LL-L "Language policies" 2002.07.30 (01) [E]

Tue Jul 30 16:02:49 UTC 2002

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 30.JUL.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Policies

Dear All

Recent talk about writing in a Scots or Low Saxon
which could be understood by everyone has got me
thinking about standardisation of languages. Although
I realise that standardising a set of dialects is in
some way a step towards its recognition as a valid
language by speakers of other languages, I also think
that standardising dialects can be dangerous for other
dialects which differ from this standardised version.
The problem is that standardising dialects promotes
the standard version to something 'sacred' to which
others should adhere to, and also demotes the
non-standard forms.

For example, if I write (or even say) 'probly' for
'probably', 'could of' for 'could have' or use
'bought' as the past tense for both 'buy' AND 'bring'
in a serious paper, these are considered not only
non-standard, but sub-standard, comical, and
practically always as wrong, even though they are
forms which are a part of my speech. This has the
effect of demoting my accent.

Another danger of standardisation is the introduction
of forms which will undoubtedly at some point become
archaic. English 'night' is very rarely nowadays
pronounced with a fricative, in either England English
varieties or Scottish English (not including Scots),
however forms such as 'nite' are frowned upon, even
though these themselves are based on antiquated
English orthography. Even German and Dutch orthography
which are far closer to actual pronunciations have
forms which differ from usage (compare German 'ei' and
Dutch 'ui' which do not represent phonetic /ei/ or
/ui/ respectively).

I don't want to say that standardisation is completely
bad, but it can have a damaging effect on non-standard
varieties.

Your views...

Gary

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From: "Nigel Smith" <rnigelsmith at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2002.07.29 (05) [E]

I have also followed with interest the discussion of the potential uses
of Scots and Lowlands Saxon, but I feel that one important element has
been missing from the discussion: the use of these languages in primary
(elementary) and secondary (high) schools. When we write a thesis or
dissertation on our specialist subject, we do not usually do so in a
vacuum, divorced from the historical context of how we have learned the
subject. In the field of physics, for example, I think it is true to say
that most physicists started learning the subject at secondary school --
through the medium of the 'power language' (English or High German),
using textbooks written in the power language. As they have progressed
in their field, they may have encountered scholarly works written in
other languages -- for example, High German-speaking physicists will
almost certainly have encountered articles and books written in English.

To my mind, what makes the concept of a thesis or dissertation written
in Scots or Lowlands Saxon appear so strange to most people is that
there is no precedent for it, and that goes back to how the material is
presented at school. If teaching and textbooks (=Lehrbücher) were
available in Scots and if it were possible to follow a course on physics
through the medium of Scots, it would appear much less strange if those
who had gone through that system were to start writing dissertations and
theses in Scots.

This is partly what has led to the success of the Welsh-speaking or
bilingual schools in Wales: many subjects which were previously dealt
with only or mainly in English are now being taught and learned through
the medium of Welsh. (I have to say, however, that even in
Welsh-speaking schools there is a tendency to teach science subjects
through the medium of English). Textbooks are available in Welsh BECAUSE
THERE IS A DEMAND FOR THEM from schools. The issue of standardised
terminology has been addressed by ACCAC (the Qualifications, Curriculum
and Assessment Authority for Wales) which has produced 'Y Termiadur
Ysgol', a dictionary of standardised terminology for the schools of
Wales.

I firmly agree with those contributors who believe that any language can
express any concept -- but the concept must first be present in the
culture of the speakers concerned. This creativity is shown in the
diversity of means used to create words to express new technological
developments -- for example "mobile", "moby", "cellphone", "cellular",
"Handy" (what's the Scots or Lowlands Saxon for this device?) However,
without major changes in the educational system, I find it hard to see
the idea of academic treatises in Scots or Lowlands Saxon taking off.
Such changes in the system are not perhaps as inconceivable as we might
think -- it is not so long since someone expressing such views about
Welsh would have been regarded as a crank or an impossible romantic.

I have a vague memory of reading about a biology textbook which was
produced in Scots, for use by secondary schools, but I can't find any
reference to it anywhere. Does anyone else have any knowledge of it? It
is possible that I read about it on this list some years ago.

Ron Hahn wrote:

RH> How would it sit with the faculties and administrations of Scottish
universities if someone submitted a thesis or dissertation in Scots? Has
this been done or attempted?

It would interest me to know whether work can be submitted in Scots by
those following the courses in Scots Language at the University of
Edinburgh (http://www.arts.ed.ac.uk/englang/scots.html), or indeed
whether any of the lectures are given in Scots. (By the way, I am
slightly concerned that the way to get to that URL is to click on the
link marked _English Language_ on the 'Academic Faculties and
Departments' page...)

