LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.07.14 (01) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 14.JUL.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.07.13 (06) [E/LS]

Dear Ron & Lowlanders,

well, I think you slightly misunderstood something here; the "real"
Platt
that I was talking about would be my own, personal version which seems
to
have been forever buried under the all-too-similar Dutch. And, since it
was
such an ecclectic mix, I can't just go back "to the place" for a
refreshener... and I grieve that if I tried to speak Platt today, it
would
feel somewhat contrived to me.

Yes, today I'm pretty sure they were speaking Friesian - which I can at
least read. It would be interesting to find out whether I can understand
it
better these days now that I am fluent in Dutch.

I remember, by the way, having a prolonged argument with someone from
East
Frisia whether the correct "Platt" word for a brook would be "Beek" (his
version) or "Beke" (my version)...

Greetings,
Gabriele

----------

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lanuage contacts! 2002.07.13(06) [E/LS]

Dach ook, Ron, Leeg- un Lowlanners,

jungedie- mutt dat'n Brütt ween, bi Di, Ron! Mookt Di jo ennich
grantich!

Gabriele globalmoose at t-online.de schreev:

>Dear Lowlanders,

>yes, I feel the same way about this as Fiete does; the concept of "one"
>Lower Saxon dialect confuses me a lot.

>I grew up in a village in Southern Lower Saxony, in the Solling region
>of
>the Weser "highlands", just west of the Harz mountains. My mother hails
>from
>Mecklenburg, so whatever Platt I heard from her and her brothers was
>closely
>akin to the writings of Fritz Reuter. My father's paternal ancestors
>were
>shepherds in the Harz for many centuries, while his mother grew up on a
>farm
>in the Lüneburger Heide. Plus, my mother's employer, who was a close
>friend
>of the family, grew up near Hamburg and spoke coastal Platt to me a lot
>(I
>posted her Christmas poem, "Kujees kümmt", on Lowlands years ago).
>
>So I was exposed to no less than five different flavours of Platt as a
>child, of which the Sollinger Platt was the "broadest" by far, and the
>hardest to understand. Later my family moved to the renowned city of
>Hamel(i)n on the Weser, and there I encountered yet another flavour. So
>I am
>afraid I never learned to speak Platt "properly", i.e. in any pure
>flavour
>that any of the mentioned groups would have accepted as "theirs"
>(although I
>am probably closest to Mecklenburger Platt, since it was "mameloschen",
>so-to-speak - and I have never even been to Mecklenburg).
>
>Later, in university, I overheard two friends talk to each other in what
>sounded to me like Polish, although I could have sworn they were from
>Northern Germany (especially with a first name like "Hark"). I asked
>them,
>and they laughed and told me they were both from the island of Föhr.
>Even
>growing up with Platt, I had not been able to identify it - it was that
>different!!

>On my first visits to the Netherlands, I could make myself understood
>just
>fine speaking Platt - which I was then able to do "naturally", without
>thinking about it. But ever since I have been fluent in Dutch, I have
>found
>myself unable to speak even my mongrel Platt any more, because what
>comes
>out is always Dutch. And I would feel really silly trying to speak Platt
>these days and fishing for words like it was a foreign language! The
>only
>times when it still comes out is when I feel excited or angry, then it's
>always "Jau!", "Man tau" or "Smiet man jümmer wech!".

>So here's my tale of woe - the "real" Platt seems to elude me to this
>day.

>Greetings,
>Gabriele Kahn

Ron anter':

>...So far I have never encountered a Lowlands Saxon ("Platt", "Low German")
>variety I did not understand.  If it was called "Platt" or "plat" and I
>didn't understand it, it was because it was not a Saxon dialect but a
>Low Franconian, Limburgish or Rhenish dialect. (In Germany so have been
>lumped together with Lowlands Saxon ones under this one "Platt" label.)
>
>> yes, I feel the same way about this as Fiete does; the concept of "one"
>> Lower Saxon dialect confuses me a lot.

