LL-L "Expressions" 2002.02.28 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.FEB.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Expressions

I wrote:

> >Many people in Germany using Low Saxon now say and write _bitte_
> >'please'.  This is undoubtedly a German loan, for _bitte_ comes from
> >_ich bitte_ 'I beg/request', and that would be _(ik) be(ed')_ in Low
> >Saxon_, which is used when this is meant literally (e.g., _Ik be(ed')
> >di_ 'I beg of you'), not in the sense of polite 'please' in either a
> >request or in reply to "thank you" (i.e., "You are welcome," "Don't
> >mention it") which, to the best of my knowledge, has no native
> >equivalent.  Like in John Magnus' Shetlandic equivalent, you would
> >phrase it differently:
> >
> >Kannst mi morgen bi 't Tohoopdrieven (vun de Schaap) helpen?
> >Can you help me to round up (the sheep) tomorrow?
> >
> >Kannst maal so good wesen un mi morgen bi 't Tohoopdrieven (vun de
> >Schaap) helpen?
> >Can you please help me to round up (the sheep) tomorrow?
> >
> >Thus, in this case, _so good wesen un ..._ ("to be so good (= kind) and
> >...") expresses what in German is _bitte_ and in English is "please".
> >It may also stand at the beginning of a request: _Wees' so good, (un)
> >..._ ("Be so good, (and) ..._).
> >
> >Of course, this is very much like in Scandinavian:
> >
> >Danish: (vær så god >) værs'go' (og)
> >Norwegian (Bokmål): vær så god (og)
> >Swedish: var så god (och)

John Magnus responded:

> Of course, it is possible in English to express degrees of politeness -
> e.g.
>
> Get that book.
> Get that book, please.
> Could you get that book (please)?
> You couldn't get that book, (please) could you?
>
> I suppose that social pressure for demonstrable and teachable politeness
> has resulted in associating politeness exclusively with the use of
> 'please', and thus impoliteness with its omission - a sort of blunt
> instrument approach to language. This same desire to be polite is of
> course
> the reason often given for the abandonment of all speech forms other than
> the standard, with the inverse corollary that Scots is valued (largely by
> a
> middle-class urban intelligentsia who do not speak it themselves)
> precisely
> because it is perceived as being impolite. In fact, of course, the
> perception of Scots as impolite merely demonstrates the paucity of their
> experience of it. Almost everything said about Scots within literary and
> academic circles is essentially from an external viewpoint.
>
> Interesting that what is a non-standard use (from the German point of
> view)
> in Low Saxon is the standard usage in the Scandinavian languages. Shows
> how
> relative such things are.

Thanks for sharing your interesting thoughts on this matter, John Magnus.

Actually, German too has equivalent expressions in requests, such as _Sei so
gut/nett/lieb und ..._ (familiar), _Seien Sie so gut/nett/lieb und ..._
(deferential), _... wenn du so gut/nett/lieb wärest_ (fam.), _... wenn Sie so
gut/nett/lieb wären_, _... wenn es Ihnen nichts ausmacht, ..._.  Unlike
_bitte_ in most contexts, these convey a politely and genuinely requesting
tone, much like English non-sarcastic "if you would be so kind" and "if you
would't mind."  German _bitte_, like English _please_, may soften a request or
command in many cases, but oftentimes they are just added because people have
been taught to "say please and thank you" as children, and these expressions
carry little meanings.  In fact, they can even be used to add sarcastic or
cutting meaning to denote something like "you'd better ..." or "you have no
choice but to ..." or impatience/last warning (when emphasized), e.g., _Would
you *please* take out the garbage ... *now*?"  Note also, _if you don't mind_
as a sarcastic or warning device (e.g., _Take your feet off the back of my
chair, if you don't mind!_).

Low Saxon (Low German) -- and I assume the same applies to Scots -- lacks
most, if not all, such polite phrases whose original meanings (_bitte_ < _ich
bitte dich_ "I beg of you," _please_ < _if it would please you_) have pretty
much fallen by the wayside, though some Low Saxon speakers in Germany now use
_bitte_.  My feeling is that when a Low Saxon speaker in Germany says _Wees so
good/leev ..._ he or she really means it to express "be so kind ..."  Without
it you express a command or a request, in which case the tone signals the
difference.  It is also my impression that the (derived?) Scandinavian literal
equivalents of _Wees so good_ ...

Danish: (vær så god >) værs'go' (og)
Norwegian (Bokmål): vær så god (og)
Swedish: var så god (och)

... have, by and large, gone the way of _bitte_ and _please_.  Incidentally,
they are also used as replies to the equivalents of "thank you," much like
German _bitte_.  As far as I know, Low Saxon of Germany does not have such a
device, though many people would probably say _bitte_ these days.  Originally
there probably was no reply, except maybe something like _heff ik geern daan_
("I did it with pleasure," "I didn't mind doing it") in response to thanks for
a big favor rendered.  To ask for a big favor, i.e., to use something even
stronger than _Wees so good_, you would probably say something like _Ik
wöör(d') di groten Dank weten, wenn ..._ ("I would know you great thank if
..." = 'I'd be very grateful to you for ...')

Having "grown up" with British and Australian English where responses to
"Thank you" such as "You're welcome" and "Don't mention it" are ordinary, I
was at first a bit lost in American circles where responses like "Sure
(thing)" and "You bet" are normal and my "You're welcome" and "Don't mention
it" met with fleetingly astonished looks (until the listener remembered that I
"wasn't from around here"), probably sounding super-polite, formal and
old-fashioned.  "You bet" was very strange to me at first, especially when a
few weeks after my arrival in the States I thanked a friendly, middle-aged,
"down-to-earth" woman for a favor she had done me and she answered "You bet
your sweet petootie, honey!"

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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