Nigel Smith

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From: "Luc Hellinckx" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Kultursprache

Beste leeglanners,

The discussion about dialects being (un)able to come to terms with
modern
day scientific vocabulary lingers on in my mind too.
Take "angular momentum" for example (quite essential in quantum
physics).
Even though it's an English term, I'm pretty sure that certain Urdu (~
Pakistani) words may sound more familiar in many a Londoner's ears. The
concept itself is "alien" to most people. Dutch uses the word
"draaiimpulsmoment" instead but even though that may sound less "exotic"
it
doesn't trigger the layman's mind either, of course.
In this respect I find it very denigrating to call English (or Dutch,
German, Russian...for that matter) "Kultursprachen" because it implies
that
most other languages represent less or no culture at all. In a
scientific
context, those so called "Kultursprachen" merely act as a "lingua
franca",
they're very useful for bridging the linguistic gap between differently
speaking communities. Latin served the same purpose during the Middle
Ages,
but Latin is (almost) "dead" now.
Personally I respect every language just as much, but if I'd have to
rewrite
my theses again I would surely include a Chinese abstract.
Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language policies

Dear Lowlanders,

I am pretty much in agreement with all of the main points made above.

First let me say that when I used the word "Kultursprache" I did so in a
sarcastic way.  I hope this was clear to at least most of you.  Anyone
who knows me even vaguely should know that I would never subscribe to
the concepts this term ("cultural language") usually implies, used in
this sense even in contemporary German writing.  What it really seems to
be based on is the idea that a country has a national, common culture
whose vehicle is this "Kultursprache" (remember? "one country - one
culture - one (legitimate) language"), i.e., a lingua franca, as Luc
correctly put it.  What it implies to me in the real world is that these
national cultures and languages are "real" or "legitimate," and that
everything else, i.e., ethnic, cultural and linguistic diversity within
a country, is incidental and lower ranking, something you acknowledge
only if forced to (e.g., under pressure from the EU).  In my opinion,
this mindset is the main reason why there is so much half-heartedness
and foot-dragging with regard to the implementation of the European
Language Charter.

Of course, it should be assumed that the person who wrote a Lowlands
Saxon (Low German) abstract of his dissertation did so as a political
statement, and it was all the more startling and thought-provoking
*because* there was no precedent for it.  Nigel hit the nail right on
the head when he mentioned "precedent" or rather the absence of it.
Obviously, using the language on all sorts of levels and subjects would
have to start with elementary education.  However, this would not happen
as long as people do not demand it like they demanded it in Wales for
instance.  It would also not happen if it were for most state or
provincial governments (who in most countries determine educational
policies) alone to decide, and it would certainly never happen if it
were left up to publishers and other free-enterprise bodies that produce
educational material.  This can only be achieved if it were nationally
legislated and fairly implemented, but that cannot happen unless past
conditioning ("Kultursprache" etc.) is reversed so people will be aware
of and demand minority language options.

I guess something can be said in favor of *not* legislating language, as
in the United States, where no language is actually official, because
this leaves room for movement.  However, in reality, English is and
probably will always be the _de facto_ national language, and Spanish is
the second language because of sheer number of speakers.  The downside
of this is that only numbers count, and minorities are not protected in
any way.  Right here in the greater Seattle area there is only a handful
of aged speakers of the native Lushoseets language left, and I expect
that in my own lifetime the language will be extinct.  There is also
very, very little exposure to aboriginal and other minority cultures and
languages, in the privately owned film industry only in a incidental
ways, and then only "major minority" languages, such as Navaho or
Lakota.

On the weekend I watched the prize-winning Canadian movie _Atanarjuat
(The Fast Runner)_ ("... Canada's first feature-length fiction film
written, produced, directed, and acted by Inuit" --
http://www.atanarjuat.com/) and enjoyed it very much.  It is entirely in
Inuqtitut with English (or French) subtitles.  You might go as far as
saying it is a timeless, universal drama that is not only suitable,
appealing and understandable for/to Inuit or other peoples of the Arctic
but indeed for anyone in the world, including people who started off
knowing nothing about that culture.  In the course of watching it you
learn a lot about the culture, social norms and spiritual beliefs.
Obviously, this is a precedent-setting effort, not just a movie.  I dare
say that it would not have been possible without governmental assistance
(the National Film Board of Canada's Aboriginal Filmmaking Program), and
perhaps not either had it not been for official recognition and
self-determination of Nunavut (http://www.gov.nu.ca/).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.:
Luc:
> Personally I respect every language just as much, but if I'd have to
> rewrite
> my theses again I would surely include a Chinese abstract.
I did.

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