated in the foundation of Plattform
"Plattdüütsch in de Kark", an association that advocates the use of "Platt"
in churches:

http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/europe_religious.htm,
http://www.zfn-ratzeburg.de/pd_in_de_kark.htm

Lönsweg 28
D-29614 Salta/Soltau
Germany

Its long-time president, Hein(rich) Kröger (both a pastor and a professor),
has studied the history of this movement and published his findings of which
he recently sent me a copy:

Kröger, Heinrich, _Plattdüütsch in de Kark in drei Jahrhunderten, Bd.1, 18.
und 19. Jahrhundert_, Hannover: Luther Verlag, 1996, ISBN 3785907222

I think it would be very interesting to include Mennonite information in
this sort of study.

Penny, welcome to the List, neighbor (in this case "neighbour")!  (I am in
Seattle.)  No, you did not mess up at all.  Congratulations!  You are one of
few "newbies" who got everything right the first time.

You asked:

> Back to the topic of language change, I'd like to know if the Low Saxon
> Plautdietsch spoken in Northern Germany is
> identical/similar/mutually-comprehensible to/with the Plautdietsch of
> Mennonites in the Canadian Prairie and elsewhere.  I've become interested
in
> the language and wish to study it, but all the websites I have found for
it
> deal with what is spoken in Germany.

I can really only answer for myself.  Coming from the angle of Northern
Lowlands Saxon (Neddersassisch ~ Nedderdüütsch ~ Plattdüütsch) of Northern
Germany I have hardly any problems understanding Mennonite Lowlands Saxon
(Plautdietsch).  This is partly due to the reason that speakers of both LS
and German in Germany are used to the "eastern shifts," such as g > j, ü >
ie and ö > e, in both LS and German dialects (though younger Germans are not
used to them as much as most displaced citizens from what are now Poland and
Russia have passed away).  The only two features that gave me minor problems
at first were the shifts e > a, and a > au, strangely only in written form,
not when I listened to the dialects (which may or may not be a red flag to
show that there is an orthographic stumbling block).  Another reason why
Plautdietsch is relatively easy to understand for Germans is that it seems
to have far more ("High") German loanwords than have the LS dialects of
Germany (not to mention those of the Netherlands).  Some years ago, I
introduced Reuben Epp (Canada) and Clara Kramer-Freudenthal (Germany) to
each other (via email).  Tant Clara wrote to me saying that she had no
problems understanding what Reuben wrote in Plautdietsch.  I do not really
know if communication was as easy when Reuben and Irmgard visited Clara and
Heinz in Norderstedt.  (Perhaps Reuben can tell us this.)  As for Reuben, we
ought not be surprised that he understands the other LS dialects very well,
since he is very learned in this area and has been dealing with the language
for a long time, being one of few who has dared to go beyond Plautdietsch to
deal with the entire language (and he no doubt has profited from it).  Some
Plautdietsch speakers have told me that they have some problems reading LS
dialects other than their own.  This is clearly due to a lack of exposure
and awareness of the sound shifts, as well as lack of familiarity with Saxon
words that Plautdietsch has replaced with German (or Russian, English,
Spanish or other) loans.  I feel confident that continual exposure to each
other's dialects will gradually remove these barriers.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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