From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  1 03:04:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:04:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.05.31 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.200414.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 31.MAY.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.29 (01) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Grammar
>
... explore the Lowlandic uses of 'to
>do' as an auxiliary verb. ...

Hello Ron, hello Lowlanders !

"daun da:jt 't le:ren" is the Eastern Friesland Low Saxon pendant to
English "learning by doing" but thats not all I want to tell.
You received my message telling about the meaning "to give, to fetch, to
offer...." for "daun" in Eastern Friesland LS.
The other, "normal" meaning is "to do" and it can also have a meaning
like "to do somebody a harm".
In EFLS we don't use "daun" to the same extent as in other LS variants.
You
may find some cases of emphatizing by use of "daun" (dat 't dor o:k
re:gen
da:jt hâr [h_a+accent-circonflexe_r*] 'k näit [n_a-Umlaut_i_t*] docht
- I
didn't think it is raining there, too) but these are exceptional.
Sometimes a postponed "de:" [the conjunctive form of "daun"] can
replace "wul" expressing a wish (wen 't man re:gen wul = wen 't man
re:gen
de:) but if preponed it is always "wul 't man re:gen", never: "de: 't
man
re:gen". The last use will be regarded as "wrong" or "ironical".
Much more interesting however is that "dón we:sen" or "dón hebben"
[d_o+accent-aigu_n*] have developed apart from their original meaning.
They
mark an event to be over, a work to be done and more like that as a
time-
aspect.
For example "nu: is 't singen dón" is a saying which means "it's over
now;
there is no more chance; there is no more left..."
"wen 't e:ten dón is" - after meal; "wen ji: 't e:ten dón heb(ben)t" -
after You finished meal.
"häi [h_a-Umlaut_i*] het dón" - he is ready, he finished.
"för [f_o-Umlaut_r*] fandoegh he' wi: 't dón" - we finished for today;
we
are ready with our today's work.
"wen 't gróven dón is, kööew [k_2xo-Umlaut_e_w*] tuwwels setten" -
as soon
as digging is done [unfortunately the English translation with "done" is
confusing] we can plant potatoes.
These "dón we:sen"/"dón hebben" forms seem to be perfect-tense but I
tend
to believe this as an error based on the forms of "daun" (to do)not
considering the special developement. If that is right they are
future-II-
tenses.

* a help if the letters aren't displayed correctly

Kind regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  1 03:06:10 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:06:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.05.31 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.200610.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 31.MAY.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.30 (02) [E/LS]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Ick heff jí±¶í½¥rs noch dat Probleijm, mien'n Dialekt tau schriewn; ick
>will
>oobvers nich soauw'n  Dwaarsläµ°er  woaar'n as platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE,
>de
>dat heel allerbest un akkraat versí¹Ží¸´t, blauts: leesen kann'st emm ne.-

Moin Fiete !

Wat is d'r so: stuer an mi:n sghri:fwîs ?  Du: käenst däi räecht
täikens un
hest o:k al teksten säin, däi so: sghre:ven bünt. 'T magh wal 'n
enkelt mòl
wat frömd tau lóten man so gro:t is fóken dat ferske:l tau wat däi
lüü
wäent bünt gor näit. Du: must äits tau d' o:stfräisk tól wennen.
Wen dat hier in 't "Lowlands-L"-li:st wat anners let dan lieght dat d'r
an,
dat ik däi täikens för läengt näit mit "e-mail" stüren kan un o:k
dat
räecht täiken för "gh" ga:jt näit. Dor mau' 'k mi: dan mit : un gh
helpen.  'N anner pro:ble:m is dat mit däi uemlu:den un aksenten. Däi
worden o:k ni räecht upwîst man dat is blo:t in d' li:st so: (wen d'r
wel
helpen kan sghul h' dat gaue daun !).

kumpelment
Holger

Hello Fiete !

What is Your problem with my orthography ?  You know the correct letters
and have seen texts written this way. Sometimes it might look strange
but
often the difference to what people are used to is low. Of course You
have
to consider it is Eastern Friesland language.
If it looks somewhat different here in the "Lowlnds-L"-list this is due
to
the fact that I cannot write the letters for long vowels (letter with a
stroke above)or the letter for "gh" (a "g" with a bow above) by e-mail.
I
use letter+: or gh instead. An other problem is that words with "Umlaut"
or
letters with accents from my mails aren't displayed correctly but that
is a
problem in the list only (I couldn't solve yet - if anyone has an idea,
please help !).

Greetings
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 16:43:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:43:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.094330.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 02.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.29 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I would like to invite you to help me explore the Lowlandic uses of 'to
> do' as an auxiliary verb.  I am interested in finding out what its
> development, spread and permutations are, but I would be interested in
> other aspects as well.  Approaching it from the angles of Modern Low
> Saxon (LS, "Low German"), Missingsch (M, i.e., German dialects on Low
> Saxon substrates) and Modern English, and noticing considerable
> similarities, I cannot help wondering if we are dealing with a Saxon
> feature or if the feature is more widely spread than that.
Hello lowlanders,
In Flanders  we use the word "doen" verfy often.
Some explination:

doen, deed, gedaan(èdoan) (Also doegen, deeg, gedegen , but archaic)
-geven : Zijn uitgezette geld doet hem 100 frank 's jaars.
-helpen, baten: De medicijnen zijn slecht, 't en doet al niet.
                Die mest doet veel in den akker.
-Indruk maken op het hart: Dat doet mij groot plezier.
                           Dat doet mij verdriet.
                           Dat doet mij iets.
-bezorgen, verschaffen: Doe mij nog ne keer van dezelfde wijn.
                        Iemand eere doen.
-kopen of verkopen: De markt doen.
                    De winkel doen.
-Er zich mee bezighouden: Ergens zijn werk af (van) doen(maken).
-leiden naar: Een dief naar 't gevang doen.
              Een osse naar de markt doen.
-zich tonen; Dien hond doe lelijk.
             Da kleedje doe schone.
             Die sieraden doen wel.
             Dien boom doet slecht in de hof.
-iemand volgen, overeenkomen met: Hij doet altijd met de winnaars.
                                  Hij deed mee met de Amerikaanders.
                                  Hij kan't niet doen met zijn broere.
                                  Ge moet nie vrezen, 't beest zal u
niet
doen.
-tot het einde: Ze doen om gedaan en komen dan eten.
-iets willen verrichten: Die rijpe pruimen doen om open te bersten.
                         Het heeft al twee weken gevrozen en't doet nog
niet
om te dooien.
- bevestigen... ontkennen: ik doe, ik en doe.
*Ge gaat dat niet kunnen. Ik doe (Jawel)
*Ge zijt ziek. 'k En doe. (toch niet)
*Ik è da nie gezeid. G' en doet. (Je hebt het wel gezegd)
*Ik zal zelve goan. G'en doet. (Ge gaat niet gaan)
*Hij woont daar niet meer. Hij doet. (Hij woont daar wel nog)
*Hij kan Frans. Hij en doet. (Hij kan geen Frans)
*Zij gaan verhuizen. Z'en doen. (Zij gaan niet verhuizen)
*Hij heeft u dat gezeid, doet hij niet? (Is het niet zo?)
*Ze gaat trouwen. Doe ze? (Is het waar?)
*Het heeft hier geregend. Doe't? (Is dat zo?)
*Dat zal kwalijk uitvallen. 't En doet. (neen)
*Ge meint dat ik liege maor 'k en doe . (Ik lieg niet)
*Dat is vreemd, en doet't niet? (Is het niet zo?)
*De bakker lacht met u. Hij en doet, hij en doet. (Toch niet)
*'t doet en doe niet (Neen het is niet zo)
*Ja 't en doe niet (Neen dat is niet waar)
* 't doet 't doet (Tochwel)
* 't doet en doe niet ((Het is niet zo)

-Het doet  (onpersoonlijk gebruikt)
  Het doet geld (Het komt op geld aan)
  Het doet nood (Het is noodzakelijk)
- aandoen, achterdoen, afdoen, binnendoen, indoen, omdoen ,oordoen,
opdoen,
overdoen, uitdoen, weerdoen...
-vuldoeninge  (plezier)
-doening (kalandize, werk,huis): Die café è veel doeninge
                                 D'er is veel doeninge in da steedje.
                                 Die boer èt een schone doeninge.
-doeninge (luim): Hij is in zijn doeninge (Hij is goed gehumeurd)

...
Groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.29 (01) [E]

Ron wrote:
>
>I would like to invite you to help me explore the Lowlandic uses of 'to
>do' as an auxiliary verb.  I am interested in finding out what its
>development, spread and permutations are, but I would be interested in
>other aspects as well.

Just to drop a wild card in here, can anyone explain the North East
Scots form _div_, which is used only as an auxiliary verb, distinct from
_dae_ (pronounced 'dee' in the North East, and which should, strictly
speaking, be spelt <dui>) which is used with the other meaning of Eng.
'do'. For example, you can say 'fit div ee dee wi 'is?' (What do you do
with this?) but not 'fit dee ee div wi 'is'?. Scots dictionaries refer
to _div_ as 'emphatic and interrogative', but in my experience of
'broad' North East Doric, 'div' and 'dee' are mutually exclusive (I have
heard only young urban speakers using 'dee' as an auxiliary verb) and I
suspect that the lexicographical perception of a connotation of emphasis
comes from areas where the verb form is dying out - as it appears to
have done in most parts of Scotland, although it is also used in
Geordie. (On the other hand, it may be that use of auxiliary _do_ is
usually emphatic or interrogative anyway, even in English, and that this
is a roundabout non-technical way of saying that _div_ is a
modal/auxiliary form.)

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 16:45:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:45:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.02 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.094531.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 02.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: Patricia Beving <beving.patricia at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Middle English and Dutch literature

Dear Lowlanders,

In order to complete a diachronic study on Middle English and Dutch, I
would be interested in finding an online version of Floris and
Blanchefleur
in these 2 languages and if possible in French,  alongside with an
English  translation of Vanden Vos Reynaerde (Reynard the fox) . Thank
you
for your help.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 16:47:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:47:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.02 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.094751.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: Patricia Beving <beving.patricia at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Vanden Vos Reynaerde

Dear Lowlanders,

Could any of you help me translate the following lines from Vanden Vos
Reynaerde in English or French?

Alse ghi wilt, so willic gaen. (12)

Lieve neve, ic wille gaen

Daer af willic mi in biechten dwaen.'

Eer hi doe conste in corten woerden
Ghespreken: 'Ic wille mi begheven,'
Daer dedic Ysingrijn bi mi
Up dat huus clemmen boven.
Ic seide, ic wilde hem gheloven,
Wildi crupen in die valdore,
Dat hire soude vinden vore
Van vetten hoenren sijn ghevouch.
Ter valdore ghinc hi ende louch,
Ende croep daer in met vare,
Ende began taste n harenthare.
Nu willic prouven, dat ic mach
Te hove bringhen een baraet,
Dat ic voer de dagheraet
In groter zorghen vant te nacht.

Waendi dat ic wille nemen
Eene loghene up mine langhe vaert?

Ic peinsde, worde hi ons zeere,
Dat wil alle waren verloren.

Waendi, dat ic u die Leye
Wille wijsen in die flume Jordane?

Maerghin, als die zonne up gaet,
Willic te Roeme om aflaet;
Van Roeme willic over zee.

Hi wille hem betren, ic segghe u hoe:
Reynaert wille maerghen vroe
Palster ende scerpe ontfaen
Ende wille te Roeme gaen,
Ende van Rome, danen wille hi over zee,
Of God wilt, ghi sult mi gheleeden
Ende mijn vrient Belin de ram;

MERCI !!!
Best
Patricia

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 22:27:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 15:27:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.02 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.152729.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Roman Laryushkin" <puka_2000 at mail.ru>
Subject:

Dear Lowlanders!

I need to a Dutch-English and English-Dutch dictionaries which I could
download and print, i.e. not on-line ones. If anyone can advice me
something, please.

Sincerely,
Roman Laryushkin.

Simferopol - Ukraine.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 03:36:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 20:36:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.203634.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Dear Lowlanders,

Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
...

Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
(Wat daaist dôê hier taau zitn?)
"Wat dost thou here to sit?"
What do you keep sitting around here for?

Wat sall dat Tüüchs noch rümtauliggen daun?
(Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
"What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?

Is there anything similar in other language varieties?

Thanks for all the other feedback on this topic.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 16:20:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:20:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.03 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.092034.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 03.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: "Reuben Epp" <repp at silk.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
> ...
> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
> (Wat daaist dôê hier taau zitn?)
> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>
> Wat sall dat Tüüchs noch rümtauliggen daun?
> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>
> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>
> Thanks for all the other feedback on this topic.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Reuben Epp <repp at silk.net writes:

In Plautdietsch we would say in similar vein to the foregoing
two sentences:

Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
Woo kjemmt daut, daut du hia noch sette deist?

Wat sall dat Tüüchs noch rümtauliggen daun?
Woo kjemmt daut, daut dit Zeig (Stoff) hia noch romligje deit?

Considerable variations in wording are understandably prevalent,
but use of the 'to do' verb is equally prevalent in Plautdietsch too.
For example:
'Put this in your pocket,' is frequently worded as: 'Doo dit en
diene Fupp.'  Some consider such use of 'doo' to be child talk,
and would prefer to say 'Stäakj (staikj) di dit en diene Fupp.'

A similar use of 'to do' in Plaudietsch adult terms is:

If you continue to walk here....
Wan du wiedahan hia gohne deist ....

Cheers!

Reuben Epp

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks, Reuben.

That's also how it is rendered in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):

> Woo kjemmt daut, daut du hia noch sette deist?
Wo kümmt dat, dat du hier noch sitten deist?

> Woo kjemmt daut, daut dit Zeig (Stoff) hia noch romligje deit?
Wo kümmt dat, dat dat Tüüg hier noch rümliggen deit.

Semantically, these are a bit different: (1) they express "how come
...?" (rather than disapprovingly "what ... for?"), and (2) they don't
*necessarily* express disapproval of the duration, could also express
surprise.

I am not familiar with the specific pattern as given by Hermann-Winter
in Northern dialects, specifically expressing (undesirably) extended
action:

> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
> (Wat daaist dôê hier taau zitn?)
* Wat deist du hier to sitten?

> Wat sall dat Tüüchs noch rümtauliggen daun?
> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
* Wat s(ch)all dat Tüügs noch rümtoliggen doon?

This also works:

> If you continue to walk here....
> Wan du wiedahan hia gohne deist ....
Wenn du wiederhen hier gahn deist, ...

Using the pattern discussed (apparently implying disapproval), it should
theoretically be ...

* Wan du hia too gohne deist, ...
* Wenn du hier to gahn deist, ...
If go keep on walking here ...

> 'Put this in your pocket,' is frequently worded as: 'Doo dit en
> diene Fupp.'  Some consider such use of 'doo' to be child talk,
> and would prefer to say 'Stäakj (staikj) di dit en diene Fupp.'

That would be similar in the Northern dialects:

Do dit/düt in dien Fick.
Stick/Steck dit/düt in dien Fick.

However, I'm not too shure if the use of _doon_ here would be considered
childish.  _Doon_ is very widely spread and neutral, very much like
English "to put."

Do dat Book up 't Riech.
Still/Stell dat Book up 't Riech.
Put (~ place) the book on the shelf.

Do de Blomen in 't Water.
Still/Stell/Stick/Steck de Blomen in 't Water.
Put (~ place) the flowers into (the) water.

Do d'n Kassen ünner dien Bedd.
Still/Stell/Stick/Steck/Schuuv' d'n Kassen ünner dien Bedd.
Put (~ shove) the chest under your bed.

In fact, I feel that the versions with _doon_ sound more natural, the
alternative ones with specific verbs perhaps a touch _geel_ ("yellow,"
i.e., "High"-German-tinted).  Others may disagree.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 21:39:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:39:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.03 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.143931.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 03.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: JL <jl at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.02 (02) [E]

> In order to complete a diachronic study on Middle English and Dutch, I
> would be interested in finding an online version of Floris and
> Blanchefleur

Perhaps gives searching with 'Google'for: 'Floris ende Blancefloer'
some results.

[Jakob Liek]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 22:07:55 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 15:07:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.03 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.150755.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Dear Lowlanders,

I responded to Reuben Epp's Mennonite Low Saxon (Plautdietsch) input:

> That's also how it is rendered in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):
>
> > Woo kjemmt daut, daut du hia noch sette deist?
> Wo kümmt dat, dat du hier noch sitten deist?
>
> > Woo kjemmt daut, daut dit Zeig (Stoff) hia noch romligje deit?
> Wo kümmt dat, dat dat Tüüg hier noch rümliggen deit.
>
> Semantically, these are a bit different: (1) they express "how come
> ...?" (rather than disapprovingly "what ... for?"), and (2) they don't
> *necessarily* express disapproval of the duration, could also express
> surprise.
>
> I am not familiar with the specific pattern as given by Hermann-Winter
> in Northern dialects, specifically expressing (undesirably) extended
> action:
>
> > Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
> > (Wat daaist dôê hier taau zitn?)
> * Wat deist du hier to sitten?
>
> > Wat sall dat Tüüchs noch rümtauliggen daun?
> > (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
> * Wat s(ch)all dat Tüügs noch rümtoliggen doon?
>
> This also works:
>
> > If you continue to walk here....
> > Wan du wiedahan hia gohne deist ....
> Wenn du wiederhen hier gahn deist, ...
>
> Using the pattern discussed (apparently implying disapproval), it should
> theoretically be ...
>
> * Wan du hia too gohne deist, ...
> * Wenn du hier to gahn deist, ...
> If go keep on walking here ...

In fairness to Reuben's input, I ought to add that in the second example
...

Wat sall dat Tüüchs noch rümtauliggen daun?
(Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
* Wat s(ch)all dat Tüügs noch rümtoliggen doon?

... _rümliggen_ (Plautdietsch _romligje_) 'lie around' already implies
disapproval, which renders _Wo kümmt dat, dat dat Tüüg hier noch
rümliggen deit?_ (Plautdietsch _Woo kjemmt daut, daut dit Zeig (Stoff)
hia noch romligje deit?_) 'How come this stuff is still lying around
here' close in meaning to _Wat sall dat Tüüchs noch rümtauliggen daun?_,
although apparently it does not have element of implying an unduly long
period, which _rümtauliggen daun_ does.

Also, _Wat ...?_ in this context clearly expresses disapproval, much
like English _What ... for?_ (What's that stuff supposed to keep lying
around for?), while _Wo kümmt dat, dat ...?_ (Plautdietsch _Woo kjemmt
daut, daut ...?_) does not necessarily express disapproval, much like
English "How come ...?"  Furthermore, _Wat ...?_ here asks for a
purpose, while _Wo kümmt dat, dat ...?_ only asks for a reason or
cause.  In other words, the difference is "For what purpose are you
keeping that stuff lying around here?" vs "What is the reason that that
stuff is lying around here?"

I would render Mecklenburg/Western Pomerania dialect _Wat deist du hier
tau sitten?_ as _Wat deist du hier rümsitten_ 'What are you sitting
around here for?' or better 'What do you keep sitting here around for?',
where _rüm..._ '... around', '... about' adds the element of disapproval
in that it implies 'sitting around idly/unnecessarily/uninvitedly'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 23:36:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:36:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.06.03 (04) [LS]
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.163619.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.05.31 (05) E/LS

Moin, Holger,

dat liggt  an mij'n Unfähigkeit, Dij'n Idee vonne heel eigen Schrift
ümtausetten. Du hesst mi all sau veel hölpen, blauts: mij dücht, ick bün
jümmers noch tau döösig. Ick krieeg door jümmers noch keejn Hand an.
Dijn
Teiken sünnd  amenn  ne leesboor föör mij.

"Language varieties"?- Schrivvst Du mij opp'n direktemang, kann ick't
leesen; över Ron sien Wech geiht't nu mool einfach ne. Ick kann Di woll
ook
denn leesn, overs blaut, ass ikk in Freesland ween hevv, föör'n Stücker
wat
Joor.

t'is heel verloorn!

t' allerbest un' kumplementen

Fiete.

PS: Ick sghall Di woll geern mool'n Prouw gee'm, op't direkte Wech, RE.
or
Fwd.  DS

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 15:14:33 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:14:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (01) [A/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.081433.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "" <johnno55 at excite.com>
Subject: E/a vowel shift in leeglanner languages

Hello to all

I have been fascinated by the discussions about the various languages
and their varients in our leeglanners group.

Some many years ago as a young undergraduate I had to do some research
into the vowel shift e to a in Afrikaans.

I have noticed that many of our contributors use an "e" where I would
have used an "a". Laaglanders not leeglanners.

In Afrikaans there appears to be a shift to using "a" not "e" - laagte
instead of leegte for a hollow in the topography of an
area. The same is true of aardappel instead of erdappel for a potato.

Yet there is no doublet or move in some cases: Afrikaans perd (German
Pferd) as against Dutch paard.

Have the lowlands languages settled on their usages or is there still a
shift occuring in these?

If any of our contributors can cast some light on this I shall be very
grateful.

Ek sê sommer baie dankie by voorbaat

John le Grange

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject Phonology

Dag, John, en welkom!

I was under the impression that Dutch and Afrikaans did *not* shift (at
least not in most cases), while most Low Saxon (Low German) variants
(and also German) underwent a shift called umlauting, where a vowel is
fronted and raised by a non-low front vowel that occurs in the next
syllable; e.g., German _Kran_ 'crane' > _Kräne_ 'cranes', and _Blatt_
'leaf' > _Blätter_ 'leafs' (where nowadays the <ä> is pronounced like
<e>, short or long).  In Low Saxon this applies less extensively (e.g.,
_Kraan_ > _Kraans_) and not in as straightforward a fashion.  For
instance, you get /blad/ _Bladd_ [blat] (in Germany unfortunately mostly
written <Blatt> because they want to make it look like German) 'leaf',
'newsletter', 'newspaper', where, depending on the dialect, the plural
form may be _Bläder_ ~ _Bleder_ ['ble:d3] or rounded as well to _Blöder_
['blø:d3] ~ ['bl9:d3] or _Blööd'_ [blø:.d] ~ [bl9:.d] (< _Blöde_ <
_Blade_).

As for Dutch and Afrikaans _laag_, I thought there was no shift, as also
in the Scots cognate _law_ and the (rounded) English cognate _low_,
which are apparently derived from Old Norse _lâgr_ (where the _-r_ is a
suffix). The Northern Low Saxon cognate _leeg_ ~ _leeg'_ is one of those
unfortunate cases where German-oriented spelling is misleading in that
most systems do not distinguish long vowels from diphthongs.  _Leeg_ has
a diphthong rather than a long vowel, is pronounced as [lE.IC] or
[lE:IG] and really ought to be written as something like _leyg_ ~
_leyg'_ or _leig_ ~ _leig'_ or _läig_ ~ _läig'_.  German does not have
such a diphthong and no way of writing it, so, in their endeavor to make
Low Saxon of Germany look as much as possible like German dialects, they
simply ignored the difference between non-German-sounding diphthongs and
long vowels.

It would help if you noted down and presented to us cases in which you
observe <aa> vs <ee>, so we could discuss them.

(By the way, Low Saxon _leeg_ is semantically interesting in that it
means both 'low' (and also 'flat', thus _Leegland_ 'low-lying, flat
land') and 'bad' (> 'inferior', 'evil', 'naughty').)

> Yet there is no doublet or move in some cases: Afrikaans perd (German > Pferd) as against Dutch paard.

Yes, this is an interesting case in that Afrikaans is different from
Dutch.  In Low Saxon, 'horse' is _Peerd_, again with a diphthong:
[pE.I3t], and the plural form is _Peerd'_ (usually written _Peer_ in
Germany) [pE:I3d] ~ [pE:I3] (< _Peerde_ ['pE.I3de]).

However, Low Saxon also has genuine long /ee/; e.g., _Weeg'_ [ve:.G] ~
[vE:.G] 'ways' (< _Weg_ [vEC] 'way'), and _geven_ ['ge:vm=] ~ ['gE:vm=]
'to give'.  So you also get minimal pairs; e.g., _leev'!_ [le:.v] ~
[lE:.v] 'live!' vs _leev'!_ [lE:Iv] 'love!'.  (Some academic distinguish
the long vowel by putting a little hook underneath it, while some
writers use <ä> for the long /ee/; thus _lääv'!_ vs _leev'!_.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 17:10:07 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:10:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.101007.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 04.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Randy Elzinga" <frisiancow at hotmail.com>
Subject:

Ron wrote:
>(By the way, Low Saxon _leeg_ is semantically interesting in that it
>means both 'low' (and also 'flat', thus _Leegland_ 'low-lying, flat
>land') and 'bad' (> 'inferior', 'evil', 'naughty').)

Can't something similar be said about English "low" as well?  For
example in the opposition between high culture vs. low culture, with the
implication that low culture is somehow inferior.

Also, before I knew what people meant when they referred to Low German,
I
was under the impression that it was some form of (High) German used for
informal purposes, as opposed to German used for literary or formal
purposes.  Other people with whom I have spoken about Low Saxon (Low
German) have had similar impressions of the term "Low German".

I would guess the association of high and low with superior and inferior
in English has something to do with metaphorical usage of spatial
terminology (ie. up/down, high/low) in describing rank within certain
social groups, perhaps rooted in a literal usage of the spatial
terminology, where people with a greater rank, regarded as superior, are
located physically higher (How many monarchs have put their thrones in
holes?).

Randy Elzinga
frisiancow at hotmail.com

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 17:29:06 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:29:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2002.06.04 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.102906.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Randy Elzinga wrote under "Semantics":

> Also, before I knew what people meant when they referred to Low German,
> I
> was under the impression that it was some form of (High) German used for
> informal purposes, as opposed to German used for literary or formal
> purposes.  Other people with whom I have spoken about Low Saxon (Low
> German) have had similar impressions of the term "Low German".

That goes to show how well the propaganda worked, never mind that the
two descended from two different languages (Old "High" German and Old
Saxon respectively), used to be considered two separate languages until
about some time in the early 18th century (which is why Martin Luther
commissioned a Low Saxon bible translation) and is largely
incomprehensible to German speakers (including North Germans) unless
they are extensively exposed to it (like to any related foreign
language).  On the Netherlands side the dialects there used to be
officially considered dialects of Dutch until official recognition
(which is less absurd considering the close relationship between the
two).  Many Low Saxon writers in Germany still kept referring to it as
_Spraak_ (or German _Sprache_) even after the 18th century, especially
during the 19th century revival movement,* even throughout the "dark
era" (from the end of WW II till about 1980) when in many parts of
Northern Germany the language virtually went underground on account of
widespread disapproval and denigration.  Calling it a language is now
again considered completely kosher and even correct.  The people you
have communicated with must be poorly informed and behind the times,
considering that Low Saxon (Low German) has now been *officially*
declared a language in both countries for a few years now.

* See, e.g., Klaus Groth's poetry
(http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 22:22:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:22:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.152241.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hoi John, hi all

John wrote:
<<<Yet there is no doublet or move in some cases:
Afrikaans perd (German Pferd) as against Dutch
paard.<<<

Just a *very* little part of the puzzle. One that
certainly needs confirmation by other people on the
list.
Old Dutch _e_ before _r_ got stretched to a very open
/e:/. In Middle Dutch two forms are attested:
_pa(e)rt_ and _pe(e)rt_.
Modern *Standard* Dutch _paard_ is due to influence of
the Holland and Zeeuws dialects in which the result of
the /e/+r > open /e:/ and /a:/ merged. (Cf. Van Loon).
I think most dialects spoken in Flanders still have
the long (and open) /e:/ sound.
paard: _peerd_ (or _pjeed_)
paarden: _peerde_
paardje: _perdje_ (short /e/)

Best regards

Frank

=====
"De perto ninguém é normal!" - Caetano Veloso

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 02:37:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:37:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.193741.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (01) [A/E]

Ron answered to John's <johnno55 at excite.com>
message >Subject: E/a vowel shift in leeglanner languages

The Northern Low Saxon cognate _leeg_ ~ _leeg'_ is one of those
>unfortunate cases where German-oriented spelling is misleading in that
>most systems do not distinguish long vowels from diphthongs.  _Leeg_ has
>a diphthong rather than a long vowel, is pronounced as [lE.IC] or
>[lE:IG] and really ought to be written as something like _leyg_ ~
>_leyg'_ or _leig_ ~ _leig'_ or _l䩧_ ~ _l䩧'_.  German does not have
>such a diphthong and no way of writing it, so, in their endeavor to make
>Low Saxon of Germany look as much as possible like German dialects, they
>simply ignored the difference between non-German-sounding diphthongs and
>long vowels.

In Eastern Friesland LS we have a long e in _le:gh_. This long vowel is
coloured somewhat by the surrounding consonants but we can't accept it
to
be a real diphthong (we have a system of diphthongs differing from
German).
The system in EFLS is complicated by the existance of two types of long
vowels. The first are simple long vowels, the second are the "stressed"
ones.

>In Low Saxon, 'horse' is _Peerd_, again with a diphthong:
>[pE.I3t], and the plural form is _Peerd'_ (usually written _Peer_ in
>Germany) [pE:I3d] ~ [pE:I3] (< _Peerde_ ['pE.I3de]).
>

For example the singular for "horse" is "pe:rd" the plural is "pêer"
[p_e+accent-circonflexe_e_r]. (The pronounciation of the stressed vowels
is
long rising/short falling as if you are calling somebody distant to you
or
as if you want to attract someones attention.) There are also stressed
diphthongs.

>However, Low Saxon also has genuine long /ee/; e.g., _Weeg'_ [ve:.G] ~
>[vE:.G] 'ways' (< _Weg_ [vEC] 'way')

In EFLS we have sg. "wegh" (short e, in IPA: greek epsilon), pl. "wêgh"
[w_e+accent-circonflexe_gh].

>So you also get minimal pairs; e.g., _leev'!_ [le:.v] ~
>[lE:.v] 'live!' vs _leev'!_ [lE:Iv] 'love!'.

"Live" and "love" in EFLS are distinguished by the vowel resp.
diphthong:
le:ven - to live; le:vend - a) life, b) body; ik le:w - I live; ik lêw
- I
lived; läif [l_a-Umlaut_i_f] - kind, nice; läiefd
[l_a-Umlaut_i_e_f_d]- love (~äie~ is a stressed diphthong).

Regards Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thank you for your very interesting explanation (above), Holger.  I for
one eagerly lap up all you kindly share about Eastern Friesland Low
Saxon.  So, please, never feel that you are sending your pearls of
wisdom into a black hole!

I think your explanation, in conjunction with various lexical and
idiomatic characteristics we have been discussing on and off, makes it
pretty clear that EFLS occupies a very special place within the
language, certainly a dialect group that is a more loosely bound to the
rest of the language, i.e., not always systematically corresponding to
the other dialect groups, presumably due to a rather strong East Frisian
substrate.  (Might one go as far as comparing it to the position
Shetlandic occupies within Scots?)  Because of this (and because EF
speakers obviously consider their dialects to be very different, hence
the rejection of non-EFLS literature, as recently mentioned), I would be
in favor of SFLS (and also Plautdietsch) establishing its own standards
should the language community ever get it together to unify its
fractions and factions and think in terms of a whole language (which is
doubtful).  However, it would be nice if its standards were compatible
with those of the rest of the language so as to at least facilitate
mutual reading comprehension.

Thanks again for sharing your dialect with us, Holger.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 14:38:21 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:38:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.073821.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]

> Ron wrote:
> >(By the way, Low Saxon _leeg_ is semantically interesting in that it
> >means both 'low' (and also 'flat', thus _Leegland_ 'low-lying, flat
> >land') and 'bad' (> 'inferior', 'evil', 'naughty').)

The same goes for Zeêuws: _leege_ or _leage_ means
both 'low' and 'flat', although under recent Dutch
influence, forms like _laoge_ and _laege_ become
more and more widespread.
I think that in Dutch _leeg_ originally also meant
'low'.

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 15:58:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:58:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.085816.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (04) [E]

Frank Verhoft wrote:

> Old Dutch _e_ before _r_ got stretched to a very open
> /e:/. In Middle Dutch two forms are attested:
> _pa(e)rt_ and _pe(e)rt_.
> Modern *Standard* Dutch _paard_ is due to influence of
> the Holland and Zeeuws dialects in which the result of
> the /e/+r > open /e:/ and /a:/ merged. (Cf. Van Loon).
> I think most dialects spoken in Flanders still have
> the long (and open) /e:/ sound.
> paard: _peerd_ (or _pjeed_)
> paarden: _peerde_
> paardje: _perdje_ (short /e/)

I think it isn't correct that Frank mentioned Zeeuws in
this respect. In all dialects of Zeeuws, 'horse' is _peerd_,
_perd_ or _paerd_.
Some other examples (all three the above spellings,
_ae_, _ee_, _e_, are used, but I just stick to _ae_ for
now):

aerdappel (or _petaote_ in some dialects): potatoe
laerze: boot
aerde: soil
waerd: worth
kaeze: candle
aerm: poor
waerm: warm
etc.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Marco,

It seems to me that what you write _ae_ in Zeelandic is an allophone of
the short phoneme /a/ when it is followed by syllable-final /r/.  It is
also a special allophone in most Low Saxon (Low German) dialect, where
/ar/ tends to be phonetically realized as something close to long /aa/
in Standard Dutch: [a:].  Or it could be a long /aa/ followed by /r/.
Thus, Low Saxon _Arm_ 'arm' is pronounced like English Australian "arm":
[?a:m].

Thus Zeelandic:
laerze /larz@/ ~ /laarz@/ boot
aerde /ard@/ ~ /aard@/ soil
waerd /ward/ ~ /waard/ worth
aerm /arm/ ~ /aarm/ poor
waerm /warm/ ~ /waarm/ warm

The spelling <aer> then, in my opinion, is an attempt at phonetic
representation, is, theoretically speaking, redundant as long as the
reader knows that <ar> or <aar> has that particular pronunciation.

"What about Zeelandic _kaeze_ 'candle' then," you might ask.  I assume
that there is an /r/ underlying (/karz@/ ~ /kaarz@/) but not spelled.
(Cf. German _Kerze_ 'candle')

I tend to favor the theory that it is a short /a/ lenthened by /r/, as
in Low Saxon:

arm /arm/ [?a:m] 'poor' (= Austr. "arm")
harm /harm/ [ha:m] 'harm' (= Austr. "harm")
warm /varm/ [va:m] 'warm'
Hart /hart/ [ha:t] 'heart' (= Austr. "heart")
Karr /kar/ [ka:] 'cart', 'wagon', 'barrow' (= Austr. "car")
Karn /karn/ [ka:n] 'kernel', 'pip', 'nucleus'
Arf /arf/ [?a:f] 'pea'
Kark /kark/ [ka:k] 'church' (= Austr. "to kark")
scharp /Sarp/ [Sa:p] 'sharp' (= Austr. "sharp")
Wark /vark/ [va:k] 'work'
Farken /fark at n/ ['fa:kN=] 'piglet'

Versus *long* /aa/ followed by syllable-final /r/, which is pronounced
quite differently:

Aard ~ Aart ~ Oort ~ Ort /aard/ [?Q:at] ~ [?o:at] 'type', 'kind'
Haar ~ Hoor /haar/ [kQ:a] ~ [ho:a] 'hair'
Baard ~ Baart ~ Boort /baard/ [bQ:at] ~ [bo:at] 'beard'
Aars ~ Oors ~ Ors /aars/ [?Q:as] ~ [?o:as] 'arse', 'ass'
Fahrt ~ Fohrt /faart/ [fQ:at] ~ [fo:at] 'trip', 'drive', 'ride'
Aarn ~ Oorn ~ Orn /aarn/ [?Q:an] ~ [?o:an] 'harvest' (cf. 'earn')
Schaar(d) ~ Schoor(d) /Saar(d)/ [SQ:a(t)] ~ [So:a(t)] 'cliff', 'shard'
Maard ~ Moord /maard/ [mQ:at] ~ [mo:at] 'marten'

And it is pronounced quite differently from /aa/ not preceding /r/:

faken ~ foken /faak at n/ ['fQ:kN=] ~ ['fo:kN=] 'often'
Aas ~ Oos /aas/ [?Q:s] ~ [?o:s] 'carrion', 'evil person'
Hahn ~ Hohn ~ Haan /haan/ [hQ:n] ~ [ho:n] 'rooster'
Maat /maat/ [mQ:t] ~ [mo:t] 'mate'

In several cases where Dutch writes <aar> and you write <aer> in
Zeelandic, Low Saxon has /eir/ (though unfortunately spelled <eer> in
Germany).  Note that /ei/ is realized as /E.I/ or as /a.I/, depending on
the dialect, but in some dialects (e.g., those in the Lower Elbe area)
/eir/ (i.e., /ei/ followed by syllable-final /r/) is pronounced as
though it had a long /ii/: [i:3]; e.g.,

Eerde ~ Eerd' ~ Eer ~ Ier /eird@/ ['?E.Irde] ~ [?E.I3t] ~ [?E:I3]
   ~ [?i:3] 'earth', 'soil'
Peerd ~ Pierd /peird/ [pE.I3t] ~ [pi:3t] 'horse'
Peerde ~ Peerd' ~ Peer ~ Pier /peird@/ [pE.I3de] ~ [pE:I3d] ~
   [pE:I3]~ [pi:3] 'horses'
weerd ~ weert ~ wiert /weirt/ [vE.I3t] ~ [vi:3t] 'worth', 'worthy'
Heern ~ Hiern /heirn/ [he.I3n] ~ [hi:3n] 'herring' (Dutch _haring_,
   dialectal/archaic German _Harung_)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 16:16:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:16:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.05 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.091651.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: Translation

Hello Ron / lowlanders,

As it is now approaching Father's Day in the UK, I was interested in how
the
various members of the LLG would say ,"Wishing you a happy Father's
Day," so
I could put the various translations on my father's card.

Regards / groetens,
David Elsworth.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Hi, David!  Good to hear from you.

June 16th is Father's Day in the United States, Canada, Argentina,
Panama and Japan as well.

In Germany, Father's Day has been usurping the Christian holiday
Ascencion Day (which is an official holiday), this year on May 9.  To
find out how it is celebrated, please see our own Clara
Kramer-Freudenthal's Low Saxon description (with my translation):
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/himmelfohrt.html

If my father were still alive, I would write (in Northern Low Saxon (Low
German)) this:

     "Mit leve Grötens un Wünsch to'n Vadderdag"

("With dear/loving greetings/regards and wishes on Father's Day")

Best wishes to all fathers on Lowlands-L!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 20:23:09 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:23:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.132309.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (02) [E]

Ron assumed:

> It seems to me that what you write _ae_ in Zeelandic is an allophone of
> the short phoneme /a/ when it is followed by syllable-final /r/.  It is
> also a special allophone in most Low Saxon (Low German) dialect, where
> /ar/ tends to be phonetically realized as something close to long /aa/
> in Standard Dutch: [a:].  Or it could be a long /aa/ followed by /r/.
> Thus, Low Saxon _Arm_ 'arm' is pronounced like English Australian "arm":
> [?a:m].
>
> Thus Zeelandic:
> laerze /larz@/ ~ /laarz@/ boot
> aerde /ard@/ ~ /aard@/ soil
> waerd /ward/ ~ /waard/ worth
> aerm /arm/ ~ /aarm/ poor
> waerm /warm/ ~ /waarm/ warm

The spelling _ae_ stands for approximately the same
sound as in the English word 'hair' or the French
'populair' rather than the English Australian 'arm'
you mentioned.  It is closer to the e in Dutch 'kern'
than to the a in Aus. Engl. 'arm' anyhow.
This is the case for words where standard Dutch
has [a:] followed by an r. The spelling varies from
_ae_ or _ei_ to _ee_ (paerd, peerd, peird).

In other cases where Dutch has an [a:], Zeeuws
usually has about the same pronounciation
as described above, but in some areas (or in
some specific words outside these areas),
the '[a:]' as in the English word 'deer'. So that
sounds somewhat 'Frisian'. This is usually
spelled as _ea_ or _aè_

North Zeeland/isle of Zuid-Beveland/Dutch:
straete / streate / straat
staee / steae / staan
etc.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Marco.

Either I misunderstood you or you have missed my point.  I did *not*
assume that what in Zeelandic you write <aer> is the same sound as that
in Low Saxon (Low German) <ar>.  In fact, its exact pronunciation is
irrelevant to the discussion; relevant is only that you perceive it as
different.

What I am talking about is not phonetic script (which is to be used for
scientific purposes) but normal orthography based on phonemes (i.e.,
*underlying* phones, as opposed to phonologically produced allophones on
the phonetic surface).  My hypothesis was (and still is) that this
written <ae> before /r/ is really an allophone of the phoneme /a/; i.e.,
it is pronounced "colored" by the following /r/.  Unless you can show me
that *genuine* /ar/ (not /aar/) is pronounced differently, I keep
assuming that what you write as <aer> is underlyingly really /ar/ and
thus ought to be written <ar> in a truly phonemically based system.
Remember that I am not comparing Zeelandic with Dutch, that I have
merely observed what I believe to be a *systematic* parallel between
/ar/ in Zeelandic and /ar/ Low Saxon.

So, what you would need to show me to convince me is that and how
Zeelandic dialects treat the following phonemic sequences differently:

/är/*
/ar/
/aar/

(* your <aer>, could also be written /ær/, and could also be /aer/ if it
is a diphthong)

By the way, this /ar/ articulation appears to be generally misunderstood
in the Low-Saxon-speaking communities in the Netherlands, which is why
they tend to treat /a/ before /r/ as though it were a separate phoneme
and thus write it <aa><r> (e.g., <aarm>, as opposed to <ao><r> or
<oa><r> for /aar/, e.g., <baord>), likewise phonetically lengthened /a/
before /l/ and nasals; e.g., /al/ <aal> (instead of simply <al> for
[a.l]), /land/ <laand> (instead of simply <land> for [la.nt]).

Writing systems under development for languages so far without official
orthographies tend to be too complicated because the creators do not
(fully) understand the concept of "underlying" and "phoneme" and thus
tend to try to aim at writing "phonetically," which entails trying to
write perceived details that orthographically are redundant.  In my
opinion, this tends to be reinforced by obsessive reference to the
orthographic systems of the respective power languages.  Speakers of
Zeelandic, Low Saxon and Limburgish in the Dutch-dominated areas want to
create writing systems for their languages from a Dutch orthographic
reference point, trying to make Dutch speakers pronounce their languages
more or less correctly when they read them.  Likewise, speakers of Low
Saxon (Low German) and Limburgish in German-dominated areas want to
write their languages in such a way that German speakers can pronounce
them when they read them.  This entails the need to add detail that
would be redundant if the language and its orthography were thought of
as independent, as not beholden to and created for outsiders. (For
instance, an example of a pretty much independent system is that of
Catalan.  While it uses a "typically Romance" writing system, it does
not take Castilian (Spanish), French or Italian orthographies as its
reference points even though it is dominated by these languages.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 20:28:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:28:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.132819.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (02) [E]

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (04) [E]
>
> Frank Verhoft wrote:
>
>> Old Dutch _e_ before _r_ got stretched to a very open
>> /e:/. In Middle Dutch two forms are attested:
>> _pa(e)rt_ and _pe(e)rt_.
>> Modern *Standard* Dutch _paard_ is due to influence of
>> the Holland and Zeeuws dialects in which the result of
>> the /e/+r > open /e:/ and /a:/ merged. (Cf. Van Loon).
>> I think most dialects spoken in Flanders still have
>> the long (and open) /e:/ sound.
>> paard: _peerd_ (or _pjeed_)
>> paarden: _peerde_
>> paardje: _perdje_ (short /e/)

In my Flanders region I would spell
peird (ei like in French è) peirdje (also: perdje- perdjie)

> I think it isn't correct that Frank mentioned Zeeuws in
> this respect. In all dialects of Zeeuws, 'horse' is _peerd_,
> _perd_ or _paerd_.
> Some other examples (all three the above spellings,
> _ae_, _ee_, _e_, are used, but I just stick to _ae_ for
> now):

For peird, we have also : hors (horsen) ros. My city is called
'Roeselare'
(lare= empty space in the woods where horses(roes=ros) could be hold)

> aerdappel (or _petaote_ in some dialects): potatoe
> laerze: boot
> aerde: soil
> waerd: worth
> kaeze: candle
> aerm: poor
> waerm: warm
> etc.

We say:
FL eirappels (patatten)
FL botten (boots) and never laarzen
FL eirde (weireld)
FL kei(r)se  kei(r)si
FL aorme aormi
FL warme warmi

So not quiet the same.
> Regards,
>
> Marco
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Marco,
>
> It seems to me that what you write _ae_ in Zeelandic is an allophone of
> the short phoneme /a/ when it is followed by syllable-final /r/.  It is
> also a special allophone in most Low Saxon (Low German) dialect, where
> /ar/ tends to be phonetically realized as something close to long /aa/
> in Standard Dutch: [a:].  Or it could be a long /aa/ followed by /r/.
> Thus, Low Saxon _Arm_ 'arm' is pronounced like English Australian "arm":
> [?a:m].
>
> Thus Zeelandic:
> laerze /larz@/ ~ /laarz@/ boot
> aerde /ard@/ ~ /aard@/ soil
> waerd /ward/ ~ /waard/ worth
> aerm /arm/ ~ /aarm/ poor
> waerm /warm/ ~ /waarm/ warm
>
> The spelling <aer> then, in my opinion, is an attempt at phonetic
> representation, is, theoretically speaking, redundant as long as the
> reader knows that <ar> or <aar> has that particular pronunciation.
>
> "What about Zeelandic _kaeze_ 'candle' then," you might ask.  I assume
> that there is an /r/ underlying (/karz@/ ~ /kaarz@/) but not spelled.
> (Cf. German _Kerze_ 'candle')
>
> I tend to favor the theory that it is a short /a/ lenthened by /r/, as
> in Low Saxon:
>
> arm /arm/ [?a:m] 'poor' (= Austr. "arm")
FL aormi aorme
> harm /harm/ [ha:m] 'harm' (= Austr. "harm")
> warm /varm/ [va:m] 'warm'
FL  warme
> Hart /hart/ [ha:t] 'heart' (= Austr. "heart")
FL herte
> Karr /kar/ [ka:] 'cart', 'wagon', 'barrow' (= Austr. "car")
FL karre (celtic word)
> Karn /karn/ [ka:n] 'kernel', 'pip', 'nucleus'
FL kerni kerne
> Arf /arf/ [?a:f] 'pea'
FL erwete
> Kark /kark/ [ka:k] 'church' (= Austr. "to kark")
FL kerki kerke
> scharp /Sarp/ [Sa:p] 'sharp' (= Austr. "sharp")
FL skerp skerpe sherpe
> Wark /vark/ [va:k] 'work'
FL werk (arbeid)
> Farken /fark at n/ ['fa:kN=] 'piglet'
FL big (zwijnejong) biggetje fikk'n
>
> Versus *long* /aa/ followed by syllable-final /r/, which is pronounced
> quite differently:
>
> Aard ~ Aart ~ Oort ~ Ort /aard/ [?Q:at] ~ [?o:at] 'type', 'kind'
FL aord (naorie)
> Haar ~ Hoor /haar/ [kQ:a] ~ [ho:a] 'hair'
FL aor
> Baard ~ Baart ~ Boort /baard/ [bQ:at] ~ [bo:at] 'beard'
FL baord
> Aars ~ Oors ~ Ors /aars/ [?Q:as] ~ [?o:as] 'arse', 'ass'
FL ei(r)s
> Fahrt ~ Fohrt /faart/ [fQ:at] ~ [fo:at] 'trip', 'drive', 'ride'
FL vaort
> Aarn ~ Oorn ~ Orn /aarn/ [?Q:an] ~ [?o:an] 'harvest' (cf. 'earn')
...?   We have FL " herfst "(vallen van't blad)(E = autumn) biginning of
the
harvest ?
> Schaar(d) ~ Schoor(d) /Saar(d)/ [SQ:a(t)] ~ [So:a(t)] 'cliff', 'shard'
FL skaore skaori sjgaore
> Maard ~ Moord /maard/ [mQ:at] ~ [mo:at] 'marten'
>
> And it is pronounced quite differently from /aa/ not preceding /r/:
>
> faken ~ foken /faak at n/ ['fQ:kN=] ~ ['fo:kN=] 'often'
FL vaok
> Aas ~ Oos /aas/ [?Q:s] ~ [?o:s] 'carrion', 'evil person'
FL aoze aozi
> Hahn ~ Hohn ~ Haan /haan/ [hQ:n] ~ [ho:n] 'rooster'
FL aone aoni
> Maat /maat/ [mQ:t] ~ [mo:t] 'mate'
FL maot
>
> In several cases where Dutch writes <aar> and you write <aer> in
> Zeelandic, Low Saxon has /eir/ (though unfortunately spelled <eer> in
> Germany).  Note that /ei/ is realized as /E.I/ or as /a.I/, depending on
> the dialect, but in some dialects (e.g., those in the Lower Elbe area)
> /eir/ (i.e., /ei/ followed by syllable-final /r/) is pronounced as
> though it had a long /ii/: [i:3]; e.g.,
>
> Eerde ~ Eerd' ~ Eer ~ Ier /eird@/ ['?E.Irde] ~ [?E.I3t] ~ [?E:I3]
> ~ [?i:3] 'earth', 'soil'
> Peerd ~ Pierd /peird/ [pE.I3t] ~ [pi:3t] 'horse'
> Peerde ~ Peerd' ~ Peer ~ Pier /peird@/ [pE.I3de] ~ [pE:I3d] ~
> [pE:I3]~ [pi:3] 'horses'
> weerd ~ weert ~ wiert /weirt/ [vE.I3t] ~ [vi:3t] 'worth', 'worthy'
FL weirt
> Heern ~ Hiern /heirn/ [he.I3n] ~ [hi:3n] 'herring' (Dutch _haring_,
FL aorink
> dialectal/archaic German _Harung_)
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Regards
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene (Roeselare)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 21:23:20 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:23:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.05 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.142320.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

I keep getting server error messages telling me that LL-L cannot be
delivered to the following address:

                  elnmall at corp.earthlink.net

But this address is not subscribed to our list, and the error messages
are becoming quite an annoyance.  I assume that it is someone's
forwarding address and that the owner is still subscribed under a
different address.

I would like the owner to do something about it.  If he or she wishes to
remain anonymous, he or she only needs to unsubscribe (the subscribed
address) at <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
or by sending the message "signoff lowlands-l" to
<listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org>.   He or she could also write to me
(sassisch at yahoo.com), and I will deal with it quietly and without
causing any embarrassment.  (All I need is the name to identify the
subscriber.)  Once unsubscribed, he or she could then, if so inclined,
ask me to resubscribe him or her, again without needing to feel
embarrassed.

Everyone else, please bear this in mind in case you have LL-L mail
forwarded to another address.

This is the time when subscribers in the Northern Hemisphere are just
about ready to take their summer breaks (especially those who study or
teach at colleges).  If you do not wish that LL-L be sent to you while
you are away, please just unsubscribe, and upon your return write to me
or reapply via our form (http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/) and
indentify yourselves as returning subscribers.

Some of you keep making the same mistakes in their posting submissions.
The most frequent error is not putting one's name on one's submission.
Remember, anonymous or semi-anonymous postings are not permitted, and
consistent absence of identification will eventually result in one's
submissions being ignored.

Rules regarding subscription and submission are found at this address
(in English, Limburgish, Low Saxon (Low German) and Dutch):

           http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome those who joined us
recently.  They are from Belgium (Brussels), Cyprus (Mesachrio), France
(?), Germany (Griepswohld/Greifswald), Russia (Vladimir), Ukraine
(Simferopol) and the USA (Chandler, IL), and one new subscriber (who
joined us today) chose not to share her whereabouts.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 23:51:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:51:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.05 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.165154.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Those of you who are interested in older language varieties *and* in
cooking (and/or eating) will have a field day or two with the following
online sources:

Keukenboek
(UB Gent Hs. 1035, 15th century, Middle Dutch)
(http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/serrure.htm)

A lovely sample for those of you who like to eat swan neck and head:

"Den hals van den swane -- suldi snijden al omtrent
tfel bi den scouderen, ende treckent uut metten hoofde, maect
een faerzel van swijnen vlessche ghesoden met xii eyeren,
cappet te gadere, dan wrivet soffraen, pepere, ghinghebare,
caneele ende nagelkins, ghetempert met wijne, deesemt
te gadere, ende die dodere van vi eyeren binnen juwen
faersele ende dan vult al tfel van den halse toten hoofde,
ende bendet. Ten hende dan steket lanx duer den hals ende
duer thooft, ende maect deegh van bloemmen van eyeren
ende doreret omtrent den hals, ende dan legget voor een
cleen vier."

***

A Middle Low Saxon (Low German) Cookbook (15th century)
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/mndk.htm

A sample: a "good, dry" vinegar made from crab apples and sloe berries
(! sounds like it would make your teeth feel _slee_):

"Item wyltu maken eynen guden etick van watere, so nym slen unde
holteppel. Brick se aff twysschen beyden vrowendaghen yn deme hervest,
jomer mëer jo lever. Stot se cleyne in eyneme moser. Make darüet klumpe
also wuste, legge se up brede unde sette se yn eynen heten backoven, dar
brot yn ghebacken sy, unde lat se darynne stan so lange, also de oven
warm ys. So ys dat eyn gud droghe etyck."

***

Two fifteenth-century cookery-books (in Middle English)
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=longhead&byte=3356093

A sample: Mussels in the shell:

"Muscules in Shelle. ¶ Take and pike faire musculis, And cast hem in a
potte; and caste hem to, myced oynons, And a good quantite of peper and
wyne, And a lite vynegre; And assone as thei bigynneth to gape, take hem
from þe fire, and serue hit forthe with the same broth in a dissh al
hote."

***

Liber Cure Cocorum (14th century? Middle English)
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/lcc/
Facsimile

***

Het Eerste Nederlandsche Gedrukte Kookbek,
Brussel, Thomas Van der Noot, c. 1510
(Middle Dutch, facsimile)
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/For_Translation/Het_Eerste_Nederlandsche/Het_Eerste_Nederlandsche.html

***

Forme of Cury (14th century, Middle English, facsimile)
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/foc/
(A rhyming cookbook!)

***

Pages from The Closet of Sir Kenelme Digbie
http://realbeer.com/spencer/digby.html
(1669, English)

***

These and other interesting antique treasures can be found at Greg
Lindahl's site:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food.html

Enjoy!

Reinhard/Ron
(Time to get ready some dinner)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 23:53:56 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:53:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.05 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.165356.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.05 (03) [E]

>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Translation
>
>Hello Ron / lowlanders,
>
>As it is now approaching Father's Day in the UK...
>David Elsworth.
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Holidays
>
>Hi, David!  Good to hear from you.
>
>June 16th is Father's Day in the United States, Canada, Argentina,
>Panama and Japan as well.
>
>In Germany, Father's Day has been usurping the Christian holiday
>Ascencion Day (which is an official holiday), this year on May 9.  To
>find out how it is celebrated, please see our own Clara
>Kramer-Freudenthal's Low Saxon description (with my translation):
>http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/himmelfohrt.html

Hello David, hello Ron, hello to all the others, too !
As Ron told in Germany there is a mixing up Christian Ascension Day with
Father's Day but in parts of Eastern Friesland we have a further (but
more
and more vanishing)tradition associated with this day apart from both
the
other meanings. It is said to be due to an old legend about the wedding
of
a "hovedling's" [chief's] daughter but it really seems to be an older
custom deriving from pre-Christian time. Children collect moss and
flowers
of different size and colours to lay pictures with. These are
called "bru:dpad" or German "Brautpfad" (bride's path). Sometimes they
are
just laid in the sand, sometimes in a sand-filled fruit-case to get
exhibited beside the house-door or on the pavement in front of the
house.
In recent years it is made a competition and the winner is offered a
small
gift by a jury.

Kind regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 14:38:59 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:38:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.073859.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (05) [E]

Frank wrote:

> In my Flanders region I would spell
> peird (ei like in French è) peirdje (also: perdje- perdjie)

This spelling is not uncommon in Zeeland
as well. It stands for the exact same pronoun-
ciation as the _ae_ that is most commonly
used in Zeeland. So:

aerappel = eirappel
paerd = peird
aerde = aerde
waereld / wèreld = weireld

But:

waerme <-> warme
aerme <-> aorme

Ron wrote:

"Either I misunderstood you or you have missed my point.  I did *not*
assume that what in Zeelandic you write <aer> is the same sound as that
in Low Saxon (Low German) <ar>.  In fact, its exact pronunciation is
irrelevant to the discussion; relevant is only that you perceive it as
different.

What I am talking about is not phonetic script (which is to be used for
scientific purposes) but normal orthography based on phonemes (i.e.,
*underlying* phones, as opposed to phonologically produced allophones on
the phonetic surface).  My hypothesis was (and still is) that this
written <ae> before /r/ is really an allophone of the phoneme /a/; i.e.,
it is pronounced "colored" by the following /r/."

You're absolutely correct. I think I didn't
take enough time to read your posting
thoroughly enough. That's propbably because
I always try to read all postings during a
coffee-break from work ;-)

Although in most Zeelandic dialects, there is
no real opposition between the pronounciation
of <ae> before r and <ae> in other positions,
the dialects of Zeeland Flanders and Zuid-Beve-
land show that your assumption is right.
Taking these dialects and the dialect of Walcheren
as an example:

Walcheren - Z-Beveland - Z-Flanders - Dutch
straete - streate - straote - straat
vraege - vreagen - vraogn - vragen
aerm - aerm - aerm - arm
Gentenaer - Gentenaer - Gentenaer - Gentenaar

but there are some exceptions:

baerd - baerd - baord - baard*
mae - mae - mao - maar
dea (!) - dea (!) - dao - daar**
wea (!) - wea (!) - wao - waar**
maerte - maerte - maorte - maart
(frinzen) - aorebezems - (frenzn) - aardbeien

*Perhaps this is because 'baard' originally
had a short 'a': _bard_.

**Note that _dea_ and _wea_ (or _dì_ and
_wì_) are the only words in the Walcheren
dialect I can think of that have _ea_

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 14:40:55 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:40:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.06 (02) [E/S]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.074055.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Andy \(Scots-Online\)" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: Grammar [E/S]

John M. Tait wrote:
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.29 (01) [E]

>Just to drop a wild card in here, can anyone explain the North East
>Scots form _div_, which is used only as an auxiliary verb, distinct from
>_dae_ (pronounced 'dee' in the North East, and which should, strictly
>speaking, be spelt <dui>) which is used with the other meaning of Eng.
>'do'. For example, you can say 'fit div ee dee wi 'is?' (What do you do
>with this?) but not 'fit dee ee div wi 'is'?. Scots dictionaries refer
>to _div_ as 'emphatic and interrogative', but in my experience of
>'broad' North East Doric, 'div' and 'dee' are mutually exclusive (I have
>heard only young urban speakers using 'dee' as an auxiliary verb) and I
>suspect that the lexicographical perception of a connotation of emphasis
>comes from areas where the verb form is dying out - as it appears to
>have done in most parts of Scotland, although it is also used in
>Geordie. (On the other hand, it may be that use of auxiliary _do_ is
>usually emphatic or interrogative anyway, even in English, and that this
>is a roundabout non-technical way of saying that _div_ is a
>modal/auxiliary form.)

Gaun bi the SND _div_ is uised emphatic. The 'v' haes come aboot bi
analogy wi _hiv_ the empahtic furm o _hae_.
Grant & Dixon 1921 says _div_ is interrogative an for ordinar emphatic.
As tae the Geordie furm the EDD gies _div_  is uised whan the wird is
afore a vouel or a mute _h_. Afore a consonant _de_ is uised.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 20:34:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:34:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.06 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.133424.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Patricia Beving <patricia.beving at libertysurf.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.05 (06) [E]

Thank you for your welcoming message. the new French subscriber (from
Versailles)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 20:36:01 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:36:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.06 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.133601.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Patricia Beving <patricia.beving at libertysurf.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.05 (03) [E]

In France, we would simply say "Bonne fête papa" as a direct address
Patricia

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 20:59:25 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:59:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (05) [E/F]
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From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.05 (01) [E]

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]
>
> > Ron wrote:
> > >(By the way, Low Saxon _leeg_ is semantically interesting in that it
> > >means both 'low' (and also 'flat', thus _Leegland_ 'low-lying, flat
> > >land') and 'bad' (> 'inferior', 'evil', 'naughty').)
>
> The same goes for Zeêuws: _leege_ or _leage_ means
> both 'low' and 'flat', although under recent Dutch
> influence, forms like _laoge_ and _laege_ become
> more and more widespread.
> I think that in Dutch _leeg_ originally also meant
> 'low'.

Dat tink ik net, it Holla^nske wurd _leeg_ komt fan _ledig_, in wurd
dat troch myn etymologysk wurdboek fan in Ald-Germaansk *lithug- komt
(en de^r't de betsjutting net alheel du'dlik fan is, yn 'e rjochting fan
"frij, net bu^n" alteast..) Besibbe is it Fryske "liddich" en de^rfan
o^flaat : "leech".
(_liddige tiid_, mar _in leech kopke_, bg.)

In oar wurd is Frysk _leech_, Nl _laag_ ND _leig_/_leeg_.
Dit komt fan Ald-Germaansk *la^gi-, en yn it Holla^nsk hat de -i gjin
omlu^d bewurke, en it de oare neamde talen a^l. Dit wurd is besibbe
oan Nl _liggen_, Frysk _lizze_.

Mei freonlike groetenis,

Henno Brandsma

-----

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Yn it Nedersaksysk (Nederdútsk, Platdútsk) fan Noardddútslân sizze wy
_leddig_ ['lEdIC] foar "leech" (Hollânsk _ledig_, Ingelsk _empty_,
_vacant_, Dútsk _ledig_*, _leer_).

(* no gewoanlik "niet getrouwd," "unmarried;" mar Nedersaksysk _leddig_
(1) 'leech', (2) "niet getrouwd")

Freonlike groetenis!
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 23:53:50 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:53:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.165350.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]

Hi, Randy, Ron,

the Low Saxon "leeg" in our dialecct only stands for "bad, naughty",
near to "evil".

I'm sure, Ron knows and just is making a joke with it.

We always use to say "sied [si:d]" for "low"; and in Upper German there
is
the "Sied-lung [si:dlung]" for those locations poor people had to
emigrate
to for establishing a farm.

Regards

Fiete.

-----

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Moin, Fiete!

Yes, I do know, and ... well, I'm only somewhat joking.  Let's write it
down to "poetic license with a slight smirk"

It is quite correct to say that the meaning 'low(-lying)' and '(low and)
flat' for (_lage_ > /leig'_) _leeg_ has gotten lost in many Low Saxon
(Low German) dialects of Northern Germany.  However, it has not gotten
lost in *all* of them.  Take a look at various dictionaries, and you
will see that these glosses are always listed besides the derived
meaning ('low' >) 'inferior' (> 'bad' > 'badly behaved' > 'evil').

Yes, I used to say _Siedland_ instead of _Leegland_.  However, (1) many
people, including speakers of Low Saxon, did not understand _Siedland_,
and (2) _Siedland_ to me denotes a smaller area, a stretch of low-lying
land (usually below sea level) that is prone to flooding, also a marsh,
or a depression (something I'd call _Niederung_ in German, which, sure,
you *could* stretch to denote a large area).  (The adjective _sied_
[si:t] ~ _sied'_ [si:.d] means 'shallow' first and foremost.  I always
thought it was related to German _seicht_ 'shallow'.)

So we get:

English:                Lowlands
Mainland Scots:         Lawlands
Ulster Scots:           Lallans
Shetlandic:             Laich Laands
W. Frisian:             Lege Lannen
Saterland E. Frisian:   Lijge Lounde
Mooring N. Frisian:     Läige Lönje
Amrum N. Frisian:       Liach Lunen
Dutch:                  Laagland
Zeelandic:              Laege Landen
Afrikaans:              Lae Lande
Stellingwarf Low Saxon: Lege Lanen
Twente Low Saxon:       Leeglanden
Mennonite Low Saxon:    Läaglaund
Northern Low Saxon:     Leegland (Siedland?)
Limburgish:             Liege Lenj ~ Leig Laan

So, for the sake of consistency and mutual comprehension I just choose
to use _Leegland_, _Leeglannen_ and _Leeglanner_, certainly don't
*dictate* it (wouldn't give you bad marks or a slap with my ruler on
your fingers if you chose to say _Siedland_).  And, yes, admittedly,
_Leegland_ is vaguely reminiscent of English "badlands" (an arid, rugged
region), and I kind of enjoy the "naughty" connotation too (Reinhard
being related to Reynard [de Voss]).  :)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 23:59:20 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:59:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammatik" 2002.06.06 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.165920.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]

Ron, Leeg- un Lowlanders,
Jo: givv't hier ook:

"Dat hevv'k tau liek wüsst"
( Hab' ich auch gleich gewusst)
(I got to know it at the same time)

oder:
"Hei is tau wegloopen"
(Dann ist er weg gelaufen)
(Then he run away; [perhaps: "immediately"))

Ditt "tau" kunn obers ook'n "door, in disse Wies, Tiid" ween, dücht mi.
(Das "zu" könnte aber auch, völlig anders als vorher, bedeuten: "Da,
damals,
dann")
("tau" could be very different from "to do": "then, at that time").

'n Oobend

Fiete.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 00:01:26 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 17:01:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.06 (08) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.170126.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 06.JUN.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: "phonolögy" 2002.06.05 (02)

Hi,

Marco evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl wrote:

....Some other examples (all three the above spellings,
>_ae_, _ee_, _e_, are used, but I just stick to _ae_ for
>now):
>
>aerdappel (or _petaote_ in some dialects): potatoe
>aerze: boot
>aerde: soil
>waerd: worth
>kaeze: candle
>aerm: poor
>waerm: warm....

Very similar in our dialect:

aierd: soil (but too: "die Grund", "the (female) ground")
waierd: worth
kaierz. candle

but:
aarm: poor
waarm: warm  (Subst.: "de Waarmst", "the warm thing").

Op Ron siin Anter koom ick woll looter trüch, door is'n heel Bült
fiegeliinschen un, föör mi, neu'n Kroom inne.

Regards

Fiete.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 15:04:48 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:04:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (04) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.080448.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammatik" 2002.06.06 (07) [E/LS]

"Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>:
>Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]
>
>Ron, Leeg- un Lowlanders,
>Jo: givv't hier ook:
>
>"Dat hevv'k tau liek wüsst"
>( Hab' ich auch gleich gewusst)
>(I got to know it at the same time)

Isn't this more like "I knew it (knew it was like that) right away /
immediately" ?

Could this "tau" correspond to Dutch "toen", or even "toch"? In
Dutch I'd say (assuming I understand the meaning of the original
correctly):
"Ik wist het toch meteen al" (of: "... gelijk al").
Of:
"Toen wist ik al hoe het was / hoe het zat / hoe het in elkaar zat"

>oder:
>"Hei is tau wegloopen"
>(Dann ist er weg gelaufen)
>(Then he run away; [perhaps: "immediately"))

>Ditt "tau" kunn obers ook'n "door, in disse Wies, Tiid" ween, dücht mi.
>(Das "zu" könnte aber auch, völlig anders als vorher, bedeuten: "Da,
>damals,
>dann")

Dutch "toen" has that meaning too.

>("tau" could be very different from "to do": "then, at that time").

I think so.

Het WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal) zegt over "toen":
==
TOEN — daarnaast (thans nog gewest. en in spreektaal) TOE —, bijw.
en voegw. Mnl. toe, toen. De vormen toe, toen zijn door sandhi uit
doe, resp. doen ontstaan, b. v. in de verbinding ende doe, waaruit
enddoe, entoe. Zie verder Mnl. W., DOE en de etym. wdb.
==
en dan, bij trefwoord DOE:
==
DOE, bijw. Mnl. doe, mnd. dô, ohd. dhuo, dho, mhd. duo, do, os. þuo,
þo, eene afl. van den stam van het aanwijzend vnw. die, verg. ook
daar en dan. Daarnaast, met een reeds oud suffix, Doen, mnl. doen,
mnd. don. Thans verouderd.
==

Er lijkt geen verband te zijn met het werkwoord "doen".

PS. Sommigen op de lijst herkennen misschien mijn naam. Tussen 1995
en 2000 las ik deze lijst met tussenpozen ook al, en schreef soms
ook wel iets. Ik ben recentelijk weer mee gaan lezen.

--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 21 May 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Ruud,

> Could this "tau" correspond to Dutch "toen", or even "toch"? In
> Dutch I'd say (assuming I understand the meaning of the original
> correctly):
> "Ik wist het toch meteen al" (of: "... gelijk al").

Ik glööv', Du hest dat recht.  In annere neddersasassische
(nedderdüütsche) Dialekten seggt wi in düsse Fäll ook "dunn" or "donn"
("doen" or "don" up de nedderlandsche Schrievwies' schreven).

>"Dat hevv'k tau liek wüsst"
>( Hab' ich auch gleich gewusst)
>(I got to know it at the same time)

Ik wöör seggen: "Dat hev 'k dunn gliek(s)/foorts wüsst."

Kannst ook seggen "Dat hev 'k denn gliek(s)/foorts wüsst."

>"Hei is tau wegloopen"
>(Dann ist er weg gelaufen)
>(Then he run away; [perhaps: "immediately"))

Ik wöör seggen: "He is dunn weglopen."

Kumpelmenten!

Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 14:49:53 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 07:49:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2002.06.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.074953.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "yi yi yathawtaradaewe" <ngwekhin at asia1.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.06 (08) [E/LS]

Dear sir

Good day! Thank you very muvh for all lcetures notes. I would like to
study evertime.i hope I will understand GRADUALLY.I WILL TRY SO HARD.

SINCERELY

 NGWE KHIN

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Introduction

Lowlanders,

Ngwe Khin has just joined us from Cyprus.  Going by the name, it seems
that Myanmar (Burmese) _Nay kaung-par-dey_ is as appropriate a welcome
as is Greek _Xaíro polý_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 14:53:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 07:53:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.07 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.075329.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: Lexicon

Sorry, all of You,

I've tried the "eight" , "ought" , "acht", "eigen", "echt", "ächten".- -
-
No one interested at all.

New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but: "horse" (and
"hengist") in modern English.

What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most times!

I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to convince me! "HORSE"
seems much older.

Bis denne

Fiete.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 14:51:42 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 07:51:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2002.06.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.075142.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: Language Politics?

In a recent article in the Times called The Englishing of the Earth it
was
suggested that the Netherlands was considering holding all further
education in English.

Along with a number of other factual flaws in the article I considered
this to be one as well.

I'm sure many of our members can shed some light on the question of
whether there is there any truth in this.

I am aware that  much further education uses English  because many (if
not
most) research papers are published in it.

Please enlighten me.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 18:40:22 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:40:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.07 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.114022.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 07.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Once in a while subscribers ask on the List or privately about learning
basic concepts of phonology (or just want to find out what phonology is
and how it differs from phonetics).

Below please find a short list of more or less convenient resources that
can help you get started.

Best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron

***

ONLINE:

Phonology
http://www.celt.stir.ac.uk/staff/HIGDOX/STEPHEN/PHONO/PHONOLG.HTM

De klank van Nederland
Onze taal
http://www.onzetaal.nl/dossier/tongval/t01.html

Methods of synchronic linguistic analysis
(Encyclopædia Britannica Article, if you can access it):
http://www.search.eb.com/eb/article?eu=119040&tocid=35098&query=phonology

***

OFFLINE:

Understanding Phonology
Carlos Gussenhoven, University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, and HAIKE
JACOBS, Free University of Amsterdam, The Netherlands; 304 pp.; 2
linecuts;
0-340-69218-9

An Introduction to Phonology (Learning About Language)
Francis Katamba, Addison-Wesley Pub Co; ISBN: 058229150X; (November
1989)

A Course in Phonology
Iggy Roca, Wyn Johnson, Aggy Roca, Blackwell Publishers; ISBN:
0631213465; (February 1999)

Phonology : Analysis and Theory
Edmund Gussmann, Cambridge University Press; ISBN: 0521574285; (March
2002)

An Introduction to Phonetics and Phonology
(Blackwell Textbooks in Linguistics, 9)
John Clark, Colin Yallop, Blackwell Publishers; ISBN: 0631194525; 2nd
edition (July 1995)

Fundamentals of Phonetics: A Practical Guide for Students
(with FREE Audio CD)
Larry H. Small, Allyn & Bacon; ISBN: 0205273319; 1 edition (November 13,
1998)

***

Useful definitions from the online version of the _Encyclopædia
Britannica_:

PHONOLOGY:
study of the sound patterns that occur within languages. Some linguists
include phonetics, the study of the production and description of speech
sounds, within the study of phonology.
Diachronic (historical) phonology examines and constructs theories about
the changes and modifications in speech sounds and sound systems over a
period of time. For example, it is concerned with the process by which
the English words "sea" and "see," once pronounced with different vowel
sounds (as indicated by the spelling), have come to be pronounced alike
today. Synchronic (descriptive) phonology investigates sounds at a
single stage in the development of a language, to discover the sound
patterns that can occur. For example, in English, nt and dm can appear
within or at the end of words ("rent," "admit") but not at the
beginning.

PHONETICS:
the study of speech sounds and their physiological production and
acoustic qualities. It deals with the configurations of the vocal tract
used to produce speech sounds (articulatory phonetics), the acoustic
properties of speech sounds (acoustic phonetics), and the manner of
combining sounds so as to make syllables, words, and sentences
(linguistic phonetics).

PHONEME:
in linguistics, smallest unit of speech distinguishing one word (or word
element) from another, as the sound p in "tap," which separates that
word from "tab," "tag," and "tan." A phoneme may have more than one
variant, called an allophone (q.v.), which functions as a single sound;
for example, the p's of "pat," "spat," and "tap" differ slightly
phonetically, but that difference, determined by context, has no
significance in English. In some languages, where the variant sounds of
p can change meaning, they are classified as separate phonemes-e.g., in
Thai the aspirated p (pronounced with an accompanying puff of air) and
unaspirated p are distinguished one from the other.
Phonemes are based on spoken language and may be recorded with special
symbols, like those of the International Phonetic Alphabet. In
transcription, linguists conventionally place symbols for phonemes
between slash marks: /p/. The term phoneme is usually restricted to
vowels and consonants, but some linguists extend its application to
cover phonologically relevant differences of pitch, stress, and rhythm.
Nowadays the phoneme has a less central place in phonological theory
than it used to have, especially in American linguistics. Many linguists
regard the phoneme as a set of simultaneous distinctive features, rather
than as an unanalyzable unit.

ALLOPHONE:
one of the phonetically distinct variants of a phoneme (q.v.). The
occurrence of one allophone rather than another is usually determined by
its position in the word (initial, final, medial, etc.) or by its
phonetic environment. Speakers of a language often have difficulty in
hearing the phonetic differences between allophones of the same phoneme,
because these differences do not serve to distinguish one word from
another. In English the t sounds in the words "hit," "tip," and "little"
are allophones; phonemically they are considered to be the same sound
although they are different phonetically in terms of aspiration,
voicing, and point of articulation. In Japanese and some dialects of
Chinese, the sounds f and h are allophones.

MORPHOLOGY:
in linguistics, study of the internal construction of words. Languages
vary widely in the degree to which words can be analyzed into word
elements, or morphemes (q.v.). In English there are numerous examples,
such as "replacement," which is composed of re-, "place," and -ment, and
"walked," from the elements "walk" and -ed. Many American Indian
languages have a highly complex morphology; other languages, such as
Vietnamese or Chinese, have very little or none. Morphology includes the
grammatical processes of inflection (q.v.) and derivation . Inflection
marks categories such as person, tense, and case; e.g., "sings" contains
a final -s, marker of the 3rd person singular, and the German Mannes
consists of the stem Mann and the genitive singular inflection -es.
Derivation is the formation of new words from existing words; e.g.,
"singer" from "sing" and "acceptable" from "accept." Derived words can
also be inflected: "singers" from "singer."

MORPHEME:
in linguistics, the smallest grammatical unit of speech; it may be a
word, like "place" or "an," or an element of a word, like re- and -ed in
"reappeared." So-called isolating languages, such as Vietnamese, have a
one-to-one correspondence of morphemes to words; i.e., no words contain
more than one morpheme. Variants of a morpheme are called allomorphs;
the ending -s, indicating plural in "cats," "dogs," the -es in "dishes,"
and the -en of "oxen" are all allomorphs of the plural morpheme. The
word "talked" is represented by two morphemes, "talk" and the past-tense
morpheme, here indicated by -ed. The study of words and morphemes is
included in morphology (q.v.).

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 00:47:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:47:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.174754.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 07.JUN.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammatik" 2002.06.06 (07) [E/LS]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]
>
>Ron, Leeg- un Lowlanders,
...
>oder:
>"Hei is tau wegloopen"
>(Dann ist er weg gelaufen)
>(Then he run away; [perhaps: "immediately"))
>
>Ditt "tau" kunn obers ook'n "door, in disse Wies, Tiid" ween, dí±Ží¸´ mi.
>(Das "zu" kí¹ºí¾´e aber auch, ví¹²í¼©g anders als vorher, bedeuten: "Da,
>damals,
>dann")
>("tau" could be very different from "to do": "then, at that time").
>
>'n Oobend
>
>Fiete.

Hello Fiete !
I tend to believe this "tau" isn't the infinitive-mark but corresponds
to
the word "do:" in Eastern Friesland LS meaning "at the time when; in the
past; when.
Some examples:
"dat was do: as 't so: 'n bu:stergh we:er west het" (it happens at the
time
when the weather was so bad)
"do: ji: mi: sachent, le:p' ji: wegh" (when you saw me you ran away)
"Tau" in EFLS normally is the infinitive-mark but we know one different
use:
School-children say about their homework: "dat he' wi: tau möergen up"
(that we have to do for/until tomorrow);
"häi het hum tau möergen nöyeght" (he has invited him for tomorrow).
In our
region this has moved into informal German as "zu" replacing "für":
"Das haben wir zu morgen auf"; "er hat ihn zu morgen eingeladen".
In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "stón" (to stand) or "gón"
(to
go) with an infinitive:
"wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
over I can't find any example.

Regards
Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Holger:

> In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "stón" (to stand) or "gón" > (to
> go) with an infinitive:
> "wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
> theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
> over I can't find any example.

This seems to be the construction in Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German)
I had described earlier.  Do you think so?

> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
> ...
>
> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
> (Wat daaist dôê hier taau zitn?)
> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>
> Wat sall dat Tüüchs noch rümtauliggen daun?
> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>
> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?

Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?

*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten?

*Wat sal däi budel noch rümtauliggen daun?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 19:22:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:22:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.08 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.122241.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 08.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]
>
>Hi, Randy, Ron,
>
>the Low Saxon "leeg" in our dialecct only stands for "bad, naughty",
>near to "evil".
>
>I'm sure, Ron knows and just is making a joke with it.
>
>We always use to say "sied [si:d]" for "low"; and in Upper German there
>is
>the "Sied-lung [si:dlung]" for those locations poor people had to
>emigrate
>to for establishing a farm.
>
>Regards
>
>Fiete.

Hello Fiete !
In Eastern Friesland LS the term "le:gh" denotes "low" but not (or
rarely) "bad". The derived word "lêghd" [l_e+accent-circonflexe_gh_d]
or "le:ghde" denotes an area of land lying "low", "on a lower niveau
than
the surrounding". "Le:ghmóer" [l_e:_gh_m_o+accent-aigu_e_r] is the
German "Niederungsmoor" (sorry, I don't know the English term).
"Le:ghland/er" is understood without any problem as well as
"le:ghdüüts"
(Low German)if you don't say "plat". However for the last most people
today
would use the loan "ne:derdüüts".

Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 19:23:40 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:23:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.122340.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 08.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]
>
>Hi, Randy, Ron,
>
>the Low Saxon "leeg" in our dialecct only stands for "bad, naughty",
>near to "evil".
>
>I'm sure, Ron knows and just is making a joke with it.
>
>We always use to say "sied [si:d]" for "low"; and in Upper German there
>is
>the "Sied-lung [si:dlung]" for those locations poor people had to
>emigrate
>to for establishing a farm.
>
>Regards
>
>Fiete.

Hello Fiete !
In Eastern Friesland LS the term "le:gh" denotes "low" but not (or
rarely) "bad". The derived word "lêghd" [l_e+accent-circonflexe_gh_d]
or "le:ghde" denotes an area of land lying "low", "on a lower niveau
than the surrounding". "Le:ghmóer" [l_e:_gh_m_o+accent-aigu_e_r] is the
German "Niederungsmoor" (sorry, I don't know the English term).
"Le:ghland/er" is understood without any problem as well as
"le:ghdüüts" (Low German)if you don't say "plat". However for the last
most people today would use the loan "ne:derdüüts".

Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 19:27:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:27:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.122714.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dear All

Fiete wrote:

"New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but:
"horse" (and
"hengist") in modern English.

What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most
times!

I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to
convince me! "HORSE"
seems much older.

Bis denne

Fiete."

Is this regarding etymology? I don't have an etymology
dictionary with me at present, but as far as I can
remember 'Pferd' etc. comes from an early Latin loan,
whereas 'horse' is the old Germanic word still found
in German 'Ross' etc. I'm not sure where 'pair' comes
from, but I would think that German 'Paar' is cognate.
Seeing as the German word has a simple 'p' and not a
'pf' I would think that this is a much more recent
loan, and probably from French? (sorry, my French
isn't too hot, so please excuse me if I'm wrong - the
word 'se-par-ate' springs to mind as being connected).
With this reasoning I wouldn't expect the two to be
related.

Hope this helps

Gary

----------

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.07 (03) [E]

> From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but: "horse" (and
> "hengist") in modern English.
>
> What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most times!
>
> I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to convince me! "HORSE"
> seems much older.
>
> Bis denne
>
> Fiete.

It wurd "paard" (yn it Holla^nsk) en de farianten u't it Nederdu'tsk,
Sieuwsk, Limburchsk binne lienwurden u't it Latyn, nl paravere^dus (=
hynder. _horse_) of leavver u't foarmen de^rfan yn Romaanske talen. Ek
besibbe: Fra^nsk palefroi, (--> Ingelsk _palfrey_).
It oarspronklik Germaanske wurd is *khrussa.
Mei metatesis (ferwiskeling fan lu^d en r) waard dit yn it Aldfrysk
_hors_,
dat noch fuortlibbet yn Skylger "hos". It normale wurd foar _horse_ is
no yn it Westerlauwer Frysk _hynder_ < *hingst-diar  (_stallion
-animal.._), en ek it Seelsterk hat no Hoangst.
It Ingels bewarret ek _horse_, wylst it Holla^nsk noch _ros_ hat (mar
net
mear as it meast gebru^kte wurd)

Mei freonlike groetenis!

Henno Brandsma

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 22:06:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 15:06:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (03) [E/F/Z]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.150631.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

Henno Brandsma schreef:

> Mei metatesis (ferwiskeling fan lu^d en r) waard dit yn it Aldfrysk
> _hors_,
> dat noch fuortlibbet yn Skylger "hos". It normale wurd foar _horse_ is
> no yn it Westerlauwer Frysk _hynder_ < *hingst-diar  (_stallion
> -animal.._), en ek it Seelsterk hat no Hoangst.
> It Ingels bewarret ek _horse_, wylst it Holla^nsk noch _ros_ hat (mar
> net
> mear as it meast gebru^kte wurd)

't Zeêuws ei, neffen 't gebrukelijke _paerd_, ok
nog _rosse_ of _'osse_, '_orse_ vo een paerd
dat a moeilijk om 'ouwen is, een druzig paerd
dus.
De vurm _rosse_ 'oor je meer as de vurm
_'orse_ of (mee wiggevaolle r) _'osse_. Dat die
vurm _ 'orse_ bestaet, wil nie zeie a dat den
ouwsten vurm is; in 't Zeêuws wissele mede-
klienkers lap vo keêr van plekke...

Nog een paer paerdetermen (Zeêuws:NL) die
a me te binnen schieete:
_een blauwen_: een schimmel
_een liere_: een grijs gevlekt paard
_een tuug lieren_: een span grijs gevlekte
paarden
_een 'it_: slecht uitziend paard
_een blisse_: bles, grote witte vlek
_een kolle_: kleine witte vlek
_de lienken_: de flanken van een paard
_een kacheltje_: een veulen
_een klop'iengst_: hengst met één teelbal
_liende_: leidsel
_tjottere_: het slaan van de leidsels
_alder_: hoofdstel

Misschiens ok wè interessant bin de
commando's die an paeren ore gegee:
_aor_: linksom
_uuto_: rechtsom
_aorop_: beetje naar links
_uutop_: beetje naar rechts
_duizop_: achteruit

Groetenisse,

Marco

----------

From: erek gass <egass at caribline.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

For those of you who may be curious, here in Pennsylvania, in Deitsch,
our word for "horse" is "gaul" (plural, "geil").  My understanding is
that this is an even older word (but I haven't checked that out, so
correct my presumption if it needs correcting) than "horse".  I believe
in parts of Germany today, it translates as "nag", that is a "broken
down horse".

Erek

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 03:16:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 20:16:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (04) [E/LS/Z]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.201624.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 08.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon 2002.06.08 (03)

Hi, Marco,

>een blauwen_: een schimmel
heit bie uns inn't Hoogdüütsche ook "Blauschimmel", wenn hei recht jung
is;
>een klop'iengst_: hengst met één teelbal
Waard hier ook seggt, man: wat meent dat? "teelball"?

Door gifft' ook noch "Appelschimmel", mit'n poor düsster Steeln op'n
Fell.

Hi, Erek,

>  I believe
>in parts of Germany today, it translates as "nag", that is a "broken
>down horse"
Yes, but it also can mean a horse of just minor quality, far away from
the
demanded "noblesse".

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

This thread seems to cover both "Etymology" and "Lexicon," so I'll just
leave it with "Lexicon" for now.

Marco & Fiete:

> >een klop'iengst_: hengst met één teelbal
> Waard hier ook seggt, man: wat meent dat? "teelball"?

Ik anter al maal för Marco.  Nedderlandsch _teelbal_ (ook _bal_) bedüüdt
"Klööt" (düütsch _Hoden_, ingelsch _testicle_).

Erek Gass wrote:

> For those of you who may be curious, here in Pennsylvania, in Deitsch,
> our word for "horse" is "gaul" (plural, "geil").  My understanding is
> that this is an even older word (but I haven't checked that out, so
> correct my presumption if it needs correcting) than "horse".  I believe
> in parts of Germany today, it translates as "nag", that is a "broken
> down horse".

We don't know that for sure.  German _Gaul_ '(old) nag' (which also
simply means 'horse' in many European German dialects) goes back to
Middle (High) German _gûl_, and that is apparently as far as it can be
traced back.  What is important about this _gûl_ is that it is not
specific to one animal but is sex-specific, denoting a male animal,
oftentimes mentioned in the context of pigs.  According to the
_Herkunftsduden_, it may well be related to the word group to which
German _gießen_ (Low Saxon/Low German _geten_) 'to pour' belongs' (<
Germanic *_g^heu-_, thus assumedly in reference to ejaculation).

Marco Evenhuis was so kind as to share some Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
equestrian terms (with Dutch glosses).  Although I did not exactly grow
up with horses, I will add below as many Northern and Northeastern Low
Saxon ones (of Northern Germany) as come to mind and can be scared up at
a moment's notice.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

/peird/ Peerd [pe.I3t] ~ Pierd [pi:3t] 'horse' (neut., pl. /peird(@)/
   Peer(d') [pe:I3(d)] ~ Pier(d') [pi:.3(d)])

/hiiz/ Hies [hi:s] ~ /hiiz+k@/ Hieske ['hi:sk@] 'horse' (neut.,
   pl. Hies(k)en, specific to Eastern Friesland and Oldenburg)

/tööt/ Tööt [tø:t] ~ [t9:t] (fem., pl. Töten) 'dam', 'broodmare',
   'mother horse', 'mare'

/faal(-n)+peird/ Fahl(en)peerd ~ Fohl(en)peerd ['fQ:l(n)pE.I3t] ~
   ['fo:l(n)pE.I3t] 'mare' (see _Peerd_ above and _Fahlen_ below)

/faal(-n)+meer/ Fahl(en)mähr ~ Fohl(en)mähr ['fQ:l(n)me:3] ~
   ['fQ:l(n)mE:3] ~ ['fo:l(n)me:3] ~  ['fo:l(n)mE:3] (fem.,
   pl. Fahl(en)mähr(e)n ~ Fohl(en)mähr(e)n; see _Fahlen_ below) 'mare'
   'broodmare'

/hiNst/ Hingst [hI.Ns(t)] (masc., pl. Hingsten) 'stallion', 'stud
   (horse)'

/paag(@)/ Paag [pQ:.G] ~ [po:.G] (masc., pl. Pagen ['pQ:gN=] ~ [po:gN=])
   'nag', often specifically 'inferior male horse', also '(inferior)
   gelding'

/valak/ Wallak ['va.lak] (masc., pl. Wallaks) 'gelding'

/ruun/ Ruun [ru:n] (masc., pl. Runen) 'gelding'

/faal/ Fahl ~ Fohl [fQ:l] ~ [fo:l] ~ /faaln/ Fahlen ~ Fohlen [fQ:ln]
   ~ [fo:ln] (neut., pl. Fahlen ~ Fohlen) 'foal'

/hiiz+faaln/ Hiesfahlen ~ Hiesfohlen ['hi:sfQ:ln] (neut., pl.
   Hiesfahlen ~ Hiesfohlen) 'foal' (specific to Eastern Friesland and
   Oldenburg)

/krak/ Krack [krak] ~ /krük/ Krück [krYk] (fem. ~ neut., pl. Kracken ~
   Krücken) 'inferior horse', '(old) nag' (also 'cripple' or 'weakling'
   in derogatory reference to humans)

/krüp-n+biit-r/ Krüppenbieter ['krYpm=bi:t3] ~ /krüf-n+biit-r/
   Krüppenbieter ['krYfm=bi:t3] 'inferior horse', '(old) nag'
   ("crib biter," probably because it is not fed as well as more able
   horses -- sad, but such are country life and the "good" old days)

/Sin-r/ Schinner ['SI.n3] (masc., pl. Schinners) 'inferior horse',
   '(old) nag' (northeastern dialects, probably abbreviated; elsewhere
   'knacker', 'animal torturer'; cf. German _Schinder_ 'id.' >
   _Schindermähre_ 'old, useless horse (ready for slaughter)')

/klepr/ Klepper ['klEp3] (masc., pl. Kleppers) 'inferior horse', 'old
   nag'

/Siml/ Schimmel ['Si.ml=] ~ /Süml/ Schümmel ['SY.ml=] (masc., pl.
   Schimmels ~ Schümmels) 'white/gray horse'

/apl+Siml/ Appelschimmel ['?apl=Si.ml=] ~ /apl+Süml/ Appleschümmel
   ['?aplSY.ml=] 'dappled (gray) horse' (< Appel 'apple')

/fos/ Voss ~ Voß [fOs] (masc., pl. /fös/ Vöss ~ Vöß [f9s]) 'chestnut
   horse' ("fox")

/riid+peird/ Rietpeerd ~ Riedpeerd ['ri:tpE.I3t] (see _Peerd_) 'riding
   horse'

/ren+peird/ Rennpeerd ['rE.npE.I3] ~ Rönnpeerd ['r9.npE.I3t]
  (see _Peerd_) 'racehorse'

/maan/ Mahn ~ Mohn [mQ:n] ~ [mo:n] ~ Mähn [me:n] ~ [mE:n] (fem.,
   pl. Mahnen ~ Mohnen) 'mane'

/bles/ Bless ~ Bleß [blEs] (fem., pl. Blessen) 'blaze (of a horse
   or cow)'

/nüstr/ Nüster ['nYst3] (fem., pl. Nüstern) '(horse's) nostril'

/nüf/ Nüff ['nYf] (fem., pl. Nüffen ~ Nüffs) '(horse's) nostril'

/houf/ Hoof [ho.Uf] ~ Hauf [ha.Uf] (masc., pl. /höüf/ Hööf ~ Heuf ~
   Häuf [h9.If] ~ [hO.If]) 'hoof'

/houf+iizn/ Hoofiesen ['ho.Uf?I:zn=] ~ Haufiesen ['ha.Uf?I:zn=] (neut.,
   pl. Hoofiesen) 'horseshoe' ("hoof iron," often simply _Iesen_ "iron")

/sadl/ Saddel ['zadl=] ~ /saadl/ Sadel ~ Sodel ['zQ:dl=] ~ ['zo:dl=]
   'saddle'

/peird(@)+apl/ Peerappel ~ Pierappel ['pE.I3?apl=] ~ ['pi:3?apl=]
   ("horses' apple") '(piece of) horse dung'

/halt-r/ Halter ['ha.lt3] (masc. ~ neut., pl. Halters) 'halter'

/töögl/ Tögel (masc., pl. Tögel) 'rein'

/laid(e)/ Leit ~ Leid' ~ Lei [la.It] ~ [la:.I(d)] (neut., pl. ?)
   'rein', 'lead'

/toum/ Toom [to.Um] ~ Taum [ta.Um] (masc., pl. /töüm/ Tööm ~ Teum ~
   Täum [t9.Im] ~ [tO.Im]) 'bridle'

/toum+wark/ Toomwark ['to.Umva:k] ~ Taumwark ['ta.Umva:k] (neut.)
   'bridle (with harness)' (< Wark 'work(s)', 'gear')

/toum+tüüg/ Toomtüüg ['to.Umty:C] ~ Taumtüüg ['ta.Umty:C] (neut.)
   'bridle (with harness)' (< Tüüg 'stuff', 'gear')

/g at -SIr/ Geschirr [ge'SI.3] (neut.) 'harness'

/vrinS-/ wrinschen ['vrI.nSn=] ~ /vrünS-/ wrünschen ['vrY.nSn=] ~
   /rünS-/ rünschen ['r9.nSn=] ~ /rönS-/ rönschen ['r9.nSn=] 'to neigh'

/green-/ grenen [gre:n:] ~ [grE:n] ~ /gröön-/ grönen [grø:n:] ~
   [gr9:n:] 'to neigh'

/röünr-/ rönern ~ reunern ~ räunern ['r9.In3n] ~ ['rO.In3n] 'to neigh
   softly', 'to whinny'

/riid-/ rieden ['ri:dn=] (ik ried', du rittst, he ritt, wi riedt ~
rieden;
   ik ree(d'); ik heff reden) 'to ride (an animal)'

/draav-/ draven ~ droven ~ droben ['drQ:vm=] ~ ['dro:vm=] ~ ['dro:bm=]
   'to trot'

/drav(-d)/ Draff [draf] ~ Draft [draft] (masc.) 'trot'

/galop/ Galopp [ga'lOp] (masc.) 'gallop'

/galop-eir-n/ galoppeern [galO'pE.Irn] 'to gallop'

/klebudr-/ klebuddern [kle'bUd3n] 'to gallop' (also 'to run noisily',
   'to stomp speedily')

/rabakr-/ rabackern [ra'bak3n] 'to gallop' (also 'to run noisily',
   'to stomp speedily')

/fel(d)+jaag-/ felljagen ['fE.ljQ:gN=] ~ ['fE.ljo:gN=] 'to bolt'

/hüü/ hü! [hy(:)] (1) 'wo hee!' (leftward command); (2) 'giddy up!',
   'gee up!' (forward command)

/hot/ hott! [hOt] (1) 'giddy', 'gee!' (rightward command); (2)
   'giddy up!', 'gee up!' (forward command)

/hüü+hot/ hü-hott! [hy(:)'hOt] 'giddy up!', 'gee up!' (forward command)*
__________
* Note also idiomatic derivations:
   hü un hott 'both ways', 'undecided', 'indecisive(ly)'
   nich hü un nich hott gahn ("to go neither _hü_ nor _hott_")
      (1) 'to go straight ahead and never stray from one's path'
      (2) 'to act indecisively'
   nich hü un nich hott weten ("to know neither _hü_ nor _hott_")
      'to be at a loss', 'to be indecisive'
   De een geiht hü, de anner hott ("one goes _hü_, the other _hott_")
      'They are each going their own way', 'They are falling out', 'They
      are separating/separated (said especially about couples)
   De een seggt hü, de anner hott ("One says _hü_, the other _hott_")
      'They say/want contradictory things', 'They don't get along',
      'They are incompatible'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 17:24:10 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:24:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.102410.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 09.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: JL <jl at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon

> I'm not sure where 'pair' comes
> from, but I would think that German 'Paar' is cognate.
> Seeing as the German word has a simple 'p' and not a
> 'pf' I would think that this is a much more recent
> loan, and probably from French?

