LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.02.24 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 24.FEB.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Jan Strunk" <strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de>
Subject: LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.02.24 (04) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

Ron wrote in reply to Wim:
> > The same applies for Swedish:
>
> >  Det är kalt idag. It is cold today.
>
> This is because the Scandinavian languages, like many dialects of Low
> Saxon (Low German), use the same word for the neuter ("common gender"
> in
> Scandinavian terminology) 'it', 'that' and 'the', where this _det_ is
> used impersonally.  I do not think that this is due to Low Saxon
> influence, because I believe this is the case also in Modern and Old
> Icelandic (_það_).
All the Scandinavian languages seem to have replaced the original
personal pronoun paradigm for the 3. Sg. Neuter with the
demonstrative paradigm. Otherwise, the 3. Sg. Neuter Nominative
would probably be something like * et (?) (as Gothic ita).
Does anyone know why this replacement occured?
That would also be relevant to the Lowlandic languages as this change
has taken or is taking place in some languages like Northern Low Saxon.
One possibility would be that *et has once existed in Old Norse but then
was reduced phonologically so much that it had to be replaced.
Dutch, High German and Low Saxon het, es, et/it respectively are
well on their way to become or already are clitics, i.e. they are
phonologically reduced to 't and have a special syntactic and semantic
behaviour.
Something like this could obviously also have happened in the
Scandinavian languages.
Another possibility could be that when Germanic began using personal
pronouns more often, North Germanic already used the
"that"-demonstrative
for 3.Sg. as it did for 3. Pl.. One should probably check the oldest
runic inscriptions (although they might not contain many pronouns at
all).

Just some thoughts. So if I am totally wrong, I am waiting for
enlightment
:-).

Guedgaon,

Jan Strunk
strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Pronouns

Thanks, Jan!

So am I right when I hear you say you assume the North Germanic and West
Germanic developments to be independent from each other?  Or do you
think this could also be a case of spread (northward or southward),
considering that the same type of neuter pronoun replacement in West
Germanic is strongest in *North* Saxon (not so much or not all all on
Westphalian and Eastphalian and in the southern dialects of North
Saxon)?  Of course, North Saxon borders on Southern Jutish and Danish.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================