>I would respectfully (and I mean it) submit that this is because of a
>conceptual misunderstanding, probably in part induced by the two
>malevolent ghosts that keep haunting tribalist Europe's thinking, their
>names being "Uniformity" and "Purity."
>
>No one in their right mind would suggest that there be a single dialect
>of Lowlands Saxon ("Low German"), unless it could be some separate
>formally written variety for non-personal and non-artistic communication
>(which will never happen).  What some hopefully sane people are talking
>about is that (1) people relax, stop being stifled by the inherited fear
>of impurity, and (2) bridge any gaps that can be bridged, for instance
>by coming together and by coming up with a uniform (and internationally
>acceptable) way of writing the various dialects, so that interdialectal
>communication be at least as easy as it is in spoken form.
>
>(1) There is no such thing as a pure language/dialect -- no, not even in
>Iceland (where foreign words are filtered out of the written standard)
>and in the post-Soviet Baltic countries (where, like in France, language
>committees and the language police have been patrolling the streets in
>search of evil foreign words on public display).  Our languages and
>cultures thrive and blossom in large part *because* of
>cross-pollination, mutual inspiration and a sharing of supra-regional
>and inter-human experiences and expressions.  As long as people
>communicate and mix with each other, there is no such thing as a pure
>language, culture or race (if you subscribe to the concept of "race,"
>which I don't), and we all know from the not so distant past where these
>obsessions with purity can land you.  The sooner we throw out these
>purist pipe dreams the sooner we will relax and actually get something
>done re saving our language(s), first of all by creating a general sense
>of the language as a whole.  Deliberately and forcibly introducing words
>or expressions from other languages or dialects is an extreme thing few
>people would advocate.  However, what's with the North German obsession
>with "pure dialects," angry calls and letters to radio stations whose
>anchor persons dare to mix dialects, or writers being ridiculed for
>doing the same in their published works, and editors insisting on giving
>the author's exact place of birth and native dialect (apparently for the
>reader to check the work for authenticity and purity of language, based
>on the assumption that people don't leave their native places and roam
>around)?  Give me a break!  Nu maal sinnig!  Folks, relax!  If you don't
>you'll "purify" your dialects and the entire language right out of
>existence under the motto "Lever dood as mengeleert!" ("Rather dead than
>mixed!").

>(2) No, contrary to common, paranaoid assumptions, instituting such a
>generally applicable orthographic *system* would *not* destroy
>linguistic diversity, would not change dialects.  People could still use
>their dialects in writing, just write them so speakers of other dialects
>can more easily understand them.
>
>Folks, I know that above I said a few things that may be perceived as
>overly critical, even as _Nestbeschmutzung_.  It's not intended to
>attack anyone, just to make people snap out of the stifling, limiting
>pattern of assumptions that make them resistent to change while the
>language they profess to love is on a respirator in the intensive care
>unit.  Besides, I'm a born and raised European, even if a "tearaway," am
>thus talking about my own people and get to say a few "harsher" things
>about them.

>Leve Lüüd', wenn wi wat för us Spraak doon wüllt, denn möött wi anfangen
>ahn Bang över d'n Gaarntuun to kieken, bit wied hin an de Kimm....

Hett ditt Gewitter de Luft'n lütt beeten affköhlt?

Watt Du, Ron, bi dissen Themen dermooten ut'e Puuschen koomen deihst,
is'n
heel best Teikken föör Dien Angaschmang in uns Sprooken und gefallt mi.
Mi
dücht blauts, Du schüllst uns ne schechen, wenn wi'n lütt beeten bang
sünn't
vöör'n neiget "Artefaktum", so'n Oort "Esperanto föör Plattdüütsch", un'
dat
hett nu' ganz gewiss gonnix tau kriegen mit dennen
Nazi-Rassen-Tüünkroom!
Dennen Schiet bruuks't ne weller uutgrooben!

Op't anner Siet haar'ck overs ook schreeven, watt'n Sprook blaut
lebennig
blivvt, wenn sei mitte Tieden geiht un' sick anpasst. Dat weer jümmers
sau
un' schall ook so blieven.