You are right: My "Concise Oxford Dictionary" gives:{ME,f.OF 'paire'
f.L 'paria', neut.pl. of 'par' equal]

Grtz,
Jaap Liek

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 17:25:59 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:25:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.102559.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: "to make" vs. "to do"

Beste lieeglanners,

I have been thinking a lot recently about the usage of the verb "to do"
in English sentences such as for example :
"I do think you'll be surprised"
where "do" expresses a stronger sentiment than merely saying :
"I think you'll be surprised"
Here in Brabant I have never ever come across such a meaning for the
auxiliary verb "doen".
But at the same time I have been wondering why English people say :
"He makes me laugh"
where we would say
"A du ma lachen"
("to make" versus "to do")
Maybe the difference is even sharper when an order is given like :
"Make them dance"
where we would say
"Du ze dansn"
Which position does Northern Germany choose in this respect ?
Or is it rather the verb "to let" or "to bring" that is used in this
context ?

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 17:48:28 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:48:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.09 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.104828.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

I am pleased to send a special welcome to those of you who joined us
since Friday, June 7.  They are in Belgium (Antwerp), Iran (Tehran),
Scotland (Ayr), South Africa (Barberton, Mpumalanga; Wynberg, Cape
Town), Turkey (Fethiye) and the United States of America (Waverly,
Iowa).

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that they are
expected to be familiar with the rules and guidelines posted here:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html

Because of recent signs of apparent misunderstanding, I must stress that
following the proceedings on Lowlands-L is bound to increase knowledge
of and about the various languages but is not intended to serve as
language teaching per se.  If you wish to learn one of these languages,
you ought to enroll in courses or follow a self-taught course and use
Lowlands-L to deepen your understanding by reading what people write or
by asking specific questions.  I am happy to have private contacts with
you.  However, if you have language questions, please direct them at the
List, not at me personally and privately.  I certainly would like to
help you individually, but you must understand that I do not have the
time and energy, or in many cases the knowledge, to do so.  If you have
relevant questions, please direct them at the List by sending them to
the following address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org

To search for suitable sources, please check here:
Online: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/lowlands-links.htm
Offline: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/lowlands-links.htm

Before you ask any question you ought to check the Lowlands-L archive
(http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html) to see if
the same question has been asked and answered earlier.  To search by
keywords in the texts you need to check the box "Substring".

Thank you all!
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:30:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:30:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.09 (04) [D/E/F]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.183024.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: RBlaustein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

From: Richard Blaustein
Subject: Etymology of "Pferd," "Paard"

Just a thought from an erstwhile lurker who isn't a professional
linguist and
never studied Latin: could <<pferd>> and <<paard>> possibly be related
to
"-pard" -- as in the Latin-derived "leopard"? Leo is Latin for lion, but
what
is the root meaning of <<pard>>? (An old word for giraffe was
"cameleopard.")

----------

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (04) [E/LS/Z]

> We don't know that for sure.  German _Gaul_ '(old) nag' (which also
> simply means 'horse' in many European German dialects) goes back to
> Middle (High) German _gûl_, and that is apparently as far as it can be
> traced back.  What is important about this _gûl_ is that it is not
> specific to one animal but is sex-specific, denoting a male animal,
> oftentimes mentioned in the context of pigs.  According to the
> _Herkunftsduden_, it may well be related to the word group to which
> German _gießen_ (Low Saxon/Low German _geten_) 'to pour' belongs' (<
> Germanic *_g^heu-_, thus assumedly in reference to ejaculation).

As oanfolling hjirop: ek it Westerlauwer Frysk hat _gu^l_ = a^ld en net
sa
be^st hynder.
It wurdt benammen noch bru^kt yn 'e u'tdrukking _it is gu^l om goarre_
(goarre is ek
sa'n leechlizzend (pejoratyf) wurd foar u.o in hynder. (Holla^nsk: het
is
lood om oud ijzer..)
It Holla^nsk hat _guil_, en de etymologyske wurdboeken binne der net
u't.
Der wurdt noch in moolke gearhing mei Aldiersk _ghota_ (hynder) neamd,
mar
neat is wis. Ek boppeneamde stam *gheu wurdt neamd..
Ik haw it wurd yn it Seeltersk en Frasch/Freesk net fine kind.

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Vermeulen <vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]


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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:34:26 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:34:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.09 (04) [D/E/F/LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.183426.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

Please ignore the previous issue under the same title. It went out
Prematurely.  Sorry.  RFH
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=======================================================================

From: RBlaustein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

From: Richard Blaustein
Subject: Etymology of "Pferd," "Paard"

Just a thought from an erstwhile lurker who isn't a professional
linguist and
never studied Latin: could <<pferd>> and <<paard>> possibly be related
to
"-pard" -- as in the Latin-derived "leopard"? Leo is Latin for lion, but
what
is the root meaning of <<pard>>? (An old word for giraffe was
"cameleopard.")

----------

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (04) [E/LS/Z]

> We don't know that for sure.  German _Gaul_ '(old) nag' (which also
> simply means 'horse' in many European German dialects) goes back to
> Middle (High) German _gûl_, and that is apparently as far as it can be
> traced back.  What is important about this _gûl_ is that it is not
> specific to one animal but is sex-specific, denoting a male animal,
> oftentimes mentioned in the context of pigs.  According to the
> _Herkunftsduden_, it may well be related to the word group to which
> German _gießen_ (Low Saxon/Low German _geten_) 'to pour' belongs' (<
> Germanic *_g^heu-_, thus assumedly in reference to ejaculation).

As oanfolling hjirop: ek it Westerlauwer Frysk hat _gu^l_ = a^ld en net
sa
be^st hynder.
It wurdt benammen noch bru^kt yn 'e u'tdrukking _it is gu^l om goarre_
(goarre is ek
sa'n leechlizzend (pejoratyf) wurd foar u.o in hynder. (Holla^nsk: het
is
lood om oud ijzer..)
It Holla^nsk hat _guil_, en de etymologyske wurdboeken binne der net
u't.
Der wurdt noch in moolke gearhing mei Aldiersk _ghota_ (hynder) neamd,
mar
neat is wis. Ek boppeneamde stam *gheu wurdt neamd..
Ik haw it wurd yn it Seeltersk en Frasch/Freesk net fine kind.

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Vermeulen <vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Dear All
>
> Fiete wrote:
>
> "New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but:
> "horse" (and
> "hengist") in modern English.
>
> What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most
> times!
>
> I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to
> convince me! "HORSE"
> seems much older.
>
> Bis denne
>
> Fiete."
>
> Is this regarding etymology? I don't have an etymology
> dictionary with me at present, but as far as I can
> remember 'Pferd' etc. comes from an early Latin loan,
> whereas 'horse' is the old Germanic word still found
> in German 'Ross' etc. I'm not sure where 'pair' comes
> from, but I would think that German 'Paar' is cognate.
> Seeing as the German word has a simple 'p' and not a
> 'pf' I would think that this is a much more recent
> loan, and probably from French? (sorry, my French
> isn't too hot, so please excuse me if I'm wrong - the
> word 'se-par-ate' springs to mind as being connected).
> With this reasoning I wouldn't expect the two to be
> related.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Gary
>
Beste Gary,

Wellicht kan een greep uit ons Vlaams Nederlands helpen:

1) peerd, peerdig, hengst, beangstigend, merrie, kachtel, kachtelmerrie,
kachtelen, paarden, "pardon", parten, parade,

2) paar, paardans, paren, paarsgewijze, een paar peerden (>(?) paarden),
paar- en onpaar, gepaard gaan met,

3) horsen (G.Gezelle), orsen, rossen, roskam, Rosbeiaard, Horsendonk,
afrossen, horten, horde, hotsen, peerdehorzel,

De woorden binnen de groep zijn min of meer verwant met mekaar; wellicht
bestaat er ook verwantschap tussen woorden uit verschillende groepen.

m vr gr

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06. 08 (04)

Moin, Leeglanners,

"Peer" schiint'n Themen tou ween föör "all of us"- is' jo ook 'n hillig
un'
wichtig Deeir ween, fröher.

Van Doog heff'ck 'n poor aule Peertüchters in mien  Nooborschapp von uns
'Peersnackerei" vertellt, un heff'n heel neuet Woort höört:

"Hucken".

Schall hier leuöpig ween hebben, bit  van Doog, un' heit ook anners nix
as
"Peer"- 'wiss inne Hauptsook door, wo't nich meihr op'n enkeld Deeir
ankoomen dei, opp de Peerhööf för de Remontentucht.

Hi, Lowlanders,

a "horse" seems to be an important thing for many of us- perhaps because
of
it's high social rank and importance in the early times of our common
history.

Today I told some elder people in my neighbourhood about our
"horse-talk",
and it didn't last for long to hear a new expression:

"Hucken" = "Peird" = "horse".

This word is still used in presence and doesn't mean anything else than
just "horse(s)". I guess, normally in connection with breeding them on
greater farms (what had been done in our region for the military
"remontes").

----------

From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.07 (03) [E]

paard comes from " para ferid " latin for "side horse", or pack horse
i'm
told

wim verdoold wkv at home.nl

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:37:00 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:37:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.09 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.183700.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 09.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Grammar
>
>Holger:
>
>> In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "stón" (to stand) or "gón" >
(to
>> go) with an infinitive:
>> "wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
>> theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
>> over I can't find any example.
>
>This seems to be the construction in Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German)
>I had described earlier.  Do you think so?
>
>> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
>> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
>> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
>> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
>> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
>> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
>> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
>> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
>> ...
>>
>> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
>> (Wat daaist dí±ªí°¨ier taau zitn?)
>> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
>> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>>
>> Wat sall dat Tí²²í³¨s noch rí±·í´¡uliggen daun?
>> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
>> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
>> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>>
>> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>
>Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?

Hello Ron !

>*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten? = Is possible but sounds strange. Would
be used joking or in ironical speech.

Let me quote from my own posting:
>In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "stón" (to stand) or "gón"
>(to go) with an infinitive:
>"wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
(!)>theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do),too but thinking
it
>over I can't find any example.(!)

>*Wat sal dä© budel noch rí±·í´¡uliggen daun? = impossible !

However I'll think more about this because there is an idea coming up
that
long time ago I have heard a somewhat similar use of "daun" (or "we:sen"
=
to be) in context with a continued situation (like in the above
sentence).
If I can remember and reconstruct what it was I'll send a further
message.
An other way to mark a continued situation or action in EFLS is "we:sen"
(to be) or else + an 't (at).
"Wat büst du: dor an 't luren ?" (what do you expect to be happening ?;
what are you waiting for ?; what do you spy for ?).
"Säi bünt an 't e:ten" (They are eating).

Regards,
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:48:06 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:48:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.09 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.184806.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 09.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "Neal W. Welsh" <zooman at inreach.com>
Subject: Origin and Center of Appalachian

Actually, I posted this querymore than a week ago, your moderator (?)
replied that the question had been referred to someone else for an
answer.  In that time none has been
forthcoming.  Has this old neophyte missed something?  I really would
like to know as much as I can about the origin and center of the
language.  Thank you.

    THE ORIGINAL E-POSTING:

Howdy Y'all!
    Not to appear pretentious but I hail from the Shenandoah Valley of
Virginia in the Front Royal (birthplace, 1938) and Strasburg (through
7th grade) regions and would like to
know why the dying dialect (language?) of the oldsters there is known as
a distinct language, Appalachian.  I always thought it to be an American
english dialect somewhat
corrupted by Elizabethan expressions.  What is considered the origin and
regional center of this language?  Where would one find a comprehensive
glossary and rules of grammar?
Your reply and suggested web sites would be appreciated.
    Sincerely,
    Neal W. Welsh

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Neal,

I am not quite sure what posting submission you referred to above.  I am
not sure either whom I referred it to.  All I know is that you applied
for subscription today and I subscribed you this evening.
Non-subscribers do not get to post to the List.

So, welcome!  And I hope your question will be answered satisfactorily.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 15:29:02 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:29:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.082902.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: etymnology

Dear Ron, Lowlanders

I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
tragen
which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen, and also the
past
participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.

The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs and I observed
that
the equivalent Dutch verbs vragen, slaan and dragen displayed similar
trends
albeit with certain differences. I have illustrated each verb with its
past
forms as shown below:

VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen
SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen
DRAGEN   droegen   gedragen

As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
all
exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
the
equivalent german verbs. However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen
are
strong irregular verbs, fragen is in fact a weak verb, which is somewhat
quite puzzling.

Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive seems
to
be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was written
as
slagen?

I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs
for
ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages. As far as I can
gather,
past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
participle.

Regards
David Elsworth.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Dear David,

> I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs > for
> ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages.

You got some English interference there from the meaning of the cognate
'to drag'.  That would be 'ask', 'hit' and *'carry'.  (_tragen_/_dragen_
'carry')

> As far as I can gather,
> past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
> participle.

That depends on the dialect.  Some dialects have retained the _ge-_.

Anyway, here are the equivalents in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):

FRAGEN          fraag' ~ fröög'*        (ge)fraagt
SLAGEN ~ SLAAN  sloog' ~ slöög'*        (ge)slagen ~ (ge)slaan
DRAGEN          droog' ~ dröög'*        (ge)dragen

* ~ = occurs in variation with
  oo and öö here are diphthongs: [o.U] ~ [9.Y]/[9.I], ought to be
  written <ou> and <öü>/<öi> respectively.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 15:42:44 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:42:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.084244.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: Sachsen780 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.09 (05) [E]

Hallo jedermann,

while in Emsland in western Niedersachsen, Deutschland last month for
family research, I came to realize that my 1850s
ancestors spoke Plattdeutsch (Old Saxon) when they emigrated to St.
Louis, Missouri and Quincy, Illinois.  My Dad and I learned
a great deal about our family history while there, and even possible
solved the mystery of the orgin of:

Ollie, Ollie oxen free!!

German speakers had never heard this childhood "Hide 'n Seek" expression
which convinced me that if it was of German
(Plattdeutsch) origin, it was an emigrants' game call from long ago.  We
just said it for what it meant, without a thought of
the exact words.

Perhaps the exact wording was:

Alles, alles auch sind frei!!

Any thoughts?

S  T  E  V  E     F  E  L  D

Feld family of 1785-1858 from Herzlake
and Langen--now in Emsland, Niedersachsen,
Deutschland

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Sayings

Hi, Steve!

> ancestors spoke Plattdeutsch (Old Saxon) when they emigrated to St.
> Louis,

Old Saxon ceased to be spoken in the Middle Ages.  It developed into
Middle Low Saxon ("Middle Low German") which lasted until the late 17th
century.  The descendant language varieties used nowadays are called
"Low Saxon" or "Low German" in English.

The English name for what is called _Niedersachsen_ in German and
_Neddersassen_ in Low Saxon is "Lower Saxony."  _Deutschland_ (Low Saxon
_Düütschland_) is "Germany" in English.

(By the way, some of us do not like it when people refer to our language
as _Plattdeutsch_ when speaking or writing in English.  Why use the
*("High") German* name (the name in the overshadowing/suppressing
language) when there is an English name?  The equivalent names in the
language itself are _Neddersassisch_, _Nedderdüütsch_ or
_Plattdüütsch_.)

Friendly regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 20:48:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:48:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.10 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.134823.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: Re: "Sayings" 2002. 06. 10 (02)

Hi, Ron, Lowlanders,


S  T  E  V  E     F  E  L  D >Sachsen780 at aol.com< wrote:

>...Hallo jedermann,

>while in Emsland in western Niedersachsen, Deutschland last month ...

Ron wrote:

>...The English name for what is called _Niedersachsen_ in German and
>_Neddersassen_ in Low Saxon is "Lower Saxony."  ...

I'm not sure, Ron, that You do rigtht to use "Neddersassen" as an origin
Low Saxon word.
Because: "Niedersachsen" was established and named like this not before
1949; it's an artificial product, mainly made for  federative reasons
after
World War 2.

So- it's obviously a translation (of course: a correct one!) from modern
Upper German, and I don't feel well when reading it. I never would use
it
myself.

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Fiete,

> So- it's obviously a translation (of course: a correct one!) from modern
> Upper German, and I don't feel well when reading it. I never would use it
> myself.

That may be so, but everyone else that I know uses _Neddersassen_,
_Nedersaksen_, _Neersassen_. etc. (dependent on their dialects) when
speaking or writing Low Saxon (Low German), and I would be rather
startled to hear someone say _Niedersachsen_ when speaking Low Saxon.  I
gave that form in parentheses, which does not necessarily imply that it
is the *origin*, simply means that it is the equivalent.

Actually, if you read some older texts (e.g., 18th and 17th century
ones), you will come across versions such as _Nedern sassen lant_ or
_Nedersaksisch land_.  So the name existed, even though the land it
referred to may not exactly coincide with the modern state
boundary-wise.  I do not really believe that the (High) German name for
the modern German state was plucked out of thin air.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 20:52:35 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:52:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.135235.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

David Elsworth wrote:

> I have illustrated each verb with its
> past
> forms as shown below:
>
> VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen
> SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen
> DRAGEN   droegen   gedragen

The correct past participle of _vragen_ in
Dutch is actually _gevraagd_ The rest of
the information above is correct.

> Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive seems
> to
> be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was written
> as
> slagen?

There is a Dutch verb _slagen_ and
that can be used with the same meaning
as _slaan_, but usually isn't. It is mostly
used in the meaning of 'having success'.

My 'Etymologisch Woordenboek' (by
dr. J. de Vries, Antwerp 1964) actually
mentions _slagen_ as a younger form
of _slaan_. It probably derived from
the past participle of _slaan_.
I believe that in Flanders _slagen_ is in
fact used in the same way as _slaan_,
allthough there also _slaan_ is the normal
form.

Then the equivalents in Zeeuws:

vraege(n) - vroog - evroge(n)
slaee(n) - sloog - esloge(n)
draege(n) - droog - edroge(n)

Some remarks:
* in most dialects the past participles
have the prefix _e-_, but some dialects
have _ge-_.
* older forms for the past tense of
_slaee(n)_ are _sleeg_ and _slieg_ and
an older form for the past tense of
_draege(n)_ is _dreeg_.
* older forms for the past participles
are _edrege(n)_ and _eslege(n)_.
* two of these verbs also have weak
equivalents, but these are not used
as much as the strong ones. They are:

vraege(n) - vraeg(en)de - evroge(n)
draege(n) - draeg(en)de - edroge(n)

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: JL <jl at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: etymnology
>
>Dear Ron, Lowlanders
>
>I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
>tragen
>which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen, and also the
>past
>participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
>The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs and I observed
>that
>the equivalent Dutch verbs vragen, slaan and dragen displayed similar
>trends
>albeit with certain differences. I have illustrated each verb with its
>past
>forms as shown below:
>
>VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen
>SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen
>DRAGEN   droegen   gedragen

''gevragen"  is wrong, it  is "gevraagd"

Best Regards,
Jaap Liek

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

> From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
> Subject: etymnology
>
> Dear Ron, Lowlanders
>
> I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
> tragen
> which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen, and also the
> past
> participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
> The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs and I observed
> that
> the equivalent Dutch verbs vragen, slaan and dragen displayed similar
> trends
> albeit with certain differences. I have illustrated each verb with its
> past
> forms as shown below:
>
> VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen
                     gevraagd!(dutch)
> SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen
> DRAGEN   droegen   gedragen

Dear David,
In Flanders it is:
VRAGEN      vroegen          gevraagd
SLAAN       sloegen          geslegen
DRAGEN      droegen          gedregen
> As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
> all
> exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
> the
> equivalent german verbs. However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen
> are
> strong irregular verbs, fragen is in fact a weak verb, which is somewhat
> quite puzzling.
>
> Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive seems
> to
> be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was written
> as
> slagen?
>
> I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs
> for
> ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages. As far as I can
> gather,
> past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
> participle.
>
> Regards
> David Elsworth.
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dear David,
>
>> I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs > for
>> ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages.
>
> You got some English interference there from the meaning of the cognate
> 'to drag'.  That would be 'ask', 'hit' and *'carry'.  (_tragen_/_dragen_
> 'carry')
>
>> As far as I can gather,
>> past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
>> participle.
>
> That depends on the dialect.  Some dialects have retained the _ge-_.
>
> Anyway, here are the equivalents in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):
>
> FRAGEN          fraag' ~ fröög'*        (ge)fraagt
> SLAGEN ~ SLAAN  sloog' ~ slöög'*        (ge)slagen ~ (ge)slaan
> DRAGEN          droog' ~ dröög'*        (ge)dragen
Flemish:
VRAGEN         vroeg         gevraagd
SLAGEN         slagen        gelaagd (succeeded)
SLAAN          sloeg         geslagen (hit)
DRAGEN         droeg         gedregen
> * ~ = occurs in variation with
> oo and öö here are diphthongs: [o.U] ~ [9.Y]/[9.I], ought to be
> written <ou> and <öü>/<öi> respectively.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:04:33 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:04:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.140433.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.07 (03) [E]

> From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Sorry, all of You,
>
> I've tried the "eight" , "ought" , "acht", "eigen", "echt", "ächten".- -
> -
> No one interested at all.
>
> New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but: "horse" (and
> "hengist") in modern English.
Dear Fiete,
In Flemish we have
peird, hors, ors, and ros.
'Hengst' is the male horse and 'merrie' the female.
A 'kacheltje' is a just born horse and a 'veulen - veul'n' is a young
horse.
>
> What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most times!
We use the word 'paor' for the number two.
Paorsgewijze= per two.
>
> I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to convince me! "HORSE"
> seems much older.
>
> Bis denne
>
> Fiete.
Totton,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen <baxichedda at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (04) [E/LS/Z]

Hello all,

As a long time horse affectionado, I was once told
that most "Danish" words to do with horses are
supposed to be loan words from German, but it seems we
got some from Low Saxon... I made up a little list of
the words that seems similar to the other list,
unfortunately I am not good enough at phonetic writing
to add that information.

I also want to ask if anybody has ever heard the
expression "Mohrenkopf" or similar, about a dark grey
horse who still has a black head? It was used in older
Danish imported as "morenkop", but was later
abandoned.

Greetings, Lone Olesen

The first list are the Low Saxon words quoted from
Ron's list, the second is the apparently similar
"Danish" words:

----begin quote----
/hiiz/ Hies [hi:s] ~ /hiiz+k@/ Hieske ['hi:sk@]
'horse' (neut.,
   pl. Hies(k)en, specific to Eastern Friesland and
Oldenburg)

/faal/ Fahl ~ Fohl [fQ:l] ~ [fo:l] ~ /faaln/ Fahlen ~
Fohlen [fQ:ln]
   ~ [fo:ln] (neut., pl. Fahlen ~ Fohlen) 'foal'

/hiNst/ Hingst [hI.Ns(t)] (masc., pl. Hingsten)
'stallion', 'stud
   (horse)'

/valak/ Wallak ['va.lak] (masc., pl. Wallaks)
'gelding'

/krak/ Krack [krak] ~ /krük/ Krück [krYk] (fem. ~
neut., pl. Kracken ~
   Krücken) 'inferior horse', '(old) nag' (also
'cripple' or 'weakling'
   in derogatory reference to humans)

/krüp-n+biit-r/ Krüppenbieter ['krYpm=bi:t3] ~
/krüf-n+biit-r/
   Krüppenbieter ['krYfm=bi:t3] 'inferior horse',
'(old) nag'
   ("crib biter," probably because it is not fed as
well as more able
   horses -- sad, but such are country life and the
"good" old days)

/Siml/ Schimmel ['Si.ml=] ~ /Süml/ Schümmel ['SY.ml=]
(masc., pl.
   Schimmels ~ Schümmels) 'white/gray horse'
/apl+Siml/ Appelschimmel ['?apl=Si.ml=] ~ /apl+Süml/
Appleschümmel
   ['?aplSY.ml=] 'dappled (gray) horse' (< Appel
'apple')

/fos/ Voss ~ Voß [fOs] (masc., pl. /fös/ Vöss ~ Vöß
[f9s]) 'chestnut
   horse' ("fox")

/maan/ Mahn ~ Mohn [mQ:n] ~ [mo:n] ~ Mähn [me:n] ~
[mE:n] (fem.,
   pl. Mahnen ~ Mohnen) 'mane'

/bles/ Bless ~ Bleß [blEs] (fem., pl. Blessen) 'blaze
(of a horse
   or cow)'

/houf/ Hoof [ho.Uf] ~ Hauf [ha.Uf] (masc., pl. /höüf/
Hööf ~ Heuf ~
   Häuf [h9.If] ~ [hO.If]) 'hoof'

/sadl/ Saddel ['zadl=] ~ /saadl/ Sadel ~ Sodel
['zQ:dl=] ~ ['zo:dl=]
   'saddle'

/peird(@)+apl/ Peerappel ~ Pierappel ['pE.I3?apl=] ~
['pi:3?apl=]
   ("horses' apple") '(piece of) horse dung'

/töögl/ Tögel (masc., pl. Tögel) 'rein'

/toum/ Toom [to.Um] ~ Taum [ta.Um] (masc., pl. /töüm/
Tööm ~ Teum ~
   Täum [t9.Im] ~ [tO.Im]) 'bridle'

/toum+wark/ Toomwark ['to.Umva:k] ~ Taumwark
['ta.Umva:k] (neut.)
   'bridle (with harness)' (< Wark 'work(s)', 'gear')

/vrinS-/ wrinschen ['vrI.nSn=] ~ /vrünS-/ wrünschen
['vrY.nSn=] ~
   /rünS-/ rünschen ['r9.nSn=] ~ /rönS-/ rönschen
['r9.nSn=] 'to neigh'

/riid-/ rieden ['ri:dn=] (ik ried', du rittst, he
ritt, wi riedt ~
rieden;
   ik ree(d'); ik heff reden) 'to ride (an animal)'

/draav-/ draven ~ droven ~ droben ['drQ:vm=] ~
['dro:vm=] ~ ['dro:bm=]
 'to trot'

/drav(-d)/ Draff [draf] ~ Draft [draft] (masc.) 'trot'

/galop/ Galopp [ga'lOp] (masc.) 'gallop'

/galop-eir-n/ galoppeern [galO'pE.Irn] 'to gallop'

/hüü/ hü! [hy(:)] (1) 'wo hee!' (leftward command);
(2) 'giddy up!',
   'gee up!' (forward command)
----end quote----

Horse related words in Danish:

hest (horse)

føl (foal)
fole (young horse, now only literary in use)
fole (to give birth to a foal)

hingst (stallion)
klaphingst (stallion with one testicle)

vallak (gelding)

krikke (old or broken inferior horse)

krybbebider (crib biter - a horse with the habit of
swallowing air, it rests its teeth on the crib to get
the right angle on the throat for doing it. The air
can take up space inside the stomach and the horse
will then eat less and become skinny).

skimmel (blå-, rød-, grå-, brun-, æble-) (greyish
horse, you can add blue-, red-, grey-, brown-, apple-,
to specify which colour of the coat is dominating, a
greyish horse is born red, black or brown and only
later in life it changes colour).

fuks (red horse)

man (mane)

blis (blaze, white line down the head)

hov (hoof)

sadel (saddle)

hestepære (heste-pære= horse-pear= dung)

tøjle (rein for riding horses)

tømme (rein for cart horses)

tømmeværk (harness gear), sounds familiar but I am not
completely sure if that word is used.

vrinske (to neigh)

ride (to ride an animal)

trave (to trot)

trav (trot)

galop (a gallop)

galoppere (to gallop)

hyp / hyphyp (giddy up!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Lone,

Thanks a lot for the terrific list (above)!  Much appreciated.

> As a long time horse affectionado, I was once told
> that most "Danish" words to do with horses are
> supposed to be loan words from German, but it seems we
> got some from Low Saxon...

Isn't this true of most cases of Low Saxon (Low German) loans in
Scandinavian, Baltic, Finnic and Kashubian?  They tended to be referred
to as "German" because it used to be the political line to include them
under the label "German."  Unless "German" loans are of fairly recent
dates and/or show clear (High) German phonological patterns, I would
always assume that these supposedly "German" loans are in fact Low Saxon
ones, certainly in Scandinavian (somewhat less assuredly so in
Kashubian, Baltic and Estonian, because the Germanic colonizers of those
areas were a mix of German and Low Saxon speakers, and there were some
Dutch and Flemish speakers also.

Thanks again for the list!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:06:49 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:06:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.140649.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (02) [E]

At 08:42 AM 06/10/02 -0700, Steve Feld wrote:
>My Dad and I learned a great deal about our family history while there,
>and even possible
>solved the mystery of the orgin of:
>
>Ollie, Ollie oxen free!!

Well, where I grew up, just north of Chicago, we would say, "Ollie,
ollie,
in come freedom".  I had always theorized that it was derived from Old
or
Middle English, "All ye, all ye, in-come freedom."

Ed Alexander
  Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:34:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:34:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.10 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.143416.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Semantics
So we get:
>
> English:                Lowlands
> Mainland Scots:         Lawlands
> Ulster Scots:           Lallans
> Shetlandic:             Laich Laands
> W. Frisian:             Lege Lannen
> Saterland E. Frisian:   Lijge Lounde
> Mooring N. Frisian:     Läige Lönje
> Amrum N. Frisian:       Liach Lunen
> Dutch:                  Laagland
> Zeelandic:              Laege Landen
  Flemish:                Liige Lan' ('t platte land - 't vlakke land))
Don't forget the Flemish regions (Flemish is not a part of Zeelandic,
they
together are just quiet similar regardig that  Zeeland is a very tiny
region
compared with Flanders. Scientifically speaking I would  appoint
Zeelandic
as the most nordic form of Flemish.One (old) example: Around 1470 the
number
of inhabitants  are as following: Brabant 413 000 , Holland 268 000 ,
Gelre
140 000 , Limburg 16 000
Zeeland 11 000  and Flanders 750 000 !
In the search of looking for the multiple overlaps in the lowlandic
languages it would be very interesting to regard Flemish as a kind of
key to
various items, whish i think has not very much been discouvered.I can
give
you various reasons to make a profound discussion around that item.
> Afrikaans:              Lae Lande
> Stellingwarf Low Saxon: Lege Lanen
> Twente Low Saxon:       Leeglanden
> Mennonite Low Saxon:    Läaglaund
> Northern Low Saxon:     Leegland (Siedland?)
> Limburgish:             Liege Lenj ~ Leig Laan
>
> So, for the sake of consistency and mutual comprehension I just choose
> to use _Leegland_, _Leeglannen_ and _Leeglanner_, certainly don't
> *dictate* it (wouldn't give you bad marks or a slap with my ruler on
> your fingers if you chose to say _Siedland_).  And, yes, admittedly,
> _Leegland_ is vaguely reminiscent of English "badlands" (an arid, rugged
> region), and I kind of enjoy the "naughty" connotation too (Reinhard
> being related to Reynard [de Voss]).  :)
>
> Kumpelmenten,
> Reinhard/Ron

[Luc Vanbrabant]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Luc,

I would be all too happy to include Flemish everywhere and everytime.
The problem is that I cannot do so alone.  I must rely on the good
services of others, as I did when other lists were compiled and when our
webpages were created.  Marco Evenhuis was so kind as to volunteer
Zeelandic translations, and I was eager to snap it up.  What I am
driving at here is that I would gladly add a Flemish version of our
homepage (and one of the Rules and Guidelines page) if you and/or other
Flemings on the list would do the translating bit.  All you need to do
is send me the translated text, and I will post it.  Yes, folks, it
would be fine to have it in more than one Flemish (and/or Brabantish)
variety (as we do in the cases of Limburgish, Low Saxon, Frisian and
Scots).

By the way, a few people (both subscribers and non-subscribers) have
suggested that we post a "blurb" about each of our languages (including
Appalachian, about which quite a few people have asked), at least in
English.  By "blurb" I mean a very short introductory text, followed by
a link to the respective link list.  I responded by pointing out that we
do have those lists of links for the various languages, and many of the
links lead to such introductory texts.  But one of these good folks said
something like, "But you must also consider the type of web surfer that
is interested but is too lazy to search through lists of links or is not
web-savvy or -resourceful enough to do so."

I do like the idea, and I hope that enough among you like it enough to
help me put this together.  I would need volunteers who would write a
blurb for the language varieties of their expertise and send it to me
for posting.  These blurbs would have to be brief and in simple
language, with short sentences.  Of course it would be great to have
translations in the various Lowlands languages, but, if we went beyond
just English, for the moment higher on my wish list are translations
into "major" languages: French, German, Spanish, Portuguese and
Russian.  (Arabic, Chinese and Japanese would be great!)  But any other
language wound be appreciated, such as Danish, Italian, Polish, Turkish,
...  I wouldn't be choosy.  Actually, Scandinavian versions would be
great because of the strong links between the Lowlands and Scandinavia
and because many Scandinavians are still ill-informed about the "German"
(= Low Saxon) loans in their languages.

Please think about it, and share your reactions and ideas, either on the
List or privately with me (sassisch at yahoo.com)!  As always, team work
brings out the best and is good for bonding.  :)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 04:36:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:36:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.10 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.213629.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Names"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> That may be so, but everyone else that I know uses _Neddersassen_,
> _Nedersaksen_, _Neersassen_. etc. (dependent on their dialects) when
> speaking or writing Low Saxon (Low German), and I would be rather
> startled to hear someone say _Niedersachsen_ when speaking Low Saxon.  I
> gave that form in parentheses, which does not necessarily imply that it
> is the *origin*, simply means that it is the equivalent.

Moving over to the question of how to best to refer
to the language in English, something I've been
wondering about for a while is, wouldn't it be better
to say "Lowland Saxon" rather than "Low Saxon"? At
least it would send a clear message that the qualifier
is intended as a geographical distinction (say, from
Upper Saxony or even Highland Germany) rather than a
derogatory term.

Alternatively, adopting "Nethersaxon" or "Nether Saxon"
in English would do roughly the same job - but "Lowland
Saxon" seems clearer and therefore less prone to
misinterpretation.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Sandy,

Thanks for the input (above).

I tend to agree with you.  This "Low Saxon" had already been something
like a tradition in the Netherlands (Nedersaksisch) when I jumped on the
bandwagon.  I did try "Lowlands Saxon" for a while, but some people said
that "Low German" was already established and it therefore ought to be
"Low Saxon."  Besides, some pointed out that "Low" here (derived from
_Ned(d)er_ and _Plat(t)_) does *not* refer to the Lowlands but to the
traditionally low status, or "plain" vs "elevated." Well, I still take
that with a grain of salt.

Perhaps we should start with "Lowlands Saxon" in parentheses to ease
people into it?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 04:39:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:39:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (09) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.213919.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

08:29 10-6-2002 -0700, "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: etymnology

>I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
>tragen which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen,
>and also the past participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
>The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs
> [...]
>each verb with its past forms as shown below:
>
>VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen

Not quite. It's vragen, vroegen, gevraagd.

>SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen

Correct. Interestingly, we also have the verb "slagen" (= pass an
exam; succeed; manage to buy needed clothes that fit etc.), which goes:

SLAGEN, slaagde, geslaagd.

"Slaan" and "slagen" are sometimes confused in some of the language
areas, I think they are Groningen in the north, and Belgium in the
south.

>Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive
seems
>to be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was
>written as slagen?

See above. The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal) says:
===
SLAGEN, bedr., en onz. zw. ww. Hd. schlagen. Gevormd van geslagen,
verl. deelw. van Slaan.
I) Als gewestelijke vorm naast slaan in de of althans in vele
toepassingen van dit woord. In zuidelijke dialecten en in Groningen
en Drenthe. Zie enkele voorbeelden bij SLAAN.
===
--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 21 May 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Grammar
>
>Holger:
>
>> In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "stón" (to stand) or "gón" >
(to
>> go) with an infinitive:
>> "wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
>> theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
>> over I can't find any example.
>
>This seems to be the construction in Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German)
>I had described earlier.  Do you think so?
>
>> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
>> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
>> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
>> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
>> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
>> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
>> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
>> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
>> ...
>>
>> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
>> (Wat daaist dí±ªí°¨ier taau zitn?)
>> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
>> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>>
>> Wat sall dat Tí²²í³¨s noch rí±·í´¡uliggen daun?
>> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
>> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
>> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>>
>> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>
>Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?
>
>*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten?
>
>*Wat sal dä© budel noch rí±·í´¡uliggen daun?
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Hello Ron !

Here I am again a second time on the same feature. As I wrote last time
I
had a notion of having heard something similar to "wat s(gh)al dat dor
liegen daun ?" (why shall that continue to lie there ?) in Eastern
Friesland LS long time ago but considering the fact I cannot decide on
whether it is a real but forgotten experience or just a feeling based on
a
sub-conscious knowledge of general LS language structures that make such
a
construct seem possible.
The longer I think about it the more possible sentences like the above
mentioned example become.
Possibly You are right assuming a decrease in using "daun"-(to do)-
structures in LS has resulted from German influence. In former times
they
might have been much more widespread. If this is true for Eastern
Friesland
this process must have been very successful and it must have been farly
completed more than 40 years ago.

Kind regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 04:41:13 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:41:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.10 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.214113.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.10 (07) [E]

Luc Vanbrabant wrote:

> Don't forget the Flemish regions (Flemish is not a part of Zeelandic,
> they
> together are just quiet similar regardig that  Zeeland is a very tiny
> region
> compared with Flanders. Scientifically speaking I would  appoint
> Zeelandic
> as the most nordic form of Flemish.

And Ron:

> I would be all too happy to include Flemish everywhere and everytime.
> The problem is that I cannot do so alone.  I must rely on the good
> services of others, as I did when other lists were compiled and when our
> webpages were created.  Marco Evenhuis was so kind as to volunteer
> Zeelandic translations, and I was eager to snap it up.  What I am
> driving at here is that I would gladly add a Flemish version of our
> homepage (and one of the Rules and Guidelines page) if you and/or other
> Flemings on the list would do the translating bit.  All you need to do
> is send me the translated text, and I will post it.  Yes, folks, it
> would be fine to have it in more than one Flemish (and/or Brabantish)
> variety (as we do in the cases of Limburgish, Low Saxon, Frisian and
> Scots).

I don't believe it was ever suggested that
Flemish, or rather Western Flemish, is part
of Zeelandic. Zeelandic and Western Flemish
are two closely related regional languages, and
would there not have been any of the artificial
political boundaries as there are today, I think
the differences between Zeelandic and Western-
Flemish would even be smaller than they are
now.
The reason these two are often mentioned as a
whole, is merely because the differences are so
little. There are far more linguistic differences
within the Low Saxon area, although Low Saxon
is considered to be one language. But there you
have it again: as always, it is all just a question
of definition.

Anyway, I really would welcome versions of the
homepage in Western Flemish, Eastern Flemish,
Brabantish dialects, etcetera.
But I do have a problem with the random usage
of the word 'Flemish' in this respect. Flemish can
mean the Standard Dutch with some regional
influence as it is officially spoken in Belgium (and
as it can be heard in most Belgian tv-broadcasts).
Flemish can mean the whole of germanic dialects
spoken in Belgium (with exception of the few
German en Letzebuergish dialects in the east).
Flemish can be used with reference to the former
county of Flanders, so the present-day provinces
of East- and West-Flanders.
Flemish is also used as a name for the germanic
dialects of the northernmost part of France, while
the dialects spoken there are in fact dialects of
Western Flemish. To complicate things: with
respect to grammar and vocabulary, these French
Flemish dialects have more in common with
Zeelandic than with the Western Flemish of
a city like Bruges... Etcetera.

Please note that Eastern Flemish is very different
from Western Flemish (Friso-Franconian) and is
mostly categorized by linguists as Brabantish
(Franconian). A nice map where this is clearly
illustrated, can be found on
http://httpd.chello.nl/~w.vanwoerkom/krant/kaart_nederlandgroot.htm

I would suggest to use the correct terms for these
regional languages, so Zeeuws (Zeelandic), Brabants
(Brabantish), West-Vlaams (Western Flemish) and
treat Estern Flemish as a sort of subcategory of
Brabantish (just like Eastern Frisian or Twents are
treated as varieties of Low Saxon).

Then Luc Vanbrabant gave the 'Flemish' (so actually
the Western Flemish) name for the Lowlands:
_liig lan'_. This spelling points out another
interesting issue: Western Flemish hasn't yet got
a standard spelling or even some more or less
generally accepted basic principles for spelling
the language. For example, Luc's _liig lan'_ is
also spelled by others as:
_leege landen_
_lieege landen_
_ljeehe landn_
_lêhe lann_
_liehe laann_
etcetera.

In Zeêuws, where both _laeg_ and _leêg_ are used
for _low_ (but _leêg is getting a bit old-fashioned)
this would be spelled as _lêge landen_, which sounds
exactly the same as Luc's Western Flemish. A standard
spelling for all Zeelandic dialects, that can also be used
for Western Flemish dialects (although I actually hope
that Western Flemish eventually gets its own,
'customized' spelling), can be found at
www.zeeuws.cjb.net (click on 'schriefwiezer').

So if there is someone out there who is willing to write
texts for the homepage in Western Flemish, which I
hope there is, I would strongly advise to make sure
that the spelling that is used is at least consistent and
not just as 'illegible' to outstanders as possible. The
latter is very often the case with texts from regions
where people are just starting to find out that their
own language can actually be written.
I think Western Flanders (and that goes for Zeeland
as well) is lucky that they have a few good examples of
consistent, legible and well-founded spellings. Guido
Gezelle did some good, but very Dutch orientated work
and the works of Edmond de Coussemaeker, a 19th
century priest from French Flanders, on spelling are
excellent.
More recently, I found the spelling of the Western Flemish
dialect of Oostende on www.oostends.be quite good and
easy to read, although a bit inconsistent here and there.
To conclude I give you a few lines from a children's song
about a horse (_peerd_, _peird_, _paerd_, _rosse_, _orse_)
that De Coussemaker picked up in Kapellebroek
(Capellebrouck to the French):

Juteko te peeretje
te Cassel om e steeretje
t'Yper om azyn
is er t'Yper geene
gaot van dao nao Meenen
Is t't te Meenen goe koop
Brynckt er mee vuuf, zes stoop
Peeretje wil je wat zeere goan loopen
'k Za je e bakje vul haver koopen
't Peeretje liep den dryf den draf
En 't en hadde moar e bakje vul kaf.

Good luck to anyone who wants to give it a go with
Western Flemish, Eastern Flemish or Brabantish
translations!

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 05:00:48 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:00:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (11) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.220048.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dear Lowlanders,

I (not very familiar with horses and unfortunately allergic to them,
though very appreciative of them) submitted the Low Saxon term:

> /krüp-n+biit-r/ Krüppenbieter ['krYpm=bi:t3] ~
> /krüf-n+biit-r/
>    Krüppenbieter ['krYfm=bi:t3] 'inferior horse',
> '(old) nag'
>    ("crib biter," probably because it is not fed as
> well as more able
>    horses -- sad, but such are country life and the
> "good" old days)

Lone Olesen (very familiar with horses and probably not allergic to
them) kindly responded with the Danish equivalent:

> krybbebider (crib biter - a horse with the habit of
> swallowing air, it rests its teeth on the crib to get
> the right angle on the throat for doing it. The air
> can take up space inside the stomach and the horse
> will then eat less and become skinny).

Thanks for clearing that up, Lone.  It's sad enough a story, though not
as sad as the one I had fantasized about (i.e., a horse gnawing on the
wood of a crib for lack of food ...).

Below are a few more horse terms, some of them with question marks of
varying sizes, thus requiring your input, folks.

Is there a special Low Saxon (and/or other Lowlandic) term for a horse's
tail?  I can't think of any.  German has _Schweif_, which, although not
totally exclusive to horses, tends to be used most frequently in
connection with horses (and shooting stars), though more generic
_Schwanz_ 'tail' is also used (and the hairstyle "ponytail" is
_Pferdeschwanz_ "horse's tail").  In Low Saxon (Low German), I can think
only of generic _Steert_ [stE.I3t] ~ _Stiert_ [sti:3t] ~ _Start_ [sta:t]
(masc., pl. _Steerten_ ~ _Stierten_ ~ _Starten_), in some dialects
_Swanz_ [sva.n(t)s] ~ _Schwanz_ [Sva.n(t)s] ~ _Swanß_ [sva.ns] (masc.,
pl. _Swänz_ [svE.n(t)s] ~ _Schwänz_ [SvE.n(t)s] ~ _Swänß_ [svE.ns]).

(By the way, _Kohsteert_ [ko.UstE.I3t] "cow tail" can mean either 'cow's
tail' or 'dragonfly', the latter alternative to _Waterjumfer_
['vQ;t3jU.mf3] "water maiden" and _Speckfreter_ ['spEkfre:t3] "bacon
eater" ...)

What is the Low Saxon (Low German) word for "stirrup"?  My guess is that
it is *_Stiegbögel_ *['sti:Cbø:gl=], considering German _Steigbügel_,
Dutch _stijgbeugel_, Afrikaans _stiebeuel_, (not predictable
*_stybeuel_!), and (LS >) Danish _stigbøjle_.  Can anyone confirm or
deny Low Saxon *_Stiegbögel_?

What is the Low Saxon (Low German) word for "spur"?  German has _Sporn_
~ _Spore_ (pl. _Sporen_), Dutch and Afrikaans have _spoor_, Danish
_spore_, and Old Saxon _sporo_.  So my guess for Modern Low Saxon is
(*_Spore_ ~ >) *_Spoor_ (*[spo:3] or *[spo.U3]?).  Any input would be
appreciated.

Some more Low Saxon horse-related words:

/zeel/ Seel [ze:l] ~ [zE:l] 'rope', '(horse's) harness' (neut., pl.
   Selen)

/zeel-n+tüüg/ Selentüüg ['ze:lnty:C] ~ ['zE:lnty:C] '(horse's) harness'
   (neut., uncountable; < + Tüüg 'stuff', 'paraphernalia')

/peir(d')+köüp-r/ Peerköper ~ Pierkeuper ['pE:I3k9.Ip3] ~ ['pi:3k9.Ip3]
   'horse dealer' (masc., pl. Peerköpers ~ Pierkeupers; + Köper 'buyer'
   < /köüp-/ köpen 'to buy')

/peir(d')+tüxt-r/ Peertüchter ~ Piertüchter ['pE:I3tYCt3] ~
   ['pi:3tYCt3] ("horses cultivator") 'horse breeder' (masc., pl.
   Peertüchters ~ Piertüchters < Tucht [tUXt] 'breed' < _teh(g)en_
   'to pull/raise'; a German loan (Züchter < Zucht)?; might Danish
   _hesteopdrætter_ "horses up-raiser" 'horse breeder' be a calque
   based on older Low Saxon *_peyrdeopteyger_, cf. Modern Low Saxon
   _(up- ~ op-)te(g)hen_ 'to pull/raise (up)', 'to raise (children or
   animals)' (p. part. (ge-)tagen), e.g., Boorn un tagen was ik in
   Hamborg 'I was born and raised in Hamburg')

/peir(d')+stal/ Peerstall ~ Pierstall ['pE:I3sta.l] ~ ['pi:3sta.l]
   'hose stable' (masc., pl. Peerställ ~ Pierställ ['pE:I3stE.l] ~
   ['pi:3stE.l]; Danish _hestestald_; < + Stall 'stable')

/peir(d')+deek/ Peerdeek ~ Pierdeek ['pE:I3de:k] ~ ['pi:3de:k] 'horse
   blanket' (fem., pl. Peerdeken ~ Pierdeken; cf. Danish _hestedækken_;
   < + Deek 'cover', 'blanket')

/stal+knext/ Stallknecht ['sta.lknEC(t)] 'stable hand', 'groom'
   (masc., pl. Stallknechten; cf. Dutch _stalknecht_; < Stall
   'stable' + Knecht 'servant', 'farmhand' {cognate of English
   "knight"})

/peir(d')+kamer/ Peerkamer ~ Pierkomer ['pE:I3kQ:k3] ~ ['pi:3ko:m3]
   'groom's room (next to the horse stables)' (fem., pl. Peerkamern
   ~ Pierkomern; < + Kamer ~ Komer 'chamber', '(small) room')

Hmmm ... and then there is this _klaphingst_, _klophingst_, etc.
(stallion with one testicle).  I am not familiar with this rather
specialized term (or the condition, and I don't understand this
reference to _kloppen_ 'to knock' or _klappen_ 'to knock', 'to clap',
'to fold').  I would expect something like *_Klopphingst_ or
*_Klapphingst_ in Low Saxon then, but I do not know if it exists.

By the way, _Klapp_ [klap] (fem., pl. _Klappen_) can also refer to a
small stable door (besides 'tailgate', 'flap' or '(hinged) lid'), one of
those that does not cover the entire doorway, fairly typical of horse
stables, I guess.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 18:01:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:01:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.110151.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Slagen-Dragen-Vragen

Beste leeglanners,

In Brabantish the verb "slaan" does not exist...not with a meaning of
"to hit" nor with a meaning of "to succeed"...only "slagen" is used...I
tend to think the variety with no "g" in the middle is restricted to
coastal areas along the North Sea...especially because there
traditionally such a "g" is very lightly (more like an "h" or not at
all) pronounced.
We have :
slagen-sloeg-geslagen (or geslegen); meaning usually "to hit, to beat"
or "to slaughter (an animal)"
dragen-droeg-gedragen (or gedregen); meaning usually "to carry, to bear"
vragen-vroeg-gevraagd ; meaning usually "to ask"
It would surprise me very much if ever the verb "slaan" was used in an
older version of Brabantish, but as I told you before, I don't have my
books with me here in Bangkok, so please correct me if I'm wrong...
If we want to express the fact that somebody has succeeded in something,
or has passed a test (in standard Dutch : "geslaagd") we'd say :
"A est er deu" in Brabantish, litterally "Hij is er door" in Dutch. I
can't think immediately of a specific verb expressing the (rather
abstract) meaning of "slagen" (D), "to succeed" (E)...unless "lukken"
maybe but that usually refers to objects, not so much to people.
Greetings...

Luc Hellinckx

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 18:04:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:04:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.110441.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Slagen-Dragen-Vragen

Beste leeglanners,

In Brabantish the verb "slaan" does not exist...not with a meaning of
"to hit" nor with a meaning of "to succeed"...only "slagen" is used...I
tend to think the variety with no "g" in the middle is restricted to
coastal areas along the North Sea...especially because there
traditionally such a "g" is very lightly (more like an "h" or not at
all) pronounced.
We have :
slagen-sloeg-geslagen (or geslegen); meaning usually "to hit, to beat"
or "to slaughter (an animal)"
dragen-droeg-gedragen (or gedregen); meaning usually "to carry, to bear"
vragen-vroeg-gevraagd ; meaning usually "to ask"
It would surprise me very much if ever the verb "slaan" was used in an
older version of Brabantish, but as I told you before, I don't have my
books with me here in Bangkok, so please correct me if I'm wrong...
If we want to express the fact that somebody has succeeded in something,
or has passed a test (in standard Dutch : "geslaagd") we'd say :
"A est er deu" in Brabantish, litterally "Hij is er door" in Dutch. I
can't think immediately of a specific verb expressing the (rather
abstract) meaning of "slagen" (D), "to succeed" (E)...unless "lukken"
maybe but that usually refers to objects, not so much to people.
Greetings...

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (11) [E]

Ron asked:

> What is the Low Saxon (Low German) word for "stirrup"?  My guess is that
> it is *_Stiegbögel_ *['sti:Cbø:gl=], considering German _Steigbügel_,
> Dutch _stijgbeugel_, Afrikaans _stiebeuel_, (not predictable
> *_stybeuel_!), and (LS >) Danish _stigbøjle_.  Can anyone confirm or
> deny Low Saxon *_Stiegbögel_?

You mention Afrikaans _stiebeuel_, which sounds very
Zeelandic to me for the obvious reason that it has an _ie_
in stead of an Afrikaans _y_ (Dutch _ij_). In Zeelandic,
'stirrup' is _stiegbeugel_. Note that the g's in this word
are pronounced as an h (_stiehbeuhel), so the Zeelandic
and the Afrikaans words sound very similar indeed.
I always wondered about the influence of Zeelandic on
Afrikaans. It must have been quite substantial since a
large part, if not the majaority, of the first settlers in the
Western Cape were of Zeelandic origin. In other parts of
the world (US Virgin Islands: 'Negerhollands', Guyana:
'Berbice Dutch' and 'Skepi Dutch', the state of New
York 'Mohawk Dutch') the marks that 'Dutch' left
behind, are predominantly Zeelandic and can easily be
identified as such. I kind of expected the same for Afrikaans,
but apart from this _stiebeuel_ and some other small
examples, the Zeelandic influence in Afrikaans is not that
clear at all.

To come back to the 'horse-issue', Ron mentions the _klaphingst_
or _klophingst_. I already mentioned Zeelandic has the same word
for this handicaped stallion (with one testicle): _klop'iengst_. One
would expect it to be a Standard Dutch term as well, but as far as I
know it isn't.
Zeeuws has the verb _kloppe(n)_ in the meaning of 'to sharpen
a scythe'. I believe it goes a bit too far to state that a _klop'iengst_
is a horse that met a well sharpened scythe...

Anyway, a few more Zeelandic words related to horses:

_paerebagge_: feeding basket for horses
_paerebônen_: garden beans (once only good for horse food)
_paeremeêster_: a veterinary
_paeremogge_: crane fly
_paerepoôt_: club-foot
_paereroôze_: peony (Paeonia officianalis)
_'t paerestal_: horse stable
_paerestekel_: ? (Dypsacus silvestris)
_paerewachtertje_: wagtail (Motacilla alba)
_paerig_: in heat (only used in respect to horses)

and then:
_paerig_: forming a pair together
_paer_: even (French: pair)
_onpaer_: odd (French: impair)

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 18:07:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:07:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Roots" 2002.06.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.110716.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: Sachsen780 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (02) [E]

Hi Rheinhard,

thank you for correcting me for how I had written my first note to the
group.  How
important it is to be concise when addressing the particulars of
linguistic detail.

As I am a novice to the particulars of my ancestral language, I find the
tightrope to
tread between my use of standard (American) english, high German and low
Saxon very
invigorating to say the least.

As I have researched my surname family history, I have learned that the
part of Germany
now called Lower Saxony has had quite a few name changes since the late
1700's.  However,
from my studies I believe that rural peoples have always considered
themselves to be of
their own local realm instead of members of the state (except for on
ship's lists,
official certificates, et cetera), whatever the new name.

So, the friends I have made in Emsland consider themselves an Emslander,
as the people of
the past most certainly did.

Thanks to this format I am able to correctly refer to place names and
spoken language in
discussion.  My people likely spoke Neddersassisch or Low Saxon.  How
thrilling it was to
be in Wettrup (in Emsland) recently, enjoying Krombacher beer with local
folk,
communicating in what I thought was the language of my ancestors.  Low
Saxon speakers
there offered to me that those ancestors did not speak high German when
they emigrated,
and that they would not understand most people in their homeland if in
someway they were
to return.  How enlightening that was.

Thanks for the lesson.

S  T  E  V  E

p.s. I pledge to keep my remarks/queries brief in the future.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 23:20:38 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:20:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.11 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.162038.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (09) [D/E]

>From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
>Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]
>
>>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Grammar
...
>>>
>>> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
>>> (Wat daaist dí±ªí°¨ier taau zitn?)
>>> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
>>> What do you keep sitting around here for?
...>>> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>>
>>Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?
>>
>>*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten?

Hello Ron !
By the way - it is "hier" not "hi:r". I don't use the German based
orthography for EFLS so ~ie~ isn't a long ~i~. /i:/ and /ie/ are
different
sounds (phonemes).
Have an example: "bi:l" [bi:l] (hatchet) / "biel" [bI:l or bI. at l]
(buttock)
Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 14:20:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:20:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.072024.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Jorge Potter" <jorgepot at caribe.net>
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (02) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

As a child between 9 and 12 years of age I lived in a central New York
community that was more than half of German descent, but I never heard
German spoken. We always used "Alley, alley in free!" in tag games, but
it
never occurred to me it could come from German. Later on when I acquired
a
smattering of words in different languages, I assumed it was the French
"allez," in spite of the fact our area had no French people.

"Alles" makes sense.

Jorge Potter

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 14:35:18 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:35:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.073518.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
Subject: Etymology

Subject: Etymology
David Elsmworth wrote:
As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
all
exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
the equivalent german verbs.
However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen are strong irregular
verbs, fragen is in fact a weak
verb, which is somewhat quite puzzling.

I feel also why the past form of "fragen" is "frgte", but not "frug".
But in old time, it should
habe been "frug".  I am not a native speaker of German, and not a
"Fachsprachwissenschaftler".  I
think that language is cahnging every day. In some time, the form of
"frug" was not used gradually
and changed to "fragte". Can any one give your opinion or comment?

Regards,

Yasuji Waki

Yasuji Waki
E-mail: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
Addr: 1-2-6-104, Midoridai, Funabashi,
Chiba Pref. Japan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Actually, German /fraag-/ _fragen_ 'to ask' is still both a weak and a
strong verb, depending on one's dialect.  It is true that most people
now use the preterite form _fragte_ (i.e., treat the verb as weak), but
some speakers and writers, especially older ones, still can be observed
to use _frug_ (i.e., treat the verb as strong).  I therefore believe it
is fair to say that German /fraag-/ is in a late stage of transition to
becoming a strong verb.

Low Saxon (Low German) also has variation in /fraag-/ 'to ask' between
strong (preterite _froog'_ [fro:UG] ~ _froog_ [fro.Ux] ~ _fröög'_
[fr9:Ij] ~ _fröög_ [fr9.IC]) and weak (preterite _fraagte_ ~ _fraagde_
['frQ:xte] ~ ['fro:xte]), again depending on the dialect.  It would be
interesting to find out if there, too, there is a shift toward the weak
choice, and, if so, if this is because of the shift in ("High") German.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 15:36:20 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:36:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.083620.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

It happens quite often that (former) subscribers write to me asking to
be readmitted to Lowlands-L, and most of them turn out to have assumed
that I had "kicked them out" because of non-participation (i.e., being
charged guilty of excessive lurking).  In most cases (especially in
cases of habitual lurkers) I had not even noticed that they were no
longer subscribed.  In a couple of cases, the returning subscribers had
assumed that I had "kicked them out" for excessive participation or for
some sort of _faux pas_ or misdemeanor.

Please let me make this quite clear once and for all:

(1) I would *never* kick anyone out without due prior warning and a
number of attempts to get them to mend their ways, and I would
communicate with them about this privately.  This has happened very
rarely in the seven-year history of Lowlands-L.  Such a thing does not
happen unless there is gross misbehavior (e.g., "flaming," verbal or
psychological abuse, or flagrant expressions of disrespect) or repeated
breaking of the rules and no hope of redemption.

(2) "Lurking" (i.e., being a passive, reading subscriber rather than a
participating, "vocal" one) is not against the rules.  In fact, it is
your right to lurk to your hearts' content.  This personal choice would
never make you subscribers in bad standing (though I would encourage you
to participate if all that is holding you back are a feeling of
intimidation, perceived lack of language skills or "academic expertise,"
and/or fear of being ridiculed, for I will not permit anyone to be put
down, and our participants are not inclined to do so anyway).

(3) If you suddenly find yourself unsubscribed (i.e., the LL-L issues
stop coming for more than, say, four days), the most likely reason is
that the list server (a machine/program, not a person) has automatically
unsubscribed you.  It does so whenever mail to your address keeps
bouncing back as undeliverable for a number of days.  The server will
try to redeliver the mail quite a number of times, for several days, in
certain intervals.  It will give up at a certain point and will
unsubscribe the problematic address.  More often than not, the reason is
that someone has allowed his or her mailbox to be filled to capacity
("over quota") and has not done anything about it for many days.  This
is why I suggest you unsubscribe if your mail quota is small and you
travel somewhere where you have no access to your email, and then to
resubscribe after your return.

(4) To resubscribe, you can write to me (sassisch at yahoo.com).  Better
still, use the subscription application form on our welcoming pages
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/) and in the textbox
("What you hope to gain from being a subscriber to Lowlands-L") just
mention that you are a returning subscriber.  The application will come
to me (or whoever stands in for me), and I (or he/she) will make sure
that you are resubscribed.

On another note, let me ask if we have any volunteers willing to write
those introductory blurbs about Lowlands languages.  They must be brief,
could even be as brief one paragraph each.  The way I envisage it is
having one intro blurb for one language or "group of language
varieties," and then linked to it optional blurbs about special language
varieties.  For instance, we would have a blurb for Scots and then
"sub-blurbs" for Mainland Scots, Ulster Scots and Shetlandic.  Later we
could expand by adding "sub-sub-blurbs" for any specific dialects anyone
cares to write about.  If you wish, you could write in teams and then
send it to me for posting.  Or you could write a blurb draft and post it
as such to the List, inviting input/critique from others before
submitting the final blurb.  You could always change the text later,
even after it has been posted on the web.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 16:06:56 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:06:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.090656.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.12 (02) [E]

> From: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Subject: Etymology
> David Elsmworth wrote:
> As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
> all
> exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
> the equivalent german verbs.
> However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen are strong irregular
> verbs, fragen is in fact a weak
> verb, which is somewhat quite puzzling.
>
> I feel also why the past form of "fragen" is "frgte", but not "frug".
> But in old time, it should
> habe been "frug".  I am not a native speaker of German, and not a
> "Fachsprachwissenschaftler".  I
> think that language is cahnging every day. In some time, the form of
> "frug" was not used gradually
> and changed to "fragte". Can any one give your opinion or comment?
>
> Regards,
>
> Yasuji Waki
>
> Yasuji Waki
> E-mail: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
> Addr: 1-2-6-104, Midoridai, Funabashi,
> Chiba Pref. Japan
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Actually, German /fraag-/ _fragen_ 'to ask' is still both a weak and a
> strong verb, depending on one's dialect.  It is true that most people
> now use the preterite form _fragte_ (i.e., treat the verb as weak), but
> some speakers and writers, especially older ones, still can be observed
> to use _frug_ (i.e., treat the verb as strong).  I therefore believe it
> is fair to say that German /fraag-/ is in a late stage of transition to
> becoming a strong verb.
>
> Low Saxon (Low German) also has variation in /fraag-/ 'to ask' between
> strong (preterite _froog'_ [fro:UG] ~ _froog_ [fro.Ux] ~ _fröög'_
> [fr9:Ij] ~ _fröög_ [fr9.IC]) and weak (preterite _fraagte_ ~ _fraagde_
> ['frQ:xte] ~ ['fro:xte]), again depending on the dialect.  It would be
> interesting to find out if there, too, there is a shift toward the weak
> choice, and, if so, if this is because of the shift in ("High") German.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Actually, I lived in Palatia for five years, on the Rhine near
Ludwigshafen (roughly around Heidelberg). People there say "er frägt"
for "he asks", in analogy with "er schlägt" (he beats) and "er trägt"
(he carries). To a Northern German like me, however, that sounds
horribly wrong...

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Actually, Gabriele, I have heard some people say _er frägt_ [?Ea fre:ct]
in Hamburg Missingsch* as well.  One person I remember using that form
grew up in the northwestern part of Hamburg (Altona.  But in Hamburg you
never really know what kinds of language strata accumulations you are
dealing with, because people from all over Germany (and beyond) have
settled there (many of them would-be emigrants who did not make it onto
ships), and some families have their own substrata of their ancestral
non-local dialects.  (My own family would be a case in point, because
three of my grandparents were born and raised far away in the east, and
the fourth's mother came from Eastern Prussia from a town that iis now
on the Polish-Russian border.)

* "Missingsch" denotes German dialects based on Low Saxon (Low German)
  substrata ("German with Low Saxon interference," if you will).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 19:01:40 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:01:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.12 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.120140.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.10 (03) [E]

Dear Ron, Lowlanders

The Scots term for an English person is,"sassensach." I personally feel
that this must be connected to the Low Saxon word to describe a saxon.

Regards
David Elsworth.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

David,

Apparently you are right (above).  Scottish Gaelig _Sasunn_ is 'England'
(originally "Saxon") and _Sasannach_ is 'English' (either adjective or
nominal 'English person', originally "Saxon").  Note also names like
Irish _Sacs-Bhéarla_ for 'English language' ("Saxon gobbledigook"),
_Saxain_ for 'England' and _Saxanach_ for 'English (person)'.  Manx has
_Sostyn_ for 'England' and _Sostnagh_ for 'English (person)'  Similarly
Breton has _Bro-Saoz_ 'England' and _saozneg_ 'English (language)'
(though lately French-based _Bro an Anglizien_ and _anglich_
respectively have been encroaching).  Of course, this required these
languages to create new names for "real" 'Saxon' etc., e.g., Irish
_Saxa_

On the other hand, note that Finnish has _Saksa_ (originally "Saxony")
for 'Germany' (and _saksalainen_ for 'German', _saksan kieli_ for
'German language', etc.), similarly Estonian _Saksa_ (_sakslane_ and
_saksa keel_), obviously because medieval Saxony (today's Northern
Germany, from which Saxon-speaking Hanseatic traders reached Baltic
seaports) came to represent the earlier vague entity "Germany."  Again,
later this required creating new names for "real" 'Saxony', etc., e.g.,
Finnish _Saksi_ 'Saxony', _saksilainen_ 'Saxon', _saksin kieli_ 'Saxon
language', similarly Estonian _Saksi_, _saks_, _saksi keel_
respectively.

Regards.
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 21:58:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:58:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.12 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.145841.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Kudos to Gary Taylor, one of our subscribers, who has taken the first
step toward an online "blurb" collection about Lowlands language
varieties.  He has written a brief introduction to Estuary English, a
dialect of England English.  I find it very interesting and have asked
Gary if I could share it with you before it ends up in an online
collection (whenever that will be), and Gary kindly agreed to that.
Please find a copy further below.

Gary and other British-savvy Lowlanders, the description sounds pretty
much like the dialect of several people I have heard talk "on the
tellie" lately.  Would the English TV cook Jamie Oliver (of "The Naked
Chef" and "Oliver's Twist" fame) be one of those speakers?

Lowlanders, please note that Gary wrote his intro without knowing what
format to use.  I think he did a great job.

Personally, I favor the following setup:

1 Overall language introductions should be concise, briefly outlining
  origin (including classification), history, spread, varieties,
  speakers, media use (incl. literature), and administrative and
  educational status.  (It would be good to use subheadings.)
  Altogether, an introduction should probably not exceed four
  word-processed pages and could be as brief as a quarter of a page.

2 Introductions to specific dialects or dialect groups (to which we
  will link off the respective overall language introductions) can be
  in any format.  I would like to see them as small essay-type
  descriptions that are written in the authors' preferred formats
  and styles.  I do not think that uniformity is necessary.  Gary's
  format and style would be one of many possibilities.

Gary and I agree that his introduction to Estuary English will serve as
type 2, linked to from the general introduction page for English.
Please feel free to add other such descriptions -- the more the
merrier.  (English dialects do not have to be only those used in England
but can be any type of English anywhere in the world.)

If you, either singly or in groups, write 1- or 2-type introductions
(about *any* Lowlands language varieties or groups), you might like but
are not obligated to post final draft versions to the List (either
directly or via me) to invite some feedback/input from others before
they are published on the web.

If you do not feel confident writing in English you could either write
your introduction in your own language or in a language in which you
feel more confident, and someone will translate it.  (These do not have
to be Lowlands languages.)  In that case the original version and the
English translation will be posted, hopefully later other translations
as well.  If you do not feel too sure about your English proficiency but
wish to write in English anyway, someone will proofread your draft, and
only the polished version will be posted on the web.

The names of the authors will appear with their works.  By submitting
your "blurbs" you will be considered agreeing to have them posted on the
web.

Please remember that no language variety ought to and will be viewed as
insignificant or uninteresting, and perceived qualities such as
"unsophisticated" or "low-class" are totally irrelevant, though
sociolinguistic aspects such as commonly held perceptions of levels of
prestige may and perhaps should be mentioned in the introductions.

Again, thanks to Gary Taylor for taking the lead so admirably ably!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

ESTUARY ENGLISH

by Gary Taylor

Estuary English, or Popular London English, is the form of English as
spoken in London and the South East of England and is currently gaining
some ground as a new 'standard' for England English being used by many
newsreporters, politicians and prominent people. The accent is largely
based on London Cockney English with the most 'frowned upon' features
taken out. As standard England English (RP) developed from a triangle
between London, Oxford and Cambridge, many of the dialect words of this
area were incorporated into the standard. This has the result that
Estuary doesn't have many unique local dialect words, however the accent
often differs from RP. Below are some of the main differences:

* Glottaling. This refers to changing a t in syllable final position
into a glottal stop.  For example " get " > " ge' " (In Cockney this is
extended to t between vowels [be'er instead of better])

* l-vocalisation. This refers to the changing of l before a consonant,
or l in phrase final position to a sound similar to 'w' or 'u'.  For
example " milk " > " mi-wk " " hell " > " he-w " but " hell and back "
hell am back " (l pronounced due to the following a) l-vocalisation
leads to lots of words collapsing to sound the same when not followed by
a vowel. For example " fool " " full " and " fall " are all pronounced
identically as " fu-w " but before vowels they are pronounced as in RP.
"fail" and "foul" are pronounced "fow" (to rhyme with "now") when not
followed by a vowel, but the same as RP with a vowel.

* The 'or' split. This refers to the sound 'or' of RP as in 'bought' and
'door' (note, the r in this position is not pronounced in RP English so
the sound is the same for both). In Estuary this RP 'or' has split
depending on the position. If the base word has this sound and then a
consonant then in Estuary it is pronounced 'u-w'. If there is no
consonant then it is pronounced 'or' as in RP.  Thus 'door' is
pronounced as in RP, whereas 'corn' is pronounced 'cu-wn'. This leads to
interesting differences in pronunciation between 'bored' and 'board'
(identical in RP). 'bored' is based on the word 'bore' so is pronounced
as in RP 'bord', however 'board' being followed by a consonant is
pronounced 'bu-wd' (which is identical with Estuary 'bald'!).

* Palatalisations. When a t is followed by a u (yu) or an r it has the
pronunciation of ch. The combination 'stu' and 'str' are pronounced
'shchu' and 'shchr' respectively For example " Tuesday " = " Choozdi " "
train " = " chrain " " stupid " = " shchupid " " string " = " shchring "

* Linking letters. Estuary has many linking letters, which although
quite common in England English, are less common in the other
Englishes.  Linking y : 'me and you' = 'meyan yu' 'high up' = 'hiyupp'
'AAA' = 'AyAyA' Linking w : 'you and me' = 'yuwan me' 'do it again' =
'dowi' agen' Linking r : 'Canada is' = 'Canadariz' 'drawing' = 'drorin'

I howp youv injoid this littuw look a' Eshchry Ingglish

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 13 14:47:35 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:47:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.074735.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.12 (05) [E]

14:58 12-6-2002 -0700, Lowlands-L:
Gary Taylor, about Estuary English:

>* l-vocalisation. This refers to the changing of l before a consonant,
>or l in phrase final position to a sound similar to 'w' or 'u'.  For
>example " milk " > " mi-wk " " hell " > " he-w " but " hell and back "
>hell am back " (l pronounced due to the following a).

I sometimes wonder if there could be some historic link in the
development of such accents across he North Sea, because the l in
Dutch is so similar: in the "standard" accent in is slightly dark in
exactly the same positions as in English RP, but the stronger
darkening a.k.a. vocalisation as described above also occurs in
accents in the West of the Netherlands, especially the Hague, but
also Rotterdam, Amsterdam etc.
So the verbs "vernieuwen" and "vernielen" (renew; demolish, destroy)
sound very different, but the past participles "verniewd" and
"vernield" have almost identical pronunciation.

There are also strong similarities (and small differences) between
oo-sounds (as in English boat, Dutch boot) in RP and Estuary, and in
Rotterdam and the Hague city accents. A similar sound occurs in
Breda (Brabant). Also in Groningen accents of Dutch (influenced by
Low-Saxon?), Low-Saxon as heard on Radio Bremen, and in Lëtzeburgesch.
I don't say they're all the same, but they are a bit similar.

Of course acoustic similarity doesn't necessary betray geographical
proximity or historical links: the vocalised l is also found in
Brasil, which almost sounds as Brasíu there.
--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 12 June 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ruud:

> Of course acoustic similarity doesn't necessary betray geographical
> proximity or historical links: the vocalised l is also found in
> Brasil, which almost sounds as Brasíu there.

I would say it does sound just like [br@'ziu] in many cases, in other
cases perhaps like [br@'ziw].  I believe this occurs also in some
dialects of Portugal.  In Portuguese, syllable-final /l/ is always velar
("thick," as in English "ball"), thus _Brasil_ [br@'ziL\].  A shift from
velar [L\] to [w] (and [u]) is very common among the world's languages,
and it does tend to occur in clusters, thus as an areal feature.  The
velar /l/ (written as a slashed <l>) in most Polish, Kashubian, Lower
Sorbian and Upper Sorbian dialects is also pronounced [w] (like English
"w" in "won" or "how").  In Standard Lower and Upper Sorbian this
totally coincides phonetically with what is written <w> (as though they
were the same phoneme, unlike Polish and Kashubian where <w> is
pronounced [v]), but the two are still distinguished orthographically.

Low Saxon (Low German) also has a velar allophone of /l/, always
syllable-finally, as in Portuguese, but in most dialects only after back
vowels (/ul/, /uul/ /ol/, /ool/, /oul/, /aal/), and in some dialects it
may be realized as [w] after back rounded vowels (/ul/, /uul/ /ol/,
/ool/, /oul/).  However, assumedly under German influence, this
distinction between apical ("tongue tip") [l] and velar [L\] appears to
be falling by the wayside in the Low Saxon dialects of Germany, and the
velar allophone seems to be vanishing.  So, for instance _Uul_ 'owl'
used to be (and by some speakers still is) pronounced [?u:L\] or even
[?u:w], but you will now hear mostly [?u:l].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 13 19:15:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:15:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.121534.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (01) [E]

May I add that Low Saxon from the Rendsborg District
in Slesvig-Holsten has a similar l-dropping in words
as e.g. "milk" which we pronounce "mee-ak"

----------

From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (01) [E]

Hi,

You forgot the dialect of the city of Leiden (Leyden). There they really
have the English L!! Also in the west. Of Holland.

W!M   wkv at home.nl
[Wim Verdoold]

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Dear all

Ruud wrote:

>I sometimes wonder if there could be some historic
link in the
>development of such accents across he North Sea,
because the l in
>Dutch is so similar: in the "standard" accent in is
slightly dark in
>exactly the same positions as in English RP, but the
stronger
>darkening a.k.a. vocalisation as described above also
occurs in
>accents in the West of the Netherlands, especially
the Hague, but
>also Rotterdam, Amsterdam etc.

As Ron also says, l-vocalisation is particularly
common in languages. It does tend to occur after back
vowels, such that standard Dutch now has 'oud' for
old, Scots has 'faw' for fall, Westerlauwers Frisian
'l' is also often silent in this position and English
varieties all have 'walk', 'talk' etc. without
pronunciation of the 'l'. I think l-vocalisations are
also common in Southern US English, and also
Newfoundland, but not in between.

That South East England English and accents in the
West of the Netherlands are beginning to have this
l-vocalisation after all vowels is perhaps more
interesting. However, if there is an influence between
the two which way is it going? My grandmother used
l-vocalisations and she was 94 when she died last
year. There are also still many speakers who fluctuate
between 'l' and 'w'. Do you know how old this feature
is in the Netherlands? (I've just started a PhD
looking into vocalisations in Germanic languages, so
any help would be invaluable at this early stage!)

Gary

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

In various types of Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on Low Saxon
substrates) and in some other Northern German dialects (and the
borderline between the two types is not really distinct), /l/ is
patalatized to surface as /j/ or as coda /i/, after rounded vowels also
as the rounded counterparts [H] or [y], between a non-low front vowel
and a following velar; e.g., Milch [mI.jC] ~ [mI.iC] (milk), melken
['mE.jkN=] ~ ['mE.ikN=] (to milk), Völker ['f9.jk3`] ~ ['f9.ik3`] ~
['f9.Hk3`] ~ ['f9.yk3`] (nations).

This rule applies in many Low Saxon (Low German) dialects as well; e.g.,
Melk [mE.jk] ~ [mE.ik] (milk).  In dialects in which the "thick" (velar)
allophone of /l/ is retained (see my previous posting) after any type of
vowel, especially in the farwestern ranges, the "disharmony" between
velar /l/ and palatovelar /k/, /g/ or /x/ (> [C]) is overcome by means
of an epenthetic (inserted, separating) vowel, much like it is done in
many Dutch dialects; e.g., _Melk_ [mE.L`@k] (milk, sounding like
"mellek").

As far as I know, l-vocalization tends to apply more extensively in many
South German dialects (of Bavaria and Austria), also after other types
of vowels; e.g., Volk [fOik] ~ [fOyk] ~ [fOYk].

Of course, l-vocalization is mandatory in most English dialects between
a rounded vowel and another coda consonant; e.g., Holmes [hoUmz], folk
[foUk], Polka ['poUk@]; sporadically also l-vocalization (perceived as
deletion) after other types of vowels; e.g., walk [wQ:k] ~ [wo:k], talk
[tQ:k] ~ [to:k], almond ['?Q:m at nd], salmon ['s{m at n].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: For phonetic notation used here, please see
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 13 20:09:32 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:09:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.06.13 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.130932.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: ???

I just received some information that might be interesting
to other subscribers as well. See below.

Regards,


Marco

================

Zevende Dialectendag op za 22 maart 2003 te Middelburg; oproep tot
deelname aan een dialectenquete over zinnetjes en rijmpjes die een
dialect
karakteriseren

===============================================
Zevende Dialectendag: "Aan uw taal heb ik u herkend!" (Matth. 26:73)
================================================

Op 22 maart 2003 organiseert de Stichting Nederlandse Dialecten (SND)
voor de 7de keer haar tweejaarlijkse Dialectendag. Dialectliefhebbers
uit Vlaanderen en Nederland zullen in het Zeeuwse Middelburg onthaald
worden op een gevarieerd programma met toegankelijke en informatieve
lezingen, werkwinkels, een cafe-chantant en een boekenmarkt. Deze keer
staat 'beeldvorming rond dialecten' centraal. Dat is meteen ook het
thema van het dialectenboek dat naar aanleiding van deze dag
samengesteld wordt. Om er een rijk gestoffeerd werk van te maken, zoekt
de SND in het hele Nederlandse taalgebied vrijwillige medewerkers om
een enquete over populaire noties i.v.m. dialecten in te vullen.

Dialectsprekers zijn zich van bepaalde dialectkenmerken veel meer
bewust dan van andere. Opvallende kenmerken genieten in de eigen streek
en soms zelfs ver daarbuiten een ruime bekendheid. Wat als opvallend of
afwijkend ervaren wordt, vindt bovendien vaak zijn weg in
dialectrijmpjes en (spot)zinnetjes, of in spotnamen voor de inwoners
van een bepaalde plaats.

Enkele voorbeelden: over het dialect van Sittard zegt men "er zit met
veir potte beir en e koffiekuikske in e huikske", iemand uit Assendelft
wordt ongetwijfeld wel eens geplaagd met "as je weer op me hekkie komme
zel ik je mit me ooiaak in je atje ikke" en voor iemand uit Dokkum zal
"faider, de balaiker stait op 'e taifel" niet onbekend zijn. Om
bepaalde West-Vlaamse dialecten te typeren, gebruikt men graag het
zinnetje "'t is e ruut uut tuus en 't rint trin". Op de grens tussen
Oost-Vlaanderen en Brabant is "draa raa aaren mi ne praa derbaa" in
allerlei varianten te horen. En zo bestaan er ongetwijfeld nog een hele
reeks andere zinnetjes. De Stichting Nederlandse Dialecten wil graag
dergelijke zinnetjes verzamelen uit het hele Nederlandse taalgebied.

Kent u deze of andere stereotiepe uitspraken, zinnetjes, rijmpjes of
spotnamen over bepaalde dialecten in uw omgeving? Gelieve die dan
hieronder (of op een apart blad) te noteren.

Belangrijk is wel dat we niet zomaar typische woorden of uitdrukkingen
uit een bepaald dialect zoeken, maar werkelijk uitingen waarmee mensen
het dialect van anderen typeren of (vriendelijk) bespotten.

De gegevens kunt u terugsturen naar de onderstaande adressen. Gelieve
bij elk voorbeeld te vermelden op welk dialect, welke plaats of welk
gebied het van toepassing is. U zou ons ook een grote dienst bewijzen
door de uitspraak zo nauwkeurig mogelijk weer te geven.

Voor Belgie: Veronique De Tier - Universiteit Gent, Vakgroep
Nederlandse Taalkunde, Blandijnberg 2, 9000 Gent - e-mail : snd at mail.be

Voor Nederland: Ton van de Wijngaard =AD KUN, Afdeling ATD, Postbus
9103, 6500 HD Nijmegen - e-mail: snd at mail.be
Op de website van het Vlaams Centrum voor Volkscultuur
(http://www.vcv.be/) kunt u een pdf-file van deze enquete downloaden.

Graag krijgen we bovendien ook de volgende gegevens.
- uw naam en adres (optioneel: de gegevens worden anoniem verwerkt)
- huidige woonplaats
- plaats waar u uw jeugd doorbracht
- geboortejaar
- man/vrouw
- wenst wel/niet geinformeerd te worden over de dialectendag in
  Middelburg.

Indien u informatie wenst over de zevende Dialectendag in Middelburg op
zaterdag 22 maart 2003 of de (eerder verschenen) dialectenboeken uit
deze reeks, gelieve dan hieronder uw naam en adres (en eventueel
e-mailadres) te noteren.

De Stichting Nederlandse Dialecten dankt u van harte voor de
medewerking!

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 00:04:05 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:04:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.13 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.170405.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

[English below]

Leeglanners,

Nu wöörd' ik daar jüst an dinken, wo Fiete Neumann nulest schreev', ik
meen dat mit "Leegland" sachs so 'n lütt beten spaassig, un ik seeg',
tjer, eerder halv spaassig un halv eernst, dat "leeg" in 'n paar
neddersassische (nedderdüütsche) Dialekten ook vundagigendaags noch
"deep un platt" bedüden deit, nich bloots "slecht."  Ik harr ook seggt,
dat na mien Verscheel dat Woord "Siedland" nich so 'n groot, wied Rebeed
bedüden deit as dat, wat wi hier "Lowlands" nömen doot.

Un nu is mi dat wedder in d'n olen Bregenkassen trüggkamen: Ik wöörd'
"Siedland" up (Hoog-)Düütsch as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ översetten,
"Leegland" tomehrst as _Tiefebene_ (as in "Nordeuropäische Tiefebene").

Wat meent Ji?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Lowlanders,

I was just now reminded of Fiete Neumann recently saying he was assuming
I was using the name _Leegland_ in Low Saxon (Low German) in a jocular
manner (since _leeg_ means 'bad', 'inferior'), and I responded that I
was only half joking, that _leeg_ still means 'low and flat' in several
modern dialects, not only 'inferior'.  I also said that in my opinion
the word _Siedland_ does not denote as vast an area as the one to which
we refer as "Lowlands" here.

And now it has just clicked in the old brain: while Low Saxon _Siedland_
is best translated as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ in (High) German ('(marshy)
stretch of low-lying land'), _Leegland_ is often best translated as
_Tiefebene_ ('lowlands', 'plain(s)', as in _Nordeuropäische Tiefebene_
'North European Lowland/Plains').

What do others think?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 14:56:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:56:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.075641.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.13 (04) [E/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> [English below]
>
> Leeglanners,
>
> Nu wöörd' ik daar jüst an dinken, wo Fiete Neumann
> nulest schreev', ik
> meen dat mit "Leegland" sachs so 'n lütt beten
> spaassig, un ik seeg',
> tjer, eerder halv spaassig un halv eernst, dat
> "leeg" in 'n paar
> neddersassische (nedderdüütsche) Dialekten ook
> vundagigendaags noch
> "deep un platt" bedüden deit, nich bloots "slecht."
> Ik harr ook seggt,
> dat na mien Verscheel dat Woord "Siedland" nich so
> 'n groot, wied Rebeed
> bedüden deit as dat, wat wi hier "Lowlands" nömen
> doot.
>
> Un nu is mi dat wedder in d'n olen Bregenkassen
> trüggkamen: Ik wöörd'
> "Siedland" up (Hoog-)Düütsch as _(Marsch-)Niederung_
> översetten,
> "Leegland" tomehrst as _Tiefebene_ (as in
> "Nordeuropäische Tiefebene").
>
> Wat meent Ji?
>
> Kumpelmenten,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ***
>
> Lowlanders,
>
> I was just now reminded of Fiete Neumann recently
> saying he was assuming
> I was using the name _Leegland_ in Low Saxon (Low
> German) in a jocular
> manner (since _leeg_ means 'bad', 'inferior'), and I
> responded that I
> was only half joking, that _leeg_ still means 'low
> and flat' in several
> modern dialects, not only 'inferior'.  I also said
> that in my opinion
> the word _Siedland_ does not denote as vast an area
> as the one to which
> we refer as "Lowlands" here.
>
> And now it has just clicked in the old brain: while
> Low Saxon _Siedland_
> is best translated as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ in (High)
> German ('(marshy)
> stretch of low-lying land'), _Leegland_ is often
> best translated as
> _Tiefebene_ ('lowlands', 'plain(s)', as in
> _Nordeuropäische Tiefebene_
> 'North European Lowland/Plains').
>
> What do others think?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Ik mutt woerkli seggen dat ik ni seker boen of wi dat
word "leeg" in Wistedh no bruk hebbt, wul hebb wi
"sied" bruk ("de stool is mi to sied"). Dat magh wul
ween dat dat een ool word is wat vlich min
Groessoellern no bruk hebb, awer voendaaghs heff ik
dat nuems meer hoert, wul begreep ik wat dat beduet.
Foeher haett man ok "duven" bruk so as in "Duvenstedt"
doch dat word ward ok all lang ni meer bruk.

Groeten

Helge

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 16:30:44 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:30:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.093044.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

> From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.13 (04) [E/LS]

> Ik mutt woerkli seggen dat ik ni seker boen of wi dat
> word "leeg" in Wistedh no bruk hebbt, wul hebb wi
> "sied" bruk ("de stool is mi to sied"). Dat magh wul
> ween dat dat een ool word is wat vlich min
> Groessoellern no bruk hebb, awer voendaaghs heff ik
> dat nuems meer hoert, wul begreep ik wat dat beduet.
> Foeher haett man ok "duven" bruk so as in "Duvenstedt"
> doch dat word ward ok all lang ni meer bruk.

[English below]

Düt "duven" (bedüüdt dat "leeg", "neddern", "sied"?) find sik denn wull
ook in de noorddüütschen Plaatsnaams "Duvendiek", "Duvensee",
"Duvennest" un "Duveneck."  Denn glööv' ik ook, dat 't sik in de
nedderlandschen Plaatsnaams (Nedderlannen un Belgien) "Duiven",
"Duiveland", "Duivestraat", "Duivenhoek" un "Duivendans" findt.
(Neddersassisch <uu> = nedderlandsch <ui>)  Stimmt dat?

I looks as if this _duven_ (does also it mean 'low'?) is also contained
in the North German place names "Duvendiek", "Duvensee", "Duvennest" and
"Duveneck."  To go one step farther, I assume that it is also contained
in the Dutch place names (of the Netherlands and Belgium) "Duiven",
"Duiveland", "Duivestraat", "Duivenhoek" and "Duivendans".  (Low Saxon
<uu>/<oe> = Dutch <ui>)  Is this correct?

Grötens/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 17:33:21 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:33:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.103321.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.12 (04) [E]

Dear Ron,

Thank you for the very enlightening description of celtic words used to
describe the english. From my own studeis of the Welsh language, I have
just
realised that 'saesneg' is the welsh adjective meaning 'english,' which
is
quite similar to the other celtic variations, especially the Breton word
,"saozneg," used to describe the English language.

Regards,
David Elsworth.


>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.10 (03) [E]
>
>Dear Ron, Lowlanders
>
>The Scots term for an English person is,"sassensach." I personally feel
>that this must be connected to the Low Saxon word to describe a saxon.
>
>Regards
>David Elsworth.
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Names
>
>David,
>
>Apparently you are right (above).  Scottish Gaelig _Sasunn_ is 'England'
>(originally "Saxon") and _Sasannach_ is 'English' (either adjective or
>nominal 'English person', originally "Saxon").  Note also names like
>Irish _Sacs-Bhéarla_ for 'English language' ("Saxon gobbledigook"),
>_Saxain_ for 'England' and _Saxanach_ for 'English (person)'.  Manx has
>_Sostyn_ for 'England' and _Sostnagh_ for 'English (person)'  Similarly
>Breton has _Bro-Saoz_ 'England' and _saozneg_ 'English (language)'
>(though lately French-based _Bro an Anglizien_ and _anglich_
>respectively have been encroaching).  Of course, this required these
>languages to create new names for "real" 'Saxon' etc., e.g., Irish
>_Saxa_
>
>On the other hand, note that Finnish has _Saksa_ (originally "Saxony")
>for 'Germany' (and _saksalainen_ for 'German', _saksan kieli_ for
>'German language', etc.), similarly Estonian _Saksa_ (_sakslane_ and
>_saksa keel_), obviously because medieval Saxony (today's Northern
>Germany, from which Saxon-speaking Hanseatic traders reached Baltic
>seaports) came to represent the earlier vague entity "Germany."  Again,
>later this required creating new names for "real" 'Saxony', etc., e.g.,
>Finnish _Saksi_ 'Saxony', _saksilainen_ 'Saxon', _saksin kieli_ 'Saxon
>language', similarly Estonian _Saksi_, _saks_, _saksi keel_
>respectively.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

You are welcome, David.

Isn't it interesting and telling that Welsh has the adjective _saesneg_
("Saxon") for 'English' but refers to England by the name _Lloegr_,
assumedly a name for the region east of today's Wales that goes back to
before the Saxon take-over?  So in Welsh the neighboring region seems to
have retained its old name, and _saesneg_ ("Saxon") is used to refer to
the descendants of the invaders that now live there.

Lowlanders,

On a different note, can any of you tell me what the Dutch equivalent of
the Zeelandic (Zeêuws) place name "Kwaèdamme" is?

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 19:32:22 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:32:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.123222.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 14.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (03) [E]

Ron asked:

> Lowlanders,
>
> On a different note, can any of you tell me what the Dutch equivalent of
> the Zeelandic (Zeêuws) place name "Kwaèdamme" is?

Kwaèdamme is Kwadendamme, a small village some 10 km's south of Goes.

Marco

----------

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (02) [E/LS]

But "duiven" is the Dutch word for pigeons or doves - I should say that
at
least some of these place names must refer to birds, then! The same
could be true for the Lower Saxon names, especially "Duvennest" (which I
would take to mean "dove's nest"). Correct me if I'm wrong...

Groetjes,
Gabriele [Kahn]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thanks for the info "Kwaèdamme" = "Kwadendamme", Marco.  I needed it for
a part of a "project" which I will announce shortly.

Hi, Gabriele!  So good to have you back in the fold!  What you said
about _Duven..._ / _Duiven..._ makes a lot of sense to me.  I had also
always thought that they refered to doves or pigeons, but I went with
what Helge Tietz had said earlier today:

> Ik mutt woerkli seggen dat ik ni seker boen of wi dat
> word "leeg" in Wistedh no bruk hebbt, wul hebb wi
> "sied" bruk ("de stool is mi to sied"). Dat magh wul
> ween dat dat een ool word is wat vlich min
> Groessoellern no bruk hebb, awer voendaaghs heff ik
> dat nuems meer hoert, wul begreep ik wat dat beduet.
> Foeher haett man ok "duven" bruk so as in "Duvenstedt"
> doch dat word ward ok all lang ni meer bruk.

He seemed to be implying that _duven_ (as in Duvenstedt) used to mean
the same as _leeg_ and _sied_ 'low'.  It was news to me, and currently I
do not have any dictionaries here to verify it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 23:22:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:22:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.162230.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: "Names" 2002. 06. 13 (04)

'n Oobend, Ron, Leeglanners,

Ron wrote:

>Leeglanners,
>
>Nu wöörd' ik daar jüst an dinken, wo Fiete Neumann nulest schreev', ik
>meen dat mit "Leegland" sachs so 'n lütt beten spaassig, un ik seeg',
>tjer, eerder halv spaassig un halv eernst, dat "leeg" in 'n paar
>neddersassische (nedderdüütsche) Dialekten ook vundagigendaags noch
>"deep un platt" bedüden deit, nich bloots "slecht."  Ik harr ook seggt,
>dat na mien Verscheel dat Woord "Siedland" nich so 'n groot, wied Rebeed
>bedüden deit as dat, wat wi hier "Lowlands" nömen doot.
>
>Un nu is mi dat wedder in d'n olen Bregenkassen trüggkamen: Ik wöörd'
>"Siedland" up (Hoog-)Düütsch as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ översetten,
>"Leegland" tomehrst as _Tiefebene_ (as in "Nordeuropäische Tiefebene").
>
>Wat meent Ji?

Jo, Ron, mi dücht ook, dat is't Nodinken weirt, un' Dien Ansatz dücht mi
mol
weller heel best tau ween.
Offschoonst- dat "liggen" un dat "löögen" sün' recht dicht tohaup, jüst
sou
as in't Ingelte un' Hauchdütsche "liegen" un "lügen". De Dialekten hefft
dat
woll ünnerscheidlich haulen, overs: kein Platt snacken or prooten deiht,
schall't woll jümmers verstohn, wat meint is. Dat allein is woll 'n
Teiken
föör sick.

In uns Lannen  giff't  'n "Sietland", noch'n beeten sieder as de Marsch
ümtau. Schullst Du tau jemme obers "Leeglanners" seggen, schulln's woll
düchtig obstanaatsch waarn. Denn ward dat "leege Hunnen" un' schecht Di!

Jo! Is' sau!

