LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.02.24 (04) [E]

Sun Feb 24 20:33:43 UTC 2002

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From: Rudi Vari <rudi at its.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.02.23 (02) [E]

Hi all Lowlanders

Ted Harding wrote:

> Folks,
> In the dialect of the area of East Anglia where I live
> (North Cambridgeshire, West Norfolk, and probably further
> afield), it is common to use "that" where "it" would
> normally be used in standard English (i.e. with a purely
> referential, and not an indicative or demonstrative function).
>
> Examples:
>
> Meeting someone in the local village street today:--
>    "Wintry today!" said I.
>    "That certainly is" said he.
>
> Or:--
>    "I called my dog into the house and that just sat
>     there. That took no notice of me at all."
>
> Question: Does the equivalent of "that" get used in
> a similar way (instead of the equivalent of "it") in
> other L-L langauges/dialects?
>
> Maybe it's an archaic usage (the back of my mind suggests
> I may have heard it in American speech as well).
>
> Best wishes to all,
> Ted.

I remember an expression that my parents used to use: "Dat zit er maar
te
zitten". This would refer to a person in a derogatory (depersonalised)
sense, implying no get up and go, or no desire/initiative to do anything
positive.

Does this fall in the same class as Ted's observation?

Although I am largely a lurker, I still enjoy most of what happens on
this
list, but I must be honest: when Ron and co. use the more technical
syntax,
I am totally lost.

Kind regards to you all, especially Ron (Reinhard)
Rudi Vári

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From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.02.23 (05) [E]

Good morning.

The same applies for Swedish:

 Det är kalt idag. It is cold today.

Maybe the use of that, instead of it has to do with the Danish influence
on
English dialects. I heard people from Yorkshire do strange Danish thing
to
their English too.

I checked my Swedish spelling with a proofing tool I picked up on this
site:
http://www.zjzmpop.co.yu/
Proofing tools for free, I use them, they work.
Wim Verdoold

wkv at home.nl

www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/

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From: "Colin Wilson" <lcwilson at starmail.com>
Subject: LL-L

>From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
>Subject: "Pronouns"

>The most natural way to say "It certainly is" in Scots
>would be "It is that". The emphasis (or sentence stress)
>is on the word "that" in this sentence - I don't think any
>intensifier corresponding to "certainly" would be used. So
>to translate Ted's example into Scots:

In the north-east, you can also say "fairlie that", without the "it is".

>"Lik winter the day!" says I.
>"Fairlie that!" says he.

Colin Wilson.

----------

From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.02.23 (03) [E]

Sandy wrote:

>Just for information or completeness, I don't think the
>phenomenon Ted has raised would occur in Scots at all.
>
>The most natural way to say "It certainly is" in Scots
>woould be "It is that". The emphasis (or sentence stress)
>is on the word "that" in this sentence - I don't think any
>intensifier corresponding to "certainly" would be used. So
>to translate Ted's example into Scots:
>
>> >   "Wintry today!" said I.
>> >   "That certainly is" said he.
>>
>> "Wint(e)rig vundaag' (~ ht)!" see(d') ik.
>> "Dat is dat wahrhaftig," see(d') he.
>
>"Like winter the day!" says I.
>"It is that," says he.
>
For the sake of interest, again, the Shetlandic can have a different
word order:

'He's laek winter da day,' I says.
'Dat he is,' he says.

(Also, weather is usually referred to as 'he', just as in the North East
of Scotland is is often 'she', or even with the otherwise obsolete form
'sho' - 'sho's caal' = It's cold.)

The fact that the word 'certainly', or an equivalent, is not used in the
Scots raises an important point with regard to Scots prose writing. The
sort of Scots one often sees written - translated word for word from a
(mental or written) English original - loses all of the native nuances
of the language by substituting standard English forms.

My favourite example from Shetlandic is that, in Shetlandic, the word
'please' can scarcely be said to exist. But this does not mean that
Shetlanders are rude. They express the same meaning by use of different
verb forms, e.g.:

Can du help me ta caa da crui da morn? - Can you help me to round up the
sheep tomorrow?

Coud du a helpit me tae a caad da crui da morn - Can you please help me
to round up the sheep tomorrow?

caa - to drive
crui [kr2:] - a sheep pen

Similar constructions no doubt exist in many forms of English, but in
the standard language have probably been superseded by the obligatory
use of 'please'.

John M. Tait.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Pronouns

Wim wrote above:

> The same applies for Swedish:

>  Det är kalt idag. It is cold today.

This is because the Scandinavian languages, like many dialects of Low
Saxon (Low German), use the same word for the neuter ("common gender" in
Scandinavian terminology) 'it', 'that' and 'the', where this _det_ is
used impersonally.  I do not think that this is due to Low Saxon
influence, because I believe this is the case also in Modern and Old
Icelandic (_það_).

> Maybe the use of that, instead of it has to do with the Danish influence
> on English dialects.

An interesting theory.  Would we then not also expect it in Scots,
especially in Shetlandic?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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