LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.02.23 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 23.FEB.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Aviad Stier" <aviad2001 at hotmail.com>
Subject: pronouns

Ted harding wrote:
>Folks,
>In the dialect of the area of East Anglia where I live
>(North Cambridgeshire, West Norfolk, and probably further
>afield), it is common to use "that" where "it" would
>normally be used in standard English (i.e. with a purely
>referential, and not an indicative or demonstrative function).>

This reminds me of the strange system in French, where they use "ce"
("this"
or "it" or je-ne-sais-quoi) to refer to a noun that has been mentioned
before:
Person A: "Jean est un bon garc,on"
Person B: "Oui, c'est un bon garc,on."
("John is a good boy", "Yes, this is a good boy").
Not exactly the same as your dialect, of course, but then, French
doesn't
really have a "that" as in "That is a pen" (well, they have c,a but it's
not
used that way).
Aviad Stier
Brussels/Bruxelles

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Pronouns

I wrote:

> Yes, that (it?) is certainly the case in most Northern and Northeastern
> dialects of Low Saxon (Low German).  While most Westphalian and
> Eastphalian and also some Northern and Eastern dialects retain old _it_
> or _et_ for 'it' and some also as the neuter-gender definite article, in
> the dialects in question this pronoun has been replaced by _dat_, which
> also still means neuter-gender, thus including impersonal, 'that'.
>
> Thus, ...
>
> >   "Wintry today!" said I.
> >   "That certainly is" said he.
>
> "Wint(e)rig vundaag' (~ hüüt)!" see(d') ik.
> "Dat is dat wahrhaftig," see(d') he.
>
> ("That is that truly/indeed/certainly.")  The first _dat_ refers to the
> condition (being wintry), and the second _dat_ replaces impersonal
> _it_~_et_ (which could also stand for neuter-gender _Wedder_ 'weather',
> i.e., _dat Wedder_ 'the weather').

All of this, using _das_ in place of _das_ and _es_, also applies in
Missingsch dialects (German dialects on Low Saxon substrates) of areas
in which that type of Low Saxon dialect is or used to be used:

>   "Wintry today!" said I.
>   "That certainly is" said he.

"Winter(l)ig heute!" habb ich gesaacht.*
"Das is das weaklich (~ auch)," hadd äa gesaacht.*

(* As also in many Low Saxon dialects, the preterite is rarely or never
used; the past perfect predominates.)

Cf. Standard German:

"Winterlich heute!" sagte ich.
"Das ist es wirklich (~ auch)," sagte er.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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