Greutens

Fiete.

Be"lower" English:

Hi, Ron, Lowlanders,

Ron wrote:

>Lowlanders

<I was just now reminded of Fiete Neumann recently saying he was
assuming
>I was using the name _Leegland_ in Low Saxon (Low German) in a jocular
>manner (since _leeg_ means 'bad', 'inferior'), and I responded that I
>was only half joking, that _leeg_ still means 'low and flat' in several
>modern dialects, not only 'inferior'.  I also said that in my opinion
>the word _Siedland_ does not denote as vast an area as the one to which
>we refer as "Lowlands" here.

>And now it has just clicked in the old brain: while Low Saxon _Siedland_
>is best translated as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ in (High) German
('(marshy)stretch of low-lying land'), _Leegland_ is often >best
translated
as
>_Tiefebene_ ('lowlands', 'plain(s)', as in _Nordeuropäische Tiefebene_
>'North European Lowland/Plains').

>What do others think?

Yes, Ron, it seems worth to be thought about, and I guess, You are on
the
right trail again.-
Though- the words (Low S.) "liggen " (liggen) (engl: to lie [on a bed]
and
"löögen" (sorry!) (engl.: to tell a lie) are very tight to each other
(look
in English and Upper German). The diverse regional Low Saxon dialects
developed differently, but: everyone able to talk Low Saxon will be able
too
to understand both of the words, in both meanings. That  seems to speak
for itself.

In our special region we have an area called "Sietland". It is even
lower
(beneath sea-level) than the sorrounding marshlands. But- do never call
them
"Leeglanners"- they will become very upset , and You will at once find
Yourself in a nice fight.

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Fiete:

> Schullst Du tau jemme obers "Leeglanners" seggen, schulln's woll
> düchtig obstanaatsch waarn. Denn ward dat "leege Hunnen" un' schecht Di!

Tjer, Fiete, dat 's man good, dat Du mi dat künnig maakt hest, dat ik mi
bi dé Minschen nich sehn laten or tominnst mank jüm dat Muul nich apen
rieten do.

Kumpelmenten in 't Huus!

Reinhard*/Ron
(* which is unrelated to the river Rhine ("Rhein"), Steve, tempting
though the spelling may be.)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 15 17:13:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:13:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.101323.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Nmes" 2002. 06. 14 (04)

Hi, Marco, Gabriele, Ron,

in order of Ron:

evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (03) [E]

Ron asked:

> Lowlanders,
>
> On a different note, can any of you tell me what the Dutch equivalent of
> the Zeelandic (Zeêuws) place name "Kwaèdamme" is?

Kwaèdamme is Kwadendamme, a small village some 10 km's south of Goes.

Marco

Marco,

could it be a (Upper german) "Querdamm", what we call in Low Saxon a
"Kajedeich" ( a dyke lying tansversally to the coastal line)? Because-
in
Low german we prefer top say "dwars" for "transverse", but still the
word
"dweer" is in use.
Regards
Fiete

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (02) [E/LS]

>But "duiven" is the Dutch word for pigeons or doves - I should say that
>at
>least some of these place names must refer to birds, then! The same
>could be true for the Lower Saxon names, especially "Duvennest" (which I
>would take to mean "dove's nest"). Correct me if I'm wrong...
>
>Groetjes,
>Gabriele [Kahn]

Hi, Gabrielle,
in Northern Germany, perhaps identic with the region of Low Saxon
languages,
I frequently found the word "doov" (Upper German: "taub") (English:
"deaf")
for those parts of a river or even lake which formerly were as well
river as
the nowadays course. But in changing times they became to be just
shallowes
with perhaps water coming in from the one, but never going out to the
other
side. (See below Ron and Helge Tietz)

Special Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]

>GRIN< - it's so good to come back to "Lowlands" after all these years, only
to find that Our Ron is still fighting the good fight to have his name
spelled correctly! :-)

Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
"leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Gabriele:

> >GRIN< - it's so good to come back to "Lowlands" after all these years, > only
> to find that Our Ron is still fighting the good fight to have his name
> spelled correctly! :-)

That's all right, Gabriele.  I'm used to it.  People want to make it
look as German as possible.  Someone I know writes it "Rheinhardt" and
won't stop it, saying it feels more satisfying.  Who am I to deny him
this little pleasure?

> Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
> "leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?

As far as I know, _leeg_ ([lE.IC], which should really be spelled _leyg_
or _leig_) is a cognate of Dutch _laag_, English _low_, etc.  It's
predominant meaning now is 'bad' or 'inferior', can be translated from
German _schlecht_ in most contexts, including "feeling bad," "looking
bad," etc.  In most contexts I would translate 'ugly' (Dutch _lelijk_)
as Low Saxon (Low German) _wanschapen_ ['va.nSQ:pm=].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 03:24:18 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:24:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.202418.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (01) [E]

In reply to Fiete's mail concerning former stretches of river: I
actually
used to "own" one, it was part of my farm in Oregon in what I now think
of
as a previous life. The English term for that is "oxbow lake", or so I
have
learned. Would anyone know why they call it that?

Greetings,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Sachsen780 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]

Hello Reinhard/Ron,

the heat of the Arizona desert causes me these errors in correct
spelling.  I will, for one, allow you to spell your given name
the way you want, every time.  Thanks for the good natured ribbing!

S  T  E  V  E

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Dear Steve,

I am happy to know you are not taking my friendly little "ribbing" the
wrong way.  Be aware that you belong to the majority outside
German-speaking areas who misspell my name.  I take offense at none of
it, just retort with good-natured teasing, even in the case of the
person who *insists* on misspelling my name.  What's in a name anyway?
By the way, I believe that Reinhard (as in Reynard, the sly fox in the
medieval Dutch and Low Saxon story) is Saxon, somewhat related to
English Reginald ... ragin + hart = something like "solid
counsel(lor)/advisor" (not "pure heart" as assumed by most German
speakers).

Steve, your interest and enthusiasm are much appreciated.  Keep cool
down there in the lovely Arizona desert!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 03:27:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:27:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.202723.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (02) [E]

Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>:

>That South East England English and accents in the
>West of the Netherlands are beginning to have this
>l-vocalisation after all vowels is perhaps more
>interesting. However, if there is an influence between
>the two which way is it going? My grandmother used
>l-vocalisations and she was 94 when she died last
>year. There are also still many speakers who fluctuate
>between 'l' and 'w'. Do you know how old this feature
>is in the Netherlands?

At least 100 years, as all my grandparents (born around 1895)
already did it. And I expect it's even much older than that, but I
have no evidence of that.

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:

>This rule applies in many Low Saxon (Low German) dialects as well;
e.g.,
>Melk [mE.jk] ~ [mE.ik] (milk).  In dialects in which the "thick"
(velar)
>allophone of /l/ is retained (see my previous posting) after any
type of
>vowel, especially in the farwestern ranges, the "disharmony" between
>velar /l/ and palatovelar /k/, /g/ or /x/ (> [C]) is overcome by means
>of an epenthetic (inserted, separating) vowel, much like it is done in
>many Dutch dialects; e.g., _Melk_ [mE.L`@k] (milk, sounding like
>"mellek").

True, but then the /l/ usually becomes "thin" again, being between
vowels instead of before a consonant or pause.
I don't know if the epenthesis is really caused or influenced by
velarisation, because it also happens with /r/: "werk" often sounds
as "werrek" [vEr at k], varken (less often) as "varreke". This also
changes the r-sound, it "un-shwa-ises" it, but no velarisation is
involved.

--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 12 June 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 03:32:49 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:32:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.15 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.203249.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymologies"

Hi, Ron, Leeglanners, Lowlanders,

Ron wrote:
>As far as I know, _leeg_ ([lE.IC], which should really be spelled _leyg_
>or _leig_) is a cognate of Dutch _laag_, English _low_, etc.  It's
>predominant meaning now is 'bad' or 'inferior', can be translated from
>German _schlecht_ in most contexts, including "feeling bad," "looking
>bad," etc.  In most contexts I would translate 'ugly' (Dutch _lelijk_)
>as Low Saxon (Low German) _wanschapen_ ['va.nSQ:pm=].
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Of course: what about engl. "lake", upper German "Lache", in our dialekt
"look",  Scots "loch"?

But: "wanschapen" seems to come from the West, from Holland or
East-Friesland, because it is completely unknown in our region, as older
people told me this evening.

I'll never trust in DUDEN No. 7!

Thanks and regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Fiete, mien Fründ,

Wat seggt de (olen) Lüüd' bi Ju denn för düütsch _hässlich_ (ingelsch
_ugly_)?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 18:14:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:14:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.111423.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.15 (04) [E/LS]

> Ron wrote:
>> As far as I know, _leeg_ ([lE.IC], which should really be spelled _leyg_
>> or _leig_) is a cognate of Dutch _laag_, English _low_, etc.  It's
>> predominant meaning now is 'bad' or 'inferior', can be translated from
>> German _schlecht_ in most contexts, including "feeling bad," "looking
>> bad," etc.  In most contexts I would translate 'ugly' (Dutch _lelijk_)
>> as Low Saxon (Low German) _wanschapen_ ['va.nSQ:pm=].
>>
>> Regards,
>> Reinhard/Ron
>
> Of course: what about engl. "lake", upper German "Lache", in our dialekt
> "look",  Scots "loch"?

In Flanders I know a castle that is called 'de lakebossen'(E The woods
by
the lake)
Luc Vanbrabant

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 18:17:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:17:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (02) [D/E/French]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.111714.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.02 (03) [D/E]

> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Could any of you help me translate the following lines from Vanden Vos
> Reynaerde in English or French?

Dear Patricia,
I have made an attempt to tanslate these fragments into French (Excuse
me
for the grammatical faults in advance!)
> Alse ghi wilt, so willic gaen. (12)
Si vous voulez,alors je m'en aille
>
> Lieve neve, ic wille gaen
Cher cousin, je veux aller (me confessioner)
>
> Daer af willic mi in biechten dwaen.
De cela je veux me purifier par la confession
>
> Eer hi doe conste in corten woerden
> Ghespreken: 'Ic wille mi begheven,
Avant de se prononcer en courtes paroles:
Je veux me diriger (entrer dans le couvent)
> Daer dedic Ysingrijn bi mi
> Up dat huus clemmen boven.
> Ic seide, ic wilde hem gheloven,
> Wildi crupen in die valdore,
> Dat hire soude vinden vore
> Van vetten hoenren sijn ghevouch.
> Ter valdore ghinc hi ende louch,
> Ende croep daer in met vare,
> Ende began taste n harenthare.
Labas  je faisais que  Ysengrijn grimpe en haut sur la maison
Je disais -je voulais le promettre- que  qauand il
voulait se glisser dans cette trappe
qu'il trouverait des poules grasses,
plus qu'il n'en pouvait avoir.
Il allait vers la trappe et riait
et se glissait dedans avec prudence
et commençait à tâter ici et là.
> Nu willic prouven, dat ic mach
> Te hove bringhen een baraet,
> Dat ic voer de dagheraet
> In groter zorghen vant te nacht.
Maintenant je veux essayer si je peux
mettre en délibéré
ce que -avant l'aube-j'ai trouvé
pendant la nuit, torturant mon esprit
>
> Waendi dat ic wille nemen
> Eene loghene up mine langhe vaert?
Penses-tu que je veux emporter un mensonge
sur mon long voyage?
>
> Ic peinsde, worde hi ons heere,
> Dat wil alle waren verloren.
Je pensais, s'il devient notre seigneur
Nous allons tous être perdus.
>
> Waendi, dat ic u die Leye
> Wille wijsen in die flume Jordane?
Penseriez-vous que je voulais vous désigner "De Leie"(La Lys)
pour la fleuve "De Jordaan"?
>
> Maerghin, als die zonne up gaet,
> Willic te Roeme om aflaet;
> Van Roeme willic over zee.
Demain, quand le soleil se lève
je veux aller à Rome pour une indulgence
De Rome, je veux aller par la mer.
>
> Hi wille hem betren, ic segghe u hoe:
> Reynaert wille maerghen vroe
> Palster ende scerpe ontfaen
> Ende wille te Roeme gaen,
> Ende van Rome, danen wille hi over zee,
Il veut s'améliorer, je vous dis comment
Reynaert, demain à l'aube, veut
recevoir le bourdon et la bourse
et veut aller à Rome
et de Rome, il veut aller par la mer
> Of God wilt, ghi sult mi gheleeden
> Ende mijn vrient Belin de ram
Si Dieu le veut, vous allez me conduire moi
et mon ami Belin, le bélier.

Groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene (België)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 18:49:58 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:49:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.16 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.114958.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (02) [E]

At 08:24 PM 06/15/02 -0700, Ron wrote:
>What's in a name anyway?
>By the way, I believe that Reinhard (as in Reynard, the sly fox in the
>medieval Dutch and Low Saxon story) is Saxon, somewhat related to
>English Reginald ... ragin + hart = something like "solid
>counsel(lor)/advisor" (not "pure heart" as assumed by most German
>speakers).

Funny, I would have imagined <regin + ald>, with the <ald> the same as
in
<her-ald>, the "old man of the army".  Another source says that it is
"powerful ruler".  My own name, Edwin, is a mystery to me as well.  This
same source says that it means "valuable friend", but other
possibilities
are "friend of wealth", "wealth winner", "friend of the oath", and more.

Ed Alexander
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (01) [E]

Fiete wrote:

> could it be a (Upper german) "Querdamm", what we call in Low Saxon a
> "Kajedeich" ( a dyke lying tansversally to the coastal line)? Because-
> in
> Low german we prefer top say "dwars" for "transverse", but still the
> word
> "dweer" is in use.

The name of this village is quite young; the first time it is
metioned is in 1581. It is a quite litteral name: village was
founded in a polder that was very hard to keep dry because
of a dam across a local water, the Zwake, constantly 'eroded'.
So 'Kwadendamme' refers to a bad, ugly (Dutch _kwaad_)
dam.
Originally there were no 'Querdammen' in Zeeland, so I
don't think that this German word has anything to do with
'Kawèdamme'. The local equivalent of of a 'Querdamm' is
the _pael'oôd_ (litt. 'polehead').
These are rows of wooden poles, strengthened at the bottom
with blocks of basalt to protect the beaches and dunes from
eroding. I think Dutch has _paalhoofd_, but it isn't in the
small Dutch dictionary I have at hand now.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
> Lowlanders,
>
> On a different note, can any of you tell me what the Dutch equivalent of
> the Zeelandic (Zeêuws) place name "Kwaèdamme" is?
dear Ron,
I assume that "kwaèdamme" comes from "kwade dam"
'Kwaad' in general means 'angry',
but there is also another meaning for the word that is not so well
known.
'Kwaad' means also 'klein'
Kwaadieper= little Ieper
Kwaadmechelen= little Mechelen
Kwade straat= Little street, so...
Kwaèdam= little dam

Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]

> Ron wrote:

>> Lowlanders

> <I was just now reminded of Fiete Neumann recently saying he was
> assuming
>> I was using the name _Leegland_ in Low Saxon (Low German) in a jocular
>> manner (since _leeg_ means 'bad', 'inferior'), and I responded that I
>> was only half joking, that _leeg_ still means 'low and flat' in several
>> modern dialects, not only 'inferior'.  I also said that in my opinion
>> the word _Siedland_ does not denote as vast an area as the one to which
>> we refer as "Lowlands" here.
>
>> And now it has just clicked in the old brain: while Low Saxon _Siedland_

Kan Siedland niet komen van zuidland (E Southland) op kaarten altijd
onderaan te zien (laagst)?
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Low Saxon (Low German) also has _kwade_ ~ _quade_ ~ _kwaad(')_ ~
_quaad(')_ 'fierce', 'angry', 'bad', etc.  However, this appears to be
yet another word that is either confined to or solely survives in the
farwestern dialects.  (It was used more extensively in Middle Low
Saxon.)

As far as I know, German _quer_ 'crosswise', 'across', 'diagonal(ly)',
has the Low Saxon cognate _dwars_ [dva:s], where the _-s_ is an
adverbial suffix, and in some dialects also _dweer_ [dve:3`].  German
/kv-/ _qu-_ tends to come from /tv-/ _tw-_ (older _twerch_ for _quer_)
which in some cases developed into /tsv-/ _zw-_ as in _Zwerchfell_
("cross(wise) membrane") 'diaphragm'.  (Note also West Slavic loans such
as *_tvar(e)k_ > _Twark_ > _Quark_ denoting a type of creamcheese.)  Cf.
German _zwingen_ = LS _dwingen_ [dvI.N:] 'to force', G _Zwerg_ = LS
_Dwarg_ [dva:x] 'dwarf', G _Quatsch_ 'nonsense' ~ LS _dwatsch_ [dvatS] ~
[dvatsk] 'silly'.

Luc asked:

> Kan Siedland niet komen van zuidland (E Southland) op kaarten altijd
> onderaan te zien (laagst)?

I don't think so.  Dutch _zuid_ is _süüd_ [zy:t] in LS.  As far as I
know, LS _ie_ (/ii/) and Dutch _ui_ (< old /uu/) never correspond, but
LS _ie_ and D _ij_ (< old /ii/) do.

LS _sied_ [zi:t] (< *siegd_?, cf. German _seicht_) means 'shallow' and
'low-lying', 'sunken', and I am rather inclined to assume it is related
to Modern Dutch _zijgen_ 'to strain', 'to filter', literary (and older?)
'to sink' (< *_ziig_?).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 03:08:58 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:08:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (04) [D/E/French]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.200858.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Patricia Beving <beving.patricia at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (02) [D/E/French]

Dear Luc,

Merci BEAUCOUP de votre aide. Dank je voor je help. (My Dutch is
probably
much worse than your French, er zijn heel weinig fouten in je vertaling/
il
y a très peu d'erreurs dans cette traduction). I wondered if in some
occurrences "willen" could not be translated by the future instead of
"vouloir"? I also wondered if there was still any current dialect closer
to
Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch? I didn't know about the Dutch origin
of
Renart (Reynaert) either. I thought it was French. Never mind, anyway,
That
which we call a fox, by any other name...

Cordialement/groetjes

Patricia Henelle-Beving (Versailles, France)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Patricia,

I am not sure anybody is really knows how far back the story of the
naughty fox goes.  There is also a Middle Low Saxon (Low German)
version, from the time at which the international Low-Saxon-speaking
Hanseatic Trading League was at the pinnacle of its power.  The oldest
surviving edition I am aware of is _Reynke de vos_, printed in Lübeck
(*the* Hanseatic center) in 1498.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 03:18:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:18:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.16 (05) [E/F]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.201830.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:
> >As far as I know, _leeg_ ([lE.IC], which should really be spelled _leyg_
> >or _leig_) is a cognate of Dutch _laag_, English _low_, etc.  It's
> >predominant meaning now is 'bad' or 'inferior', can be translated from
> >German _schlecht_ in most contexts, including "feeling bad," "looking
> >bad," etc.  In most contexts I would translate 'ugly' (Dutch _lelijk_)
> >as Low Saxon (Low German) _wanschapen_ ['va.nSQ:pm=].
> >
> >Regards,
> >Reinhard/Ron

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]

Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
"leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

--------------------

Yn reaksje hjirop: Der is wer gjin _etymologyske_ rilllaasje tusken
_leeg_ en Nl _lelijk_. Dit le^ste is nammentlik o^flaat fan _leed +
lijk_
(ferlykje : kwalijk < kwaad + lijk), we^r't _leed_ stiet foar "min".
Ek Aldfrysk le^th + li^k, dat laat hat ta "lilk" yn it Westerlauwersk
Frysk,
mar dit betsjut "angry". "ugly" soe ik oersette as "u^nsjuch", bygelyks,
en
dit wurd hat paralellen yn Nedersaksyske dialekten (onzuug, of soks).

Yn ferba^n mei _kwaad_: Westerl. F. hat ek _kwea_, as haadwurd (nomen):
"evil" (it kwea) en as eigenskipswurd (adjektyf), ek yn 'e spesjale
betsjutting
"out"=bu^ten de linen by it keatsen..

Samar wer wat opmerkingen..
Groetnis allegearre!

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

Henno wrote above:

> Yn reaksje hjirop: Der is wer gjin _etymologyske_ rilllaasje tusken
> _leeg_ en Nl _lelijk_. Dit le^ste is nammentlik o^flaat fan _leed +
> lijk_ (ferlykje : kwalijk < kwaad + lijk), we^r't _leed_ stiet foar
> "min".

So that would be *_leedlig_ (leed+lig "suffer+like") in Low Saxon (Low
German) if it existed, which apparently it doesn't.  German has
_leidlich_, which, however, means something quite different from 'ugly':
'tolerable', '(barely) acceptable'.

As for Low Saxon (Low German) _Siedland_ or _Leegland_ for 'Lowland(s)',
as discussed under "Names," perhaps a look at our northernmost and most
conservative Germanic cousin (Modern) Icelandic will help.

síður [si:Dyr], síð [si:D], sítt [si:(h)t] (< *síðt) 'long', 'low
   (down)'

síga [si:Ga], síg [si:G], seig [sei:G], sigum ['sI:GYm], siginn
   ['sIi:jIn] 'to fall', 'to sink', 'to drain'

sigtibrauð ['sIx.tIbr9y:D] ("sieved/strained bread") 'bread made from
   strained/sieved rye and wheat'

síki ['si:k(j)(h)I] 'streamlet', 'rill flowing through marshy ground'

Cf. Danish _sid_ 'low(-lying)', Low Saxon _sied_ 'low(-lying)',
   _Siedland_ 'low-lying marshland', Dutch _zijgen_ 'to strain',
   'to filter', lit./arch. 'to sink', Scots _side_ 'hanging down (low)',
   _sythe_ ~ _sye_ 'to strain', 'to filter', _syke_ ~ _sike_ 'small
   stream in a hollow', German _sickern_ 'to seep', 'to drain',
   _seicht_ 'shallow' (< 'swampy', 'wet', cf. Old English _sîhte_;
   Middle (High) German _sîht(e)_ 'shallow part in water'),
   _seihen_ (< _sîhan, Old English _sîon_, Old Norse _sía_) 'flow
   out', ~ arch. _seigen_ (Middle German _sîgen_, Old English _sîgan_
   'to drip').

lágur ['lau:(G)Yr], lág [lau:(G)] 'low(-lying)'

lág [lau:(G)] 'hollow', 'depression'

láglendi ['lau:(G)lEndI] 'lowland(s)'

neðan ['nE:Dan] '(from) below'

neðar ['nE:Dar] 'farther down'

undir ['YndIr] 'under', 'below'

undirlendi ['YndIrlEndI] 'lowland(s)', as in Suðurlandsundirlendi
   ['sY:DYrlans,YndIrlEndI] ("south-land's-under-lands/region") denoting
   the lowlands in the south of Iceland

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 15:23:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (R. F. Hahn)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:23:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (01) [E/Z]
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (04) [D/E/French]

Patricia Beving asked

> I also wondered if there was still any current dialect closer
> to
> Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?

The writer of Reynaert, an anonymous writer
who names himslef 'Willem die Madoc maecte'
('William who wrote Madoc'), wrote in the
dialect of Eastern Flanders that in that time
wasn't influenced by Brabantish yet.
Nowadays, Eastern Flemish is a Franconian
dialect, while before say the 15th century it was
Fris-Franconian. In fact, there where not much
differences then between the dialects of eastern
and western Flanders.
Since Western Flemish has kept most of  the
original Friso-Franconian features that you see
in Reynaert, I believe that this dialect is by far
the closest you can get to the original.
I'd even say that the most 'archaic' form of
Western Flemish is even to be found in your
own country, Patricia. In French Flanders (the
western part of the Nord-departement) the
older people still speak a dialect of Western-
Flemish that has de facto been isolated from
the rest of the Western Flemish or Dutch
speaking community since the 17th century.

Something else: I know of quite a few
translations of Reynaert in Dutch and Flemish
regional languages (Gronings, Limburgish,
Brabantish, Drents, Frysk...). Of course, the
Zeelandic translation is one of the best ;-)
I was wondering if Reynaert is translated in
so many dialects and regional languags outside
The Netherlands and Belgium as well. And if so:
why Reynaert?

A few lines from the Zeelandic translation
by Jan Kousemaker ("'t Beêste-verael van den
Vos Reinaerd uut den Middeleêuwsen tekst
beriemd verzeêuwst", Middelburg 1981):

Belien voe Nobel

't Joengen! Wat zetten dien Ram d'r de sokken in!
'n Boschap voe den Konienk, dat was nae z'n zin.
't Was laete in de mirreg dat den Ram
an 't 'of bie Konienk Nobel kwam.
Toe die d'n zag (Belien daenig uut z'n sas)
mie de maele die uut Bruun z'n pels esneeë was,
riep n: 'Gostermanne! Ram Belien!
Is t'r soms wat mis, messchien?
Waer is Rein, Wat mot je mie z'n tasse?
Mo jie soms op den inoud passe?"
"As je mien, o Vorst, dat uut wil laete leie
dan za ik joe 's wat bezonders zeie:
Rein vroeg of ik voe den Konienk ok een brief
mee wou neme. Ik dee niks zò lief!"

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 15:26:00 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (R. F. Hahn)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:26:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.17 (02) [D/E]
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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.16 (05) [E/F]

20:18 16-6-2002 -0700 Gabriele Kahn <globalmoose at t-online.de>
(Global Moose Translations)
>Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
>"leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?

Henno Brandsma <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>:

>Yn reaksje hjirop: Der is wer gjin _etymologyske_ rilllaasje tusken
>_leeg_ en Nl _lelijk_. Dit le^ste is nammentlik o^flaat fan _leed +
>lijk_
>(ferlykje : kwalijk < kwaad + lijk), we^r't _leed_ stiet foar "min".

Dat kan ik bevestigen. Het WNT verbindt lelijk (in oudere spelling
leelijk) met "leed", en "leeg" met "lid":
===
LEELIJK, bnw. en bijw. Mnl. lee(t)lijc; ofri. lêthlic, nfri. lilk;
os. lêthlîk, mnd. ledelik, lelik, nnd. lelik, lelk; ohd. leidlîh,
mhd. leitlich; ags. ládlíc. Van Leed (I). In het algemeen beteekent
leelijk dus: leed veroorzakende, onaangenaam.
===
LEDIG — LEEG —, bnw. Mnl. ledich; ofri. lethoch, nfri. liddich; mnd.
ledich, nnd. leddig; mhd. ledic, nhd. ledig; meng. lethi; on.
lidugr. De oorsprong is niet met zekerheid bekend; niet
onwaarschijnlijk is samenhang met Lid (I). De bet. zou dan
oorspronkelijk zijn: de beschikking hebbende over zijne leden, en
vandaar: vrij, onbelemmerd, waaruit de latere toepassingen zijn
voortgekomen.
===

Vergelijk ook de uitdrukking "ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen",
waarin "ledigheid" = werkeloosheid, initiatiefloosheid, de toestand
van niets te doen hebben. Het WNT hierover:

===
— In verschillend verband wordt ledigheid als de oorzaak van kwaad
genoemd, o. a. in zegswijzen waarvan Ledigheid is des duivels
oorkussen de meest bekende is, de oorsprong van deze opvatting zal
wel te zoeken zijn in Jes. Sirach 33, 27: Drijft hem tot het werck,
op dat hy niet ledigh en ga: want de ledigheyt leert veel quaets.
===

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:
>So that would be *_leedlig_ (leed+lig "suffer+like") in Low Saxon (Low
>German) if it existed, which apparently it doesn't.  German has
>_leidlich_, which, however, means something quite different from
'ugly':
>'tolerable', '(barely) acceptable'.

That's "lijdelijk" in Dutch, as in the expression "lijdelijk verzet
bieden" = non-violent, just non-cooperative. WNT:

===
LIJDELIJK, bnw. en bijw. Mnl. lidelijc; mnd. lîdelik; mhd. lîdelich,
nhd. leidlich. Van Lijden (I). De toepassingen waarin het woord
gebezigd wordt, laten zich ten deele door het gebruik van 't ww.
lijden, ten deele door dat van 't achtervoegsel -lijk verklaren.
A) Bnw. — 1) In actieve toepassing. De eigenschap bezittende van te
verdragen, te dulden, t. w. in dien zin dat men niet bezwijkt onder,
of zich niet verzet tegen hetgeen men ondervindt; geduldig.
===
--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 12 June 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 16:38:44 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:38:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.093844.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Hermann Havekost at the University of Oldenburg (Germany) has posted a
copy of the 1498 Middle Low Saxon (Low German) version of _Reynke de
vos_ with facsimile and transliteration and even some sound files (!
which unfortunately are not working for me) here:
http://www.bis.uni-oldenburg.de/~havekost/needer/rey0-1.htm

At the same site there is also a link to the Middle Dutch version
(_Vanden vos reynarde_ = _Van den vos reynaerde_?), also a link to
Goethe's ("High") German translation (_Reineke Fuchs_), both of which
open in a side window.

>From which year is the earliest Dutch version?  There is a copy of it
here:
http://www.hum.uva.nl/dsp/ljc/reinaert/
Another copy here: http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_vos001vosr01/
There is also a copy of Willem van Hildegaersberch's "Dit is van Reyer
die vos", "Van Reynaert ende van Aven" and "Van Reynaert ende van Aven,"
but unfortunately no years seem to be given.  What about the French
edition?

Note also the Société Internationale Renardienne | International Reynard
Society: http://www.hull.ac.uk/Hull/FR_Web/fox.html

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:09:43 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:09:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.17 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.160943.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Hi Patricia, hi all

Patricia:
<<<I also wondered if there was still any current
dialect closer to Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?

Just my humble opinion, worth +/- 2 eurocent:
I think it's just impossible to quantify that for
several reasons:
1. I sometimes have the impression that in the history
of Dutch (or any language) the nowadays so called
Standard Dutch (or standard variant) is considered to
be the only result of that evolution that needs or
that is worth to be accounted for. I have probs with
that idea.

2. "Middle Dutch" as a (one) language doesn't exist:
it's a cover term for several variants, ranging from
(let's call it) West Flemish over Brabantian, Hollands
to Limburgian.
I wonder how it would be possible to compare the
various Middle Dutch'es with the Modern Standard
Variant and with the various dialects of these days. I
mean, there is a danger of making "cross
references"... AAAAARGH... This is not very clear, i'm
sorry.
I mean, there is no fixed point of reference what
Middle Dutch is concerned, no Middle Dutch ANS, no
Middle Dutch "Groene Boekje" and no Middle Dutch Van
Daele :).

3. Obviously all dialects evolved, but in quite
different ways. But modern West-Flemish retained
features of the WF Middle Dutch variant (no
dipthongization of certain long vowels in certain
conditions), but changed other features. While Modern
Brabantian dialects (in Flanders) still use the Middle
Dutch "gij". Other aspects evolved in another way.
Every variant retains and changes different
aspect/features of a previous stage...
I mean, how would it be possible to decide which
dialect/variant is closer to *the* Middle Dutch (which
doesn't exist in the first place) than any other
dialect/variant?

Best regards,

Frank Verhoft

=====
"De perto ninguém é normal!" - Caetano Veloso

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Frank,

Take out the moaning and groaning ;) , and tidy it up a bit here and
there, _et voilà_ you have a nice little "sub-blurb" for our budding
collection.  (Hint, hint!)  Yes, opinion piece are invited.

More about this project in a few days.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:11:44 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:11:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.161144.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Patricia:
<<<I didn't know about the Dutch origin of Renart
(Reynaert) either. I thought it was French.<<<

Ron:
<<<I am not sure anybody is really knows how far back
the story of the naughty fox goes.<<<

IMHO, this is the only possible answer to the question
of the origins of the Reynaert-stories. I doubt
whether it can be pertinent to state that it is a
story originated in this or that region. "Van den Vos
Reynaerde", edited by Lulofs and published by
Wolters-Noordhoff gives an excelent introduction on
the origins of the Reynaert-cycle, and all the
questions this search yields, the mixture of origins,
motives, genres...
Lulofs mentions (a.o.) three  of the earliest texts
that have surived the centuries:
* 1050, Ecbasis captivi, a "cento" about a sick
lion-king, a devious wolf whose castle is sieged by a
clever/smart fox and his troups. Probably written in
Lotharingen.
* 1150, Ysengrimus: Latin text, 6574 verses, probably
written in Gent, and it already contained the irony
and critique on religious and wordly leaders. The
animals are given names that mainly have Germanic
origins (though latinized): Ysengrimus and Reinardus
show up.
Some elements seem refer to the Aesopean tradition,
other elements to Arabic influence, and still others
are believed to be, erm, "Germanic", or rather quite
local.
* 1175, Le Roman de Renard, first Reynaert-collection
not written in Latin: Pierre de Saint-Cloud
* end 12th C, Heinrich der Glichezare, Reinhart Fuchs
(Middle High German), partly containing similar
branches as Le Roman de Renard, partically consisting
of other material.
Seems that in the region (modern days) North
France-Flanders-Germany the Reynaert stories were very
well known and popular round that time. Without
jumping to conclusions, Lulofs states that these
regions were inhabited by Franks, who were romanised
in N-France. He clearly gives sources and other
references, ranging from the Aisopos, Arabic sources,
the bible, Germanic folk tales, bestiaria... you name
it...

Best regards,

Frank Verhoft

=====
"De perto ninguém é normal!" - Caetano Veloso

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:15:42 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:15:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.17 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.161542.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Lowlanders,

Below a request I received.  If you respond, please do so directly and
privately to the person who wrote it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: Dawn M Brancati <dmb73 at columbia.edu>
Subject:

Hi,

I was given your name and e-mail address by Ethnologue as the
source of their language  data for Belgium. I hope you can be of
assistance to me.

I am political scientist at Columbia University in New York, USA. I am
currently constructing a cross-national dataset, which includes among
other things, the ethno-linguistic composition of countries at the
sub-national (regional level). I currently have 19 countries in my
dataset
and would like to include Belgium among these countries. The dataset
will
eventually be made public for use by other researchers. To include
Belgium
among these other countries, I need to know the number (and percent) of
native speakers of French, Dutch, German as well as of any other
langauages, in the different regions/provinces of Belgium. I need this
information  for every year that it is available since at least 1975.
Could you please assist me in locating this information for Belgium? I
have tried many other attempts to locate this information
throught the government and national statistics institute, unfortunately
to no avail.

Thank you very much.

Regards,
Dawn Brancati

*************************************
Columbia University
Political Science Department
420 W. 118th Street, 7th Flr.
New York, NY 10027
E-Mail: dmb73 at columbia.edu

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:17:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:17:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.161716.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Patricia Beving <beving.patricia at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (03) [E]

Thank you for the sites addresses.
Apparently the first branches of  "Le roman de Renart"- that gave its
name
to the French fox (le renard) until then called "Goupil"- date back from
the second half of the 12th century and are supposed to have been
written
by Pierre de Saint Cloud. Further branches developed in the 13th
century.The origins of "Le roman de Renart" are obscure, and seem to be
rooted in folk animal tales.
Best
Patricia

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:22:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:22:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.17 (08) [LS]
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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L 2002-06-15 (04)

'n Oobend, Ron, Leeglanners,

 Ron wrote:

>Wat seggt de (olen) Lüüd' bi Ju denn för düütsch _hässlich_ (ingelsch
>_ugly_)?

Heel stuur, Ron. Kein eein kann't opstünns verkloorn'!

Mi dücht, dat is vör  Tieden all' verloorn gungen.

Mi full toeirst "öddelig" or "oddelig" in, blauts: dat waard faaken un'
meirstentieds bruukt  as (Upper German: "stinkender Abfall")
"Oeddelgrooben", hauchdüütsch "Abwassergraben", is ook "hässlich",
oobers
nich in 't sülbich  Sinn. Waard ook seggt: "de Keirl sei heel öddelig
uut;
'n öddeligen Keirl wöör dat", oobers: is ne einfach "hässlich".

Van' Oobend heff ick mien "Mentor" ( is bit tau sien  20. Leevjoohr
plattdüütsch tertoogen) froogt; hei wüss't ook ne.

Mi dücht, dat waard hier mit mennigdeel annere Wöörd ümschreeben.

An'n Innen schallst Du woll weller Recht behaulen mit Dien
"wanschap(p)en"
("Verwandtschaft", "relatives"); gifft joo ook in't Hauchdüütsche de
"pucklige Verwandtschaft". "GRINS"!

Wünsch Di wat- ick mutt woll einen uutdoohn!

Besten Oobend

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Fiete,

Amenn seggt de Lüüd' so wat as "(gaar)nich schöön", "(gaar)nich smuck"
or "Dat/De süht gresig uut"?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 03:39:36 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:39:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.17 (09) [D/E/F]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.203936.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.17 (02) [D/E]

>From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.16 (05) [E/F]
>
>20:18 16-6-2002 -0700 Gabriele Kahn <globalmoose at t-online.de>
>(Global Moose Translations)
>>Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
>>"leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?
>
>Henno Brandsma <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>:
>
>>Yn reaksje hjirop: Der is wer gjin _etymologyske_ rilllaasje tusken
>>_leeg_ en Nl _lelijk_. Dit le^ste is nammentlik o^flaat fan _leed +
>>lijk_
>>(ferlykje : kwalijk < kwaad + lijk), we^r't _leed_ stiet foar "min".
>
>Dat kan ik bevestigen. Het WNT verbindt lelijk (in oudere spelling
>leelijk) met "leed", en "leeg" met "lid":
....
>Vergelijk ook de uitdrukking "ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen",
>waarin "ledigheid" = werkeloosheid, initiatiefloosheid, de toestand
>van niets te doen hebben. Het WNT hierover:

Hello all !

This meaning of "ledigheid" seems to be related to Eastern Friesland Low
Saxon "laierghkaid" (lazyness).
"la:j" = lazy; "laiwams" = lazybone; "lailensen" = to be lazy, to hang
around doing nothing.
For bad or ugly we have several expressions due to context or special
meaning: kwód, o:lk, ma:l, lelk etc.
Out of these the word "lelk" (insolent, cheeky, malicious, quarrelsome
etc.)
might be of special interest exploring it's possible relationship to
words
like "le:gh" or the above mentioned "lelijk".

Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 14:22:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:22:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.18 (01) [E]
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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.17 (08) [LS]

Hi Ron and Fiete,

where I come from (the Solling region of South Lower Saxony), the word
"gräsig" for "ugly" - corresponding to Ron's last suggestion - has been
taken over into the local flavor of High German. I see a definite
connecting with English "greasy" there...

Cheers,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.17 (08) [LS]

Er, a definite connection, that is... ;-)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 14:28:22 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:28:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.18 (02) [E]
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (03) [E]

Ron asked:

> From which year is the earliest Dutch version?

There are in fact two 'Dutch' (Flemish) versions of
Reinaert. The oldest is 'Van den Vos Reinaerde', which
dates back before a Latin translation by Balduinus
Iuvenis from 1271. There are five known manuscripts
of the Dutch/Flemish version of the fox-tale, the oldest
 three of them are not complete, the other two are younger
and known as the 'Dyckse handschrift' and 'Coburgse
handschrift'. No one knows the exact year this Reinaert
was written, but it must have been after the 12th century
Isengrinus (a tale in Latin from Ghent about a fox and a
wolf) and before the Latin translation from 1271.
'Van den vos Reinaerde' is in fact based on a story from
'Le Plaid', one of the branches of the French story-collection
known as 'Roman de Renart', but it is certainly not a trans-
lation of this story. The second half of the Flemish/Dutch
Reinaert is completely new and the characters are far more
outspoken than in the French story.

The younger Reinaert is the 14th century 'Reinaerts Historie',
that is almost twice as long as the original 'Van den Vos
Reinaerde' and is very moralizing. It isn't half as good as
'Van den Vos Reinaerde', in which Reinaert is a bit like a rebel
without a cause. In 'Reinaerts Historie', the fox is not
ridiculing the powerful, but he wants to be one of
them himself.

The Middle Low Saxon version from 1498 (Oldenburg)
that Ron mentioned ('Reinke de Vos') is a translation of a
late 15the century Dutch version by Heinric van Alcmaer.

The Ron mentioned Willem van Hildegaersberch. He was a
14th century 'sprokespreker', someone who performed as a
poet and a singer for, amongst others, the counts of Holland
(The Hague) and Zeeland (Middelburg). He wrote e few epic
poems based on the story of Reinaert. He probably died in
1408 and was very productive between 1383 and 1403, so his
Reinaert-poems are probably from that period.

A good starting point for more about all these translations
and authors is the 'Digitale Bibliotheek voor de Nederlandse
Letteren', www.dbnl.nl

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Thanks for the information (above), Marco.

> The Middle Low Saxon version from 1498 (Oldenburg)
> that Ron mentioned ('Reinke de Vos') is a translation of a
> late 15the century Dutch version by Heinric van Alcmaer.

I thought it was from Lübeck (then Lubece, apparently a West Slavic
name) rather than from Oldenburg.

Perhaps you got confused because the website I listed was at the
University of Oldenburg.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 14:56:49 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:56:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.075649.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.17 (09) [D/E/F]

Ik schreef:
>>Vergelijk ook de uitdrukking "ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen",
>>waarin "ledigheid" = werkeloosheid, initiatiefloosheid, de toestand
>>van niets te doen hebben. Het WNT hierover:

20:39 17-6-2002 -0700, Lowlands-L:
>This meaning of "ledigheid" seems to be related to Eastern
Friesland Low
>Saxon "laierghkaid" (lazyness).
>"la:j" = lazy; "laiwams" = lazybone;

Ook in het Nederlands: "lui" en "luiwammes". Volgens het WNT is de
herkomst onzeker. Wel wordt de uitdrukking genoemd (die ik zelf niet
ken): "lui en ledig".

--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 12 June 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

For the dialects of the Eastern Friesland and Oldenburg area, 'lazy' is
listed as _leu_ ~ _loi_ ([lQ:j] ~ [lo:j]?) and _lei_ (= Holder Weigelt's
"la:j"), and there is _Leuwams_ and _Leiwams_ for 'lazy person' (_Wams_
being 'belly' I surmise).

I wonder if _Leuwagen_ is related to the above.  We use it also
elsewhere, not only in Low Saxon (Low German) but also in various North
German dialects.  It denotes a scrubber, i.e., a scrubbing brush with a
long handle (i.e., a scrubbing brush [= "waggon") for the lazy, those
who don't want to scrub the floor kneeling?).

In other Low Saxon dialects, 'lazy' is _fuul_ [fu:l] ("foul") or, in a
somewhat less negative way, _lösig_ ['l9:zIC] (also 'tired',
'exhausted', 'weakened').  A lazy person can be called _Fuuljack_
['fu:ljak] (< _Jack_ 'jacket'), _Fuulwams_ ['fu:lva.ms] (< _Wams_
'belly'), or _Fuulpuup_ ['fu:lpu:p] (< _Puup_ 'fart').  'To be lazy' can
be rendered as _rümfulen_ ['rY.mfu:ln] ("to laze about"), _rümstahn_
['rY.mstQ:n] ("to stand around"), _rümdammeln_ ['rY.mda.ml=n] ("to hang
around idly"), _rümgammeln_ ['rY.mga.ml=n] ("to age/loiter about" <
Scandinavian _gammel_ 'old_), and _leddiglopen_ ['lEdICloUpm=] ("to run
idle/idly"), among several others.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 23:21:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:21:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.06.18 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.162129.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Yogi Reppmann <Info at moin-moin.com>
Subject: Conference Event - Press Release

Dear Friends,

Please support, through your publications, the
upcoming Turner Conference schedule for this
November - Workshops in:German-American Contributions to Physical
Education 1852-2002, US-Low German
"Platt" language, Genealogy, Alternative Energies, Baltic Sea
Cooperation,Expanding the Turner Project in the 21st
Century. The kick-off meeting some weeks ago was promising.

Attached, and at the end of this mail, you will find a formatted copy of
our official press release to give you some more
information.  If you are interested in receiving more photos or an
article about Theodor Guelich, co-founder of the first
Turnverein, please contact me.

Thank you for your support,
Yogi Reppmann, President - American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Soc.

150 Years of 'Turnverein' in Davenport, Iowa

Nov. 1-3, 2002 Conference with Workshops in:
German-American Contributions to Physical Education 1852-2002, US-Low
German
"Platt" language, Genealogy, Alternative Energies, Baltic Sea
Cooperation,
Expanding the Turner Project in the 21st Century

The Institute for Low German in America will host a conference
celebrating the German-American contributions to
physical education in the United States for the years 1852-2002 at a
meeting at the Radisson Hotel in Davenport, Iowa,
on Nov. 1-3, 2002.

The main focus of the conference will be the Turner Societies, who were
leaders in the effort to make  physical
education a standard part of public school curricula in the United
States in the late nineteenth century. Besides their
athletic interests the Turners promoted the development of public parks
and playgrounds and supported legislation to
improve conditions for working people. At the height of the Turner
movement in the 1890s there were more than 300
gymnastic societies in 150 cities around the US with over 40,000
members. Turner halls had served as community
centers, providing assembly space for neighborhood groups, music and
theater societies, unions and political groups,
and for new German immigrants to learn American ways but also to speak
German and teach it to their children.

This conference will be of special interest to American and German
historians, genealogists, Platt speakers, and those
who would like to learn more about the fascinating but forgotten
heritage of their German-American forefathers. During
this weekend, German genealogists will be available to US family
researchers to read old German script and find new
resources.

A program of workshops, slide shows, lessons, traditional German cooking
instruction, folk dancing, theatre and music
performances, and singing will provide an enjoyable and educational
experience. Similar gatherings have forged great
bonds linking the Old World with the New, and had their beginning with
the Low German ("Platt") conference of the
American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society in Iowa in 1995.

City Mayor of Davenport, Charles Brooke, expects over 400 participants
from around the country and Germany:
"Besides informative slide show presentations, workshops with visiting
German specialists, Low German/English choir
music, theatre performances, and classes on granny's favorite recipes,
the gathering will also have an Oktoberfest
atmosphere."

In cooperation with: American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society; the
Schuetzen Park Gilde, Davenport; German
American Heritage Center; Society for German American Studies; German
American National Congress; Hausbarn
Project, Manning, IA; German Consul General, Chicago; City of Davenport.

For further information, contact:
Institute for Low German in America, Dr. Joachim Reppmann, Professor of
German
  715 Orchard Pl.   Northfield, MN 55057
  fax: 011-49-461-582458   yogi at moin-moin.com
http://www.moin-moin.com        or

Mayor Charles W. Brooke, City Hall,
  226 West Fourth Street   Davenport, IA 52801
  (563) 326-7711   fax: (563) 328-6726   cwb at ci.davenport.ia.us

--

Moin-Moin!
Greetings!

Yogi Reppmann, President
American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Soc.


Flensburg
--------------------------------
Joachim Reppmann
Moltkestraße 6
24937 Flensburg
Germany

Tel.: [01149] (0) 461 - 5700078
      [01149] (0) 173 - 4402194
Fax: [01149] (0) 461 - 5002779

info at moin-moin.com
YogiReppmann at yahoo.com
www.moin-moin.com

Northfield:
--------------------------------
Joachim Reppmann
715 Orchard Place
Northfield, Mn 55057
USA

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 23:16:07 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:16:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.161607.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (03) [D/E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> For the dialects of the Eastern Friesland and Oldenburg area, 'lazy' is
> listed as _leu_ ~ _loi_ ([lQ:j] ~ [lo:j]?) and _lei_ (= Holder Weigelt's
> "la:j"), and there is _Leuwams_ and _Leiwams_ for 'lazy person' (_Wams_
> being 'belly' I surmise).
>
> I wonder if _Leuwagen_ is related to the above.  We use it also
Dutch: luiwagen
> elsewhere, not only in Low Saxon (Low German) but also in various North
> German dialects.  It denotes a scrubber, i.e., a scrubbing brush with a
> long handle (i.e., a scrubbing brush [= "waggon") for the lazy, those
> who don't want to scrub the floor kneeling?).
>
> In other Low Saxon dialects, 'lazy' is _fuul_ [fu:l] ("foul") or, in a
> somewhat less negative way, _lösig_ ['l9:zIC] (also 'tired',
> 'exhausted', 'weakened').  A lazy person can be called _Fuuljack_
> ['fu:ljak] (< _Jack_ 'jacket'), _Fuulwams_ ['fu:lva.ms] (< _Wams_
Dutch: luiwammes
> 'belly'), or _Fuulpuup_ ['fu:lpu:p] (< _Puup_ 'fart').  'To be lazy' can
> be rendered as _rümfulen_ ['rY.mfu:ln] ("to laze about"), _rümstahn_
> ['rY.mstQ:n] ("to stand around"), _rümdammeln_ ['rY.mda.ml=n] ("to hang
Flemish: rondwareren, (rond)dremmelen
> around idly"), _rümgammeln_ ['rY.mga.ml=n] ("to age/loiter about" <
> Scandinavian _gammel_ 'old_), and _leddiglopen_ ['lEdICloUpm=] ("to run
> idle/idly"), among several others.

>>From Flanders:
Leegaard= luiaard (E=lazy person)
leegelooielente= E: extremely slow and languid
looi = lui (looi zijn) (E lazy)
ijdelen= ledigen = ielen = legen (E/ to empty)
Je mag nooit met ijdele handen over het erf lopen (E: There is alwaeys
something you can do.

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 22:39:42 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:39:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.18 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.153942.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (01) [E/Z]

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (04) [D/E/French]
>
> Patricia Beving asked
>
>> I also wondered if there was still any current dialect closer
>> to
>> Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?
>
> The writer of Reynaert, an anonymous writer
> who names himslef 'Willem die Madoc maecte'
> ('William who wrote Madoc'), wrote in the
> dialect of Eastern Flanders that in that time
> wasn't influenced by Brabantish yet.
> Nowadays, Eastern Flemish is a Franconian
> dialect, while before say the 15th century it was
> Fris-Franconian. In fact, there where not much
> differences then between the dialects of eastern
> and western Flanders.
And there are still not so much differences between the two.We
understand
each other perfectually
> Since Western Flemish has kept most of  the
> original Friso-Franconian features that you see
> in Reynaert, I believe that this dialect is by far
> the closest you can get to the original
I agree, because I can still read it now.
> I'd even say that the most 'archaic' form of
> Western Flemish is even to be found in your
> own country, Patricia. In French Flanders (the
> western part of the Nord-departement) the
> older people still speak a dialect of Western-
> Flemish that has de facto been isolated from
> the rest of the Western Flemish or Dutch
> speaking community since the 17th century.
But is also perfectly understandable for us  Flemings  on both sides of
the
'schreve'(= borderline) I love to listen to the free radio Uilenspieghel
in Cassel in France.

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 22:38:08 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:38:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.18 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.153808.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.17 (04) [E]

> From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Help needed
>
> Hi Patricia, hi all
>
> Patricia:
> <<<I also wondered if there was still any current
> dialect closer to Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?
>
> Just my humble opinion, worth +/- 2 eurocent:
> I think it's just impossible to quantify that for
> several reasons:
> 1. I sometimes have the impression that in the history
> of Dutch (or any language) the nowadays so called
> Standard Dutch (or standard variant) is considered to
> be the only result of that evolution that needs or
> that is worth to be accounted for. I have probs with
> that idea.
>
> 2. "Middle Dutch" as a (one) language doesn't exist:
> it's a cover term for several variants, ranging from
> (let's call it) West Flemish over Brabantian, Hollands
> to Limburgian.
> I wonder how it would be possible to compare the
> various Middle Dutch'es with the Modern Standard
> Variant and with the various dialects of these days. I
> mean, there is a danger of making "cross
> references"... AAAAARGH... This is not very clear, i'm
> sorry.
> I mean, there is no fixed point of reference what
> Middle Dutch is concerned, no Middle Dutch ANS, no
> Middle Dutch "Groene Boekje" and no Middle Dutch Van
> Daele :).

Dear Frank (what's in a name!)
There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's a big one in a
number of
volumes).
What we need is aan early Dutch (early Flemish) dictionnary.You may call
it
also a Franconian dictionnary
Why do people always want to put a language in specified little boxes,
one
for Flemish, one for Dutch, one for....All must have a name.
Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'? Scientists say it is
in
Middle High German, but for me it could also be a Flemish variant
because I
can still read it (without having had any instructions around that
subject)!
>
> 3. Obviously all dialects evolved, but in quit different ways.
dialects??
 Languages you mean! Flemish was the cultural language, and a big part
of
the early Dutch arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
standardlanguage afterwards.
 But modern West-Flemish retained
> features of the WF Middle Dutch variant (no
> dipthongization of certain long vowels in certain
> conditions), but changed other features. While Modern
> Brabantian dialects (in Flanders) still use the Middle
> Dutch "gij". Other aspects evolved in another way.
> Every variant retains and changes different
> aspect/features of a previous stage...
In West Flanders we also still use 'gij' (and 'ge' and 'gie' and 'je'
and
'you' and 'dje'(from du?))
> I mean, how would it be possible to decide which
> dialect/variant is closer to *the* Middle Dutch (which
> doesn't exist in the first place) than any other
> dialect/variant?
Could it not be the variant that can still read the originnal text
without
using a dictionnary, which in West-Flanders is quiet possible!I am
alwaeys
happy to be able to read f.i. Van Maerlant without help from any book
(but
for the words who are not used anymore, be they not that frequent).

groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 19 16:02:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:02:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.19 (01) [E/Z]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.090230.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (06) [E]

Luc Vanbrabant schreef:

> >From Flanders:
> Leegaard= luiaard (E=lazy person)
> leegelooielente= E: extremely slow and languid
> looi = lui (looi zijn) (E lazy)
> ijdelen= ledigen = ielen = legen (E/ to empty)
> Je mag nooit met ijdele handen over het erf lopen (E: There is alwaeys
> something you can do.

Ik meêne a West-Vlams _looi_ glad 't zelde klienkt
as Zeêuws _lui_. De Ollandse /ui/ is in 't Zeêuws
en 't West-Vlams naebie aoltied /uu/, mae in de uut-
zonderlijke gevaollen daer at dat nie zô is, klienkt de
/ui/ as de /eu/ in 't Duutse _Leute_ en nie as in 't
Ollands _fruit_.
Volgens mien è me 't bie 't Oôst-Fries _loi_, _leu_
of _lei_, 't West-Vlams _looi_ en 't Zeêuws _lui_
over krek 't zelde woord mee krek dezelde uutspraeke.

Luc, jie noem _leegaard_ voe 'luiaard' en daedeu 'euge ik
me 't Zeêuwse _leegganger_ dat a in 't Ollands 'lanterfanter'
zou zien. Ok è me in 't Zeêuws de uutdrukkige _ iet over
leeggang doee_ wat a zòvee wil zeie as 'iet op overschot
doee', iet allênig mae doee at er niks aors te doeen is dus.

In 't Zeêuws è me trouwens een keurig onderscheid tussen
_leêge_ (NL 'laag', tweêklank eê) en _leege_ (NL 'leeg', eên-
klank ee).

In 't dialect van 't eiland Walcher kenne ik 't woord _legelik_
vo NL 'waarschijnlijk', 'allicht': "da ku me legelik nie zonder
'im doee" (NL: dat kunnen we allicht niet zonder hem doen).
Is dat nog ieversten anders ok bekend?

Tjuu,

Marco

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (06) [E]

I forgot to mention that Zeêuws has the word
_loo_ (pronounced as 'low') for low besides
_leêge_ or _laege_. I only know it as a noun,
e.g.:

"Da gos eit n uut de loo": he's got that grass
from the low (piece of land).
"De guus spele aoltie in de loo, daè tenden 't
plein": the children always play in the low (part
of the square), there at the end of the square.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Lazy...

Beste leeglanners,

Regarding "lazy" I'd like to add that in Brabantish "leuzig" is also
used, but usually in the combination "lamleuzig"..."ne lamleuzigen boek"
for example is an utterly lazy (male) person.
Other words denoting laziness are : "lam", "tam" and "loo" (where the oo
stands for a sound like the French word "on" (= "man" (G)), a long nasal
form of an "o").
"Leuzig" makes me think of "deuzig", which refers to a condition when
one has eaten a little too much and he feels a little sleepy
afterwards...slumbering...
The verb that describes this "twilight" zone between being awake and
sleeping is "zuilen".
Bye for now !

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: etymology

As a newly subscribed Northumbrian speaker, could someone help with the
etymology of the word 'Gadgie' (sometimes Gadgee), which means man,
bloke
or fellow. The word is some times used in conjuction with 'ad' or 'owld'
-
as in 'Ad Gadgie' (an old man).

My society believes the word is of Roma (gypsy) origin. Are there any
lowland connections.

Thanks,

Glenn Simpson
Northumbrian Language Society

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Luc wrote (above):

> Regarding "lazy" I'd like to add that in Brabantish "leuzig" is also
> used,

Which has a Low Saxon (Low German) _lösig_ ['l9:zIC] (similar
pronunciation) 'lazy'.

> "Leuzig" makes me think of "deuzig", which refers to a condition when > one has eaten a little too much and he feels a little sleepy > afterwards...slumbering...

Which has a Low Saxon (Low German) cognate with a similar pronunciation
(['d9:zIC]): _dösig_ 'numb', 'sleepy', 'lethargic', 'sluggish',
'stupid', 'weird (in behavior)'.  There is also the verb (/dööz-/)
_dösen_ ['d9:zn=] 'to sleep/nap (not in bed)', 'to be in a stupor', 'to
be absent-minded'.  There are also nouns: _Dösel_ ['d9:zl=] 'ignorant
person', _Dösigkeit_ ['d9:zICka.It] 'ignorance', 'stupidity'.

Glenn wrote (above):

> As a newly subscribed Northumbrian speaker,

Welcome, Glenn!  It is nice to have Northumbrian represented on
Lowlands-L.

> could someone help with the
> etymology of the word 'Gadgie' (sometimes Gadgee), which means man,
> bloke
> or fellow. The word is some times used in conjuction with 'ad' or
> 'owld' -
> as in 'Ad Gadgie' (an old man).
>
> My society believes the word is of Roma (gypsy) origin. Are there any
> lowland connections.

If it is from Romany, I would assume that it is derived from
Anglo-Romany _gadgie_ ['gadji] ~ ['gadZi] 'man', which appears to be a
cognate of Vlach-Romani _gadzhe_ [ga'dZ,e] 'non-Roma (male)' (as opposed
to _rrom_ [GOm] ~ [ROm] ~ _dom_ [dOm] 'Rom(a)' ("Gypsy")).

Apparently, _gadgie_ is used in Scots too
(http://www.sol.co.uk/m/merlinpress/questions.html):

"There are many words used in particular parts of the country that are
distinctive and relate to the history of the language in that area, so
they should not be written off as aberrations or incorrect forms. For
example: gadgie - a man, from Romany, in parts of the country where
there have been many tinker travellers; ..."

A maccaronic poem from the Berwick Advertiser, 1910
(http://www2.arnes.si/~eusmith/Romany/samples.html):

A 'gadgie' when he is a 'chor'
A 'jugal' always fears
For 'jugals' as a rule are kept
By 'gadgies' with big 'keirs'

(gadgie:man, chor:thief, jugal:dog, keir:house)

[_Keir_ appears to come from Mongolic _ger_ ~ _ker_ 'dwelling' -- going
back to the Moghul rule of India?.]

If this and other Romany words were passed on to Northumbrian and Scots,
I would suspect this happened via the "jargon" of tinkers and other
travelling folks, most of which had little or no Roma ancestry but had
had traditional contacts with Roma.  Their "jargon" reminds one a little
of Rotwelsch (now extinct but with loan traces in German dialects), a
German-based "jargon" with Romany and Yiddish elements created and used
among socially marginalized people.

I can't think of a cognate of _gadgie_ in Low Saxon (Low German).

Regards
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 19 16:21:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:21:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.092141.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "Popkema" <apopkema at fa.knaw.nl>
Subject: Old Frisian 'thing'/'ewa'

Hello,

My name is Anne Popkema, and I am currently editing an Old Frisian
incunabulum at the Fryske Akademy yn Ljouwert, Holland. This book
consists of legal texts, and one of the most frequent legal terms, is
Old Frisian 'thing', which means something like 'court session'.
However, that translation is obviously a quite modern one, and I would
like to have an English equivalent of 'thing' that appeals more to
medieval society and resembles (if possible) the Old Frisian word.
Another word is 'ewa', which means '(traditional) law'. As 'law' is
allready used for Ofr. 'riucht', I would like to use a different term
for 'ewa'. Once again, suggestions are quite welcome, and in all cases I
would like to use forms that resemble the Old Frisian original, if
possible.

Greetings,

Anne Tjerk Popkema
Fryske Akademy
+31 (0)58 2343035
apopkema at fa.knaw.nl

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Welcome to Lowlands-L, Anne!

"Thing" (the Old Germanic institution, a word still used in North
Germanic) tends to be "translated" as "thing," "ting" or "þing" in
specialist English literature.  (In that case it would require an
explanatory footnote.)  How about "meeting of the Thing"?

How about translating _ewa_ as "legal lore"?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 19 16:33:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:33:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.19 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.093319.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.18 (05) [E]

I wrote:

> > I'd even say that the most 'archaic' form of
> > Western Flemish is even to be found in your
> > own country, Patricia. In French Flanders (the
> > western part of the Nord-departement) the
> > older people still speak a dialect of Western-
> > Flemish that has de facto been isolated from
> > the rest of the Western Flemish or Dutch
> > speaking community since the 17th century.

And then Luc Vanbrabant:

> But is also perfectly understandable for us  Flemings  on both sides of
> the
> 'schreve'(= borderline) I love to listen to the free radio Uilenspieghel
> in Cassel in France.

I'd like to add that speakers of all dialects of, let's say,
the southwestern dialectgroup (called Zeeuws/Zeelandic
in the Netherlands, West-Vlaams/West-Flemish in Bel-
gium and Vlamsch/Flemish in France) can perfectly under-
stand all other dialects. For me, as a speaker of the dialect
of Walcheren (Zeeland, Netherlands) it is no problem
whatsoever to communicate with people from Bruges,
Ostend, Kortrijk or French Flanders in my own dialect.
In fact, as soon as someone from another part of the
Zeeuws/West-Vlaams language continuum picks up
a 'familiar' sound, they always switch from Standard
Dutch or French to the regional language.

I think that SIL's Ethnologue has done a nice job in
describing all these regional languages as part of a whole.
It really goes too far for me to name this whole 'Vlaams'
as SIL does, because 'Vlaams' could never be an accurate
name for it since 'Vlaams' is nowadays mostly used for
the Standard Dutch as spoken in Belgium and not for the
original Friso-Franconian dialects in the southewest of
Holland and the west of Belgium.
That is however a relatively small mistake of SIL compared
with the fact that they name Achterhoeks, Drents, Gronings,
Sallands, Stellingwerfs and Twents as separate languages (!)
in stead of naming them as dialects or dialectgroups of Low
Saxon. SIL even summs up Veenkoloniaals and Wester-
wolds as separate language, whil in fact they are Low Saxon
dialects of the dialectgroup of Gronings... And then Lim-
burgish, officially recognized by the Dutch government, isn't
even named in SIL's ethnologue (www.ethnologue.com).

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Beste Luc, dear all

As Marco once wrote, the use of the word "Flemish"
sometimes is very confusing... and i'm sorry, but i
don't understand very well what you mean by the words
"Flemish" and (or versus??) "Dutch" in your mail.

<<<There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's

a big one in a number of volumes).<<<

I meant a contemporary one :).

<<<What we need is an early Dutch (early Flemish)
dictionnary. You may call it also a Franconian
dictionnary<<<

Why would we need that? The MNW already exists...
A quote from the digitalized version (*my stresses*):
"Het elektronische boek dat op de cd-rom met het icoon
MNW aangeduid wordt, biedt de elektronische versie van
deel 1 tot 9 van het Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek.
Deze negen delen bevatten het eigenlijke woordenboek
en beschrijven *grosso modo* de woordenschat van het
Nederlands uit de periode *1200-1500*, zoals het
gebruikt werd in de gebieden die *grotendeels*
samenvallen met het huidige Nederland en Vlaanderen.
Elke betekenis en elke betekenisnuance wordt steeds
geïllustreerd met één of meer citaten uit de
Middelnederlandse teksten die door de samenstellers
van het MNW als bron voor het woordenboek geselecteerd
werden."

What do you mean by "early Dutch" and "early Flemish"
and how do you distinguish between them, on which
linguistic and or historical grounds?
Why would we need a Franconian dictionary and how do
you see the relation between Franconian and what you
call "early Dutch" and (versus?) "early Flemish"?

<<<Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'?
Scientists say it is in Middle High German, but for me
it could also be a Flemish variant because I can still
read it (without having had any instructions around
that subject)!<<<

"Ludwigslied" (+/- 882) is written in OLD High German
(Rein Franconian). There are some very good reasons
for *linguists* to call it "Old" and "High German",
but these criteria (the most important one being the
second or High German sound shift) of course have
nothing to do with you understanding the text.
You're right in a certain way, in the same way a
German could say that Old or Middle Dutch reminds
him/her of a German variant.

<<<dialects?? Languages you mean! Flemish was the
cultural language, and a big part of the early Dutch
arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
standard language afterwards.<<<

No, i meant "dialects" :). Without wanting to
(re)start a discussion about the terms "dialect" and
"language", which imho is a pseudo problem anyway, i
just meant something as "language variant" without any
social, attitudinal or cultural evaluation.
But again, i find it very difficult to understand what
you mean by "Flemish" and "early Dutch". Could you
please explain a bit further.

<<<In West Flanders we...<<<

Luc Vanbrabant??? What's in a name? ;):))

Beste Luc, ik hoop dat je tijd vindt om een beetje
dieper op m'n vragen in te gaan. Ik kijk er alvast
naar uit!

Van harte,

Frank

=====
"De perto ninguém é normal!" - Caetano Veloso

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 19 23:11:12 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:11:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.161112.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen <baxichedda at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (11) [E]

Hello all,
I am somewhat slow in answer - a lot of work these
days...

 R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote
> I (not very familiar with horses and unfortunately
> allergic to them,
> though very appreciative of them) submitted the Low
> Saxon term:
>
> > /krüp-n+biit-r/ Krüppenbieter ['krYpm=bi:t3] ~
> > /krüf-n+biit-r/
> >    Krüppenbieter ['krYfm=bi:t3] 'inferior horse',
> > '(old) nag'
> >    ("crib biter," probably because it is not fed
> as
> > well as more able
> >    horses -- sad, but such are country life and
> the
> > "good" old days)
>
> Lone Olesen (very familiar with horses and probably
> not allergic to
> them) kindly responded with the Danish equivalent:
>
> > krybbebider (crib biter - a horse with the habit
> of
> > swallowing air, it rests its teeth on the crib to
> get
> > the right angle on the throat for doing it. The
> air
> > can take up space inside the stomach and the horse
> > will then eat less and become skinny).
>
> Thanks for clearing that up, Lone.  It's sad enough
> a story, though not
> as sad as the one I had fantasized about (i.e., a
> horse gnawing on the
> wood of a crib for lack of food ...).

[...]

> Some more Low Saxon horse-related words:
>
> /zeel/ Seel [ze:l] ~ [zE:l] 'rope', '(horse's)
> harness' (neut., pl.
>    Selen)
>
> /zeel-n+tüüg/ Selentüüg ['ze:lnty:C] ~ ['zE:lnty:C]
> '(horse's) harness'
>    (neut., uncountable; < + Tüüg 'stuff',
> 'paraphernalia')
>
> /peir(d')+köüp-r/ Peerköper ~ Pierkeuper
> ['pE:I3k9.Ip3] ~ ['pi:3k9.Ip3]
>    'horse dealer' (masc., pl. Peerköpers ~
> Pierkeupers; + Köper 'buyer'
>    < /köüp-/ köpen 'to buy')
>
> /peir(d')+tüxt-r/ Peertüchter ~ Piertüchter
> ['pE:I3tYCt3] ~
>    ['pi:3tYCt3] ("horses cultivator") 'horse
> breeder' (masc., pl.
>    Peertüchters ~ Piertüchters < Tucht [tUXt]
> 'breed' < _teh(g)en_
>    'to pull/raise'; a German loan (Züchter <
> Zucht)?; might Danish
>    _hesteopdrætter_ "horses up-raiser" 'horse
> breeder' be a calque
>    based on older Low Saxon *_peyrdeopteyger_, cf.
> Modern Low Saxon
>    _(up- ~ op-)te(g)hen_ 'to pull/raise (up)', 'to
> raise (children or
>    animals)' (p. part. (ge-)tagen), e.g., Boorn un
> tagen was ik in
>    Hamborg 'I was born and raised in Hamburg')
>
> /peir(d')+stal/ Peerstall ~ Pierstall ['pE:I3sta.l]
> ~ ['pi:3sta.l]
>    'hose stable' (masc., pl. Peerställ ~ Pierställ
> ['pE:I3stE.l] ~
>    ['pi:3stE.l]; Danish _hestestald_; < + Stall
> 'stable')
>
> /peir(d')+deek/ Peerdeek ~ Pierdeek ['pE:I3de:k] ~
> ['pi:3de:k] 'horse
>    blanket' (fem., pl. Peerdeken ~ Pierdeken; cf.
> Danish _hestedækken_;
>    < + Deek 'cover', 'blanket')
>
> /stal+knext/ Stallknecht ['sta.lknEC(t)] 'stable
> hand', 'groom'
>    (masc., pl. Stallknechten; cf. Dutch
> _stalknecht_; < Stall
>    'stable' + Knecht 'servant', 'farmhand' {cognate
> of English
>    "knight"})
>
> /peir(d')+kamer/ Peerkamer ~ Pierkomer ['pE:I3kQ:k3]
> ~ ['pi:3ko:m3]
>    'groom's room (next to the horse stables)' (fem.,
> pl. Peerkamern
>    ~ Pierkomern; < + Kamer ~ Komer 'chamber',
> '(small) room')
>
> Hmmm ... and then there is this _klaphingst_,
> _klophingst_, etc.
> (stallion with one testicle).  I am not familiar
> with this rather
> specialized term (or the condition, and I don't
> understand this
> reference to _kloppen_ 'to knock' or _klappen_ 'to
> knock', 'to clap',
> 'to fold').  I would expect something like
> *_Klopphingst_ or
> *_Klapphingst_ in Low Saxon then, but I do not know
> if it exists.
>
> By the way, _Klapp_ [klap] (fem., pl. _Klappen_) can
> also refer to a
> small stable door (besides 'tailgate', 'flap' or
> '(hinged) lid'), one of
> those that does not cover the entire doorway, fairly
> typical of horse
> stables, I guess.

To begin from the start... it is quite common to
"name" a horse after its bad habits, eg. a restless
horse who takes up the habit of rocking from one front
leg to the other is called a "weaver" (væver in
Danish). But the crib biter might also develop the
habit because it has too little to eat, which
fortunately is not so common nowadays.
It is quite a "revelation" to me to find that most
"Danish" horse words seem to be Low Saxon, I guess
people mostly refer to a German origin because they
don't know the difference, and some words seem to have
come from German - eg. the astmatic horse who is
"engbrystig" - "Engbrüstig" or the rider's legs that
for some reason are "schenkler" even today.

"Seelentüüg" is our "seletøj", and the "Peertüchter"
could be a "hestetugter", but the word "tugte" which
used to be Danish for breeding of both animals and
children has hence become very negative in its
meaning, and if you said it today, it means a person
who teaches the horses some "good manners" by beating
them :-(

About the "klaphingst",
Marco Evenhuis <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl> also wrote
that:

>>>To come back to the 'horse-issue', Ron mentions the
_klaphingst_
or _klophingst_. I already mentioned Zeelandic has the
same word
for this handicaped stallion (with one testicle):
_klop'iengst_. One
would expect it to be a Standard Dutch term as well,
but as far as I
know it isn't.
Zeeuws has the verb _kloppe(n)_ in the meaning of 'to
sharpen
a scythe'. I believe it goes a bit too far to state
that a _klop'iengst_
is a horse that met a well sharpened scythe...<<<

The condition of the stallion is of a medical kind, I
believe the same suffering can happen to humans as
well, when the "working part" of the testicle does not
go from the part in the body where it is created and
down to where it is supposed to be. My "Dansk
etymologisk ordbog" suggests that "klaphingst" has a
connection to "kloppen" from Low Saxon, referring to
the only way the kastration of the poor horse could
take place: knocking with a wooden hammer (!) to
destroy the cord transporting the sperm (it says so in
the dictionary anyway). I think Ron is quite right, it
was not always a good life to be a horse in the "good
old days"...
Greetings, Lone Olesen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks for sharing your equestrian expertise (above), Lone.

> It is quite a "revelation" to me to find that most
> "Danish" horse words seem to be Low Saxon, I guess
> people mostly refer to a German origin because they
> don't know the difference,

That's right.  And how could they be expected to know any better when
most speakers in Germany didn't even know or at least had believed or
payed lipservice to the line that their language belongs to German (and
the language has all but disappeared among Denmark's "German" [i.e.,
Germanized] minority)?  However, I would expect the distinction to be
made in better Danish dictionaries that provide etymological
information, since it ought to be a well-known fact that Scandinavian
(especially Danish) experienced enormous lexical influx specifically
from Middle Low Saxon (Low German).

> and some words seem to have
> come from German - eg. the astmatic horse who is
> "engbrystig" - "Engbrüstig" or the rider's legs that
> for some reason are "schenkler" even today

The Low Saxon equivalent of that (hwee! another horse term!) is
_amböstig_ ['?a.mb9stIC] ~ _ambostig_ ['?a.mbOstIC].  'Breast' is _Bost_
[bOs(t)], and 'narrow' is _eng_ [?E.N(k)] (or _drang_ [dra.N(k)] in the
sense of 'tight(-fitting)').  I assume *_engböstig_ ~ *_engbostig_
underwent assimilation of the /N/ to the following /b/ = /mb/.  However,
I believe this word can also be used for humans, in the past (or still
now?) perhaps even for 'asthmatic'.

'Thigh' is _Schenkel_ in German and _Schenkel_ ['SE.nkl=] ~ _Schinkel_
['SI.Nkl=] in Low Saxon (besides _Lank_ [la.Nk] and _Lurr_ [lU.3`]), so
*_Schenkler_ ~ *_Schenkler_ would be possible in Low Saxon also (though
I can not vouch for it actually existing).

> but the word "tugte" which
> used to be Danish for breeding of both animals and
> children has hence become very negative in its
> meaning, and if you said it today, it means a person
> who teaches the horses some "good manners" by beating
> them :-(

Interesting!  In German and Low Saxon there are lexical connections
there too (and I don't doubt for one second that training horses pretty
much always amounted to abuse in the past).  However, German _züchten_
and Low Saxon _tügten_ usually refer to actual breeding, while only
_züchtigen_ and _tügtigen_ respectively explicitly denote 'to
train/teach by means of physical punishment' (not only in reference to
animals).

> The condition of the stallion is of a medical kind, I
> believe the same suffering can happen to humans as
> well, when the "working part" of the testicle does not
> go from the part in the body where it is created and
> down to where it is supposed to be.

Yes, this is a not uncommon condition known in English as "undescended
testicle," alternatively as "cryptorchid testicle" and "cryptorchism"
(which nowadays tends to be discovered early and corrected after one
year of age in humans).

> connection to "kloppen" from Low Saxon, referring to
> the only way the kastration of the poor horse could
> take place: knocking with a wooden hammer (!) to
> destroy the cord transporting the sperm (it says so in
> the dictionary anyway).

Ouch!

> I think Ron is quite right, it
> was not always a good life to be a horse in the "good
> old days"...

Or a human!  (But let's not go there.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Incidentally, I was very surprised to learn that I'm allergic to
horses, since I have had next to no contact with them.  Apparently, the
explanation is that when I grew up, upholstery tended to be stuffed with
horse hair.  I know, I know!  I'm kind of dating myself here, but I
assure you it was *after* the bronze age.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 03:23:07 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:23:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.202307.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.17 (08) [LS]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: LL-L 2002-06-15 (04)
...
>>Wat seggt de (olen) Lí²²í´§ bi Ju denn fíº í°¤í²³í´³ch _hä³³lich_ (ingelsch
>>_ugly_)?
>
>Heel stuur, Ron. Kein eein kann't opstí±ºí¾³ verkloorn'!
>
>Mi dí±Ží¸´, dat is víº í° Tieden all' verloorn gungen.

Moin Fiete !

In Eastern Friesland we know the word "gri:selgh" but this
means "horrible", "awful" or "frightening". ("gri:seln" = to shudder)
For "ugly" we mostly use "ma:l" (a French loan ?).
"Dat let läip ma:l" = that looks very ugly
"Dat is 'n mâl sghilt" = thats an ugly image
"Ma:l" also denotes "bad", "mad", "crazy"

Kumpelment
Holger

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (04) [E]

>From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen <baxichedda at yahoo.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (11) [E]
>
>Hello all,
>I am somewhat slow in answer - a lot of work these
>days...
...
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Lexicon
>
>Thanks for sharing your equestrian expertise (above), Lone.
>
>> It is quite a "revelation" to me to find that most
>> "Danish" horse words seem to be Low Saxon, I guess
>> people mostly refer to a German origin because they
>> don't know the difference,
...
>> and some words seem to have
>> come from German - eg. the astmatic horse who is
>> "engbrystig" - "Engbrí²í´©g"
>The Low Saxon equivalent of that (hwee! another horse term!) is
>_ambíºí´©g_ ['?a.mb9stIC] ~ _ambostig_ ['?a.mbOstIC].  'Breast' is _Bost_
>[bOs(t)], and 'narrow' is _eng_ [?E.N(k)] (or _drang_ [dra.N(k)] in the
>sense of 'tight(-fitting)').  I assume *_engbíºí´©g_ ~ *_engbostig_
>underwent assimilation of the /N/ to the following /b/ = /mb/.  However,
>I believe this word can also be used for humans, in the past (or still
>now?) perhaps even for 'asthmatic'.

Hello Ron !
Perhaps You are right but if I hear the term "ambostig" I'd rather think
it
to be derived from *aam-bostig* (breath-breasty / breast breathing).
Regards
Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Fiete, Holger,

In other dialects of Low Saxon (Low German), (French _mal_ 'bad', 'ill'
>) _mal_ ~ _mall_ [ma.l] does not mean 'ugly', only 'crazy', 'weird', 'silly', 'stupid', 'out of control'.  Derivations are (/mal-/) _mallen_ [ma.ln] 'to behave in a silly way', 'to clown around', _mallerig_ 'silly', _Mallaap_ ['ma.l(?)Q:p] ("silly monkey/ape" ~ _Maiaap_ "May monkey/ape") 'silly person', 'clown', _Mallmöhl_ ['ma.lm9:l] ("crazy mill") 'merry-go-round'.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 03:25:50 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:25:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.202550.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Iduna Borger <idborger at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (02) [E]

Reply to Ann Popkema regarding "Ewa":
     The term Ewa can be translated as "common law,"
a term in English and American law defined by Black's
Law Dictionary as "comprising the body of those
principles and rules of action, relating to the
government and security of persons and property, which
derive their authority solely from usages and customs
of immemorial antiquity...particularly the ancient
unwritten law of England."

           Iduna Brabender, J.D.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 14:41:36 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:41:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.074136.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (02) [E]

At 09:21 AM 06/19/02 -0700, Ron wrote:

  "Thing" (the Old Germanic institution, a word still used in North
  Germanic) tends to be "translated" as "thing," "ting" or "þing" in
  specialist English literature.  (In that case it would require an
  explanatory footnote.)  How about "meeting of the Thing"?

Actually, in English we have the word "hustings", i.e. "hus - tings",
local meetings to which politicians flock during election
time, with the attendant expression "out in the hustings", that is, at
the local riding level.

Ed Alexander
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Wês in sinnestriel, in oar hat der forlet fan.
Fryske Sprekwurd

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

But surely, Ed, "hustings" is not English by origin.  Or is it?  If it
were English I would expect (*_hûs+þing_ >) *"house thing".  The
_American Heritage Dictionary_ says that it comes from _hûsting_ < Old
Norse _hûsðing_ = _hûs_ 'house' + _ðing_ 'assembly'.  Why _ðing_ and not
_þing_?  Why English "ting" and not _thing_ from Old Norse _þing_ or
_ðing_ (though ON _þing_ > Scandinavian *_ting_, and ON *_ðing_ > Sc.
*_ding_)?  Did the Viking invasion not precede the English shift (/uu/ >
/au/) _û_ > _ou_, and would we therefore not have to expect *"house
things"?  I would be more convinced if it said that "hustings" was a
later Scandinavian loan, namely from *_husting_ (< ON _húsþing_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (02) [E]

In Dutch there are "geding"   "bedingen"  "rechtsgeding", so the word
for
thing, the Germanic meeting of the people, isn't gone,  it just got a
narrowed down meaning, all for legal things.

[Wim Verdoold]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 14:43:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:43:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.074327.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (05) [E/LS]

Hi

More hors words..

Here in salland, we use the word RRRRRR!!   To tell a horse to stop, and
as
I'm told the word came into our dialects with the Russian horses that
were
imported in the last century, is there any treuth to this story??

W!M

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle Netherlands

[Wim Verdoold]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 14:44:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:44:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.20 (03) [E]
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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Origins of Anglian-Northumbrian language

Dear all

Ron suggested I ask the list which of the lowland languages was most
closely aligned to Anglian-Northumbrian, i.e. the language spoken in the
North East English counties of Northumberland and Durham (similar to
Scots). I had assumed it was one of the Frisian dialects but this may
not
be the case. History tell us that Northumbrian is supposedly derived
from
language of the Angles. I wonder to which modern language / ethnic group
the Angles are most closely related to on the continent? And from which
part of Low Countries did the Angles come from? There is a debate in my
region over whether the Anglian influence on the Northumbrian language
is
really that strong.
>
Be interested in your thoughts.
>
Kind Regards (Gan Canny),
>
>
Glenn

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 16:17:48 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:17:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.091748.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Inquiry

Beste leeglanners,

I have tried to compose a list of words and expressions that might
enable us to see basic similarities and differences between our Lowlands
languages. I deliberately chose words that are both very "universal" but
that could yet at the same time be interesting in order to oppose
certain dialects.
The same 16 expressions have been translated in Dutch, English and
German, as well as in my local Brabantish, more specifically a version
that was spoken in Merchtem during roughly the 20th century.
Sociologically, it could be called "plat-Merchtes" (M).
If only each subscriber would be willing to translate this in his/her
dialect (along the dotted line), I'd be very grateful.
Thanks in advance.

Luc Hellinckx

PS : I used standard Dutch spelling to simulate the sound of (M).
Everybody's free of course to use the spelling he/she knows best. I also
want to apologise for any mistakes I made in the translations.

1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
It was cold this morning (E)
Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
't Was kaat te merreget (M)
.....
2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
Ice, fire and sun (E)
Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
.....
3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
A grey face (E)
Ein graues Gesicht (G)
E graat gezicht (M)
.....
4) Het is zonde ! (D)
It's a sin ! (E)
Es ist (eine) Sünde !(G)
't Es sunne !(M)
.....
5) Volgend jaar (D)
Next year (E)
Nächstes Jahr (G)
't Noste jaar (M)
.....
6) Achter je rug (D)
Behind your back (E)
Hinter deinem Rücken (G)
Achter a rug (M)
.....
7) Vader en moeder (D)
Father and mother (E)
Vater und Mutter (G)
Voor en mojjer (M)
.....
8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
Neben der Toilette (G)
Neuvest 't euske (M)
.....
9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
The door was ajar (E)
Die Tür war angelehnt (?) (G)
De deu stond op een gerre (M)
.....
10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
Three girls and six boys (E)
Drei Mädchen und sechs Jungen (G)
Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
.....
11) Broer en zuster (D)
Brother and sister (E)
Bruder und Schwester (G)
Bruur en zuster (M)
.....
12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
A big house with twelve maids (E)
Ein großes Haus mit zwölf Diensmädchen (G)
E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
.....
13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
I was the first child (E)
Ich war das erste Kind (G)
Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
.....
14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
The second or the third wife ? (E)
Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
.....
15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
A man and a woman (E)
Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
.....
16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
We went swimming (E)
Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
Me zen weste zweummen (M)
.....

[Luc Hellinckx]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Expressions

Luc,

Whatever is behind your interesting choice of expressions (immersion in
Thai culture?), below please find the eqivalents in Northern Low Saxon
(Low German), with Dutch-based spelling in paretheses and SAMPA phonetic
rendering (http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm) in square
brackets.

Keep haing a good time in Thailand!

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

1)  't Was kalt vunmorgen (~ hüüd morgen).
    ('t Was kaalt voenmorgn (~ huud morgn))
    ['vas ka.lt fU.n'mO3`gN= (~ hy:t 'mo3`gN=)]

2)  Ies, Füer (~ Füür) un Sünn
    (Ies, vuur oen zun)
    [?I:s fy:3` ?Un zY.n]

3)  'n gries(et) (~ grau(et)) Gesicht
    ('n griez(et) (~ graau(et)) gezicht)
    [n= 'gri:z(et) (~ gra.U(et)) ge'zIC(t)]

4)  Dat 's ('n) Sünn (~ Sünd)!
    (Dat 's n zun(d)!)
    [dat ?Is (n=) zY.n(d)]

5)  Dat tokamene Jahr
    (Dat toukaomene jaor)
    [dat 'toUkQ:mene (d)jQ:3`]

6)  Achter dien Rügg (~ Rüch)
    (Achter dien rug)
    ['?axt3` di:n 'rYC]

7)  Vadder un Moder
    (Vadder oen mouder)
    ['fad3` ?Un 'moUd3`]

8)  Blang(en) (~ neven) d'n Aftritt (~ dat Paddemang)
    (Blang(n) (~ neevn) n aftrit (~ dat paddemang))
    [bla.N: (~ 'ne:vm=) n= '?aftrIt (~ dat pade'ma.N(k)]

9)  De Döör stünd 'n (lütt) beten apen (~ loos).
    (Dei deur stund n (lut) beetn aopn (~ lous).)
    [dEI d9:3` stY.n(d) n= (lYt) 'be:tn= '?Q:pm= (~ lo.Us)]

10) Dree Deerns (~ Dierns) un söss Jungs
    (Drei deirns (~ dierns) oen zös joengs)
    [drE.I dE.I3`ns (~ di:3`ns) ?Un z9s (d)jU.N(k)s]

11) Broder un Süster
    (brouder oen zuster)
    ['broUd3` ?Un 'zYst3`]

12) (Een ~) 'n groot (~ grotet) Huus mit twölf (Deenst-)Deerns
    (~(Deenst-)Dierns)
    ((Ein ~) n grout(et) hôês mit twölf (deinst-)deirns
    (~ (deinst-)dierns)
    [(?E.In ~) n= gro.Ut(et) hu:s mIt tv9.lf ('dE.Ins(t))
    dE.I3`ns (~('dE.Ins(t))di:3`ns]

13) Ik was dat eerste Kind.
    (Ik was dat eirste kind.)
    [?Ik was dat '?E.I3`ste kI.nt]

14) De tweede or de dörde Fru (~ Fro)?
    (Dei tweide or dei dörde vrôê (~ vroou)?)
    [dEI 'tvE.Ide O3` dEI 'd93`de fru: (~ fro.U)]

15) (Een ~) 'n Mann un (een ~) 'n Fru (~ Fro)
    (Ein ~) n maan oen (ein ~) n vrôê (~ vroou)
    [(EIn ~) n= ma.n ?Un (Ein ~) n= fru: (~ fro.U)]

16) Wi sünd swimmen (~ swümmen ~ swemmen ~ swömmen) gahn (~ west).
    [Wie zund swimn (~ swumn ~ swemn ~ swömn) gaon (~ west).)
    [vi: zYn(t) svI.m: (~ svY.m: ~ svE.m: ~ sv9.m:) gQ:n (~ vEs(t)]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 16:32:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:32:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.20 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.093251.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Horses

Dear all

Northumbrian words for horses are 'cuddy', which usually refers to
ponies
that were used in mines or to horses that are old (ready for the
'knackers
yard' as we say). Another word is 'gallowah' but I will have to check
the
spelling on that one.

Glenn

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 18:19:43 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:19:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.111943.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]

Luc asked to translate some sentences so I translated
them in Zeeuws, more specific the dialect of the isle
of Walcheren, below.

Regards,

Marco

> 1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
> It was cold this morning (E)
> Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
> 't Was kaat te merreget (M)

't Was koud vanmorge

> 2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
> Ice, fire and sun (E)
> Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)

Ies, waeter, vier en zunne

> 3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
> A grey face (E)
> Ein graues Gesicht (G)
> E graat gezicht (M)

Een graeuw wezen

> 4) Het is zonde ! (D)
> It's a sin ! (E)
> Es ist (eine) Sünde !(G)
> 't Es sunne !(M)

't Is zonde!

> 5) Volgend jaar (D)
> Next year (E)
> Nächstes Jahr (G)
> 't Noste jaar (M)

Kommende jaer

> 6) Achter je rug (D)
> Behind your back (E)
> Hinter deinem Rücken (G)
> Achter a rug (M)

Achter je rik (rikke)

> 7) Vader en moeder (D)
> Father and mother (E)
> Vater und Mutter (G)
> Voor en mojjer (M)

Vaoder en moeder

> 8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
> Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
> Neben der Toilette (G)
> Neuvest 't euske (M)

Neffen 't 'uusje ('uusje 'onderd, 't gemak, 't toilet, etc.)

> 9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
> The door was ajar (E)
> Die Tür war angelehnt (?) (G)
> De deu stond op een gerre (M)

De deure stoeng op een garre

> 10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
> Three girls and six boys (E)
> Drei Mädchen und sechs Jungen (G)
> Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)

Drie meissen en zes joengers

> 11) Broer en zuster (D)
> Brother and sister (E)
> Bruder und Schwester (G)
> Bruur en zuster (M)

Broer en zus

> 12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
> A big house with twelve maids (E)
> Ein großes Haus mit zwölf Diensmädchen (G)
> E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)

Een groôt 'uus mee twaolf (twelf) meiden

> 13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
> I was the first child (E)
> Ich war das erste Kind (G)
> Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)

Ik was 't eêste kind

> 14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
> The second or the third wife ? (E)
> Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
> Twurn of terre waef ? (M)

't Twidde of derde wuuf?

> 15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
> A man and a woman (E)
> Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
> Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)

Een vint (kaerel) en een wuuf (vrommes)

> 16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
> We went swimming (E)
> Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
> Me zen weste zweummen (M)

Me è wiste zwemme

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 18:21:49 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:21:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.20 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.112149.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Lexicon"

> From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (05) [E/LS]
>
> Hi
>
> More hors words..
>
> Here in salland, we use the word RRRRRR!!   To tell a horse to stop, and

I wasn't brought up with horses, so can't offer my own comments,
but Sir James Wilson in his 1926 book "The Dialects of Central
Scotland" offers the following calls to horses:

"Stop": woa!, staun! or set!

"Go on": chick! or jee-up!

"Come to the left": hee!

"Go to the right": woaback!, huback! or huproond!

"Go back": back!

"Move to the side": bootower! or aboot!

"Come": cope!

"Woa" and "Jee-up" were certainly the calls we used when "playing
horses" as children.

There's a legacy to the era of horse-riding in our locality in the
name of "Hadfast Brae" - so called because it's so steep it was
necessary to "haud fast" (hold tight) when riding down it
("brae" = hillside).

Wilson also lists the following words for telling different
animals to "come":

Cows: pwray, pwroo, pwrooaa or pwray lady (though note that in
      "Betty's Trip tae Edinbury" on ScotsteXt Betty addresses
       a cow with, "Kosh-kosh, Lady".

Pigs: gissay, grumphie or hiskay.

Calves: pree-caufie.

Hens: chookie or tick-tick.

Chickens: chuckie.

Cat: cheetie-pussy  (see on ScotsteXt the nursery rhyme
                     "Cheetie-Poussie Cattie-O").

Rabbits:  maap.

Pigeons: pud.

Dogs: iskay. Also "stee" = "go away".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 20:57:25 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:57:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.135725.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Expressions"

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]
>
> Luc asked to translate some sentences so I translated
> them in Zeeuws, more specific the dialect of the isle
> of Walcheren, below.

I'm adding Scots:

1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
It was cold this morning (E)
Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
't Was kaat te merreget (M)
It wis cauld this mornin (S)
.....
2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
Ice, fire and sun (E)
Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
Ice, lowe an sun (S)
.....
3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
A grey face (E)
Ein graues Gesicht (G)
E graat gezicht (M)
A grey face (S)       (but what does this mean?
                       What is a "grey face"?)
.....
4) Het is zonde ! (D)
It's a sin ! (E)
Es ist (eine) Snde !(G)
't Es sunne !(M)
It's a sin ! (S)
.....
5) Volgend jaar (D)
Next year (E)
Nchstes Jahr (G)
't Noste jaar (M)
Nixt year (S)
.....
6) Achter je rug (D)
Behind your back (E)
Hinter deinem Rcken (G)
Achter a rug (M)
Ahint yer back (S)
.....
7) Vader en moeder (D)
Father and mother (E)
Vater und Mutter (G)
Voor en mojjer (M)
Faither an mither (S)
.....
8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
Neben der Toilette (G)
Neuvest 't euske (M)
Aby the bathroom (S)
.....
9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
The door was ajar (E)
Die Tr war angelehnt (?) (G)
De deu stond op een gerre (M)
The door wis ajee (S)
.....
10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
Three girls and six boys (E)
Drei Mdchen und sechs Jungen (G)
Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
Three lassies an sax laddies (S)
.....
11) Broer en zuster (D)
Brother and sister (E)
Bruder und Schwester (G)
Bruur en zuster (M)
Brither an sister (S)
.....
12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
A big house with twelve maids (E)
Ein groes Haus mit zwlf Diensmdchen (G)
E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
A muckle hoose wi twal maids (S)
.....
13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
I was the first child (E)
Ich war das erste Kind (G)
Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
A wis the first bairn (S)
.....
14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
The second or the third wife ? (E)
Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
Yhe saicont or third wife? (S)
.....
15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
A man and a woman (E)
Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
A man an a wumman (S)
.....
16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
We went swimming (E)
Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
Me zen weste zweummen (M)
We wis awa for a soom (S)
.....

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 21:00:36 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:00:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.20 (09) [E]
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From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.20 (01) [E]

R. F. Hahn wrote:

> But surely, Ed, "hustings" is not English by origin.  Or is it?  If it
> were English I would expect (*_hûs+þing_ >) *"house thing".  The
> _American Heritage Dictionary_ says that it comes from _hûsting_ < Old
> Norse _hûsðing_ = _hûs_ 'house' + _ðing_ 'assembly'.  Why _ðing_ and not
> _þing_?  Why English "ting" and not _thing_ from Old Norse _þing_ or
> _ðing_ (though ON _þing_ > Scandinavian *_ting_, and ON *_ðing_ > Sc.
> *_ding_)?  Did the Viking invasion not precede the English shift (/uu/ >
> /au/) _û_ > _ou_, and would we therefore not have to expect *"house
> things"?  I would be more convinced if it said that "hustings" was a
> later Scandinavian loan, namely from *_husting_ (< ON _húsþing_).

The Scots is 'thing' (for an object) though the pronounciation can vary
[DIN, DIn, hIn, hIN] Shetland has [tIN].