Blauts- jüstemang de Ünnerscheeden mookt'n graut Deil von jemme
Lebennigkeit
uut. Ünnerscheeden in jemme "Historie" un'  dat Anpassen an Lannschapp,
an
jemme speziellen Noobern un' Kontakten tau in- un' uutlänn'sche "Low-
un'
*Hauch*lanners" hett dat Vokabularium, jemme Leebenswies un' Oort (ook
politisch, un' jüst door!) tau denken, tau snacken düchdich faarvt. Dat
köön' wi ne einfach neer'n Disch fallen looten!
Ick geev Di taumool recht: wi mööt tohaup haulen, üm tau retten, wat
noch
tau retten is, un' ick weit von Di, watt Du'n fiene Nees un' best'
Oogenmoot
för elk ein'n Dialekt hesst un' emm sien Platz looten deihst. Snacken in
uns
Heimat un' schrieven bi LL-L schull'n wi viellich' gaud uut'nein haulen,
as
dat noch meuglich is'.
Is't obers ne jümmer (kiek no boben, tau Gabriele ehr'n Erfoohrung!):
mien
Wannschapp in't Löönbörger Heiden schull mi woll lesen köönen, snacken
mutt
ick sachs Hauchdüütsch mit jemm!

Ick mein, jüst sau as Du, wi schull'n "...ahn Bang över d'n Gaarntuun
(to)
kieken", blauts: ne "...bit wied hin an de Kimm....": door seih' wi all
toohaup kein Land meihr.

Kumpelmenten no Seattle!

Fiete.

P.S.: LL-L: "Long Live Lowlands"!!

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language contacts

Fiete, Du hest schreven:

> Hett ditt Gewitter de Luft'n lütt beeten affköhlt?

Man bloots so'n lütt beten.  Bruddich schall 't sachs blieven bit 't
anfangt 'n beten frischer to briesen.

Nee, niks vun dat, wat ik schreven har, was persöönlich meent, un ja, ik
heff jüst so veel Duurhaftigkeit för 't Ahnweten und för 't Bangwesen as
ik Füer in d'n Buuk heff.  Na mien Verscheel bringt dat Öller- un
Wieserwarden niks, wenn 't Füer in d'n Buuk al uutgahn is.

> un' dat
> hett nu' ganz gewiss gonnix tau kriegen mit dennen Nazi-Rassen-Tüünkroom!
> Dennen Schiet bruuks't ne weller uutgrooben!

Nee, dat heff ik wiedlöftiger meent, heff daarwegen schreven "malevolent
ghosts that keep haunting tribalist Europe's thinking, their names being
"Uniformity" and "Purity"" -- *Europe*, nich *Germany*.  Düsse Spökels
gaht ook vundagigendaags noch üm, mit bi de "Butenlanners
ruut!"-Kampanjen un rechtsradikalen Kraam -- bi de anti-russ'schen,
puristischen Sentimenten in de nu egenststännigen ehrmaligen
Sovjetrepubliken, bi 't Verkloppen vun "düüster"-uutsehne Minschen in
Russland, bi 't Fechten mank Bröders in d'n Balkan, bi 't Kujoneern,
Piesacken un Achter-Muern-Steken vun Roma-Minschen ("Taters,"
"Zigeuner") in Oosteuropa, bi 't "Reinmaken" vörn un achtern ...  Nee,
so lang düsse Spökels noch ümgahn köönt, so lang is dat Uutgraven na
mien Verscheel noodwennig -- "Lest we forget."

> Ick mein, jüst sau as Du, wi schull'n "...ahn Bang över d'n Gaarntuun > (to)
> kieken", blauts: ne "...bit wied hin an de Kimm....": door seih' wi all
> toohaup kein Land meihr.

Ja, leve Fiete, un jüst daar liggt de Verscheel. Ik meen un segg,
güntsieds [beyond] de Kimm [horizon] fangt dat eerst an intressant to
warden.  Daar liegt dree loovde Lannen, un mit Naam heett se
"Vörstellen" [vision, imagination], "Höpen" [hope] un "Freeheit"
[freedom, liberty].

'n Leven Minsch, so wat as 'n "expatriate _Leidensgenosse_," de upstünns
in Okzitanien wahnt, schreev' mi vundaag 'n wiesen Sprook: "A bird can
recognize it's cage for what it is only from the outside."

Grötens un Kumpelmenten in Fründschupp vun Huus to Huus,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
 You have received this because your account has been subscribed upon
 request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l"
 as message text from the same account to
 <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or sign off at
 <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 * Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
 * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
 * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
 * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
   to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
   <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 * Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other
   type of format, in your submissions
=======================================================================