LL-L "Orthography" 2002.01.28 (04) [S]

Mon Jan 28 19:41:58 UTC 2002

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JAN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Orthography"

> From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at altavista.net>
> Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.01.24 (04) [E]

Help ma boab! I thocht I'd pit up a site tae lairn fowk Scots
grammar an aabody's lairnin _me_!

I shuppit thon vowel cairt bi daein it first for ma ain
dialeck an syne gaun throu the SND tae phonetics tae see
what adjustments haed tae be made tae mak it general, but
it's leukin like I missed some important pynts - no that
surprisin wi the wye the SND gies muckle lists o aa kin o
subtle vowel variants fae the different dialecks.

I'll hae tae print aa this oot that ye've explained an
gang ower the SND again wi'd an see what I can lairn
atween the twa.

Here twathree pynts the while, tho...

> The vowel at I'v written /O/ - the COT vowel - merges wi /o/ in maist
> Central dialects, an this laeds fowk frae thareaboot (e.g. Billy Kay in
> his The Mither Tongue) ti regaird it as a English affectation. But
> Johnston shaws at the'r a disteenction atween COT an COAT type words in
> monie Scots dialects - "However, there are dialects on all four sides of
> the Central Belt which still keep the distinction intact and have an A2
> vowel." The disteenction micht be [o]/[o:] or somethin like that, but
> for a phonemic transcription o Scots as a hale, /O/ dis as weel as
> oniething.

This is new tae me - I ken fine aboot dialecks wi /O/ but I
didna ken this sindered the likes o "cot" an "coat" (in my
dialeck "coat" is whiles sayed lang, but aften short - I dout
this is a SVLR effeck - "cot" is aye sayed short, but the'r
nae differ in the quality o the vowels).

I howp ye're no lumpin me thegither wi aa thae ither "Central"
bodies - I can see a stime or twa every noos an thans!

> Is it different frae the SSD realisation o English /a:/? In ither words,
> wad a Scots speaker frae your airt say 'hand' different whan he's
> speakin Scots frae whan he's speakin English? I say 'hand' the same in
> English, Scots an Shetlandic - approx [hA:nd]. The vowel is baith faurer
> back an langer nor the vowel in, e.g. cat [kat].

I canna richt answer this kin o question. On the tae haun,
fowk fae my airt disna spaek English tae me, an on the tither,
I mysel uise a airtifeecial kin o accent for English, sae it
winna tell ye muckle anent Scottish-English pronoonciation. I
div soond the /a:/ mairt forrit in English than in Scots, tho.

> Whit wey duis Shetlandic hae [a], than? Coud be frae the Norse, I
> suppose.
>
> (I'm a bittie suspeecious o wytin the Gaelic - seems ti me ti be a Aunt
> Sally, whiles. The war a airticle I read at wytit the want o _thir_ an
> _thae_ in Northern dialects ti the Gaelic, but whit wey wad Shetlandic
> no hae thaim, than?  I can haurdly think ye coud wyte that ti the Norse
> - Auld Norse haes demonstratives for the plural, cases an aa.

Thae's aa interestin questions - I've been thinkin a bittie
on the effecks o substrates on Scots, ever fae somebody on
the list (wha wis't?) suggestit that Scots verb concord micht
derive fae Brythonic. For a peety, I juist kens modern Welsh
an the praisent tense is formed wi a auxiliary, sae that tells
me naething athoot leukin intae Auld Brythonic itssel, an I
hinna could finnd onything uisefu aboot it. Syne ower the New
Year I fand a auld magazine whaur J B Salmond (that wrate the
"Robbie Doo" beuks) haes a airticle anent Brythonic influences
on bairns rhymes in Scots - I'd noticed afore that some bairns
rhymes in Scots seems tae uise Welsh numbers. Onywey, I'll
write that up on the list whan I've the time.

> This disna answer the question o chuisin whit wey ti spell indiveedual
> words like 'haund', but it raises the question o the inventory o Scots
> vowels. The inventory on yer wabsteid, Sandy, seems ti hae ten vowels,
> no coontin [@], or [3] an [2], at's allophones o ithers (for the sake o
> airgument, oniewey - I dinna richtly ken the status o Aitken's Vowel).
> It seems ti be a typical Central Scots 9-vowel system wi the addeetion o
> /y/ (at I'v been writin /Y/). For an underlyin pattern - raither nor a
> pronunciation guide - I wad say ye wad need ti pit in /e+/, /e-/ an /O/,
> an tak awa /2/ (cause, like ye say, the differ is no phonemic in onie
> dialect). I wad suggest, tae, at it wad be clearer ti uise /a/ an /A/
> for the twa 'a' soonds, cause this wad evite the impression at the
> distinction aye depends on roondin.

Ay, like I says, I'll hae tae gang throu it aa again in the
licht o what ye've been sayin. I dinna ken what I'm meant
tae dae aboot this conspiracy tae stop me finndin beuks the
likes o Catford's tho. I mean I'm never oot the saicont-haun
beukshops whan I'm up in Scotland, I've fund hunders o beuks
in Scots an no _ane_ haes a daecent lingwistic study like this.
The only explanation is that fowk taks thae beuks aff the shelfs
the meenit they see me comin!

> This is juist me thinkin wi my fingers (better nor my heid, I daursay!)
> an gettin cairit awa as uisual. But I dout I maun be awed
> tippence-ha'penny bi nou!

What's that in euros?

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================