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 22:08:33 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:08:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.20 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.150833.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.20 (03) [E]

Glenn Simpson wrote:
> Subject: Origins of Anglian-Northumbrian language
>
> Dear all
>
> Ron suggested I ask the list which of the lowland languages was most
> closely aligned to Anglian-Northumbrian, i.e. the language spoken in the
> North East English counties of Northumberland and Durham (similar to
> Scots). I had assumed it was one of the Frisian dialects but this may
> not
> be the case. History tell us that Northumbrian is supposedly derived
> from
> language of the Angles. I wonder to which modern language / ethnic group
> the Angles are most closely related to on the continent? And from which
> part of Low Countries did the Angles come from? There is a debate in my
> region over whether the Anglian influence on the Northumbrian language
> is
> really that strong.

Surely the most closely related language is Scots?

Taken from http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/whits.htm

"These people were the descendants of the Angles who had settled in the
north of England. The Saxons on the other hand tended to settle in the
south. The (Anglo-Saxon) Dialect spoken by the Angles later became
infused
with a large amount of Norse. This was brought in by Viking incursions
and
settlements in Northumbria. This language called Inglis was spoken
between
the river Humber in the south and the river Forth in the north."

These (Anglos) folk came from around Denmark and the mouth of the River
Elbe / Elve between the 4th and 6th centuries AD.

Also see  http://www.lallans.co.uk/eng.html

The sources are from the Scots point of view but are relevant in that
Scots
and Northumbrian share a common ancestor.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Andy wrote (above):

> These (Anglos) folk came from around Denmark and the mouth of the
> River Elbe / Elve between the 4th and 6th centuries AD.

There is still a region (Low Saxon _Landschupp_, German _Landschaft_
"landscape") called _Angeln_ (= Anglia) in Northern Germany.  Its
boundaries roughly coincide with a triangle at whose points are the
cities Flensborg/Flensburg, Slesvig/Schleswig and Kappeln, which can
also be described as situated between Flensborg/Flensburg (on the Danish
border), River Slie/Schlei and the Baltic Sea coast.  In other words,
Anglia is situated much farther north than the mouth of River
Elv'/Elbe/Laba, which was the home of Saxons and, in at least two
immigration waves along the North Sea coast, Frisians.  My mental
picture has always been that the Jutes (Euts, who came to be concquered
and absorbed by the Danes) lived in the north (today's Jutland,
Denmark), the Angles just south of them (see above), and the Saxons
south of the Angles, gradually spreading southward from Northern Saxony
(North Albingiers north of River Elbe) in a fan-like fashion and
creating various Saxon tribes (Engers south, Westphalians southwest,
Eastphalians southeast, still representing Low Saxon (Low German)
dialect groups, former Engria being a transitional area between the two
"...phalias").  The Angels then came under Saxon domination in the
region Vegria (Wegrien).

More information (in German):
http://www.marschundfoerde.de/artikel/angeln.html
http://www.welt.de/daten/2001/05/11/0511rw252787.htx
http://www.murzi.de/Landschaft_Angeln/landschaft_angeln.html

Also the maps here (in German and Dutch):
http://home.wxs.nl/~marcel.tettero/Sachsen.html
http://www.tpo.de/deutsch/ostfalen.htm

However, lately people have been saying that other tribes, including
Franconian and Rhenish ones, participated in the Germanic colonization
of Britain (assumedly from the Frisian-speaking coast), and most of them
do not mention the Frisians, which seems odd considering that English is
traditionally assigned to an "Anglo-Frisian" sub-branch of West
Germanic, but the Germanic settlers in Britain referred to themselves as
Saxons and Angles.  How can the close relationship between English (and
Scots and Northumbrian) and Frisian be reconciled with the ethnonyms,
and why are Frisians hardly ever mentioned?  Let's be wild and speculate
that those who strongly Frisianized the Early English language were
mostly Frisian women (attached to predominantly male Saxons, Angels and
Jutes en route from their native places to Britain).  Has any of this
ever been explored?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Legends"

>> From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
>> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (05) [E/LS]

>> I'm told the word came into our dialects with the Russian horses that
were
>> imported in the last century, is there any treuth to this story??

There's an interesting Somerset story about an imported horse,
which I've been preparing for web presentation. It's in Somerset
(or "Zummerzet") dialect. I'll just put it here with some of my
notes so you can read it, because I really don't know if I'll
ever find time for non-Scots Web presentations!

Note particularly the use of apparent Americanisms (hoss, fall,
bust, hollied), which actually originated in the South West of
England and probably went over with the Mayflower! Note also
the use of "thee" in all cases, much like American Quakers.

(Notes and glossary:

Zummet, volly (something, follow): note the use of 'z' and
'v' at the beginning of words, where standardised English
would have 's' and 'f'. This tends to occur in words of
Anglo-Saxon derivation, not in words from French or Latin.

A 'ud: 'he would'. Rules for pronouns are complex, but I've
put a summary at the end of the story.

Fall (autumn) is distinguished from 'vall', meaning to topple.

Mid: 'might'
Girt: 'great'.
En: 'him'.
Ben't: 'be not'.
Burches: 'breeches'.
Hoss: 'horse'.
Wold: 'old'.
Handy: 'nearby'.
Midbe: 'maybe'.
Dost zay: 'do you say'.
Sim t' I: 'it seems to me'.
Athirt: 'across'.
Thik: 'this'.
Droo: 'through'.
Skeer-devil: 'a swift'.
Zoo: 'so' (Old Levy's speech is more archaic than the farmer's,
      which is more archaic than the narrator's).
Croopy: 'crouch'.
O'n: 'of him'.
Ben't 'ee?: 'aren't you?'
Wordle: 'world'.
I really sim: 'It really seems to me'.
Ees: 'yes'.
Plimmed: 'swollen'.
Bu'st: 'burst'.
Rafted: 'maddened'.
Shard: 'gap', 'fragment'.
Gie: 'give'.
Vier: 'fire'; midden: 'might not'.
Hollied: 'yelled'.
Stud: 'study' (transitive). Note that deleting a "-y" from the
      end of a verb produces the transitive form.
Hoss-stinger: 'dragonfly'.
Quirk: 'grunt'.
Zwodder: 'dream', 'doze'.
Sprack: 'quick'.
T'othermy: 'the others'.
Fess: 'proud'.
Whicker: 'whinny'.
Capical: 'capital'.
Ba'dy: 'bawdy'.
A-strout: 'outspread'.

And here's the story itself:

THE STORY OF VALL-TEACHER

Co! A terrible one for a horse! I should zay that Farmer Pomeroy is
almost so much tookt up wi' horses as Solomon Viney wi' pigs. In his
younger days there wur no more dare-devil horseman in the country than
Farmer John Pomeroy, and his talent for horses and his knowledge of
horseflesh wur zummet wonderful to behold. Out-and-out the best rider
that did volly either the Cattistock or the Blackmore Vale; there, the
young Farmer wur in a class all to his ownzelf!

Not a horse-zale or fair of any note in the two counties but what Farmer
wur on the spot, most often with a string of horses; and always ready,
het or wet, for a deal or a chop. Bridgwater, Beam'ster, Dorchester,
Pack-Monday, Tor Hill; no matter what the point of the compass, Farmer
could be counted upon to appear for the fair; and if 'twur poorish trade
round-about, so often as not a 'ud strike away into Devon, or Wiltshire,
or even right up into Hampshire, in search o' zummet better.

So 'tis but natural that all sorts of tales should go the rounds about
Farmer and his horses; and one there is that no man can afford to miss.

One fall, a good many year agone, Farmer rode away to Pack-Monday Fair
'pon a smart upstanding bay cob going by the name of Harkaway: rising
three, a wur, so far as I can call to mind, and had a terrible tender
mouth. Trade had been slack for some time a-past, so Farmer vowed and
swore that come what mid, much as a loved the horse, he 'ud chop en away
and come back wi' a fat pocket to boot. So, as you can understand, the
parish wur agog to zee what should come o't.

Farmer started off the minute morning milking wur done, so as to be back
in good time to zee to the cows in the afternoon.

Sure enough, about three o'clock Farmer dashed up through parish 'pon a
girt powerful raw-boned black horse, and drew rein in front of the 'Pure
Drop.' In next to no time, you mid be sure, Farmer had the makings of a
tidy liddle crowd about en.

"A glorious day, my sonnies!" cried Farmer, calling for a drop o't.
"Chopped Harkaway for thease, lookyzee; and drawed-well, I ben't apt to
boast, so I won't zay how much! " And Farmer tapped his burches-pocket.

"Do look a good enough hoss," drawled the wold Levi Viney-father to
Solomon that is now-as a edged up handy to run his eye over'n. "Run a
liddle to bone, midbe."

"Run, dost zay!" said Farmer, looking down from his saddle into their
faces. " Run! I tell 'ee, 'run' is no word for thease hoss! A do sail! A
do vlit droo the air like a very skeer-devil! In fact, the speed o'n is
zummet remarkable.

There, Farmer looked the picture of content, as a took a pull at the
cup.

"Jump, can ur, Farmer? " enquired the wold Levi, not willing to gie in
so easy-like. "Sim t' I, 'tidden much spring about en."

Jump! " cried Farmer, opening his eyes so wide as saucers " Jump, di'st
ray! Co! " He reached down his cup to Levi. Here, hold thease cup."

Farmer gied the horse a liddle "Chik!" touched en with his knee, and in
a flash he wur athirt road and up over the vive-bar gate into Jeremy
Creed's paddock, like a sky-rocket. Once into paddock, Farmer started to
gie a regular exhibition wi' en: lifted en over hedge into Farmer
Tazwell's Ten-acres; rent en all round ground like a streak o' greased
lightning then back over hedge into paddock and dazzed if a didden wind
up by clearing the river into Farmer Perrott's Daisymead, and then back
into paddock! There, everybody did allow 'twur better than any Horse
Show or Point-to-Point that had ever been zeed thik way; and by the time
Farmer wur droo wi' it, most o' the volk in parish wur to be found in
Jeremy Creed's paddock. If Jeremy had only had the wit to charge 'em
zixpence a head gate-money, a 'ud ha' made the price of a tidy calf out
o't.

'Tis a horse from the French war, lookyzee," said Farmer, cantering back
and pulling up among the volk. "In the cavalry, a wur; and if you do
look at his off vore-voot, down handy the fetlock, you'll zee the wale
of a Prussian zword-cut."

Zoo 'tis, souls," said the wold Levi, who wur of a doubting turn o' mind
and croopied down to look. "Dazzed if the man don't speak truth! The
wale is plain for all to zee."

"Thik wale," Farmer went on, "is his onlyblemish, and the hoss is in his
prime. 'Vull o' spirit. Gie en a yew oats, and there'll be no holding
o'n."

There, Farmer had a liddle to zay about thik horse; and by the time a
wur droo wi' his second cup the parish knowed a good deal about en.

But not all. Oh no, not all.

Vall-teacher is the name o'n," said Farmer. "That's what a's called in
his own native tongue. And if a idden a regular skimmer, then dog bite
me! Shot up out o' Sherborne and down over Whitepost Hill without
turning a hair!"

But Farmer's vain-glory wur foreordained to come to a sudden end. There
wur a most curious experience in store for en, if a had but knowed, as a
zot there up in zaddle, spouting to the parish. To put it into a
parable, the train wur there, all ready laid, and only waiting for the
spark. And the spark wur put to the train all through the wold Levi
Viney.

Presently, in the midst of his zong o' praise, Farmer caught sight o'
the wold Levi, staring hard at Vall-teacher's hind legs.

"Well, Levi," he asked, " not satisfied yet? Terrible hard to please,
ben't 'ee?"

"Farmer," said Levi, " 'tis the last thing in the wordle I should wish
to do, to pull another man's hoss to pieces. Midbe I do make a
mistake--'tis to be hoped I do--but I really sim--" The wold Levi stood
back and shut one eye to make sure. "Ees, I really sim thik hoss is just
the leastest bit inclined to be bend-hocked."

Now that roused Farmer, being a kind of reflection on his judgment. So
Farmer got so red as a turkey-cock; plimmed all out like a cat in a
corner; and bu'st off at Levi like a clap o' thunder:

"Bah!" a roared out, so mad as a rafted bull.

Midbe you've noticed that Farmer, in his talk, do stop his shards and
vill out his meanings wi' two words, special to hiszelf: "Pooh!" and
"Bah!" Well, a do use 'em in much the same way as another 'ud use a good
round cuss-word, especially when his feelings be worked up.

So out comes Farmer wi' a "Bah! " that could be heard all up droo
parish. He had it in mind to zay a good deal more-- but Vall-teacher
didden gie en time.

The moment the word wur out of his mouth, the horse valled down like a
stone, zame as if a'd been shot!

Co! Then there wur a tidy upstore! "Run for doctor!" cried one. "Shoot
the hoss!" called another. "Vetch a vet!" hollied a third. And 't wur
told afterwards that one or two did screech out "Vier!" and run for
buckets of water. But that midden he altogether true.

In the thick of it all, the wold Levi stood out and took command.
"Zomebody zit 'pon his head, and keep en down," a said, "while we do
pull Farmer off."

"So the wold Mother Pamela Tucker, the heftiest 'ooman in parish, wur
called upon to quot down 'pon Vall-Teacher's head, while a vew o'm did
help Farmer out.

When they wur satisfied that Farmer wur none the worse for the fall, the
parish formed a ring round the horse, wi' the wold Mother Pamela Tucker
'pen his head, and started to stud out what to do next.

"'Tis a stroke!" said one.

"Or a terrible strong hoss-stinger!" said another.

"'Tis my belief a's witched!" said a third.

And some thought the horse wur dead; although others vowed that when
Mother Tucker plumped down upon en a gied just the leastest sign of a
quirk. So most volk came round to think that 'twur a kind o' zwodder
that had suddenly come over en-- zummet in the line of a fainting-fit,
lookyzee. Then one or two o'm got astride en, and started to rap, and
pinch, and poke; and 'twurden long before all the parish wur doing
zummet or other wi' en.

And the wold horse bode quiet droo it all: didden so much as whisk his
tail.

Then, as luck would have it, the wold Levi broke the spell. "'Tis my
belief," a said, in his slow, drawling way, "that the hoss is
chink-backed."

Now that, when you do come to think it over, wur so good as calling
Farmer a fool, for no man that would go and buy a chink-backed horse
could be much better.

So Farmer went just about mad wi' Levi.

"You girt, dathering, nog-headed gnaw-pwost, you!" blared Farmer, wi' a
voice like a vog-horn. Dost think I can't tell a chink-backed boss when
do zee en!" Farmer shook up his vist at en, and took a deep breath.

"Pooh! " he let out, taking a step towards Levi, "if doessen--"

But Farmer never finished his threat; for no sooner wur thik "Pooh!" out
of his mouth than up sprang Vall-teacher, so sprack and nimble as ever,
sending the wold Mother Pamela Tucker and a regular shower o' t'othermy
vlying off in all directions. Brushed 'em off like a zwarm o' vlies.
Then a gied a liddle whicker, and looked across at Farmer as if he'd
a--done zummet to be terrible fess about.

"Dear me! dear me! What a remarkable occurrence!" came a voice from
behind; and, turning round, the parish zeed that Pa'son had come on the
scene and witnessed the last act o't.

"I hope and trust," said Pa'son, in his mild way, "that no cruelty is
being practised upon this poor animal."

At that, Farmer Pomeroy up and explained the whole matter to Pa'son,
right from the first going-off, and assured en that if any cruelty had
been practised 't had been upon he his ownzelf when his leg wur pinned
to the ground in under the horse.

"What did you state to be the name of this remarkable animal?" asked
Pa'son, when Farmer had done.

"Vall-teacher," said Farmer. "That wur the name the man gied en. 'Tis in
the native tongue of the hoss, to be sure."

"Ah yes," said Pa'son. "Vall-teacher-----Voltizhoor--which signifies,
translated into the English tongue: a leaper, a jumper."

"And a capical name vor'n! " said Farmer, slapping his hand upon his
thigh. "Capical!" he shouted, as all the horse's good points came back
to mind. "Bah!" he bu'st out. "There idden--"

But Farmer's loud boast wur nipped in the bud. Without the ghost of a
warning, Vall-teacher dropped hike stone, and lay like a hog 'pon the
grass.

" Dear me!" said Pa'son, hopping back in a fright. "What a remarkable--I
might indeed say, extraordinary--animal!"

"Ezackly how a wur tookt afore, Pa'son." explained Farmer, wi' the
parish close-handy, looking and listening, all eyes and ears. "Levi
here, see, must needs try to pick a fault in the hoss and say a wur
bend-hocked; and I, a bit rafted-like, as you mid well think, turned to
en and zaid: "Bah! Levi." "Bah! Levi," I zaid, meaning to go on and zay:
"What dost thee know about a hoss!" and midbe a vew more thoughts o' the
zame kind--when, at the very vust word, down goes the hoss like a
stone!"

"Ah!" said Pa'son, pricking up his ears. "You said 'Bah!' and the horse
collapsed?"

"Valled like a stone! Ees, Pa'son."

"Yes, yes," said Pa'son, "the horse fell like a stone. But when did it
fall like a stone? It fell like a stone as you uttered the word 'Bah!':
is that not so?"

"Ees, ees, Pa'son," agreed Farmer, reddening up a liddle. "A harmless
enough word. No harm meaned nor intended by the word, Pa'son. Not a
ba'dy word in any sense of the term. A good, harmless, useful word."

"Quite so," said Pa'son. "But the word, although inoffensive, as you
suggest, possesses a significance-- a meaning--of which you are
unaware."

"Then I shall be glad to apologise, Pa'son," said Farmer, in his manly,
outspoken way. "No harm at all."

But Pa'son had his eyes fixed 'pon the horse. "I am now about to call
upon this animal--known to us under the name of Voltizhoor-to arise,"
said Pa'son, speaking in the calm, level tone a did keep in the ordinary
way for numbers of hymns and notices of mothers' meetings.

Co! At that, the parish stared at Pa'son in just about the same way as
if a'd said a wur going to call for a earthquake or order a
thunderstorm! A whindling liddle thing of a man like that, not able to
tell a back-strap from a blindhalter, to talk about calling upon
Vall-teacher to arise! Why, the man wur a sight wuss off than Balaam!

Pa'son stepped up handy the horse's head, took a goodish breath, and
hollied out one word: "Pooh!"

In a twinkling, wold Vall-teacher hopped up, gied a liddle whicker,
whisked his tail, and cast a pleased look round at the gathering!

"Bah!" screeched out Pa'son; and the horse went down like a house o'
cards, wi' his legs all a-strout.

"Pooh!" Up again, my sonnies, like a Jack-in-the-box!

Well, now, if parish didden begin to think that Pa'son had escaped from
a circus before a joined the Church! Pa'son looked round 'pon 'em all,
his eyes beaming and sparkling through his glasses.

"You observe," he said, "a striking proof of the correctness of my
deductions. The horse is French. It has been in the cavalry. It
collapsed at the command 'Bah!' which translated into our own tongue,
signifies 'Down!'; and at the ejaculation 'Pooh!', meaning 'Up!' or
'Arise!', the animal stood erect. Doubtlessly then, my friends, We see
before us a horse trained in accordance with certain usages of the
French cavalry, to lie down or remain erect at will."

Bezuggers, if Pa'son didden make a name for hiszelf out o' that! Church
packed every Zunday for weeks and weeks afterwards; not a seat to be had
anywhere, so I've heard more than one say. Volk called it a triumph of
scholarship and learning, that Pa'son should be able to stroll along in
his quiet, far-away manner and unmask a trick-horse that had puzzled the
wit of Farmer John Pomeroy and the whole parish to boot.

'Twur all glory for Pa'son, no doubt, but for Farmer John Pomeroy 'twur
liddle short of a misfortune to find that a coulden use his favourite
mild cuss-words--or ejaculations, as Pa'son called 'em--without running
the risk of a sudden upset, wi' his horse 'pon top o'n! Ees, in the end,
Farmer found that either Vall-teacher must go, or he must use
straight-out ba'dy words; and being a mild-mannered man, wi' a careful
upbringing, Farmer zold the horse.

Here's the pronoun table:

                      Subject         Subject       Object
                      statement       question

1st Pers. Sing.       I               I/us          I/us/me

2nd Pers. Sing.       thee            (thee)        thee/ee

3rd Pers. Sing. Masc. he/a            ur            en

3rd Pers. Sing. Fem.  she/ur          she/ur        ur/she

3rd Pers. Sing. Neut. he/she/a/it     en/ur/it      en/ur

1st Pers. Plural      we/us           we/us         we/us

2nd Pers. Plural      you             ee            ee

3rd Pers. Plural      they            em            em

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 21 21:46:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:46:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.21 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.144624.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

     (1) New Subscribers
     (2) Rules and Guidelines
     (3) New Team Member

Dear Lowlanders,

(1) NEW SUBSCRIBERS

First of all I would like to welcome those among you who joined us very
recently.  They come from the following places:

   Canada (Toronto, Ontario [2])
   Belgium (Antwerp)
   England (Nottingham, Nottinghamshire; Prudhoe, Northumberland)
   France (Palhès)
   Hong Kong
   Iran (Tehran)
   Italy (?)
   Moldova (Chishinau)
   Netherlands (Groningen, Groningen; Hoorn, Noord-Holland)
   Scotland (Ayr, Ayrshire)
   South Africa (Barberton, Mpumalanga; Howick, KwaZulu-Natal;
      Wynberg, Cape Town)
   Turkey (Fethiye, Mugla)
   USA (Acampo, California; Des Moines, Iowa; Lexington,
      Massachussetts; New York, New York; North Charleston, South
      Carolina; Seattle, Washington [2]; Waverly, Iowa)

And one person chose not to disclose his location.

(2) RULES AND GUIDELINES

I need to remind everyone that the rules and guideline for subscription
and posting ought to be read by everyone and can be found here:

     http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html

The most common errors in posting submissions are still (1) forgetting
to give one's name, and (2) not crediting those to whom one responds.

Quite a few former subscribers have been rejoining us lately.  Some of
them had been automatically "bumped off" by the server due to repeated
mail bouncing.  Some of them had feared that I had unsubscribed them
because they had been "lurkers," i.e., had not participated in
discussions.  Please keep in mind that I would never do such a thing,
that I value all subscribers equally.  There is no anti-lurking rule.
While I am delighted about participation, I totally respect people's
right and choice not to participate, and I would never want them to feel
forced to participate, nor would I compromise lurkers' privacy by
exposing their identities unless I had their permission.

(3) NEW TEAM MEMBER

I am very happy to announce that Mathieu van Woerkom
(Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl) has joined the Lowlands-L team.  So
far, Sandy Fleming has been taking over the running of the List during
my absence, and Ted Harding and Ian Parsley have been waiting in the
wings just in case neither Sandy nor I can attend to business.

Mathieu will be, actually already has proven to be, an enormous asset to
the team in more ways than one.  He had been very helpful and a driving
force long before he was "instated" officially.  Mathieu has the right
combination of zest and linguistic as well as technical know-how to help
if need be and to take on special projects (as he is right now, as
mentioned under "Resources" to appear shortly).

So, thanks, Mathieu, and thanks, Sandy, Ted and Ian!

Thanks to everyone!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 21 22:58:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:58:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.21 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.155830.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 21.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

The special project I mentioned today under "Administrativa" in
connection with Mathieu van Woerkom is ... yes, "Project Blurb."
Mathieu has become something of a "blurb meister" in the meantime, and a
darn good one at that.

For those of you who joined us later or do not remember, the plan is to
put short introductory pieces about the various Lowlands language
varieties on the Web.  Mathieu was the first to answer the call by
sending me an introduction to Limburgish in Dutch, English, German and
French, and Gary Taylor was a close second by writing about his native
Estuary English as a "sub-blurb" under "English."

Mathieu has taken over the creation of the blurb pages.  So far I have
seen only the beginning of it, and it promises to be just splendid,
putting me and my little web pages to shame.  You will be pleasantly
surprised when you finally get to see the pages.

At this point I must hand a huge kudos also to Roman Laryushkin.  Roman
has been extremely helpful and supportive with ideas and suggestions and
with Russian and Ukrainian translations.  He has been a real gem.
Thanks, Roman!

I am also involved in "Project Blurb," have been doing some translating
and have been helping to iron out some initial kinks, also have been
converting Roman's Cyrillic text into a format that does not require
most visitors to change their browsers' encoding mode.  I am supposed to
come up with an introductory blurb to Low Saxon (Low German).  Help
would be appreciated.

We really cannot proceed much farther for lack of material.  So I am
appealing to you to consider writing introductory blurbs about your
language varieties, not necessarily your native ones but also non-native
ones with which you are well acquainted.  You could write them singly or
in teams.  If you plan to write one, it might be a good idea to ask
other people in your field if they are planning to write one too, and
you might do something in the way of collaboration.  These main blurbs
do not have to be literary gems, nor do they need to be long.  In fact,
briefer is better.  They should (*briefly*) cover all or most of these
aspects:

   Genealogical classification (language family/group)
   Area (geography)
   History
   Number of speakers (or estimate)
   Status
   Public Services
   Education
   Media (including literature)
   (And any other subject)

Also, I agree with Roman who suggested that we have small language
samples as illustrations.

The plan is that these (brief) main blurbs will appear in these
languages: English, German, Dutch, French, Russian, Ukrainian (just
because of the nature of the team: Mathieu (Nijmegen, Netherlands;
Roman, Simferopol, Ukraine; Ron, Seattle, Washington, originally from
Hamburg, Germany).  I can handle the German and English translations but
would appreciate help, at least input, would not be the least bit
offended if you corrected my compositions or translations.  So, for
these "main blurbs" we need volunteer writers and volunteer
translators.  Especially needed is someone who can proficiently
translate the main blurbs into French.  I would like to add Spanish and
would really appreciate some help with that, at least help with cleaning
up my own far less than perfect Spanish.

So much for the "main blurbs."  Then there are the "sub-blurbs."  These
can be anything in any style, like essays that are linked to from the
main blurbs (like Gary's is from the English blurb).  They may or may
not be translated (though translations would *always* be welcome).  So
here is an opportunity to write little pieces about your local or
favorite dialects or dialect groups, or about any related aspect you
like.  No, they do not have to be deadly serious.  Humor and
lightheartedness are fine as long as they do not render your
descriptions disrespectful.  They do not have to be written in English.
Chances are that someone will be able to translate your blurb, and we
would always post the original version anyway, no matter what language
it is written in.

Please send the texts to me (sassisch at yahoo.com).  I will send them
through the "blurbification" process.

So, huge, big thanks go to Mathieu and Roman, also to all of you who are
willing to help us in some ways, big or small.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 22 20:11:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:11:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.131119.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sachsen780 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.21 (05) [E]

"He!"

Steve is from Arizona, USA.

[Steve Feld]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 22 20:13:15 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:13:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.06.22 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.131315.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (04) [D/E/French]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Help needed
>
> Patricia,
>
> I am not sure anybody is really knows how far back the story of the
> naughty fox goes.  There is also a Middle Low Saxon (Low German)
> version, from the time at which the international Low-Saxon-speaking
> Hanseatic Trading League was at the pinnacle of its power.  The oldest
> surviving edition I am aware of is _Reynke de vos_, printed in Lübeck
> (*the* Hanseatic center) in 1498.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Dear Ron,
Speaking of 'Hanseatic' centers...
Brugge (E Bruges) is one of the cultural city's in 2002. I have seen
already
some splendid exhibitions , like the one over the  Flemish primitives
and
Van Eyck. I think there is really one event that can interest the people
of
the 'lowlands' who happen to be in the region.
It is called "Brugge, wisselmarkt van culturen". Brugge was in the 14th
and
15th  century the most cosmopolitical city north of the Alps. It was the
meeting point between the  Nordic Hanzecity's and Southern Europe.And
now
there is an exposition about that history.
You can look for some explination at: HANZE at M€DICI.COM
The exhibition is in three places and around the town: The provincial
house,
the saaihalle (next to  the house of the 'Van der Beurze's' who gave
their
name in many languages for stock-exchange -because they were the first
to do
so- and hof Bladelin ,the former bank of the Medici's. There is also a
exact
copie of a medieval crane.
The exhibition is in cooperation with 'Nordrhein-Westfalen. You can
visit it untill the 8th of september.

Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 22 20:15:02 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:15:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.22 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.131502.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.19 (03) [D/E]

> From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Beste Luc, dear all
>
> As Marco once wrote, the use of the word "Flemish"
> sometimes is very confusing... and i'm sorry, but i
> don't understand very well what you mean by the words
> "Flemish" and (or versus??) "Dutch" in your mail.
Dear Frank,
In the lowlands there were a lot of tribes who were settled some two
millenniums ago.Tacitus mentiones 'Kelten' and 'Germanen'(He mixes them
up a
bit) in Western-Europe, three century's before the big migrations.A few
century's later we speak of 'Franken, Saksen, Friezen, Angelen...'.Dutch
grew as a conglomerate of all these tribe-languages, with the south
regions
(Frisia, later Flanders(that's an other story)) being the
center.Therefore
Flemish is for me the language of the historical Flanders from
'Bonen'(Boulogne-France) to Zeeuws-Vlaanderen. When I look at the
earliest
words i find them much closer related to my Flemish than to Dutch.With
'Vlaams' having so meany meanings it is indeed preferable to call the
language 'Nederfrankisch' or even better 'Noordzeewestgermaans (NWG).
>
> <<<There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's
>
> a big one in a number of volumes).<<<
>
> I meant a contemporary one :).
>
> <<<What we need is an early Dutch (early Flemish)
> dictionnary. You may call it also a Franconian
> dictionnary<<<
>
> Why would we need that? The MNW already exists...
No no no, It does not. I am speaking of a dict. of the early periods,
lets
say from Roman times till 1200! I find it very strange that it doesn't
exist
yet:
-I've been reading  a French etymological dict. and found a lot of
words(+/_400) of  Franconian origin of that early period (or Flemish or
early-Dutch or High & Low German, they mix it a lot without much
specifications). I am convinced that these 'French' words give us the
oldest
words for our NWG.
-Lex Salica(509-511)is written in Latin during the reign of Chlodovech
(Clovis is a later French translation) There are only copies left.
But there are Franconian words and sentences in it to elucidate the
laws.
The most famous word is 'Mallobergo (=maalberg=D: gerechtsplaats)
-Gregorius van Tours (Loire), 6th century,speaks in his famous book over
the
Franks, that he wants to translate his speeches into the language of the
people (theodisc= Diets= early NWG ?)
-Early English and NWG are quiet similar to me. When i look into the
Webster's dict. i discover a lot of times that they can not cope with
the
correct nominating, finding out that this old English is still very much
like my 'modern' Flemish speaking.
> A quote from the digitalized version (*my stresses*):
> "Het elektronische boek dat op de cd-rom met het icoon
> MNW aangeduid wordt, biedt de elektronische versie van
> deel 1 tot 9 van het Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek.
> Deze negen delen bevatten het eigenlijke woordenboek
> en beschrijven *grosso modo* de woordenschat van het
> Nederlands uit de periode *1200-1500*, zoals het
> gebruikt werd in de gebieden die *grotendeels*
> samenvallen met het huidige Nederland en Vlaanderen.
> Elke betekenis en elke betekenisnuance wordt steeds
> geïllustreerd met één of meer citaten uit de
> Middelnederlandse teksten die door de samenstellers
> van het MNW als bron voor het woordenboek geselecteerd
> werden."
>
> What do you mean by "early Dutch" and "early Flemish"
> and how do you distinguish between them, on which
> linguistic and or historical grounds?
> Why would we need a Franconian dictionary and how do
> you see the relation between Franconian and what you
> call "early Dutch" and (versus?) "early Flemish"?
>
> <<<Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'?
> Scientists say it is in Middle High German, but for me
> it could also be a Flemish variant because I can still
> read it (without having had any instructions around
> that subject)!<<<
>
> "Ludwigslied" (+/- 882) is written in OLD High German
My mistake, of corse 'OLD'!
> (Rein Franconian). There are some very good reasons
> for *linguists* to call it "Old" and "High German",
> but these criteria (the most important one being the
> second or High German sound shift) of course have
> nothing to do with you understanding the text.
> You're right in a certain way, in the same way a
> German could say that Old or Middle Dutch reminds
> him/her of a German variant.
This sound shift is a very significant one. But is the sentence
structure
not as much important?
By the way, i think imho that Europe was populated with all kinds of
different tribes who lived close to one another without mixing very
often
(thus the meany different names). Perhaps they had their specific
languagerules also. High and low German will have exist next to one
another.
Some rules are very strict. One of the caracteristics of the early Dutch
language is that the last vowel became a sjwa. But those changes, after
hundreds of years, are not yet finished! In Flanders we still say
something
between the two: Vaodre-vaodri (E Father) beste-besta (E best)
sterke-sterka
(E Strong) rike-rika (E rich).
"Ludwigslied" should be mentioned as early High German but also as NWG
or
early Dutch. This is also right for "Hildebrandslied-Gudrun-Van
Veldeke's
books-and even Beowulf being Old English or Old NWG.
>
> <<<dialects?? Languages you mean! Flemish was the
> cultural language, and a big part of the early Dutch
> arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
> standard language afterwards.<<<
>
> No, i meant "dialects" :). Without wanting to
> (re)start a discussion about the terms "dialect" and
> "language", which imho is a pseudo problem anyway, i
> just meant something as "language variant" without any
> social, attitudinal or cultural evaluation.
> But again, i find it very difficult to understand what
> you mean by "Flemish" and "early Dutch". Could you
> please explain a bit further.
For meany people 'dialect' is something pejoratif. Only the official
languages are 'correct' for them. That's why we (lost)loose  so many
'dialects' in the 20th and 21th century's.I know meany Flemish families
who
do not want to talk Flemish anymore.
>
> <<<In West Flanders we...<<<
>
> Luc Vanbrabant??? What's in a name? ;):))
Brabant was a very common name, not only in Brabant itself. It just
means
'broekband' or the border near the brook (marsh).

Misschien was ik al iets duidelijker, maar stof voor discussie is er
zeker
nog genoeg.Wat ik schreef zijn vooral persoonlijke gedachtespinsels,
gebaseerd op historische zaken maar eigenzinnig benaderd,zeker geen
evangelie!

Groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant ;)
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 22 20:29:53 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:29:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.132953.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>
Subject: Expressions

Luc Hellinckx asked for translations of 16 sentences, here they are for
Limburgish (L)

1)
Het was koud deze morgen (D)
It was cold this morning (E)
Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
't Was kaat te merreget (M)
't Was koud vanmorge (Z)
It wis cauld this mornin (S)

't waor kaud huujmörge (L)

.....
2)
IJs, water, vuur en zon (D)
Ice, water, fire and sun (E)
Eis, Wasser, Feuer und Sonne (G)
Ies, waeter, vier en zunne (Z)
Ice, lowe an sun (S)

Ies, water, vuur en zón (L)

.....
3)
Een grauw gelaat (D)
A grey face (E)
Ein graues Gesicht (G)
E graat gezicht (M)
Een graeuw wezen (Z)
A grey face (S)

E grauw/krauw/bleitsetig gezich (L)

.....
4)
Het is zonde ! (D)
It's a sin ! (E)
Es ist (eine) Sünde !(G)
't Es sunne !(M)
't Is zonde! (Z)
It's a sin ! (S)

't is zunj! (L)

.....
5)
Volgend jaar (D)
Next year (E)
Nächstes Jahr (G)
't Noste jaar (M)
Kommende jaer (Z)
Nixt year (S)

volgenden/naeksten jaor (L)

.....
6)
Achter je rug (D)
Behind your back (E)
Hinter deinem Rücken (G)
Achter a rug (M)
Achter je rik (rikke) (Z)
Ahint yer back (S)

Achter diene rök (L)

.....
7)
Vader en moeder (D)
Father and mother (E)
Vater und Mutter (G)
Voor en mojjer (M)
Vaoder en moeder (Z)
Faither an mither (S)

Vajer en mojer / pap en mam (L)

.....
8)
Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
Neben der Toilette (G)
Neuvest 't euske (M)
Neffen 't 'uusje ('onderd, 't gemak, 't toilet, etc.) (Z)
Aby the bathroom (S)

Naeve 't prevaat/twalèt/gemaak (L)

.....
9)
De deur stond op een kier (D)
The door was ajar (E)
Die Tür war angelehnt (?) (G)
De deu stond op een gerre (M)
De deure stoeng op een garre (Z)
The door wis ajee (S)

De deur sjtóng op e keerke (L)

.....
10)
Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
Three girls and six boys (E)
Drei Mädchen und sechs Jungen (G)
Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
Drie meissen en zes joengers (Z)
Three lassies an sax laddies (S)

Drei maetskes en zès jónges (L)

.....
11)
Broer en zuster (D)
Brother and sister (E)
Bruder und Schwester (G)
Bruur en zuster (M)
Broer en zus (Z)
Brither an sister (S)

Broor en zöster (L)

.....
12)
Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
A big house with twelve maids (E)
Ein großes Haus mit zwölf Diensmädchen (G)
E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
Een groôt 'uus mee twaolf (twelf) meiden (Z)
A muckle hoose wi twal maids (S)

E groet hoes mit twelf deensmaeg/dörpelmaeg (L)

.....
13)
Ik was het eerste kind (D)
I was the first child (E)
Ich war das erste Kind (G)
Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
Ik was 't eêste kind (Z)
A wis the first bairn (S)

Ich waor 't ie(ë/r)ste kèndj (L)

.....
14)
De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
The second or the third wife ? (E)
Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
't Twidde of derde wuuf? (Z)
The saicont or third wife? (S)

't twiede of 't driede vroumes? (L)

.....
15)
Een man en een vrouw (D)
A man and a woman (E)
Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
Een vint (kaerel) en een wuuf (vrommes) (Z)
A man an a wumman (S)

Eine/'ne man en ei/e vroumes (L)

.....
16)
We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
We went swimming (E)
Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
Me zen weste zweummen (M)
Me è wiste zwemme (Z)
We wis awa for a soom (S)

Veer zeen zjwömme gegange (L)

.....

Regards,
Mathieu van Woerkom

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (06) [E]

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]
>
> Luc asked to translate some sentences so I translated
> them in Zeeuws, more specific the dialect of the isle
> of Walcheren, below.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marco

Hello,
These are the West-Flemish variants:

>> 1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
>> It was cold this morning (E)
>> Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
>> 't Was kaat te merreget (M)
>
> 't Was koud vanmorge
't Was koud vannuchtend (FL)
>
>> 2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
>> Ice, fire and sun (E)
>> Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
>
> Ies, waeter, vier en zunne
Is, waotre, vier en zunne (FL)
>
>> 3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
>> A grey face (E)
>> Ein graues Gesicht (G)
>> E graat gezicht (M)
>
> Een graeuw wezen
een grouw wezen (aonzichte)(FL)
>
>> 4) Het is zonde ! (D)
>> It's a sin ! (E)
>> Es ist (eine) Sünde !(G)
>> 't Es sunne !(M)
>
> 't Is zonde!
't Is zonde ! (FL)
>
>> 5) Volgend jaar (D)
>> Next year (E)
>> Nächstes Jahr (G)
>> 't Noste jaar (M)
>
> Kommende jaer
't Naoste jaore (FL)
>
>> 6) Achter je rug (D)
>> Behind your back (E)
>> Hinter deinem Rücken (G)
>> Achter a rug (M)
>
> Achter je rik (rikke)
bachten (achter) je rugge (rik) (FL)
>
>> 7) Vader en moeder (D)
>> Father and mother (E)
>> Vater und Mutter (G)
>> Voor en mojjer (M)
>
> Vaoder en moeder
vaodre en moedre (FL)
>
>> 8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
>> Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
>> Neben der Toilette (G)
>> Neuvest 't euske (M)
>
> Neffen 't 'uusje ('uusje 'onderd, 't gemak, 't toilet, etc.)
neffenst 't useke (de W.C. , 't gemak) (FL)
>
>> 9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
>> The door was ajar (E)
>> Die Tür war angelehnt (?) (G)
>> De deu stond op een gerre (M)
>
> De deure stoeng op een garre
De deure stond up e gerre (FL)
>
>> 10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
>> Three girls and six boys (E)
>> Drei Mädchen und sechs Jungen (G)
>> Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
>
> Drie meissen en zes joengers
Drie meiskes en zes joengs (drie meisjoengs en zes knechtjoengs) (FL)
>
>> 11) Broer en zuster (D)
>> Brother and sister (E)
>> Bruder und Schwester (G)
>> Bruur en zuster (M)
>
> Broer en zus
broere en zustre (FL)
>
>> 12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
>> A big house with twelve maids (E)
>> Ein großes Haus mit zwölf Diensmädchen (G)
>> E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
>
> Een groôt 'uus mee twaolf (twelf) meiden
Een groôt uus me twaolf maarten (FL)
>
>> 13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
>> I was the first child (E)
>> Ich war das erste Kind (G)
>> Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
>
> Ik was 't eêste kind
'k Was 't eêste kind (FL)
>
>> 14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
>> The second or the third wife ? (E)
>> Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
>> Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
>
> 't Twidde of derde wuuf?
't twide of 't derde wuf (de twidde of derde vrouwe) (FL)
>
>> 15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
>> A man and a woman (E)
>> Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
>> Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
>
> Een vint (kaerel) en een wuuf (vrommes)
ne vint en e vroemins (vrouwmens) (e man en e vrouwe) (FL)
>
>> 16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
>> We went swimming (E)
>> Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
>> Me zen weste zweummen (M)
>
> Me è wiste zwemme
Me zin gaon zwemm' (M'ein gaon zwemm')(Me zin wist gaon zwemm')(FL)

Groeten
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: expressions

I will add Northumbrian to this 'interesting' list -

1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
It was cold this morning (E)
Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
't Was kaat te merreget (M)
It wis cauld this mornin (S)

I'd wes caad (or cowld) this-mornin (N)

2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
Ice, fire and sun (E)
Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
Ice, lowe an sun (S)

Ice, fiyah, end surn (N)

3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
A grey face (E)
Ein graues Gesicht (G)
E graat gezicht (M)
A grey face (S)       (but what does this mean?
                       What is a "grey face"?)

Aa greye fyace (n)

4) Het is zonde ! (D)
It's a sin ! (E)
Es ist (eine) Snde !(G)
't Es sunne !(M)
It's a sin ! (S)

Id's a sin! (N)

5) Volgend jaar (D)
Next year (E)
Nchstes Jahr (G)
't Noste jaar (M)
Nixt year (S)

Next yeor (N)

6) Achter je rug (D)
Behind your back (E)
Hinter deinem Rcken (G)
Achter a rug (M)
Ahint yer back (S)

Ahind ya back (N)

7) Vader en moeder (D)
Father and mother (E)
Vater und Mutter (G)
Voor en mojjer (M)
Faither an mither (S)

Faatha an mutha (N)

8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
Neben der Toilette (G)
Neuvest 't euske (M)
Aby the bathroom (S)

Next tu thi netty (N)

9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
The door was ajar (E)
Die Tr war angelehnt (?) (G)
De deu stond op een gerre (M)
The door wis ajee (S)

Thi door wes ajar (n)

10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
Three girls and six boys (E)
Drei Mdchen und sechs Jungen (G)
Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
Three lassies an sax laddies (S)

Three gorls an six lairds (N)

11) Broer en zuster (D)
Brother and sister (E)
Bruder und Schwester (G)
Bruur en zuster (M)
Brither an sister (S)

Brutha an sistah (N)

12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
A big house with twelve maids (E)
Ein groes Haus mit zwlf Diensmdchen (G)
E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
A muckle hoose wi twal maids (S)

Aa greet (or muckle) hoose wi twelve maids (N)

13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
I was the first child (E)
Ich war das erste Kind (G)
Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
A wis the first bairn (S)

Aa wes thi forst bairn (or kiddah) (N)

14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
The second or the third wife ? (E)
Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
Yhe saicont or third wife? (S)

Thi secund o' thi thord wife? (N)

15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
A man and a woman (E)
Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
A man an a wumman (S)

Aa man an aa womin (N)

16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
We went swimming (E)
Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
Me zen weste zweummen (M)
We wis awa for a soom (S)

We went swimmin (N)

Gan Canny

Glenn Simpson

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 23 19:28:58 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:28:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.23 (01) [F/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.122858.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 23.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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=======================================================================
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]

> From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
> Subject: Inquiry
>
> Beste leeglanners,
>
> I have tried to compose a list of words and expressions that might
> enable us to see basic similarities and differences between our Lowlands
> languages. I deliberately chose words that are both very "universal" but
> that could yet at the same time be interesting in order to oppose
> certain dialects.
> The same 16 expressions have been translated in Dutch, English and
> German, as well as in my local Brabantish, more specifically a version
> that was spoken in Merchtem during roughly the 20th century.
> Sociologically, it could be called "plat-Merchtes" (M).
> If only each subscriber would be willing to translate this in his/her
> dialect (along the dotted line), I'd be very grateful.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Luc Hellinckx

In tafoeging yn Westerlauwersk Frysk, sa folle moolk
"standertfrysk". Der moat fansels keazen wurde by dit soarte fan listkes
(hokker fariant ast nimst), miskien dat oare Friezen oare farianten
keazen
hiene,
ik sil sa u't en troch sels farianten jaan dy't ek moolk binne..

> 1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
> It was cold this morning (E)
> Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
> 't Was kaat te merreget (M)
> .....
It wie ka^ld fan 'e moarn. (WF)  [a^ = a with a circonflex accent on
top..]

> 2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
> Ice, fire and sun (E)
> Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
> ..
Iis, fjoer en sinne.   (WF)
...
> 3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
> A grey face (E)
> Ein graues Gesicht (G)
> E graat gezicht (M)
> .....

In skier/grau oantlit/we^zen. (WF)

> 4) Het is zonde ! (D)
> It's a sin ! (E)
> Es ist (eine) Sünde !(G)
> 't Es sunne !(M)
> .....
It is skande! (WF)


> 5) Volgend jaar (D)
> Next year (E)
> Nächstes Jahr (G)
> 't Noste jaar (M)
> .
oar jier/ takom jier (WF)

....
> 6) Achter je rug (D)
> Behind your back (E)
> Hinter deinem Rücken (G)
> Achter a rug (M)
> .
Efter dyn re^ch/ re^ge. (WF)

....
> 7) Vader en moeder (D)
> Father and mother (E)
> Vater und Mutter (G)
> Voor en mojjer (M)
> .....

Heit en mem (WF)

> 8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
> Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
> Neben der Toilette (G)
> Neuvest 't euske (M)

Ne^st / neist it hu'ske (WF)
[u' = u with accent to the right, sounds here as [y])

> .....
> 9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
> The door was ajar (E)
> Die Tür war angelehnt (?) (G)
> De deu stond op een gerre (M)
> .
De doar stie yn 't tsier  (WF)

....
> 10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
> Three girls and six boys (E)
> Drei Mädchen und sechs Jungen (G)
> Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)

Trije famkes en seis jonges  (WF)

> .....
> 11) Broer en zuster (D)
> Brother and sister (E)
> Bruder und Schwester (G)
> Bruur en zuster (M)

Broer en suster (WF)

> .....
> 12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
> A big house with twelve maids (E)
> Ein großes Haus mit zwölf Diensmädchen (G)
> E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
>
In grut hu^s mei tolve (tsjinst)fammen (WF)

 .....
> 13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
> I was the first child (E)
> Ich war das erste Kind (G)
> Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
> .....
Ik wie it earste bern (WF)

> 14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
> The second or the third wife ? (E)
> Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
> Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
> ..
It twadde of tredde wiif?
[now less common, or:]
De twadde of tredde frou? (WF)

...
> 15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
> A man and a woman (E)
> Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
> Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
>
In man en in frou/frommiske (WF)
 .....
> 16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
> We went swimming (E)
> Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
> Me zen weste zweummen (M)
> .
Wy hawwe te swimmen west  (WF)

Henno Brandsma
....

----------

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject:

Beste leeglanners,

First of all I would like to sincerely thank everybody who sent his/her
translation of my list...the response has been very, very nice so far !
Keep it going folks ! I'll add a detailed reason later on, about how and
why this list was created...
Oh yes, "a grey face" is actually the face of a person with skin that is
not looking very pale *s*...people who are a little sick sometimes have
such a face. Or also people who are old and have strong beard-growth. It
also helps if you spent a lot of time out in the sun during your
lifetime I guess. I might be wrong but I also think Jewish people often
have skin that is looking pretty "grey"...
In another context, the same Dutch word "grauw" is often used in
connotation with clouds and the weather when there's little light.
There's unfortunately also an expression like : "Ik heb hem grauw en
blauw geslagen", which means "That you have hit him so badly that he
turned blue and 'grey'"
That's it for now (I have to spend my internet-time carefully on this
island where there's only a satellite-phone connection with the mainland
*s*).
Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Expressions

Luc,

Although I did not say anything at the time and literally translated
what you gave us, I was as bewildered by "grey face" as Sandy was.  So
thanks for your explanation.

I don't think that "grey" (~ "gray") would be the appropriate
translation in either case.  I suppose that, seen from a Germanocentric
point of view, people in, say, Mediterranian areas, are usually said to
have "olive skin/complexion."  As for the complexion of ill or elderly
people, perhaps "ashen" comes closer to what you mean, which allows
somewhat for natural shades (i.e., it could be "ashen" in various
shades), and might be considered the opposite of "radiant [= healthy]
(skin/complexion)".  These are just my suggestions.  In German it may be
_dunkelhäutig_ (which could be *any* shade darker than "white") and
_(asch)fahl_ ~ _aschgrau_ respectively.  In Low Saxon you may get away
with _gries_ ~ _grau_ ("gray") within clearly defined contexts, though I
am not sure.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 23 21:54:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:54:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.23 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.145414.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Expressions"

> From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
> Subject:
>
> Oh yes, "a grey face" is actually the face of a person with skin that is
> not looking very pale *s*...people who are a little sick sometimes have
> such a face. Or also people who are old and have strong beard-growth. It
> also helps if you spent a lot of time out in the sun during your
> lifetime I guess. I might be wrong but I also think Jewish people often
> have skin that is looking pretty "grey"...

So in English this would be "An ashen face", as Ron suggested.

In Scots it would be "A fauchie face".

"Fauchie" describes a washed-out pale-looking grey or yellow
colouration.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 23 23:00:20 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:00:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.160020.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Some of you may be interested to know that the Institut für
Niederdeutsche Sprache (Institute for Low German Language) now has a
(German-language) bibliography online:
http://www.is-bremen.de/vns/ndb.htm

The bibliography is "Low German" (_Niederdeutsch_) in the sense of
traditional linguistic classification, covering both Low Franconian
(i.e, _Niederländisch_ "Dutch," "Netherlandic") and Low Saxon (i.e.,
_Niederdeutsch_) ... or ... almost so.  Let's take a closer look!

As you can see, we got ourselves into a bit of a muddle here.

To start with, while all areas of (Low(lands)) Saxon are covered,
neither Modern Dutch nor Old Franconian are covered, _Niederländisch_
being limited to _Mittelniederländisch_ ("Middle Netherlandic/Dutch")
and, peculiarly, _Ostneuniederländisch_ "Eastern Modern Netherlandic"
... Why?  And what on earth is _Ostneuniederländisch_ supposed to refer
to?  Could it be ... No! ... a quasi-admission that
_Ostneuniederländisch_ is a part of what I and others call "Low Saxon"
(or better "Lowlands Saxon," to follow Sandy Fleming's suggestion),
ideally just "(Modern) Saxon", a cross-border connection hitherto
studiously avoided in the INS's publications?

But wait!  There's more!  We find two categories: "Ostneuniederländisch"
and "Ostniederländisch/Nedersaksisch"!  All right!  So, what's the
difference between the two?  Let's take a look at the respective
bibliographic lists.  Hmmm ... Both of them contain references to works
on Low Saxon of Drenthe, Gelderland, Twente, Groningen, ... in short,
the "Saxon varieties of Netherlandic," the ones some claim are related
to "Low German" or ... Heaven forbid! ... part of the same language.
What's the difference between the two categories?  None, as far as I can
tell.

So, again we see Dutch (!) _Nedersaksisch_ used instead of German
_Niedersächsisch_.  Assumedly, this is to avoid misunderstandings.
_Niedersachsen_ refers to the German state of Lower Saxony, and most
uninitiated German readers might think it is confined to that state.
_Sächsisch_ ("Saxon") does not seem to be considered an option because
it refers to the "Middle"- and "High"-German-speaking (i.e., non-Saxon)
German state of _Sachsen_ (Saxony) that acquired its name because it had
at one time been given to a prince of (real, Saxon-speaking) Saxony.
(You see, we North Germans are widely considered to have too low an
average intelligence quotient to deal with changes and distinctions
regarding names and orthography the way the select degreed few are able
to.)  Yes, what a muddle, what a mess we got ourselves into during
centuries of trying to change people's perceptions for the sake of
nationhood!

But let's look on the bright side: it could be seen as progress, a half
full glass, that there is any mention at all to this
"Ostniederländisch/Nedersaksisch," whose eastern borderline just happens
to coincide *exactly* with the northern part of the Netherlands-German
border.

Will we dare to take another step or two in this direction?  Will we
dare to go as far as thinking about creating a common orthographic
system that would facilitate reading comprehension across the now all
but invisible political border?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 24 03:36:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:36:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.23 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.203627.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.23 (02) [E]

on 24/6/02 7:54, Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] wrote:-
> Subject: "Expressions"
>
> So in English this would be "An ashen face", as Ron suggested.
>
> In Scots it would be "A fauchie face".
>
> "Fauchie" describes a washed-out pale-looking grey or yellow
> colouration.

In the Edinburgh area I am sure they still refer to such a complexion as
'Peelie Wahlie'. Thanks for reminding me of this Sandy.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."

>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 24 22:41:26 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:41:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.154126.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: I cannae git it richt!

Greetings,

could any of you help me out with a - possibly slightly humorous - Scots
translation of "Yes, that's what I have always said" or "Yes, that's
what
I've said all along"? I am translating something into English where one
person says this in broad Bavarian, and so I think broad Scots would be
a
guid equivalent. I would give it a try myself, but I'm not sure how
"authentic" I can make it.

Thanks very much!
Gabriele Kahn

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 04:43:57 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:43:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.214357.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Help needed"

> From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
> Subject: I cannae git it richt!
>
> Greetings,
>
> could any of you help me out with a - possibly slightly humorous - Scots
> translation of "Yes, that's what I have always said" or "Yes, that's
> what
> I've said all along"? I am translating something into English where one

A straightforward translation would be:

"Ay, that's what A'v aye sayed."

A slightly humorous translation:

"Ay, like A'v no sayed that afore."

This second one means, "Yes, as if I haven't said that
before".

For a slightly less grammatical feel, "sayed" could be
replaced with "says" in both cases.

Or you could resort to irony:

"Div ye tell me that?"

But, being irony, the meaning may not come through clearly in print.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

[English below]

Liebe Lowlanders,
   Wie Ihr wisst, arbeiten wir momentan an kurzen Enführungen in die
"Lowlands-Sprachen" (unter dem Titel "Lowlands Talk"). Es sollen auch
kurze Sprachproben dabei sein. Für die verschiedenen nordfriesischen
Sprachvarianten stehen glücklicherweise kurze, einsätzige Proben bereit,
die das Nordfriisk Instituut (Nordfriesische Institut,
http://www.nordfriiskinstituut.de/) online ausstellt, und zwar aus
Theodor Storms Kinderbuch _Häwelmann_ (*siehe Links unten). Ich würde
gern auch saterfriesische und westerlauwer-friesische Übersetzungen
hinzufügen.
Stehen diese bereits zur Verfügung? Auf jeden Fall wäre ich Euch ganz
besonders dankbar, wenn Ihr mir die entsprechenden Übersetzungen
zuschicken würdet (sassisch at yahoo.com). Es wäre natürlich auch schön,
wenn wir davon auch Übersetzungen in die anderen
Lowlands-Sprachvarianten hätten. Falls Ihr den Namen _Häwelmann_ nicht
übernehmen wollt, bedenkt bitte beim Übersetzen, dass _Häwelmann_
(_Hevelmann_) -- hier der Name eines ungeduldigen, nie zufriedenen
Jungen -- auf Niedersächsisch (Niederdeutsch) so etwas wie
"entzückender, kleiner Junge/Liebling" bedeutet (von _häweln_ ~ _heveln_
'(ein Baby oder Kleinkind) verhätscheln und mit Spielen unterhalten').
Bitte bedenkt auch, dass dies nicht die einzigen Sprachproben sein
werden, und dass wir uns freuen würden, wenn Ihr uns auch andere *kurze*
Sprachproben zuschicken würdet.
   Unten findet Ihr die nordfriesischen Fassungen, nebst der deutschen
Originalfassung und meinen übersetzungen ins Nordniedersächsische und
Englische, auch Vorschläge, die Hilfe benötigen.
   Ich möchte Euch auch noch daran erinnern, dass wir noch nach
Freiwilligen für die französischen und möglicherweise spanischen
Fassungen dieser *kurzen* Einführungen suchen.
   Herzlichen Dank!
   Reinhard/Ron

***

Dear Lowlanders,
   As you know, we are currently working on brief introductions to the
"Lowlands" languages (under the title "Lowlands Talk"). We will add
small language samples. Fortunately, there are small North Frisian
samples already, supplied online by the Nordfriisk Instituut (North
Frisian Institute, http://www.nordfriiskinstituut.de/), taken from
Theodor Storm's _Häwelmann_. I would love to add Sater Frisian and
Westerlauwer Frisian versions. Do such translations already exist? In
any case, I would be most grateful to you for sending me translations of
this passage, also in other Lowlands variants. If you wish to substitute
for rather than adopt the name _Häwelmann_, please bear in mind that
_Häwelmann_ (_Hevelmann_) -- here the name of an impatient, never
satisfied boy -- means something like 'cute, little darling boy' (from
Low Saxon (Low German) _häweln_ ~ _heveln_ 'to pamper and entertain (a
small child)'). Apparently, there is an English translation entitled
_Little Hobbin_, but I have not seen it.
   Please also bear in mind that these will not be the only samples,
that we would be delighted to receive other *brief* samples in various
Lowlandic varieties.
   You will find the North Frisian versions below, along with the German
original and my Northern Low Saxon and English translations, plus some
drafts that need help.
   I would also like to remind you that we are still seeking volunteers
who would create French and hopefully also Spanish versions of these
*brief* introductions.
   Many thanks!
   Reinhard/Ron

* http://www.babsies.de/maerchenland/haewelmann.html

***

German (original?):
"Leuchte, alter Mond, leuchte!" schrie Häwelmann, aber der Mond war
nirgends zu sehen und auch die Sterne nicht; sie waren alle schon zu
Bett gegangen.
(Theodor Storm: _Häwelmann_)

Mainland North Frisian of Hoorning (Goesharde):
"Jocht, uule moune, jocht!" biilked Hääwelmoon, ors e moune waas närngs
to schüns än da steere ok ai; ja weern al aal to beede gingen.

Mainland North Frisian of Bökingharde:
"Jucht, üülje moune, jucht!" biiljked Hääwelmoon, ouers e moune wus
nargne tu schüns än e stääre uk ai; ja wjarn ål åltumååle tu beed lim.

Mainland North Frisian of Wiedingharde:
"Ljocht, uuile moone, ljocht!" biilked Hääwelmuon, män e moone was
näärgen to schüns än uk e steere ai; jä würn al altomoale to beerd
gingen.

North Frisian of the Tideland Islands (_Halligen_):
"Jaacht, uale mööne, jaacht!" bölked Hääwelmoon, man de mööne woas
näärngs to siinen än de steere uk ee; jä weern al altomaole to beed
giangen.

Insular North Frisian of Heligoland:
"Lochte, ool Muun, lochte!" rüp Heäwelman, oawers de Muun wear naarni tu
sin'n en uk de Steern ni; dja wear al allemoal tu Baad gingen.

Insular North Frisian of Amrum:
"Locht, dü ual muun, locht!" rep Heewelmaan, man a muun wiar nochhuaren
tu sen an a stäären uk ei; jo wiar al altumaal tu baad gingen.

Insular North Frisian of Föhr:
"Locht, ual muun, locht!" rep Heewelmaan, man a muun wiar nochhuaren tu
sen an a stäären uk ei; jo wiar al altermaal tu baad gingen.

Insular North Frisian of Sylt:
"Ljucht, ual Muun, ljucht!" skriilt Häwelmann, man di Muun wiar narigen
tö sen en uk di Stiaren ek; ja wiar al altermaal tö Ber gingen.

***

Meine Übersetzungen | My Translations:

Northern Low Saxon (Low German):
"Lücht, ole Maand, lücht!" schreeg' Häwelmann, man de Maand was narms to
sehn un ook de Steerns nich; se weern al alltohoop na'n Bedd gahn.

Tentative:

Westerlauwersk Frysk (Help!):
"Lykje, âlde moane, lykje!" skreaude {Häwelmann}, mar de moane wie
nearne ta sjen, ek e stjerren net; hja binne al alegeare ta bêd gongen.

Dutch (Help!):
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuw {Häwelmann}, maar de maan was
nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al alle te bed gegaan.

Afrikaans (Help!):
"Skyn, ou maan, skyn!" skreeu {Häwelmann}, maar die maan was nêrens te
sien nie, ook nie die sterre nie; hulle was al algar te bed gegaan.

Scots (Help!):
"Sheen, auld Muin, sheen!" skreelt {Wee Hobbin}, bit the muin wis naewey
ti be seen, the starns nae aither; thae'd aw gane tae bed awready.

English:
"Shine, old Moon, shine!" Little Hobbin screamed, but the moon was
nowhere
to be seen, the stars not either; they had all gone to bed already.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 15:55:26 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:55:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.085526.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

Many thanks to Sandy, that "hit the spot"!!

I should make two little alterations in the Dutch Häwelmann translation:

Dutch (Help!):
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuw {Häwelmann}, maar de maan was
nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al alle te bed gegaan.

I think it should be "schreeuwde" (or, maybe, rather "gilde"), and
"allemaal naar bed gegaan".

As to the translation for the name "Häwelmann", I can at least readily
provide the last three letters: "-tje"! :-)

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

Dutch (Help!):
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde {Häwelmann}, maar de maan was
nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al allemaal naar bed
gegaan.

Sallands low saxon (holland, near zwolle city) Sombody do it better
please...
Skijn olde ,moane, skijn dan! Skreeuwde Oavelman, moar de Moane was
narngs
te sien, en de starn oak niet, se laang allemoalle al op bedde.

W!M  w.k.verdoold   wkv at home.nl

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

Ron asked for translations of a passage from _Häwelmann_.
I added a translation in Zeelandic (Isle of Walcheren) below.
In stead of just copying the Low Saxon name, I came up with
_Kokkelvintje_ in stead. _Kokkel_ being both the Zeelandic
word for 'darling' (particularly used for children) as for the cuddly
toy (sometimes just a cloth) a child cannot sleep without. The
verb _kokkele(n)_ means 'to cuddle a child'. _Vintje_ stands for
'little man' (boy). I'm open for other suggestions than this _Kok-
kelvintje_.
I am howeever convinced that especially when translating tales like
this, names should be translated as well.

Zeelandic of the isle of Walcheren:
"Schient, ouwe maene, schient!" schreêuwden Kokkelvintje, mae de
maene was nergest nie te zieen, ok de starren nie; ze waere aollegaere
a naè bedde gegae.

Then Ron's translation in Dutch:

> Dutch (Help!):
> "Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuw {Häwelmann}, maar de
> maan was nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al alle te
> bed gegaan.

I think this should/could be:
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde {Häwelmann},
maar de maan was nergens te zien, de sterren ook niet, ze
waren allemaal al naar bed gegaan.

I can't think of a good translation of _Häwelmann_ in Dutch
right now... Perhaps someone else can help?

Regards,
Marco
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>

Thanks, Gabriele, Wim and Marco!

So then how about this in Dutch?

"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde Hevelmannetje, maar de maan was
nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al allemaal naar bed
gegaan.

How about *_Koestermannetje_, _koesteren_, like _häweln_, implying the
range 'petting', 'pampering' and 'coddling', perhaps even 'cherishing'
(apparently Afrikaans _koester_).

How about this in Afrikaans?

"Skyn, ou maan, skyn!" skreeude {Hewelmannetjie/Koestermannetjie}, maar
die maan was nêrens te sien nie, ook nie die sterre nie; hulle was al
almal bed toe gegaan.

Thanks again for your help, everyone.  I particularly like your
_Kokkelvintje_, Marco.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 16:03:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:03:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.25 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.090324.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Reasons for the creation of my list

Beste leeglanners,

A word or "two" about the list with the 16 items that I composed earlier
on.
After being involved in "language-matters" for over 20 years now
(although I'm a mathematician professionally), I thought it was time to
study language in a somewhat different perspective.

I mean, here in Belgium, during the second half of the twentieth
century, a lot of scientific effort has gone into research of the
vocabulary of what are called "vaktalen". These are forms of language
that are spoken by people exercising jobs that were (or are) on the
brink of extinction. People weaving baskets, making ropes, blacksmiths,
and so on. Even folks breeding race pigeons *s*. I fully understand that
this work had priority as many of these "handicrafts-people" were (very)
old and after their death their language would surely expire too. This
study however results in what I would like to call "peculiarism"
("particularisme" in Dutch). Of course the outcome of these inquiries
often showed an enormous variety of words for one single subject. This
could be expected because :
1) regularly some tiny piece of equipment or part of a device is
concerned
2) the devices themselves have been changing continuously and thoroughly
throughout history (being intricately linked to cultures and societies
that even in the olden days were subject to political and economic
forces of course).
So we got what we expected, thousands of words that boosted a lot of
people's feelings of "uniqueness".
I would like to reverse the point of view, instead of zooming in on say
a community of thatchers in Stuivekenskerke, I'd like to zoom out
(geographically speaking). That's why I like this Lowlands-forum so
much, it broadens my horizon.
At the same time I was interested in words that are somehow
"transcendental". With this, I mean : unrelated to any specific society
or time in history. And so I had to bring "numbers" in of course. Many a
(Germanic) dialect never gets any more abstract than this *s*. I can
hardly believe for example that words and pronounciation for "one",
"two", "three" are easily and significantly changed. Thus, they must
reflect an old stage of any language, I assume. One old counting system
was not decimal by the way but rather based on 5 multiples of 12 (making
60). Off the record :
1) the old divide between centum- and satem-languages in Indo-European
looks a little artificial in this respect
2) reading Dickens here in Thailand (don't laugh *s*, I couldn't get
hold of anything better), I was amazed to see that he still wrote "three
and twenty" for example instead of modern "twenty-three"...he also
writes : "Go away", said he, whereas nowadays it would be "Go away", he
said.
Other "universal" words are those that describe basic family relations,
so I wanted to include those as well.
But actually I'm explaining you my query backwards now *s*.
You see, what still puzzles me tremendously is the use of diphtongs in
our Lowlands-languages. Let me give you two examples : the words for
"house" and "ice" (I also deliberately didn't choose any loan-words
because they obey different rules). In Middle Dutch they were usually
written "hu(u)s" and
"i(e)s", I believe. Bear in mind though that in the period 1100-1450 the
county of Flanders was utterly dominant in every way, which (partly)
explains this orthography.
During the 15th century, power shifted eastwards and more and more these
words get spelled as "huys" and "ijs".
It's hard to believe that in the old "Meierij Overzenne" for example
(roughly Brabant west of the river Zenne...not by accident the place
where this most inspiring professor Blanquaert grew up *s*), in the run
of the 15th century common people actually started pronouncing these
words (slightly) differently. Writing language and actual speech of
medieval peasants and citizens are two different systems, I gather.
Fortunately, a thing or two can be deducted by studying
rhyming-schemes...however, is this method completely fool-proof ?
Every word that I chose has its own reason why it was selected but it
would lead me much too far to reveal them right now (I hope scholars
will immediately notice why I chose them).
Moreover, I'm on this cycling trip now from Chengdu (China) to Singapore
and I cannot spend more time behind a computer screen (unfortunately
*s*).
I hope this sheds a little more light on the creation of my list.
Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

"God is too big to fit inside just one religion"

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 16:50:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:50:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2002.06.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.095034.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: Numbers!

Dear Ron / Lowlanders

It was with great interest that I read the letter of Luc Hellinckx and
his
various expressions, and also the responses that his letter generated.

With the same aim in mind as Luc, that is to choose universal words that
highlight the subtle differences between the lowlands languages, I have
decided to compile a list of numbers, as these words are generally quite
similar.

I have so far translated this list into English, Dutch and German, but
my
knowledge of Frisian and Low Saxon is presently far from complete so I
will
need some help from the other members in preparing this table.

      ENGLISH    FRISIAN       DUTCH         LOW SAXON     GERMAN

1     one        ien           een           een           eins
2     two        twa           twee          twee          zwei
3     three                    drie          dree          drei
4     four                     vier                        vier
5     five                     vijf                        fuenf
6     six                      zes           zoess         sechs
7     seven                    zeven                       sieben
8     eight                    acht                        acht
9     nine                     negen                       neun
10    ten                      tien                        zehn
11    eleven                   elf                         elf
12    twelve                   twaalf        twoelf        zwoelf
13    thirteen                 dertien                     dreizehn
14    fourteen                 veertien                    vierzehn
15    fifteen                  vijftien                    fuenfzehn
16    sixteen                  zestien                     sechzehn
17    seventeen                zeventien                   siebzehn
18    eighteen                 achttien                    achtzehn
19    nineteen                 negentien                   neunzehn
20    twenty                   twintig                     zwanzig
30    thirty                   dertig                      dreissig
40    forty                    veertig                     vierzig
50    fifty                    vijftig                     fuenfzig
60    sixty                    zestig                      sechzig
70    seventy                  zeventig                    siebzig
80    eighty                   tachtig                     achtzig
90    ninety                   negentig                    neunzig
100   hundred                  honderd                     hundert

Please feel free to modify the list as required, particularly with
regard to
tranlsation into those languages which I may have failed to mention. As
can
be seen, there are many omissions. My apologies to the Dutch population
if I
have missplet the words for 14 and 40 but I was in a rush and did not
have
time to double-check these. Apologies also for the omission of umlauts
and
accents, this is not intentional but I have not worked out how to
include
these from hotmail.

Regards
David Elsworth.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Numerals

Here you go, David.  Below is the amended list with German items
properly "diacriticized" and the Low Saxon (Northern Low Saxon (Low
German)) and Westerlauwer Frisian columns completed.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: See also http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml

     ENGLISH    W.FRISIAN     DUTCH       LOW SAXON      GERMAN

  1  one        ien           een         een            eins
  2  two        twa           twee        twee           zwei
  3  three      trije         drie        dree           drei
  4  four       fjouwer       vier        veer           vier
  5  five       fiif          vijf        fiev/fief      fünf
  6  six        seis          zes         söss           sechs
  7  seven      sân           zeven       söven          sieben
  8  eight      acht          acht        acht           acht
  9  nine       njoggen       negen       negen          neun
 10  ten        tsien         tien        tein           zehn
 11  eleven     alve          elf         ölven          elf
 12  twelve     tolve         twaalf      twölf          zwölf
 13  thirteen   trettjin      dertien     dörtein        dreizehn
 14  fourteen   fjirtjin      veertien    veertein       vierzehn
 15  fifteen    fyftjin       vijftien    föftein        fünfzehn
 16  sixteen    sechstjin     zestien     sösstein       sechzehn
 17  seventeen  santjin       zeventien   söventein      siebzehn
 18  eighteen   achttjin      achttien    achtein        achtzehn
 19  nineteen   njoggentjin   negentien   negentein      neunzehn
 20  twenty     tweintig      twintig     twintig        zwanzig
 30  thirty     tritich       dertig      dörtig         dreissig
 40  forty      fjirtich      veertig     veertig        vierzig
 50  fifty      fyftich       vijftig     föftig/fieftig fünfzig
 60  sixty      sechstich     zestig      sösstig        sechzig
 70  seventy    santich       zeventig    söventig       siebzig
 80  eighty     tachtich      tachtig     tachentig      achtzig
 90  ninety     njoggentich   negentig    negentig       neunzig
100  hundred    hûndert       honderd     hunnerd        hundert

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 17:08:38 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:08:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.25 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.100838.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.25 (01) [E]

Ron asked:

> So then how about this in Dutch?
>
> "Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde Hevelmannetje, maar de maan was
> nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al allemaal naar bed
> gegaan.
>
> How about *_Koestermannetje_, _koesteren_, like _häweln_, implying the
> range 'petting', 'pampering' and 'coddling', perhaps even 'cherishing'
> (apparently Afrikaans _koester_).

I prefer _Koestermannetje_ rather than _Hevelmannetje_,
allthough I must say that _Koestermannetje_ does sound
very artificial. However, at this moment I don't have any
better suggestions... Anyone?

regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 17:33:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:33:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.103316.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2002.06.25 (03) [E]

>It was with great interest that I read the letter of Luc Hellinckx and
>his
>various expressions, and also the responses that his letter generated.
>
>With the same aim in mind as Luc, that is to choose universal words that
>highlight the subtle differences between the lowlands languages, I have
>decided to compile a list of numbers, as these words are generally quite
>similar.

I'm afraid this might be self-evident, but I can't help wondering if a
standard Swadesh list is available for Lowlands languages. It would be
very much in line with what a lot of people here seem to be doing.

By the way, Ron, what on earth happened to my posting about the "horse
sound"? Did anybody consider it irrelevant or did it just get lost
somewhere on the way?

Regards,
Leonard Okhotchinski

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Numerals

Dear Leonard,

I don't remember getting your submission about horse sounds, and I can't
find it anywhere.  Sorry.  :(  Can you resend it?

Excellent idea, the Swadesh list, Leonard!  Thanks!  I am not aware of
there being a comparative "Lowlandic" one, but it should be easy enough
to create one, should sufficient help be forthcoming.  I can provide the
Northern Low Saxon (Low German) and German items.  Additions in any
varieties or sub-varieties would be welcome.  It would be great to
eventually add this to our "language exhibit."

Everyone, below please find the raw list, just Swadesh's basic list of
100 words, minus the special additions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

###: ENGLISH -
001: I, me -
002: you -
003: we -
004: this -
005: that -
006: who -
007: what -
008: not -
009: all -
010: many -
011: one -
012: two -
013: big -
014: long -
015: small -
016: woman -
017: man -
018: person -
019: fish -
020: bird -
021: dog -
022: louse -
023: tree -
024: seed -
025: leaf -
026: root -
027: bark -
028: skin -
029: flesh -
030: blood -
031: bone -
032: grease / oil -
033: egg -
034: horn -
035: tail -
036: feather -
037: hair -
038: head -
039: ear -
040: eye -
041: nose -
042: mouth -
043: tooth -
044: tongue -
045: claw -
046: foot -
047: knee -
048: hand -
049: belly -
050: neck -
051: breast(s) -
052: heart -
053: liver -
054: to drink -
055: to eat -
056: to bite -
057: to see -
058: to hear -
059: to know -
060: to sleep -
061: to die -
062: to kill -
063: to swim -
064: to fly -
065: to walk -
066: to come -
067: to lie (down) -
068: to sit -
069: to stand -
071: to say -
072: sun -
073: moon -
074: star -
075: water -
076: rain -
077: stone -
078: sand -
079: earth -
080: cloud -
081: smoke -
082: fire -
083: ash -
084: burn -
085: path -
086: mountain -
087: red -
088: green -
089: yellow -
090: white -
091: black -
092: night -
093: hot, warm -
094: cold -
095: full -
096: new -
097: good -
098: round -
099: dry -
100: name -

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 18:24:59 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:24:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.112459.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.25 (04) [E]

I like Koestermannetje better, too, but it still doesn't seem quite
"it".
Maybe we could borrow "Berendbotje" from the Dutch children's song:
"Berendbotje ging uit varen met z'n scheepje naar Zuidlaren...", or at
least
come up with something similar. Another adventurous youngster, even if
he
never makes it there...

Greetings,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language samples

Following Leonard Okhotchinski's suggestion, I have put online a copy of
the Swadesh list of 100 assumedly basic words (used in comparisons) with
Northern Low Saxon equivalents already entered.

     http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

Please follow the instructions given there.

Thanks.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 22:43:36 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:43:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.25 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.154336.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language varieties"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Germanic, but the Germanic settlers in Britain referred to themselves as
> Saxons and Angles.  How can the close relationship between English (and
> Scots and Northumbrian) and Frisian be reconciled with the ethnonyms,
> and why are Frisians hardly ever mentioned?  Let's be wild and speculate
> that those who strongly Frisianized the Early English language were
> mostly Frisian women (attached to predominantly male Saxons, Angels and
> Jutes en route from their native places to Britain).  Has any of this
> ever been explored?

Isn't it possible that the Angles and Saxons were the ruling
classes and yet Frisian became the most influential language
in Britain? Perhaps different kingdoms had communication
difficulties and Frisian was the lingua franca for diplomacy?
We've seen how in the case of Shetlandic, Cornish and Scots a
language that's perceived as more respectable or useful (maybe
even just "trendy") can become the language of a new generation,
especially in populous areas.

Another possibility (not necessarily mutually excusive with the
above), is that once Germanic kingdoms were established in Britain,
Frisians came over to fill some sort of skills vacuum as tradesmen
and suchlike, the native Brythonic trades not offering the sort of
things the Anglo-Saxon rulers were accustomed to? Then some sort of
Frisian pidgin might develop, which became the basis of a somewhat
more united Germanic language.

Perhaps Frisians were ever-present but simply aren't mentioned in
British history because they didn't set up a kingdom there.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 23:35:13 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:35:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.163513.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]

> Everyone, below please find the raw list, just Swadesh's basic list of
> 100 words, minus the special additions.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ***
Here are the Flemish variants:
>
> ###: ENGLISH -  Flemish
> 001: I, me -    ik(kke)- mie- me
> 002: you -      je- you-gi
> 003: we -       we- wiedre
> 004: this -     dad'ier
> 005: that -     dat doar-dadde
> 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin
> 007: what -     wa(dde)
> 008: not -      niet(ten)
> 009: all        ol-ollemolle
> 010: many -     vele veel
> 011: one -      iïn
> 012: two -      twiï
> 013: big -      groat
> 014: long -     lank-lange
> 015: small -    smal(E narrow)  klein(e)
> 016: woman -    vrouwmens-vrouwe
> 017: man -      man vent
> 018: person -   persoin
> 019: fish -     vis(sel)
> 020: bird -     veugle
> 021: dog -      (h)ond
> 022: louse -    luze
> 023: tree -     boam
> 024: seed -     zaod
> 025: leaf -     loaf
> 026: root -     wortle wortels
> 027: bark -     schorse
> 028: skin -     vel
> 029: flesh -    vliïs
> 030: blood -    bloed
> 031: bone -     boane
> 032: grease / oil - vet/olie
> 033: egg -      ei
> 034: horn -     (h)oirne
> 035: tail -     steirt
> 036: feather -  vadre (vadri)
> 037: hair -     (h)aor
> 038: head -     (h)oifd
> 039: ear -      oire
> 040: eye -      oige
> 041: nose -     neuze
> 042: mouth -    mond
> 043: tooth -    tand
> 044: tongue -   tonge
> 045: claw -     klouw
> 046: foot -     voet
> 047: knee -     knie
> 048: hand -     (h)and
> 049: belly -    buik
> 050: neck -     nekke
> 051: breast(s) -borst(en)-bost
> 052: heart -    (h)erte
> 053: liver -    levre
> 054: to drink - drink'n
> 055: to eat -   et'n
> 056: to bite -  bit'n
> 057: to see -   zien
> 058: to hear -  oiren
> 059: to know -  kenn' wet'n
> 060: to sleep - slaop'n
> 061: to die -   doi goan- sterven
> 062: to kill -  doiddoen- vermoirden-kel'n
> 063: to swim -  zwemm'
> 064: to fly -   vlieg'n
> 065: to walk -  wandeln
> 066: to come -  komm'
> 067: to lie (down) - goan ligg'n
> 068: to sit -   zit'n
> 069: to stand - stoan
> 071: to say -   zegg'n
> 072: sun -      zunne
> 073: moon -     maone
> 074: star -     sterre
> 075: water -    waotre
> 076: rain -     rinne- reegne
> 077: stone -    stiïn
> 078: sand -     zand
> 079: earth -    eirde
> 080: cloud -    wolke
> 081: smoke -    rook
> 082: fire -     vier
> 083: ash -      asne
> 084: burn -     brand
> 085: path -     pad
> 086: mountain - berg
> 087: red -      rwod
> 088: green -    groene
> 089: yellow -   gilwe-geel
> 090: white -    wit
> 091: black -    zwart
> 092: night -    nacht
> 093: hot, warm -hiït warme
> 094: cold -     koud
> 095: full -     vul
> 096: new -      nieuw(e)
> 097: good -     goed
> 098: round -    rond
> 099: dry -      droge
> 100: name -     naome

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Help needed
> German (original?):
> "Leuchte, alter Mond, leuchte!" schrie Häwelmann, aber der Mond war
> nirgends zu sehen und auch die Sterne nicht; sie waren alle schon zu
> Bett gegangen.
> (Theodor Storm: _Häwelmann_)
> Meine Übersetzungen | My Translations:
> Dutch (Help!):
> "Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuw {Häwelmann}, maar de maan was
> nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al alle te bed gegaan.
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde (H), maar de maan was mergens te
zien, en de sterren ook niet; ze waren tesamen naar bed gegaan.
Flemish:
Skijn, oude maone, skijn!" skreeuwde(krischte/scriïmde) (H), moa de
maone
woas nievers te ziene, en de sterren aok niet; ze waren oltegoare
(olthope) naar bedde gegaon.
-For the (H) i would suggest in Flemish: 'kadulletje' or 'kakkernestje'.

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language samples"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Numerals
>
> Everyone, below please find the raw list, just Swadesh's basic list of
> 100 words, minus the special additions.

Will it never end, this mad lust for translations?  :)

I'm afraid I don't think this sort of thing always works
very well - for example, Scots has two words for "you" and
"one", verb and noun forms for "smoke" are different and so
on, with different semantics. Since there's no room to explain
the meanings, I've just put one word in each case.

> ###: ENGLISH - SCOTS
> 001: I, me - I, me
> 002: you - ye
> 003: we - we
> 004: this - this
> 005: that - that
> 006: who - wha
> 007: what - what
> 008: not - no
> 009: all - aa
> 010: many - mony
> 011: one - ane
> 012: two - twa
> 013: big - muckle
> 014: long - lang
> 015: small - smaa
> 016: woman - wumman
> 017: man - man
> 018: person - body
> 019: fish - fish
> 020: bird - bird
> 021: dog - dug
> 022: louse - looss
> 023: tree - tree
> 024: seed - seed
> 025: leaf - leaf
> 026: root - ruit
> 027: bark - bark
> 028: skin - skin
> 029: flesh - fleesh
> 030: blood - bluid
> 031: bone - bane
> 032: grease / oil - creish / ile
> 033: egg - egg
> 034: horn - horn
> 035: tail - tail
> 036: feather - feather
> 037: hair - hair
> 038: head - heid
> 039: ear - lug
> 040: eye - ee
> 041: nose - nose
> 042: mouth - mooth
> 043: tooth - tuith
> 044: tongue - tongue
> 045: claw - claw
> 046: foot - fit
> 047: knee - knee
> 048: hand - haun
> 049: belly - belly
> 050: neck - neck
> 051: breast(s) - breest(s)
> 052: heart - hert
> 053: liver - liver
> 054: to drink - tae drink
> 055: to eat - tae aet
> 056: to bite - tae bite
> 057: to see - tae see
> 058: to hear - tae hear
> 059: to know - tae ken
> 060: to sleep - tae sleep
> 061: to die - tae dee
> 062: to kill - tae kill
> 063: to swim - tae soom
> 064: to fly - tae flee
> 065: to walk - tae gang
> 066: to come - tae come
> 067: to lie (down) - tae lie
> 068: to sit - tae sit
> 069: to stand - tae staun
> 071: to say - tae say
> 072: sun - sun
> 073: moon - muin
> 074: star - star
> 075: water - watter
> 076: rain - rain
> 077: stone - stane
> 078: sand - sand
> 079: earth - yirth
> 080: cloud - clood
> 081: smoke - reek
> 082: fire - fire
> 083: ash - ash
> 084: burn - burn
> 085: path - peth
> 086: mountain - hill
> 087: red - reid
> 088: green - green
> 089: yellow - yellae
> 090: white - white
> 091: black - black
> 092: night - nicht
> 093: hot, warm - het, warm
> 094: cold - cauld
> 095: full - fou
> 096: new - new
> 097: good - guid
> 098: round - roond
> 099: dry - dry
> 100: name - name

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language samples

Thanks, folks, also Reuben Epp and Marco Evenhuis who sent me their
lists privately.

The updated list: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

> Will it never end, this mad lust for translations?  :)

:)  It'll fizzle out soon enough.  It's what in insider jargon is known
as "gathering and feeding frenzie," which tends to be short-lived.

Of course lists like these don't give you all that much information and
don't allow for semantic shifts and the like.  But it's good enough for
most people's entertainment.  I think these lists were initially
compiled for unknown languages in unknown cultures, supposedly
containing a selection of the most universal words.  If you ask me, it's
still a very Eurocentric selection, but since our area falls within this
center, a list of this sort isn't too bad.

Luc, "Kadulletje" sounds great to me!  Thanks for the translation.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 23:37:45 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:37:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.25 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.163745.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: erek gass <egass at caribline.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.25 (07) [E]

I'll draw your attention to the Jutes also, and the fact that the
various "old" Low Germanic and Nordic languages were still rather close
enough to allow some (even a great deal) of mutual comprehension.  Add
to that that Frisians WERE part of the contingent who came to England
settling largely (with their Continental neighbours, the Jutes and
Angles) in the Kent and East Anglia regions of Britain, and you probably
have the answer.  Frisian and English are astonishingly conservative in
some aspects (especially consonants) of their languages, and I've always
suspected that this rather than any other relationship has kept the tow
somewhat closer in appearance and sound than some of the other theories
I've heard advanced.

I'll bet there are others who see this differently, and I'd like to see
what the rest of you have to offer.

Erek

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 26 16:04:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:04:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.090431.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Ron

As said previously, Estuary does not contain many
dialectual differences from standard English, but here
are the pronunciations

###: ENGLISH - Estuary (Hopefully you can understand
the symbols I've used, ä = 'ash', @ = schwa, 6 = open
schwa, { is the long vowel in the same position as
schwa, t(s) is a slightly affricated t, N is the ng, E
and O are the open equivalents of the cardinals e and
o, and A is cardinal 5)
001: I, me - AI, mIi
002: you - jYy
003: we - wIi
004: this - DIs
005: that - Dä?
006: who - hYy
007: what - wO?
008: not - nO?
009: all - Uu
010: many - mEni
011: one - w6n
012: two - t(s)Yy
013: big - bIg
014: long - lON
015: small - smUu
016: woman - wUm at n
017: man - mä:n
018: person - p{:s at n
019: fish - fIS
020: bird - b{:d
021: dog - dOg
022: louse - läYs
023: tree - tSrIi
024: seed - sIid
025: leaf - lIif
026: root - rYy?
027: bark - bA:?k
028: skin - skIn
029: flesh - flES
030: blood - bl6d
031: bone - b at Yn
032: grease / oil - f@?, grIis, OIU
033: egg - Eg
034: horn - hUun
035: tail - täU
036: feather - fED@
037: hair - hE:
038: head - hEd
039: ear - Ii@
040: eye - AI
041: nose - n at Yz
042: mouth - mäYT
043: tooth - t(s)UuT
044: tongue - t6N
045: claw - klO:
046: foot - fY?
047: knee - nIi
048: hand - hä:nd
049: belly - bEli
050: neck - nE?k
051: breast(s) - brEst / brEsts
052: heart - hA:?
053: liver - lIv@
054: to drink - t(s)@dZrINk
055: to eat - t(s)YwIi?
056: to bite - t(s)@bAI?
057: to see - t(s)@sIi
058: to hear - t(s)@hIi@
059: to know - t(s)@n at Y
060: to sleep - t(s)@slIi?p
061: to die - t(s)@dAI
062: to kill - t(s)@kIU
063: to swim - t(s)@swIm
064: to fly - t(s)@flAI
065: to walk - t(s)@wUu?k
066: to come - t(s)@k6m
067: to lie (down) - t(s)@lAI
068: to sit - t(s)@sI?
069: to stand - t(s)@stä:nd
071: to say - t(s)@sEI
072: sun - s6n
073: moon - mUun
074: star - stA:
075: water - wUut(s)@
076: rain - rEIn
077: stone - st at Yn
078: sand - sä:nd
079: earth - {:T
080: cloud - kläYd
081: smoke - sm at Y?k
082: fire - fAI@
083: ash - äS
084: burn - b{:n
085: path - pA:T
086: mountain - mäYnt(s)In
087: red - rEd
088: green - grIin
089: yellow - jEl at Y
090: white - wAI?
091: black - bläk
092: night - nAI?
093: hot, warm - hO?, wuUm
094: cold - k6Ud
095: full - fUu
096: new - njYy
097: good - gYd
098: round - räYnd
099: dry - dZrAI
100: name - nEIm

Gary

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (08) [E]

Luc Vanbrabant wrote about the Swadesh list he
translated:

> Here are the Flemish variants:

Sorry to keep going on about this subject, but
shouldn't this be WEST-Flemish? Some people
already made clear that the name 'Flemish' is very
confusing in this respect.

Some of your translations look very interesting:

> > 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin

and then

> > 011: one -      iïn

As far as I know West-Flemish, in both these words
_jin_ or _iïn_ or (as I would spell it) _eên_ sound
exactly the same and stands for the same word, in
my spelling _eên_, 'one' (_wukeên_ can litterally be
translated as 'what one'). Am I wrong or is there
another reason that you chose these different spellings?

The same goes for the way you spell the West-Flemish
_oô_ (or as you spell it _oi_, _oa_ or _o_), e.g.:

> > 013: big -      groat
> > 023: tree -     boam
> > 039: ear -      oire
> > 040: eye -      oige
> > 099: dry -      droge

Are there any differences in the way the _oa_/_oi_/
_o_ in these words are pronounced? In Zeelandic and
the northern West-Flemish dialects I'm familiar with,
I would just spell these words as:

groôt
boôm
oôre
oôge
droôge

And then a potentially very interesting matter.
Zeelandic has a very clear opposition between _ae_
and _ao_-sounds. Some examples:

Zeelandic - English
straete - street
laeter - later
vaoder - father
klaover - clover

As you see, where Zeelandic has a more open a,
English has an open vowel as well. And where
Zeelandic has a more closed a, English has a
closed vowel as well. This is not always the case,
but there are many, many examples where it is.
Now Luc uses two different ways of spelling a,
what I understand to be, open a:

> 069: to stand - stoan
> 073: moon -     maone
> 036: feather -  vadre

The last one is probably a small mistake. I think
Luc translated 'father' in West-Flemish rather
than 'feather'. 'Feather' has to be something
like _pluume_ or _veêre_...
But I am interested in the different spellings
_a_ (_aa?_), _oa_ and _ao_. Is there really a
difference in the way these a's are pronounced?
And if there is, is there some kind of system in it?
I only know of a few dialects in the far south west
of French Flanders, that have basically the same
system as Zeelandic. That can be explained because
these villages are so far away from the centre-dialects
of West-Flemish that the so-called 'Brabantish expan-
sion' wasn't really 'felt' there. The Brabantish expan-
sion by the way, is the disappearance of a lot of
original ingvaeonic features in West- and even more
in East-Flemish in favour of linguistic features from
the economically dominant region of Brabant in
the 1400s.
Due to this Brabantish expansion, East-Flemish is
nowadays considered to be a Brabantish dialect and
West-Flemish has a lot of Brabantish features, where
Zeelandic has retained more ingvaeonic features (but
then again 'suffered' from Hollandic expansion later).

Another odd thing I found in the West-Flemish
version of Swadesh list:

> 002: you -      je- you-gi
> 045: claw -     klouw

In 002 the _ou_ is clearly pronounced as in
English 'you', but in 045 that can hardly be
the case, since all West-Flemish dialects I know
have an _au_ there (pronounced as in 'thou').

> 049: belly -    buik

Why not _buuk_? _Buik_ sounds very Dutch
or at least Brabantish ('boik'?) to me.
The same goes for _skijn_ in the West-Flemish
translation of the Häwelmann-fragment. Should
that not be _skien_:

"Skien, oude maone, skien!" skreêuwde Kadulletje,
mao de maone wos nievers te ziene, en de sterren
oôk nie; ze waren oltegaore naar bedde gegaon.

Because of this translation, I finally know where
Luc's village Oekene is situated ;-). It must be near
Kortrijk, since that is the only part of West-Flanders
where Dutch _sch-_ sounds as in English: _sk-_!

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks for the sample (above), Gary!  I had to compromise a bit in the
display, because most surfers do not yet have phonetic and Unicode
fonts.  Please let me know if it is too much of a compromise.

Thanks also to Rudi Vári who kindly supplied Dutch and Afrikaans
equivalents.

The list has been updated:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

Say, Gary, aren't [v] and [f] options for _th_ in Estuary English?  Or
is that considered sub-standard?

Marco responding to Luc's Flemish data:

> Some of your translations look very interesting:
>
> > > 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin

Did you notice Northern Low Saxon (Low German) _wokeen_ for 'who'?  It
is pronounced ['voUkE.In] or [voU'kE.In], often abbreviated to _keen_
[kE.In], especially as a conjunction, as for example in _Ik weet nich,
keen dat schreven hett_ 'I don't know who wrote it/that'.

This abbreviated _keen_ coincides with _keen_ [kE.In] 'none', 'no ...',
as in _Ik verstah keen Ingelsch_ 'I understand no English'.  However,
this does not usually cause confusion.  'No one' and 'nobody' tends to
be _keen een_ (often written _keeneen_) ['kE.In?E.In] ("no one").

A sentence like _Keen hett dat schreven?_ 'Who wrote it/that?' tends to
confuse semi-proficient German listeners who are not familiar with
_keen_ in place of German _wer_ and associate _keen_ with German
_kein(er)_ 'no (one)'.  They would interprete the sentence as German
_Keiner hat es/das geschrieben_ 'No one wrote it/that.'

Oftentimes I find elements in Flemish and Zeelandic that seem familiar
from a Lowlands Saxon point of view, elements apparently not found in
Standard Dutch.  I wonder if this is because (1) Standard Dutch somehow
lost these, or (2) it is due to Saxon migration to and thus influence on
the Flemish and Zeelandic areas.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 26 17:44:57 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:44:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.104457.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (01) [E]

Ron:

> Marco responding to Luc's Flemish data:
>
> > Some of your translations look very interesting:
> >
> > > > 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin
>
> Did you notice Northern Low Saxon (Low German) _wokeen_ for 'who'?  It
> is pronounced ['voUkE.In] or [voU'kE.In], often abbreviated to _keen_
> [kE.In], especially as a conjunction, as for example in _Ik weet nich,
> keen dat schreven hett_ 'I don't know who wrote it/that'.
>
> This abbreviated _keen_ coincides with _keen_ [kE.In] 'none', 'no ...',
> as in _Ik verstah keen Ingelsch_ 'I understand no English'.  However,
> this does not usually cause confusion.  'No one' and 'nobody' tends to
> be _keen een_ (often written _keeneen_) ['kE.In?E.In] ("no one").

