LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.02.22 (06) [E]

Fri Feb 22 17:28:04 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.FEB.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Wim & Sonja" <wim.sonjaverdoold at home.nl>
Subject: question: i miss two languages, : letzeburgisch and yiddisch.

Hi,

Are you going to do something about letseburgisch, and Yiddish? If High German
is on the list, these two should
also be there I think?

Some tips for those who like to play with languages:

http://www.zjzmpop.co.yu/

this link brings you to a site wher you can down load proofing tools for
free!! They work, I use them in office 2000.
for german dutch and Swedish.

http://www.learndutch.org/

A link to a site wich can help you to learn dutch.

Wim & Sonja

wkv at home.nl

www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Wim & Sonja,

German is *not* included in Lowlands-L.

Let me quote from our homepage
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/):

<quote>

Lowlands languages" are those Germanic languages that developed in the
"Lowlands": the low-lying areas adjacent to the North Sea and the Baltic Sea.
These are primarily Dutch, Zeelandic (Zeeuws, West Flemish), Frisian,
Limburgish and Low Saxon (Low German).* Also included are those languages that
descended from autochtonous Lowlands languages and are used elsewhere; for
example, Afrikaans, Emigré Dutch/Frisian/Low Saxon, Lowlands-based pidgins and
creoles, and also English and Scots.** "Lowlands cultures" are those cultures
that utilize Lowlands languages or are clearly derived from such cultures.
__________
* German ("High German") is not included here. However, "Lowlandic" influences
on and relations with German are frequently discussed on Lowlands-L, as are
Northern Germany's German dialects that have Low Saxon (Low German) substrates
("Missingsch").
* "Scots" does not refer to Gaelic (i.e., the Celtic language of the Scottish
Highlands) but to the Germanic language of the Scottish Lowlands, a language
that is closely akin to but separate from English (including Scottish
English).

</quote>

The crucial part here is "that developed in the "Lowlands."  When Henk Wolf
and I first developed the idea of starting Lowlands-L (at the end of 1994 or
in the beginning of 1995), among our main considerations were (1) to deal with
the Inveonic or part-Ingveonic Germanic languages, and (2) to focus on the
"Lowlands" as the homeland and source of a specific group or of a specific
continuum of linguistic and cultural varieties.  We also had in mind to allow
Low Saxon ("Low German," most of whose speakers live in Northern Germany) to
be featured in its own right, not as a negligible appendage to and
overshadowed by "High" German, and to focus on Low Saxon within the context of
its sister languages Dutch, Flemish, Zeelandic, Afrikaans, etc., rather than
as a "German language" as is usually done.  It is true that German and Yiddish
tend to be included under "West Germanic," but they certainly constitute a
separate group, which some now consider "South Germanic" (justifiably so, in
my personal opinion).

Also, already at that time, there were several online discussion groups
devoted to German and to Germanic as a group, also one devoted to Yiddish
("Mendele," to which I subscribe).  Also, there were groups dedicated to
Dutch.  However, there were none for Low Saxon and other the Lowlands language
varieties, and we wanted to make ours group-specific, not language-specific,
to remind speakers and learners how closely related these varieties are, in
fact mutually intelligible to varying degrees.

As for Luxemburgish (Letzëbuergesh), it has been suggested twice that we
include it, but each time the membership voted against it because the language
variety has a lot of "High" features, far more than has Limburgish (e.g.,
_ich_ for _ik_) which *was* included as marginal after some deliberation and
voting.

I am not sure what made you think that German *is* included.  Is it because we
deal with "Low Saxon (Low German)"?  If so, please do not be confused by the
(in my opinion unfortunate) use of "German" in this context.  This language,
descended from Old Saxon, is separate from German and is now officially
recognized as a regional language in Northern Germany and as "Nedersaksisch"
in the eastern provinces of the Netherlands.  Is it because we occasionally
post things in German?  If so, please bear in mind that you can post in any
language you wish, in Basque, Zulu, Inuqtitut or Khmer for all I care (though
you would run into problems with those that use other scripts if most
subscribers do not have the corresponding fonts, apart from the fact that most
subscribers would not understand you).

<quote>

There is free choice of language in Lowlands-L postings, but the following
language varieties are preferred: Afrikaans, Dutch, Zeelandic, Limburgish,
Frisian (any variety), Low Saxon, English and Scots.

</quote>

It is perfectly fine to discuss German, Pennsylvania German, Yiddish,
Luxemburgish, etc., and we often do.  You are also welcome to discuss matters
related to the North Germanic languages and cultures, which we often do, such
as in etymological discussions or in discussions about Low Saxon loans in
Scandinavian or about West-Germanic-like features in Southern Jutish.
However, such discussions must be relevant to discussions about Lowlands
varieties and must be intended to help us in dealing with our own focus.

I hope that this has clarified it for you.

I appreciate your interest and would like to welcome you to Lowlands-L.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Oh, and thanks for the resource tips.

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