LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.07.14 (07) [E/LS/S]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 14.JUL.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "Andy \(Scots-Online\)" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" [E/LS/S]

R. F. Hahn Wrote:

<snip>

>bridge any gaps that can be bridged, for instance
> by coming together and by coming up with a uniform (and internationally
> acceptable) way of writing the various dialects, so that interdialectal
> communication be at least as easy as it is in spoken form.

Some people in Scots language circles object to that on the grounds that
it
is 'purism'. (The idea of one 'pure' Scots - I assume) Written Scots has
to
remain 'pseudo phonetically' spelled according to the perceived sound to
letter correspondences of standard English - if not, it's 'artificial'
at
best and and at worst 'purist'.
I kind of find that strange. Although they talk about Scots Language the
way
they approach Scots is undeniably 'Scottish Dialects of English'.
Funnily,
I've never heard these people speak Scots.

> (1) There is no such thing as a pure language/dialect -- no, not even in
> Iceland...
<snip>
>The sooner we throw out these
> purist pipe dreams the sooner we will relax and actually get something
> done re saving our language(s), first of all by creating a general sense
> of the language as a whole.  Deliberately and forcibly introducing words
> or expressions from other languages or dialects is an extreme thing few
> people would advocate.  However, what's with the North German obsession
> with "pure dialects," angry calls and letters to radio stations whose
> anchor persons dare to mix dialects, or writers being ridiculed for
> doing the same in their published works, and editors insisting on giving
> the author's exact place of birth and native dialect (apparently for the
> reader to check the work for authenticity and purity of language, based
> on the assumption that people don't leave their native places and roam
> around)?  Give me a break!  Nu maal sinnig!  Folks, relax!  If you don't
> you'll "purify" your dialects and the entire language right out of
> existence under the motto "Lever dood as mengeleert!" ("Rather dead than
> mixed!").

In Scotland you find similar tendencies concentrating on relatively
minor
differences (usually predictable phonological ones - less so
grammatical,
probably because the critics have no idea of what Scots grammar is)
between
dialects thus encouraging folk to see their own dialect in comparrison
with
standard English instead of seing it as part of a Scots whole.
In scotland a writer's abode is not usually mentioned (as far as dialect
authenticity is concerned) and dialect mixing (as far as vocabulary
goes) in
literature is generally accepted though some have an allergy to
traditional
Scots grammar (no matter which dialect) and insist on forcing Scots to
comply to the norms of standard English grammar. Which of course is not
Scots but respelled and relexified standard English. Those who object
are
often labelled 'purist'.

> (2) No, contrary to common, paranaoid assumptions, instituting such a
> generally applicable orthographic *system* would *not* destroy
> linguistic diversity, would not change dialects.  People could still use
> their dialects in writing, just write them so speakers of other dialects
> can more easily understand them.

Some in Scots language circles see it the other way about. Those who
propose
"a generally applicable orthographic *system*" are often called
'purists' at
best and 'heid-bangers' at worst.
What's the opposite of Purist? - Impurist? - A deliberate movement to
undermine, water-down and generally destroy the language?
Are Scots speakers too stupid to learn "a generally applicable
orthographic
*system*"? Those involved in producing Scots Language materials for
schools
tend to take the 'pseudo-phonetic Scottish Dialects of English' approach
to
literacy in Scots- which by its nature presupposes literacy in standard
English.

> Folks, I know that above I said a few things that may be perceived as
> overly critical, even as _Nestbeschmutzung_.  It's not intended to
> attack anyone, just to make people snap out of the stifling, limiting
> pattern of assumptions that make them resistent to change while the
> language they profess to love is on a respirator in the intensive care
> unit.  Besides, I'm a born and raised European, even if a "tearaway," am
> thus talking about my own people and get to say a few "harsher" things
> about them.

Ron I can't figure out how trying to clean, tidy-up and generally make
the
nest a better (and easier) place to live and communicate in can be
considered _Nestbeschmutzung_.

> Leve Lüüd', wenn wi wat för us Spraak doon wüllt, denn möött wi anfangen
> ahn Bang över d'n Gaarntuun to kieken, bit wied hin an de Kimm.

Ay! Guid fowk, gin we're efter daein ocht for wir tongue we maun stairt
no
bein feart tae tak a keek ower the gairden waw, hyne awa til end o the
easins.

Andy Eagle
www.scots-online.org

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language contacts

Thanks, Andy!

> What's the opposite of Purist? - Impurist?

Mibbie "taigler, sosser an messaniser" -- Inglish _messer and
mongrelizer_, Laich Saxon _Mengelerer_?

> Ron I can't figure out how trying to clean, tidy-up and generally make
> the
> nest a better (and easier) place to live and communicate in can be
> considered _Nestbeschmutzung_.

Ay, Andy, weel sayed! Ou yea, the nest *is* no owerly weel redd up ...

An "ditto in Norlan Germany" tae the feck o whit ye've sayed abuin.

Regairds,
Reinhard/Ron

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