I am not that familiar with Low Saxon, but it seems to
me that we're dealing with the same thing here. _Wuk-
eên_ (_wuk eên_) clearly consists of the words _wuk_
('what') and _eên_ ('one'). Is this the case for Low Saxon
as well? I mean, is _wokeen_ a contraction of something
like _wok_ and _een_?
The 'other' _keen_ ('none') does nog exist in Zeelandic/
West-Flemish. We use _gin_, _geên_ (or in Luc's spelling
probably _giïn_).

> Oftentimes I find elements in Flemish and Zeelandic that seem familiar
> from a Lowlands Saxon point of view, elements apparently not found in
> Standard Dutch.  I wonder if this is because (1) Standard Dutch somehow
> lost these, or (2) it is due to Saxon migration to and thus influence on
> the Flemish and Zeelandic areas.

I believe it is a mix of the two. And I think the 'real'
Saxon influence (as you described under [2]) can be
divided in Frisian/ingvaeonic influence on both
Low Saxon and Zeelandic/West-Flemish and on
the other hand true Low Saxon influence on the
language of the far southwest of the Lowlands area.

I believe I once pointed out the early Saxon migration
to the region of Boulogne in northern France, where
'Saxon' placenames are still to be found all over the
area. This Saxon region had quite an influence on
the Flemish/Zeelandic coastal areas just north of it.
I alwaus had difficulty to believe that 'Dutch' (Fran-
conian or Friso-Franconian) was spoken as far south
as Montreuil or even Abbeville in the 10th century.
I think these parts were largely Saxon in language due
to Saxon immigration.

As for the present situation, it is too easy to just say
that, for example, the strongly pronounced suffix -n
in West-Flemish verbs (_eetn_ 'to eat', _praotn_ 'to
talk') is 'Saxon'. In fact, this suffix -n is relatively
young and came from the east, from Brabant. Iron-
ically, it has disappeared from the Brabantish dialects
themselves later on.
The original system is 100% Frisian in both Zeeland
(where it still exists on most of the isles) and West-
Flanders (where it only exits in a few of the most
western villages in French Flandres, eg Wulverdinghe,
Nieurlet/Nieuwerleet and Buysscheure). Look at the
verb 'to walk in Zeelandic (Z), West-Flemish (WF),
French-Flemish of Buysscheure (FFB) and English (E):

Z - FFB - WF = E
ik loôpe - ik loôpe - ik loôpn = I walk
ons lôpe - wilder lôpe - wudder loôpn = we walk
ik è gelôpe - ik è gelôpe - ik èn geloôpn = I have walked

so in these examples there is no n in Zeelandic and
French-Flemish of Buysscheure, but there is an n in
West-Flemish.
Now these:

Z: ik bin te moe vo te lôpen
FFB: ik zien te moe(g) vo te lôpen
WF: ik zien te moe(g) vo/om te loôpn
E: I am too tired to walk

Z: lôpen is vo mien makkelijker as rieen
FFB: lôpen is vo mien makkelijker as/of rieen
WF: loôpn is vo mien makkelijker of rien
E: walking is easier for me than riding (a car, a bike)

As far as I now, Frisian (Westerlauwer Frisian)
Has the exact same system that apparantely
survived the Hollandic expansion in Zeeland
(no n's at all in the pronounciation Hollandic/
Standard Dutch - the n is however written in all
positions in Standard Dutch) and the Brabantish
expansion in the far west of French Flanders.

So I think there was quite an important influence
of Low Saxon on West-Flemish and, to a lesser
extent, Zeelandic. But I believe the Frisian influence
was a lot bigger and probably Zeelandic/West-
Flemish and Low Saxon share some of these
Frisian features.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Marco, thanks for yet another very informative piece!

> I am not that familiar with Low Saxon, but it seems to
> me that we're dealing with the same thing here. _Wuk-
> eên_ (_wuk eên_) clearly consists of the words _wuk_
> ('what') and _eên_ ('one'). Is this the case for Low Saxon
> as well? I mean, is _wokeen_ a contraction of something
> like _wok_ and _een_?

I'm not sure.  Maybe someone else knows.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 26 19:09:45 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:09:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (03) [E/F]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.120945.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

> Tentative:
>
> Westerlauwersk Frysk (Help!):
> "Lykje, âlde moane, lykje!" skreaude {Häwelmann}, mar de moane wie
> nearne ta sjen, ek e stjerren net; hja binne al alegeare ta bêd gongen.

Ik lit even de namme gewurde, de^r kinne oaren har faaks oer bu^ge..
Ik soe earder sizze (echte flater: lykje = "to seem", net "to shine")

"Skyn, a^ld moanne, skyn!" skreaude {Ha"welmann}, mar de moanne wie
nearne te sjen, en de stjerren ek net: hja wiene allegearre al op be^d
gien"
(Instead of "gien", "gongen" is also correct, a matter of dialect)

Ik soe oer it Sealtersk wat langer stinne moatte, dat de^r weagje ik my
foarearst net oan....

Groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 26 21:49:05 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:49:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (04) [E/F]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.144905.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]

Foar it Westerlauwersk Frysk (sa u't en troch jou ik mear farianten,
mar al te subtyl sil ik net besykje te we^zen, om 'e koartens..)

> ###: ENGLISH -
> 001: I, me - ik, my
> 002: you - do (obj: dy)
> 003: we - wy
> 004: this - dit
> 005: that - dat
> 006: who - wa
> 007: what - wat
> 008: not - net
> 009: all - al(le)
> 010: many - in soad, folle
> 011: one - ien
> 012: two - twa
> 013: big - grut
> 014: long - lang
> 015: small - lyts
> 016: woman - frommiske, frou
> 017: man - man
> 018: person - persoan, minske
> 019: fish - fisk
> 020: bird - fu^gel
> 021: dog - hu^n
> 022: louse - lu^s
> 023: tree - beam
> 024: seed - sied
> 025: leaf - ble^d
> 026: root - woartel
> 027: bark - bast
> 028: skin - hu^d
> 029: flesh - fleis, fle^sk (older)
> 030: blood - bloed
> 031: bone - bonke, bien (as a "material")
> 032: grease / oil - fet, oalje
> 033: egg - aai
> 034: horn - hoarn
> 035: tail - sturt
> 036: feather - fear
> 037: hair - hier
> 038: head - holle, haad (only in the sense of "boss")
> 039: ear - ear
> 040: eye - each
> 041: nose - noas
> 042: mouth - mu^le
> 043: tooth - toske
> 044: tongue - tonge
> 045: claw - kloer, klau
> 046: foot - foet
> 047: knee - knibbel
> 048: hand - ha^n
> 049: belly - liif, bu^k
> 050: neck - nekke
> 051: breast(s) - boarst(en)
> 052: heart - hert
> 053: liver - lever
> 054: to drink - drinke
> 055: to eat - ite
> 056: to bite - bite
> 057: to see - sjen
> 058: to hear - hearre
> 059: to know - witte
> 060: to sleep - sliepe
> 061: to die - (fer)stjerre
> 062: to kill - deameitsje, deie
> 063: to swim - swimme
> 064: to fly - fleane
> 065: to walk - rinne
> 066: to come - komme
> 067: to lie (down) - lizze, lizzen gean
> 068: to sit - sitte
> 069: to stand - stean
> 071: to say - sizze
> 072: sun - sinne
> 073: moon - moanne
> 074: star - stjer
> 075: water - wetter
> 076: rain - rein
> 077: stone - stien
> 078: sand - sa^n
> 079: earth - ierde
> 080: cloud - wolken
> 081: smoke - smoke (a cigaret, say), rikje ("it fjoer rikket" = the fire
is smoking)
> 082: fire - fjoer
> 083: ash - jiske
> 084: burn - (fer)baarne
> 085: path - paad
> 086: mountain - berch
> 087: red - read
> 088: green - grien
> 089: yellow - giel
> 090: white - wyt
> 091: black - swart
> 092: night - nacht
> 093: hot, warm - hjit, waarm
> 094: cold - ka^ld
> 095: full - fol
> 096: new - nij
> 097: good - goed
> 098: round - ru^n
> 099: dry - droech
> 100: name - namme

hardly a loan word in sight, nice to see..

Groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Henno.

I've added them to the page, minus annotation.  Also, under 081
("smoke") I put _reek_, because we all understood it as a noun.

By the way, in Lowlands Saxon, too, we have the verb (/smöük-/) _smöken_
'to smoke (tobacco)' (cf. archaic German _schmauchen_), and the noun
(/smouk/) _Smook_ 'smoke'.  I have now added the latter to _Rook, Röök_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 00:20:57 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:20:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.26 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.172057.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Language Samples

The modern Northumbrian language sample - I'm fascinated by some of the
similarities between my language & others. It would be great if some of
this could be put together in some sort of publication.

ENGLISH -   Northumbrian
001: I, me - I, me
002: you - yhay
003: we - we
004: this - this
005: that - thet, thad
006: who - wee
007: what - whet
008: not - not, nod
009: all - aal
010: many - menny
011: one - wern
012: two - two
013: big - muckle
014: long - lang
015: small - smaal
016: woman - wumin
017: man - man
018: person - porson
019: fish - fish
020: bird - bord
021: dog - dog, durg
022: louse - louse, loose
023: tree - tree
024: seed - seed
025: leaf - leaf
026: root - ruoot
027: bark - bark
028: skin - kin
029: flesh - flesh
030: blood - blood, blurd
031: bone - bane, burn
032: grease / oil - oil
033: egg - egg
034: horn - horn
035: tail - tail
036: feather - feather, feathah
037: hair - hi'er
038: head - heed
039: ear - ear, lug
040: eye - eye
041: nose - nose,
042: mouth - mooth
043: tooth - tooth, tuith
044: tongue - tongue
045: claw - claa
046: foot - foot
047: knee - knee
048: hand - hand, hend
049: belly - belly, gut, kite
050: neck - neck
051: breast(s) - breast, breest
052: heart - heart, hairt
053: liver - liver, livah
054: to drink - tu drink
055: to eat - tu eat
056: to bite - tu bite
057: to see - tu see
058: to hear - tu heor
059: to know - tu knaa
060: to sleep - tu sleep
061: to die - tu die
062: to kill - tu kill
063: to swim - tu swim
064: to fly - tu flee
065: to walk - tu waalk
066: to come - tu cyum or howay (come along)
067: to lie (down) - tu lie
068: to sit - tu sit, sid
069: to stand - tu stand, stan
071: to say - tu saya
072: sun - surn
073: moon - moon
074: star - star
075: water - watter, wattah
076: rain - rain
077: stone - sturn, stane
078: sand - sand, san
079: earth - orth
080: cloud - cloud, clood
081: smoke - smurk, smooke
082: fire - fire
083: ash - esh
084: burn - born
085: path - peth
086: mountain - moontin
087: red - reed
088: green - green
089: yellow - yella
090: white - white
091: black - black
092: night - neet
093: hot, warm - hot, het / waarm
094: cold - caad, cowld
095: full - full
096: new - new
097: good - gurd
098: round - roond
099: dry - dry
100: name - nyem

Glenn Simpson
Northumbrian Language Society

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language samples

Thanks, Glenn!

I've added your list to the page:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]

>From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2002.06.25 (03) [E]
>
>>It was with great interest that I read the letter of Luc Hellinckx and
>>his
>>various expressions, and also the responses that his letter generated.
>>
>>With the same aim in mind as Luc, that is to choose universal words that
>>highlight the subtle differences between the lowlands languages, I have
>>decided to compile a list of numbers, as these words are generally quite
>>similar.
>
>I'm afraid this might be self-evident, but I can't help wondering if a
>standard Swadesh list is available for Lowlands languages. It would be
>very much in line with what a lot of people here seem to be doing.
>Regards,
>Leonard Okhotchinski
>----------
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Numerals
>
>Dear Leonard,
>
>Excellent idea, the Swadesh list, Leonard!  Thanks!  I am not aware of
>there being a comparative "Lowlandic" one, but it should be easy enough
>to create one, should sufficient help be forthcoming.  I can provide the
>Northern Low Saxon (Low German) and German items.  Additions in any
>varieties or sub-varieties would be welcome.  It would be great to
>eventually add this to our "language exhibit."
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Hello Leonard, hello Ron !

No doubt such a comparative list can be helpful for several purposes but
I
think it can also mislead because it doesn't mention that in distinct
languages a word can undergo a different developement. For example: In
Eastern Friesland Low Saxon the word for skin is "hu:d" but we also have
the word "skin" and this is exactly the same word as in English but it
has
developed a modified meaning (= dandruff, scurf, peeled skin). Somewhere
on
the table I read the word "vent" for "man, male person". This word
(fent)
also exists in EFLS but it means "boy".
According to the situation, the intention of the speaker etc. there are
several possibilities for example to express "to kill" or "to murder"
but
most of them aren't one word but expressions that can be considered to
be
phraseologisms. This is true for a lot of other expressions, too. But
these
won't ever been picked up into such a comparative list (don't explain
why -
I know) but they are very characteristic for the language (especially
the
non-standardized languages.
Nevertheless I'll mail a EFLS version of the list.

Regards
Holger

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Numerals

Dear all

Northumbrian numbahs (numbers) -


ENGLISH    FRISIAN       DUTCH         LOW SAXON     GERMAN
North'd

1     one        ien           een           een           eins    wern
2     two        twa           twee          twee          zwei    two
3     three                    drie          dree          drei    three
4     four                     vier                        vier    fower
5     five                     vijf                        fuenf   five
6     six                      zes           zoess         sechs   six
7     seven                    zeven                       sieben  siven
8     eight                    acht                        acht    eyght
9     nine                     negen                       neun    nine
10    ten                      tien                        zehn    ten
11    eleven                   elf                         elf
eliven
12    twelve                   twaalf        twoelf        zwoelf
twelve
13    thirteen                 dertien                     dreizehn
thortee
14    fourteen                 veertien                    vierzehn
fowteen
15    fifteen                  vijftien                  fuenfzehn
fifteen
16    sixteen                  zestien                    sechzehn
sixteen
17    seventeen                zeventien                  siebzehn
siventeen
18    eighteen                 achttien                    achtzehn
eyghteen
19    nineteen                 negentien                   neunzehn
nineteen
20    twenty                   twintig                     zwanzig
twenie
30    thirty                   dertig                      dreissig
thorty
40    forty                    veertig                     vierzig
fowty
50    fifty                    vijftig                     fuenfzig
fifty
60    sixty                    zestig                      sechzig
sixty
70    seventy                  zeventig                    siebzig
siventy
80    eighty                   tachtig                     achtzig
eyghty
90    ninety                   negentig                    neunzig
ninety
100   hundred                  honderd                     hundert
hundrid

Tek care,

Glenn Simpson

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 04:11:38 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:11:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.211138.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Help needed
>
>Liebe Lowlanders,
>   Wie Ihr wisst, arbeiten wir momentan an kurzen Enfí±£í²µngen in die
>"Lowlands-Sprachen" (unter dem Titel "Lowlands Talk"). Es sollen auch
>kurze Sprachproben dabei sein. Fí² í°¤ie verschiedenen nordfriesischen
>Sprachvarianten stehen glí±Ží»¬icherweise kurze, einsä´ºige Proben bereit,
>die das Nordfriisk Instituut (Nordfriesische Institut,
>http://www.nordfriiskinstituut.de/) online ausstellt, und zwar aus
>Theodor Storms Kinderbuch _Hä·¥lmann_ (*siehe Links unten). Ich wí² í´¥
>gern auch saterfriesische und westerlauwer-friesische ܢersetzungen
>hinzufí±žíµ®.
>Es wä²¥ natí² í¼©ch auch schí¹ºí¼ >wenn wir davon auch Ü¢ersetzungen in die anderen
>Lowlands-Sprachvarianten hä´´en. Falls Ihr den Namen _Hä·¥lmann_ nicht
>í± íµ²nehmen wollt, bedenkt bitte beim Ü¢ersetzen, dass _Hä·¥lmann_
>(_Hevelmann_) -- hier der Name eines ungeduldigen, nie zufriedenen
>Jungen -- auf Nieders䣨sisch (Niederdeutsch) so etwas wie
>"entzí±Ží»¥nder, kleiner Junge/Liebling" bedeutet (von _hä·¥ln_ ~ _heveln_
>'(ein Baby oder Kleinkind) verhä´³cheln und mit Spielen unterhalten').
>Bitte bedenkt auch, dass dies nicht die einzigen Sprachproben sein
>werden, und dass wir uns freuen wí² í´¥n, wenn Ihr uns auch andere *kurze*
>Sprachproben zuschicken wí² í´¥t.
>   Herzlichen Dank!
>   Reinhard/Ron
>
>
>German (original?):
>"Leuchte, alter Mond, leuchte!" schrie Hä·¥lmann, aber der Mond war
>nirgends zu sehen und auch die Sterne nicht; sie waren alle schon zu
>Bett gegangen.
>(Theodor Storm: _Hä·¥lmann_)
>
Eastern Friesland Low Saxon:
"Sghîn, oel món, sghîn !" böelk Hävelmann (Kne:welke), man däi
món was
nargends tau säin un o:k däi ste:erns näit; däi wassen al âl up
bäe gón.

(If it is not displayed correctly:
sgh[i+accent circonflexe]n, oel m[o+accent aigu]n, sgh[i+accent
circonflexe]
n !  b[o-Umlaut]elk H. man d[a-Umlaut]i m[o+accent aigu]n was nargends
tau s
[a-Umlaut]in un o:k d[a-Umlaut]i ste:erns n[a-Umlaut]it (or: ni), d[a-
Umlaut]i wassen al [a+accent circonflexe]l up b[a-Umlaut]e g[o+accent
aigu]
n.)

I take Hävelmann for a name. As a word with the meaning Ron explained
it is
totally unknown to me. I then would propose "Kne:welke", the diminutive
for "kne:wel", a little boy, loveable but a "real boy".

Kumpelment
Holger

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (02) [E]

A chairde,

Due to work commitments I have only been able to keep
up intermittently with the fantastic and informative
discussions ongoing. I trust you forgive me.

I'd like to throw a new question into the ring if I
may. Long-term contributors will recall my rather
obsessive drive to understand the origin and
development of northern English dialects, specifically
the variants spoken around Nottingham. When I arrived
on the list I had some rather fantastical assumptions
that the variants were the dregs of the Old Norse of
the Danelaw; since then, having learnt swathes of both
Dutch and West Frisian, I can say with certainty that
the Nottingham variants derive almost entirely from a
West Germanic base (although phonology retains
substantial North Germanic remnants, I'm certain).
Vocabulary in particular is heavily influenced by what
appears to be either Zeelandic; grammar is less
obvious.

My question is this: if Nottingham English is
descdended almost entirely from a Franconian or
Ingvaeonic mileau (someone will have to precisely
reiterate the differences to me again, I'm afraid),
does any of it at all descend from the Scandinavian
(presumably proto-Danish or Jutish) spoken in the
Danelaw?

Go raibh maith agaibh!

Chris.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 14:32:58 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:32:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.073258.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Samples

Dear All,

Ron said:

>Say, Gary, aren't [v] and [f] options for _th_ in
>Estuary English?  Or
>is that considered sub-standard?

It would be just in the boundaries of Estuary, but
definitely at the London end of the scale. At my
school where I grew up, I can only remember one pupil
there that substituted v and f for th, and I know in
the cruel way of children that we used to 'take the
mickey out of him' - tease him.

My mother always used to correct me when I used this,
and also when I used a glottal stop between vowels, as
this wasn't considered 'refayned' enough. However,
since she never made comments about my glottaling of t
pre-consonantally, my difference in pronunciation
between 'board' and 'bored', or my l-vocalisation,
these are features which I've retained. It's only
since teaching English as a foreign language that I've
tried to reinsert my 'l's. (I have to admit though
that this means that I tend to be hypercorrect when
teaching at times and sometimes pronounce words like
'walk' with an l!)

The rules for f and v substitution would be as follows

th substituted by f in all positions, think > fink,
path > pahf

dh substituted by v when non-initial, mother > muvver,
bathe > bave

dh omitted when word initial, this > is, that > a?.

Also on the Swadesh list, I made a mistake, and I
wrote 'fat' as 'f@?' this should have been 'fä?',
sorry

Gary

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language samples

Thanks, Gary!

The two places where I noticed /D/ -> [v] and /T/ [f/ were London and
Australia, among then young people (mid-1960s-mid-1980s).  In Australia
it did not seem to be an areal feature but a social one.

I'll correct the mistake on the list later today, will also add
Criostoir's Nottingham English items.  Holger's Eastern Friesland ones
are already up.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Dear all

Glenn wrote:

>097: good - gurd

Glenn - quick question - I thought Northumbrian
English was rhotic (pronounced the 'r's in all
positions with a uvular r unique in England to to the
North East). From your spelling of good as gurd and
also you wrote feather as -er or -ah does this mean
this 'r' is disappearing in the region or are my
sources incorrect?

Gary

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (06) [E]

Criostoir wrote:

> I can say with certainty that
> the Nottingham variants derive almost entirely from a
> West Germanic base (although phonology retains
> substantial North Germanic remnants, I'm certain).
> Vocabulary in particular is heavily influenced by what
> appears to be either Zeelandic; grammar is less
> obvious.

I think that in respect to vocabulary, you could
put the lable 'ingvaeonic' on these northern English
variants you mentioned. I mean, you say that voca-
bulary is heavily influenced by Zeelandic and ?Frisian?
(I think you forgot a word there). These languages
are about the most 'ingvaeonic' of all present day
(mainland) West Germanic languages.

> My question is this: if Nottingham English is
> descdended almost entirely from a Franconian or
> Ingvaeonic mileau (someone will have to precisely
> reiterate the differences to me again, I'm afraid),
> does any of it at all descend from the Scandinavian
> (presumably proto-Danish or Jutish) spoken in the
> Danelaw?

When I was on the Shetlands, I was surprised to
hear the same word for 'back' being used as in
Zeelandic: _rik_ (I believe it is spelled _rigg_ in
Shetlandic). This _rigg_ in Shetlandic is said to be
of Norse descent, but if the same word was to be
known in Nottingham English as well, would it
be a Norse or Northern Germanic loan or an Ing-
vaeonic ('Zeelandic') one? I think it is very difficult
to tell if certain elements or words in a language
clearly derive from another certain language. Only
relatively young borrowings can easily be traced, I
guess.

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 14:45:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:45:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.27 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.074534.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Saxon immigration

Beste leeglanners,

Just a guess...could the "wok" used in "wok-een" (meaning "who") not be
the regional pronounciation of "welk" (D), "which" (E), "welche" (G) ?
I remember hearing people from the southern part of Western Flanders say
:
"Wok esjt ?" which could be translated in :
"Wat is er ?" (D)
"Was ist los ?" (G)
"What's the matter ?" (E)
"Welk" does not exist in my Brabantish either, depending on gender, one
always hears :
"de waezn ?" (M) (male)
"de waes ?" (M) (female)
"t waes ?" (M) (neutral)
This "waes" actually stands for "wiens" (D), and "wie" (D) is
consequently pronounced as "wae" (M).
Also this : I remember reading this relatively new book a year or two
ago that dealt with the subject of how the linguistic border came about
in Belgium...and it stated that one of the earliest waves (there were
several) of colonisation that "struck" Western Belgium happened by sea
and originated in Northern Germany. Unfortunately I cannot exactly
remember the dates but if I must guess I should say this happened
roughly during the third or fourth century (AC), when the Roman empire
was already weakening...not that it was ever very strong felt I think in
those marshes *s*.
When I'm back home I can give you more information regarding that
(interesting) book. The writer's name was something like "Lemaire" or
"Lamarq" I believe...and I think the "Davidsfonds" was a co-promoter.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Luc,

Interesting theory!

_Welk_ [vE.(l)k] ~ _weck_ 'which' does exist in Lowlands Saxon.  Note
the possible deletion of the /l/.  So, I can see that *_welk een_ 'which
one' could change into _wokeen_ 'who'.

However, I vaguely remember someone once advancing a different theory
about _wokeen_.  I'll have to dig around for it.

Ah!  Found it: March 07, 2001, from our good friend Marco Evenhuis, and
it's *not* a different theory but the same:

> > > > From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> > >
> > > Below the versions in my Limburgish from Vliermaal
> > > (Sorry it's not really an etymological contribution)
> > >
> > > > /(wou)kein/ wokeen ~ keen 'who'
> > > > (cf. /kein(ein)/ keen(een) 'none', 'no one', 'nobody')
> > > > (cf. NL wie, Afr. wie 'who')
> > > > (cf. D wer 'who')
> > > Li: "wi-e"
> > WF: wa('t)
> Z: wie, older form: welkeên; gineên 'none', 'no one'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 18:45:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:45:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.114514.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

S======================================================================
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From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.26 (05) [E]

Holger wrote:
>No doubt such a comparative list can be helpful for several purposes but
>I
>think it can also mislead because it doesn't mention that in distinct
>languages a word can undergo a different developement. For example: In
>Eastern Friesland Low Saxon the word for skin is "hu:d" but we also have
>the word "skin" and this is exactly the same word as in English but it
>has
>developed a modified meaning (= dandruff, scurf, peeled skin). Somewhere
>on
>the table I read the word "vent" for "man, male person". This word
>(fent)
>also exists in EFLS but it means "boy".
>According to the situation, the intention of the speaker etc. there are
>several possibilities for example to express "to kill" or "to murder"
>but
>most of them aren't one word but expressions that can be considered to
>be
>phraseologisms. This is true for a lot of other expressions, too. But
>these
>won't ever been picked up into such a comparative list (don't explain
>why -
>I know) but they are very characteristic for the language (especially
>the
>non-standardized languages.
>Nevertheless I'll mail a EFLS version of the list.

The rule of this Swadesh game is to choose the commonest word, semantic
shifts don't count. There may be two equally often used lexemes with the
same meaning, then there is a procedure for this case, too (they both
count). The idea is to compare how much of the inherited Germanic (in
this
case) vocabulary survived. The method is based on the theory that
changes in
the core vocabulary occur at the same rate. Then, supposedly, we can
measure
how long ago the languages started developing separately. There is a
formula
with logs that I don't remember, but it can be looked up in any intro
book
on comparative studies. Ideally, it's like carbon dating.
I'm sorry about this long explanation, but I thought it might be useful
for
the people who contribute data on their native languages and are "just
speakers" without any linguistic training - that is the best kind of
speakers:)
It would be fascinating to see what the lists would look like for such a
closely related and constantly contacting group.

For some mysterious reasons I haven't been able to send my posting about
the
"horse sound". The first time it got lost, so maybe there is more to it
than
bad luck... Anyway, last week somebody (sorry, I can't remember who it
was)
mentioned that in his area if they want to tell a horse to stop, they
say
RRRRR! This sound is believed to have come from Russia along with a
breed of
horses.
The sound used in Russian for that purpose is a partially devoiced
bilabial
vibrant, transcribed as "tpru". My question was: What is the exact
quality
of the RRRR! sound?

Regards,
Leonard Okhotchinski

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Leonard,

Sorry again about the lost (?) submission.  I don't know what happened
there.

Thank you very much for the explanation (above).  No apologies
required.  It's a great introduction/refresher for us, and your input
now and always is very much appreciated.

I'll put some more data into the table sometime later today.
(http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm)

Leonard, you wrote ...

> The rule of this Swadesh game is to choose the commonest word,
> semantic shifts don't count.

I think this has been the problem for one of us, and in some cases it
*may* be difficult to tell which is most common.

So you are saying then, that we should find *cognates* if you say
"semantic shifts don't count"?

As you can see, Holger (Eastern Friesland) put several possibilities in
some cases.  For instance, under 017 ("man") he writes _ke:erl,
manminsk(e), man_.  I (Northern) wrote just _Mann_, but I could also
have given _Keerl, Kierl, Mannsminsch, Mann_.  Holger wrote under 010
("many") _'n büelt, fööl, mennigh, mennergh_, where I wrote just _veel_
but could have written _'n Barg, 'n groot Deel, veel, 'n Hümpel, 'n
Hupen, gewaltig, asig, mennig_.  Should I have written _mennig_ because
it is a cognate of English _many_?  I had just "instinctively" chosen
_Mann_ and _veel_ because I felt they were "basic" (even if someone may
prove that they are not used as frequently as alternatives by some
speakers.

An example is to choose Lowlands Saxon _mennig_ for 'many' because it is
a cognate of "many", although _mennig_ is more often used to denote
something more specialized like "many a ..." (similar to German
_manche(r/s)_.  I guess another such case would be -- I am not sure if
it was you among others who shares my interest in Yiddish -- to choose
for Yiddish _fil_ for "many/much" if German _viel_, Lowlands Saxon
_veel_, Dutch _veel_, etc., are already listed.  In my experience (and
in my less than perfect usage) _fil_ may be used less than _a sakh_ (_a
sach_) to denote "many/much" in Yiddish.  So, would I have to enter
_fil_ rather than _a sakh_ if we had a Yiddish column?  As you can tell,
I thought I knew but now feel a bit confused.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 18:47:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:47:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.114723.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language varieties"

> From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
> Subject: Language Samples
>
> The modern Northumbrian language sample - I'm fascinated by some of the
> similarities between my language & others. It would be great if some of
> this could be put together in some sort of publication.
>
> ENGLISH -   Northumbrian
> 011: one - wern
> 018: person - porson
> 026: root - ruoot
> 030: blood - blood, blurd
> 031: bone - bane, burn
> 037: hair - hi'er
> 043: tooth - tooth, tuith
> 072: sun - surn
> 077: stone - sturn, stane
> 084: burn - born
> 097: good - gurd

Glenn,

I'm afraid the above spellings leave me completely puzzled,
especially the "ur". How is this pronounced - surely not
with the breathy, uvular "r" of Northumbian?

Such things as "hi'er" and "ruoot" leave me with no basis
for comparison at all!

Could you possibly put these into the characters used on
the SAMPA pages at:

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm

It's not all that easy, but maybe worth working at so you
can get the sounds of your language across on this list.

A couple of other things I've been wondering about:

> 001: I, me - I, me

Would "Aw" be a better representation of "I"? I know I just
used "I" in my Scots list, but I was just using generally
accepted spellings with no attempt to represent the pronunciation!

> 012: two - two

It's probably about 20 years since I've heard "proper"
Northumbrian spoken, but I'd thought "tweh" (by which I
mean /twE:/ in SAMPA) was how I'd heard "two" pronounced.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 23:30:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:30:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (05) [E]
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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Lamguage varieties"

> From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.26 (05) [E]
>
> The rule of this Swadesh game is to choose the commonest word, semantic

In this case I should have put "wee" rather than "smaa" for "small" in
the
list, I think - I put "smaa" because it was cognate with "small", not
because it was the comonest word.

> case) vocabulary survived. The method is based on the theory that
> changes in
> the core vocabulary occur at the same rate. Then, supposedly, we can
> measure
> how long ago the languages started developing separately. There is a
> formula
> with logs that I don't remember, but it can be looked up in any intro
> book
> on comparative studies. Ideally, it's like carbon dating.

I found the formula explained thusly on a Tolkein discussion
group at
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/elfling-mirror/000nn/00046 :

<quote>
The Swadesh formula is t= (log(n) x)/(2 log(n) 0.86), where t (time) is
expressed in thousands of years. Using the following data (which can, of
course, be argued with):
Total matches: 81
Cognates found: 57: Percentage = 57/81 = .704 = 70.4% shared cognates
Non-cognates found: 24: Percentage = 24/81 = .296

And applying them to the formula:
log(n) .704 = -.351
2 log(n) .86 = -.302
-.351/-.302 = 1.162 (thousand)

By this system Quenya and Sindarin are separated by about 1162 years.
<unquote>

Another article I found gives the "0.86" as a variable but
doesn't explain it, so maybe it's a calibration constant.

Anyway, after putting in "wee" instead of small, I count 94
cognates between Scots and English, and so calculate that the
two languages have been diverging for 205 years. Say, since
just after Burns.

This doesn't make much sense, does it? I don't think 17th century
Scots, when written in the common idiom, would produce a much
different wordlist from the one I supplied.

I wouldn't mind calculating this for all the Lowland languages in
the table, but first I'd like to know if I'm doing it right, and
if it really means anything at all!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Lowlanders,

Given Leonard's and Sandy's overview of the purpose of the Swadesh list,
I wonder if the Afrikaans and Dutch (Thanks, Rudi!) entries for 018
"person" should not be _mens_ instead of _persoon_.  (See our updated
list at http://sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm)

In Lowlands Saxon, too, I could say _Persoon_ ([p(h)E.'zo:n]), but I
"instinctively" chose "basic" _Minsch_ "human being" (and Sandy chose
Scots _body_, etc.).  (I'm wondering if this item ought not be labeled
"human being," since this is obviously what they are after.)

Given what Leonard and Sandy tell us about the purpose of the list and
the calculations it is supposed to allow, it seems to me that we really
have to weigh each choice extremely carefully.  I for my part will have
to go through my own data (Northern Lowlands Saxon) again.

Sandy (above):

> In this case I should have put "wee" rather than "smaa" for "small" in
> the list, I think - I put "smaa" because it was cognate with "small",
> not because it was the comonest word.

That's pretty much the basis on which I operated.  If given the green
light, I'd go through my own data again with that awareness.  But where
to draw the line in cases of drastic semantic changes?  For instance,
English has 'wife' = 'female spouse,' cognate being L. Sax. _Wief_ =
'despicable woman' (versus _Fru_ ~ _Fro_ 'woman'), in more archaic
contexts just _Wief_ 'woman' or 'wife.'  Similarly, English "town" =
Dutch _tuin_ 'garden' = E. Fries. L. Sax. _tuun_ 'garden' = N. L. Sax.
_Tuun_ 'fence' = German _Zaun_ 'fence'.  I know.  These items don't
appear in the list (and perhaps for good reason), are only supposed to
point to potential problems with regard to cognates.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 00:25:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:25:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technical" 2002.06.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.172527.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technical

Lowlanders,

I think I just figured out ("Duh!") why we have this problem with Holger
Weigelt's "special" characters.  I always get gobbledigook in place of
his "special" characters, and many of you may too.  However, they show
up just fine in the display of our archive
(http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html).  The reason
seems to be that the archive display is now set to "Unicode" as the
default.  Our "special" characters show up as gobbledigook there until
we change the browser display to "Western," and then Holger's are
gobbledigook.  I assume that Holger has set his mailing program to
Unicode (being the only one in synch with them?), and this is why.

I wanted to do a test to see if you or most of you would have problems
if I switched my (Netscape) mailing interface to Unicode.  Unicode *is*
one of my options, but whenever I set it to Unicode it defaults back to
"Western." Darn! Why?!

Of course, since LINGUIST sets their display to Unicode and seems to
advocate it (understandably so), and I think we should support that
(allowing for more "special" characters to be used, including - hey! -
IPA), it would be really neat if we *all* switched to it (if possible).
But what would this do to the rest of our (non-Lowlandic) correspondence
(with people who do not use Unicode)?

Might a general Unicode mode even enable Sandy Fleming to see my
"special" characters?  Miracles do happen.

Any inside, advice, wisdom, solution, anyone?

Thanks!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 15:18:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:18:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E]
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From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (01) [E]

A chairde,

Gary and Ron discuss the use of [v] and [f]
overpowering original /th/. This is something in
England that has spread exponentially, largely because
of the London-based media. It is now very common to
hear younger Nottingham English speakers (of which I
am one) saying "wotch yuh maaf" for "wotch yuh maath"
(watch your mouth). "th" rather than "dh" seems to be
more easily affected.

The same goes for the shift from terminal [l] to a [w]
sound, although Nottingham in particular received a
large wave of Polish migration after the war and I
have often wondered if this change was brought about
as a result.

I haven't seen much evidence of Australians confusing
/th/ with [v] or [f], Ron. My fiancee doesn't do it,
and she's moved between New South Wales, Tasmania and
latterly Western Australia her whole life. I never
seen any examples of it in Kalgoorlie where I live,
although the town is considered quite "ocker Aussie"
(i.e., retaining unaffected pronunciations) in its
dialect. I haven't heard it in Perth when I visit that
city once every couple of months either. There is a
huge dialect difference between Western Australia and
the eastern states (which is now being diluted due to
television).

Having said all that, my fiancee's cousin's husband is
a Sydney man of Lebanese birth, and he does regularly
substitute [v] and [f] for /th/ phonemes. Apparently
this has formed a whole new dialect in the Sydney area
since the late 1970s. He is immensely proud of this as
it marks him out as a "Leb" and Sydneysider. More
power to him!

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Chris.

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (01) [E]

A chairde,

You're right, Marco, I did entirely leave Frisian off
my "relatives of Nottingham English" list - West
Frisian at least. I didn't want to be mocked in case I
had made a huge assuming mistake. One of my best
friends is Frisian and I was surprised at first how
much Frisian I could understand, and how a lot of the
grammar made a lot of sense to me, even if it was
archaic-sounding (mind you, the same could be said of
Norwegian when I first heard it). Most northern
English variants used to have (and some still do) a
markedly different grammar to standard English,
precisely because it's Ingvaeonic in origin. The best
example I can think of immediately is "Do I not like
that!" for "I don't like that!" To a northerner this
makes complete sense; to a southerner it is of course
a completely different language, or at least sounds
like a rhetorical question.

Unfortunately for northern English, most of this
grammar is giving way to "standard English" forms.

As for "rigg" - it isn't in Nottingham English. The
word for back is "bakk" (with /kk/ representing, I
think, a [q] sound). I'm not too sure about parts of
the body in Nottingham English. I have spent a lot of
my life away from Nottingham and a lot of the terms I
heard my stepfather's father and other elderly people
using I would have considered "quaint" and not used.
About the only ones I still use are "tab" (ear) and
"gob" (mouth; probably a loan from Irish anyway).


That's precisely the problem with Nottingham English.
It is being "quainted" out of existence. It is bizarre
to see children talking in true Nottingham English
(grammar, vocabulary and all) only when they're
messing around with each other (and particularly to
younger children) - as if it's a mood language. Most
of the rest of the time they speak standard English
with minimal Nottingham English grammatical
interference but with strong Nottingham English
phonology.

By the way, Marco - does Frisian or Zeelandic have the
grammatical possibility "I ain't not never done nowt"
(I didn't do it [HEAVILY EMPHATIC]) that we do in
Nottingham English? (Although I should write it as "A
yenn not nevuh dunn noewt" to be faithful to the
phonology.)

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Chris.

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (05) [E]

Ron wrote:

> Given what Leonard and Sandy tell us about the purpose of the list and
> the calculations it is supposed to allow, it seems to me that we really
> have to weigh each choice extremely carefully.  I for my part will have
> to go through my own data (Northern Lowlands Saxon) again.

I did the same for Zeelandic. For West-Flemish, I took the
list posted by Luc and had a second look at that as well. I
did that with the help of two informants of the 'Woorden-
boek van de Vlaamse dialecten', the Dictionary of Flemish
dialects, a project of the university of Ghent.
BTW: I happened to run into these two informants last
night in a pub in Middelburg. They are touring the 'Flemish
periphery' (as they called it) this summer, concentrating on
linguistic similarities between West-Flanders, Zeeland,
French Flanders and some coastal towns of the provinces
of North and South Holland. A very 'ingvaeonic' vacation
for those two, I would say.
I posted the two lists privately to Ron. I am looking forward
for some (especially West-Flemish) feedback on them.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Dear All

Marco wrote:

>When I was on the Shetlands, I was surprised to
>hear the same word for 'back' being used as in
>Zeelandic: _rik_ (I believe it is spelled _rigg_ in
>Shetlandic). This _rigg_ in Shetlandic is said to be
>of Norse descent, but if the same word was to be
>known in Nottingham English as well, would it
>be a Norse or Northern Germanic loan or an Ing-
>vaeonic ('Zeelandic') one?

There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
word.

Gary

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language varieties

Language Varieties
Gary wrote -

Dear all

Glenn wrote:

>097: good - gurd

Glenn - quick question - I thought Northumbrian
English was rhotic (pronounced the 'r's in all
positions with a uvular r unique in England to to the
North East). From your spelling of good as gurd and
also you wrote feather as -er or -ah does this mean
this 'r' is disappearing in the region or are my
sources incorrect?

Gary

Thanks for the question. As I said to Sandy, the
'rolled' 'r' is sadly dying out, virtually no one
under 50-ish uses it any more. When the 'r' is used
the language has a very rhythmic, 'Germanic' feel to
it. What is happening now is that the Tyneside version
of Northumbrian is becoming the main variant of the
language, although this doesn't explain the
disappearance of the 'r' because it was used on
Tyneside as well. I think it has just gone out of
fashion, probably because of education and media
influences. It's too guttural sounding.

My use of the 'ur' sound (i.e. 'gurd'), which I'm
afraid has confused some Lowlanders (sorry), is modern
Northumbrian. I suspect that it is the result of
Northumbrian's trying to say the Standard English word
but without much success because of the strong
regional accent.

The problem is there are still several different
spoken versions of the language (despite what I said
before), which makes it difficult to standardise
spelling. I use the West Tyne / Tyne Valley version
but even here there are subtle differences between
towns only a few miles away. It's even more
complicated when talking about the Durham area!

On a wider note - preserving the older Northumbrian is
fine (that's what our language society does!) - BUT I
think it's important to highlight to people how the
language is spoken now! I don't want to give a false
impression. I will in the future use older and new
forms.

Keep-ahaad,

Glenn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Chris,

I lived in Perth and Fremantle (Western Australia) for long time
(1970s-early 1980s).  Yes, there was a lot of influx from the Eastern
States at the time, and, yes, some of the young people that then used
[v] and [f] for [D] and [T] where Sydneysiders.  However, some of them
were locals.  Perhaps it was a case of spread from more "with-it"
Sydneysiders, and maybe it was short-lived, but it *was* noticeable.

Lowlanders,

As for the Swadesh list, here is another case of a cognate with a strong
semantic shift: English "small" and Lowlands Saxon _small_ [sma.l]
'narrow' (vs _lütt_ 'small', 'little').  So, how do you handle this?

Also, Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) has _wäa_ and some other
dialects (mostly of younger people) also use _wer_ for 'who' now,
apparently borrowed from German _wer_ (vs native _wokeen_).  How does
that influence the results?  How do you distingish between digergence
and convergence if German were on this list?

Gary,

> There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
> the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
> 'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
> natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
> a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
> something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
> speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
> 'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
> English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
> surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
> word.

Lowlands Saxon has _Rügg_ [rYC] 'back' (usually misspelled as _Rüch_, vs
plural _Rüggen_ ['rYgN=]) and _Brügg_ [brYC] (usually misspelled as
_Brüch_, vs plural _Brüggen_ ['brYgN=] -- Hello! Can you say "final
fricativization"?).

Marco,

I have added your lists.  Thanks.

http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 15:23:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:23:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.082354.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]

Ron wrote:

>So we get:
>
>English:                Lowlands
>Mainland Scots:         Lawlands
>Ulster Scots:           Lallans
>Shetlandic:             Laich Laands

I think it's worth pointing out here that _laich_ is a general Scots
word, not
uniquely Shetlandic. (There is a theory that the only 'lake' in
Scotland, the
Lake of Menteith, is a mistranscription of Laich of Menteith - ie. the
low land
where the _loch_ lies.) On the other hand, I am not aware of a word
'law'
(which in my dialect should be pronounced 'laa' [la:]) in Shetlandic. I
think
that 'laich lands' would do equally well for general Scots, but I can't
see
'laa lands' meaning anything in Shetland. (Sometimes such differences
between,
say, Shetlandic, Scots and Ullans are as much owing to the choice of
translators as to substantial differences in the dialects or languages.)

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 15:25:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:25:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.082519.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2002.06.25 (03) [E]

>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Numbers!
>
>Dear Ron / Lowlanders
>
>It was with great interest that I read the letter of Luc Hellinckx and
>his
>various expressions, and also the responses that his letter generated.
>
>With the same aim in mind as Luc, that is to choose universal words that
>highlight the subtle differences between the lowlands languages, I have
>decided to compile a list of numbers, as these words are generally quite
>similar.
>
>I have so far translated this list into English, Dutch and German, but
>my
>knowledge of Frisian and Low Saxon is presently far from complete so I
>will
>need some help from the other members in preparing this table.

Hello David !
Here the numbers in the Eastern Friesland Low Saxon variant.
(Because of display problems I write special letters as their names +
diacritics in square brackets. Long vowels are followed by a colon - the
correct character is the vowel with a stroke above. The ae-ligature of
the
alternative spelling means the same sound as denoted by this letter in
IPA-
writing)
Please mention that ~ei~ [EI] in the alternative spelling means an other
sound than ~ei~ [aI] in the German based orthography.
The numerals 13-19 show an interesting irregularity because the long
~a:j~
in ta:jn should regularly be changed to short ~ai~ not to ~ei~ which is
the
short equivalent to long ~[a-Umlaut]j~ (regular example: dr[a-Umlaut]j /
dreihunnert = 3 / 300).
There are some local variations as well. For example: tw[a-Umlaut]j
mostly
sounds [tvE:I] but in some areas You can also hear [tvIEI]. In my
listing
below I only present the most widespread "standard"-pronounciation.
>
>      ENGLISH    Eastern Friesland Low Saxon
           alternative / "traditional" German based orthography /
pronounciation
>
>1     one        [a-Umlaut]ien / een
>2     two        tw[a-Umlaut]j / twee  [tvE:I]
>3     three      dr[a-Umlaut]j / dree     [drE:I]
>4     four       f[2x ae-ligature] /veer
>5     five       f[i+accent circonfl.]w / fief
>6     six        s[a-Umlaut]es / sess [zE:@s]
>7     seven      s[2x o-Umlaut]ven / söven (speak: s[long o-Umlaut]m)
>8     eight      a:cht / acht
>9     nine       ne:gen / negen
>10    ten        ta:jn / tein
>11    eleven     elm / elm
>12    twelve     twalm / twalm
>13    thirteen   dartein / dartein [speak: datEIn]
>14    fourteen   fe(r)tein / vertein [speak: fEtEIn]
>15    fifteen    fi:ftein / fieftein
>16    sixteen    ('t) sestein / sestein
>17    seventeen  ('t) s[2x o-Umlaut]mtein / söventein
>18    eighteen   achtein / achtein
>19    nineteen   ne:gentein / negentein
>20    twenty     twintergh / twintig
>30    thirty     da:rtergh / dartig
>40    forty      f[ae-ligature]rtergh / veertig
>50    fifty      fi:ftergh / fieftig
>60    sixty      't sestergh / sestig
>70    seventy    't s[2x o-Umlaut]mtergh / söventig
>80    eighty     't aghenterg / tachentig (speak: tangtergh)
>90    ninety     't ne:gentergh / negentig (speak: t-ne:ngtergh)
>100   hundred    hunnert / hunnert

Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 23:07:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:07:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.160727.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (03) [E]

Holger added the Eatern Frisian LS numbers to
David's list. Time to do the same for Zeelandic.
Note that Zeelandic has suffix -e for numerals
when used as a substantive:

Z:
"Ikke è vuuf kinders"
"'Oevee zei je?"
"Vuuve"

E:
"I've got five children"
"How much did you say?"
"Five"

>From twenty onwards, numbers used to get
_'t_ before them ('t veertig; 't vuuftig). Older
people sometimes still pronounce the _'t_, but
younger people don't, except for 90: _tnegentig_.
Although the _'t_ is gone, you can still tell that it
was once there, because the t sharpened the z's and
v's to s's and f's (so: _feertig_ in stead of _veertig_).

Now the numbers (when used as a substantive):

> >1     one        eêne
> >2     two        tweêe
> >3     three      driee
> >4     four       vieere
> >5     five       vuuve
> >6     six        zesse
> >7     seven      zevene
> >8     eight      achte
> >9     nine       negene
> >10    ten        tieene
> >11    eleven     elve
> >12    twelve     twelve, twaolve
> >13    thirteen   dertieene
> >14    fourteen   veertieene
> >15    fifteen    vuuftieene
> >16    sixteen    zestieene
> >17    seventeen  zeventieene
> >18    eighteen   achttieene
> >19    nineteen   negentieene
> >20    twenty     twintig
> >30    thirty     dartig, dertig
> >40    forty      feertig
> >50    fifty      fuuftig
> >60    sixty      sestig
> >70    seventy    seventig
> >80    eighty     tachentig
> >90    ninety     tnegentig
> >100   hundred    'onderd

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: spellings.

Ron wrote:

Gary,

>There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
>the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
>'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
>natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
>a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
>something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
>speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
>'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
>English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
>surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
>word.

Lowlands Saxon has _Rügg_ [rYC] 'back' (usually misspelled as _Rüch_, vs
plural _Rüggen_ ['rYgN=]) and _Brügg_ [brYC] (usually misspelled as
_Brüch_, vs plural _Brüggen_ ['brYgN=] -- Hello! Can you say "final
fricativization"?).

When I was living in South Yorkshire in Northern England, I used to live
in
a place called Worsbrough Bridge, which was commonly known by the locals
as
the, 'brigg,' referring to the bridge part of the name.

In this part of Yorkshire, there is a dialect of English spoken, known
as
,"Broad Yorkshire." I have often wondered if this dialect is in any way
related to the frisian language and its curved vowel sounds. Fior
example,
my Uncle Alan would often pronounce school as skoo-il. The word, 'team,'
as
another example would be pronounced as tie-em. Other examples evade me
at
this present time as I have been away from the area for quite a while.
However, it would be interesting to see if any other members could shed
any further light on this observation.

Regards
David Elsworth.

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E]

Criostoir asked:

> By the way, Marco - does Frisian or Zeelandic have the
> grammatical possibility "I ain't not never done nowt"
> (I didn't do it [HEAVILY EMPHATIC]) that we do in
> Nottingham English? (Although I should write it as "A
> yenn not nevuh dunn noewt" to be faithful to the
> phonology.)

I cannot tell for Frisian, but in Zeelandic you can say
something like "Ik è dat nooit nie gedae" (litt. I have
not never done that). It might be Standard Dutch
as well ( only colloquial I guess).

Gary wrote:

> I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the natural
> development of the word in Scots, rather than
> a Norse loan

I believe you right away! I was told it was a Norse
loan by a very proud and 'nordic-orientated' Shet-
lander... I don't have the right sources here to
check that...

> I think Scots uses
> something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
> speakers if that's horribly misspelt!)

I frequented the 'Brig o' Blair', a pub in Blairgowrie,
when I lived in Coupar Angus a few years ago.
Older Zeelandic has _brigge_ for bridge. There is
a village called _brigdamme_ ('bridge at the dam')
only a few km's from where I live.
So we've got:

Zeelandic - Scots - Shetlandic - English
brigge - brig - ? - bridge
rik - ? - rigg - (ridge)

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: margl <margaret_luck at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E] = th vs v or f

From: Criostoir O Ciardha  wrote -
Gary and Ron discuss the use of [v] and [f]
overpowering original /th/. This is something in
England that has spread exponentially, largely because
of the London-based media. It is now very common to
hear younger Nottingham English speakers (of which I
am one) saying "wotch yuh maaf" for "wotch yuh maath"
(watch your mouth). "th" rather than "dh" seems to be
more easily affected.

The same goes for the shift from terminal [l] to a [w]
sound, although Nottingham in particular received a
large wave of Polish migration after the war and I
have often wondered if this change was brought about
as a result.

I haven't seen much evidence of Australians confusing
/th/ with [v] or [f], Ron. My fiancee doesn't do it,
and she's moved between New South Wales, Tasmania and
latterly Western Australia her whole life. I never
seen any examples of it in Kalgoorlie where I live,
although the town is considered quite "ocker Aussie"
(i.e., retaining unaffected pronunciations) in its
dialect. I haven't heard it in Perth when I visit that
city once every couple of months either. There is a
huge dialect difference between Western Australia and
the eastern states (which is now being diluted due to
television).

I have found that a lot of Australians DO confuse 'th' with 'f' or 'v'.
In one of my stories, a six year old girl spelt 'with' as
'wiv'; her mother was most upset and kept saying that of course she knew
how to spell the word; however both of her
parents say 'wiv' all the time, and obviously do not realise that they
do so.  The father is Polish and the mother Dutch.

In another incident, I was helping a 13 year old with reading.  She had
a lot of trouble dsitinguishing 'th' and 'ff'.  I asked
her to spell 'pith' and she wrote 'piff'; I had to repeat the word 4
times before she worked out what I was asking.  She
also is Polish.

English is one of very few languages that has the 'th' sound.  I believe
Icelandic is another.

best wishes

Marg

[Margaret Luck]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 29 16:08:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:08:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.090814.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 29.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.28 (02) [E]

on 29/6/02 1:23, John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk> wrote

> Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
>
>> So we get:
>>
>> English:                Lowlands
>> Mainland Scots:         Lawlands
>> Ulster Scots:           Lallans
>> Shetlandic:             Laich Laands
>
> I think it's worth pointing out here that _laich_ is a general Scots
> word, not
> uniquely Shetlandic.
I can confirm that. The old Advocates Library in Edinburgh Scotland
(founded
by James IV) had a storage area set below the main library still known
in
the 1950's as The Laich Hall when I briefly worked there.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."
>>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 29 16:16:02 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:16:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.29 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.091602.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Gary,
>
> > There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
> > the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
> > 'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
> > natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
> > a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
> > something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
> > speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
> > 'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
> > English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
> > surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
> > word.
>
> Lowlands Saxon has _Rügg_ [rYC] 'back' (usually misspelled as _Rüch_,
vs
> plural _Rüggen_ ['rYgN=]) and _Brügg_ [brYC] (usually misspelled as
> _Brüch_, vs plural _Brüggen_ ['brYgN=] -- Hello! Can you say "final
> fricativization"?).
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Unless I'm mistaken, "ruck" in English "rucksack" (knapsack, backpack)
is from the same root.  And "rucksack" has been borrowed into Russian as
"ryukzak."

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Kevin,

_Rucksack_ is a Swiss Alemannic loanword in German, from _Ruggsack_
(which would be *_Rückensack_ if it were Standard German, *_Rüggsack_ or
*_Rüchsack_ if it were Lowlands Saxon).  Alemannic varieties, especially
those of the south (mostly Switzerland, some in far southwestern German
and in farwestern Austria) did not umlaut as much, and _Rugge_ or _Rugg_
are the words for 'back'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 18:13:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:13:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.30 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.111327.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Leslie Decker" <leslie at volny.cz>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.29 (02) [E]

On a slightly tangential note, does anyone know the basis for the
Russian
'brjuki' meaning 'trousers?'  It seems to me to have come from a
Germanic
source (Dutch 'broek' English 'breeches, britches').  Maybe from
sailors?
The 'i' is just a plural ending.

Thanks,

Leslie Decker

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.29 (02) [E]

A chairde,

Re: all this discussion of "rugg" versus "back" - a
very common dog breed in Australia (indeed, my next
door neighbour has one) is a "ridge back" (because it
has an extra "back" (ridge) of fur atop its back),
thereby bringing both lexical variants together and
illustrating the way they are used in standard English
at least.

Interesting how such things evolve.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Chris.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Leslie!  Nice to hear from you (above).

Too bad I don't have access to Mueller's Russian dictionary right now,
because it tends to give fairly good etymological information.

Off the top of my head, my first guess was that Russian _brjuki_
'trousers' (plural form only, theoretically from *_brjuk_) is a Dutch
loan (< _broek_), possibly from the time of Tzar Pjotr I ("Peter the
Great," 1672-1725) who tried to turn Mother Russia into a Western lady
and championed things Dutch (where "Western" equaled "Dutch" for some
time, as it did in Indonesia and Japan).  Phonologically and
historically speaking, this would make sense, kind of ...

Modern English _breeches_ ~ _britches_ comes from Old English (*_brööke_
*_breeke_ *_breec(h)e_ >) _brêc_, the umlauted plural form of _brôc_
(thus is, technically speaking, a double plural form, Old + Modern).
The singular form was still used in Middle English.  The Old Saxon
cognate is _brôk_ (probably pronounced like or similar to OE _brôc_).  I
am not aware of this word surviving in Modern Lowlands Saxon, the direct
descendant of Old Saxon.  If it existed, I would expect *_Brook_
*[bro.Uk] ~ *_Brauk_ *[bra.Uk], with the plural forms *_Bröök_ *[br9.Ik]
~ *_Bräuk_ [brO.Ik] (< */brouke/).  I am not sure about this word's
survival in Middle (Lowlands) Saxon either.  If it survived, the plural
form would probably be *_broke_ ~ *_bröke_ (= */brouke/ ~ /bröüke/) at a
time when umlauting was beginning to be shown orthographically.  Old
(High) German has _bruoh_ which I would expect to be _Bruch_, pl.
_Brüche_, if it survived.  (Modern Lowlands Saxon and Standard German do
have such words, but they denote something different: 'low-lying, marshy
land (along) a brook or another type of watercourse)' (related to
'break'?)

This group of words (including Old Norse _brók_) is supposed to go back
to Germanic *_brôks_ (= */brook+s/, or */brouk+s/?, consider Modern
Icelandic _brók_ [broUk] 'underpants').

As you may know, the medieval Hanseatic Trading League that dominated
the Baltic Sea and had contacts with Russia, had Middle Saxon as its
lingua franca.  It is therefore not entirely inconceivable that Russian
borrowed the umlauted plural form of the Saxon word at that time, which
might explain _brjuki_ rather than (Dutch _broek_ >) *_bruki_.  However,
this is merely a guess to be considered.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 18:22:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:22:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.30 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.112231.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 30.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I wrote about Russian _brjuki_ 'trousers':

> This group of words (including Old Norse _brók_) is supposed to go back
> to Germanic *_brôks_ (= */brook+s/, or */brouk+s/?, consider Modern
> Icelandic _brók_ [broUk] 'underpants').

And then there is, of course, the third possibility of _brjuki_ going
all the way back to notable but until recently understated Swedish,
i.e., Eastern Viking, "Russ" (cf. Finnish _ruotsalainen_ 'Swedish'),
presence and influences in parts of Russia.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 22:50:56 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:50:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.30 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.30.JUN.2002.155056.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.30 (01) [E]

That dog would be a "Rhodesian Ridgeback". They do have a "ridge" of
hair
that stands up on their backs. They are probably fluent in Afrikaans,
too...

Cheers,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Gabriele,

I am told that there *is* such a thing as an "Australian ridgeback dog,"
apparently an Australian sub-breed of the so-called "Rhodesian ridgeback
dog."  The latter apparently does not hail from Zimbabwe (formerly
Rhodesia) at all but from South Africa, where it was bred from the
so-called "Hottentot dog" (i.e., Nama/Damara dog) and used to be known
as "African lion dog."

It so happens that last night I watched a part of a dog show (being
allergic and having to admire pets indirectly once in a while) and could
see that it is only a seeming ridge.  The hair does not really stand
up.  There is merely two strips of darker fur on either side of a
narrower light-colored one along the backbone, which creates the optical
illusion of a ridge.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  1 03:04:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:04:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.05.31 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.200414.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.29 (01) [E]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Grammar
>
... explore the Lowlandic uses of 'to
>do' as an auxiliary verb. ...

Hello Ron, hello Lowlanders !

"daun da:jt 't le:ren" is the Eastern Friesland Low Saxon pendant to
English "learning by doing" but thats not all I want to tell.
You received my message telling about the meaning "to give, to fetch, to
offer...." for "daun" in Eastern Friesland LS.
The other, "normal" meaning is "to do" and it can also have a meaning
like "to do somebody a harm".
In EFLS we don't use "daun" to the same extent as in other LS variants.
You
may find some cases of emphatizing by use of "daun" (dat 't dor o:k
re:gen
da:jt h??r [h_a+accent-circonflexe_r*] 'k n??it [n_a-Umlaut_i_t*] docht
- I
didn't think it is raining there, too) but these are exceptional.
Sometimes a postponed "de:" [the conjunctive form of "daun"] can
replace "wul" expressing a wish (wen 't man re:gen wul = wen 't man
re:gen
de:) but if preponed it is always "wul 't man re:gen", never: "de: 't
man
re:gen". The last use will be regarded as "wrong" or "ironical".
Much more interesting however is that "d??n we:sen" or "d??n hebben"
[d_o+accent-aigu_n*] have developed apart from their original meaning.
They
mark an event to be over, a work to be done and more like that as a
time-
aspect.
For example "nu: is 't singen d??n" is a saying which means "it's over
now;
there is no more chance; there is no more left..."
"wen 't e:ten d??n is" - after meal; "wen ji: 't e:ten d??n heb(ben)t" -
after You finished meal.
"h??i [h_a-Umlaut_i*] het d??n" - he is ready, he finished.
"f??r [f_o-Umlaut_r*] fandoegh he' wi: 't d??n" - we finished for today;
we
are ready with our today's work.
"wen 't gr??ven d??n is, k????ew [k_2xo-Umlaut_e_w*] tuwwels setten" -
as soon
as digging is done [unfortunately the English translation with "done" is
confusing] we can plant potatoes.
These "d??n we:sen"/"d??n hebben" forms seem to be perfect-tense but I
tend
to believe this as an error based on the forms of "daun" (to do)not
considering the special developement. If that is right they are
future-II-
tenses.

* a help if the letters aren't displayed correctly

Kind regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  1 03:06:10 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 20:06:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.05.31 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.31.MAY.2002.200610.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.30 (02) [E/LS]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Ick heff j??????rs noch dat Probleijm, mien'n Dialekt tau schriewn; ick
>will
>oobvers nich soauw'n  Dwaarsl???er  woaar'n as platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE,
>de
>dat heel allerbest un akkraat vers??????t, blauts: leesen kann'st emm ne.-

Moin Fiete !

Wat is d'r so: stuer an mi:n sghri:fw??s ?  Du: k??enst d??i r??echt
t??ikens un
hest o:k al teksten s??in, d??i so: sghre:ven b??nt. 'T magh wal 'n
enkelt m??l
wat fr??md tau l??ten man so gro:t is f??ken dat ferske:l tau wat d??i
l????
w??ent b??nt gor n??it. Du: must ??its tau d' o:stfr??isk t??l wennen.
Wen dat hier in 't "Lowlands-L"-li:st wat anners let dan lieght dat d'r
an,
dat ik d??i t??ikens f??r l??engt n??it mit "e-mail" st??ren kan un o:k
dat
r??echt t??iken f??r "gh" ga:jt n??it. Dor mau' 'k mi: dan mit : un gh
helpen.  'N anner pro:ble:m is dat mit d??i uemlu:den un aksenten. D??i
worden o:k ni r??echt upw??st man dat is blo:t in d' li:st so: (wen d'r
wel
helpen kan sghul h' dat gaue daun !).

kumpelment
Holger

Hello Fiete !

What is Your problem with my orthography ?  You know the correct letters
and have seen texts written this way. Sometimes it might look strange
but
often the difference to what people are used to is low. Of course You
have
to consider it is Eastern Friesland language.
If it looks somewhat different here in the "Lowlnds-L"-list this is due
to
the fact that I cannot write the letters for long vowels (letter with a
stroke above)or the letter for "gh" (a "g" with a bow above) by e-mail.
I
use letter+: or gh instead. An other problem is that words with "Umlaut"
or
letters with accents from my mails aren't displayed correctly but that
is a
problem in the list only (I couldn't solve yet - if anyone has an idea,
please help !).

Greetings
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 16:43:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:43:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (01) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.094330.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.29 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> I would like to invite you to help me explore the Lowlandic uses of 'to
> do' as an auxiliary verb.  I am interested in finding out what its
> development, spread and permutations are, but I would be interested in
> other aspects as well.  Approaching it from the angles of Modern Low
> Saxon (LS, "Low German"), Missingsch (M, i.e., German dialects on Low
> Saxon substrates) and Modern English, and noticing considerable
> similarities, I cannot help wondering if we are dealing with a Saxon
> feature or if the feature is more widely spread than that.
Hello lowlanders,
In Flanders  we use the word "doen" verfy often.
Some explination:

doen, deed, gedaan(?doan) (Also doegen, deeg, gedegen , but archaic)
-geven : Zijn uitgezette geld doet hem 100 frank 's jaars.
-helpen, baten: De medicijnen zijn slecht, 't en doet al niet.
                Die mest doet veel in den akker.
-Indruk maken op het hart: Dat doet mij groot plezier.
                           Dat doet mij verdriet.
                           Dat doet mij iets.
-bezorgen, verschaffen: Doe mij nog ne keer van dezelfde wijn.
                        Iemand eere doen.
-kopen of verkopen: De markt doen.
                    De winkel doen.
-Er zich mee bezighouden: Ergens zijn werk af (van) doen(maken).
-leiden naar: Een dief naar 't gevang doen.
              Een osse naar de markt doen.
-zich tonen; Dien hond doe lelijk.
             Da kleedje doe schone.
             Die sieraden doen wel.
             Dien boom doet slecht in de hof.
-iemand volgen, overeenkomen met: Hij doet altijd met de winnaars.
                                  Hij deed mee met de Amerikaanders.
                                  Hij kan't niet doen met zijn broere.
                                  Ge moet nie vrezen, 't beest zal u
niet
doen.
-tot het einde: Ze doen om gedaan en komen dan eten.
-iets willen verrichten: Die rijpe pruimen doen om open te bersten.
                         Het heeft al twee weken gevrozen en't doet nog
niet
om te dooien.
- bevestigen... ontkennen: ik doe, ik en doe.
*Ge gaat dat niet kunnen. Ik doe (Jawel)
*Ge zijt ziek. 'k En doe. (toch niet)
*Ik ? da nie gezeid. G' en doet. (Je hebt het wel gezegd)
*Ik zal zelve goan. G'en doet. (Ge gaat niet gaan)
*Hij woont daar niet meer. Hij doet. (Hij woont daar wel nog)
*Hij kan Frans. Hij en doet. (Hij kan geen Frans)
*Zij gaan verhuizen. Z'en doen. (Zij gaan niet verhuizen)
*Hij heeft u dat gezeid, doet hij niet? (Is het niet zo?)
*Ze gaat trouwen. Doe ze? (Is het waar?)
*Het heeft hier geregend. Doe't? (Is dat zo?)
*Dat zal kwalijk uitvallen. 't En doet. (neen)
*Ge meint dat ik liege maor 'k en doe . (Ik lieg niet)
*Dat is vreemd, en doet't niet? (Is het niet zo?)
*De bakker lacht met u. Hij en doet, hij en doet. (Toch niet)
*'t doet en doe niet (Neen het is niet zo)
*Ja 't en doe niet (Neen dat is niet waar)
* 't doet 't doet (Tochwel)
* 't doet en doe niet ((Het is niet zo)

-Het doet  (onpersoonlijk gebruikt)
  Het doet geld (Het komt op geld aan)
  Het doet nood (Het is noodzakelijk)
- aandoen, achterdoen, afdoen, binnendoen, indoen, omdoen ,oordoen,
opdoen,
overdoen, uitdoen, weerdoen...
-vuldoeninge  (plezier)
-doening (kalandize, werk,huis): Die caf? ? veel doeninge
                                 D'er is veel doeninge in da steedje.
                                 Die boer ?t een schone doeninge.
-doeninge (luim): Hij is in zijn doeninge (Hij is goed gehumeurd)

...
Groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.29 (01) [E]

Ron wrote:
>
>I would like to invite you to help me explore the Lowlandic uses of 'to
>do' as an auxiliary verb.  I am interested in finding out what its
>development, spread and permutations are, but I would be interested in
>other aspects as well.

Just to drop a wild card in here, can anyone explain the North East
Scots form _div_, which is used only as an auxiliary verb, distinct from
_dae_ (pronounced 'dee' in the North East, and which should, strictly
speaking, be spelt <dui>) which is used with the other meaning of Eng.
'do'. For example, you can say 'fit div ee dee wi 'is?' (What do you do
with this?) but not 'fit dee ee div wi 'is'?. Scots dictionaries refer
to _div_ as 'emphatic and interrogative', but in my experience of
'broad' North East Doric, 'div' and 'dee' are mutually exclusive (I have
heard only young urban speakers using 'dee' as an auxiliary verb) and I
suspect that the lexicographical perception of a connotation of emphasis
comes from areas where the verb form is dying out - as it appears to
have done in most parts of Scotland, although it is also used in
Geordie. (On the other hand, it may be that use of auxiliary _do_ is
usually emphatic or interrogative anyway, even in English, and that this
is a roundabout non-technical way of saying that _div_ is a
modal/auxiliary form.)

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 16:45:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:45:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.02 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.094531.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 02.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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From: Patricia Beving <beving.patricia at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Middle English and Dutch literature

Dear Lowlanders,

In order to complete a diachronic study on Middle English and Dutch, I
would be interested in finding an online version of Floris and
Blanchefleur
in these 2 languages and if possible in French,  alongside with an
English  translation of Vanden Vos Reynaerde (Reynard the fox) . Thank
you
for your help.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 16:47:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 09:47:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.02 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.094751.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Patricia Beving <beving.patricia at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: Vanden Vos Reynaerde

Dear Lowlanders,

Could any of you help me translate the following lines from Vanden Vos
Reynaerde in English or French?

Alse ghi wilt, so willic gaen. (12)

Lieve neve, ic wille gaen

Daer af willic mi in biechten dwaen.'

Eer hi doe conste in corten woerden
Ghespreken: 'Ic wille mi begheven,'
Daer dedic Ysingrijn bi mi
Up dat huus clemmen boven.
Ic seide, ic wilde hem gheloven,
Wildi crupen in die valdore,
Dat hire soude vinden vore
Van vetten hoenren sijn ghevouch.
Ter valdore ghinc hi ende louch,
Ende croep daer in met vare,
Ende began taste n harenthare.
Nu willic prouven, dat ic mach
Te hove bringhen een baraet,
Dat ic voer de dagheraet
In groter zorghen vant te nacht.

Waendi dat ic wille nemen
Eene loghene up mine langhe vaert?

Ic peinsde, worde hi ons zeere,
Dat wil alle waren verloren.

Waendi, dat ic u die Leye
Wille wijsen in die flume Jordane?

Maerghin, als die zonne up gaet,
Willic te Roeme om aflaet;
Van Roeme willic over zee.

Hi wille hem betren, ic segghe u hoe:
Reynaert wille maerghen vroe
Palster ende scerpe ontfaen
Ende wille te Roeme gaen,
Ende van Rome, danen wille hi over zee,
Of God wilt, ghi sult mi gheleeden
Ende mijn vrient Belin de ram;

MERCI !!!
Best
Patricia

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  2 22:27:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 15:27:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.02 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.152729.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 02.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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From: "Roman Laryushkin" <puka_2000 at mail.ru>
Subject:

Dear Lowlanders!

I need to a Dutch-English and English-Dutch dictionaries which I could
download and print, i.e. not on-line ones. If anyone can advice me
something, please.

Sincerely,
Roman Laryushkin.

Simferopol - Ukraine.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 03:36:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2002 20:36:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.2.JUN.2002.203634.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Dear Lowlanders,

Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
...

Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
(Wat daaist d?? hier taau zitn?)
"Wat dost thou here to sit?"
What do you keep sitting around here for?

Wat sall dat T??chs noch r?mtauliggen daun?
(Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
"What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?

Is there anything similar in other language varieties?

Thanks for all the other feedback on this topic.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 16:20:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 09:20:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.03 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.092034.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Reuben Epp" <repp at silk.net>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
> ...
> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
> (Wat daaist d?? hier taau zitn?)
> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>
> Wat sall dat T??chs noch r?mtauliggen daun?
> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>
> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>
> Thanks for all the other feedback on this topic.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Reuben Epp <repp at silk.net writes:

In Plautdietsch we would say in similar vein to the foregoing
two sentences:

Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
Woo kjemmt daut, daut du hia noch sette deist?

Wat sall dat T??chs noch r?mtauliggen daun?
Woo kjemmt daut, daut dit Zeig (Stoff) hia noch romligje deit?

Considerable variations in wording are understandably prevalent,
but use of the 'to do' verb is equally prevalent in Plautdietsch too.
For example:
'Put this in your pocket,' is frequently worded as: 'Doo dit en
diene Fupp.'  Some consider such use of 'doo' to be child talk,
and would prefer to say 'St?akj (staikj) di dit en diene Fupp.'

A similar use of 'to do' in Plaudietsch adult terms is:

If you continue to walk here....
Wan du wiedahan hia gohne deist ....

Cheers!

Reuben Epp

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Thanks, Reuben.

That's also how it is rendered in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):

> Woo kjemmt daut, daut du hia noch sette deist?
Wo k?mmt dat, dat du hier noch sitten deist?

> Woo kjemmt daut, daut dit Zeig (Stoff) hia noch romligje deit?
Wo k?mmt dat, dat dat T??g hier noch r?mliggen deit.

Semantically, these are a bit different: (1) they express "how come
...?" (rather than disapprovingly "what ... for?"), and (2) they don't
*necessarily* express disapproval of the duration, could also express
surprise.

I am not familiar with the specific pattern as given by Hermann-Winter
in Northern dialects, specifically expressing (undesirably) extended
action:

> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
> (Wat daaist d?? hier taau zitn?)
* Wat deist du hier to sitten?

> Wat sall dat T??chs noch r?mtauliggen daun?
> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
* Wat s(ch)all dat T??gs noch r?mtoliggen doon?

This also works:

> If you continue to walk here....
> Wan du wiedahan hia gohne deist ....
Wenn du wiederhen hier gahn deist, ...

Using the pattern discussed (apparently implying disapproval), it should
theoretically be ...

* Wan du hia too gohne deist, ...
* Wenn du hier to gahn deist, ...
If go keep on walking here ...

> 'Put this in your pocket,' is frequently worded as: 'Doo dit en
> diene Fupp.'  Some consider such use of 'doo' to be child talk,
> and would prefer to say 'St?akj (staikj) di dit en diene Fupp.'

That would be similar in the Northern dialects:

Do dit/d?t in dien Fick.
Stick/Steck dit/d?t in dien Fick.

However, I'm not too shure if the use of _doon_ here would be considered
childish.  _Doon_ is very widely spread and neutral, very much like
English "to put."

Do dat Book up 't Riech.
Still/Stell dat Book up 't Riech.
Put (~ place) the book on the shelf.

Do de Blomen in 't Water.
Still/Stell/Stick/Steck de Blomen in 't Water.
Put (~ place) the flowers into (the) water.

Do d'n Kassen ?nner dien Bedd.
Still/Stell/Stick/Steck/Schuuv' d'n Kassen ?nner dien Bedd.
Put (~ shove) the chest under your bed.

In fact, I feel that the versions with _doon_ sound more natural, the
alternative ones with specific verbs perhaps a touch _geel_ ("yellow,"
i.e., "High"-German-tinted).  Others may disagree.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 21:39:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 14:39:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.03 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.143931.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: JL <jl at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.02 (02) [E]

> In order to complete a diachronic study on Middle English and Dutch, I
> would be interested in finding an online version of Floris and
> Blanchefleur

Perhaps gives searching with 'Google'for: 'Floris ende Blancefloer'
some results.

[Jakob Liek]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 22:07:55 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 15:07:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.03 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.150755.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Dear Lowlanders,

I responded to Reuben Epp's Mennonite Low Saxon (Plautdietsch) input:

> That's also how it is rendered in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):
>
> > Woo kjemmt daut, daut du hia noch sette deist?
> Wo k?mmt dat, dat du hier noch sitten deist?
>
> > Woo kjemmt daut, daut dit Zeig (Stoff) hia noch romligje deit?
> Wo k?mmt dat, dat dat T??g hier noch r?mliggen deit.
>
> Semantically, these are a bit different: (1) they express "how come
> ...?" (rather than disapprovingly "what ... for?"), and (2) they don't
> *necessarily* express disapproval of the duration, could also express
> surprise.
>
> I am not familiar with the specific pattern as given by Hermann-Winter
> in Northern dialects, specifically expressing (undesirably) extended
> action:
>
> > Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
> > (Wat daaist d?? hier taau zitn?)
> * Wat deist du hier to sitten?
>
> > Wat sall dat T??chs noch r?mtauliggen daun?
> > (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
> * Wat s(ch)all dat T??gs noch r?mtoliggen doon?
>
> This also works:
>
> > If you continue to walk here....
> > Wan du wiedahan hia gohne deist ....
> Wenn du wiederhen hier gahn deist, ...
>
> Using the pattern discussed (apparently implying disapproval), it should
> theoretically be ...
>
> * Wan du hia too gohne deist, ...
> * Wenn du hier to gahn deist, ...
> If go keep on walking here ...

In fairness to Reuben's input, I ought to add that in the second example
...

Wat sall dat T??chs noch r?mtauliggen daun?
(Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
* Wat s(ch)all dat T??gs noch r?mtoliggen doon?

... _r?mliggen_ (Plautdietsch _romligje_) 'lie around' already implies
disapproval, which renders _Wo k?mmt dat, dat dat T??g hier noch
r?mliggen deit?_ (Plautdietsch _Woo kjemmt daut, daut dit Zeig (Stoff)
hia noch romligje deit?_) 'How come this stuff is still lying around
here' close in meaning to _Wat sall dat T??chs noch r?mtauliggen daun?_,
although apparently it does not have element of implying an unduly long
period, which _r?mtauliggen daun_ does.

Also, _Wat ...?_ in this context clearly expresses disapproval, much
like English _What ... for?_ (What's that stuff supposed to keep lying
around for?), while _Wo k?mmt dat, dat ...?_ (Plautdietsch _Woo kjemmt
daut, daut ...?_) does not necessarily express disapproval, much like
English "How come ...?"  Furthermore, _Wat ...?_ here asks for a
purpose, while _Wo k?mmt dat, dat ...?_ only asks for a reason or
cause.  In other words, the difference is "For what purpose are you
keeping that stuff lying around here?" vs "What is the reason that that
stuff is lying around here?"

I would render Mecklenburg/Western Pomerania dialect _Wat deist du hier
tau sitten?_ as _Wat deist du hier r?msitten_ 'What are you sitting
around here for?' or better 'What do you keep sitting here around for?',
where _r?m..._ '... around', '... about' adds the element of disapproval
in that it implies 'sitting around idly/unnecessarily/uninvitedly'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun  3 23:36:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 16:36:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.06.03 (04) [LS]
Message-ID: <MON.3.JUN.2002.163619.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.05.31 (05) E/LS

Moin, Holger,

dat liggt  an mij'n Unf?higkeit, Dij'n Idee vonne heel eigen Schrift
?mtausetten. Du hesst mi all sau veel h?lpen, blauts: mij d?cht, ick b?n
j?mmers noch tau d??sig. Ick krieeg door j?mmers noch keejn Hand an.
Dijn
Teiken s?nnd  amenn  ne leesboor f??r mij.

"Language varieties"?- Schrivvst Du mij opp'n direktemang, kann ick't
leesen; ?ver Ron sien Wech geiht't nu mool einfach ne. Ick kann Di woll
ook
denn leesn, overs blaut, ass ikk in Freesland ween hevv, f??r'n St?cker
wat
Joor.

t'is heel verloorn!

t' allerbest un' kumplementen

Fiete.

PS: Ick sghall Di woll geern mool'n Prouw gee'm, op't direkte Wech, RE.
or
Fwd.  DS

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 15:14:33 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 08:14:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (01) [A/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.081433.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "" <johnno55 at excite.com>
Subject: E/a vowel shift in leeglanner languages

Hello to all

I have been fascinated by the discussions about the various languages
and their varients in our leeglanners group.

Some many years ago as a young undergraduate I had to do some research
into the vowel shift e to a in Afrikaans.

I have noticed that many of our contributors use an "e" where I would
have used an "a". Laaglanders not leeglanners.

In Afrikaans there appears to be a shift to using "a" not "e" - laagte
instead of leegte for a hollow in the topography of an
area. The same is true of aardappel instead of erdappel for a potato.

Yet there is no doublet or move in some cases: Afrikaans perd (German
Pferd) as against Dutch paard.

Have the lowlands languages settled on their usages or is there still a
shift occuring in these?

If any of our contributors can cast some light on this I shall be very
grateful.

Ek s? sommer baie dankie by voorbaat

John le Grange

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject Phonology

Dag, John, en welkom!

I was under the impression that Dutch and Afrikaans did *not* shift (at
least not in most cases), while most Low Saxon (Low German) variants
(and also German) underwent a shift called umlauting, where a vowel is
fronted and raised by a non-low front vowel that occurs in the next
syllable; e.g., German _Kran_ 'crane' > _Kr?ne_ 'cranes', and _Blatt_
'leaf' > _Bl?tter_ 'leafs' (where nowadays the <?> is pronounced like
<e>, short or long).  In Low Saxon this applies less extensively (e.g.,
_Kraan_ > _Kraans_) and not in as straightforward a fashion.  For
instance, you get /blad/ _Bladd_ [blat] (in Germany unfortunately mostly
written <Blatt> because they want to make it look like German) 'leaf',
'newsletter', 'newspaper', where, depending on the dialect, the plural
form may be _Bl?der_ ~ _Bleder_ ['ble:d3] or rounded as well to _Bl?der_
['bl?:d3] ~ ['bl9:d3] or _Bl??d'_ [bl?:.d] ~ [bl9:.d] (< _Bl?de_ <
_Blade_).

As for Dutch and Afrikaans _laag_, I thought there was no shift, as also
in the Scots cognate _law_ and the (rounded) English cognate _low_,
which are apparently derived from Old Norse _l?gr_ (where the _-r_ is a
suffix). The Northern Low Saxon cognate _leeg_ ~ _leeg'_ is one of those
unfortunate cases where German-oriented spelling is misleading in that
most systems do not distinguish long vowels from diphthongs.  _Leeg_ has
a diphthong rather than a long vowel, is pronounced as [lE.IC] or
[lE:IG] and really ought to be written as something like _leyg_ ~
_leyg'_ or _leig_ ~ _leig'_ or _l?ig_ ~ _l?ig'_.  German does not have
such a diphthong and no way of writing it, so, in their endeavor to make
Low Saxon of Germany look as much as possible like German dialects, they
simply ignored the difference between non-German-sounding diphthongs and
long vowels.

It would help if you noted down and presented to us cases in which you
observe <aa> vs <ee>, so we could discuss them.

(By the way, Low Saxon _leeg_ is semantically interesting in that it
means both 'low' (and also 'flat', thus _Leegland_ 'low-lying, flat
land') and 'bad' (> 'inferior', 'evil', 'naughty').)

> Yet there is no doublet or move in some cases: Afrikaans perd (German > Pferd) as against Dutch paard.

Yes, this is an interesting case in that Afrikaans is different from
Dutch.  In Low Saxon, 'horse' is _Peerd_, again with a diphthong:
[pE.I3t], and the plural form is _Peerd'_ (usually written _Peer_ in
Germany) [pE:I3d] ~ [pE:I3] (< _Peerde_ ['pE.I3de]).

However, Low Saxon also has genuine long /ee/; e.g., _Weeg'_ [ve:.G] ~
[vE:.G] 'ways' (< _Weg_ [vEC] 'way'), and _geven_ ['ge:vm=] ~ ['gE:vm=]
'to give'.  So you also get minimal pairs; e.g., _leev'!_ [le:.v] ~
[lE:.v] 'live!' vs _leev'!_ [lE:Iv] 'love!'.  (Some academic distinguish
the long vowel by putting a little hook underneath it, while some
writers use <?> for the long /ee/; thus _l??v'!_ vs _leev'!_.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 17:10:07 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:10:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]
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From: "Randy Elzinga" <frisiancow at hotmail.com>
Subject:

Ron wrote:
>(By the way, Low Saxon _leeg_ is semantically interesting in that it
>means both 'low' (and also 'flat', thus _Leegland_ 'low-lying, flat
>land') and 'bad' (> 'inferior', 'evil', 'naughty').)

Can't something similar be said about English "low" as well?  For
example in the opposition between high culture vs. low culture, with the
implication that low culture is somehow inferior.

Also, before I knew what people meant when they referred to Low German,
I
was under the impression that it was some form of (High) German used for
informal purposes, as opposed to German used for literary or formal
purposes.  Other people with whom I have spoken about Low Saxon (Low
German) have had similar impressions of the term "Low German".

I would guess the association of high and low with superior and inferior
in English has something to do with metaphorical usage of spatial
terminology (ie. up/down, high/low) in describing rank within certain
social groups, perhaps rooted in a literal usage of the spatial
terminology, where people with a greater rank, regarded as superior, are
located physically higher (How many monarchs have put their thrones in
holes?).

Randy Elzinga
frisiancow at hotmail.com

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 17:29:06 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:29:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2002.06.04 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.102906.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language politics

Randy Elzinga wrote under "Semantics":

> Also, before I knew what people meant when they referred to Low German,
> I
> was under the impression that it was some form of (High) German used for
> informal purposes, as opposed to German used for literary or formal
> purposes.  Other people with whom I have spoken about Low Saxon (Low
> German) have had similar impressions of the term "Low German".

That goes to show how well the propaganda worked, never mind that the
two descended from two different languages (Old "High" German and Old
Saxon respectively), used to be considered two separate languages until
about some time in the early 18th century (which is why Martin Luther
commissioned a Low Saxon bible translation) and is largely
incomprehensible to German speakers (including North Germans) unless
they are extensively exposed to it (like to any related foreign
language).  On the Netherlands side the dialects there used to be
officially considered dialects of Dutch until official recognition
(which is less absurd considering the close relationship between the
two).  Many Low Saxon writers in Germany still kept referring to it as
_Spraak_ (or German _Sprache_) even after the 18th century, especially
during the 19th century revival movement,* even throughout the "dark
era" (from the end of WW II till about 1980) when in many parts of
Northern Germany the language virtually went underground on account of
widespread disapproval and denigration.  Calling it a language is now
again considered completely kosher and even correct.  The people you
have communicated with must be poorly informed and behind the times,
considering that Low Saxon (Low German) has now been *officially*
declared a language in both countries for a few years now.

* See, e.g., Klaus Groth's poetry
(http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun  4 22:22:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 15:22:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.4.JUN.2002.152241.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Hoi John, hi all

John wrote:
<<<Yet there is no doublet or move in some cases:
Afrikaans perd (German Pferd) as against Dutch
paard.<<<

Just a *very* little part of the puzzle. One that
certainly needs confirmation by other people on the
list.
Old Dutch _e_ before _r_ got stretched to a very open
/e:/. In Middle Dutch two forms are attested:
_pa(e)rt_ and _pe(e)rt_.
Modern *Standard* Dutch _paard_ is due to influence of
the Holland and Zeeuws dialects in which the result of
the /e/+r > open /e:/ and /a:/ merged. (Cf. Van Loon).
I think most dialects spoken in Flanders still have
the long (and open) /e:/ sound.
paard: _peerd_ (or _pjeed_)
paarden: _peerde_
paardje: _perdje_ (short /e/)

Best regards

Frank

=====
"De perto ningu?m ? normal!" - Caetano Veloso

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 02:37:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 19:37:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (05) [E]
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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (01) [A/E]

Ron answered to John's <johnno55 at excite.com>
message >Subject: E/a vowel shift in leeglanner languages

The Northern Low Saxon cognate _leeg_ ~ _leeg'_ is one of those
>unfortunate cases where German-oriented spelling is misleading in that
>most systems do not distinguish long vowels from diphthongs.  _Leeg_ has
>a diphthong rather than a long vowel, is pronounced as [lE.IC] or
>[lE:IG] and really ought to be written as something like _leyg_ ~
>_leyg'_ or _leig_ ~ _leig'_ or _l???_ ~ _l???'_.  German does not have
>such a diphthong and no way of writing it, so, in their endeavor to make
>Low Saxon of Germany look as much as possible like German dialects, they
>simply ignored the difference between non-German-sounding diphthongs and
>long vowels.

In Eastern Friesland LS we have a long e in _le:gh_. This long vowel is
coloured somewhat by the surrounding consonants but we can't accept it
to
be a real diphthong (we have a system of diphthongs differing from
German).
The system in EFLS is complicated by the existance of two types of long
vowels. The first are simple long vowels, the second are the "stressed"
ones.

>In Low Saxon, 'horse' is _Peerd_, again with a diphthong:
>[pE.I3t], and the plural form is _Peerd'_ (usually written _Peer_ in
>Germany) [pE:I3d] ~ [pE:I3] (< _Peerde_ ['pE.I3de]).
>

For example the singular for "horse" is "pe:rd" the plural is "p??er"
[p_e+accent-circonflexe_e_r]. (The pronounciation of the stressed vowels
is
long rising/short falling as if you are calling somebody distant to you
or
as if you want to attract someones attention.) There are also stressed
diphthongs.

>However, Low Saxon also has genuine long /ee/; e.g., _Weeg'_ [ve:.G] ~
>[vE:.G] 'ways' (< _Weg_ [vEC] 'way')

In EFLS we have sg. "wegh" (short e, in IPA: greek epsilon), pl. "w??gh"
[w_e+accent-circonflexe_gh].

>So you also get minimal pairs; e.g., _leev'!_ [le:.v] ~
>[lE:.v] 'live!' vs _leev'!_ [lE:Iv] 'love!'.

"Live" and "love" in EFLS are distinguished by the vowel resp.
diphthong:
le:ven - to live; le:vend - a) life, b) body; ik le:w - I live; ik l??w
- I
lived; l??if [l_a-Umlaut_i_f] - kind, nice; l??iefd
[l_a-Umlaut_i_e_f_d]- love (~??ie~ is a stressed diphthong).

Regards Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thank you for your very interesting explanation (above), Holger.  I for
one eagerly lap up all you kindly share about Eastern Friesland Low
Saxon.  So, please, never feel that you are sending your pearls of
wisdom into a black hole!

I think your explanation, in conjunction with various lexical and
idiomatic characteristics we have been discussing on and off, makes it
pretty clear that EFLS occupies a very special place within the
language, certainly a dialect group that is a more loosely bound to the
rest of the language, i.e., not always systematically corresponding to
the other dialect groups, presumably due to a rather strong East Frisian
substrate.  (Might one go as far as comparing it to the position
Shetlandic occupies within Scots?)  Because of this (and because EF
speakers obviously consider their dialects to be very different, hence
the rejection of non-EFLS literature, as recently mentioned), I would be
in favor of SFLS (and also Plautdietsch) establishing its own standards
should the language community ever get it together to unify its
fractions and factions and think in terms of a whole language (which is
doubtful).  However, it would be nice if its standards were compatible
with those of the rest of the language so as to at least facilitate
mutual reading comprehension.

Thanks again for sharing your dialect with us, Holger.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 14:38:21 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 07:38:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.05 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.073821.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]

> Ron wrote:
> >(By the way, Low Saxon _leeg_ is semantically interesting in that it
> >means both 'low' (and also 'flat', thus _Leegland_ 'low-lying, flat
> >land') and 'bad' (> 'inferior', 'evil', 'naughty').)

The same goes for Ze?uws: _leege_ or _leage_ means
both 'low' and 'flat', although under recent Dutch
influence, forms like _laoge_ and _laege_ become
more and more widespread.
I think that in Dutch _leeg_ originally also meant
'low'.

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 15:58:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 08:58:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.085816.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (04) [E]

Frank Verhoft wrote:

> Old Dutch _e_ before _r_ got stretched to a very open
> /e:/. In Middle Dutch two forms are attested:
> _pa(e)rt_ and _pe(e)rt_.
> Modern *Standard* Dutch _paard_ is due to influence of
> the Holland and Zeeuws dialects in which the result of
> the /e/+r > open /e:/ and /a:/ merged. (Cf. Van Loon).
> I think most dialects spoken in Flanders still have
> the long (and open) /e:/ sound.
> paard: _peerd_ (or _pjeed_)
> paarden: _peerde_
> paardje: _perdje_ (short /e/)

I think it isn't correct that Frank mentioned Zeeuws in
this respect. In all dialects of Zeeuws, 'horse' is _peerd_,
_perd_ or _paerd_.
Some other examples (all three the above spellings,
_ae_, _ee_, _e_, are used, but I just stick to _ae_ for
now):

aerdappel (or _petaote_ in some dialects): potatoe
laerze: boot
aerde: soil
waerd: worth
kaeze: candle
aerm: poor
waerm: warm
etc.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Marco,

It seems to me that what you write _ae_ in Zeelandic is an allophone of
the short phoneme /a/ when it is followed by syllable-final /r/.  It is
also a special allophone in most Low Saxon (Low German) dialect, where
/ar/ tends to be phonetically realized as something close to long /aa/
in Standard Dutch: [a:].  Or it could be a long /aa/ followed by /r/.
Thus, Low Saxon _Arm_ 'arm' is pronounced like English Australian "arm":
[?a:m].

Thus Zeelandic:
laerze /larz@/ ~ /laarz@/ boot
aerde /ard@/ ~ /aard@/ soil
waerd /ward/ ~ /waard/ worth
aerm /arm/ ~ /aarm/ poor
waerm /warm/ ~ /waarm/ warm

The spelling <aer> then, in my opinion, is an attempt at phonetic
representation, is, theoretically speaking, redundant as long as the
reader knows that <ar> or <aar> has that particular pronunciation.

"What about Zeelandic _kaeze_ 'candle' then," you might ask.  I assume
that there is an /r/ underlying (/karz@/ ~ /kaarz@/) but not spelled.
(Cf. German _Kerze_ 'candle')

I tend to favor the theory that it is a short /a/ lenthened by /r/, as
in Low Saxon:

arm /arm/ [?a:m] 'poor' (= Austr. "arm")
harm /harm/ [ha:m] 'harm' (= Austr. "harm")
warm /varm/ [va:m] 'warm'
Hart /hart/ [ha:t] 'heart' (= Austr. "heart")
Karr /kar/ [ka:] 'cart', 'wagon', 'barrow' (= Austr. "car")
Karn /karn/ [ka:n] 'kernel', 'pip', 'nucleus'
Arf /arf/ [?a:f] 'pea'
Kark /kark/ [ka:k] 'church' (= Austr. "to kark")
scharp /Sarp/ [Sa:p] 'sharp' (= Austr. "sharp")
Wark /vark/ [va:k] 'work'
Farken /fark at n/ ['fa:kN=] 'piglet'

Versus *long* /aa/ followed by syllable-final /r/, which is pronounced
quite differently:

Aard ~ Aart ~ Oort ~ Ort /aard/ [?Q:at] ~ [?o:at] 'type', 'kind'
Haar ~ Hoor /haar/ [kQ:a] ~ [ho:a] 'hair'
Baard ~ Baart ~ Boort /baard/ [bQ:at] ~ [bo:at] 'beard'
Aars ~ Oors ~ Ors /aars/ [?Q:as] ~ [?o:as] 'arse', 'ass'
Fahrt ~ Fohrt /faart/ [fQ:at] ~ [fo:at] 'trip', 'drive', 'ride'
Aarn ~ Oorn ~ Orn /aarn/ [?Q:an] ~ [?o:an] 'harvest' (cf. 'earn')
Schaar(d) ~ Schoor(d) /Saar(d)/ [SQ:a(t)] ~ [So:a(t)] 'cliff', 'shard'
Maard ~ Moord /maard/ [mQ:at] ~ [mo:at] 'marten'

And it is pronounced quite differently from /aa/ not preceding /r/:

faken ~ foken /faak at n/ ['fQ:kN=] ~ ['fo:kN=] 'often'
Aas ~ Oos /aas/ [?Q:s] ~ [?o:s] 'carrion', 'evil person'
Hahn ~ Hohn ~ Haan /haan/ [hQ:n] ~ [ho:n] 'rooster'
Maat /maat/ [mQ:t] ~ [mo:t] 'mate'

In several cases where Dutch writes <aar> and you write <aer> in
Zeelandic, Low Saxon has /eir/ (though unfortunately spelled <eer> in
Germany).  Note that /ei/ is realized as /E.I/ or as /a.I/, depending on
the dialect, but in some dialects (e.g., those in the Lower Elbe area)
/eir/ (i.e., /ei/ followed by syllable-final /r/) is pronounced as
though it had a long /ii/: [i:3]; e.g.,

Eerde ~ Eerd' ~ Eer ~ Ier /eird@/ ['?E.Irde] ~ [?E.I3t] ~ [?E:I3]
   ~ [?i:3] 'earth', 'soil'
Peerd ~ Pierd /peird/ [pE.I3t] ~ [pi:3t] 'horse'
Peerde ~ Peerd' ~ Peer ~ Pier /peird@/ [pE.I3de] ~ [pE:I3d] ~
   [pE:I3]~ [pi:3] 'horses'
weerd ~ weert ~ wiert /weirt/ [vE.I3t] ~ [vi:3t] 'worth', 'worthy'
Heern ~ Hiern /heirn/ [he.I3n] ~ [hi:3n] 'herring' (Dutch _haring_,
   dialectal/archaic German _Harung_)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 16:16:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 09:16:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.05 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.091651.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: Translation

Hello Ron / lowlanders,

As it is now approaching Father's Day in the UK, I was interested in how
the
various members of the LLG would say ,"Wishing you a happy Father's
Day," so
I could put the various translations on my father's card.

Regards / groetens,
David Elsworth.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Holidays

Hi, David!  Good to hear from you.

June 16th is Father's Day in the United States, Canada, Argentina,
Panama and Japan as well.

In Germany, Father's Day has been usurping the Christian holiday
Ascencion Day (which is an official holiday), this year on May 9.  To
find out how it is celebrated, please see our own Clara
Kramer-Freudenthal's Low Saxon description (with my translation):
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/himmelfohrt.html

If my father were still alive, I would write (in Northern Low Saxon (Low
German)) this:

     "Mit leve Gr?tens un W?nsch to'n Vadderdag"

("With dear/loving greetings/regards and wishes on Father's Day")

Best wishes to all fathers on Lowlands-L!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 20:23:09 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:23:09 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.132309.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (02) [E]

Ron assumed:

> It seems to me that what you write _ae_ in Zeelandic is an allophone of
> the short phoneme /a/ when it is followed by syllable-final /r/.  It is
> also a special allophone in most Low Saxon (Low German) dialect, where
> /ar/ tends to be phonetically realized as something close to long /aa/
> in Standard Dutch: [a:].  Or it could be a long /aa/ followed by /r/.
> Thus, Low Saxon _Arm_ 'arm' is pronounced like English Australian "arm":
> [?a:m].
>
> Thus Zeelandic:
> laerze /larz@/ ~ /laarz@/ boot
> aerde /ard@/ ~ /aard@/ soil
> waerd /ward/ ~ /waard/ worth
> aerm /arm/ ~ /aarm/ poor
> waerm /warm/ ~ /waarm/ warm

The spelling _ae_ stands for approximately the same
sound as in the English word 'hair' or the French
'populair' rather than the English Australian 'arm'
you mentioned.  It is closer to the e in Dutch 'kern'
than to the a in Aus. Engl. 'arm' anyhow.
This is the case for words where standard Dutch
has [a:] followed by an r. The spelling varies from
_ae_ or _ei_ to _ee_ (paerd, peerd, peird).

In other cases where Dutch has an [a:], Zeeuws
usually has about the same pronounciation
as described above, but in some areas (or in
some specific words outside these areas),
the '[a:]' as in the English word 'deer'. So that
sounds somewhat 'Frisian'. This is usually
spelled as _ea_ or _a?_

North Zeeland/isle of Zuid-Beveland/Dutch:
straete / streate / straat
staee / steae / staan
etc.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Marco.

Either I misunderstood you or you have missed my point.  I did *not*
assume that what in Zeelandic you write <aer> is the same sound as that
in Low Saxon (Low German) <ar>.  In fact, its exact pronunciation is
irrelevant to the discussion; relevant is only that you perceive it as
different.

What I am talking about is not phonetic script (which is to be used for
scientific purposes) but normal orthography based on phonemes (i.e.,
*underlying* phones, as opposed to phonologically produced allophones on
the phonetic surface).  My hypothesis was (and still is) that this
written <ae> before /r/ is really an allophone of the phoneme /a/; i.e.,
it is pronounced "colored" by the following /r/.  Unless you can show me
that *genuine* /ar/ (not /aar/) is pronounced differently, I keep
assuming that what you write as <aer> is underlyingly really /ar/ and
thus ought to be written <ar> in a truly phonemically based system.
Remember that I am not comparing Zeelandic with Dutch, that I have
merely observed what I believe to be a *systematic* parallel between
/ar/ in Zeelandic and /ar/ Low Saxon.

So, what you would need to show me to convince me is that and how
Zeelandic dialects treat the following phonemic sequences differently:

/?r/*
/ar/
/aar/

(* your <aer>, could also be written /?r/, and could also be /aer/ if it
is a diphthong)

By the way, this /ar/ articulation appears to be generally misunderstood
in the Low-Saxon-speaking communities in the Netherlands, which is why
they tend to treat /a/ before /r/ as though it were a separate phoneme
and thus write it <aa><r> (e.g., <aarm>, as opposed to <ao><r> or
<oa><r> for /aar/, e.g., <baord>), likewise phonetically lengthened /a/
before /l/ and nasals; e.g., /al/ <aal> (instead of simply <al> for
[a.l]), /land/ <laand> (instead of simply <land> for [la.nt]).

Writing systems under development for languages so far without official
orthographies tend to be too complicated because the creators do not
(fully) understand the concept of "underlying" and "phoneme" and thus
tend to try to aim at writing "phonetically," which entails trying to
write perceived details that orthographically are redundant.  In my
opinion, this tends to be reinforced by obsessive reference to the
orthographic systems of the respective power languages.  Speakers of
Zeelandic, Low Saxon and Limburgish in the Dutch-dominated areas want to
create writing systems for their languages from a Dutch orthographic
reference point, trying to make Dutch speakers pronounce their languages
more or less correctly when they read them.  Likewise, speakers of Low
Saxon (Low German) and Limburgish in German-dominated areas want to
write their languages in such a way that German speakers can pronounce
them when they read them.  This entails the need to add detail that
would be redundant if the language and its orthography were thought of
as independent, as not beholden to and created for outsiders. (For
instance, an example of a pretty much independent system is that of
Catalan.  While it uses a "typically Romance" writing system, it does
not take Castilian (Spanish), French or Italian orthographies as its
reference points even though it is dominated by these languages.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 20:28:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 13:28:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.132819.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (02) [E]

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.04 (04) [E]
>
> Frank Verhoft wrote:
>
>> Old Dutch _e_ before _r_ got stretched to a very open
>> /e:/. In Middle Dutch two forms are attested:
>> _pa(e)rt_ and _pe(e)rt_.
>> Modern *Standard* Dutch _paard_ is due to influence of
>> the Holland and Zeeuws dialects in which the result of
>> the /e/+r > open /e:/ and /a:/ merged. (Cf. Van Loon).
>> I think most dialects spoken in Flanders still have
>> the long (and open) /e:/ sound.
>> paard: _peerd_ (or _pjeed_)
>> paarden: _peerde_
>> paardje: _perdje_ (short /e/)

In my Flanders region I would spell
peird (ei like in French ?) peirdje (also: perdje- perdjie)

> I think it isn't correct that Frank mentioned Zeeuws in
> this respect. In all dialects of Zeeuws, 'horse' is _peerd_,
> _perd_ or _paerd_.
> Some other examples (all three the above spellings,
> _ae_, _ee_, _e_, are used, but I just stick to _ae_ for
> now):

For peird, we have also : hors (horsen) ros. My city is called
'Roeselare'
(lare= empty space in the woods where horses(roes=ros) could be hold)

> aerdappel (or _petaote_ in some dialects): potatoe
> laerze: boot
> aerde: soil
> waerd: worth
> kaeze: candle
> aerm: poor
> waerm: warm
> etc.

We say:
FL eirappels (patatten)
FL botten (boots) and never laarzen
FL eirde (weireld)
FL kei(r)se  kei(r)si
FL aorme aormi
FL warme warmi

So not quiet the same.
> Regards,
>
> Marco
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Marco,
>
> It seems to me that what you write _ae_ in Zeelandic is an allophone of
> the short phoneme /a/ when it is followed by syllable-final /r/.  It is
> also a special allophone in most Low Saxon (Low German) dialect, where
> /ar/ tends to be phonetically realized as something close to long /aa/
> in Standard Dutch: [a:].  Or it could be a long /aa/ followed by /r/.
> Thus, Low Saxon _Arm_ 'arm' is pronounced like English Australian "arm":
> [?a:m].
>
> Thus Zeelandic:
> laerze /larz@/ ~ /laarz@/ boot
> aerde /ard@/ ~ /aard@/ soil
> waerd /ward/ ~ /waard/ worth
> aerm /arm/ ~ /aarm/ poor
> waerm /warm/ ~ /waarm/ warm
>
> The spelling <aer> then, in my opinion, is an attempt at phonetic
> representation, is, theoretically speaking, redundant as long as the
> reader knows that <ar> or <aar> has that particular pronunciation.
>
> "What about Zeelandic _kaeze_ 'candle' then," you might ask.  I assume
> that there is an /r/ underlying (/karz@/ ~ /kaarz@/) but not spelled.
> (Cf. German _Kerze_ 'candle')
>
> I tend to favor the theory that it is a short /a/ lenthened by /r/, as
> in Low Saxon:
>
> arm /arm/ [?a:m] 'poor' (= Austr. "arm")
FL aormi aorme
> harm /harm/ [ha:m] 'harm' (= Austr. "harm")
> warm /varm/ [va:m] 'warm'
FL  warme
> Hart /hart/ [ha:t] 'heart' (= Austr. "heart")
FL herte
> Karr /kar/ [ka:] 'cart', 'wagon', 'barrow' (= Austr. "car")
FL karre (celtic word)
> Karn /karn/ [ka:n] 'kernel', 'pip', 'nucleus'
FL kerni kerne
> Arf /arf/ [?a:f] 'pea'
FL erwete
> Kark /kark/ [ka:k] 'church' (= Austr. "to kark")
FL kerki kerke
> scharp /Sarp/ [Sa:p] 'sharp' (= Austr. "sharp")
FL skerp skerpe sherpe
> Wark /vark/ [va:k] 'work'
FL werk (arbeid)
> Farken /fark at n/ ['fa:kN=] 'piglet'
FL big (zwijnejong) biggetje fikk'n
>
> Versus *long* /aa/ followed by syllable-final /r/, which is pronounced
> quite differently:
>
> Aard ~ Aart ~ Oort ~ Ort /aard/ [?Q:at] ~ [?o:at] 'type', 'kind'
FL aord (naorie)
> Haar ~ Hoor /haar/ [kQ:a] ~ [ho:a] 'hair'
FL aor
> Baard ~ Baart ~ Boort /baard/ [bQ:at] ~ [bo:at] 'beard'
FL baord
> Aars ~ Oors ~ Ors /aars/ [?Q:as] ~ [?o:as] 'arse', 'ass'
FL ei(r)s
> Fahrt ~ Fohrt /faart/ [fQ:at] ~ [fo:at] 'trip', 'drive', 'ride'
FL vaort
> Aarn ~ Oorn ~ Orn /aarn/ [?Q:an] ~ [?o:an] 'harvest' (cf. 'earn')
...?   We have FL " herfst "(vallen van't blad)(E = autumn) biginning of
the
harvest ?
> Schaar(d) ~ Schoor(d) /Saar(d)/ [SQ:a(t)] ~ [So:a(t)] 'cliff', 'shard'
FL skaore skaori sjgaore
> Maard ~ Moord /maard/ [mQ:at] ~ [mo:at] 'marten'
>
> And it is pronounced quite differently from /aa/ not preceding /r/:
>
> faken ~ foken /faak at n/ ['fQ:kN=] ~ ['fo:kN=] 'often'
FL vaok
> Aas ~ Oos /aas/ [?Q:s] ~ [?o:s] 'carrion', 'evil person'
FL aoze aozi
> Hahn ~ Hohn ~ Haan /haan/ [hQ:n] ~ [ho:n] 'rooster'
FL aone aoni
> Maat /maat/ [mQ:t] ~ [mo:t] 'mate'
FL maot
>
> In several cases where Dutch writes <aar> and you write <aer> in
> Zeelandic, Low Saxon has /eir/ (though unfortunately spelled <eer> in
> Germany).  Note that /ei/ is realized as /E.I/ or as /a.I/, depending on
> the dialect, but in some dialects (e.g., those in the Lower Elbe area)
> /eir/ (i.e., /ei/ followed by syllable-final /r/) is pronounced as
> though it had a long /ii/: [i:3]; e.g.,
>
> Eerde ~ Eerd' ~ Eer ~ Ier /eird@/ ['?E.Irde] ~ [?E.I3t] ~ [?E:I3]
> ~ [?i:3] 'earth', 'soil'
> Peerd ~ Pierd /peird/ [pE.I3t] ~ [pi:3t] 'horse'
> Peerde ~ Peerd' ~ Peer ~ Pier /peird@/ [pE.I3de] ~ [pE:I3d] ~
> [pE:I3]~ [pi:3] 'horses'
> weerd ~ weert ~ wiert /weirt/ [vE.I3t] ~ [vi:3t] 'worth', 'worthy'
FL weirt
> Heern ~ Hiern /heirn/ [he.I3n] ~ [hi:3n] 'herring' (Dutch _haring_,
FL aorink
> dialectal/archaic German _Harung_)
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Regards
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene (Roeselare)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 21:23:20 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 14:23:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.05 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.142320.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

I keep getting server error messages telling me that LL-L cannot be
delivered to the following address:

                  elnmall at corp.earthlink.net

But this address is not subscribed to our list, and the error messages
are becoming quite an annoyance.  I assume that it is someone's
forwarding address and that the owner is still subscribed under a
different address.

I would like the owner to do something about it.  If he or she wishes to
remain anonymous, he or she only needs to unsubscribe (the subscribed
address) at <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
or by sending the message "signoff lowlands-l" to
<listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org>.   He or she could also write to me
(sassisch at yahoo.com), and I will deal with it quietly and without
causing any embarrassment.  (All I need is the name to identify the
subscriber.)  Once unsubscribed, he or she could then, if so inclined,
ask me to resubscribe him or her, again without needing to feel
embarrassed.

Everyone else, please bear this in mind in case you have LL-L mail
forwarded to another address.

This is the time when subscribers in the Northern Hemisphere are just
about ready to take their summer breaks (especially those who study or
teach at colleges).  If you do not wish that LL-L be sent to you while
you are away, please just unsubscribe, and upon your return write to me
or reapply via our form (http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/) and
indentify yourselves as returning subscribers.

Some of you keep making the same mistakes in their posting submissions.
The most frequent error is not putting one's name on one's submission.
Remember, anonymous or semi-anonymous postings are not permitted, and
consistent absence of identification will eventually result in one's
submissions being ignored.

Rules regarding subscription and submission are found at this address
(in English, Limburgish, Low Saxon (Low German) and Dutch):

           http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/

I would like to take this opportunity to welcome those who joined us
recently.  They are from Belgium (Brussels), Cyprus (Mesachrio), France
(?), Germany (Griepswohld/Greifswald), Russia (Vladimir), Ukraine
(Simferopol) and the USA (Chandler, IL), and one new subscriber (who
joined us today) chose not to share her whereabouts.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 23:51:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:51:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.05 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.165154.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Those of you who are interested in older language varieties *and* in
cooking (and/or eating) will have a field day or two with the following
online sources:

Keukenboek
(UB Gent Hs. 1035, 15th century, Middle Dutch)
(http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/serrure.htm)

A lovely sample for those of you who like to eat swan neck and head:

"Den hals van den swane -- suldi snijden al omtrent
tfel bi den scouderen, ende treckent uut metten hoofde, maect
een faerzel van swijnen vlessche ghesoden met xii eyeren,
cappet te gadere, dan wrivet soffraen, pepere, ghinghebare,
caneele ende nagelkins, ghetempert met wijne, deesemt
te gadere, ende die dodere van vi eyeren binnen juwen
faersele ende dan vult al tfel van den halse toten hoofde,
ende bendet. Ten hende dan steket lanx duer den hals ende
duer thooft, ende maect deegh van bloemmen van eyeren
ende doreret omtrent den hals, ende dan legget voor een
cleen vier."

***

A Middle Low Saxon (Low German) Cookbook (15th century)
http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~gloning/mndk.htm

A sample: a "good, dry" vinegar made from crab apples and sloe berries
(! sounds like it would make your teeth feel _slee_):

"Item wyltu maken eynen guden etick van watere, so nym slen unde
holteppel. Brick se aff twysschen beyden vrowendaghen yn deme hervest,
jomer m?er jo lever. Stot se cleyne in eyneme moser. Make dar?et klumpe
also wuste, legge se up brede unde sette se yn eynen heten backoven, dar
brot yn ghebacken sy, unde lat se darynne stan so lange, also de oven
warm ys. So ys dat eyn gud droghe etyck."

***

Two fifteenth-century cookery-books (in Middle English)
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/c/cme/cme-idx?type=longhead&byte=3356093

A sample: Mussels in the shell:

"Muscules in Shelle. ? Take and pike faire musculis, And cast hem in a
potte; and caste hem to, myced oynons, And a good quantite of peper and
wyne, And a lite vynegre; And assone as thei bigynneth to gape, take hem
from ?e fire, and serue hit forthe with the same broth in a dissh al
hote."

***

Liber Cure Cocorum (14th century? Middle English)
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/lcc/
Facsimile

***

Het Eerste Nederlandsche Gedrukte Kookbek,
Brussel, Thomas Van der Noot, c. 1510
(Middle Dutch, facsimile)
http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/For_Translation/Het_Eerste_Nederlandsche/Het_Eerste_Nederlandsche.html

***

Forme of Cury (14th century, Middle English, facsimile)
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/foc/
(A rhyming cookbook!)

***

Pages from The Closet of Sir Kenelme Digbie
http://realbeer.com/spencer/digby.html
(1669, English)

***

These and other interesting antique treasures can be found at Greg
Lindahl's site:
http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/food.html

Enjoy!

Reinhard/Ron
(Time to get ready some dinner)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun  5 23:53:56 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:53:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.05 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.5.JUN.2002.165356.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 05.JUN.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.05 (03) [E]

>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Translation
>
>Hello Ron / lowlanders,
>
>As it is now approaching Father's Day in the UK...
>David Elsworth.
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Holidays
>
>Hi, David!  Good to hear from you.
>
>June 16th is Father's Day in the United States, Canada, Argentina,
>Panama and Japan as well.
>
>In Germany, Father's Day has been usurping the Christian holiday
>Ascencion Day (which is an official holiday), this year on May 9.  To
>find out how it is celebrated, please see our own Clara
>Kramer-Freudenthal's Low Saxon description (with my translation):
>http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/himmelfohrt.html

Hello David, hello Ron, hello to all the others, too !
As Ron told in Germany there is a mixing up Christian Ascension Day with
Father's Day but in parts of Eastern Friesland we have a further (but
more
and more vanishing)tradition associated with this day apart from both
the
other meanings. It is said to be due to an old legend about the wedding
of
a "hovedling's" [chief's] daughter but it really seems to be an older
custom deriving from pre-Christian time. Children collect moss and
flowers
of different size and colours to lay pictures with. These are
called "bru:dpad" or German "Brautpfad" (bride's path). Sometimes they
are
just laid in the sand, sometimes in a sand-filled fruit-case to get
exhibited beside the house-door or on the pavement in front of the
house.
In recent years it is made a competition and the winner is offered a
small
gift by a jury.

Kind regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 14:38:59 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:38:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.06 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.073859.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 06.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.05 (05) [E]

Frank wrote:

> In my Flanders region I would spell
> peird (ei like in French ?) peirdje (also: perdje- perdjie)

This spelling is not uncommon in Zeeland
as well. It stands for the exact same pronoun-
ciation as the _ae_ that is most commonly
used in Zeeland. So:

aerappel = eirappel
paerd = peird
aerde = aerde
waereld / w?reld = weireld

But:

waerme <-> warme
aerme <-> aorme

Ron wrote:

"Either I misunderstood you or you have missed my point.  I did *not*
assume that what in Zeelandic you write <aer> is the same sound as that
in Low Saxon (Low German) <ar>.  In fact, its exact pronunciation is
irrelevant to the discussion; relevant is only that you perceive it as
different.

What I am talking about is not phonetic script (which is to be used for
scientific purposes) but normal orthography based on phonemes (i.e.,
*underlying* phones, as opposed to phonologically produced allophones on
the phonetic surface).  My hypothesis was (and still is) that this
written <ae> before /r/ is really an allophone of the phoneme /a/; i.e.,
it is pronounced "colored" by the following /r/."

You're absolutely correct. I think I didn't
take enough time to read your posting
thoroughly enough. That's propbably because
I always try to read all postings during a
coffee-break from work ;-)

Although in most Zeelandic dialects, there is
no real opposition between the pronounciation
of <ae> before r and <ae> in other positions,
the dialects of Zeeland Flanders and Zuid-Beve-
land show that your assumption is right.
Taking these dialects and the dialect of Walcheren
as an example:

Walcheren - Z-Beveland - Z-Flanders - Dutch
straete - streate - straote - straat
vraege - vreagen - vraogn - vragen
aerm - aerm - aerm - arm
Gentenaer - Gentenaer - Gentenaer - Gentenaar

but there are some exceptions:

baerd - baerd - baord - baard*
mae - mae - mao - maar
dea (!) - dea (!) - dao - daar**
wea (!) - wea (!) - wao - waar**
maerte - maerte - maorte - maart
(frinzen) - aorebezems - (frenzn) - aardbeien

*Perhaps this is because 'baard' originally
had a short 'a': _bard_.

**Note that _dea_ and _wea_ (or _d?_ and
_w?_) are the only words in the Walcheren
dialect I can think of that have _ea_

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 14:40:55 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:40:55 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.06 (02) [E/S]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.074055.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 06.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Andy \(Scots-Online\)" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: Grammar [E/S]

John M. Tait wrote:
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.05.29 (01) [E]

>Just to drop a wild card in here, can anyone explain the North East
>Scots form _div_, which is used only as an auxiliary verb, distinct from
>_dae_ (pronounced 'dee' in the North East, and which should, strictly
>speaking, be spelt <dui>) which is used with the other meaning of Eng.
>'do'. For example, you can say 'fit div ee dee wi 'is?' (What do you do
>with this?) but not 'fit dee ee div wi 'is'?. Scots dictionaries refer
>to _div_ as 'emphatic and interrogative', but in my experience of
>'broad' North East Doric, 'div' and 'dee' are mutually exclusive (I have
>heard only young urban speakers using 'dee' as an auxiliary verb) and I
>suspect that the lexicographical perception of a connotation of emphasis
>comes from areas where the verb form is dying out - as it appears to
>have done in most parts of Scotland, although it is also used in
>Geordie. (On the other hand, it may be that use of auxiliary _do_ is
>usually emphatic or interrogative anyway, even in English, and that this
>is a roundabout non-technical way of saying that _div_ is a
>modal/auxiliary form.)

Gaun bi the SND _div_ is uised emphatic. The 'v' haes come aboot bi
analogy wi _hiv_ the empahtic furm o _hae_.
Grant & Dixon 1921 says _div_ is interrogative an for ordinar emphatic.
As tae the Geordie furm the EDD gies _div_  is uised whan the wird is
afore a vouel or a mute _h_. Afore a consonant _de_ is uised.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 20:34:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:34:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.06 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.133424.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Patricia Beving <patricia.beving at libertysurf.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.05 (06) [E]

Thank you for your welcoming message. the new French subscriber (from
Versailles)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 20:36:01 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:36:01 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.06 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.133601.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Patricia Beving <patricia.beving at libertysurf.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Holidays" 2002.06.05 (03) [E]

In France, we would simply say "Bonne f?te papa" as a direct address
Patricia

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 20:59:25 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 13:59:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (05) [E/F]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.135925.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.05 (01) [E]

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]
>
> > Ron wrote:
> > >(By the way, Low Saxon _leeg_ is semantically interesting in that it
> > >means both 'low' (and also 'flat', thus _Leegland_ 'low-lying, flat
> > >land') and 'bad' (> 'inferior', 'evil', 'naughty').)
>
> The same goes for Ze?uws: _leege_ or _leage_ means
> both 'low' and 'flat', although under recent Dutch
> influence, forms like _laoge_ and _laege_ become
> more and more widespread.
> I think that in Dutch _leeg_ originally also meant
> 'low'.

Dat tink ik net, it Holla^nske wurd _leeg_ komt fan _ledig_, in wurd
dat troch myn etymologysk wurdboek fan in Ald-Germaansk *lithug- komt
(en de^r't de betsjutting net alheel du'dlik fan is, yn 'e rjochting fan
"frij, net bu^n" alteast..) Besibbe is it Fryske "liddich" en de^rfan
o^flaat : "leech".
(_liddige tiid_, mar _in leech kopke_, bg.)

In oar wurd is Frysk _leech_, Nl _laag_ ND _leig_/_leeg_.
Dit komt fan Ald-Germaansk *la^gi-, en yn it Holla^nsk hat de -i gjin
omlu^d bewurke, en it de oare neamde talen a^l. Dit wurd is besibbe
oan Nl _liggen_, Frysk _lizze_.

Mei freonlike groetenis,

Henno Brandsma

-----

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Yn it Nedersaksysk (Nederd?tsk, Platd?tsk) fan Noarddd?tsl?n sizze wy
_leddig_ ['lEdIC] foar "leech" (Holl?nsk _ledig_, Ingelsk _empty_,
_vacant_, D?tsk _ledig_*, _leer_).

(* no gewoanlik "niet getrouwd," "unmarried;" mar Nedersaksysk _leddig_
(1) 'leech', (2) "niet getrouwd")

Freonlike groetenis!
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 23:53:50 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:53:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.165350.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]

Hi, Randy, Ron,

the Low Saxon "leeg" in our dialecct only stands for "bad, naughty",
near to "evil".

I'm sure, Ron knows and just is making a joke with it.

We always use to say "sied [si:d]" for "low"; and in Upper German there
is
the "Sied-lung [si:dlung]" for those locations poor people had to
emigrate
to for establishing a farm.

Regards

Fiete.

-----

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Semantics

Moin, Fiete!

Yes, I do know, and ... well, I'm only somewhat joking.  Let's write it
down to "poetic license with a slight smirk"

It is quite correct to say that the meaning 'low(-lying)' and '(low and)
flat' for (_lage_ > /leig'_) _leeg_ has gotten lost in many Low Saxon
(Low German) dialects of Northern Germany.  However, it has not gotten
lost in *all* of them.  Take a look at various dictionaries, and you
will see that these glosses are always listed besides the derived
meaning ('low' >) 'inferior' (> 'bad' > 'badly behaved' > 'evil').

Yes, I used to say _Siedland_ instead of _Leegland_.  However, (1) many
people, including speakers of Low Saxon, did not understand _Siedland_,
and (2) _Siedland_ to me denotes a smaller area, a stretch of low-lying
land (usually below sea level) that is prone to flooding, also a marsh,
or a depression (something I'd call _Niederung_ in German, which, sure,
you *could* stretch to denote a large area).  (The adjective _sied_
[si:t] ~ _sied'_ [si:.d] means 'shallow' first and foremost.  I always
thought it was related to German _seicht_ 'shallow'.)

So we get:

English:                Lowlands
Mainland Scots:         Lawlands
Ulster Scots:           Lallans
Shetlandic:             Laich Laands
W. Frisian:             Lege Lannen
Saterland E. Frisian:   Lijge Lounde
Mooring N. Frisian:     L?ige L?nje
Amrum N. Frisian:       Liach Lunen
Dutch:                  Laagland
Zeelandic:              Laege Landen
Afrikaans:              Lae Lande
Stellingwarf Low Saxon: Lege Lanen
Twente Low Saxon:       Leeglanden
Mennonite Low Saxon:    L?aglaund
Northern Low Saxon:     Leegland (Siedland?)
Limburgish:             Liege Lenj ~ Leig Laan

So, for the sake of consistency and mutual comprehension I just choose
to use _Leegland_, _Leeglannen_ and _Leeglanner_, certainly don't
*dictate* it (wouldn't give you bad marks or a slap with my ruler on
your fingers if you chose to say _Siedland_).  And, yes, admittedly,
_Leegland_ is vaguely reminiscent of English "badlands" (an arid, rugged
region), and I kind of enjoy the "naughty" connotation too (Reinhard
being related to Reynard [de Voss]).  :)

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun  6 23:59:20 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 16:59:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammatik" 2002.06.06 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.165920.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]

Ron, Leeg- un Lowlanders,
Jo: givv't hier ook:

"Dat hevv'k tau liek w?sst"
( Hab' ich auch gleich gewusst)
(I got to know it at the same time)

oder:
"Hei is tau wegloopen"
(Dann ist er weg gelaufen)
(Then he run away; [perhaps: "immediately"))

Ditt "tau" kunn obers ook'n "door, in disse Wies, Tiid" ween, d?cht mi.
(Das "zu" k?nnte aber auch, v?llig anders als vorher, bedeuten: "Da,
damals,
dann")
("tau" could be very different from "to do": "then, at that time").

'n Oobend

Fiete.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 00:01:26 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 17:01:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.06 (08) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.6.JUN.2002.170126.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: "phonol?gy" 2002.06.05 (02)

Hi,

Marco evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl wrote:

....Some other examples (all three the above spellings,
>_ae_, _ee_, _e_, are used, but I just stick to _ae_ for
>now):
>
>aerdappel (or _petaote_ in some dialects): potatoe
>aerze: boot
>aerde: soil
>waerd: worth
>kaeze: candle
>aerm: poor
>waerm: warm....

Very similar in our dialect:

aierd: soil (but too: "die Grund", "the (female) ground")
waierd: worth
kaierz. candle

but:
aarm: poor
waarm: warm  (Subst.: "de Waarmst", "the warm thing").

Op Ron siin Anter koom ick woll looter tr?ch, door is'n heel B?lt
fiegeliinschen un, f??r mi, neu'n Kroom inne.

Regards

Fiete.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 15:04:48 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 08:04:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (04) [D/E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.080448.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammatik" 2002.06.06 (07) [E/LS]

"Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>:
>Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]
>
>Ron, Leeg- un Lowlanders,
>Jo: givv't hier ook:
>
>"Dat hevv'k tau liek w?sst"
>( Hab' ich auch gleich gewusst)
>(I got to know it at the same time)

Isn't this more like "I knew it (knew it was like that) right away /
immediately" ?

Could this "tau" correspond to Dutch "toen", or even "toch"? In
Dutch I'd say (assuming I understand the meaning of the original
correctly):
"Ik wist het toch meteen al" (of: "... gelijk al").
Of:
"Toen wist ik al hoe het was / hoe het zat / hoe het in elkaar zat"

>oder:
>"Hei is tau wegloopen"
>(Dann ist er weg gelaufen)
>(Then he run away; [perhaps: "immediately"))

>Ditt "tau" kunn obers ook'n "door, in disse Wies, Tiid" ween, d?cht mi.
>(Das "zu" k?nnte aber auch, v?llig anders als vorher, bedeuten: "Da,
>damals,
>dann")

Dutch "toen" has that meaning too.

>("tau" could be very different from "to do": "then, at that time").

I think so.

Het WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal) zegt over "toen":
==
TOEN ? daarnaast (thans nog gewest. en in spreektaal) TOE ?, bijw.
en voegw. Mnl. toe, toen. De vormen toe, toen zijn door sandhi uit
doe, resp. doen ontstaan, b. v. in de verbinding ende doe, waaruit
enddoe, entoe. Zie verder Mnl. W., DOE en de etym. wdb.
==
en dan, bij trefwoord DOE:
==
DOE, bijw. Mnl. doe, mnd. d?, ohd. dhuo, dho, mhd. duo, do, os. ?uo,
?o, eene afl. van den stam van het aanwijzend vnw. die, verg. ook
daar en dan. Daarnaast, met een reeds oud suffix, Doen, mnl. doen,
mnd. don. Thans verouderd.
==

Er lijkt geen verband te zijn met het werkwoord "doen".

PS. Sommigen op de lijst herkennen misschien mijn naam. Tussen 1995
en 2000 las ik deze lijst met tussenpozen ook al, en schreef soms
ook wel iets. Ik ben recentelijk weer mee gaan lezen.

--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 21 May 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Ruud,

> Could this "tau" correspond to Dutch "toen", or even "toch"? In
> Dutch I'd say (assuming I understand the meaning of the original
> correctly):
> "Ik wist het toch meteen al" (of: "... gelijk al").

Ik gl??v', Du hest dat recht.  In annere neddersasassische
(nedderd??tsche) Dialekten seggt wi in d?sse F?ll ook "dunn" or "donn"
("doen" or "don" up de nedderlandsche Schrievwies' schreven).

>"Dat hevv'k tau liek w?sst"
>( Hab' ich auch gleich gewusst)
>(I got to know it at the same time)

Ik w??r seggen: "Dat hev 'k dunn gliek(s)/foorts w?sst."

Kannst ook seggen "Dat hev 'k denn gliek(s)/foorts w?sst."

>"Hei is tau wegloopen"
>(Dann ist er weg gelaufen)
>(Then he run away; [perhaps: "immediately"))

Ik w??r seggen: "He is dunn weglopen."

Kumpelmenten!

Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 14:49:53 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 07:49:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Introduction" 2002.06.07 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.074953.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "yi yi yathawtaradaewe" <ngwekhin at asia1.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.06 (08) [E/LS]

Dear sir

Good day! Thank you very muvh for all lcetures notes. I would like to
study evertime.i hope I will understand GRADUALLY.I WILL TRY SO HARD.

SINCERELY

 NGWE KHIN

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Introduction

Lowlanders,

Ngwe Khin has just joined us from Cyprus.  Going by the name, it seems
that Myanmar (Burmese) _Nay kaung-par-dey_ is as appropriate a welcome
as is Greek _Xa?ro pol?_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 14:53:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 07:53:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.07 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.075329.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 07.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: Lexicon

Sorry, all of You,

I've tried the "eight" , "ought" , "acht", "eigen", "echt", "?chten".- -
-
No one interested at all.

New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but: "horse" (and
"hengist") in modern English.

What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most times!

I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to convince me! "HORSE"
seems much older.

Bis denne

Fiete.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 14:51:42 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 07:51:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language politics" 2002.06.07 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.075142.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: Language Politics?

In a recent article in the Times called The Englishing of the Earth it
was
suggested that the Netherlands was considering holding all further
education in English.

Along with a number of other factual flaws in the article I considered
this to be one as well.

I'm sure many of our members can shed some light on the question of
whether there is there any truth in this.

I am aware that  much further education uses English  because many (if
not
most) research papers are published in it.

Please enlighten me.

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  7 18:40:22 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 11:40:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.07 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.114022.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 07.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

Once in a while subscribers ask on the List or privately about learning
basic concepts of phonology (or just want to find out what phonology is
and how it differs from phonetics).

Below please find a short list of more or less convenient resources that
can help you get started.

Best wishes,
Reinhard/Ron

***

ONLINE:

Phonology
http://www.celt.stir.ac.uk/staff/HIGDOX/STEPHEN/PHONO/PHONOLG.HTM

De klank van Nederland
Onze taal
http://www.onzetaal.nl/dossier/tongval/t01.html

Methods of synchronic linguistic analysis
(Encyclop?dia Britannica Article, if you can access it):
http://www.search.eb.com/eb/article?eu=119040&tocid=35098&query=phonology

***

OFFLINE:

Understanding Phonology
Carlos Gussenhoven, University of Nijmegen, The Netherlands, and HAIKE
JACOBS, Free University of Amsterdam, The Netherlands; 304 pp.; 2
linecuts;
0-340-69218-9

An Introduction to Phonology (Learning About Language)
Francis Katamba, Addison-Wesley Pub Co; ISBN: 058229150X; (November
1989)

A Course in Phonology
Iggy Roca, Wyn Johnson, Aggy Roca, Blackwell Publishers; ISBN:
0631213465; (February 1999)

Phonology : Analysis and Theory
Edmund Gussmann, Cambridge University Press; ISBN: 0521574285; (March
2002)

An Introduction to Phonetics and Phonology
(Blackwell Textbooks in Linguistics, 9)
John Clark, Colin Yallop, Blackwell Publishers; ISBN: 0631194525; 2nd
edition (July 1995)

Fundamentals of Phonetics: A Practical Guide for Students
(with FREE Audio CD)
Larry H. Small, Allyn & Bacon; ISBN: 0205273319; 1 edition (November 13,
1998)

***

Useful definitions from the online version of the _Encyclop?dia
Britannica_:

PHONOLOGY:
study of the sound patterns that occur within languages. Some linguists
include phonetics, the study of the production and description of speech
sounds, within the study of phonology.
Diachronic (historical) phonology examines and constructs theories about
the changes and modifications in speech sounds and sound systems over a
period of time. For example, it is concerned with the process by which
the English words "sea" and "see," once pronounced with different vowel
sounds (as indicated by the spelling), have come to be pronounced alike
today. Synchronic (descriptive) phonology investigates sounds at a
single stage in the development of a language, to discover the sound
patterns that can occur. For example, in English, nt and dm can appear
within or at the end of words ("rent," "admit") but not at the
beginning.

PHONETICS:
the study of speech sounds and their physiological production and
acoustic qualities. It deals with the configurations of the vocal tract
used to produce speech sounds (articulatory phonetics), the acoustic
properties of speech sounds (acoustic phonetics), and the manner of
combining sounds so as to make syllables, words, and sentences
(linguistic phonetics).

PHONEME:
in linguistics, smallest unit of speech distinguishing one word (or word
element) from another, as the sound p in "tap," which separates that
word from "tab," "tag," and "tan." A phoneme may have more than one
variant, called an allophone (q.v.), which functions as a single sound;
for example, the p's of "pat," "spat," and "tap" differ slightly
phonetically, but that difference, determined by context, has no
significance in English. In some languages, where the variant sounds of
p can change meaning, they are classified as separate phonemes-e.g., in
Thai the aspirated p (pronounced with an accompanying puff of air) and
unaspirated p are distinguished one from the other.
Phonemes are based on spoken language and may be recorded with special
symbols, like those of the International Phonetic Alphabet. In
transcription, linguists conventionally place symbols for phonemes
between slash marks: /p/. The term phoneme is usually restricted to
vowels and consonants, but some linguists extend its application to
cover phonologically relevant differences of pitch, stress, and rhythm.
Nowadays the phoneme has a less central place in phonological theory
than it used to have, especially in American linguistics. Many linguists
regard the phoneme as a set of simultaneous distinctive features, rather
than as an unanalyzable unit.

ALLOPHONE:
one of the phonetically distinct variants of a phoneme (q.v.). The
occurrence of one allophone rather than another is usually determined by
its position in the word (initial, final, medial, etc.) or by its
phonetic environment. Speakers of a language often have difficulty in
hearing the phonetic differences between allophones of the same phoneme,
because these differences do not serve to distinguish one word from
another. In English the t sounds in the words "hit," "tip," and "little"
are allophones; phonemically they are considered to be the same sound
although they are different phonetically in terms of aspiration,
voicing, and point of articulation. In Japanese and some dialects of
Chinese, the sounds f and h are allophones.

MORPHOLOGY:
in linguistics, study of the internal construction of words. Languages
vary widely in the degree to which words can be analyzed into word
elements, or morphemes (q.v.). In English there are numerous examples,
such as "replacement," which is composed of re-, "place," and -ment, and
"walked," from the elements "walk" and -ed. Many American Indian
languages have a highly complex morphology; other languages, such as
Vietnamese or Chinese, have very little or none. Morphology includes the
grammatical processes of inflection (q.v.) and derivation . Inflection
marks categories such as person, tense, and case; e.g., "sings" contains
a final -s, marker of the 3rd person singular, and the German Mannes
consists of the stem Mann and the genitive singular inflection -es.
Derivation is the formation of new words from existing words; e.g.,
"singer" from "sing" and "acceptable" from "accept." Derived words can
also be inflected: "singers" from "singer."

MORPHEME:
in linguistics, the smallest grammatical unit of speech; it may be a
word, like "place" or "an," or an element of a word, like re- and -ed in
"reappeared." So-called isolating languages, such as Vietnamese, have a
one-to-one correspondence of morphemes to words; i.e., no words contain
more than one morpheme. Variants of a morpheme are called allomorphs;
the ending -s, indicating plural in "cats," "dogs," the -es in "dishes,"
and the -en of "oxen" are all allomorphs of the plural morpheme. The
word "talked" is represented by two morphemes, "talk" and the past-tense
morpheme, here indicated by -ed. The study of words and morphemes is
included in morphology (q.v.).

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 00:47:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2002 17:47:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.7.JUN.2002.174754.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammatik" 2002.06.06 (07) [E/LS]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.02 (05) [E]
>
>Ron, Leeg- un Lowlanders,
...
>oder:
>"Hei is tau wegloopen"
>(Dann ist er weg gelaufen)
>(Then he run away; [perhaps: "immediately"))
>
>Ditt "tau" kunn obers ook'n "door, in disse Wies, Tiid" ween, d?????? mi.
>(Das "zu" k??????e aber auch, v??????g anders als vorher, bedeuten: "Da,
>damals,
>dann")
>("tau" could be very different from "to do": "then, at that time").
>
>'n Oobend
>
>Fiete.

Hello Fiete !
I tend to believe this "tau" isn't the infinitive-mark but corresponds
to
the word "do:" in Eastern Friesland LS meaning "at the time when; in the
past; when.
Some examples:
"dat was do: as 't so: 'n bu:stergh we:er west het" (it happens at the
time
when the weather was so bad)
"do: ji: mi: sachent, le:p' ji: wegh" (when you saw me you ran away)
"Tau" in EFLS normally is the infinitive-mark but we know one different
use:
School-children say about their homework: "dat he' wi: tau m??ergen up"
(that we have to do for/until tomorrow);
"h??i het hum tau m??ergen n??yeght" (he has invited him for tomorrow).
In our
region this has moved into informal German as "zu" replacing "f??r":
"Das haben wir zu morgen auf"; "er hat ihn zu morgen eingeladen".
In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "st??n" (to stand) or "g??n"
(to
go) with an infinitive:
"wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
over I can't find any example.

Regards
Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Holger:

> In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "st??n" (to stand) or "g??n" > (to
> go) with an infinitive:
> "wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
> theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
> over I can't find any example.

This seems to be the construction in Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German)
I had described earlier.  Do you think so?

> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
> ...
>
> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
> (Wat daaist d?? hier taau zitn?)
> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>
> Wat sall dat T??chs noch r?mtauliggen daun?
> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>
> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?

Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?

*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten?

*Wat sal d?i budel noch r?mtauliggen daun?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 19:22:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:22:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.08 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.122241.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 08.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]
>
>Hi, Randy, Ron,
>
>the Low Saxon "leeg" in our dialecct only stands for "bad, naughty",
>near to "evil".
>
>I'm sure, Ron knows and just is making a joke with it.
>
>We always use to say "sied [si:d]" for "low"; and in Upper German there
>is
>the "Sied-lung [si:dlung]" for those locations poor people had to
>emigrate
>to for establishing a farm.
>
>Regards
>
>Fiete.

Hello Fiete !
In Eastern Friesland LS the term "le:gh" denotes "low" but not (or
rarely) "bad". The derived word "l??ghd" [l_e+accent-circonflexe_gh_d]
or "le:ghde" denotes an area of land lying "low", "on a lower niveau
than
the surrounding". "Le:ghm??er" [l_e:_gh_m_o+accent-aigu_e_r] is the
German "Niederungsmoor" (sorry, I don't know the English term).
"Le:ghland/er" is understood without any problem as well as
"le:ghd????ts"
(Low German)if you don't say "plat". However for the last most people
today
would use the loan "ne:derd????ts".

Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 19:23:40 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:23:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.122340.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.04 (02) [E]
>
>Hi, Randy, Ron,
>
>the Low Saxon "leeg" in our dialecct only stands for "bad, naughty",
>near to "evil".
>
>I'm sure, Ron knows and just is making a joke with it.
>
>We always use to say "sied [si:d]" for "low"; and in Upper German there
>is
>the "Sied-lung [si:dlung]" for those locations poor people had to
>emigrate
>to for establishing a farm.
>
>Regards
>
>Fiete.

Hello Fiete !
In Eastern Friesland LS the term "le:gh" denotes "low" but not (or
rarely) "bad". The derived word "l??ghd" [l_e+accent-circonflexe_gh_d]
or "le:ghde" denotes an area of land lying "low", "on a lower niveau
than the surrounding". "Le:ghm??er" [l_e:_gh_m_o+accent-aigu_e_r] is the
German "Niederungsmoor" (sorry, I don't know the English term).
"Le:ghland/er" is understood without any problem as well as
"le:ghd????ts" (Low German)if you don't say "plat". However for the last
most people today would use the loan "ne:derd????ts".

Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 19:27:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:27:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.122714.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dear All

Fiete wrote:

"New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but:
"horse" (and
"hengist") in modern English.

What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most
times!

I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to
convince me! "HORSE"
seems much older.

Bis denne

Fiete."

Is this regarding etymology? I don't have an etymology
dictionary with me at present, but as far as I can
remember 'Pferd' etc. comes from an early Latin loan,
whereas 'horse' is the old Germanic word still found
in German 'Ross' etc. I'm not sure where 'pair' comes
from, but I would think that German 'Paar' is cognate.
Seeing as the German word has a simple 'p' and not a
'pf' I would think that this is a much more recent
loan, and probably from French? (sorry, my French
isn't too hot, so please excuse me if I'm wrong - the
word 'se-par-ate' springs to mind as being connected).
With this reasoning I wouldn't expect the two to be
related.

Hope this helps

Gary

----------

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.07 (03) [E]

> From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but: "horse" (and
> "hengist") in modern English.
>
> What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most times!
>
> I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to convince me! "HORSE"
> seems much older.
>
> Bis denne
>
> Fiete.

It wurd "paard" (yn it Holla^nsk) en de farianten u't it Nederdu'tsk,
Sieuwsk, Limburchsk binne lienwurden u't it Latyn, nl paravere^dus (=
hynder. _horse_) of leavver u't foarmen de^rfan yn Romaanske talen. Ek
besibbe: Fra^nsk palefroi, (--> Ingelsk _palfrey_).
It oarspronklik Germaanske wurd is *khrussa.
Mei metatesis (ferwiskeling fan lu^d en r) waard dit yn it Aldfrysk
_hors_,
dat noch fuortlibbet yn Skylger "hos". It normale wurd foar _horse_ is
no yn it Westerlauwer Frysk _hynder_ < *hingst-diar  (_stallion
-animal.._), en ek it Seelsterk hat no Hoangst.
It Ingels bewarret ek _horse_, wylst it Holla^nsk noch _ros_ hat (mar
net
mear as it meast gebru^kte wurd)

Mei freonlike groetenis!

Henno Brandsma

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun  8 22:06:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 15:06:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (03) [E/F/Z]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.150631.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

Henno Brandsma schreef:

> Mei metatesis (ferwiskeling fan lu^d en r) waard dit yn it Aldfrysk
> _hors_,
> dat noch fuortlibbet yn Skylger "hos". It normale wurd foar _horse_ is
> no yn it Westerlauwer Frysk _hynder_ < *hingst-diar  (_stallion
> -animal.._), en ek it Seelsterk hat no Hoangst.
> It Ingels bewarret ek _horse_, wylst it Holla^nsk noch _ros_ hat (mar
> net
> mear as it meast gebru^kte wurd)

't Ze?uws ei, neffen 't gebrukelijke _paerd_, ok
nog _rosse_ of _'osse_, '_orse_ vo een paerd
dat a moeilijk om 'ouwen is, een druzig paerd
dus.
De vurm _rosse_ 'oor je meer as de vurm
_'orse_ of (mee wiggevaolle r) _'osse_. Dat die
vurm _ 'orse_ bestaet, wil nie zeie a dat den
ouwsten vurm is; in 't Ze?uws wissele mede-
klienkers lap vo ke?r van plekke...

Nog een paer paerdetermen (Ze?uws:NL) die
a me te binnen schieete:
_een blauwen_: een schimmel
_een liere_: een grijs gevlekt paard
_een tuug lieren_: een span grijs gevlekte
paarden
_een 'it_: slecht uitziend paard
_een blisse_: bles, grote witte vlek
_een kolle_: kleine witte vlek
_de lienken_: de flanken van een paard
_een kacheltje_: een veulen
_een klop'iengst_: hengst met ??n teelbal
_liende_: leidsel
_tjottere_: het slaan van de leidsels
_alder_: hoofdstel

Misschiens ok w? interessant bin de
commando's die an paeren ore gegee:
_aor_: linksom
_uuto_: rechtsom
_aorop_: beetje naar links
_uutop_: beetje naar rechts
_duizop_: achteruit

Groetenisse,

Marco

----------

From: erek gass <egass at caribline.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

For those of you who may be curious, here in Pennsylvania, in Deitsch,
our word for "horse" is "gaul" (plural, "geil").  My understanding is
that this is an even older word (but I haven't checked that out, so
correct my presumption if it needs correcting) than "horse".  I believe
in parts of Germany today, it translates as "nag", that is a "broken
down horse".

Erek

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 03:16:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 20:16:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (04) [E/LS/Z]
Message-ID: <SAT.8.JUN.2002.201624.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon 2002.06.08 (03)

Hi, Marco,

>een blauwen_: een schimmel
heit bie uns inn't Hoogd??tsche ook "Blauschimmel", wenn hei recht jung
is;
>een klop'iengst_: hengst met ??n teelbal
Waard hier ook seggt, man: wat meent dat? "teelball"?

Door gifft' ook noch "Appelschimmel", mit'n poor d?sster Steeln op'n
Fell.

Hi, Erek,

>  I believe
>in parts of Germany today, it translates as "nag", that is a "broken
>down horse"
Yes, but it also can mean a horse of just minor quality, far away from
the
demanded "noblesse".

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

This thread seems to cover both "Etymology" and "Lexicon," so I'll just
leave it with "Lexicon" for now.

Marco & Fiete:

> >een klop'iengst_: hengst met ??n teelbal
> Waard hier ook seggt, man: wat meent dat? "teelball"?

Ik anter al maal f?r Marco.  Nedderlandsch _teelbal_ (ook _bal_) bed??dt
"Kl??t" (d??tsch _Hoden_, ingelsch _testicle_).

Erek Gass wrote:

> For those of you who may be curious, here in Pennsylvania, in Deitsch,
> our word for "horse" is "gaul" (plural, "geil").  My understanding is
> that this is an even older word (but I haven't checked that out, so
> correct my presumption if it needs correcting) than "horse".  I believe
> in parts of Germany today, it translates as "nag", that is a "broken
> down horse".

We don't know that for sure.  German _Gaul_ '(old) nag' (which also
simply means 'horse' in many European German dialects) goes back to
Middle (High) German _g?l_, and that is apparently as far as it can be
traced back.  What is important about this _g?l_ is that it is not
specific to one animal but is sex-specific, denoting a male animal,
oftentimes mentioned in the context of pigs.  According to the
_Herkunftsduden_, it may well be related to the word group to which
German _gie?en_ (Low Saxon/Low German _geten_) 'to pour' belongs' (<
Germanic *_g^heu-_, thus assumedly in reference to ejaculation).

Marco Evenhuis was so kind as to share some Zeelandic (Ze?uws)
equestrian terms (with Dutch glosses).  Although I did not exactly grow
up with horses, I will add below as many Northern and Northeastern Low
Saxon ones (of Northern Germany) as come to mind and can be scared up at
a moment's notice.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

/peird/ Peerd [pe.I3t] ~ Pierd [pi:3t] 'horse' (neut., pl. /peird(@)/
   Peer(d') [pe:I3(d)] ~ Pier(d') [pi:.3(d)])

/hiiz/ Hies [hi:s] ~ /hiiz+k@/ Hieske ['hi:sk@] 'horse' (neut.,
   pl. Hies(k)en, specific to Eastern Friesland and Oldenburg)

/t??t/ T??t [t?:t] ~ [t9:t] (fem., pl. T?ten) 'dam', 'broodmare',
   'mother horse', 'mare'

/faal(-n)+peird/ Fahl(en)peerd ~ Fohl(en)peerd ['fQ:l(n)pE.I3t] ~
   ['fo:l(n)pE.I3t] 'mare' (see _Peerd_ above and _Fahlen_ below)

/faal(-n)+meer/ Fahl(en)m?hr ~ Fohl(en)m?hr ['fQ:l(n)me:3] ~
   ['fQ:l(n)mE:3] ~ ['fo:l(n)me:3] ~  ['fo:l(n)mE:3] (fem.,
   pl. Fahl(en)m?hr(e)n ~ Fohl(en)m?hr(e)n; see _Fahlen_ below) 'mare'
   'broodmare'

/hiNst/ Hingst [hI.Ns(t)] (masc., pl. Hingsten) 'stallion', 'stud
   (horse)'

/paag(@)/ Paag [pQ:.G] ~ [po:.G] (masc., pl. Pagen ['pQ:gN=] ~ [po:gN=])
   'nag', often specifically 'inferior male horse', also '(inferior)
   gelding'

/valak/ Wallak ['va.lak] (masc., pl. Wallaks) 'gelding'

/ruun/ Ruun [ru:n] (masc., pl. Runen) 'gelding'

/faal/ Fahl ~ Fohl [fQ:l] ~ [fo:l] ~ /faaln/ Fahlen ~ Fohlen [fQ:ln]
   ~ [fo:ln] (neut., pl. Fahlen ~ Fohlen) 'foal'

/hiiz+faaln/ Hiesfahlen ~ Hiesfohlen ['hi:sfQ:ln] (neut., pl.
   Hiesfahlen ~ Hiesfohlen) 'foal' (specific to Eastern Friesland and
   Oldenburg)

/krak/ Krack [krak] ~ /kr?k/ Kr?ck [krYk] (fem. ~ neut., pl. Kracken ~
   Kr?cken) 'inferior horse', '(old) nag' (also 'cripple' or 'weakling'
   in derogatory reference to humans)

/kr?p-n+biit-r/ Kr?ppenbieter ['krYpm=bi:t3] ~ /kr?f-n+biit-r/
   Kr?ppenbieter ['krYfm=bi:t3] 'inferior horse', '(old) nag'
   ("crib biter," probably because it is not fed as well as more able
   horses -- sad, but such are country life and the "good" old days)

/Sin-r/ Schinner ['SI.n3] (masc., pl. Schinners) 'inferior horse',
   '(old) nag' (northeastern dialects, probably abbreviated; elsewhere
   'knacker', 'animal torturer'; cf. German _Schinder_ 'id.' >
   _Schinderm?hre_ 'old, useless horse (ready for slaughter)')

/klepr/ Klepper ['klEp3] (masc., pl. Kleppers) 'inferior horse', 'old
   nag'

/Siml/ Schimmel ['Si.ml=] ~ /S?ml/ Sch?mmel ['SY.ml=] (masc., pl.
   Schimmels ~ Sch?mmels) 'white/gray horse'

/apl+Siml/ Appelschimmel ['?apl=Si.ml=] ~ /apl+S?ml/ Applesch?mmel
   ['?aplSY.ml=] 'dappled (gray) horse' (< Appel 'apple')

/fos/ Voss ~ Vo? [fOs] (masc., pl. /f?s/ V?ss ~ V?? [f9s]) 'chestnut
   horse' ("fox")

/riid+peird/ Rietpeerd ~ Riedpeerd ['ri:tpE.I3t] (see _Peerd_) 'riding
   horse'

/ren+peird/ Rennpeerd ['rE.npE.I3] ~ R?nnpeerd ['r9.npE.I3t]
  (see _Peerd_) 'racehorse'

/maan/ Mahn ~ Mohn [mQ:n] ~ [mo:n] ~ M?hn [me:n] ~ [mE:n] (fem.,
   pl. Mahnen ~ Mohnen) 'mane'

/bles/ Bless ~ Ble? [blEs] (fem., pl. Blessen) 'blaze (of a horse
   or cow)'

/n?str/ N?ster ['nYst3] (fem., pl. N?stern) '(horse's) nostril'

/n?f/ N?ff ['nYf] (fem., pl. N?ffen ~ N?ffs) '(horse's) nostril'

/houf/ Hoof [ho.Uf] ~ Hauf [ha.Uf] (masc., pl. /h??f/ H??f ~ Heuf ~
   H?uf [h9.If] ~ [hO.If]) 'hoof'

/houf+iizn/ Hoofiesen ['ho.Uf?I:zn=] ~ Haufiesen ['ha.Uf?I:zn=] (neut.,
   pl. Hoofiesen) 'horseshoe' ("hoof iron," often simply _Iesen_ "iron")

/sadl/ Saddel ['zadl=] ~ /saadl/ Sadel ~ Sodel ['zQ:dl=] ~ ['zo:dl=]
   'saddle'

/peird(@)+apl/ Peerappel ~ Pierappel ['pE.I3?apl=] ~ ['pi:3?apl=]
   ("horses' apple") '(piece of) horse dung'

/halt-r/ Halter ['ha.lt3] (masc. ~ neut., pl. Halters) 'halter'

/t??gl/ T?gel (masc., pl. T?gel) 'rein'

/laid(e)/ Leit ~ Leid' ~ Lei [la.It] ~ [la:.I(d)] (neut., pl. ?)
   'rein', 'lead'

/toum/ Toom [to.Um] ~ Taum [ta.Um] (masc., pl. /t??m/ T??m ~ Teum ~
   T?um [t9.Im] ~ [tO.Im]) 'bridle'

/toum+wark/ Toomwark ['to.Umva:k] ~ Taumwark ['ta.Umva:k] (neut.)
   'bridle (with harness)' (< Wark 'work(s)', 'gear')

/toum+t??g/ Toomt??g ['to.Umty:C] ~ Taumt??g ['ta.Umty:C] (neut.)
   'bridle (with harness)' (< T??g 'stuff', 'gear')

/g at -SIr/ Geschirr [ge'SI.3] (neut.) 'harness'

/vrinS-/ wrinschen ['vrI.nSn=] ~ /vr?nS-/ wr?nschen ['vrY.nSn=] ~
   /r?nS-/ r?nschen ['r9.nSn=] ~ /r?nS-/ r?nschen ['r9.nSn=] 'to neigh'

/green-/ grenen [gre:n:] ~ [grE:n] ~ /gr??n-/ gr?nen [gr?:n:] ~
   [gr9:n:] 'to neigh'

/r??nr-/ r?nern ~ reunern ~ r?unern ['r9.In3n] ~ ['rO.In3n] 'to neigh
   softly', 'to whinny'

/riid-/ rieden ['ri:dn=] (ik ried', du rittst, he ritt, wi riedt ~
rieden;
   ik ree(d'); ik heff reden) 'to ride (an animal)'

/draav-/ draven ~ droven ~ droben ['drQ:vm=] ~ ['dro:vm=] ~ ['dro:bm=]
   'to trot'

/drav(-d)/ Draff [draf] ~ Draft [draft] (masc.) 'trot'

/galop/ Galopp [ga'lOp] (masc.) 'gallop'

/galop-eir-n/ galoppeern [galO'pE.Irn] 'to gallop'

/klebudr-/ klebuddern [kle'bUd3n] 'to gallop' (also 'to run noisily',
   'to stomp speedily')

/rabakr-/ rabackern [ra'bak3n] 'to gallop' (also 'to run noisily',
   'to stomp speedily')

/fel(d)+jaag-/ felljagen ['fE.ljQ:gN=] ~ ['fE.ljo:gN=] 'to bolt'

/h??/ h?! [hy(:)] (1) 'wo hee!' (leftward command); (2) 'giddy up!',
   'gee up!' (forward command)

/hot/ hott! [hOt] (1) 'giddy', 'gee!' (rightward command); (2)
   'giddy up!', 'gee up!' (forward command)

/h??+hot/ h?-hott! [hy(:)'hOt] 'giddy up!', 'gee up!' (forward command)*
__________
* Note also idiomatic derivations:
   h? un hott 'both ways', 'undecided', 'indecisive(ly)'
   nich h? un nich hott gahn ("to go neither _h?_ nor _hott_")
      (1) 'to go straight ahead and never stray from one's path'
      (2) 'to act indecisively'
   nich h? un nich hott weten ("to know neither _h?_ nor _hott_")
      'to be at a loss', 'to be indecisive'
   De een geiht h?, de anner hott ("one goes _h?_, the other _hott_")
      'They are each going their own way', 'They are falling out', 'They
      are separating/separated (said especially about couples)
   De een seggt h?, de anner hott ("One says _h?_, the other _hott_")
      'They say/want contradictory things', 'They don't get along',
      'They are incompatible'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 17:24:10 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:24:10 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.09 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.102410.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: JL <jl at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon

> I'm not sure where 'pair' comes
> from, but I would think that German 'Paar' is cognate.
> Seeing as the German word has a simple 'p' and not a
> 'pf' I would think that this is a much more recent
> loan, and probably from French?

You are right: My "Concise Oxford Dictionary" gives:{ME,f.OF 'paire'
f.L 'paria', neut.pl. of 'par' equal]

Grtz,
Jaap Liek

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 17:25:59 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:25:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.09 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.102559.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: "to make" vs. "to do"

Beste lieeglanners,

I have been thinking a lot recently about the usage of the verb "to do"
in English sentences such as for example :
"I do think you'll be surprised"
where "do" expresses a stronger sentiment than merely saying :
"I think you'll be surprised"
Here in Brabant I have never ever come across such a meaning for the
auxiliary verb "doen".
But at the same time I have been wondering why English people say :
"He makes me laugh"
where we would say
"A du ma lachen"
("to make" versus "to do")
Maybe the difference is even sharper when an order is given like :
"Make them dance"
where we would say
"Du ze dansn"
Which position does Northern Germany choose in this respect ?
Or is it rather the verb "to let" or "to bring" that is used in this
context ?

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun  9 17:48:28 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:48:28 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.09 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.104828.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

I am pleased to send a special welcome to those of you who joined us
since Friday, June 7.  They are in Belgium (Antwerp), Iran (Tehran),
Scotland (Ayr), South Africa (Barberton, Mpumalanga; Wynberg, Cape
Town), Turkey (Fethiye) and the United States of America (Waverly,
Iowa).

I would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that they are
expected to be familiar with the rules and guidelines posted here:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html

Because of recent signs of apparent misunderstanding, I must stress that
following the proceedings on Lowlands-L is bound to increase knowledge
of and about the various languages but is not intended to serve as
language teaching per se.  If you wish to learn one of these languages,
you ought to enroll in courses or follow a self-taught course and use
Lowlands-L to deepen your understanding by reading what people write or
by asking specific questions.  I am happy to have private contacts with
you.  However, if you have language questions, please direct them at the
List, not at me personally and privately.  I certainly would like to
help you individually, but you must understand that I do not have the
time and energy, or in many cases the knowledge, to do so.  If you have
relevant questions, please direct them at the List by sending them to
the following address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org

To search for suitable sources, please check here:
Online: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/lowlands-links.htm
Offline: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/lowlands-links.htm

Before you ask any question you ought to check the Lowlands-L archive
(http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html) to see if
the same question has been asked and answered earlier.  To search by
keywords in the texts you need to check the box "Substring".

Thank you all!
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:30:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:30:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.09 (04) [D/E/F]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.183024.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: RBlaustein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

From: Richard Blaustein
Subject: Etymology of "Pferd," "Paard"

Just a thought from an erstwhile lurker who isn't a professional
linguist and
never studied Latin: could <<pferd>> and <<paard>> possibly be related
to
"-pard" -- as in the Latin-derived "leopard"? Leo is Latin for lion, but
what
is the root meaning of <<pard>>? (An old word for giraffe was
"cameleopard.")

----------

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (04) [E/LS/Z]

> We don't know that for sure.  German _Gaul_ '(old) nag' (which also
> simply means 'horse' in many European German dialects) goes back to
> Middle (High) German _g?l_, and that is apparently as far as it can be
> traced back.  What is important about this _g?l_ is that it is not
> specific to one animal but is sex-specific, denoting a male animal,
> oftentimes mentioned in the context of pigs.  According to the
> _Herkunftsduden_, it may well be related to the word group to which
> German _gie?en_ (Low Saxon/Low German _geten_) 'to pour' belongs' (<
> Germanic *_g^heu-_, thus assumedly in reference to ejaculation).

As oanfolling hjirop: ek it Westerlauwer Frysk hat _gu^l_ = a^ld en net
sa
be^st hynder.
It wurdt benammen noch bru^kt yn 'e u'tdrukking _it is gu^l om goarre_
(goarre is ek
sa'n leechlizzend (pejoratyf) wurd foar u.o in hynder. (Holla^nsk: het
is
lood om oud ijzer..)
It Holla^nsk hat _guil_, en de etymologyske wurdboeken binne der net
u't.
Der wurdt noch in moolke gearhing mei Aldiersk _ghota_ (hynder) neamd,
mar
neat is wis. Ek boppeneamde stam *gheu wurdt neamd..
Ik haw it wurd yn it Seeltersk en Frasch/Freesk net fine kind.

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Vermeulen <vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]


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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:34:26 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:34:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.09 (04) [D/E/F/LS]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.183426.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

Please ignore the previous issue under the same title. It went out
Prematurely.  Sorry.  RFH
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From: RBlaustein at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

From: Richard Blaustein
Subject: Etymology of "Pferd," "Paard"

Just a thought from an erstwhile lurker who isn't a professional
linguist and
never studied Latin: could <<pferd>> and <<paard>> possibly be related
to
"-pard" -- as in the Latin-derived "leopard"? Leo is Latin for lion, but
what
is the root meaning of <<pard>>? (An old word for giraffe was
"cameleopard.")

----------

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (04) [E/LS/Z]

> We don't know that for sure.  German _Gaul_ '(old) nag' (which also
> simply means 'horse' in many European German dialects) goes back to
> Middle (High) German _g?l_, and that is apparently as far as it can be
> traced back.  What is important about this _g?l_ is that it is not
> specific to one animal but is sex-specific, denoting a male animal,
> oftentimes mentioned in the context of pigs.  According to the
> _Herkunftsduden_, it may well be related to the word group to which
> German _gie?en_ (Low Saxon/Low German _geten_) 'to pour' belongs' (<
> Germanic *_g^heu-_, thus assumedly in reference to ejaculation).

As oanfolling hjirop: ek it Westerlauwer Frysk hat _gu^l_ = a^ld en net
sa
be^st hynder.
It wurdt benammen noch bru^kt yn 'e u'tdrukking _it is gu^l om goarre_
(goarre is ek
sa'n leechlizzend (pejoratyf) wurd foar u.o in hynder. (Holla^nsk: het
is
lood om oud ijzer..)
It Holla^nsk hat _guil_, en de etymologyske wurdboeken binne der net
u't.
Der wurdt noch in moolke gearhing mei Aldiersk _ghota_ (hynder) neamd,
mar
neat is wis. Ek boppeneamde stam *gheu wurdt neamd..
Ik haw it wurd yn it Seeltersk en Frasch/Freesk net fine kind.

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: Vermeulen <vermeulen.vastgoed at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.08 (02) [E/F]

> From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Dear All
>
> Fiete wrote:
>
> "New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but:
> "horse" (and
> "hengist") in modern English.
>
> What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most
> times!
>
> I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to
> convince me! "HORSE"
> seems much older.
>
> Bis denne
>
> Fiete."
>
> Is this regarding etymology? I don't have an etymology
> dictionary with me at present, but as far as I can
> remember 'Pferd' etc. comes from an early Latin loan,
> whereas 'horse' is the old Germanic word still found
> in German 'Ross' etc. I'm not sure where 'pair' comes
> from, but I would think that German 'Paar' is cognate.
> Seeing as the German word has a simple 'p' and not a
> 'pf' I would think that this is a much more recent
> loan, and probably from French? (sorry, my French
> isn't too hot, so please excuse me if I'm wrong - the
> word 'se-par-ate' springs to mind as being connected).
> With this reasoning I wouldn't expect the two to be
> related.
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Gary
>
Beste Gary,

Wellicht kan een greep uit ons Vlaams Nederlands helpen:

1) peerd, peerdig, hengst, beangstigend, merrie, kachtel, kachtelmerrie,
kachtelen, paarden, "pardon", parten, parade,

2) paar, paardans, paren, paarsgewijze, een paar peerden (>(?) paarden),
paar- en onpaar, gepaard gaan met,

3) horsen (G.Gezelle), orsen, rossen, roskam, Rosbeiaard, Horsendonk,
afrossen, horten, horde, hotsen, peerdehorzel,

De woorden binnen de groep zijn min of meer verwant met mekaar; wellicht
bestaat er ook verwantschap tussen woorden uit verschillende groepen.

m vr gr

Frans Vermeulen

----------

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06. 08 (04)

Moin, Leeglanners,

"Peer" schiint'n Themen tou ween f??r "all of us"- is' jo ook 'n hillig
un'
wichtig Deeir ween, fr?her.

Van Doog heff'ck 'n poor aule Peert?chters in mien  Nooborschapp von uns
'Peersnackerei" vertellt, un heff'n heel neuet Woort h??rt:

"Hucken".

Schall hier leu?pig ween hebben, bit  van Doog, un' heit ook anners nix
as
"Peer"- 'wiss inne Hauptsook door, wo't nich meihr op'n enkeld Deeir
ankoomen dei, opp de Peerh??f f?r de Remontentucht.

Hi, Lowlanders,

a "horse" seems to be an important thing for many of us- perhaps because
of
it's high social rank and importance in the early times of our common
history.

Today I told some elder people in my neighbourhood about our
"horse-talk",
and it didn't last for long to hear a new expression:

"Hucken" = "Peird" = "horse".

This word is still used in presence and doesn't mean anything else than
just "horse(s)". I guess, normally in connection with breeding them on
greater farms (what had been done in our region for the military
"remontes").

----------

From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.07 (03) [E]

paard comes from " para ferid " latin for "side horse", or pack horse
i'm
told

wim verdoold wkv at home.nl

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:37:00 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:37:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.09 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.183700.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Grammar
>
>Holger:
>
>> In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "st??n" (to stand) or "g??n" >
(to
>> go) with an infinitive:
>> "wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
>> theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
>> over I can't find any example.
>
>This seems to be the construction in Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German)
>I had described earlier.  Do you think so?
>
>> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
>> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
>> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
>> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
>> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
>> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
>> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
>> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
>> ...
>>
>> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
>> (Wat daaist d??????ier taau zitn?)
>> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
>> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>>
>> Wat sall dat T??????s noch r??????uliggen daun?
>> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
>> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
>> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>>
>> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>
>Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?

Hello Ron !

>*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten? = Is possible but sounds strange. Would
be used joking or in ironical speech.

Let me quote from my own posting:
>In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "st??n" (to stand) or "g??n"
>(to go) with an infinitive:
>"wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
(!)>theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do),too but thinking
it
>over I can't find any example.(!)

>*Wat sal d?? budel noch r??????uliggen daun? = impossible !

However I'll think more about this because there is an idea coming up
that
long time ago I have heard a somewhat similar use of "daun" (or "we:sen"
=
to be) in context with a continued situation (like in the above
sentence).
If I can remember and reconstruct what it was I'll send a further
message.
An other way to mark a continued situation or action in EFLS is "we:sen"
(to be) or else + an 't (at).
"Wat b??st du: dor an 't luren ?" (what do you expect to be happening ?;
what are you waiting for ?; what do you spy for ?).
"S??i b??nt an 't e:ten" (They are eating).

Regards,
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 01:48:06 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:48:06 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.09 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.9.JUN.2002.184806.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 09.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Neal W. Welsh" <zooman at inreach.com>
Subject: Origin and Center of Appalachian

Actually, I posted this querymore than a week ago, your moderator (?)
replied that the question had been referred to someone else for an
answer.  In that time none has been
forthcoming.  Has this old neophyte missed something?  I really would
like to know as much as I can about the origin and center of the
language.  Thank you.

    THE ORIGINAL E-POSTING:

Howdy Y'all!
    Not to appear pretentious but I hail from the Shenandoah Valley of
Virginia in the Front Royal (birthplace, 1938) and Strasburg (through
7th grade) regions and would like to
know why the dying dialect (language?) of the oldsters there is known as
a distinct language, Appalachian.  I always thought it to be an American
english dialect somewhat
corrupted by Elizabethan expressions.  What is considered the origin and
regional center of this language?  Where would one find a comprehensive
glossary and rules of grammar?
Your reply and suggested web sites would be appreciated.
    Sincerely,
    Neal W. Welsh

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Neal,

I am not quite sure what posting submission you referred to above.  I am
not sure either whom I referred it to.  All I know is that you applied
for subscription today and I subscribed you this evening.
Non-subscribers do not get to post to the List.

So, welcome!  And I hope your question will be answered satisfactorily.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 15:29:02 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:29:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.082902.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: etymnology

Dear Ron, Lowlanders

I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
tragen
which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen, and also the
past
participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.

The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs and I observed
that
the equivalent Dutch verbs vragen, slaan and dragen displayed similar
trends
albeit with certain differences. I have illustrated each verb with its
past
forms as shown below:

VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen
SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen
DRAGEN   droegen   gedragen

As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
all
exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
the
equivalent german verbs. However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen
are
strong irregular verbs, fragen is in fact a weak verb, which is somewhat
quite puzzling.

Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive seems
to
be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was written
as
slagen?

I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs
for
ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages. As far as I can
gather,
past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
participle.

Regards
David Elsworth.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Dear David,

> I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs > for
> ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages.

You got some English interference there from the meaning of the cognate
'to drag'.  That would be 'ask', 'hit' and *'carry'.  (_tragen_/_dragen_
'carry')

> As far as I can gather,
> past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
> participle.

That depends on the dialect.  Some dialects have retained the _ge-_.

Anyway, here are the equivalents in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):

FRAGEN          fraag' ~ fr??g'*        (ge)fraagt
SLAGEN ~ SLAAN  sloog' ~ sl??g'*        (ge)slagen ~ (ge)slaan
DRAGEN          droog' ~ dr??g'*        (ge)dragen

* ~ = occurs in variation with
  oo and ?? here are diphthongs: [o.U] ~ [9.Y]/[9.I], ought to be
  written <ou> and <??>/<?i> respectively.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 15:42:44 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 08:42:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.084244.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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=======================================================================

From: Sachsen780 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.09 (05) [E]

Hallo jedermann,

while in Emsland in western Niedersachsen, Deutschland last month for
family research, I came to realize that my 1850s
ancestors spoke Plattdeutsch (Old Saxon) when they emigrated to St.
Louis, Missouri and Quincy, Illinois.  My Dad and I learned
a great deal about our family history while there, and even possible
solved the mystery of the orgin of:

Ollie, Ollie oxen free!!

German speakers had never heard this childhood "Hide 'n Seek" expression
which convinced me that if it was of German
(Plattdeutsch) origin, it was an emigrants' game call from long ago.  We
just said it for what it meant, without a thought of
the exact words.

Perhaps the exact wording was:

Alles, alles auch sind frei!!

Any thoughts?

S  T  E  V  E     F  E  L  D

Feld family of 1785-1858 from Herzlake
and Langen--now in Emsland, Niedersachsen,
Deutschland

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Sayings

Hi, Steve!

> ancestors spoke Plattdeutsch (Old Saxon) when they emigrated to St.
> Louis,

Old Saxon ceased to be spoken in the Middle Ages.  It developed into
Middle Low Saxon ("Middle Low German") which lasted until the late 17th
century.  The descendant language varieties used nowadays are called
"Low Saxon" or "Low German" in English.

The English name for what is called _Niedersachsen_ in German and
_Neddersassen_ in Low Saxon is "Lower Saxony."  _Deutschland_ (Low Saxon
_D??tschland_) is "Germany" in English.

(By the way, some of us do not like it when people refer to our language
as _Plattdeutsch_ when speaking or writing in English.  Why use the
*("High") German* name (the name in the overshadowing/suppressing
language) when there is an English name?  The equivalent names in the
language itself are _Neddersassisch_, _Nedderd??tsch_ or
_Plattd??tsch_.)

Friendly regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 20:48:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:48:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.10 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.134823.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: Re: "Sayings" 2002. 06. 10 (02)

Hi, Ron, Lowlanders,


S  T  E  V  E     F  E  L  D >Sachsen780 at aol.com< wrote:

>...Hallo jedermann,

>while in Emsland in western Niedersachsen, Deutschland last month ...

Ron wrote:

>...The English name for what is called _Niedersachsen_ in German and
>_Neddersassen_ in Low Saxon is "Lower Saxony."  ...

I'm not sure, Ron, that You do rigtht to use "Neddersassen" as an origin
Low Saxon word.
Because: "Niedersachsen" was established and named like this not before
1949; it's an artificial product, mainly made for  federative reasons
after
World War 2.

So- it's obviously a translation (of course: a correct one!) from modern
Upper German, and I don't feel well when reading it. I never would use
it
myself.

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Fiete,

> So- it's obviously a translation (of course: a correct one!) from modern
> Upper German, and I don't feel well when reading it. I never would use it
> myself.

That may be so, but everyone else that I know uses _Neddersassen_,
_Nedersaksen_, _Neersassen_. etc. (dependent on their dialects) when
speaking or writing Low Saxon (Low German), and I would be rather
startled to hear someone say _Niedersachsen_ when speaking Low Saxon.  I
gave that form in parentheses, which does not necessarily imply that it
is the *origin*, simply means that it is the equivalent.

Actually, if you read some older texts (e.g., 18th and 17th century
ones), you will come across versions such as _Nedern sassen lant_ or
_Nedersaksisch land_.  So the name existed, even though the land it
referred to may not exactly coincide with the modern state
boundary-wise.  I do not really believe that the (High) German name for
the modern German state was plucked out of thin air.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 20:52:35 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 13:52:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.135235.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

David Elsworth wrote:

> I have illustrated each verb with its
> past
> forms as shown below:
>
> VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen
> SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen
> DRAGEN   droegen   gedragen

The correct past participle of _vragen_ in
Dutch is actually _gevraagd_ The rest of
the information above is correct.

> Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive seems
> to
> be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was written
> as
> slagen?

There is a Dutch verb _slagen_ and
that can be used with the same meaning
as _slaan_, but usually isn't. It is mostly
used in the meaning of 'having success'.

My 'Etymologisch Woordenboek' (by
dr. J. de Vries, Antwerp 1964) actually
mentions _slagen_ as a younger form
of _slaan_. It probably derived from
the past participle of _slaan_.
I believe that in Flanders _slagen_ is in
fact used in the same way as _slaan_,
allthough there also _slaan_ is the normal
form.

Then the equivalents in Zeeuws:

vraege(n) - vroog - evroge(n)
slaee(n) - sloog - esloge(n)
draege(n) - droog - edroge(n)

Some remarks:
* in most dialects the past participles
have the prefix _e-_, but some dialects
have _ge-_.
* older forms for the past tense of
_slaee(n)_ are _sleeg_ and _slieg_ and
an older form for the past tense of
_draege(n)_ is _dreeg_.
* older forms for the past participles
are _edrege(n)_ and _eslege(n)_.
* two of these verbs also have weak
equivalents, but these are not used
as much as the strong ones. They are:

vraege(n) - vraeg(en)de - evroge(n)
draege(n) - draeg(en)de - edroge(n)

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: JL <jl at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: etymnology
>
>Dear Ron, Lowlanders
>
>I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
>tragen
>which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen, and also the
>past
>participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
>The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs and I observed
>that
>the equivalent Dutch verbs vragen, slaan and dragen displayed similar
>trends
>albeit with certain differences. I have illustrated each verb with its
>past
>forms as shown below:
>
>VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen
>SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen
>DRAGEN   droegen   gedragen

''gevragen"  is wrong, it  is "gevraagd"

Best Regards,
Jaap Liek

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

> From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
> Subject: etymnology
>
> Dear Ron, Lowlanders
>
> I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
> tragen
> which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen, and also the
> past
> participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
> The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs and I observed
> that
> the equivalent Dutch verbs vragen, slaan and dragen displayed similar
> trends
> albeit with certain differences. I have illustrated each verb with its
> past
> forms as shown below:
>
> VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen
                     gevraagd!(dutch)
> SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen
> DRAGEN   droegen   gedragen

Dear David,
In Flanders it is:
VRAGEN      vroegen          gevraagd
SLAAN       sloegen          geslegen
DRAGEN      droegen          gedregen
> As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
> all
> exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
> the
> equivalent german verbs. However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen
> are
> strong irregular verbs, fragen is in fact a weak verb, which is somewhat
> quite puzzling.
>
> Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive seems
> to
> be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was written
> as
> slagen?
>
> I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs
> for
> ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages. As far as I can
> gather,
> past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
> participle.
>
> Regards
> David Elsworth.
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Dear David,
>
>> I would be interested in hearing from other members as to how the verbs > for
>> ask, hit and pull, conjugate in their own languages.
>
> You got some English interference there from the meaning of the cognate
> 'to drag'.  That would be 'ask', 'hit' and *'carry'.  (_tragen_/_dragen_
> 'carry')
>
>> As far as I can gather,
>> past particples in Low Saxon do not add the prefix, 'ge,' to the past
>> participle.
>
> That depends on the dialect.  Some dialects have retained the _ge-_.
>
> Anyway, here are the equivalents in Northern Low Saxon (Low German):
>
> FRAGEN          fraag' ~ fr??g'*        (ge)fraagt
> SLAGEN ~ SLAAN  sloog' ~ sl??g'*        (ge)slagen ~ (ge)slaan
> DRAGEN          droog' ~ dr??g'*        (ge)dragen
Flemish:
VRAGEN         vroeg         gevraagd
SLAGEN         slagen        gelaagd (succeeded)
SLAAN          sloeg         geslagen (hit)
DRAGEN         droeg         gedregen
> * ~ = occurs in variation with
> oo and ?? here are diphthongs: [o.U] ~ [9.Y]/[9.I], ought to be
> written <ou> and <??>/<?i> respectively.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:04:33 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:04:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.140433.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.07 (03) [E]

> From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
> Subject: Lexicon
>
> Sorry, all of You,
>
> I've tried the "eight" , "ought" , "acht", "eigen", "echt", "?chten".- -
> -
> No one interested at all.
>
> New trial; "Pferd", "Peerd", "Peird", "Paird",  but: "horse" (and
> "hengist") in modern English.
Dear Fiete,
In Flemish we have
peird, hors, ors, and ros.
'Hengst' is the male horse and 'merrie' the female.
A 'kacheltje' is a just born horse and a 'veulen - veul'n' is a young
horse.
>
> What about "pair"? They had to go "pairwhise" at most times!
We use the word 'paor' for the number two.
Paorsgewijze= per two.
>
> I don't find any germanic/low saxon origin able to convince me! "HORSE"
> seems much older.
>
> Bis denne
>
> Fiete.
Totton,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen <baxichedda at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.08 (04) [E/LS/Z]

Hello all,

As a long time horse affectionado, I was once told
that most "Danish" words to do with horses are
supposed to be loan words from German, but it seems we
got some from Low Saxon... I made up a little list of
the words that seems similar to the other list,
unfortunately I am not good enough at phonetic writing
to add that information.

I also want to ask if anybody has ever heard the
expression "Mohrenkopf" or similar, about a dark grey
horse who still has a black head? It was used in older
Danish imported as "morenkop", but was later
abandoned.

Greetings, Lone Olesen

The first list are the Low Saxon words quoted from
Ron's list, the second is the apparently similar
"Danish" words:

----begin quote----
/hiiz/ Hies [hi:s] ~ /hiiz+k@/ Hieske ['hi:sk@]
'horse' (neut.,
   pl. Hies(k)en, specific to Eastern Friesland and
Oldenburg)

/faal/ Fahl ~ Fohl [fQ:l] ~ [fo:l] ~ /faaln/ Fahlen ~
Fohlen [fQ:ln]
   ~ [fo:ln] (neut., pl. Fahlen ~ Fohlen) 'foal'

/hiNst/ Hingst [hI.Ns(t)] (masc., pl. Hingsten)
'stallion', 'stud
   (horse)'

/valak/ Wallak ['va.lak] (masc., pl. Wallaks)
'gelding'

/krak/ Krack [krak] ~ /kr?k/ Kr?ck [krYk] (fem. ~
neut., pl. Kracken ~
   Kr?cken) 'inferior horse', '(old) nag' (also
'cripple' or 'weakling'
   in derogatory reference to humans)

/kr?p-n+biit-r/ Kr?ppenbieter ['krYpm=bi:t3] ~
/kr?f-n+biit-r/
   Kr?ppenbieter ['krYfm=bi:t3] 'inferior horse',
'(old) nag'
   ("crib biter," probably because it is not fed as
well as more able
   horses -- sad, but such are country life and the
"good" old days)

/Siml/ Schimmel ['Si.ml=] ~ /S?ml/ Sch?mmel ['SY.ml=]
(masc., pl.
   Schimmels ~ Sch?mmels) 'white/gray horse'
/apl+Siml/ Appelschimmel ['?apl=Si.ml=] ~ /apl+S?ml/
Applesch?mmel
   ['?aplSY.ml=] 'dappled (gray) horse' (< Appel
'apple')

/fos/ Voss ~ Vo? [fOs] (masc., pl. /f?s/ V?ss ~ V??
[f9s]) 'chestnut
   horse' ("fox")

/maan/ Mahn ~ Mohn [mQ:n] ~ [mo:n] ~ M?hn [me:n] ~
[mE:n] (fem.,
   pl. Mahnen ~ Mohnen) 'mane'

/bles/ Bless ~ Ble? [blEs] (fem., pl. Blessen) 'blaze
(of a horse
   or cow)'

/houf/ Hoof [ho.Uf] ~ Hauf [ha.Uf] (masc., pl. /h??f/
H??f ~ Heuf ~
   H?uf [h9.If] ~ [hO.If]) 'hoof'

/sadl/ Saddel ['zadl=] ~ /saadl/ Sadel ~ Sodel
['zQ:dl=] ~ ['zo:dl=]
   'saddle'

/peird(@)+apl/ Peerappel ~ Pierappel ['pE.I3?apl=] ~
['pi:3?apl=]
   ("horses' apple") '(piece of) horse dung'

/t??gl/ T?gel (masc., pl. T?gel) 'rein'

/toum/ Toom [to.Um] ~ Taum [ta.Um] (masc., pl. /t??m/
T??m ~ Teum ~
   T?um [t9.Im] ~ [tO.Im]) 'bridle'

/toum+wark/ Toomwark ['to.Umva:k] ~ Taumwark
['ta.Umva:k] (neut.)
   'bridle (with harness)' (< Wark 'work(s)', 'gear')

/vrinS-/ wrinschen ['vrI.nSn=] ~ /vr?nS-/ wr?nschen
['vrY.nSn=] ~
   /r?nS-/ r?nschen ['r9.nSn=] ~ /r?nS-/ r?nschen
['r9.nSn=] 'to neigh'

/riid-/ rieden ['ri:dn=] (ik ried', du rittst, he
ritt, wi riedt ~
rieden;
   ik ree(d'); ik heff reden) 'to ride (an animal)'

/draav-/ draven ~ droven ~ droben ['drQ:vm=] ~
['dro:vm=] ~ ['dro:bm=]
 'to trot'

/drav(-d)/ Draff [draf] ~ Draft [draft] (masc.) 'trot'

/galop/ Galopp [ga'lOp] (masc.) 'gallop'

/galop-eir-n/ galoppeern [galO'pE.Irn] 'to gallop'

/h??/ h?! [hy(:)] (1) 'wo hee!' (leftward command);
(2) 'giddy up!',
   'gee up!' (forward command)
----end quote----

Horse related words in Danish:

hest (horse)

f?l (foal)
fole (young horse, now only literary in use)
fole (to give birth to a foal)

hingst (stallion)
klaphingst (stallion with one testicle)

vallak (gelding)

krikke (old or broken inferior horse)

krybbebider (crib biter - a horse with the habit of
swallowing air, it rests its teeth on the crib to get
the right angle on the throat for doing it. The air
can take up space inside the stomach and the horse
will then eat less and become skinny).

skimmel (bl?-, r?d-, gr?-, brun-, ?ble-) (greyish
horse, you can add blue-, red-, grey-, brown-, apple-,
to specify which colour of the coat is dominating, a
greyish horse is born red, black or brown and only
later in life it changes colour).

fuks (red horse)

man (mane)

blis (blaze, white line down the head)

hov (hoof)

sadel (saddle)

hestep?re (heste-p?re= horse-pear= dung)

t?jle (rein for riding horses)

t?mme (rein for cart horses)

t?mmev?rk (harness gear), sounds familiar but I am not
completely sure if that word is used.

vrinske (to neigh)

ride (to ride an animal)

trave (to trot)

trav (trot)

galop (a gallop)

galoppere (to gallop)

hyp / hyphyp (giddy up!)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Lone,

Thanks a lot for the terrific list (above)!  Much appreciated.

> As a long time horse affectionado, I was once told
> that most "Danish" words to do with horses are
> supposed to be loan words from German, but it seems we
> got some from Low Saxon...

Isn't this true of most cases of Low Saxon (Low German) loans in
Scandinavian, Baltic, Finnic and Kashubian?  They tended to be referred
to as "German" because it used to be the political line to include them
under the label "German."  Unless "German" loans are of fairly recent
dates and/or show clear (High) German phonological patterns, I would
always assume that these supposedly "German" loans are in fact Low Saxon
ones, certainly in Scandinavian (somewhat less assuredly so in
Kashubian, Baltic and Estonian, because the Germanic colonizers of those
areas were a mix of German and Low Saxon speakers, and there were some
Dutch and Flemish speakers also.

Thanks again for the list!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:06:49 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:06:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.140649.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (02) [E]

At 08:42 AM 06/10/02 -0700, Steve Feld wrote:
>My Dad and I learned a great deal about our family history while there,
>and even possible
>solved the mystery of the orgin of:
>
>Ollie, Ollie oxen free!!

Well, where I grew up, just north of Chicago, we would say, "Ollie,
ollie,
in come freedom".  I had always theorized that it was derived from Old
or
Middle English, "All ye, all ye, in-come freedom."

Ed Alexander
  Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 10 21:34:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:34:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.10 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.143416.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Semantics
So we get:
>
> English:                Lowlands
> Mainland Scots:         Lawlands
> Ulster Scots:           Lallans
> Shetlandic:             Laich Laands
> W. Frisian:             Lege Lannen
> Saterland E. Frisian:   Lijge Lounde
> Mooring N. Frisian:     L?ige L?nje
> Amrum N. Frisian:       Liach Lunen
> Dutch:                  Laagland
> Zeelandic:              Laege Landen
  Flemish:                Liige Lan' ('t platte land - 't vlakke land))
Don't forget the Flemish regions (Flemish is not a part of Zeelandic,
they
together are just quiet similar regardig that  Zeeland is a very tiny
region
compared with Flanders. Scientifically speaking I would  appoint
Zeelandic
as the most nordic form of Flemish.One (old) example: Around 1470 the
number
of inhabitants  are as following: Brabant 413 000 , Holland 268 000 ,
Gelre
140 000 , Limburg 16 000
Zeeland 11 000  and Flanders 750 000 !
In the search of looking for the multiple overlaps in the lowlandic
languages it would be very interesting to regard Flemish as a kind of
key to
various items, whish i think has not very much been discouvered.I can
give
you various reasons to make a profound discussion around that item.
> Afrikaans:              Lae Lande
> Stellingwarf Low Saxon: Lege Lanen
> Twente Low Saxon:       Leeglanden
> Mennonite Low Saxon:    L?aglaund
> Northern Low Saxon:     Leegland (Siedland?)
> Limburgish:             Liege Lenj ~ Leig Laan
>
> So, for the sake of consistency and mutual comprehension I just choose
> to use _Leegland_, _Leeglannen_ and _Leeglanner_, certainly don't
> *dictate* it (wouldn't give you bad marks or a slap with my ruler on
> your fingers if you chose to say _Siedland_).  And, yes, admittedly,
> _Leegland_ is vaguely reminiscent of English "badlands" (an arid, rugged
> region), and I kind of enjoy the "naughty" connotation too (Reinhard
> being related to Reynard [de Voss]).  :)
>
> Kumpelmenten,
> Reinhard/Ron

[Luc Vanbrabant]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Luc,

I would be all too happy to include Flemish everywhere and everytime.
The problem is that I cannot do so alone.  I must rely on the good
services of others, as I did when other lists were compiled and when our
webpages were created.  Marco Evenhuis was so kind as to volunteer
Zeelandic translations, and I was eager to snap it up.  What I am
driving at here is that I would gladly add a Flemish version of our
homepage (and one of the Rules and Guidelines page) if you and/or other
Flemings on the list would do the translating bit.  All you need to do
is send me the translated text, and I will post it.  Yes, folks, it
would be fine to have it in more than one Flemish (and/or Brabantish)
variety (as we do in the cases of Limburgish, Low Saxon, Frisian and
Scots).

By the way, a few people (both subscribers and non-subscribers) have
suggested that we post a "blurb" about each of our languages (including
Appalachian, about which quite a few people have asked), at least in
English.  By "blurb" I mean a very short introductory text, followed by
a link to the respective link list.  I responded by pointing out that we
do have those lists of links for the various languages, and many of the
links lead to such introductory texts.  But one of these good folks said
something like, "But you must also consider the type of web surfer that
is interested but is too lazy to search through lists of links or is not
web-savvy or -resourceful enough to do so."

I do like the idea, and I hope that enough among you like it enough to
help me put this together.  I would need volunteers who would write a
blurb for the language varieties of their expertise and send it to me
for posting.  These blurbs would have to be brief and in simple
language, with short sentences.  Of course it would be great to have
translations in the various Lowlands languages, but, if we went beyond
just English, for the moment higher on my wish list are translations
into "major" languages: French, German, Spanish, Portuguese and
Russian.  (Arabic, Chinese and Japanese would be great!)  But any other
language wound be appreciated, such as Danish, Italian, Polish, Turkish,
...  I wouldn't be choosy.  Actually, Scandinavian versions would be
great because of the strong links between the Lowlands and Scandinavia
and because many Scandinavians are still ill-informed about the "German"
(= Low Saxon) loans in their languages.

Please think about it, and share your reactions and ideas, either on the
List or privately with me (sassisch at yahoo.com)!  As always, team work
brings out the best and is good for bonding.  :)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 04:36:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:36:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.10 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.213629.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Names"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> That may be so, but everyone else that I know uses _Neddersassen_,
> _Nedersaksen_, _Neersassen_. etc. (dependent on their dialects) when
> speaking or writing Low Saxon (Low German), and I would be rather
> startled to hear someone say _Niedersachsen_ when speaking Low Saxon.  I
> gave that form in parentheses, which does not necessarily imply that it
> is the *origin*, simply means that it is the equivalent.

Moving over to the question of how to best to refer
to the language in English, something I've been
wondering about for a while is, wouldn't it be better
to say "Lowland Saxon" rather than "Low Saxon"? At
least it would send a clear message that the qualifier
is intended as a geographical distinction (say, from
Upper Saxony or even Highland Germany) rather than a
derogatory term.

Alternatively, adopting "Nethersaxon" or "Nether Saxon"
in English would do roughly the same job - but "Lowland
Saxon" seems clearer and therefore less prone to
misinterpretation.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Sandy,

Thanks for the input (above).

I tend to agree with you.  This "Low Saxon" had already been something
like a tradition in the Netherlands (Nedersaksisch) when I jumped on the
bandwagon.  I did try "Lowlands Saxon" for a while, but some people said
that "Low German" was already established and it therefore ought to be
"Low Saxon."  Besides, some pointed out that "Low" here (derived from
_Ned(d)er_ and _Plat(t)_) does *not* refer to the Lowlands but to the
traditionally low status, or "plain" vs "elevated." Well, I still take
that with a grain of salt.

Perhaps we should start with "Lowlands Saxon" in parentheses to ease
people into it?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 04:39:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:39:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (09) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.213919.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (01) [E]

08:29 10-6-2002 -0700, "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: etymnology

>I am particularly interested in the german verbs fragen, schlagen and
>tragen which have the past forms fragten, schlugen and trugen,
>and also the past participles gefragt, gesclagen and getragen.
>
>The other night I was looking at a table of Dutch verbs
> [...]
>each verb with its past forms as shown below:
>
>VRAGEN   vroegen   gevragen

Not quite. It's vragen, vroegen, gevraagd.

>SLAAN    sloegen   geslagen

Correct. Interestingly, we also have the verb "slagen" (= pass an
exam; succeed; manage to buy needed clothes that fit etc.), which goes:

SLAGEN, slaagde, geslaagd.

"Slaan" and "slagen" are sometimes confused in some of the language
areas, I think they are Groningen in the north, and Belgium in the
south.

>Of particular interest is the Dutch verb 'slaan,' whose infinitive
seems
>to be the odd one out. Was there ever a point where this verb was
>written as slagen?

See above. The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandsche Taal) says:
===
SLAGEN, bedr., en onz. zw. ww. Hd. schlagen. Gevormd van geslagen,
verl. deelw. van Slaan.
I) Als gewestelijke vorm naast slaan in de of althans in vele
toepassingen van dit woord. In zuidelijke dialecten en in Groningen
en Drenthe. Zie enkele voorbeelden bij SLAAN.
===
--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 21 May 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Grammar
>
>Holger:
>
>> In EFLS we often find auxiliary-verbs like "st??n" (to stand) or "g??n" >
(to
>> go) with an infinitive:
>> "wat sta:jst du: dor tau blaubekken ?" (why do you stand gaping ?)
>> theoretically this could occur with "daun" (to do), too but thinking it
>> over I can't find any example.
>
>This seems to be the construction in Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German)
>I had described earlier.  Do you think so?
>
>> Further about grammatical uses of 'to do', I should add that in her
>> dictionary of the Northeastern Low Saxon (Low German) dialects (of
>> Mecklenburg and Western Pomerania) Renate Herrmann-Winter lists one use
>> that I think is disappearing in other dialects (if it used to be more
>> widely spread).  _Doon_ ~ _daun_ 'to do' is used with the infinitive
>> form of the main verb preceded by _to_ ~ _tau_ ([to.U] ~ [teoU] ~ [ta.U]
>> ~ [teaU]) 'to' to express extended action, apparently often in the
>> context of disapproval; e.g., ... (Dutch-based spelling in parentheses)
>> ...
>>
>> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
>> (Wat daaist d??????ier taau zitn?)
>> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
>> What do you keep sitting around here for?
>>
>> Wat sall dat T??????s noch r??????uliggen daun?
>> (Wat zal dat tuugs noch rumtaaulign daaun?)
>> "What shall that/the stuff still around-to-lie do?")
>> What's that stuff supposed to keep lying around for?
>>
>> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>
>Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?
>
>*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten?
>
>*Wat sal d?? budel noch r??????uliggen daun?
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Hello Ron !

Here I am again a second time on the same feature. As I wrote last time
I
had a notion of having heard something similar to "wat s(gh)al dat dor
liegen daun ?" (why shall that continue to lie there ?) in Eastern
Friesland LS long time ago but considering the fact I cannot decide on
whether it is a real but forgotten experience or just a feeling based on
a
sub-conscious knowledge of general LS language structures that make such
a
construct seem possible.
The longer I think about it the more possible sentences like the above
mentioned example become.
Possibly You are right assuming a decrease in using "daun"-(to do)-
structures in LS has resulted from German influence. In former times
they
might have been much more widespread. If this is true for Eastern
Friesland
this process must have been very successful and it must have been farly
completed more than 40 years ago.

Kind regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 04:41:13 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:41:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.10 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.214113.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
 Server Manual: <http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html>
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=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.10 (07) [E]

Luc Vanbrabant wrote:

> Don't forget the Flemish regions (Flemish is not a part of Zeelandic,
> they
> together are just quiet similar regardig that  Zeeland is a very tiny
> region
> compared with Flanders. Scientifically speaking I would  appoint
> Zeelandic
> as the most nordic form of Flemish.

And Ron:

> I would be all too happy to include Flemish everywhere and everytime.
> The problem is that I cannot do so alone.  I must rely on the good
> services of others, as I did when other lists were compiled and when our
> webpages were created.  Marco Evenhuis was so kind as to volunteer
> Zeelandic translations, and I was eager to snap it up.  What I am
> driving at here is that I would gladly add a Flemish version of our
> homepage (and one of the Rules and Guidelines page) if you and/or other
> Flemings on the list would do the translating bit.  All you need to do
> is send me the translated text, and I will post it.  Yes, folks, it
> would be fine to have it in more than one Flemish (and/or Brabantish)
> variety (as we do in the cases of Limburgish, Low Saxon, Frisian and
> Scots).

I don't believe it was ever suggested that
Flemish, or rather Western Flemish, is part
of Zeelandic. Zeelandic and Western Flemish
are two closely related regional languages, and
would there not have been any of the artificial
political boundaries as there are today, I think
the differences between Zeelandic and Western-
Flemish would even be smaller than they are
now.
The reason these two are often mentioned as a
whole, is merely because the differences are so
little. There are far more linguistic differences
within the Low Saxon area, although Low Saxon
is considered to be one language. But there you
have it again: as always, it is all just a question
of definition.

Anyway, I really would welcome versions of the
homepage in Western Flemish, Eastern Flemish,
Brabantish dialects, etcetera.
But I do have a problem with the random usage
of the word 'Flemish' in this respect. Flemish can
mean the Standard Dutch with some regional
influence as it is officially spoken in Belgium (and
as it can be heard in most Belgian tv-broadcasts).
Flemish can mean the whole of germanic dialects
spoken in Belgium (with exception of the few
German en Letzebuergish dialects in the east).
Flemish can be used with reference to the former
county of Flanders, so the present-day provinces
of East- and West-Flanders.
Flemish is also used as a name for the germanic
dialects of the northernmost part of France, while
the dialects spoken there are in fact dialects of
Western Flemish. To complicate things: with
respect to grammar and vocabulary, these French
Flemish dialects have more in common with
Zeelandic than with the Western Flemish of
a city like Bruges... Etcetera.

Please note that Eastern Flemish is very different
from Western Flemish (Friso-Franconian) and is
mostly categorized by linguists as Brabantish
(Franconian). A nice map where this is clearly
illustrated, can be found on
http://httpd.chello.nl/~w.vanwoerkom/krant/kaart_nederlandgroot.htm

I would suggest to use the correct terms for these
regional languages, so Zeeuws (Zeelandic), Brabants
(Brabantish), West-Vlaams (Western Flemish) and
treat Estern Flemish as a sort of subcategory of
Brabantish (just like Eastern Frisian or Twents are
treated as varieties of Low Saxon).

Then Luc Vanbrabant gave the 'Flemish' (so actually
the Western Flemish) name for the Lowlands:
_liig lan'_. This spelling points out another
interesting issue: Western Flemish hasn't yet got
a standard spelling or even some more or less
generally accepted basic principles for spelling
the language. For example, Luc's _liig lan'_ is
also spelled by others as:
_leege landen_
_lieege landen_
_ljeehe landn_
_l?he lann_
_liehe laann_
etcetera.

In Ze?uws, where both _laeg_ and _le?g_ are used
for _low_ (but _le?g is getting a bit old-fashioned)
this would be spelled as _l?ge landen_, which sounds
exactly the same as Luc's Western Flemish. A standard
spelling for all Zeelandic dialects, that can also be used
for Western Flemish dialects (although I actually hope
that Western Flemish eventually gets its own,
'customized' spelling), can be found at
www.zeeuws.cjb.net (click on 'schriefwiezer').

So if there is someone out there who is willing to write
texts for the homepage in Western Flemish, which I
hope there is, I would strongly advise to make sure
that the spelling that is used is at least consistent and
not just as 'illegible' to outstanders as possible. The
latter is very often the case with texts from regions
where people are just starting to find out that their
own language can actually be written.
I think Western Flanders (and that goes for Zeeland
as well) is lucky that they have a few good examples of
consistent, legible and well-founded spellings. Guido
Gezelle did some good, but very Dutch orientated work
and the works of Edmond de Coussemaeker, a 19th
century priest from French Flanders, on spelling are
excellent.
More recently, I found the spelling of the Western Flemish
dialect of Oostende on www.oostends.be quite good and
easy to read, although a bit inconsistent here and there.
To conclude I give you a few lines from a children's song
about a horse (_peerd_, _peird_, _paerd_, _rosse_, _orse_)
that De Coussemaker picked up in Kapellebroek
(Capellebrouck to the French):

Juteko te peeretje
te Cassel om e steeretje
t'Yper om azyn
is er t'Yper geene
gaot van dao nao Meenen
Is t't te Meenen goe koop
Brynckt er mee vuuf, zes stoop
Peeretje wil je wat zeere goan loopen
'k Za je e bakje vul haver koopen
't Peeretje liep den dryf den draf
En 't en hadde moar e bakje vul kaf.

Good luck to anyone who wants to give it a go with
Western Flemish, Eastern Flemish or Brabantish
translations!

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 05:00:48 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 22:00:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (11) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.10.JUN.2002.220048.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 10.JUN.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Dear Lowlanders,

I (not very familiar with horses and unfortunately allergic to them,
though very appreciative of them) submitted the Low Saxon term:

> /kr?p-n+biit-r/ Kr?ppenbieter ['krYpm=bi:t3] ~
> /kr?f-n+biit-r/
>    Kr?ppenbieter ['krYfm=bi:t3] 'inferior horse',
> '(old) nag'
>    ("crib biter," probably because it is not fed as
> well as more able
>    horses -- sad, but such are country life and the
> "good" old days)

Lone Olesen (very familiar with horses and probably not allergic to
them) kindly responded with the Danish equivalent:

> krybbebider (crib biter - a horse with the habit of
> swallowing air, it rests its teeth on the crib to get
> the right angle on the throat for doing it. The air
> can take up space inside the stomach and the horse
> will then eat less and become skinny).

Thanks for clearing that up, Lone.  It's sad enough a story, though not
as sad as the one I had fantasized about (i.e., a horse gnawing on the
wood of a crib for lack of food ...).

Below are a few more horse terms, some of them with question marks of
varying sizes, thus requiring your input, folks.

Is there a special Low Saxon (and/or other Lowlandic) term for a horse's
tail?  I can't think of any.  German has _Schweif_, which, although not
totally exclusive to horses, tends to be used most frequently in
connection with horses (and shooting stars), though more generic
_Schwanz_ 'tail' is also used (and the hairstyle "ponytail" is
_Pferdeschwanz_ "horse's tail").  In Low Saxon (Low German), I can think
only of generic _Steert_ [stE.I3t] ~ _Stiert_ [sti:3t] ~ _Start_ [sta:t]
(masc., pl. _Steerten_ ~ _Stierten_ ~ _Starten_), in some dialects
_Swanz_ [sva.n(t)s] ~ _Schwanz_ [Sva.n(t)s] ~ _Swan?_ [sva.ns] (masc.,
pl. _Sw?nz_ [svE.n(t)s] ~ _Schw?nz_ [SvE.n(t)s] ~ _Sw?n?_ [svE.ns]).

(By the way, _Kohsteert_ [ko.UstE.I3t] "cow tail" can mean either 'cow's
tail' or 'dragonfly', the latter alternative to _Waterjumfer_
['vQ;t3jU.mf3] "water maiden" and _Speckfreter_ ['spEkfre:t3] "bacon
eater" ...)

What is the Low Saxon (Low German) word for "stirrup"?  My guess is that
it is *_Stiegb?gel_ *['sti:Cb?:gl=], considering German _Steigb?gel_,
Dutch _stijgbeugel_, Afrikaans _stiebeuel_, (not predictable
*_stybeuel_!), and (LS >) Danish _stigb?jle_.  Can anyone confirm or
deny Low Saxon *_Stiegb?gel_?

What is the Low Saxon (Low German) word for "spur"?  German has _Sporn_
~ _Spore_ (pl. _Sporen_), Dutch and Afrikaans have _spoor_, Danish
_spore_, and Old Saxon _sporo_.  So my guess for Modern Low Saxon is
(*_Spore_ ~ >) *_Spoor_ (*[spo:3] or *[spo.U3]?).  Any input would be
appreciated.

Some more Low Saxon horse-related words:

/zeel/ Seel [ze:l] ~ [zE:l] 'rope', '(horse's) harness' (neut., pl.
   Selen)

/zeel-n+t??g/ Selent??g ['ze:lnty:C] ~ ['zE:lnty:C] '(horse's) harness'
   (neut., uncountable; < + T??g 'stuff', 'paraphernalia')

/peir(d')+k??p-r/ Peerk?per ~ Pierkeuper ['pE:I3k9.Ip3] ~ ['pi:3k9.Ip3]
   'horse dealer' (masc., pl. Peerk?pers ~ Pierkeupers; + K?per 'buyer'
   < /k??p-/ k?pen 'to buy')

/peir(d')+t?xt-r/ Peert?chter ~ Piert?chter ['pE:I3tYCt3] ~
   ['pi:3tYCt3] ("horses cultivator") 'horse breeder' (masc., pl.
   Peert?chters ~ Piert?chters < Tucht [tUXt] 'breed' < _teh(g)en_
   'to pull/raise'; a German loan (Z?chter < Zucht)?; might Danish
   _hesteopdr?tter_ "horses up-raiser" 'horse breeder' be a calque
   based on older Low Saxon *_peyrdeopteyger_, cf. Modern Low Saxon
   _(up- ~ op-)te(g)hen_ 'to pull/raise (up)', 'to raise (children or
   animals)' (p. part. (ge-)tagen), e.g., Boorn un tagen was ik in
   Hamborg 'I was born and raised in Hamburg')

/peir(d')+stal/ Peerstall ~ Pierstall ['pE:I3sta.l] ~ ['pi:3sta.l]
   'hose stable' (masc., pl. Peerst?ll ~ Pierst?ll ['pE:I3stE.l] ~
   ['pi:3stE.l]; Danish _hestestald_; < + Stall 'stable')

/peir(d')+deek/ Peerdeek ~ Pierdeek ['pE:I3de:k] ~ ['pi:3de:k] 'horse
   blanket' (fem., pl. Peerdeken ~ Pierdeken; cf. Danish _hested?kken_;
   < + Deek 'cover', 'blanket')

/stal+knext/ Stallknecht ['sta.lknEC(t)] 'stable hand', 'groom'
   (masc., pl. Stallknechten; cf. Dutch _stalknecht_; < Stall
   'stable' + Knecht 'servant', 'farmhand' {cognate of English
   "knight"})

/peir(d')+kamer/ Peerkamer ~ Pierkomer ['pE:I3kQ:k3] ~ ['pi:3ko:m3]
   'groom's room (next to the horse stables)' (fem., pl. Peerkamern
   ~ Pierkomern; < + Kamer ~ Komer 'chamber', '(small) room')

Hmmm ... and then there is this _klaphingst_, _klophingst_, etc.
(stallion with one testicle).  I am not familiar with this rather
specialized term (or the condition, and I don't understand this
reference to _kloppen_ 'to knock' or _klappen_ 'to knock', 'to clap',
'to fold').  I would expect something like *_Klopphingst_ or
*_Klapphingst_ in Low Saxon then, but I do not know if it exists.

By the way, _Klapp_ [klap] (fem., pl. _Klappen_) can also refer to a
small stable door (besides 'tailgate', 'flap' or '(hinged) lid'), one of
those that does not cover the entire doorway, fairly typical of horse
stables, I guess.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 18:01:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:01:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.11 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.110151.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Slagen-Dragen-Vragen

Beste leeglanners,

In Brabantish the verb "slaan" does not exist...not with a meaning of
"to hit" nor with a meaning of "to succeed"...only "slagen" is used...I
tend to think the variety with no "g" in the middle is restricted to
coastal areas along the North Sea...especially because there
traditionally such a "g" is very lightly (more like an "h" or not at
all) pronounced.
We have :
slagen-sloeg-geslagen (or geslegen); meaning usually "to hit, to beat"
or "to slaughter (an animal)"
dragen-droeg-gedragen (or gedregen); meaning usually "to carry, to bear"
vragen-vroeg-gevraagd ; meaning usually "to ask"
It would surprise me very much if ever the verb "slaan" was used in an
older version of Brabantish, but as I told you before, I don't have my
books with me here in Bangkok, so please correct me if I'm wrong...
If we want to express the fact that somebody has succeeded in something,
or has passed a test (in standard Dutch : "geslaagd") we'd say :
"A est er deu" in Brabantish, litterally "Hij is er door" in Dutch. I
can't think immediately of a specific verb expressing the (rather
abstract) meaning of "slagen" (D), "to succeed" (E)...unless "lukken"
maybe but that usually refers to objects, not so much to people.
Greetings...

Luc Hellinckx

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 18:04:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:04:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.11 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.110441.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Slagen-Dragen-Vragen

Beste leeglanners,

In Brabantish the verb "slaan" does not exist...not with a meaning of
"to hit" nor with a meaning of "to succeed"...only "slagen" is used...I
tend to think the variety with no "g" in the middle is restricted to
coastal areas along the North Sea...especially because there
traditionally such a "g" is very lightly (more like an "h" or not at
all) pronounced.
We have :
slagen-sloeg-geslagen (or geslegen); meaning usually "to hit, to beat"
or "to slaughter (an animal)"
dragen-droeg-gedragen (or gedregen); meaning usually "to carry, to bear"
vragen-vroeg-gevraagd ; meaning usually "to ask"
It would surprise me very much if ever the verb "slaan" was used in an
older version of Brabantish, but as I told you before, I don't have my
books with me here in Bangkok, so please correct me if I'm wrong...
If we want to express the fact that somebody has succeeded in something,
or has passed a test (in standard Dutch : "geslaagd") we'd say :
"A est er deu" in Brabantish, litterally "Hij is er door" in Dutch. I
can't think immediately of a specific verb expressing the (rather
abstract) meaning of "slagen" (D), "to succeed" (E)...unless "lukken"
maybe but that usually refers to objects, not so much to people.
Greetings...

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (11) [E]

Ron asked:

> What is the Low Saxon (Low German) word for "stirrup"?  My guess is that
> it is *_Stiegb?gel_ *['sti:Cb?:gl=], considering German _Steigb?gel_,
> Dutch _stijgbeugel_, Afrikaans _stiebeuel_, (not predictable
> *_stybeuel_!), and (LS >) Danish _stigb?jle_.  Can anyone confirm or
> deny Low Saxon *_Stiegb?gel_?

You mention Afrikaans _stiebeuel_, which sounds very
Zeelandic to me for the obvious reason that it has an _ie_
in stead of an Afrikaans _y_ (Dutch _ij_). In Zeelandic,
'stirrup' is _stiegbeugel_. Note that the g's in this word
are pronounced as an h (_stiehbeuhel), so the Zeelandic
and the Afrikaans words sound very similar indeed.
I always wondered about the influence of Zeelandic on
Afrikaans. It must have been quite substantial since a
large part, if not the majaority, of the first settlers in the
Western Cape were of Zeelandic origin. In other parts of
the world (US Virgin Islands: 'Negerhollands', Guyana:
'Berbice Dutch' and 'Skepi Dutch', the state of New
York 'Mohawk Dutch') the marks that 'Dutch' left
behind, are predominantly Zeelandic and can easily be
identified as such. I kind of expected the same for Afrikaans,
but apart from this _stiebeuel_ and some other small
examples, the Zeelandic influence in Afrikaans is not that
clear at all.

To come back to the 'horse-issue', Ron mentions the _klaphingst_
or _klophingst_. I already mentioned Zeelandic has the same word
for this handicaped stallion (with one testicle): _klop'iengst_. One
would expect it to be a Standard Dutch term as well, but as far as I
know it isn't.
Zeeuws has the verb _kloppe(n)_ in the meaning of 'to sharpen
a scythe'. I believe it goes a bit too far to state that a _klop'iengst_
is a horse that met a well sharpened scythe...

Anyway, a few more Zeelandic words related to horses:

_paerebagge_: feeding basket for horses
_paereb?nen_: garden beans (once only good for horse food)
_paereme?ster_: a veterinary
_paeremogge_: crane fly
_paerepo?t_: club-foot
_paerero?ze_: peony (Paeonia officianalis)
_'t paerestal_: horse stable
_paerestekel_: ? (Dypsacus silvestris)
_paerewachtertje_: wagtail (Motacilla alba)
_paerig_: in heat (only used in respect to horses)

and then:
_paerig_: forming a pair together
_paer_: even (French: pair)
_onpaer_: odd (French: impair)

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 18:07:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:07:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Roots" 2002.06.11 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.110716.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Sachsen780 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (02) [E]

Hi Rheinhard,

thank you for correcting me for how I had written my first note to the
group.  How
important it is to be concise when addressing the particulars of
linguistic detail.

As I am a novice to the particulars of my ancestral language, I find the
tightrope to
tread between my use of standard (American) english, high German and low
Saxon very
invigorating to say the least.

As I have researched my surname family history, I have learned that the
part of Germany
now called Lower Saxony has had quite a few name changes since the late
1700's.  However,
from my studies I believe that rural peoples have always considered
themselves to be of
their own local realm instead of members of the state (except for on
ship's lists,
official certificates, et cetera), whatever the new name.

So, the friends I have made in Emsland consider themselves an Emslander,
as the people of
the past most certainly did.

Thanks to this format I am able to correctly refer to place names and
spoken language in
discussion.  My people likely spoke Neddersassisch or Low Saxon.  How
thrilling it was to
be in Wettrup (in Emsland) recently, enjoying Krombacher beer with local
folk,
communicating in what I thought was the language of my ancestors.  Low
Saxon speakers
there offered to me that those ancestors did not speak high German when
they emigrated,
and that they would not understand most people in their homeland if in
someway they were
to return.  How enlightening that was.

Thanks for the lesson.

S  T  E  V  E

p.s. I pledge to keep my remarks/queries brief in the future.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 11 23:20:38 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:20:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.11 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.11.JUN.2002.162038.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 11.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.10 (09) [D/E]

>From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
>Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.07 (07) [E/LS]
>
>>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>>Subject: Grammar
...
>>>
>>> Wat deist du hier tau sitten?
>>> (Wat daaist d??????ier taau zitn?)
>>> "Wat dost thou here to sit?"
>>> What do you keep sitting around here for?
...>>> Is there anything similar in other language varieties?
>>
>>Would this work in your Eastern Friesland variety?
>>
>>*Wat da:jst du: hi:r tau sitten?

Hello Ron !
By the way - it is "hier" not "hi:r". I don't use the German based
orthography for EFLS so ~ie~ isn't a long ~i~. /i:/ and /ie/ are
different
sounds (phonemes).
Have an example: "bi:l" [bi:l] (hatchet) / "biel" [bI:l or bI. at l]
(buttock)
Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 14:20:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:20:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.12 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.072024.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: "Jorge Potter" <jorgepot at caribe.net>
Subject: LL-L "Sayings" 2002.06.10 (02) [E]

Dear Lowlanders,

As a child between 9 and 12 years of age I lived in a central New York
community that was more than half of German descent, but I never heard
German spoken. We always used "Alley, alley in free!" in tag games, but
it
never occurred to me it could come from German. Later on when I acquired
a
smattering of words in different languages, I assumed it was the French
"allez," in spite of the fact our area had no French people.

"Alles" makes sense.

Jorge Potter

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 14:35:18 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 07:35:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.12 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.073518.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
Subject: Etymology

Subject: Etymology
David Elsmworth wrote:
As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
all
exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
the equivalent german verbs.
However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen are strong irregular
verbs, fragen is in fact a weak
verb, which is somewhat quite puzzling.

I feel also why the past form of "fragen" is "frgte", but not "frug".
But in old time, it should
habe been "frug".  I am not a native speaker of German, and not a
"Fachsprachwissenschaftler".  I
think that language is cahnging every day. In some time, the form of
"frug" was not used gradually
and changed to "fragte". Can any one give your opinion or comment?

Regards,

Yasuji Waki

Yasuji Waki
E-mail: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
Addr: 1-2-6-104, Midoridai, Funabashi,
Chiba Pref. Japan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Actually, German /fraag-/ _fragen_ 'to ask' is still both a weak and a
strong verb, depending on one's dialect.  It is true that most people
now use the preterite form _fragte_ (i.e., treat the verb as weak), but
some speakers and writers, especially older ones, still can be observed
to use _frug_ (i.e., treat the verb as strong).  I therefore believe it
is fair to say that German /fraag-/ is in a late stage of transition to
becoming a strong verb.

Low Saxon (Low German) also has variation in /fraag-/ 'to ask' between
strong (preterite _froog'_ [fro:UG] ~ _froog_ [fro.Ux] ~ _fr??g'_
[fr9:Ij] ~ _fr??g_ [fr9.IC]) and weak (preterite _fraagte_ ~ _fraagde_
['frQ:xte] ~ ['fro:xte]), again depending on the dialect.  It would be
interesting to find out if there, too, there is a shift toward the weak
choice, and, if so, if this is because of the shift in ("High") German.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 15:36:20 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:36:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.083620.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

Dear Lowlanders,

It happens quite often that (former) subscribers write to me asking to
be readmitted to Lowlands-L, and most of them turn out to have assumed
that I had "kicked them out" because of non-participation (i.e., being
charged guilty of excessive lurking).  In most cases (especially in
cases of habitual lurkers) I had not even noticed that they were no
longer subscribed.  In a couple of cases, the returning subscribers had
assumed that I had "kicked them out" for excessive participation or for
some sort of _faux pas_ or misdemeanor.

Please let me make this quite clear once and for all:

(1) I would *never* kick anyone out without due prior warning and a
number of attempts to get them to mend their ways, and I would
communicate with them about this privately.  This has happened very
rarely in the seven-year history of Lowlands-L.  Such a thing does not
happen unless there is gross misbehavior (e.g., "flaming," verbal or
psychological abuse, or flagrant expressions of disrespect) or repeated
breaking of the rules and no hope of redemption.

(2) "Lurking" (i.e., being a passive, reading subscriber rather than a
participating, "vocal" one) is not against the rules.  In fact, it is
your right to lurk to your hearts' content.  This personal choice would
never make you subscribers in bad standing (though I would encourage you
to participate if all that is holding you back are a feeling of
intimidation, perceived lack of language skills or "academic expertise,"
and/or fear of being ridiculed, for I will not permit anyone to be put
down, and our participants are not inclined to do so anyway).

(3) If you suddenly find yourself unsubscribed (i.e., the LL-L issues
stop coming for more than, say, four days), the most likely reason is
that the list server (a machine/program, not a person) has automatically
unsubscribed you.  It does so whenever mail to your address keeps
bouncing back as undeliverable for a number of days.  The server will
try to redeliver the mail quite a number of times, for several days, in
certain intervals.  It will give up at a certain point and will
unsubscribe the problematic address.  More often than not, the reason is
that someone has allowed his or her mailbox to be filled to capacity
("over quota") and has not done anything about it for many days.  This
is why I suggest you unsubscribe if your mail quota is small and you
travel somewhere where you have no access to your email, and then to
resubscribe after your return.

(4) To resubscribe, you can write to me (sassisch at yahoo.com).  Better
still, use the subscription application form on our welcoming pages
(http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/) and in the textbox
("What you hope to gain from being a subscriber to Lowlands-L") just
mention that you are a returning subscriber.  The application will come
to me (or whoever stands in for me), and I (or he/she) will make sure
that you are resubscribed.

On another note, let me ask if we have any volunteers willing to write
those introductory blurbs about Lowlands languages.  They must be brief,
could even be as brief one paragraph each.  The way I envisage it is
having one intro blurb for one language or "group of language
varieties," and then linked to it optional blurbs about special language
varieties.  For instance, we would have a blurb for Scots and then
"sub-blurbs" for Mainland Scots, Ulster Scots and Shetlandic.  Later we
could expand by adding "sub-sub-blurbs" for any specific dialects anyone
cares to write about.  If you wish, you could write in teams and then
send it to me for posting.  Or you could write a blurb draft and post it
as such to the List, inviting input/critique from others before
submitting the final blurb.  You could always change the text later,
even after it has been posted on the web.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 16:06:56 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 09:06:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.12 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.090656.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2002.06.12 (02) [E]

> From: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Subject: Etymology
> David Elsmworth wrote:
> As can be seen, this group of verbs are clearly irregular in Dutch and
> all
> exhibit the same vowel changes in the corresponding past tense, as do
> the equivalent german verbs.
> However, in German, whilst schalgen and tragen are strong irregular
> verbs, fragen is in fact a weak
> verb, which is somewhat quite puzzling.
>
> I feel also why the past form of "fragen" is "frgte", but not "frug".
> But in old time, it should
> habe been "frug".  I am not a native speaker of German, and not a
> "Fachsprachwissenschaftler".  I
> think that language is cahnging every day. In some time, the form of
> "frug" was not used gradually
> and changed to "fragte". Can any one give your opinion or comment?
>
> Regards,
>
> Yasuji Waki
>
> Yasuji Waki
> E-mail: y-waki at pf6.so-net.ne.jp
> Addr: 1-2-6-104, Midoridai, Funabashi,
> Chiba Pref. Japan
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Grammar
>
> Actually, German /fraag-/ _fragen_ 'to ask' is still both a weak and a
> strong verb, depending on one's dialect.  It is true that most people
> now use the preterite form _fragte_ (i.e., treat the verb as weak), but
> some speakers and writers, especially older ones, still can be observed
> to use _frug_ (i.e., treat the verb as strong).  I therefore believe it
> is fair to say that German /fraag-/ is in a late stage of transition to
> becoming a strong verb.
>
> Low Saxon (Low German) also has variation in /fraag-/ 'to ask' between
> strong (preterite _froog'_ [fro:UG] ~ _froog_ [fro.Ux] ~ _fr??g'_
> [fr9:Ij] ~ _fr??g_ [fr9.IC]) and weak (preterite _fraagte_ ~ _fraagde_
> ['frQ:xte] ~ ['fro:xte]), again depending on the dialect.  It would be
> interesting to find out if there, too, there is a shift toward the weak
> choice, and, if so, if this is because of the shift in ("High") German.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Actually, I lived in Palatia for five years, on the Rhine near
Ludwigshafen (roughly around Heidelberg). People there say "er fr?gt"
for "he asks", in analogy with "er schl?gt" (he beats) and "er tr?gt"
(he carries). To a Northern German like me, however, that sounds
horribly wrong...

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Grammar

Actually, Gabriele, I have heard some people say _er fr?gt_ [?Ea fre:ct]
in Hamburg Missingsch* as well.  One person I remember using that form
grew up in the northwestern part of Hamburg (Altona.  But in Hamburg you
never really know what kinds of language strata accumulations you are
dealing with, because people from all over Germany (and beyond) have
settled there (many of them would-be emigrants who did not make it onto
ships), and some families have their own substrata of their ancestral
non-local dialects.  (My own family would be a case in point, because
three of my grandparents were born and raised far away in the east, and
the fourth's mother came from Eastern Prussia from a town that iis now
on the Polish-Russian border.)

* "Missingsch" denotes German dialects based on Low Saxon (Low German)
  substrata ("German with Low Saxon interference," if you will).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 19:01:40 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 12:01:40 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.12 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.120140.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.10 (03) [E]

Dear Ron, Lowlanders

The Scots term for an English person is,"sassensach." I personally feel
that this must be connected to the Low Saxon word to describe a saxon.

Regards
David Elsworth.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

David,

Apparently you are right (above).  Scottish Gaelig _Sasunn_ is 'England'
(originally "Saxon") and _Sasannach_ is 'English' (either adjective or
nominal 'English person', originally "Saxon").  Note also names like
Irish _Sacs-Bh?arla_ for 'English language' ("Saxon gobbledigook"),
_Saxain_ for 'England' and _Saxanach_ for 'English (person)'.  Manx has
_Sostyn_ for 'England' and _Sostnagh_ for 'English (person)'  Similarly
Breton has _Bro-Saoz_ 'England' and _saozneg_ 'English (language)'
(though lately French-based _Bro an Anglizien_ and _anglich_
respectively have been encroaching).  Of course, this required these
languages to create new names for "real" 'Saxon' etc., e.g., Irish
_Saxa_

On the other hand, note that Finnish has _Saksa_ (originally "Saxony")
for 'Germany' (and _saksalainen_ for 'German', _saksan kieli_ for
'German language', etc.), similarly Estonian _Saksa_ (_sakslane_ and
_saksa keel_), obviously because medieval Saxony (today's Northern
Germany, from which Saxon-speaking Hanseatic traders reached Baltic
seaports) came to represent the earlier vague entity "Germany."  Again,
later this required creating new names for "real" 'Saxony', etc., e.g.,
Finnish _Saksi_ 'Saxony', _saksilainen_ 'Saxon', _saksin kieli_ 'Saxon
language', similarly Estonian _Saksi_, _saks_, _saksi keel_
respectively.

Regards.
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 12 21:58:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 14:58:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.12 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.12.JUN.2002.145841.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Kudos to Gary Taylor, one of our subscribers, who has taken the first
step toward an online "blurb" collection about Lowlands language
varieties.  He has written a brief introduction to Estuary English, a
dialect of England English.  I find it very interesting and have asked
Gary if I could share it with you before it ends up in an online
collection (whenever that will be), and Gary kindly agreed to that.
Please find a copy further below.

Gary and other British-savvy Lowlanders, the description sounds pretty
much like the dialect of several people I have heard talk "on the
tellie" lately.  Would the English TV cook Jamie Oliver (of "The Naked
Chef" and "Oliver's Twist" fame) be one of those speakers?

Lowlanders, please note that Gary wrote his intro without knowing what
format to use.  I think he did a great job.

Personally, I favor the following setup:

1 Overall language introductions should be concise, briefly outlining
  origin (including classification), history, spread, varieties,
  speakers, media use (incl. literature), and administrative and
  educational status.  (It would be good to use subheadings.)
  Altogether, an introduction should probably not exceed four
  word-processed pages and could be as brief as a quarter of a page.

2 Introductions to specific dialects or dialect groups (to which we
  will link off the respective overall language introductions) can be
  in any format.  I would like to see them as small essay-type
  descriptions that are written in the authors' preferred formats
  and styles.  I do not think that uniformity is necessary.  Gary's
  format and style would be one of many possibilities.

Gary and I agree that his introduction to Estuary English will serve as
type 2, linked to from the general introduction page for English.
Please feel free to add other such descriptions -- the more the
merrier.  (English dialects do not have to be only those used in England
but can be any type of English anywhere in the world.)

If you, either singly or in groups, write 1- or 2-type introductions
(about *any* Lowlands language varieties or groups), you might like but
are not obligated to post final draft versions to the List (either
directly or via me) to invite some feedback/input from others before
they are published on the web.

If you do not feel confident writing in English you could either write
your introduction in your own language or in a language in which you
feel more confident, and someone will translate it.  (These do not have
to be Lowlands languages.)  In that case the original version and the
English translation will be posted, hopefully later other translations
as well.  If you do not feel too sure about your English proficiency but
wish to write in English anyway, someone will proofread your draft, and
only the polished version will be posted on the web.

The names of the authors will appear with their works.  By submitting
your "blurbs" you will be considered agreeing to have them posted on the
web.

Please remember that no language variety ought to and will be viewed as
insignificant or uninteresting, and perceived qualities such as
"unsophisticated" or "low-class" are totally irrelevant, though
sociolinguistic aspects such as commonly held perceptions of levels of
prestige may and perhaps should be mentioned in the introductions.

Again, thanks to Gary Taylor for taking the lead so admirably ably!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

ESTUARY ENGLISH

by Gary Taylor

Estuary English, or Popular London English, is the form of English as
spoken in London and the South East of England and is currently gaining
some ground as a new 'standard' for England English being used by many
newsreporters, politicians and prominent people. The accent is largely
based on London Cockney English with the most 'frowned upon' features
taken out. As standard England English (RP) developed from a triangle
between London, Oxford and Cambridge, many of the dialect words of this
area were incorporated into the standard. This has the result that
Estuary doesn't have many unique local dialect words, however the accent
often differs from RP. Below are some of the main differences:

* Glottaling. This refers to changing a t in syllable final position
into a glottal stop.  For example " get " > " ge' " (In Cockney this is
extended to t between vowels [be'er instead of better])

* l-vocalisation. This refers to the changing of l before a consonant,
or l in phrase final position to a sound similar to 'w' or 'u'.  For
example " milk " > " mi-wk " " hell " > " he-w " but " hell and back "
hell am back " (l pronounced due to the following a) l-vocalisation
leads to lots of words collapsing to sound the same when not followed by
a vowel. For example " fool " " full " and " fall " are all pronounced
identically as " fu-w " but before vowels they are pronounced as in RP.
"fail" and "foul" are pronounced "fow" (to rhyme with "now") when not
followed by a vowel, but the same as RP with a vowel.

* The 'or' split. This refers to the sound 'or' of RP as in 'bought' and
'door' (note, the r in this position is not pronounced in RP English so
the sound is the same for both). In Estuary this RP 'or' has split
depending on the position. If the base word has this sound and then a
consonant then in Estuary it is pronounced 'u-w'. If there is no
consonant then it is pronounced 'or' as in RP.  Thus 'door' is
pronounced as in RP, whereas 'corn' is pronounced 'cu-wn'. This leads to
interesting differences in pronunciation between 'bored' and 'board'
(identical in RP). 'bored' is based on the word 'bore' so is pronounced
as in RP 'bord', however 'board' being followed by a consonant is
pronounced 'bu-wd' (which is identical with Estuary 'bald'!).

* Palatalisations. When a t is followed by a u (yu) or an r it has the
pronunciation of ch. The combination 'stu' and 'str' are pronounced
'shchu' and 'shchr' respectively For example " Tuesday " = " Choozdi " "
train " = " chrain " " stupid " = " shchupid " " string " = " shchring "

* Linking letters. Estuary has many linking letters, which although
quite common in England English, are less common in the other
Englishes.  Linking y : 'me and you' = 'meyan yu' 'high up' = 'hiyupp'
'AAA' = 'AyAyA' Linking w : 'you and me' = 'yuwan me' 'do it again' =
'dowi' agen' Linking r : 'Canada is' = 'Canadariz' 'drawing' = 'drorin'

I howp youv injoid this littuw look a' Eshchry Ingglish

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 13 14:47:35 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 07:47:35 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.074735.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.12 (05) [E]

14:58 12-6-2002 -0700, Lowlands-L:
Gary Taylor, about Estuary English:

>* l-vocalisation. This refers to the changing of l before a consonant,
>or l in phrase final position to a sound similar to 'w' or 'u'.  For
>example " milk " > " mi-wk " " hell " > " he-w " but " hell and back "
>hell am back " (l pronounced due to the following a).

I sometimes wonder if there could be some historic link in the
development of such accents across he North Sea, because the l in
Dutch is so similar: in the "standard" accent in is slightly dark in
exactly the same positions as in English RP, but the stronger
darkening a.k.a. vocalisation as described above also occurs in
accents in the West of the Netherlands, especially the Hague, but
also Rotterdam, Amsterdam etc.
So the verbs "vernieuwen" and "vernielen" (renew; demolish, destroy)
sound very different, but the past participles "verniewd" and
"vernield" have almost identical pronunciation.

There are also strong similarities (and small differences) between
oo-sounds (as in English boat, Dutch boot) in RP and Estuary, and in
Rotterdam and the Hague city accents. A similar sound occurs in
Breda (Brabant). Also in Groningen accents of Dutch (influenced by
Low-Saxon?), Low-Saxon as heard on Radio Bremen, and in L?tzeburgesch.
I don't say they're all the same, but they are a bit similar.

Of course acoustic similarity doesn't necessary betray geographical
proximity or historical links: the vocalised l is also found in
Brasil, which almost sounds as Bras?u there.
--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 12 June 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Ruud:

> Of course acoustic similarity doesn't necessary betray geographical
> proximity or historical links: the vocalised l is also found in
> Brasil, which almost sounds as Bras?u there.

I would say it does sound just like [br@'ziu] in many cases, in other
cases perhaps like [br@'ziw].  I believe this occurs also in some
dialects of Portugal.  In Portuguese, syllable-final /l/ is always velar
("thick," as in English "ball"), thus _Brasil_ [br@'ziL\].  A shift from
velar [L\] to [w] (and [u]) is very common among the world's languages,
and it does tend to occur in clusters, thus as an areal feature.  The
velar /l/ (written as a slashed <l>) in most Polish, Kashubian, Lower
Sorbian and Upper Sorbian dialects is also pronounced [w] (like English
"w" in "won" or "how").  In Standard Lower and Upper Sorbian this
totally coincides phonetically with what is written <w> (as though they
were the same phoneme, unlike Polish and Kashubian where <w> is
pronounced [v]), but the two are still distinguished orthographically.

Low Saxon (Low German) also has a velar allophone of /l/, always
syllable-finally, as in Portuguese, but in most dialects only after back
vowels (/ul/, /uul/ /ol/, /ool/, /oul/, /aal/), and in some dialects it
may be realized as [w] after back rounded vowels (/ul/, /uul/ /ol/,
/ool/, /oul/).  However, assumedly under German influence, this
distinction between apical ("tongue tip") [l] and velar [L\] appears to
be falling by the wayside in the Low Saxon dialects of Germany, and the
velar allophone seems to be vanishing.  So, for instance _Uul_ 'owl'
used to be (and by some speakers still is) pronounced [?u:L\] or even
[?u:w], but you will now hear mostly [?u:l].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 13 19:15:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 12:15:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.121534.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (01) [E]

May I add that Low Saxon from the Rendsborg District
in Slesvig-Holsten has a similar l-dropping in words
as e.g. "milk" which we pronounce "mee-ak"

----------

From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (01) [E]

Hi,

You forgot the dialect of the city of Leiden (Leyden). There they really
have the English L!! Also in the west. Of Holland.

W!M   wkv at home.nl
[Wim Verdoold]

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Dear all

Ruud wrote:

>I sometimes wonder if there could be some historic
link in the
>development of such accents across he North Sea,
because the l in
>Dutch is so similar: in the "standard" accent in is
slightly dark in
>exactly the same positions as in English RP, but the
stronger
>darkening a.k.a. vocalisation as described above also
occurs in
>accents in the West of the Netherlands, especially
the Hague, but
>also Rotterdam, Amsterdam etc.

As Ron also says, l-vocalisation is particularly
common in languages. It does tend to occur after back
vowels, such that standard Dutch now has 'oud' for
old, Scots has 'faw' for fall, Westerlauwers Frisian
'l' is also often silent in this position and English
varieties all have 'walk', 'talk' etc. without
pronunciation of the 'l'. I think l-vocalisations are
also common in Southern US English, and also
Newfoundland, but not in between.

That South East England English and accents in the
West of the Netherlands are beginning to have this
l-vocalisation after all vowels is perhaps more
interesting. However, if there is an influence between
the two which way is it going? My grandmother used
l-vocalisations and she was 94 when she died last
year. There are also still many speakers who fluctuate
between 'l' and 'w'. Do you know how old this feature
is in the Netherlands? (I've just started a PhD
looking into vocalisations in Germanic languages, so
any help would be invaluable at this early stage!)

Gary

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

In various types of Missingsch (i.e., German dialects on Low Saxon
substrates) and in some other Northern German dialects (and the
borderline between the two types is not really distinct), /l/ is
patalatized to surface as /j/ or as coda /i/, after rounded vowels also
as the rounded counterparts [H] or [y], between a non-low front vowel
and a following velar; e.g., Milch [mI.jC] ~ [mI.iC] (milk), melken
['mE.jkN=] ~ ['mE.ikN=] (to milk), V?lker ['f9.jk3`] ~ ['f9.ik3`] ~
['f9.Hk3`] ~ ['f9.yk3`] (nations).

This rule applies in many Low Saxon (Low German) dialects as well; e.g.,
Melk [mE.jk] ~ [mE.ik] (milk).  In dialects in which the "thick" (velar)
allophone of /l/ is retained (see my previous posting) after any type of
vowel, especially in the farwestern ranges, the "disharmony" between
velar /l/ and palatovelar /k/, /g/ or /x/ (> [C]) is overcome by means
of an epenthetic (inserted, separating) vowel, much like it is done in
many Dutch dialects; e.g., _Melk_ [mE.L`@k] (milk, sounding like
"mellek").

As far as I know, l-vocalization tends to apply more extensively in many
South German dialects (of Bavaria and Austria), also after other types
of vowels; e.g., Volk [fOik] ~ [fOyk] ~ [fOYk].

Of course, l-vocalization is mandatory in most English dialects between
a rounded vowel and another coda consonant; e.g., Holmes [hoUmz], folk
[foUk], Polka ['poUk@]; sporadically also l-vocalization (perceived as
deletion) after other types of vowels; e.g., walk [wQ:k] ~ [wo:k], talk
[tQ:k] ~ [to:k], almond ['?Q:m at nd], salmon ['s{m at n].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: For phonetic notation used here, please see
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 13 20:09:32 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:09:32 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.06.13 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.130932.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: ???

I just received some information that might be interesting
to other subscribers as well. See below.

Regards,


Marco

================

Zevende Dialectendag op za 22 maart 2003 te Middelburg; oproep tot
deelname aan een dialectenquete over zinnetjes en rijmpjes die een
dialect
karakteriseren

===============================================
Zevende Dialectendag: "Aan uw taal heb ik u herkend!" (Matth. 26:73)
================================================

Op 22 maart 2003 organiseert de Stichting Nederlandse Dialecten (SND)
voor de 7de keer haar tweejaarlijkse Dialectendag. Dialectliefhebbers
uit Vlaanderen en Nederland zullen in het Zeeuwse Middelburg onthaald
worden op een gevarieerd programma met toegankelijke en informatieve
lezingen, werkwinkels, een cafe-chantant en een boekenmarkt. Deze keer
staat 'beeldvorming rond dialecten' centraal. Dat is meteen ook het
thema van het dialectenboek dat naar aanleiding van deze dag
samengesteld wordt. Om er een rijk gestoffeerd werk van te maken, zoekt
de SND in het hele Nederlandse taalgebied vrijwillige medewerkers om
een enquete over populaire noties i.v.m. dialecten in te vullen.

Dialectsprekers zijn zich van bepaalde dialectkenmerken veel meer
bewust dan van andere. Opvallende kenmerken genieten in de eigen streek
en soms zelfs ver daarbuiten een ruime bekendheid. Wat als opvallend of
afwijkend ervaren wordt, vindt bovendien vaak zijn weg in
dialectrijmpjes en (spot)zinnetjes, of in spotnamen voor de inwoners
van een bepaalde plaats.

Enkele voorbeelden: over het dialect van Sittard zegt men "er zit met
veir potte beir en e koffiekuikske in e huikske", iemand uit Assendelft
wordt ongetwijfeld wel eens geplaagd met "as je weer op me hekkie komme
zel ik je mit me ooiaak in je atje ikke" en voor iemand uit Dokkum zal
"faider, de balaiker stait op 'e taifel" niet onbekend zijn. Om
bepaalde West-Vlaamse dialecten te typeren, gebruikt men graag het
zinnetje "'t is e ruut uut tuus en 't rint trin". Op de grens tussen
Oost-Vlaanderen en Brabant is "draa raa aaren mi ne praa derbaa" in
allerlei varianten te horen. En zo bestaan er ongetwijfeld nog een hele
reeks andere zinnetjes. De Stichting Nederlandse Dialecten wil graag
dergelijke zinnetjes verzamelen uit het hele Nederlandse taalgebied.

Kent u deze of andere stereotiepe uitspraken, zinnetjes, rijmpjes of
spotnamen over bepaalde dialecten in uw omgeving? Gelieve die dan
hieronder (of op een apart blad) te noteren.

Belangrijk is wel dat we niet zomaar typische woorden of uitdrukkingen
uit een bepaald dialect zoeken, maar werkelijk uitingen waarmee mensen
het dialect van anderen typeren of (vriendelijk) bespotten.

De gegevens kunt u terugsturen naar de onderstaande adressen. Gelieve
bij elk voorbeeld te vermelden op welk dialect, welke plaats of welk
gebied het van toepassing is. U zou ons ook een grote dienst bewijzen
door de uitspraak zo nauwkeurig mogelijk weer te geven.

Voor Belgie: Veronique De Tier - Universiteit Gent, Vakgroep
Nederlandse Taalkunde, Blandijnberg 2, 9000 Gent - e-mail : snd at mail.be

Voor Nederland: Ton van de Wijngaard =AD KUN, Afdeling ATD, Postbus
9103, 6500 HD Nijmegen - e-mail: snd at mail.be
Op de website van het Vlaams Centrum voor Volkscultuur
(http://www.vcv.be/) kunt u een pdf-file van deze enquete downloaden.

Graag krijgen we bovendien ook de volgende gegevens.
- uw naam en adres (optioneel: de gegevens worden anoniem verwerkt)
- huidige woonplaats
- plaats waar u uw jeugd doorbracht
- geboortejaar
- man/vrouw
- wenst wel/niet geinformeerd te worden over de dialectendag in
  Middelburg.

Indien u informatie wenst over de zevende Dialectendag in Middelburg op
zaterdag 22 maart 2003 of de (eerder verschenen) dialectenboeken uit
deze reeks, gelieve dan hieronder uw naam en adres (en eventueel
e-mailadres) te noteren.

De Stichting Nederlandse Dialecten dankt u van harte voor de
medewerking!

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 00:04:05 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2002 17:04:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.13 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <THU.13.JUN.2002.170405.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 Archive: <http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html>
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

[English below]

Leeglanners,

Nu w??rd' ik daar j?st an dinken, wo Fiete Neumann nulest schreev', ik
meen dat mit "Leegland" sachs so 'n l?tt beten spaassig, un ik seeg',
tjer, eerder halv spaassig un halv eernst, dat "leeg" in 'n paar
neddersassische (nedderd??tsche) Dialekten ook vundagigendaags noch
"deep un platt" bed?den deit, nich bloots "slecht."  Ik harr ook seggt,
dat na mien Verscheel dat Woord "Siedland" nich so 'n groot, wied Rebeed
bed?den deit as dat, wat wi hier "Lowlands" n?men doot.

Un nu is mi dat wedder in d'n olen Bregenkassen tr?ggkamen: Ik w??rd'
"Siedland" up (Hoog-)D??tsch as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ ?versetten,
"Leegland" tomehrst as _Tiefebene_ (as in "Nordeurop?ische Tiefebene").

Wat meent Ji?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Lowlanders,

I was just now reminded of Fiete Neumann recently saying he was assuming
I was using the name _Leegland_ in Low Saxon (Low German) in a jocular
manner (since _leeg_ means 'bad', 'inferior'), and I responded that I
was only half joking, that _leeg_ still means 'low and flat' in several
modern dialects, not only 'inferior'.  I also said that in my opinion
the word _Siedland_ does not denote as vast an area as the one to which
we refer as "Lowlands" here.

And now it has just clicked in the old brain: while Low Saxon _Siedland_
is best translated as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ in (High) German ('(marshy)
stretch of low-lying land'), _Leegland_ is often best translated as
_Tiefebene_ ('lowlands', 'plain(s)', as in _Nordeurop?ische Tiefebene_
'North European Lowland/Plains').

What do others think?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 14:56:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:56:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (01) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.075641.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 13.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.13 (04) [E/LS]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
>
> [English below]
>
> Leeglanners,
>
> Nu w??rd' ik daar j?st an dinken, wo Fiete Neumann
> nulest schreev', ik
> meen dat mit "Leegland" sachs so 'n l?tt beten
> spaassig, un ik seeg',
> tjer, eerder halv spaassig un halv eernst, dat
> "leeg" in 'n paar
> neddersassische (nedderd??tsche) Dialekten ook
> vundagigendaags noch
> "deep un platt" bed?den deit, nich bloots "slecht."
> Ik harr ook seggt,
> dat na mien Verscheel dat Woord "Siedland" nich so
> 'n groot, wied Rebeed
> bed?den deit as dat, wat wi hier "Lowlands" n?men
> doot.
>
> Un nu is mi dat wedder in d'n olen Bregenkassen
> tr?ggkamen: Ik w??rd'
> "Siedland" up (Hoog-)D??tsch as _(Marsch-)Niederung_
> ?versetten,
> "Leegland" tomehrst as _Tiefebene_ (as in
> "Nordeurop?ische Tiefebene").
>
> Wat meent Ji?
>
> Kumpelmenten,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ***
>
> Lowlanders,
>
> I was just now reminded of Fiete Neumann recently
> saying he was assuming
> I was using the name _Leegland_ in Low Saxon (Low
> German) in a jocular
> manner (since _leeg_ means 'bad', 'inferior'), and I
> responded that I
> was only half joking, that _leeg_ still means 'low
> and flat' in several
> modern dialects, not only 'inferior'.  I also said
> that in my opinion
> the word _Siedland_ does not denote as vast an area
> as the one to which
> we refer as "Lowlands" here.
>
> And now it has just clicked in the old brain: while
> Low Saxon _Siedland_
> is best translated as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ in (High)
> German ('(marshy)
> stretch of low-lying land'), _Leegland_ is often
> best translated as
> _Tiefebene_ ('lowlands', 'plain(s)', as in
> _Nordeurop?ische Tiefebene_
> 'North European Lowland/Plains').
>
> What do others think?
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Ik mutt woerkli seggen dat ik ni seker boen of wi dat
word "leeg" in Wistedh no bruk hebbt, wul hebb wi
"sied" bruk ("de stool is mi to sied"). Dat magh wul
ween dat dat een ool word is wat vlich min
Groessoellern no bruk hebb, awer voendaaghs heff ik
dat nuems meer hoert, wul begreep ik wat dat beduet.
Foeher haett man ok "duven" bruk so as in "Duvenstedt"
doch dat word ward ok all lang ni meer bruk.

Groeten

Helge

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 16:30:44 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 09:30:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (02) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.093044.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 14.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

> From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.13 (04) [E/LS]

> Ik mutt woerkli seggen dat ik ni seker boen of wi dat
> word "leeg" in Wistedh no bruk hebbt, wul hebb wi
> "sied" bruk ("de stool is mi to sied"). Dat magh wul
> ween dat dat een ool word is wat vlich min
> Groessoellern no bruk hebb, awer voendaaghs heff ik
> dat nuems meer hoert, wul begreep ik wat dat beduet.
> Foeher haett man ok "duven" bruk so as in "Duvenstedt"
> doch dat word ward ok all lang ni meer bruk.

[English below]

D?t "duven" (bed??dt dat "leeg", "neddern", "sied"?) find sik denn wull
ook in de noordd??tschen Plaatsnaams "Duvendiek", "Duvensee",
"Duvennest" un "Duveneck."  Denn gl??v' ik ook, dat 't sik in de
nedderlandschen Plaatsnaams (Nedderlannen un Belgien) "Duiven",
"Duiveland", "Duivestraat", "Duivenhoek" un "Duivendans" findt.
(Neddersassisch <uu> = nedderlandsch <ui>)  Stimmt dat?

I looks as if this _duven_ (does also it mean 'low'?) is also contained
in the North German place names "Duvendiek", "Duvensee", "Duvennest" and
"Duveneck."  To go one step farther, I assume that it is also contained
in the Dutch place names (of the Netherlands and Belgium) "Duiven",
"Duiveland", "Duivestraat", "Duivenhoek" and "Duivendans".  (Low Saxon
<uu>/<oe> = Dutch <ui>)  Is this correct?

Gr?tens/Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 17:33:21 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 10:33:21 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.103321.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 14.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.12 (04) [E]

Dear Ron,

Thank you for the very enlightening description of celtic words used to
describe the english. From my own studeis of the Welsh language, I have
just
realised that 'saesneg' is the welsh adjective meaning 'english,' which
is
quite similar to the other celtic variations, especially the Breton word
,"saozneg," used to describe the English language.

Regards,
David Elsworth.


>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.10 (03) [E]
>
>Dear Ron, Lowlanders
>
>The Scots term for an English person is,"sassensach." I personally feel
>that this must be connected to the Low Saxon word to describe a saxon.
>
>Regards
>David Elsworth.
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Names
>
>David,
>
>Apparently you are right (above).  Scottish Gaelig _Sasunn_ is 'England'
>(originally "Saxon") and _Sasannach_ is 'English' (either adjective or
>nominal 'English person', originally "Saxon").  Note also names like
>Irish _Sacs-Bh?arla_ for 'English language' ("Saxon gobbledigook"),
>_Saxain_ for 'England' and _Saxanach_ for 'English (person)'.  Manx has
>_Sostyn_ for 'England' and _Sostnagh_ for 'English (person)'  Similarly
>Breton has _Bro-Saoz_ 'England' and _saozneg_ 'English (language)'
>(though lately French-based _Bro an Anglizien_ and _anglich_
>respectively have been encroaching).  Of course, this required these
>languages to create new names for "real" 'Saxon' etc., e.g., Irish
>_Saxa_
>
>On the other hand, note that Finnish has _Saksa_ (originally "Saxony")
>for 'Germany' (and _saksalainen_ for 'German', _saksan kieli_ for
>'German language', etc.), similarly Estonian _Saksa_ (_sakslane_ and
>_saksa keel_), obviously because medieval Saxony (today's Northern
>Germany, from which Saxon-speaking Hanseatic traders reached Baltic
>seaports) came to represent the earlier vague entity "Germany."  Again,
>later this required creating new names for "real" 'Saxony', etc., e.g.,
>Finnish _Saksi_ 'Saxony', _saksilainen_ 'Saxon', _saksin kieli_ 'Saxon
>language', similarly Estonian _Saksi_, _saks_, _saksi keel_
>respectively.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

You are welcome, David.

Isn't it interesting and telling that Welsh has the adjective _saesneg_
("Saxon") for 'English' but refers to England by the name _Lloegr_,
assumedly a name for the region east of today's Wales that goes back to
before the Saxon take-over?  So in Welsh the neighboring region seems to
have retained its old name, and _saesneg_ ("Saxon") is used to refer to
the descendants of the invaders that now live there.

Lowlanders,

On a different note, can any of you tell me what the Dutch equivalent of
the Zeelandic (Ze?uws) place name "Kwa?damme" is?

Thanks and regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 19:32:22 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 12:32:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.123222.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 14.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (03) [E]

Ron asked:

> Lowlanders,
>
> On a different note, can any of you tell me what the Dutch equivalent of
> the Zeelandic (Ze?uws) place name "Kwa?damme" is?

Kwa?damme is Kwadendamme, a small village some 10 km's south of Goes.

Marco

----------

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (02) [E/LS]

But "duiven" is the Dutch word for pigeons or doves - I should say that
at
least some of these place names must refer to birds, then! The same
could be true for the Lower Saxon names, especially "Duvennest" (which I
would take to mean "dove's nest"). Correct me if I'm wrong...

Groetjes,
Gabriele [Kahn]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Thanks for the info "Kwa?damme" = "Kwadendamme", Marco.  I needed it for
a part of a "project" which I will announce shortly.

Hi, Gabriele!  So good to have you back in the fold!  What you said
about _Duven..._ / _Duiven..._ makes a lot of sense to me.  I had also
always thought that they refered to doves or pigeons, but I went with
what Helge Tietz had said earlier today:

> Ik mutt woerkli seggen dat ik ni seker boen of wi dat
> word "leeg" in Wistedh no bruk hebbt, wul hebb wi
> "sied" bruk ("de stool is mi to sied"). Dat magh wul
> ween dat dat een ool word is wat vlich min
> Groessoellern no bruk hebb, awer voendaaghs heff ik
> dat nuems meer hoert, wul begreep ik wat dat beduet.
> Foeher haett man ok "duven" bruk so as in "Duvenstedt"
> doch dat word ward ok all lang ni meer bruk.

He seemed to be implying that _duven_ (as in Duvenstedt) used to mean
the same as _leeg_ and _sied_ 'low'.  It was news to me, and currently I
do not have any dictionaries here to verify it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 14 23:22:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 16:22:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <FRI.14.JUN.2002.162230.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: "Names" 2002. 06. 13 (04)

'n Oobend, Ron, Leeglanners,

Ron wrote:

>Leeglanners,
>
>Nu w??rd' ik daar j?st an dinken, wo Fiete Neumann nulest schreev', ik
>meen dat mit "Leegland" sachs so 'n l?tt beten spaassig, un ik seeg',
>tjer, eerder halv spaassig un halv eernst, dat "leeg" in 'n paar
>neddersassische (nedderd??tsche) Dialekten ook vundagigendaags noch
>"deep un platt" bed?den deit, nich bloots "slecht."  Ik harr ook seggt,
>dat na mien Verscheel dat Woord "Siedland" nich so 'n groot, wied Rebeed
>bed?den deit as dat, wat wi hier "Lowlands" n?men doot.
>
>Un nu is mi dat wedder in d'n olen Bregenkassen tr?ggkamen: Ik w??rd'
>"Siedland" up (Hoog-)D??tsch as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ ?versetten,
>"Leegland" tomehrst as _Tiefebene_ (as in "Nordeurop?ische Tiefebene").
>
>Wat meent Ji?

Jo, Ron, mi d?cht ook, dat is't Nodinken weirt, un' Dien Ansatz d?cht mi
mol
weller heel best tau ween.
Offschoonst- dat "liggen" un dat "l??gen" s?n' recht dicht tohaup, j?st
sou
as in't Ingelte un' Hauchd?tsche "liegen" un "l?gen". De Dialekten hefft
dat
woll ?nnerscheidlich haulen, overs: kein Platt snacken or prooten deiht,
schall't woll j?mmers verstohn, wat meint is. Dat allein is woll 'n
Teiken
f??r sick.

In uns Lannen  giff't  'n "Sietland", noch'n beeten sieder as de Marsch
?mtau. Schullst Du tau jemme obers "Leeglanners" seggen, schulln's woll
d?chtig obstanaatsch waarn. Denn ward dat "leege Hunnen" un' schecht Di!

Jo! Is' sau!

Greutens

Fiete.

Be"lower" English:

Hi, Ron, Lowlanders,

Ron wrote:

>Lowlanders

<I was just now reminded of Fiete Neumann recently saying he was
assuming
>I was using the name _Leegland_ in Low Saxon (Low German) in a jocular
>manner (since _leeg_ means 'bad', 'inferior'), and I responded that I
>was only half joking, that _leeg_ still means 'low and flat' in several
>modern dialects, not only 'inferior'.  I also said that in my opinion
>the word _Siedland_ does not denote as vast an area as the one to which
>we refer as "Lowlands" here.

>And now it has just clicked in the old brain: while Low Saxon _Siedland_
>is best translated as _(Marsch-)Niederung_ in (High) German
('(marshy)stretch of low-lying land'), _Leegland_ is often >best
translated
as
>_Tiefebene_ ('lowlands', 'plain(s)', as in _Nordeurop?ische Tiefebene_
>'North European Lowland/Plains').

>What do others think?

Yes, Ron, it seems worth to be thought about, and I guess, You are on
the
right trail again.-
Though- the words (Low S.) "liggen " (liggen) (engl: to lie [on a bed]
and
"l??gen" (sorry!) (engl.: to tell a lie) are very tight to each other
(look
in English and Upper German). The diverse regional Low Saxon dialects
developed differently, but: everyone able to talk Low Saxon will be able
too
to understand both of the words, in both meanings. That  seems to speak
for itself.

In our special region we have an area called "Sietland". It is even
lower
(beneath sea-level) than the sorrounding marshlands. But- do never call
them
"Leeglanners"- they will become very upset , and You will at once find
Yourself in a nice fight.

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Fiete:

> Schullst Du tau jemme obers "Leeglanners" seggen, schulln's woll
> d?chtig obstanaatsch waarn. Denn ward dat "leege Hunnen" un' schecht Di!

Tjer, Fiete, dat 's man good, dat Du mi dat k?nnig maakt hest, dat ik mi
bi d? Minschen nich sehn laten or tominnst mank j?m dat Muul nich apen
rieten do.

Kumpelmenten in 't Huus!

Reinhard*/Ron
(* which is unrelated to the river Rhine ("Rhein"), Steve, tempting
though the spelling may be.)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 15 17:13:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 10:13:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.101323.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Nmes" 2002. 06. 14 (04)

Hi, Marco, Gabriele, Ron,

in order of Ron:

evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (03) [E]

Ron asked:

> Lowlanders,
>
> On a different note, can any of you tell me what the Dutch equivalent of
> the Zeelandic (Ze?uws) place name "Kwa?damme" is?

Kwa?damme is Kwadendamme, a small village some 10 km's south of Goes.

Marco

Marco,

could it be a (Upper german) "Querdamm", what we call in Low Saxon a
"Kajedeich" ( a dyke lying tansversally to the coastal line)? Because-
in
Low german we prefer top say "dwars" for "transverse", but still the
word
"dweer" is in use.
Regards
Fiete

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (02) [E/LS]

>But "duiven" is the Dutch word for pigeons or doves - I should say that
>at
>least some of these place names must refer to birds, then! The same
>could be true for the Lower Saxon names, especially "Duvennest" (which I
>would take to mean "dove's nest"). Correct me if I'm wrong...
>
>Groetjes,
>Gabriele [Kahn]

Hi, Gabrielle,
in Northern Germany, perhaps identic with the region of Low Saxon
languages,
I frequently found the word "doov" (Upper German: "taub") (English:
"deaf")
for those parts of a river or even lake which formerly were as well
river as
the nowadays course. But in changing times they became to be just
shallowes
with perhaps water coming in from the one, but never going out to the
other
side. (See below Ron and Helge Tietz)

Special Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]

>GRIN< - it's so good to come back to "Lowlands" after all these years, only
to find that Our Ron is still fighting the good fight to have his name
spelled correctly! :-)

Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
"leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Gabriele:

> >GRIN< - it's so good to come back to "Lowlands" after all these years, > only
> to find that Our Ron is still fighting the good fight to have his name
> spelled correctly! :-)

That's all right, Gabriele.  I'm used to it.  People want to make it
look as German as possible.  Someone I know writes it "Rheinhardt" and
won't stop it, saying it feels more satisfying.  Who am I to deny him
this little pleasure?

> Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
> "leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?

As far as I know, _leeg_ ([lE.IC], which should really be spelled _leyg_
or _leig_) is a cognate of Dutch _laag_, English _low_, etc.  It's
predominant meaning now is 'bad' or 'inferior', can be translated from
German _schlecht_ in most contexts, including "feeling bad," "looking
bad," etc.  In most contexts I would translate 'ugly' (Dutch _lelijk_)
as Low Saxon (Low German) _wanschapen_ ['va.nSQ:pm=].

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 03:24:18 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:24:18 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.202418.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (01) [E]

In reply to Fiete's mail concerning former stretches of river: I
actually
used to "own" one, it was part of my farm in Oregon in what I now think
of
as a previous life. The English term for that is "oxbow lake", or so I
have
learned. Would anyone know why they call it that?

Greetings,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Sachsen780 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]

Hello Reinhard/Ron,

the heat of the Arizona desert causes me these errors in correct
spelling.  I will, for one, allow you to spell your given name
the way you want, every time.  Thanks for the good natured ribbing!

S  T  E  V  E

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Dear Steve,

I am happy to know you are not taking my friendly little "ribbing" the
wrong way.  Be aware that you belong to the majority outside
German-speaking areas who misspell my name.  I take offense at none of
it, just retort with good-natured teasing, even in the case of the
person who *insists* on misspelling my name.  What's in a name anyway?
By the way, I believe that Reinhard (as in Reynard, the sly fox in the
medieval Dutch and Low Saxon story) is Saxon, somewhat related to
English Reginald ... ragin + hart = something like "solid
counsel(lor)/advisor" (not "pure heart" as assumed by most German
speakers).

Steve, your interest and enthusiasm are much appreciated.  Keep cool
down there in the lovely Arizona desert!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 03:27:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:27:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.15 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.202723.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.06.13 (02) [E]

Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>:

>That South East England English and accents in the
>West of the Netherlands are beginning to have this
>l-vocalisation after all vowels is perhaps more
>interesting. However, if there is an influence between
>the two which way is it going? My grandmother used
>l-vocalisations and she was 94 when she died last
>year. There are also still many speakers who fluctuate
>between 'l' and 'w'. Do you know how old this feature
>is in the Netherlands?

At least 100 years, as all my grandparents (born around 1895)
already did it. And I expect it's even much older than that, but I
have no evidence of that.

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:

>This rule applies in many Low Saxon (Low German) dialects as well;
e.g.,
>Melk [mE.jk] ~ [mE.ik] (milk).  In dialects in which the "thick"
(velar)
>allophone of /l/ is retained (see my previous posting) after any
type of
>vowel, especially in the farwestern ranges, the "disharmony" between
>velar /l/ and palatovelar /k/, /g/ or /x/ (> [C]) is overcome by means
>of an epenthetic (inserted, separating) vowel, much like it is done in
>many Dutch dialects; e.g., _Melk_ [mE.L`@k] (milk, sounding like
>"mellek").

True, but then the /l/ usually becomes "thin" again, being between
vowels instead of before a consonant or pause.
I don't know if the epenthesis is really caused or influenced by
velarisation, because it also happens with /r/: "werk" often sounds
as "werrek" [vEr at k], varken (less often) as "varreke". This also
changes the r-sound, it "un-shwa-ises" it, but no velarisation is
involved.

--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 12 June 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 03:32:49 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 20:32:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.15 (04) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <SAT.15.JUN.2002.203249.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Etymologies"

Hi, Ron, Leeglanners, Lowlanders,

Ron wrote:
>As far as I know, _leeg_ ([lE.IC], which should really be spelled _leyg_
>or _leig_) is a cognate of Dutch _laag_, English _low_, etc.  It's
>predominant meaning now is 'bad' or 'inferior', can be translated from
>German _schlecht_ in most contexts, including "feeling bad," "looking
>bad," etc.  In most contexts I would translate 'ugly' (Dutch _lelijk_)
>as Low Saxon (Low German) _wanschapen_ ['va.nSQ:pm=].
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Of course: what about engl. "lake", upper German "Lache", in our dialekt
"look",  Scots "loch"?

But: "wanschapen" seems to come from the West, from Holland or
East-Friesland, because it is completely unknown in our region, as older
people told me this evening.

I'll never trust in DUDEN No. 7!

Thanks and regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Fiete, mien Fr?nd,

Wat seggt de (olen) L??d' bi Ju denn f?r d??tsch _h?sslich_ (ingelsch
_ugly_)?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 18:14:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:14:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.16 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.111423.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.15 (04) [E/LS]

> Ron wrote:
>> As far as I know, _leeg_ ([lE.IC], which should really be spelled _leyg_
>> or _leig_) is a cognate of Dutch _laag_, English _low_, etc.  It's
>> predominant meaning now is 'bad' or 'inferior', can be translated from
>> German _schlecht_ in most contexts, including "feeling bad," "looking
>> bad," etc.  In most contexts I would translate 'ugly' (Dutch _lelijk_)
>> as Low Saxon (Low German) _wanschapen_ ['va.nSQ:pm=].
>>
>> Regards,
>> Reinhard/Ron
>
> Of course: what about engl. "lake", upper German "Lache", in our dialekt
> "look",  Scots "loch"?

In Flanders I know a castle that is called 'de lakebossen'(E The woods
by
the lake)
Luc Vanbrabant

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 18:17:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:17:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (02) [D/E/French]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.111714.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.02 (03) [D/E]

> Dear Lowlanders,
>
> Could any of you help me translate the following lines from Vanden Vos
> Reynaerde in English or French?

Dear Patricia,
I have made an attempt to tanslate these fragments into French (Excuse
me
for the grammatical faults in advance!)
> Alse ghi wilt, so willic gaen. (12)
Si vous voulez,alors je m'en aille
>
> Lieve neve, ic wille gaen
Cher cousin, je veux aller (me confessioner)
>
> Daer af willic mi in biechten dwaen.
De cela je veux me purifier par la confession
>
> Eer hi doe conste in corten woerden
> Ghespreken: 'Ic wille mi begheven,
Avant de se prononcer en courtes paroles:
Je veux me diriger (entrer dans le couvent)
> Daer dedic Ysingrijn bi mi
> Up dat huus clemmen boven.
> Ic seide, ic wilde hem gheloven,
> Wildi crupen in die valdore,
> Dat hire soude vinden vore
> Van vetten hoenren sijn ghevouch.
> Ter valdore ghinc hi ende louch,
> Ende croep daer in met vare,
> Ende began taste n harenthare.
Labas  je faisais que  Ysengrijn grimpe en haut sur la maison
Je disais -je voulais le promettre- que  qauand il
voulait se glisser dans cette trappe
qu'il trouverait des poules grasses,
plus qu'il n'en pouvait avoir.
Il allait vers la trappe et riait
et se glissait dedans avec prudence
et commen?ait ? t?ter ici et l?.
> Nu willic prouven, dat ic mach
> Te hove bringhen een baraet,
> Dat ic voer de dagheraet
> In groter zorghen vant te nacht.
Maintenant je veux essayer si je peux
mettre en d?lib?r?
ce que -avant l'aube-j'ai trouv?
pendant la nuit, torturant mon esprit
>
> Waendi dat ic wille nemen
> Eene loghene up mine langhe vaert?
Penses-tu que je veux emporter un mensonge
sur mon long voyage?
>
> Ic peinsde, worde hi ons heere,
> Dat wil alle waren verloren.
Je pensais, s'il devient notre seigneur
Nous allons tous ?tre perdus.
>
> Waendi, dat ic u die Leye
> Wille wijsen in die flume Jordane?
Penseriez-vous que je voulais vous d?signer "De Leie"(La Lys)
pour la fleuve "De Jordaan"?
>
> Maerghin, als die zonne up gaet,
> Willic te Roeme om aflaet;
> Van Roeme willic over zee.
Demain, quand le soleil se l?ve
je veux aller ? Rome pour une indulgence
De Rome, je veux aller par la mer.
>
> Hi wille hem betren, ic segghe u hoe:
> Reynaert wille maerghen vroe
> Palster ende scerpe ontfaen
> Ende wille te Roeme gaen,
> Ende van Rome, danen wille hi over zee,
Il veut s'am?liorer, je vous dis comment
Reynaert, demain ? l'aube, veut
recevoir le bourdon et la bourse
et veut aller ? Rome
et de Rome, il veut aller par la mer
> Of God wilt, ghi sult mi gheleeden
> Ende mijn vrient Belin de ram
Si Dieu le veut, vous allez me conduire moi
et mon ami Belin, le b?lier.

Groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene (Belgi?)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 16 18:49:58 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 11:49:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.16 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.114958.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (02) [E]

At 08:24 PM 06/15/02 -0700, Ron wrote:
>What's in a name anyway?
>By the way, I believe that Reinhard (as in Reynard, the sly fox in the
>medieval Dutch and Low Saxon story) is Saxon, somewhat related to
>English Reginald ... ragin + hart = something like "solid
>counsel(lor)/advisor" (not "pure heart" as assumed by most German
>speakers).

Funny, I would have imagined <regin + ald>, with the <ald> the same as
in
<her-ald>, the "old man of the army".  Another source says that it is
"powerful ruler".  My own name, Edwin, is a mystery to me as well.  This
same source says that it means "valuable friend", but other
possibilities
are "friend of wealth", "wealth winner", "friend of the oath", and more.

Ed Alexander
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.15 (01) [E]

Fiete wrote:

> could it be a (Upper german) "Querdamm", what we call in Low Saxon a
> "Kajedeich" ( a dyke lying tansversally to the coastal line)? Because-
> in
> Low german we prefer top say "dwars" for "transverse", but still the
> word
> "dweer" is in use.

The name of this village is quite young; the first time it is
metioned is in 1581. It is a quite litteral name: village was
founded in a polder that was very hard to keep dry because
of a dam across a local water, the Zwake, constantly 'eroded'.
So 'Kwadendamme' refers to a bad, ugly (Dutch _kwaad_)
dam.
Originally there were no 'Querdammen' in Zeeland, so I
don't think that this German word has anything to do with
'Kaw?damme'. The local equivalent of of a 'Querdamm' is
the _pael'o?d_ (litt. 'polehead').
These are rows of wooden poles, strengthened at the bottom
with blocks of basalt to protect the beaches and dunes from
eroding. I think Dutch has _paalhoofd_, but it isn't in the
small Dutch dictionary I have at hand now.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (03) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Names
> Lowlanders,
>
> On a different note, can any of you tell me what the Dutch equivalent of
> the Zeelandic (Ze?uws) place name "Kwa?damme" is?
dear Ron,
I assume that "kwa?damme" comes from "kwade dam"
'Kwaad' in general means 'angry',
but there is also another meaning for the word that is not so well
known.
'Kwaad' means also 'klein'
Kwaadieper= little Ieper
Kwaadmechelen= little Mechelen
Kwade straat= Little street, so...
Kwa?dam= little dam

Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]

> Ron wrote:

>> Lowlanders

> <I was just now reminded of Fiete Neumann recently saying he was
> assuming
>> I was using the name _Leegland_ in Low Saxon (Low German) in a jocular
>> manner (since _leeg_ means 'bad', 'inferior'), and I responded that I
>> was only half joking, that _leeg_ still means 'low and flat' in several
>> modern dialects, not only 'inferior'.  I also said that in my opinion
>> the word _Siedland_ does not denote as vast an area as the one to which
>> we refer as "Lowlands" here.
>
>> And now it has just clicked in the old brain: while Low Saxon _Siedland_

Kan Siedland niet komen van zuidland (E Southland) op kaarten altijd
onderaan te zien (laagst)?
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Low Saxon (Low German) also has _kwade_ ~ _quade_ ~ _kwaad(')_ ~
_quaad(')_ 'fierce', 'angry', 'bad', etc.  However, this appears to be
yet another word that is either confined to or solely survives in the
farwestern dialects.  (It was used more extensively in Middle Low
Saxon.)

As far as I know, German _quer_ 'crosswise', 'across', 'diagonal(ly)',
has the Low Saxon cognate _dwars_ [dva:s], where the _-s_ is an
adverbial suffix, and in some dialects also _dweer_ [dve:3`].  German
/kv-/ _qu-_ tends to come from /tv-/ _tw-_ (older _twerch_ for _quer_)
which in some cases developed into /tsv-/ _zw-_ as in _Zwerchfell_
("cross(wise) membrane") 'diaphragm'.  (Note also West Slavic loans such
as *_tvar(e)k_ > _Twark_ > _Quark_ denoting a type of creamcheese.)  Cf.
German _zwingen_ = LS _dwingen_ [dvI.N:] 'to force', G _Zwerg_ = LS
_Dwarg_ [dva:x] 'dwarf', G _Quatsch_ 'nonsense' ~ LS _dwatsch_ [dvatS] ~
[dvatsk] 'silly'.

Luc asked:

> Kan Siedland niet komen van zuidland (E Southland) op kaarten altijd
> onderaan te zien (laagst)?

I don't think so.  Dutch _zuid_ is _s??d_ [zy:t] in LS.  As far as I
know, LS _ie_ (/ii/) and Dutch _ui_ (< old /uu/) never correspond, but
LS _ie_ and D _ij_ (< old /ii/) do.

LS _sied_ [zi:t] (< *siegd_?, cf. German _seicht_) means 'shallow' and
'low-lying', 'sunken', and I am rather inclined to assume it is related
to Modern Dutch _zijgen_ 'to strain', 'to filter', literary (and older?)
'to sink' (< *_ziig_?).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 03:08:58 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:08:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (04) [D/E/French]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.200858.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Patricia Beving <beving.patricia at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (02) [D/E/French]

Dear Luc,

Merci BEAUCOUP de votre aide. Dank je voor je help. (My Dutch is
probably
much worse than your French, er zijn heel weinig fouten in je vertaling/
il
y a tr?s peu d'erreurs dans cette traduction). I wondered if in some
occurrences "willen" could not be translated by the future instead of
"vouloir"? I also wondered if there was still any current dialect closer
to
Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch? I didn't know about the Dutch origin
of
Renart (Reynaert) either. I thought it was French. Never mind, anyway,
That
which we call a fox, by any other name...

Cordialement/groetjes

Patricia Henelle-Beving (Versailles, France)

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Patricia,

I am not sure anybody is really knows how far back the story of the
naughty fox goes.  There is also a Middle Low Saxon (Low German)
version, from the time at which the international Low-Saxon-speaking
Hanseatic Trading League was at the pinnacle of its power.  The oldest
surviving edition I am aware of is _Reynke de vos_, printed in L?beck
(*the* Hanseatic center) in 1498.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 03:18:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 2002 20:18:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.16 (05) [E/F]
Message-ID: <SUN.16.JUN.2002.201830.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: Etymology

Ron wrote:
> >As far as I know, _leeg_ ([lE.IC], which should really be spelled _leyg_
> >or _leig_) is a cognate of Dutch _laag_, English _low_, etc.  It's
> >predominant meaning now is 'bad' or 'inferior', can be translated from
> >German _schlecht_ in most contexts, including "feeling bad," "looking
> >bad," etc.  In most contexts I would translate 'ugly' (Dutch _lelijk_)
> >as Low Saxon (Low German) _wanschapen_ ['va.nSQ:pm=].
> >
> >Regards,
> >Reinhard/Ron

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Names" 2002.06.14 (05) [E/LS]

Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
"leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

--------------------

Yn reaksje hjirop: Der is wer gjin _etymologyske_ rilllaasje tusken
_leeg_ en Nl _lelijk_. Dit le^ste is nammentlik o^flaat fan _leed +
lijk_
(ferlykje : kwalijk < kwaad + lijk), we^r't _leed_ stiet foar "min".
Ek Aldfrysk le^th + li^k, dat laat hat ta "lilk" yn it Westerlauwersk
Frysk,
mar dit betsjut "angry". "ugly" soe ik oersette as "u^nsjuch", bygelyks,
en
dit wurd hat paralellen yn Nedersaksyske dialekten (onzuug, of soks).

Yn ferba^n mei _kwaad_: Westerl. F. hat ek _kwea_, as haadwurd (nomen):
"evil" (it kwea) en as eigenskipswurd (adjektyf), ek yn 'e spesjale
betsjutting
"out"=bu^ten de linen by it keatsen..

Samar wer wat opmerkingen..
Groetnis allegearre!

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Dear Lowlanders,

Henno wrote above:

> Yn reaksje hjirop: Der is wer gjin _etymologyske_ rilllaasje tusken
> _leeg_ en Nl _lelijk_. Dit le^ste is nammentlik o^flaat fan _leed +
> lijk_ (ferlykje : kwalijk < kwaad + lijk), we^r't _leed_ stiet foar
> "min".

So that would be *_leedlig_ (leed+lig "suffer+like") in Low Saxon (Low
German) if it existed, which apparently it doesn't.  German has
_leidlich_, which, however, means something quite different from 'ugly':
'tolerable', '(barely) acceptable'.

As for Low Saxon (Low German) _Siedland_ or _Leegland_ for 'Lowland(s)',
as discussed under "Names," perhaps a look at our northernmost and most
conservative Germanic cousin (Modern) Icelandic will help.

s??ur [si:Dyr], s?? [si:D], s?tt [si:(h)t] (< *s??t) 'long', 'low
   (down)'

s?ga [si:Ga], s?g [si:G], seig [sei:G], sigum ['sI:GYm], siginn
   ['sIi:jIn] 'to fall', 'to sink', 'to drain'

sigtibrau? ['sIx.tIbr9y:D] ("sieved/strained bread") 'bread made from
   strained/sieved rye and wheat'

s?ki ['si:k(j)(h)I] 'streamlet', 'rill flowing through marshy ground'

Cf. Danish _sid_ 'low(-lying)', Low Saxon _sied_ 'low(-lying)',
   _Siedland_ 'low-lying marshland', Dutch _zijgen_ 'to strain',
   'to filter', lit./arch. 'to sink', Scots _side_ 'hanging down (low)',
   _sythe_ ~ _sye_ 'to strain', 'to filter', _syke_ ~ _sike_ 'small
   stream in a hollow', German _sickern_ 'to seep', 'to drain',
   _seicht_ 'shallow' (< 'swampy', 'wet', cf. Old English _s?hte_;
   Middle (High) German _s?ht(e)_ 'shallow part in water'),
   _seihen_ (< _s?han, Old English _s?on_, Old Norse _s?a_) 'flow
   out', ~ arch. _seigen_ (Middle German _s?gen_, Old English _s?gan_
   'to drip').

l?gur ['lau:(G)Yr], l?g [lau:(G)] 'low(-lying)'

l?g [lau:(G)] 'hollow', 'depression'

l?glendi ['lau:(G)lEndI] 'lowland(s)'

ne?an ['nE:Dan] '(from) below'

ne?ar ['nE:Dar] 'farther down'

undir ['YndIr] 'under', 'below'

undirlendi ['YndIrlEndI] 'lowland(s)', as in Su?urlandsundirlendi
   ['sY:DYrlans,YndIrlEndI] ("south-land's-under-lands/region") denoting
   the lowlands in the south of Iceland

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 15:23:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (R. F. Hahn)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:23:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (01) [E/Z]
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (04) [D/E/French]

Patricia Beving asked

> I also wondered if there was still any current dialect closer
> to
> Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?

The writer of Reynaert, an anonymous writer
who names himslef 'Willem die Madoc maecte'
('William who wrote Madoc'), wrote in the
dialect of Eastern Flanders that in that time
wasn't influenced by Brabantish yet.
Nowadays, Eastern Flemish is a Franconian
dialect, while before say the 15th century it was
Fris-Franconian. In fact, there where not much
differences then between the dialects of eastern
and western Flanders.
Since Western Flemish has kept most of  the
original Friso-Franconian features that you see
in Reynaert, I believe that this dialect is by far
the closest you can get to the original.
I'd even say that the most 'archaic' form of
Western Flemish is even to be found in your
own country, Patricia. In French Flanders (the
western part of the Nord-departement) the
older people still speak a dialect of Western-
Flemish that has de facto been isolated from
the rest of the Western Flemish or Dutch
speaking community since the 17th century.

Something else: I know of quite a few
translations of Reynaert in Dutch and Flemish
regional languages (Gronings, Limburgish,
Brabantish, Drents, Frysk...). Of course, the
Zeelandic translation is one of the best ;-)
I was wondering if Reynaert is translated in
so many dialects and regional languags outside
The Netherlands and Belgium as well. And if so:
why Reynaert?

A few lines from the Zeelandic translation
by Jan Kousemaker ("'t Be?ste-verael van den
Vos Reinaerd uut den Middele?uwsen tekst
beriemd verze?uwst", Middelburg 1981):

Belien voe Nobel

't Joengen! Wat zetten dien Ram d'r de sokken in!
'n Boschap voe den Konienk, dat was nae z'n zin.
't Was laete in de mirreg dat den Ram
an 't 'of bie Konienk Nobel kwam.
Toe die d'n zag (Belien daenig uut z'n sas)
mie de maele die uut Bruun z'n pels esnee? was,
riep n: 'Gostermanne! Ram Belien!
Is t'r soms wat mis, messchien?
Waer is Rein, Wat mot je mie z'n tasse?
Mo jie soms op den inoud passe?"
"As je mien, o Vorst, dat uut wil laete leie
dan za ik joe 's wat bezonders zeie:
Rein vroeg of ik voe den Konienk ok een brief
mee wou neme. Ik dee niks z? lief!"

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 15:26:00 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (R. F. Hahn)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 08:26:00 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.17 (02) [D/E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.082600.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.16 (05) [E/F]

20:18 16-6-2002 -0700 Gabriele Kahn <globalmoose at t-online.de>
(Global Moose Translations)
>Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
>"leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?

Henno Brandsma <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>:

>Yn reaksje hjirop: Der is wer gjin _etymologyske_ rilllaasje tusken
>_leeg_ en Nl _lelijk_. Dit le^ste is nammentlik o^flaat fan _leed +
>lijk_
>(ferlykje : kwalijk < kwaad + lijk), we^r't _leed_ stiet foar "min".

Dat kan ik bevestigen. Het WNT verbindt lelijk (in oudere spelling
leelijk) met "leed", en "leeg" met "lid":
===
LEELIJK, bnw. en bijw. Mnl. lee(t)lijc; ofri. l?thlic, nfri. lilk;
os. l?thl?k, mnd. ledelik, lelik, nnd. lelik, lelk; ohd. leidl?h,
mhd. leitlich; ags. l?dl?c. Van Leed (I). In het algemeen beteekent
leelijk dus: leed veroorzakende, onaangenaam.
===
LEDIG ? LEEG ?, bnw. Mnl. ledich; ofri. lethoch, nfri. liddich; mnd.
ledich, nnd. leddig; mhd. ledic, nhd. ledig; meng. lethi; on.
lidugr. De oorsprong is niet met zekerheid bekend; niet
onwaarschijnlijk is samenhang met Lid (I). De bet. zou dan
oorspronkelijk zijn: de beschikking hebbende over zijne leden, en
vandaar: vrij, onbelemmerd, waaruit de latere toepassingen zijn
voortgekomen.
===

Vergelijk ook de uitdrukking "ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen",
waarin "ledigheid" = werkeloosheid, initiatiefloosheid, de toestand
van niets te doen hebben. Het WNT hierover:

===
? In verschillend verband wordt ledigheid als de oorzaak van kwaad
genoemd, o. a. in zegswijzen waarvan Ledigheid is des duivels
oorkussen de meest bekende is, de oorsprong van deze opvatting zal
wel te zoeken zijn in Jes. Sirach 33, 27: Drijft hem tot het werck,
op dat hy niet ledigh en ga: want de ledigheyt leert veel quaets.
===

R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>:
>So that would be *_leedlig_ (leed+lig "suffer+like") in Low Saxon (Low
>German) if it existed, which apparently it doesn't.  German has
>_leidlich_, which, however, means something quite different from
'ugly':
>'tolerable', '(barely) acceptable'.

That's "lijdelijk" in Dutch, as in the expression "lijdelijk verzet
bieden" = non-violent, just non-cooperative. WNT:

===
LIJDELIJK, bnw. en bijw. Mnl. lidelijc; mnd. l?delik; mhd. l?delich,
nhd. leidlich. Van Lijden (I). De toepassingen waarin het woord
gebezigd wordt, laten zich ten deele door het gebruik van 't ww.
lijden, ten deele door dat van 't achtervoegsel -lijk verklaren.
A) Bnw. ? 1) In actieve toepassing. De eigenschap bezittende van te
verdragen, te dulden, t. w. in dien zin dat men niet bezwijkt onder,
of zich niet verzet tegen hetgeen men ondervindt; geduldig.
===
--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 12 June 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 16:38:44 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 09:38:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.093844.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Hermann Havekost at the University of Oldenburg (Germany) has posted a
copy of the 1498 Middle Low Saxon (Low German) version of _Reynke de
vos_ with facsimile and transliteration and even some sound files (!
which unfortunately are not working for me) here:
http://www.bis.uni-oldenburg.de/~havekost/needer/rey0-1.htm

At the same site there is also a link to the Middle Dutch version
(_Vanden vos reynarde_ = _Van den vos reynaerde_?), also a link to
Goethe's ("High") German translation (_Reineke Fuchs_), both of which
open in a side window.

>From which year is the earliest Dutch version?  There is a copy of it
here:
http://www.hum.uva.nl/dsp/ljc/reinaert/
Another copy here: http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_vos001vosr01/
There is also a copy of Willem van Hildegaersberch's "Dit is van Reyer
die vos", "Van Reynaert ende van Aven" and "Van Reynaert ende van Aven,"
but unfortunately no years seem to be given.  What about the French
edition?

Note also the Soci?t? Internationale Renardienne | International Reynard
Society: http://www.hull.ac.uk/Hull/FR_Web/fox.html

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:09:43 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:09:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.17 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.160943.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Hi Patricia, hi all

Patricia:
<<<I also wondered if there was still any current
dialect closer to Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?

Just my humble opinion, worth +/- 2 eurocent:
I think it's just impossible to quantify that for
several reasons:
1. I sometimes have the impression that in the history
of Dutch (or any language) the nowadays so called
Standard Dutch (or standard variant) is considered to
be the only result of that evolution that needs or
that is worth to be accounted for. I have probs with
that idea.

2. "Middle Dutch" as a (one) language doesn't exist:
it's a cover term for several variants, ranging from
(let's call it) West Flemish over Brabantian, Hollands
to Limburgian.
I wonder how it would be possible to compare the
various Middle Dutch'es with the Modern Standard
Variant and with the various dialects of these days. I
mean, there is a danger of making "cross
references"... AAAAARGH... This is not very clear, i'm
sorry.
I mean, there is no fixed point of reference what
Middle Dutch is concerned, no Middle Dutch ANS, no
Middle Dutch "Groene Boekje" and no Middle Dutch Van
Daele :).

3. Obviously all dialects evolved, but in quite
different ways. But modern West-Flemish retained
features of the WF Middle Dutch variant (no
dipthongization of certain long vowels in certain
conditions), but changed other features. While Modern
Brabantian dialects (in Flanders) still use the Middle
Dutch "gij". Other aspects evolved in another way.
Every variant retains and changes different
aspect/features of a previous stage...
I mean, how would it be possible to decide which
dialect/variant is closer to *the* Middle Dutch (which
doesn't exist in the first place) than any other
dialect/variant?

Best regards,

Frank Verhoft

=====
"De perto ningu?m ? normal!" - Caetano Veloso

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Frank,

Take out the moaning and groaning ;) , and tidy it up a bit here and
there, _et voil?_ you have a nice little "sub-blurb" for our budding
collection.  (Hint, hint!)  Yes, opinion piece are invited.

More about this project in a few days.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:11:44 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:11:44 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.161144.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Patricia:
<<<I didn't know about the Dutch origin of Renart
(Reynaert) either. I thought it was French.<<<

Ron:
<<<I am not sure anybody is really knows how far back
the story of the naughty fox goes.<<<

IMHO, this is the only possible answer to the question
of the origins of the Reynaert-stories. I doubt
whether it can be pertinent to state that it is a
story originated in this or that region. "Van den Vos
Reynaerde", edited by Lulofs and published by
Wolters-Noordhoff gives an excelent introduction on
the origins of the Reynaert-cycle, and all the
questions this search yields, the mixture of origins,
motives, genres...
Lulofs mentions (a.o.) three  of the earliest texts
that have surived the centuries:
* 1050, Ecbasis captivi, a "cento" about a sick
lion-king, a devious wolf whose castle is sieged by a
clever/smart fox and his troups. Probably written in
Lotharingen.
* 1150, Ysengrimus: Latin text, 6574 verses, probably
written in Gent, and it already contained the irony
and critique on religious and wordly leaders. The
animals are given names that mainly have Germanic
origins (though latinized): Ysengrimus and Reinardus
show up.
Some elements seem refer to the Aesopean tradition,
other elements to Arabic influence, and still others
are believed to be, erm, "Germanic", or rather quite
local.
* 1175, Le Roman de Renard, first Reynaert-collection
not written in Latin: Pierre de Saint-Cloud
* end 12th C, Heinrich der Glichezare, Reinhart Fuchs
(Middle High German), partly containing similar
branches as Le Roman de Renard, partically consisting
of other material.
Seems that in the region (modern days) North
France-Flanders-Germany the Reynaert stories were very
well known and popular round that time. Without
jumping to conclusions, Lulofs states that these
regions were inhabited by Franks, who were romanised
in N-France. He clearly gives sources and other
references, ranging from the Aisopos, Arabic sources,
the bible, Germanic folk tales, bestiaria... you name
it...

Best regards,

Frank Verhoft

=====
"De perto ningu?m ? normal!" - Caetano Veloso

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:15:42 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:15:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.17 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.161542.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Lowlanders,

Below a request I received.  If you respond, please do so directly and
privately to the person who wrote it.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

From: Dawn M Brancati <dmb73 at columbia.edu>
Subject:

Hi,

I was given your name and e-mail address by Ethnologue as the
source of their language  data for Belgium. I hope you can be of
assistance to me.

I am political scientist at Columbia University in New York, USA. I am
currently constructing a cross-national dataset, which includes among
other things, the ethno-linguistic composition of countries at the
sub-national (regional level). I currently have 19 countries in my
dataset
and would like to include Belgium among these countries. The dataset
will
eventually be made public for use by other researchers. To include
Belgium
among these other countries, I need to know the number (and percent) of
native speakers of French, Dutch, German as well as of any other
langauages, in the different regions/provinces of Belgium. I need this
information  for every year that it is available since at least 1975.
Could you please assist me in locating this information for Belgium? I
have tried many other attempts to locate this information
throught the government and national statistics institute, unfortunately
to no avail.

Thank you very much.

Regards,
Dawn Brancati

*************************************
Columbia University
Political Science Department
420 W. 118th Street, 7th Flr.
New York, NY 10027
E-Mail: dmb73 at columbia.edu

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:17:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:17:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.161716.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Patricia Beving <beving.patricia at wanadoo.fr>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (03) [E]

Thank you for the sites addresses.
Apparently the first branches of  "Le roman de Renart"- that gave its
name
to the French fox (le renard) until then called "Goupil"- date back from
the second half of the 12th century and are supposed to have been
written
by Pierre de Saint Cloud. Further branches developed in the 13th
century.The origins of "Le roman de Renart" are obscure, and seem to be
rooted in folk animal tales.
Best
Patricia

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 17 23:22:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:22:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.17 (08) [LS]
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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L 2002-06-15 (04)

'n Oobend, Ron, Leeglanners,

 Ron wrote:

>Wat seggt de (olen) L??d' bi Ju denn f?r d??tsch _h?sslich_ (ingelsch
>_ugly_)?

Heel stuur, Ron. Kein eein kann't opst?nns verkloorn'!

Mi d?cht, dat is v?r  Tieden all' verloorn gungen.

Mi full toeirst "?ddelig" or "oddelig" in, blauts: dat waard faaken un'
meirstentieds bruukt  as (Upper German: "stinkender Abfall")
"Oeddelgrooben", hauchd??tsch "Abwassergraben", is ook "h?sslich",
oobers
nich in 't s?lbich  Sinn. Waard ook seggt: "de Keirl sei heel ?ddelig
uut;
'n ?ddeligen Keirl w??r dat", oobers: is ne einfach "h?sslich".

Van' Oobend heff ick mien "Mentor" ( is bit tau sien  20. Leevjoohr
plattd??tsch tertoogen) froogt; hei w?ss't ook ne.

Mi d?cht, dat waard hier mit mennigdeel annere W??rd ?mschreeben.

An'n Innen schallst Du woll weller Recht behaulen mit Dien
"wanschap(p)en"
("Verwandtschaft", "relatives"); gifft joo ook in't Hauchd??tsche de
"pucklige Verwandtschaft". "GRINS"!

W?nsch Di wat- ick mutt woll einen uutdoohn!

Besten Oobend

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Fiete,

Amenn seggt de L??d' so wat as "(gaar)nich sch??n", "(gaar)nich smuck"
or "Dat/De s?ht gresig uut"?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 03:39:36 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 20:39:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.17 (09) [D/E/F]
Message-ID: <MON.17.JUN.2002.203936.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.17 (02) [D/E]

>From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.16 (05) [E/F]
>
>20:18 16-6-2002 -0700 Gabriele Kahn <globalmoose at t-online.de>
>(Global Moose Translations)
>>Am I right in assuming, then, that the currently predominate meaning of
>>"leeg" is related to the Dutch "lelijk", which meens "ugly"?
>
>Henno Brandsma <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>:
>
>>Yn reaksje hjirop: Der is wer gjin _etymologyske_ rilllaasje tusken
>>_leeg_ en Nl _lelijk_. Dit le^ste is nammentlik o^flaat fan _leed +
>>lijk_
>>(ferlykje : kwalijk < kwaad + lijk), we^r't _leed_ stiet foar "min".
>
>Dat kan ik bevestigen. Het WNT verbindt lelijk (in oudere spelling
>leelijk) met "leed", en "leeg" met "lid":
....
>Vergelijk ook de uitdrukking "ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen",
>waarin "ledigheid" = werkeloosheid, initiatiefloosheid, de toestand
>van niets te doen hebben. Het WNT hierover:

Hello all !

This meaning of "ledigheid" seems to be related to Eastern Friesland Low
Saxon "laierghkaid" (lazyness).
"la:j" = lazy; "laiwams" = lazybone; "lailensen" = to be lazy, to hang
around doing nothing.
For bad or ugly we have several expressions due to context or special
meaning: kw??d, o:lk, ma:l, lelk etc.
Out of these the word "lelk" (insolent, cheeky, malicious, quarrelsome
etc.)
might be of special interest exploring it's possible relationship to
words
like "le:gh" or the above mentioned "lelijk".

Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 14:22:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:22:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.18 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.072251.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.17 (08) [LS]

Hi Ron and Fiete,

where I come from (the Solling region of South Lower Saxony), the word
"gr?sig" for "ugly" - corresponding to Ron's last suggestion - has been
taken over into the local flavor of High German. I see a definite
connecting with English "greasy" there...

Cheers,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.17 (08) [LS]

Er, a definite connection, that is... ;-)

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 14:28:22 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:28:22 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.18 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.072822.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (03) [E]

Ron asked:

> From which year is the earliest Dutch version?

There are in fact two 'Dutch' (Flemish) versions of
Reinaert. The oldest is 'Van den Vos Reinaerde', which
dates back before a Latin translation by Balduinus
Iuvenis from 1271. There are five known manuscripts
of the Dutch/Flemish version of the fox-tale, the oldest
 three of them are not complete, the other two are younger
and known as the 'Dyckse handschrift' and 'Coburgse
handschrift'. No one knows the exact year this Reinaert
was written, but it must have been after the 12th century
Isengrinus (a tale in Latin from Ghent about a fox and a
wolf) and before the Latin translation from 1271.
'Van den vos Reinaerde' is in fact based on a story from
'Le Plaid', one of the branches of the French story-collection
known as 'Roman de Renart', but it is certainly not a trans-
lation of this story. The second half of the Flemish/Dutch
Reinaert is completely new and the characters are far more
outspoken than in the French story.

The younger Reinaert is the 14th century 'Reinaerts Historie',
that is almost twice as long as the original 'Van den Vos
Reinaerde' and is very moralizing. It isn't half as good as
'Van den Vos Reinaerde', in which Reinaert is a bit like a rebel
without a cause. In 'Reinaerts Historie', the fox is not
ridiculing the powerful, but he wants to be one of
them himself.

The Middle Low Saxon version from 1498 (Oldenburg)
that Ron mentioned ('Reinke de Vos') is a translation of a
late 15the century Dutch version by Heinric van Alcmaer.

The Ron mentioned Willem van Hildegaersberch. He was a
14th century 'sprokespreker', someone who performed as a
poet and a singer for, amongst others, the counts of Holland
(The Hague) and Zeeland (Middelburg). He wrote e few epic
poems based on the story of Reinaert. He probably died in
1408 and was very productive between 1383 and 1403, so his
Reinaert-poems are probably from that period.

A good starting point for more about all these translations
and authors is the 'Digitale Bibliotheek voor de Nederlandse
Letteren', www.dbnl.nl

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literature

Thanks for the information (above), Marco.

> The Middle Low Saxon version from 1498 (Oldenburg)
> that Ron mentioned ('Reinke de Vos') is a translation of a
> late 15the century Dutch version by Heinric van Alcmaer.

I thought it was from L?beck (then Lubece, apparently a West Slavic
name) rather than from Oldenburg.

Perhaps you got confused because the website I listed was at the
University of Oldenburg.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 14:56:49 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 07:56:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.075649.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.17 (09) [D/E/F]

Ik schreef:
>>Vergelijk ook de uitdrukking "ledigheid is des duivels oorkussen",
>>waarin "ledigheid" = werkeloosheid, initiatiefloosheid, de toestand
>>van niets te doen hebben. Het WNT hierover:

20:39 17-6-2002 -0700, Lowlands-L:
>This meaning of "ledigheid" seems to be related to Eastern
Friesland Low
>Saxon "laierghkaid" (lazyness).
>"la:j" = lazy; "laiwams" = lazybone;

Ook in het Nederlands: "lui" en "luiwammes". Volgens het WNT is de
herkomst onzeker. Wel wordt de uitdrukking genoemd (die ik zelf niet
ken): "lui en ledig".

--
Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Last update 12 June 2002 http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

For the dialects of the Eastern Friesland and Oldenburg area, 'lazy' is
listed as _leu_ ~ _loi_ ([lQ:j] ~ [lo:j]?) and _lei_ (= Holder Weigelt's
"la:j"), and there is _Leuwams_ and _Leiwams_ for 'lazy person' (_Wams_
being 'belly' I surmise).

I wonder if _Leuwagen_ is related to the above.  We use it also
elsewhere, not only in Low Saxon (Low German) but also in various North
German dialects.  It denotes a scrubber, i.e., a scrubbing brush with a
long handle (i.e., a scrubbing brush [= "waggon") for the lazy, those
who don't want to scrub the floor kneeling?).

In other Low Saxon dialects, 'lazy' is _fuul_ [fu:l] ("foul") or, in a
somewhat less negative way, _l?sig_ ['l9:zIC] (also 'tired',
'exhausted', 'weakened').  A lazy person can be called _Fuuljack_
['fu:ljak] (< _Jack_ 'jacket'), _Fuulwams_ ['fu:lva.ms] (< _Wams_
'belly'), or _Fuulpuup_ ['fu:lpu:p] (< _Puup_ 'fart').  'To be lazy' can
be rendered as _r?mfulen_ ['rY.mfu:ln] ("to laze about"), _r?mstahn_
['rY.mstQ:n] ("to stand around"), _r?mdammeln_ ['rY.mda.ml=n] ("to hang
around idly"), _r?mgammeln_ ['rY.mga.ml=n] ("to age/loiter about" <
Scandinavian _gammel_ 'old_), and _leddiglopen_ ['lEdICloUpm=] ("to run
idle/idly"), among several others.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 23:21:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:21:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.06.18 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.162129.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: Yogi Reppmann <Info at moin-moin.com>
Subject: Conference Event - Press Release

Dear Friends,

Please support, through your publications, the
upcoming Turner Conference schedule for this
November - Workshops in:German-American Contributions to Physical
Education 1852-2002, US-Low German
"Platt" language, Genealogy, Alternative Energies, Baltic Sea
Cooperation,Expanding the Turner Project in the 21st
Century. The kick-off meeting some weeks ago was promising.

Attached, and at the end of this mail, you will find a formatted copy of
our official press release to give you some more
information.  If you are interested in receiving more photos or an
article about Theodor Guelich, co-founder of the first
Turnverein, please contact me.

Thank you for your support,
Yogi Reppmann, President - American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Soc.

150 Years of 'Turnverein' in Davenport, Iowa

Nov. 1-3, 2002 Conference with Workshops in:
German-American Contributions to Physical Education 1852-2002, US-Low
German
"Platt" language, Genealogy, Alternative Energies, Baltic Sea
Cooperation,
Expanding the Turner Project in the 21st Century

The Institute for Low German in America will host a conference
celebrating the German-American contributions to
physical education in the United States for the years 1852-2002 at a
meeting at the Radisson Hotel in Davenport, Iowa,
on Nov. 1-3, 2002.

The main focus of the conference will be the Turner Societies, who were
leaders in the effort to make  physical
education a standard part of public school curricula in the United
States in the late nineteenth century. Besides their
athletic interests the Turners promoted the development of public parks
and playgrounds and supported legislation to
improve conditions for working people. At the height of the Turner
movement in the 1890s there were more than 300
gymnastic societies in 150 cities around the US with over 40,000
members. Turner halls had served as community
centers, providing assembly space for neighborhood groups, music and
theater societies, unions and political groups,
and for new German immigrants to learn American ways but also to speak
German and teach it to their children.

This conference will be of special interest to American and German
historians, genealogists, Platt speakers, and those
who would like to learn more about the fascinating but forgotten
heritage of their German-American forefathers. During
this weekend, German genealogists will be available to US family
researchers to read old German script and find new
resources.

A program of workshops, slide shows, lessons, traditional German cooking
instruction, folk dancing, theatre and music
performances, and singing will provide an enjoyable and educational
experience. Similar gatherings have forged great
bonds linking the Old World with the New, and had their beginning with
the Low German ("Platt") conference of the
American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society in Iowa in 1995.

City Mayor of Davenport, Charles Brooke, expects over 400 participants
from around the country and Germany:
"Besides informative slide show presentations, workshops with visiting
German specialists, Low German/English choir
music, theatre performances, and classes on granny's favorite recipes,
the gathering will also have an Oktoberfest
atmosphere."

In cooperation with: American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Society; the
Schuetzen Park Gilde, Davenport; German
American Heritage Center; Society for German American Studies; German
American National Congress; Hausbarn
Project, Manning, IA; German Consul General, Chicago; City of Davenport.

For further information, contact:
Institute for Low German in America, Dr. Joachim Reppmann, Professor of
German
  715 Orchard Pl.   Northfield, MN 55057
  fax: 011-49-461-582458   yogi at moin-moin.com
http://www.moin-moin.com        or

Mayor Charles W. Brooke, City Hall,
  226 West Fourth Street   Davenport, IA 52801
  (563) 326-7711   fax: (563) 328-6726   cwb at ci.davenport.ia.us

--

Moin-Moin!
Greetings!

Yogi Reppmann, President
American/Schleswig-Holstein Heritage Soc.


Flensburg
--------------------------------
Joachim Reppmann
Moltkestra?e 6
24937 Flensburg
Germany

Tel.: [01149] (0) 461 - 5700078
      [01149] (0) 173 - 4402194
Fax: [01149] (0) 461 - 5002779

info at moin-moin.com
YogiReppmann at yahoo.com
www.moin-moin.com

Northfield:
--------------------------------
Joachim Reppmann
715 Orchard Place
Northfield, Mn 55057
USA

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 23:16:07 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 16:16:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.161607.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (03) [D/E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> For the dialects of the Eastern Friesland and Oldenburg area, 'lazy' is
> listed as _leu_ ~ _loi_ ([lQ:j] ~ [lo:j]?) and _lei_ (= Holder Weigelt's
> "la:j"), and there is _Leuwams_ and _Leiwams_ for 'lazy person' (_Wams_
> being 'belly' I surmise).
>
> I wonder if _Leuwagen_ is related to the above.  We use it also
Dutch: luiwagen
> elsewhere, not only in Low Saxon (Low German) but also in various North
> German dialects.  It denotes a scrubber, i.e., a scrubbing brush with a
> long handle (i.e., a scrubbing brush [= "waggon") for the lazy, those
> who don't want to scrub the floor kneeling?).
>
> In other Low Saxon dialects, 'lazy' is _fuul_ [fu:l] ("foul") or, in a
> somewhat less negative way, _l?sig_ ['l9:zIC] (also 'tired',
> 'exhausted', 'weakened').  A lazy person can be called _Fuuljack_
> ['fu:ljak] (< _Jack_ 'jacket'), _Fuulwams_ ['fu:lva.ms] (< _Wams_
Dutch: luiwammes
> 'belly'), or _Fuulpuup_ ['fu:lpu:p] (< _Puup_ 'fart').  'To be lazy' can
> be rendered as _r?mfulen_ ['rY.mfu:ln] ("to laze about"), _r?mstahn_
> ['rY.mstQ:n] ("to stand around"), _r?mdammeln_ ['rY.mda.ml=n] ("to hang
Flemish: rondwareren, (rond)dremmelen
> around idly"), _r?mgammeln_ ['rY.mga.ml=n] ("to age/loiter about" <
> Scandinavian _gammel_ 'old_), and _leddiglopen_ ['lEdICloUpm=] ("to run
> idle/idly"), among several others.

>>From Flanders:
Leegaard= luiaard (E=lazy person)
leegelooielente= E: extremely slow and languid
looi = lui (looi zijn) (E lazy)
ijdelen= ledigen = ielen = legen (E/ to empty)
Je mag nooit met ijdele handen over het erf lopen (E: There is alwaeys
something you can do.

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 22:39:42 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:39:42 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.18 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.153942.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.17 (01) [E/Z]

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (04) [D/E/French]
>
> Patricia Beving asked
>
>> I also wondered if there was still any current dialect closer
>> to
>> Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?
>
> The writer of Reynaert, an anonymous writer
> who names himslef 'Willem die Madoc maecte'
> ('William who wrote Madoc'), wrote in the
> dialect of Eastern Flanders that in that time
> wasn't influenced by Brabantish yet.
> Nowadays, Eastern Flemish is a Franconian
> dialect, while before say the 15th century it was
> Fris-Franconian. In fact, there where not much
> differences then between the dialects of eastern
> and western Flanders.
And there are still not so much differences between the two.We
understand
each other perfectually
> Since Western Flemish has kept most of  the
> original Friso-Franconian features that you see
> in Reynaert, I believe that this dialect is by far
> the closest you can get to the original
I agree, because I can still read it now.
> I'd even say that the most 'archaic' form of
> Western Flemish is even to be found in your
> own country, Patricia. In French Flanders (the
> western part of the Nord-departement) the
> older people still speak a dialect of Western-
> Flemish that has de facto been isolated from
> the rest of the Western Flemish or Dutch
> speaking community since the 17th century.
But is also perfectly understandable for us  Flemings  on both sides of
the
'schreve'(= borderline) I love to listen to the free radio Uilenspieghel
in Cassel in France.

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 18 22:38:08 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 15:38:08 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.18 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.18.JUN.2002.153808.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.17 (04) [E]

> From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Help needed
>
> Hi Patricia, hi all
>
> Patricia:
> <<<I also wondered if there was still any current
> dialect closer to Middle Dutch than Standard Dutch?
>
> Just my humble opinion, worth +/- 2 eurocent:
> I think it's just impossible to quantify that for
> several reasons:
> 1. I sometimes have the impression that in the history
> of Dutch (or any language) the nowadays so called
> Standard Dutch (or standard variant) is considered to
> be the only result of that evolution that needs or
> that is worth to be accounted for. I have probs with
> that idea.
>
> 2. "Middle Dutch" as a (one) language doesn't exist:
> it's a cover term for several variants, ranging from
> (let's call it) West Flemish over Brabantian, Hollands
> to Limburgian.
> I wonder how it would be possible to compare the
> various Middle Dutch'es with the Modern Standard
> Variant and with the various dialects of these days. I
> mean, there is a danger of making "cross
> references"... AAAAARGH... This is not very clear, i'm
> sorry.
> I mean, there is no fixed point of reference what
> Middle Dutch is concerned, no Middle Dutch ANS, no
> Middle Dutch "Groene Boekje" and no Middle Dutch Van
> Daele :).

Dear Frank (what's in a name!)
There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's a big one in a
number of
volumes).
What we need is aan early Dutch (early Flemish) dictionnary.You may call
it
also a Franconian dictionnary
Why do people always want to put a language in specified little boxes,
one
for Flemish, one for Dutch, one for....All must have a name.
Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'? Scientists say it is
in
Middle High German, but for me it could also be a Flemish variant
because I
can still read it (without having had any instructions around that
subject)!
>
> 3. Obviously all dialects evolved, but in quit different ways.
dialects??
 Languages you mean! Flemish was the cultural language, and a big part
of
the early Dutch arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
standardlanguage afterwards.
 But modern West-Flemish retained
> features of the WF Middle Dutch variant (no
> dipthongization of certain long vowels in certain
> conditions), but changed other features. While Modern
> Brabantian dialects (in Flanders) still use the Middle
> Dutch "gij". Other aspects evolved in another way.
> Every variant retains and changes different
> aspect/features of a previous stage...
In West Flanders we also still use 'gij' (and 'ge' and 'gie' and 'je'
and
'you' and 'dje'(from du?))
> I mean, how would it be possible to decide which
> dialect/variant is closer to *the* Middle Dutch (which
> doesn't exist in the first place) than any other
> dialect/variant?
Could it not be the variant that can still read the originnal text
without
using a dictionnary, which in West-Flanders is quiet possible!I am
alwaeys
happy to be able to read f.i. Van Maerlant without help from any book
(but
for the words who are not used anymore, be they not that frequent).

groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 19 16:02:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:02:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.19 (01) [E/Z]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.090230.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (06) [E]

Luc Vanbrabant schreef:

> >From Flanders:
> Leegaard= luiaard (E=lazy person)
> leegelooielente= E: extremely slow and languid
> looi = lui (looi zijn) (E lazy)
> ijdelen= ledigen = ielen = legen (E/ to empty)
> Je mag nooit met ijdele handen over het erf lopen (E: There is alwaeys
> something you can do.

Ik me?ne a West-Vlams _looi_ glad 't zelde klienkt
as Ze?uws _lui_. De Ollandse /ui/ is in 't Ze?uws
en 't West-Vlams naebie aoltied /uu/, mae in de uut-
zonderlijke gevaollen daer at dat nie z? is, klienkt de
/ui/ as de /eu/ in 't Duutse _Leute_ en nie as in 't
Ollands _fruit_.
Volgens mien ? me 't bie 't O?st-Fries _loi_, _leu_
of _lei_, 't West-Vlams _looi_ en 't Ze?uws _lui_
over krek 't zelde woord mee krek dezelde uutspraeke.

Luc, jie noem _leegaard_ voe 'luiaard' en daedeu 'euge ik
me 't Ze?uwse _leegganger_ dat a in 't Ollands 'lanterfanter'
zou zien. Ok ? me in 't Ze?uws de uutdrukkige _ iet over
leeggang doee_ wat a z?vee wil zeie as 'iet op overschot
doee', iet all?nig mae doee at er niks aors te doeen is dus.

In 't Ze?uws ? me trouwens een keurig onderscheid tussen
_le?ge_ (NL 'laag', twe?klank e?) en _leege_ (NL 'leeg', e?n-
klank ee).

In 't dialect van 't eiland Walcher kenne ik 't woord _legelik_
vo NL 'waarschijnlijk', 'allicht': "da ku me legelik nie zonder
'im doee" (NL: dat kunnen we allicht niet zonder hem doen).
Is dat nog ieversten anders ok bekend?

Tjuu,

Marco

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.18 (06) [E]

I forgot to mention that Ze?uws has the word
_loo_ (pronounced as 'low') for low besides
_le?ge_ or _laege_. I only know it as a noun,
e.g.:

"Da gos eit n uut de loo": he's got that grass
from the low (piece of land).
"De guus spele aoltie in de loo, da? tenden 't
plein": the children always play in the low (part
of the square), there at the end of the square.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Lazy...

Beste leeglanners,

Regarding "lazy" I'd like to add that in Brabantish "leuzig" is also
used, but usually in the combination "lamleuzig"..."ne lamleuzigen boek"
for example is an utterly lazy (male) person.
Other words denoting laziness are : "lam", "tam" and "loo" (where the oo
stands for a sound like the French word "on" (= "man" (G)), a long nasal
form of an "o").
"Leuzig" makes me think of "deuzig", which refers to a condition when
one has eaten a little too much and he feels a little sleepy
afterwards...slumbering...
The verb that describes this "twilight" zone between being awake and
sleeping is "zuilen".
Bye for now !

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: etymology

As a newly subscribed Northumbrian speaker, could someone help with the
etymology of the word 'Gadgie' (sometimes Gadgee), which means man,
bloke
or fellow. The word is some times used in conjuction with 'ad' or 'owld'
-
as in 'Ad Gadgie' (an old man).

My society believes the word is of Roma (gypsy) origin. Are there any
lowland connections.

Thanks,

Glenn Simpson
Northumbrian Language Society

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Luc wrote (above):

> Regarding "lazy" I'd like to add that in Brabantish "leuzig" is also
> used,

Which has a Low Saxon (Low German) _l?sig_ ['l9:zIC] (similar
pronunciation) 'lazy'.

> "Leuzig" makes me think of "deuzig", which refers to a condition when > one has eaten a little too much and he feels a little sleepy > afterwards...slumbering...

Which has a Low Saxon (Low German) cognate with a similar pronunciation
(['d9:zIC]): _d?sig_ 'numb', 'sleepy', 'lethargic', 'sluggish',
'stupid', 'weird (in behavior)'.  There is also the verb (/d??z-/)
_d?sen_ ['d9:zn=] 'to sleep/nap (not in bed)', 'to be in a stupor', 'to
be absent-minded'.  There are also nouns: _D?sel_ ['d9:zl=] 'ignorant
person', _D?sigkeit_ ['d9:zICka.It] 'ignorance', 'stupidity'.

Glenn wrote (above):

> As a newly subscribed Northumbrian speaker,

Welcome, Glenn!  It is nice to have Northumbrian represented on
Lowlands-L.

> could someone help with the
> etymology of the word 'Gadgie' (sometimes Gadgee), which means man,
> bloke
> or fellow. The word is some times used in conjuction with 'ad' or
> 'owld' -
> as in 'Ad Gadgie' (an old man).
>
> My society believes the word is of Roma (gypsy) origin. Are there any
> lowland connections.

If it is from Romany, I would assume that it is derived from
Anglo-Romany _gadgie_ ['gadji] ~ ['gadZi] 'man', which appears to be a
cognate of Vlach-Romani _gadzhe_ [ga'dZ,e] 'non-Roma (male)' (as opposed
to _rrom_ [GOm] ~ [ROm] ~ _dom_ [dOm] 'Rom(a)' ("Gypsy")).

Apparently, _gadgie_ is used in Scots too
(http://www.sol.co.uk/m/merlinpress/questions.html):

"There are many words used in particular parts of the country that are
distinctive and relate to the history of the language in that area, so
they should not be written off as aberrations or incorrect forms. For
example: gadgie - a man, from Romany, in parts of the country where
there have been many tinker travellers; ..."

A maccaronic poem from the Berwick Advertiser, 1910
(http://www2.arnes.si/~eusmith/Romany/samples.html):

A 'gadgie' when he is a 'chor'
A 'jugal' always fears
For 'jugals' as a rule are kept
By 'gadgies' with big 'keirs'

(gadgie:man, chor:thief, jugal:dog, keir:house)

[_Keir_ appears to come from Mongolic _ger_ ~ _ker_ 'dwelling' -- going
back to the Moghul rule of India?.]

If this and other Romany words were passed on to Northumbrian and Scots,
I would suspect this happened via the "jargon" of tinkers and other
travelling folks, most of which had little or no Roma ancestry but had
had traditional contacts with Roma.  Their "jargon" reminds one a little
of Rotwelsch (now extinct but with loan traces in German dialects), a
German-based "jargon" with Romany and Yiddish elements created and used
among socially marginalized people.

I can't think of a cognate of _gadgie_ in Low Saxon (Low German).

Regards
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 19 16:21:41 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:21:41 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.092141.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Popkema" <apopkema at fa.knaw.nl>
Subject: Old Frisian 'thing'/'ewa'

Hello,

My name is Anne Popkema, and I am currently editing an Old Frisian
incunabulum at the Fryske Akademy yn Ljouwert, Holland. This book
consists of legal texts, and one of the most frequent legal terms, is
Old Frisian 'thing', which means something like 'court session'.
However, that translation is obviously a quite modern one, and I would
like to have an English equivalent of 'thing' that appeals more to
medieval society and resembles (if possible) the Old Frisian word.
Another word is 'ewa', which means '(traditional) law'. As 'law' is
allready used for Ofr. 'riucht', I would like to use a different term
for 'ewa'. Once again, suggestions are quite welcome, and in all cases I
would like to use forms that resemble the Old Frisian original, if
possible.

Greetings,

Anne Tjerk Popkema
Fryske Akademy
+31 (0)58 2343035
apopkema at fa.knaw.nl

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

Welcome to Lowlands-L, Anne!

"Thing" (the Old Germanic institution, a word still used in North
Germanic) tends to be "translated" as "thing," "ting" or "?ing" in
specialist English literature.  (In that case it would require an
explanatory footnote.)  How about "meeting of the Thing"?

How about translating _ewa_ as "legal lore"?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 19 16:33:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 09:33:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.19 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.093319.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.06.18 (05) [E]

I wrote:

> > I'd even say that the most 'archaic' form of
> > Western Flemish is even to be found in your
> > own country, Patricia. In French Flanders (the
> > western part of the Nord-departement) the
> > older people still speak a dialect of Western-
> > Flemish that has de facto been isolated from
> > the rest of the Western Flemish or Dutch
> > speaking community since the 17th century.

And then Luc Vanbrabant:

> But is also perfectly understandable for us  Flemings  on both sides of
> the
> 'schreve'(= borderline) I love to listen to the free radio Uilenspieghel
> in Cassel in France.

I'd like to add that speakers of all dialects of, let's say,
the southwestern dialectgroup (called Zeeuws/Zeelandic
in the Netherlands, West-Vlaams/West-Flemish in Bel-
gium and Vlamsch/Flemish in France) can perfectly under-
stand all other dialects. For me, as a speaker of the dialect
of Walcheren (Zeeland, Netherlands) it is no problem
whatsoever to communicate with people from Bruges,
Ostend, Kortrijk or French Flanders in my own dialect.
In fact, as soon as someone from another part of the
Zeeuws/West-Vlaams language continuum picks up
a 'familiar' sound, they always switch from Standard
Dutch or French to the regional language.

I think that SIL's Ethnologue has done a nice job in
describing all these regional languages as part of a whole.
It really goes too far for me to name this whole 'Vlaams'
as SIL does, because 'Vlaams' could never be an accurate
name for it since 'Vlaams' is nowadays mostly used for
the Standard Dutch as spoken in Belgium and not for the
original Friso-Franconian dialects in the southewest of
Holland and the west of Belgium.
That is however a relatively small mistake of SIL compared
with the fact that they name Achterhoeks, Drents, Gronings,
Sallands, Stellingwerfs and Twents as separate languages (!)
in stead of naming them as dialects or dialectgroups of Low
Saxon. SIL even summs up Veenkoloniaals and Wester-
wolds as separate language, whil in fact they are Low Saxon
dialects of the dialectgroup of Gronings... And then Lim-
burgish, officially recognized by the Dutch government, isn't
even named in SIL's ethnologue (www.ethnologue.com).

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Beste Luc, dear all

As Marco once wrote, the use of the word "Flemish"
sometimes is very confusing... and i'm sorry, but i
don't understand very well what you mean by the words
"Flemish" and (or versus??) "Dutch" in your mail.

<<<There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's

a big one in a number of volumes).<<<

I meant a contemporary one :).

<<<What we need is an early Dutch (early Flemish)
dictionnary. You may call it also a Franconian
dictionnary<<<

Why would we need that? The MNW already exists...
A quote from the digitalized version (*my stresses*):
"Het elektronische boek dat op de cd-rom met het icoon
MNW aangeduid wordt, biedt de elektronische versie van
deel 1 tot 9 van het Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek.
Deze negen delen bevatten het eigenlijke woordenboek
en beschrijven *grosso modo* de woordenschat van het
Nederlands uit de periode *1200-1500*, zoals het
gebruikt werd in de gebieden die *grotendeels*
samenvallen met het huidige Nederland en Vlaanderen.
Elke betekenis en elke betekenisnuance wordt steeds
ge?llustreerd met ??n of meer citaten uit de
Middelnederlandse teksten die door de samenstellers
van het MNW als bron voor het woordenboek geselecteerd
werden."

What do you mean by "early Dutch" and "early Flemish"
and how do you distinguish between them, on which
linguistic and or historical grounds?
Why would we need a Franconian dictionary and how do
you see the relation between Franconian and what you
call "early Dutch" and (versus?) "early Flemish"?

<<<Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'?
Scientists say it is in Middle High German, but for me
it could also be a Flemish variant because I can still
read it (without having had any instructions around
that subject)!<<<

"Ludwigslied" (+/- 882) is written in OLD High German
(Rein Franconian). There are some very good reasons
for *linguists* to call it "Old" and "High German",
but these criteria (the most important one being the
second or High German sound shift) of course have
nothing to do with you understanding the text.
You're right in a certain way, in the same way a
German could say that Old or Middle Dutch reminds
him/her of a German variant.

<<<dialects?? Languages you mean! Flemish was the
cultural language, and a big part of the early Dutch
arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
standard language afterwards.<<<

No, i meant "dialects" :). Without wanting to
(re)start a discussion about the terms "dialect" and
"language", which imho is a pseudo problem anyway, i
just meant something as "language variant" without any
social, attitudinal or cultural evaluation.
But again, i find it very difficult to understand what
you mean by "Flemish" and "early Dutch". Could you
please explain a bit further.

<<<In West Flanders we...<<<

Luc Vanbrabant??? What's in a name? ;):))

Beste Luc, ik hoop dat je tijd vindt om een beetje
dieper op m'n vragen in te gaan. Ik kijk er alvast
naar uit!

Van harte,

Frank

=====
"De perto ningu?m ? normal!" - Caetano Veloso

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 19 23:11:12 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 16:11:12 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.161112.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen <baxichedda at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (11) [E]

Hello all,
I am somewhat slow in answer - a lot of work these
days...

 R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com> wrote
> I (not very familiar with horses and unfortunately
> allergic to them,
> though very appreciative of them) submitted the Low
> Saxon term:
>
> > /kr?p-n+biit-r/ Kr?ppenbieter ['krYpm=bi:t3] ~
> > /kr?f-n+biit-r/
> >    Kr?ppenbieter ['krYfm=bi:t3] 'inferior horse',
> > '(old) nag'
> >    ("crib biter," probably because it is not fed
> as
> > well as more able
> >    horses -- sad, but such are country life and
> the
> > "good" old days)
>
> Lone Olesen (very familiar with horses and probably
> not allergic to
> them) kindly responded with the Danish equivalent:
>
> > krybbebider (crib biter - a horse with the habit
> of
> > swallowing air, it rests its teeth on the crib to
> get
> > the right angle on the throat for doing it. The
> air
> > can take up space inside the stomach and the horse
> > will then eat less and become skinny).
>
> Thanks for clearing that up, Lone.  It's sad enough
> a story, though not
> as sad as the one I had fantasized about (i.e., a
> horse gnawing on the
> wood of a crib for lack of food ...).

[...]

> Some more Low Saxon horse-related words:
>
> /zeel/ Seel [ze:l] ~ [zE:l] 'rope', '(horse's)
> harness' (neut., pl.
>    Selen)
>
> /zeel-n+t??g/ Selent??g ['ze:lnty:C] ~ ['zE:lnty:C]
> '(horse's) harness'
>    (neut., uncountable; < + T??g 'stuff',
> 'paraphernalia')
>
> /peir(d')+k??p-r/ Peerk?per ~ Pierkeuper
> ['pE:I3k9.Ip3] ~ ['pi:3k9.Ip3]
>    'horse dealer' (masc., pl. Peerk?pers ~
> Pierkeupers; + K?per 'buyer'
>    < /k??p-/ k?pen 'to buy')
>
> /peir(d')+t?xt-r/ Peert?chter ~ Piert?chter
> ['pE:I3tYCt3] ~
>    ['pi:3tYCt3] ("horses cultivator") 'horse
> breeder' (masc., pl.
>    Peert?chters ~ Piert?chters < Tucht [tUXt]
> 'breed' < _teh(g)en_
>    'to pull/raise'; a German loan (Z?chter <
> Zucht)?; might Danish
>    _hesteopdr?tter_ "horses up-raiser" 'horse
> breeder' be a calque
>    based on older Low Saxon *_peyrdeopteyger_, cf.
> Modern Low Saxon
>    _(up- ~ op-)te(g)hen_ 'to pull/raise (up)', 'to
> raise (children or
>    animals)' (p. part. (ge-)tagen), e.g., Boorn un
> tagen was ik in
>    Hamborg 'I was born and raised in Hamburg')
>
> /peir(d')+stal/ Peerstall ~ Pierstall ['pE:I3sta.l]
> ~ ['pi:3sta.l]
>    'hose stable' (masc., pl. Peerst?ll ~ Pierst?ll
> ['pE:I3stE.l] ~
>    ['pi:3stE.l]; Danish _hestestald_; < + Stall
> 'stable')
>
> /peir(d')+deek/ Peerdeek ~ Pierdeek ['pE:I3de:k] ~
> ['pi:3de:k] 'horse
>    blanket' (fem., pl. Peerdeken ~ Pierdeken; cf.
> Danish _hested?kken_;
>    < + Deek 'cover', 'blanket')
>
> /stal+knext/ Stallknecht ['sta.lknEC(t)] 'stable
> hand', 'groom'
>    (masc., pl. Stallknechten; cf. Dutch
> _stalknecht_; < Stall
>    'stable' + Knecht 'servant', 'farmhand' {cognate
> of English
>    "knight"})
>
> /peir(d')+kamer/ Peerkamer ~ Pierkomer ['pE:I3kQ:k3]
> ~ ['pi:3ko:m3]
>    'groom's room (next to the horse stables)' (fem.,
> pl. Peerkamern
>    ~ Pierkomern; < + Kamer ~ Komer 'chamber',
> '(small) room')
>
> Hmmm ... and then there is this _klaphingst_,
> _klophingst_, etc.
> (stallion with one testicle).  I am not familiar
> with this rather
> specialized term (or the condition, and I don't
> understand this
> reference to _kloppen_ 'to knock' or _klappen_ 'to
> knock', 'to clap',
> 'to fold').  I would expect something like
> *_Klopphingst_ or
> *_Klapphingst_ in Low Saxon then, but I do not know
> if it exists.
>
> By the way, _Klapp_ [klap] (fem., pl. _Klappen_) can
> also refer to a
> small stable door (besides 'tailgate', 'flap' or
> '(hinged) lid'), one of
> those that does not cover the entire doorway, fairly
> typical of horse
> stables, I guess.

To begin from the start... it is quite common to
"name" a horse after its bad habits, eg. a restless
horse who takes up the habit of rocking from one front
leg to the other is called a "weaver" (v?ver in
Danish). But the crib biter might also develop the
habit because it has too little to eat, which
fortunately is not so common nowadays.
It is quite a "revelation" to me to find that most
"Danish" horse words seem to be Low Saxon, I guess
people mostly refer to a German origin because they
don't know the difference, and some words seem to have
come from German - eg. the astmatic horse who is
"engbrystig" - "Engbr?stig" or the rider's legs that
for some reason are "schenkler" even today.

"Seelent??g" is our "selet?j", and the "Peert?chter"
could be a "hestetugter", but the word "tugte" which
used to be Danish for breeding of both animals and
children has hence become very negative in its
meaning, and if you said it today, it means a person
who teaches the horses some "good manners" by beating
them :-(

About the "klaphingst",
Marco Evenhuis <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl> also wrote
that:

>>>To come back to the 'horse-issue', Ron mentions the
_klaphingst_
or _klophingst_. I already mentioned Zeelandic has the
same word
for this handicaped stallion (with one testicle):
_klop'iengst_. One
would expect it to be a Standard Dutch term as well,
but as far as I
know it isn't.
Zeeuws has the verb _kloppe(n)_ in the meaning of 'to
sharpen
a scythe'. I believe it goes a bit too far to state
that a _klop'iengst_
is a horse that met a well sharpened scythe...<<<

The condition of the stallion is of a medical kind, I
believe the same suffering can happen to humans as
well, when the "working part" of the testicle does not
go from the part in the body where it is created and
down to where it is supposed to be. My "Dansk
etymologisk ordbog" suggests that "klaphingst" has a
connection to "kloppen" from Low Saxon, referring to
the only way the kastration of the poor horse could
take place: knocking with a wooden hammer (!) to
destroy the cord transporting the sperm (it says so in
the dictionary anyway). I think Ron is quite right, it
was not always a good life to be a horse in the "good
old days"...
Greetings, Lone Olesen

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Thanks for sharing your equestrian expertise (above), Lone.

> It is quite a "revelation" to me to find that most
> "Danish" horse words seem to be Low Saxon, I guess
> people mostly refer to a German origin because they
> don't know the difference,

That's right.  And how could they be expected to know any better when
most speakers in Germany didn't even know or at least had believed or
payed lipservice to the line that their language belongs to German (and
the language has all but disappeared among Denmark's "German" [i.e.,
Germanized] minority)?  However, I would expect the distinction to be
made in better Danish dictionaries that provide etymological
information, since it ought to be a well-known fact that Scandinavian
(especially Danish) experienced enormous lexical influx specifically
from Middle Low Saxon (Low German).

> and some words seem to have
> come from German - eg. the astmatic horse who is
> "engbrystig" - "Engbr?stig" or the rider's legs that
> for some reason are "schenkler" even today

The Low Saxon equivalent of that (hwee! another horse term!) is
_amb?stig_ ['?a.mb9stIC] ~ _ambostig_ ['?a.mbOstIC].  'Breast' is _Bost_
[bOs(t)], and 'narrow' is _eng_ [?E.N(k)] (or _drang_ [dra.N(k)] in the
sense of 'tight(-fitting)').  I assume *_engb?stig_ ~ *_engbostig_
underwent assimilation of the /N/ to the following /b/ = /mb/.  However,
I believe this word can also be used for humans, in the past (or still
now?) perhaps even for 'asthmatic'.

'Thigh' is _Schenkel_ in German and _Schenkel_ ['SE.nkl=] ~ _Schinkel_
['SI.Nkl=] in Low Saxon (besides _Lank_ [la.Nk] and _Lurr_ [lU.3`]), so
*_Schenkler_ ~ *_Schenkler_ would be possible in Low Saxon also (though
I can not vouch for it actually existing).

> but the word "tugte" which
> used to be Danish for breeding of both animals and
> children has hence become very negative in its
> meaning, and if you said it today, it means a person
> who teaches the horses some "good manners" by beating
> them :-(

Interesting!  In German and Low Saxon there are lexical connections
there too (and I don't doubt for one second that training horses pretty
much always amounted to abuse in the past).  However, German _z?chten_
and Low Saxon _t?gten_ usually refer to actual breeding, while only
_z?chtigen_ and _t?gtigen_ respectively explicitly denote 'to
train/teach by means of physical punishment' (not only in reference to
animals).

> The condition of the stallion is of a medical kind, I
> believe the same suffering can happen to humans as
> well, when the "working part" of the testicle does not
> go from the part in the body where it is created and
> down to where it is supposed to be.

Yes, this is a not uncommon condition known in English as "undescended
testicle," alternatively as "cryptorchid testicle" and "cryptorchism"
(which nowadays tends to be discovered early and corrected after one
year of age in humans).

> connection to "kloppen" from Low Saxon, referring to
> the only way the kastration of the poor horse could
> take place: knocking with a wooden hammer (!) to
> destroy the cord transporting the sperm (it says so in
> the dictionary anyway).

Ouch!

> I think Ron is quite right, it
> was not always a good life to be a horse in the "good
> old days"...

Or a human!  (But let's not go there.)

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: Incidentally, I was very surprised to learn that I'm allergic to
horses, since I have had next to no contact with them.  Apparently, the
explanation is that when I grew up, upholstery tended to be stuffed with
horse hair.  I know, I know!  I'm kind of dating myself here, but I
assure you it was *after* the bronze age.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 03:23:07 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:23:07 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (05) [E/LS]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.202307.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.17 (08) [LS]

>From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
>Subject: LL-L 2002-06-15 (04)
...
>>Wat seggt de (olen) L?????? bi Ju denn f?? ?????????ch _h???lich_ (ingelsch
>>_ugly_)?
>
>Heel stuur, Ron. Kein eein kann't opst?????? verkloorn'!
>
>Mi d??????, dat is v?? ?? Tieden all' verloorn gungen.

Moin Fiete !

In Eastern Friesland we know the word "gri:selgh" but this
means "horrible", "awful" or "frightening". ("gri:seln" = to shudder)
For "ugly" we mostly use "ma:l" (a French loan ?).
"Dat let l??ip ma:l" = that looks very ugly
"Dat is 'n m??l sghilt" = thats an ugly image
"Ma:l" also denotes "bad", "mad", "crazy"

Kumpelment
Holger

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (04) [E]

>From: Lone Elisabeth Olesen <baxichedda at yahoo.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.10 (11) [E]
>
>Hello all,
>I am somewhat slow in answer - a lot of work these
>days...
...
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Lexicon
>
>Thanks for sharing your equestrian expertise (above), Lone.
>
>> It is quite a "revelation" to me to find that most
>> "Danish" horse words seem to be Low Saxon, I guess
>> people mostly refer to a German origin because they
>> don't know the difference,
...
>> and some words seem to have
>> come from German - eg. the astmatic horse who is
>> "engbrystig" - "Engbr??????g"
>The Low Saxon equivalent of that (hwee! another horse term!) is
>_amb??????g_ ['?a.mb9stIC] ~ _ambostig_ ['?a.mbOstIC].  'Breast' is _Bost_
>[bOs(t)], and 'narrow' is _eng_ [?E.N(k)] (or _drang_ [dra.N(k)] in the
>sense of 'tight(-fitting)').  I assume *_engb??????g_ ~ *_engbostig_
>underwent assimilation of the /N/ to the following /b/ = /mb/.  However,
>I believe this word can also be used for humans, in the past (or still
>now?) perhaps even for 'asthmatic'.

Hello Ron !
Perhaps You are right but if I hear the term "ambostig" I'd rather think
it
to be derived from *aam-bostig* (breath-breasty / breast breathing).
Regards
Holger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Fiete, Holger,

In other dialects of Low Saxon (Low German), (French _mal_ 'bad', 'ill'
>) _mal_ ~ _mall_ [ma.l] does not mean 'ugly', only 'crazy', 'weird', 'silly', 'stupid', 'out of control'.  Derivations are (/mal-/) _mallen_ [ma.ln] 'to behave in a silly way', 'to clown around', _mallerig_ 'silly', _Mallaap_ ['ma.l(?)Q:p] ("silly monkey/ape" ~ _Maiaap_ "May monkey/ape") 'silly person', 'clown', _Mallm?hl_ ['ma.lm9:l] ("crazy mill") 'merry-go-round'.

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 03:25:50 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 20:25:50 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.19.JUN.2002.202550.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 19.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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=======================================================================

From: Iduna Borger <idborger at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (02) [E]

Reply to Ann Popkema regarding "Ewa":
     The term Ewa can be translated as "common law,"
a term in English and American law defined by Black's
Law Dictionary as "comprising the body of those
principles and rules of action, relating to the
government and security of persons and property, which
derive their authority solely from usages and customs
of immemorial antiquity...particularly the ancient
unwritten law of England."

           Iduna Brabender, J.D.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 14:41:36 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:41:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.20 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.074136.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Edwin Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (02) [E]

At 09:21 AM 06/19/02 -0700, Ron wrote:

  "Thing" (the Old Germanic institution, a word still used in North
  Germanic) tends to be "translated" as "thing," "ting" or "?ing" in
  specialist English literature.  (In that case it would require an
  explanatory footnote.)  How about "meeting of the Thing"?

Actually, in English we have the word "hustings", i.e. "hus - tings",
local meetings to which politicians flock during election
time, with the attendant expression "out in the hustings", that is, at
the local riding level.

Ed Alexander
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

W?s in sinnestriel, in oar hat der forlet fan.
Fryske Sprekwurd

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

But surely, Ed, "hustings" is not English by origin.  Or is it?  If it
were English I would expect (*_h?s+?ing_ >) *"house thing".  The
_American Heritage Dictionary_ says that it comes from _h?sting_ < Old
Norse _h?s?ing_ = _h?s_ 'house' + _?ing_ 'assembly'.  Why _?ing_ and not
_?ing_?  Why English "ting" and not _thing_ from Old Norse _?ing_ or
_?ing_ (though ON _?ing_ > Scandinavian *_ting_, and ON *_?ing_ > Sc.
*_ding_)?  Did the Viking invasion not precede the English shift (/uu/ >
/au/) _?_ > _ou_, and would we therefore not have to expect *"house
things"?  I would be more convinced if it said that "hustings" was a
later Scandinavian loan, namely from *_husting_ (< ON _h?s?ing_).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.19 (02) [E]

In Dutch there are "geding"   "bedingen"  "rechtsgeding", so the word
for
thing, the Germanic meeting of the people, isn't gone,  it just got a
narrowed down meaning, all for legal things.

[Wim Verdoold]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 14:43:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:43:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.20 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.074327.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (05) [E/LS]

Hi

More hors words..

Here in salland, we use the word RRRRRR!!   To tell a horse to stop, and
as
I'm told the word came into our dialects with the Russian horses that
were
imported in the last century, is there any treuth to this story??

W!M

wkv at home.nl

Zwolle Netherlands

[Wim Verdoold]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 14:44:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 07:44:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.20 (03) [E]
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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Origins of Anglian-Northumbrian language

Dear all

Ron suggested I ask the list which of the lowland languages was most
closely aligned to Anglian-Northumbrian, i.e. the language spoken in the
North East English counties of Northumberland and Durham (similar to
Scots). I had assumed it was one of the Frisian dialects but this may
not
be the case. History tell us that Northumbrian is supposedly derived
from
language of the Angles. I wonder to which modern language / ethnic group
the Angles are most closely related to on the continent? And from which
part of Low Countries did the Angles come from? There is a debate in my
region over whether the Anglian influence on the Northumbrian language
is
really that strong.
>
Be interested in your thoughts.
>
Kind Regards (Gan Canny),
>
>
Glenn

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 16:17:48 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:17:48 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.091748.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Inquiry

Beste leeglanners,

I have tried to compose a list of words and expressions that might
enable us to see basic similarities and differences between our Lowlands
languages. I deliberately chose words that are both very "universal" but
that could yet at the same time be interesting in order to oppose
certain dialects.
The same 16 expressions have been translated in Dutch, English and
German, as well as in my local Brabantish, more specifically a version
that was spoken in Merchtem during roughly the 20th century.
Sociologically, it could be called "plat-Merchtes" (M).
If only each subscriber would be willing to translate this in his/her
dialect (along the dotted line), I'd be very grateful.
Thanks in advance.

Luc Hellinckx

PS : I used standard Dutch spelling to simulate the sound of (M).
Everybody's free of course to use the spelling he/she knows best. I also
want to apologise for any mistakes I made in the translations.

1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
It was cold this morning (E)
Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
't Was kaat te merreget (M)
.....
2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
Ice, fire and sun (E)
Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
.....
3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
A grey face (E)
Ein graues Gesicht (G)
E graat gezicht (M)
.....
4) Het is zonde ! (D)
It's a sin ! (E)
Es ist (eine) S?nde !(G)
't Es sunne !(M)
.....
5) Volgend jaar (D)
Next year (E)
N?chstes Jahr (G)
't Noste jaar (M)
.....
6) Achter je rug (D)
Behind your back (E)
Hinter deinem R?cken (G)
Achter a rug (M)
.....
7) Vader en moeder (D)
Father and mother (E)
Vater und Mutter (G)
Voor en mojjer (M)
.....
8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
Neben der Toilette (G)
Neuvest 't euske (M)
.....
9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
The door was ajar (E)
Die T?r war angelehnt (?) (G)
De deu stond op een gerre (M)
.....
10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
Three girls and six boys (E)
Drei M?dchen und sechs Jungen (G)
Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
.....
11) Broer en zuster (D)
Brother and sister (E)
Bruder und Schwester (G)
Bruur en zuster (M)
.....
12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
A big house with twelve maids (E)
Ein gro?es Haus mit zw?lf Diensm?dchen (G)
E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
.....
13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
I was the first child (E)
Ich war das erste Kind (G)
Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
.....
14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
The second or the third wife ? (E)
Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
.....
15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
A man and a woman (E)
Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
.....
16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
We went swimming (E)
Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
Me zen weste zweummen (M)
.....

[Luc Hellinckx]

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Expressions

Luc,

Whatever is behind your interesting choice of expressions (immersion in
Thai culture?), below please find the eqivalents in Northern Low Saxon
(Low German), with Dutch-based spelling in paretheses and SAMPA phonetic
rendering (http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm) in square
brackets.

Keep haing a good time in Thailand!

Best regards,
Reinhard/Ron

1)  't Was kalt vunmorgen (~ h??d morgen).
    ('t Was kaalt voenmorgn (~ huud morgn))
    ['vas ka.lt fU.n'mO3`gN= (~ hy:t 'mo3`gN=)]

2)  Ies, F?er (~ F??r) un S?nn
    (Ies, vuur oen zun)
    [?I:s fy:3` ?Un zY.n]

3)  'n gries(et) (~ grau(et)) Gesicht
    ('n griez(et) (~ graau(et)) gezicht)
    [n= 'gri:z(et) (~ gra.U(et)) ge'zIC(t)]

4)  Dat 's ('n) S?nn (~ S?nd)!
    (Dat 's n zun(d)!)
    [dat ?Is (n=) zY.n(d)]

5)  Dat tokamene Jahr
    (Dat toukaomene jaor)
    [dat 'toUkQ:mene (d)jQ:3`]

6)  Achter dien R?gg (~ R?ch)
    (Achter dien rug)
    ['?axt3` di:n 'rYC]

7)  Vadder un Moder
    (Vadder oen mouder)
    ['fad3` ?Un 'moUd3`]

8)  Blang(en) (~ neven) d'n Aftritt (~ dat Paddemang)
    (Blang(n) (~ neevn) n aftrit (~ dat paddemang))
    [bla.N: (~ 'ne:vm=) n= '?aftrIt (~ dat pade'ma.N(k)]

9)  De D??r st?nd 'n (l?tt) beten apen (~ loos).
    (Dei deur stund n (lut) beetn aopn (~ lous).)
    [dEI d9:3` stY.n(d) n= (lYt) 'be:tn= '?Q:pm= (~ lo.Us)]

10) Dree Deerns (~ Dierns) un s?ss Jungs
    (Drei deirns (~ dierns) oen z?s joengs)
    [drE.I dE.I3`ns (~ di:3`ns) ?Un z9s (d)jU.N(k)s]

11) Broder un S?ster
    (brouder oen zuster)
    ['broUd3` ?Un 'zYst3`]

12) (Een ~) 'n groot (~ grotet) Huus mit tw?lf (Deenst-)Deerns
    (~(Deenst-)Dierns)
    ((Ein ~) n grout(et) h??s mit tw?lf (deinst-)deirns
    (~ (deinst-)dierns)
    [(?E.In ~) n= gro.Ut(et) hu:s mIt tv9.lf ('dE.Ins(t))
    dE.I3`ns (~('dE.Ins(t))di:3`ns]

13) Ik was dat eerste Kind.
    (Ik was dat eirste kind.)
    [?Ik was dat '?E.I3`ste kI.nt]

14) De tweede or de d?rde Fru (~ Fro)?
    (Dei tweide or dei d?rde vr?? (~ vroou)?)
    [dEI 'tvE.Ide O3` dEI 'd93`de fru: (~ fro.U)]

15) (Een ~) 'n Mann un (een ~) 'n Fru (~ Fro)
    (Ein ~) n maan oen (ein ~) n vr?? (~ vroou)
    [(EIn ~) n= ma.n ?Un (Ein ~) n= fru: (~ fro.U)]

16) Wi s?nd swimmen (~ sw?mmen ~ swemmen ~ sw?mmen) gahn (~ west).
    [Wie zund swimn (~ swumn ~ swemn ~ sw?mn) gaon (~ west).)
    [vi: zYn(t) svI.m: (~ svY.m: ~ svE.m: ~ sv9.m:) gQ:n (~ vEs(t)]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 16:32:51 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 09:32:51 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.20 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.093251.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Horses

Dear all

Northumbrian words for horses are 'cuddy', which usually refers to
ponies
that were used in mines or to horses that are old (ready for the
'knackers
yard' as we say). Another word is 'gallowah' but I will have to check
the
spelling on that one.

Glenn

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 18:19:43 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:19:43 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.111943.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]

Luc asked to translate some sentences so I translated
them in Zeeuws, more specific the dialect of the isle
of Walcheren, below.

Regards,

Marco

> 1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
> It was cold this morning (E)
> Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
> 't Was kaat te merreget (M)

't Was koud vanmorge

> 2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
> Ice, fire and sun (E)
> Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)

Ies, waeter, vier en zunne

> 3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
> A grey face (E)
> Ein graues Gesicht (G)
> E graat gezicht (M)

Een graeuw wezen

> 4) Het is zonde ! (D)
> It's a sin ! (E)
> Es ist (eine) S?nde !(G)
> 't Es sunne !(M)

't Is zonde!

> 5) Volgend jaar (D)
> Next year (E)
> N?chstes Jahr (G)
> 't Noste jaar (M)

Kommende jaer

> 6) Achter je rug (D)
> Behind your back (E)
> Hinter deinem R?cken (G)
> Achter a rug (M)

Achter je rik (rikke)

> 7) Vader en moeder (D)
> Father and mother (E)
> Vater und Mutter (G)
> Voor en mojjer (M)

Vaoder en moeder

> 8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
> Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
> Neben der Toilette (G)
> Neuvest 't euske (M)

Neffen 't 'uusje ('uusje 'onderd, 't gemak, 't toilet, etc.)

> 9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
> The door was ajar (E)
> Die T?r war angelehnt (?) (G)
> De deu stond op een gerre (M)

De deure stoeng op een garre

> 10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
> Three girls and six boys (E)
> Drei M?dchen und sechs Jungen (G)
> Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)

Drie meissen en zes joengers

> 11) Broer en zuster (D)
> Brother and sister (E)
> Bruder und Schwester (G)
> Bruur en zuster (M)

Broer en zus

> 12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
> A big house with twelve maids (E)
> Ein gro?es Haus mit zw?lf Diensm?dchen (G)
> E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)

Een gro?t 'uus mee twaolf (twelf) meiden

> 13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
> I was the first child (E)
> Ich war das erste Kind (G)
> Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)

Ik was 't e?ste kind

> 14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
> The second or the third wife ? (E)
> Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
> Twurn of terre waef ? (M)

't Twidde of derde wuuf?

> 15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
> A man and a woman (E)
> Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
> Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)

Een vint (kaerel) en een wuuf (vrommes)

> 16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
> We went swimming (E)
> Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
> Me zen weste zweummen (M)

Me ? wiste zwemme

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 18:21:49 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:21:49 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.20 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.112149.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 20.JUN.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Lexicon"

> From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (05) [E/LS]
>
> Hi
>
> More hors words..
>
> Here in salland, we use the word RRRRRR!!   To tell a horse to stop, and

I wasn't brought up with horses, so can't offer my own comments,
but Sir James Wilson in his 1926 book "The Dialects of Central
Scotland" offers the following calls to horses:

"Stop": woa!, staun! or set!

"Go on": chick! or jee-up!

"Come to the left": hee!

"Go to the right": woaback!, huback! or huproond!

"Go back": back!

"Move to the side": bootower! or aboot!

"Come": cope!

"Woa" and "Jee-up" were certainly the calls we used when "playing
horses" as children.

There's a legacy to the era of horse-riding in our locality in the
name of "Hadfast Brae" - so called because it's so steep it was
necessary to "haud fast" (hold tight) when riding down it
("brae" = hillside).

Wilson also lists the following words for telling different
animals to "come":

Cows: pwray, pwroo, pwrooaa or pwray lady (though note that in
      "Betty's Trip tae Edinbury" on ScotsteXt Betty addresses
       a cow with, "Kosh-kosh, Lady".

Pigs: gissay, grumphie or hiskay.

Calves: pree-caufie.

Hens: chookie or tick-tick.

Chickens: chuckie.

Cat: cheetie-pussy  (see on ScotsteXt the nursery rhyme
                     "Cheetie-Poussie Cattie-O").

Rabbits:  maap.

Pigeons: pud.

Dogs: iskay. Also "stee" = "go away".

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 20:57:25 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 13:57:25 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.135725.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Expressions"

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]
>
> Luc asked to translate some sentences so I translated
> them in Zeeuws, more specific the dialect of the isle
> of Walcheren, below.

I'm adding Scots:

1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
It was cold this morning (E)
Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
't Was kaat te merreget (M)
It wis cauld this mornin (S)
.....
2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
Ice, fire and sun (E)
Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
Ice, lowe an sun (S)
.....
3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
A grey face (E)
Ein graues Gesicht (G)
E graat gezicht (M)
A grey face (S)       (but what does this mean?
                       What is a "grey face"?)
.....
4) Het is zonde ! (D)
It's a sin ! (E)
Es ist (eine) Snde !(G)
't Es sunne !(M)
It's a sin ! (S)
.....
5) Volgend jaar (D)
Next year (E)
Nchstes Jahr (G)
't Noste jaar (M)
Nixt year (S)
.....
6) Achter je rug (D)
Behind your back (E)
Hinter deinem Rcken (G)
Achter a rug (M)
Ahint yer back (S)
.....
7) Vader en moeder (D)
Father and mother (E)
Vater und Mutter (G)
Voor en mojjer (M)
Faither an mither (S)
.....
8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
Neben der Toilette (G)
Neuvest 't euske (M)
Aby the bathroom (S)
.....
9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
The door was ajar (E)
Die Tr war angelehnt (?) (G)
De deu stond op een gerre (M)
The door wis ajee (S)
.....
10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
Three girls and six boys (E)
Drei Mdchen und sechs Jungen (G)
Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
Three lassies an sax laddies (S)
.....
11) Broer en zuster (D)
Brother and sister (E)
Bruder und Schwester (G)
Bruur en zuster (M)
Brither an sister (S)
.....
12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
A big house with twelve maids (E)
Ein groes Haus mit zwlf Diensmdchen (G)
E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
A muckle hoose wi twal maids (S)
.....
13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
I was the first child (E)
Ich war das erste Kind (G)
Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
A wis the first bairn (S)
.....
14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
The second or the third wife ? (E)
Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
Yhe saicont or third wife? (S)
.....
15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
A man and a woman (E)
Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
A man an a wumman (S)
.....
16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
We went swimming (E)
Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
Me zen weste zweummen (M)
We wis awa for a soom (S)
.....

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 21:00:36 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:00:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.20 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.140036.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 20.JUN.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.20 (01) [E]

R. F. Hahn wrote:

> But surely, Ed, "hustings" is not English by origin.  Or is it?  If it
> were English I would expect (*_h?s+?ing_ >) *"house thing".  The
> _American Heritage Dictionary_ says that it comes from _h?sting_ < Old
> Norse _h?s?ing_ = _h?s_ 'house' + _?ing_ 'assembly'.  Why _?ing_ and not
> _?ing_?  Why English "ting" and not _thing_ from Old Norse _?ing_ or
> _?ing_ (though ON _?ing_ > Scandinavian *_ting_, and ON *_?ing_ > Sc.
> *_ding_)?  Did the Viking invasion not precede the English shift (/uu/ >
> /au/) _?_ > _ou_, and would we therefore not have to expect *"house
> things"?  I would be more convinced if it said that "hustings" was a
> later Scandinavian loan, namely from *_husting_ (< ON _h?s?ing_).

The Scots is 'thing' (for an object) though the pronounciation can vary
[DIN, DIn, hIn, hIN] Shetland has [tIN].

Andy Eagle

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 20 22:08:33 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:08:33 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.20 (10) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.20.JUN.2002.150833.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Andy Eagle" <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.20 (03) [E]

Glenn Simpson wrote:
> Subject: Origins of Anglian-Northumbrian language
>
> Dear all
>
> Ron suggested I ask the list which of the lowland languages was most
> closely aligned to Anglian-Northumbrian, i.e. the language spoken in the
> North East English counties of Northumberland and Durham (similar to
> Scots). I had assumed it was one of the Frisian dialects but this may
> not
> be the case. History tell us that Northumbrian is supposedly derived
> from
> language of the Angles. I wonder to which modern language / ethnic group
> the Angles are most closely related to on the continent? And from which
> part of Low Countries did the Angles come from? There is a debate in my
> region over whether the Anglian influence on the Northumbrian language
> is
> really that strong.

Surely the most closely related language is Scots?

Taken from http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/whits.htm

"These people were the descendants of the Angles who had settled in the
north of England. The Saxons on the other hand tended to settle in the
south. The (Anglo-Saxon) Dialect spoken by the Angles later became
infused
with a large amount of Norse. This was brought in by Viking incursions
and
settlements in Northumbria. This language called Inglis was spoken
between
the river Humber in the south and the river Forth in the north."

These (Anglos) folk came from around Denmark and the mouth of the River
Elbe / Elve between the 4th and 6th centuries AD.

Also see  http://www.lallans.co.uk/eng.html

The sources are from the Scots point of view but are relevant in that
Scots
and Northumbrian share a common ancestor.

Andy Eagle

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Andy wrote (above):

> These (Anglos) folk came from around Denmark and the mouth of the
> River Elbe / Elve between the 4th and 6th centuries AD.

There is still a region (Low Saxon _Landschupp_, German _Landschaft_
"landscape") called _Angeln_ (= Anglia) in Northern Germany.  Its
boundaries roughly coincide with a triangle at whose points are the
cities Flensborg/Flensburg, Slesvig/Schleswig and Kappeln, which can
also be described as situated between Flensborg/Flensburg (on the Danish
border), River Slie/Schlei and the Baltic Sea coast.  In other words,
Anglia is situated much farther north than the mouth of River
Elv'/Elbe/Laba, which was the home of Saxons and, in at least two
immigration waves along the North Sea coast, Frisians.  My mental
picture has always been that the Jutes (Euts, who came to be concquered
and absorbed by the Danes) lived in the north (today's Jutland,
Denmark), the Angles just south of them (see above), and the Saxons
south of the Angles, gradually spreading southward from Northern Saxony
(North Albingiers north of River Elbe) in a fan-like fashion and
creating various Saxon tribes (Engers south, Westphalians southwest,
Eastphalians southeast, still representing Low Saxon (Low German)
dialect groups, former Engria being a transitional area between the two
"...phalias").  The Angels then came under Saxon domination in the
region Vegria (Wegrien).

More information (in German):
http://www.marschundfoerde.de/artikel/angeln.html
http://www.welt.de/daten/2001/05/11/0511rw252787.htx
http://www.murzi.de/Landschaft_Angeln/landschaft_angeln.html

Also the maps here (in German and Dutch):
http://home.wxs.nl/~marcel.tettero/Sachsen.html
http://www.tpo.de/deutsch/ostfalen.htm

However, lately people have been saying that other tribes, including
Franconian and Rhenish ones, participated in the Germanic colonization
of Britain (assumedly from the Frisian-speaking coast), and most of them
do not mention the Frisians, which seems odd considering that English is
traditionally assigned to an "Anglo-Frisian" sub-branch of West
Germanic, but the Germanic settlers in Britain referred to themselves as
Saxons and Angles.  How can the close relationship between English (and
Scots and Northumbrian) and Frisian be reconciled with the ethnonyms,
and why are Frisians hardly ever mentioned?  Let's be wild and speculate
that those who strongly Frisianized the Early English language were
mostly Frisian women (attached to predominantly male Saxons, Angels and
Jutes en route from their native places to Britain).  Has any of this
ever been explored?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Legends"

>> From: "Wim" <wkv at home.nl>
>> Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.06.19 (05) [E/LS]

>> I'm told the word came into our dialects with the Russian horses that
were
>> imported in the last century, is there any treuth to this story??

There's an interesting Somerset story about an imported horse,
which I've been preparing for web presentation. It's in Somerset
(or "Zummerzet") dialect. I'll just put it here with some of my
notes so you can read it, because I really don't know if I'll
ever find time for non-Scots Web presentations!

Note particularly the use of apparent Americanisms (hoss, fall,
bust, hollied), which actually originated in the South West of
England and probably went over with the Mayflower! Note also
the use of "thee" in all cases, much like American Quakers.

(Notes and glossary:

Zummet, volly (something, follow): note the use of 'z' and
'v' at the beginning of words, where standardised English
would have 's' and 'f'. This tends to occur in words of
Anglo-Saxon derivation, not in words from French or Latin.

A 'ud: 'he would'. Rules for pronouns are complex, but I've
put a summary at the end of the story.

Fall (autumn) is distinguished from 'vall', meaning to topple.

Mid: 'might'
Girt: 'great'.
En: 'him'.
Ben't: 'be not'.
Burches: 'breeches'.
Hoss: 'horse'.
Wold: 'old'.
Handy: 'nearby'.
Midbe: 'maybe'.
Dost zay: 'do you say'.
Sim t' I: 'it seems to me'.
Athirt: 'across'.
Thik: 'this'.
Droo: 'through'.
Skeer-devil: 'a swift'.
Zoo: 'so' (Old Levy's speech is more archaic than the farmer's,
      which is more archaic than the narrator's).
Croopy: 'crouch'.
O'n: 'of him'.
Ben't 'ee?: 'aren't you?'
Wordle: 'world'.
I really sim: 'It really seems to me'.
Ees: 'yes'.
Plimmed: 'swollen'.
Bu'st: 'burst'.
Rafted: 'maddened'.
Shard: 'gap', 'fragment'.
Gie: 'give'.
Vier: 'fire'; midden: 'might not'.
Hollied: 'yelled'.
Stud: 'study' (transitive). Note that deleting a "-y" from the
      end of a verb produces the transitive form.
Hoss-stinger: 'dragonfly'.
Quirk: 'grunt'.
Zwodder: 'dream', 'doze'.
Sprack: 'quick'.
T'othermy: 'the others'.
Fess: 'proud'.
Whicker: 'whinny'.
Capical: 'capital'.
Ba'dy: 'bawdy'.
A-strout: 'outspread'.

And here's the story itself:

THE STORY OF VALL-TEACHER

Co! A terrible one for a horse! I should zay that Farmer Pomeroy is
almost so much tookt up wi' horses as Solomon Viney wi' pigs. In his
younger days there wur no more dare-devil horseman in the country than
Farmer John Pomeroy, and his talent for horses and his knowledge of
horseflesh wur zummet wonderful to behold. Out-and-out the best rider
that did volly either the Cattistock or the Blackmore Vale; there, the
young Farmer wur in a class all to his ownzelf!

Not a horse-zale or fair of any note in the two counties but what Farmer
wur on the spot, most often with a string of horses; and always ready,
het or wet, for a deal or a chop. Bridgwater, Beam'ster, Dorchester,
Pack-Monday, Tor Hill; no matter what the point of the compass, Farmer
could be counted upon to appear for the fair; and if 'twur poorish trade
round-about, so often as not a 'ud strike away into Devon, or Wiltshire,
or even right up into Hampshire, in search o' zummet better.

So 'tis but natural that all sorts of tales should go the rounds about
Farmer and his horses; and one there is that no man can afford to miss.

One fall, a good many year agone, Farmer rode away to Pack-Monday Fair
'pon a smart upstanding bay cob going by the name of Harkaway: rising
three, a wur, so far as I can call to mind, and had a terrible tender
mouth. Trade had been slack for some time a-past, so Farmer vowed and
swore that come what mid, much as a loved the horse, he 'ud chop en away
and come back wi' a fat pocket to boot. So, as you can understand, the
parish wur agog to zee what should come o't.

Farmer started off the minute morning milking wur done, so as to be back
in good time to zee to the cows in the afternoon.

Sure enough, about three o'clock Farmer dashed up through parish 'pon a
girt powerful raw-boned black horse, and drew rein in front of the 'Pure
Drop.' In next to no time, you mid be sure, Farmer had the makings of a
tidy liddle crowd about en.

"A glorious day, my sonnies!" cried Farmer, calling for a drop o't.
"Chopped Harkaway for thease, lookyzee; and drawed-well, I ben't apt to
boast, so I won't zay how much! " And Farmer tapped his burches-pocket.

"Do look a good enough hoss," drawled the wold Levi Viney-father to
Solomon that is now-as a edged up handy to run his eye over'n. "Run a
liddle to bone, midbe."

"Run, dost zay!" said Farmer, looking down from his saddle into their
faces. " Run! I tell 'ee, 'run' is no word for thease hoss! A do sail! A
do vlit droo the air like a very skeer-devil! In fact, the speed o'n is
zummet remarkable.

There, Farmer looked the picture of content, as a took a pull at the
cup.

"Jump, can ur, Farmer? " enquired the wold Levi, not willing to gie in
so easy-like. "Sim t' I, 'tidden much spring about en."

Jump! " cried Farmer, opening his eyes so wide as saucers " Jump, di'st
ray! Co! " He reached down his cup to Levi. Here, hold thease cup."

Farmer gied the horse a liddle "Chik!" touched en with his knee, and in
a flash he wur athirt road and up over the vive-bar gate into Jeremy
Creed's paddock, like a sky-rocket. Once into paddock, Farmer started to
gie a regular exhibition wi' en: lifted en over hedge into Farmer
Tazwell's Ten-acres; rent en all round ground like a streak o' greased
lightning then back over hedge into paddock and dazzed if a didden wind
up by clearing the river into Farmer Perrott's Daisymead, and then back
into paddock! There, everybody did allow 'twur better than any Horse
Show or Point-to-Point that had ever been zeed thik way; and by the time
Farmer wur droo wi' it, most o' the volk in parish wur to be found in
Jeremy Creed's paddock. If Jeremy had only had the wit to charge 'em
zixpence a head gate-money, a 'ud ha' made the price of a tidy calf out
o't.

'Tis a horse from the French war, lookyzee," said Farmer, cantering back
and pulling up among the volk. "In the cavalry, a wur; and if you do
look at his off vore-voot, down handy the fetlock, you'll zee the wale
of a Prussian zword-cut."

Zoo 'tis, souls," said the wold Levi, who wur of a doubting turn o' mind
and croopied down to look. "Dazzed if the man don't speak truth! The
wale is plain for all to zee."

"Thik wale," Farmer went on, "is his onlyblemish, and the hoss is in his
prime. 'Vull o' spirit. Gie en a yew oats, and there'll be no holding
o'n."

There, Farmer had a liddle to zay about thik horse; and by the time a
wur droo wi' his second cup the parish knowed a good deal about en.

But not all. Oh no, not all.

Vall-teacher is the name o'n," said Farmer. "That's what a's called in
his own native tongue. And if a idden a regular skimmer, then dog bite
me! Shot up out o' Sherborne and down over Whitepost Hill without
turning a hair!"

But Farmer's vain-glory wur foreordained to come to a sudden end. There
wur a most curious experience in store for en, if a had but knowed, as a
zot there up in zaddle, spouting to the parish. To put it into a
parable, the train wur there, all ready laid, and only waiting for the
spark. And the spark wur put to the train all through the wold Levi
Viney.

Presently, in the midst of his zong o' praise, Farmer caught sight o'
the wold Levi, staring hard at Vall-teacher's hind legs.

"Well, Levi," he asked, " not satisfied yet? Terrible hard to please,
ben't 'ee?"

"Farmer," said Levi, " 'tis the last thing in the wordle I should wish
to do, to pull another man's hoss to pieces. Midbe I do make a
mistake--'tis to be hoped I do--but I really sim--" The wold Levi stood
back and shut one eye to make sure. "Ees, I really sim thik hoss is just
the leastest bit inclined to be bend-hocked."

Now that roused Farmer, being a kind of reflection on his judgment. So
Farmer got so red as a turkey-cock; plimmed all out like a cat in a
corner; and bu'st off at Levi like a clap o' thunder:

"Bah!" a roared out, so mad as a rafted bull.

Midbe you've noticed that Farmer, in his talk, do stop his shards and
vill out his meanings wi' two words, special to hiszelf: "Pooh!" and
"Bah!" Well, a do use 'em in much the same way as another 'ud use a good
round cuss-word, especially when his feelings be worked up.

So out comes Farmer wi' a "Bah! " that could be heard all up droo
parish. He had it in mind to zay a good deal more-- but Vall-teacher
didden gie en time.

The moment the word wur out of his mouth, the horse valled down like a
stone, zame as if a'd been shot!

Co! Then there wur a tidy upstore! "Run for doctor!" cried one. "Shoot
the hoss!" called another. "Vetch a vet!" hollied a third. And 't wur
told afterwards that one or two did screech out "Vier!" and run for
buckets of water. But that midden he altogether true.

In the thick of it all, the wold Levi stood out and took command.
"Zomebody zit 'pon his head, and keep en down," a said, "while we do
pull Farmer off."

"So the wold Mother Pamela Tucker, the heftiest 'ooman in parish, wur
called upon to quot down 'pon Vall-Teacher's head, while a vew o'm did
help Farmer out.

When they wur satisfied that Farmer wur none the worse for the fall, the
parish formed a ring round the horse, wi' the wold Mother Pamela Tucker
'pen his head, and started to stud out what to do next.

"'Tis a stroke!" said one.

"Or a terrible strong hoss-stinger!" said another.

"'Tis my belief a's witched!" said a third.

And some thought the horse wur dead; although others vowed that when
Mother Tucker plumped down upon en a gied just the leastest sign of a
quirk. So most volk came round to think that 'twur a kind o' zwodder
that had suddenly come over en-- zummet in the line of a fainting-fit,
lookyzee. Then one or two o'm got astride en, and started to rap, and
pinch, and poke; and 'twurden long before all the parish wur doing
zummet or other wi' en.

And the wold horse bode quiet droo it all: didden so much as whisk his
tail.

Then, as luck would have it, the wold Levi broke the spell. "'Tis my
belief," a said, in his slow, drawling way, "that the hoss is
chink-backed."

Now that, when you do come to think it over, wur so good as calling
Farmer a fool, for no man that would go and buy a chink-backed horse
could be much better.

So Farmer went just about mad wi' Levi.

"You girt, dathering, nog-headed gnaw-pwost, you!" blared Farmer, wi' a
voice like a vog-horn. Dost think I can't tell a chink-backed boss when
do zee en!" Farmer shook up his vist at en, and took a deep breath.

"Pooh! " he let out, taking a step towards Levi, "if doessen--"

But Farmer never finished his threat; for no sooner wur thik "Pooh!" out
of his mouth than up sprang Vall-teacher, so sprack and nimble as ever,
sending the wold Mother Pamela Tucker and a regular shower o' t'othermy
vlying off in all directions. Brushed 'em off like a zwarm o' vlies.
Then a gied a liddle whicker, and looked across at Farmer as if he'd
a--done zummet to be terrible fess about.

"Dear me! dear me! What a remarkable occurrence!" came a voice from
behind; and, turning round, the parish zeed that Pa'son had come on the
scene and witnessed the last act o't.

"I hope and trust," said Pa'son, in his mild way, "that no cruelty is
being practised upon this poor animal."

At that, Farmer Pomeroy up and explained the whole matter to Pa'son,
right from the first going-off, and assured en that if any cruelty had
been practised 't had been upon he his ownzelf when his leg wur pinned
to the ground in under the horse.

"What did you state to be the name of this remarkable animal?" asked
Pa'son, when Farmer had done.

"Vall-teacher," said Farmer. "That wur the name the man gied en. 'Tis in
the native tongue of the hoss, to be sure."

"Ah yes," said Pa'son. "Vall-teacher-----Voltizhoor--which signifies,
translated into the English tongue: a leaper, a jumper."

"And a capical name vor'n! " said Farmer, slapping his hand upon his
thigh. "Capical!" he shouted, as all the horse's good points came back
to mind. "Bah!" he bu'st out. "There idden--"

But Farmer's loud boast wur nipped in the bud. Without the ghost of a
warning, Vall-teacher dropped hike stone, and lay like a hog 'pon the
grass.

" Dear me!" said Pa'son, hopping back in a fright. "What a remarkable--I
might indeed say, extraordinary--animal!"

"Ezackly how a wur tookt afore, Pa'son." explained Farmer, wi' the
parish close-handy, looking and listening, all eyes and ears. "Levi
here, see, must needs try to pick a fault in the hoss and say a wur
bend-hocked; and I, a bit rafted-like, as you mid well think, turned to
en and zaid: "Bah! Levi." "Bah! Levi," I zaid, meaning to go on and zay:
"What dost thee know about a hoss!" and midbe a vew more thoughts o' the
zame kind--when, at the very vust word, down goes the hoss like a
stone!"

"Ah!" said Pa'son, pricking up his ears. "You said 'Bah!' and the horse
collapsed?"

"Valled like a stone! Ees, Pa'son."

"Yes, yes," said Pa'son, "the horse fell like a stone. But when did it
fall like a stone? It fell like a stone as you uttered the word 'Bah!':
is that not so?"

"Ees, ees, Pa'son," agreed Farmer, reddening up a liddle. "A harmless
enough word. No harm meaned nor intended by the word, Pa'son. Not a
ba'dy word in any sense of the term. A good, harmless, useful word."

"Quite so," said Pa'son. "But the word, although inoffensive, as you
suggest, possesses a significance-- a meaning--of which you are
unaware."

"Then I shall be glad to apologise, Pa'son," said Farmer, in his manly,
outspoken way. "No harm at all."

But Pa'son had his eyes fixed 'pon the horse. "I am now about to call
upon this animal--known to us under the name of Voltizhoor-to arise,"
said Pa'son, speaking in the calm, level tone a did keep in the ordinary
way for numbers of hymns and notices of mothers' meetings.

Co! At that, the parish stared at Pa'son in just about the same way as
if a'd said a wur going to call for a earthquake or order a
thunderstorm! A whindling liddle thing of a man like that, not able to
tell a back-strap from a blindhalter, to talk about calling upon
Vall-teacher to arise! Why, the man wur a sight wuss off than Balaam!

Pa'son stepped up handy the horse's head, took a goodish breath, and
hollied out one word: "Pooh!"

In a twinkling, wold Vall-teacher hopped up, gied a liddle whicker,
whisked his tail, and cast a pleased look round at the gathering!

"Bah!" screeched out Pa'son; and the horse went down like a house o'
cards, wi' his legs all a-strout.

"Pooh!" Up again, my sonnies, like a Jack-in-the-box!

Well, now, if parish didden begin to think that Pa'son had escaped from
a circus before a joined the Church! Pa'son looked round 'pon 'em all,
his eyes beaming and sparkling through his glasses.

"You observe," he said, "a striking proof of the correctness of my
deductions. The horse is French. It has been in the cavalry. It
collapsed at the command 'Bah!' which translated into our own tongue,
signifies 'Down!'; and at the ejaculation 'Pooh!', meaning 'Up!' or
'Arise!', the animal stood erect. Doubtlessly then, my friends, We see
before us a horse trained in accordance with certain usages of the
French cavalry, to lie down or remain erect at will."

Bezuggers, if Pa'son didden make a name for hiszelf out o' that! Church
packed every Zunday for weeks and weeks afterwards; not a seat to be had
anywhere, so I've heard more than one say. Volk called it a triumph of
scholarship and learning, that Pa'son should be able to stroll along in
his quiet, far-away manner and unmask a trick-horse that had puzzled the
wit of Farmer John Pomeroy and the whole parish to boot.

'Twur all glory for Pa'son, no doubt, but for Farmer John Pomeroy 'twur
liddle short of a misfortune to find that a coulden use his favourite
mild cuss-words--or ejaculations, as Pa'son called 'em--without running
the risk of a sudden upset, wi' his horse 'pon top o'n! Ees, in the end,
Farmer found that either Vall-teacher must go, or he must use
straight-out ba'dy words; and being a mild-mannered man, wi' a careful
upbringing, Farmer zold the horse.

Here's the pronoun table:

                      Subject         Subject       Object
                      statement       question

1st Pers. Sing.       I               I/us          I/us/me

2nd Pers. Sing.       thee            (thee)        thee/ee

3rd Pers. Sing. Masc. he/a            ur            en

3rd Pers. Sing. Fem.  she/ur          she/ur        ur/she

3rd Pers. Sing. Neut. he/she/a/it     en/ur/it      en/ur

1st Pers. Plural      we/us           we/us         we/us

2nd Pers. Plural      you             ee            ee

3rd Pers. Plural      they            em            em

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 21 21:46:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 14:46:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.21 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.144624.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 21.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Administrativa

     (1) New Subscribers
     (2) Rules and Guidelines
     (3) New Team Member

Dear Lowlanders,

(1) NEW SUBSCRIBERS

First of all I would like to welcome those among you who joined us very
recently.  They come from the following places:

   Canada (Toronto, Ontario [2])
   Belgium (Antwerp)
   England (Nottingham, Nottinghamshire; Prudhoe, Northumberland)
   France (Palh?s)
   Hong Kong
   Iran (Tehran)
   Italy (?)
   Moldova (Chishinau)
   Netherlands (Groningen, Groningen; Hoorn, Noord-Holland)
   Scotland (Ayr, Ayrshire)
   South Africa (Barberton, Mpumalanga; Howick, KwaZulu-Natal;
      Wynberg, Cape Town)
   Turkey (Fethiye, Mugla)
   USA (Acampo, California; Des Moines, Iowa; Lexington,
      Massachussetts; New York, New York; North Charleston, South
      Carolina; Seattle, Washington [2]; Waverly, Iowa)

And one person chose not to disclose his location.

(2) RULES AND GUIDELINES

I need to remind everyone that the rules and guideline for subscription
and posting ought to be read by everyone and can be found here:

     http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html

The most common errors in posting submissions are still (1) forgetting
to give one's name, and (2) not crediting those to whom one responds.

Quite a few former subscribers have been rejoining us lately.  Some of
them had been automatically "bumped off" by the server due to repeated
mail bouncing.  Some of them had feared that I had unsubscribed them
because they had been "lurkers," i.e., had not participated in
discussions.  Please keep in mind that I would never do such a thing,
that I value all subscribers equally.  There is no anti-lurking rule.
While I am delighted about participation, I totally respect people's
right and choice not to participate, and I would never want them to feel
forced to participate, nor would I compromise lurkers' privacy by
exposing their identities unless I had their permission.

(3) NEW TEAM MEMBER

I am very happy to announce that Mathieu van Woerkom
(Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl) has joined the Lowlands-L team.  So
far, Sandy Fleming has been taking over the running of the List during
my absence, and Ted Harding and Ian Parsley have been waiting in the
wings just in case neither Sandy nor I can attend to business.

Mathieu will be, actually already has proven to be, an enormous asset to
the team in more ways than one.  He had been very helpful and a driving
force long before he was "instated" officially.  Mathieu has the right
combination of zest and linguistic as well as technical know-how to help
if need be and to take on special projects (as he is right now, as
mentioned under "Resources" to appear shortly).

So, thanks, Mathieu, and thanks, Sandy, Ted and Ian!

Thanks to everyone!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 21 22:58:30 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 15:58:30 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.06.21 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.21.JUN.2002.155830.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 21.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Resources

Dear Lowlanders,

The special project I mentioned today under "Administrativa" in
connection with Mathieu van Woerkom is ... yes, "Project Blurb."
Mathieu has become something of a "blurb meister" in the meantime, and a
darn good one at that.

For those of you who joined us later or do not remember, the plan is to
put short introductory pieces about the various Lowlands language
varieties on the Web.  Mathieu was the first to answer the call by
sending me an introduction to Limburgish in Dutch, English, German and
French, and Gary Taylor was a close second by writing about his native
Estuary English as a "sub-blurb" under "English."

Mathieu has taken over the creation of the blurb pages.  So far I have
seen only the beginning of it, and it promises to be just splendid,
putting me and my little web pages to shame.  You will be pleasantly
surprised when you finally get to see the pages.

At this point I must hand a huge kudos also to Roman Laryushkin.  Roman
has been extremely helpful and supportive with ideas and suggestions and
with Russian and Ukrainian translations.  He has been a real gem.
Thanks, Roman!

I am also involved in "Project Blurb," have been doing some translating
and have been helping to iron out some initial kinks, also have been
converting Roman's Cyrillic text into a format that does not require
most visitors to change their browsers' encoding mode.  I am supposed to
come up with an introductory blurb to Low Saxon (Low German).  Help
would be appreciated.

We really cannot proceed much farther for lack of material.  So I am
appealing to you to consider writing introductory blurbs about your
language varieties, not necessarily your native ones but also non-native
ones with which you are well acquainted.  You could write them singly or
in teams.  If you plan to write one, it might be a good idea to ask
other people in your field if they are planning to write one too, and
you might do something in the way of collaboration.  These main blurbs
do not have to be literary gems, nor do they need to be long.  In fact,
briefer is better.  They should (*briefly*) cover all or most of these
aspects:

   Genealogical classification (language family/group)
   Area (geography)
   History
   Number of speakers (or estimate)
   Status
   Public Services
   Education
   Media (including literature)
   (And any other subject)

Also, I agree with Roman who suggested that we have small language
samples as illustrations.

The plan is that these (brief) main blurbs will appear in these
languages: English, German, Dutch, French, Russian, Ukrainian (just
because of the nature of the team: Mathieu (Nijmegen, Netherlands;
Roman, Simferopol, Ukraine; Ron, Seattle, Washington, originally from
Hamburg, Germany).  I can handle the German and English translations but
would appreciate help, at least input, would not be the least bit
offended if you corrected my compositions or translations.  So, for
these "main blurbs" we need volunteer writers and volunteer
translators.  Especially needed is someone who can proficiently
translate the main blurbs into French.  I would like to add Spanish and
would really appreciate some help with that, at least help with cleaning
up my own far less than perfect Spanish.

So much for the "main blurbs."  Then there are the "sub-blurbs."  These
can be anything in any style, like essays that are linked to from the
main blurbs (like Gary's is from the English blurb).  They may or may
not be translated (though translations would *always* be welcome).  So
here is an opportunity to write little pieces about your local or
favorite dialects or dialect groups, or about any related aspect you
like.  No, they do not have to be deadly serious.  Humor and
lightheartedness are fine as long as they do not render your
descriptions disrespectful.  They do not have to be written in English.
Chances are that someone will be able to translate your blurb, and we
would always post the original version anyway, no matter what language
it is written in.

Please send the texts to me (sassisch at yahoo.com).  I will send them
through the "blurbification" process.

So, huge, big thanks go to Mathieu and Roman, also to all of you who are
willing to help us in some ways, big or small.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 22 20:11:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:11:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.22 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.131119.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sachsen780 at aol.com
Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.06.21 (05) [E]

"He!"

Steve is from Arizona, USA.

[Steve Feld]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 22 20:13:15 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:13:15 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.06.22 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.131315.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.16 (04) [D/E/French]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Help needed
>
> Patricia,
>
> I am not sure anybody is really knows how far back the story of the
> naughty fox goes.  There is also a Middle Low Saxon (Low German)
> version, from the time at which the international Low-Saxon-speaking
> Hanseatic Trading League was at the pinnacle of its power.  The oldest
> surviving edition I am aware of is _Reynke de vos_, printed in L??beck
> (*the* Hanseatic center) in 1498.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Dear Ron,
Speaking of 'Hanseatic' centers...
Brugge (E Bruges) is one of the cultural city's in 2002. I have seen
already
some splendid exhibitions , like the one over the  Flemish primitives
and
Van Eyck. I think there is really one event that can interest the people
of
the 'lowlands' who happen to be in the region.
It is called "Brugge, wisselmarkt van culturen". Brugge was in the 14th
and
15th  century the most cosmopolitical city north of the Alps. It was the
meeting point between the  Nordic Hanzecity's and Southern Europe.And
now
there is an exposition about that history.
You can look for some explination at: HANZE at M???DICI.COM
The exhibition is in three places and around the town: The provincial
house,
the saaihalle (next to  the house of the 'Van der Beurze's' who gave
their
name in many languages for stock-exchange -because they were the first
to do
so- and hof Bladelin ,the former bank of the Medici's. There is also a
exact
copie of a medieval crane.
The exhibition is in cooperation with 'Nordrhein-Westfalen. You can
visit it untill the 8th of september.

Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 22 20:15:02 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:15:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.22 (03) [D/E]
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.131502.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.19 (03) [D/E]

> From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Beste Luc, dear all
>
> As Marco once wrote, the use of the word "Flemish"
> sometimes is very confusing... and i'm sorry, but i
> don't understand very well what you mean by the words
> "Flemish" and (or versus??) "Dutch" in your mail.
Dear Frank,
In the lowlands there were a lot of tribes who were settled some two
millenniums ago.Tacitus mentiones 'Kelten' and 'Germanen'(He mixes them
up a
bit) in Western-Europe, three century's before the big migrations.A few
century's later we speak of 'Franken, Saksen, Friezen, Angelen...'.Dutch
grew as a conglomerate of all these tribe-languages, with the south
regions
(Frisia, later Flanders(that's an other story)) being the
center.Therefore
Flemish is for me the language of the historical Flanders from
'Bonen'(Boulogne-France) to Zeeuws-Vlaanderen. When I look at the
earliest
words i find them much closer related to my Flemish than to Dutch.With
'Vlaams' having so meany meanings it is indeed preferable to call the
language 'Nederfrankisch' or even better 'Noordzeewestgermaans (NWG).
>
> <<<There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's
>
> a big one in a number of volumes).<<<
>
> I meant a contemporary one :).
>
> <<<What we need is an early Dutch (early Flemish)
> dictionnary. You may call it also a Franconian
> dictionnary<<<
>
> Why would we need that? The MNW already exists...
No no no, It does not. I am speaking of a dict. of the early periods,
lets
say from Roman times till 1200! I find it very strange that it doesn't
exist
yet:
-I've been reading  a French etymological dict. and found a lot of
words(+/_400) of  Franconian origin of that early period (or Flemish or
early-Dutch or High & Low German, they mix it a lot without much
specifications). I am convinced that these 'French' words give us the
oldest
words for our NWG.
-Lex Salica(509-511)is written in Latin during the reign of Chlodovech
(Clovis is a later French translation) There are only copies left.
But there are Franconian words and sentences in it to elucidate the
laws.
The most famous word is 'Mallobergo (=maalberg=D: gerechtsplaats)
-Gregorius van Tours (Loire), 6th century,speaks in his famous book over
the
Franks, that he wants to translate his speeches into the language of the
people (theodisc= Diets= early NWG ?)
-Early English and NWG are quiet similar to me. When i look into the
Webster's dict. i discover a lot of times that they can not cope with
the
correct nominating, finding out that this old English is still very much
like my 'modern' Flemish speaking.
> A quote from the digitalized version (*my stresses*):
> "Het elektronische boek dat op de cd-rom met het icoon
> MNW aangeduid wordt, biedt de elektronische versie van
> deel 1 tot 9 van het Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek.
> Deze negen delen bevatten het eigenlijke woordenboek
> en beschrijven *grosso modo* de woordenschat van het
> Nederlands uit de periode *1200-1500*, zoals het
> gebruikt werd in de gebieden die *grotendeels*
> samenvallen met het huidige Nederland en Vlaanderen.
> Elke betekenis en elke betekenisnuance wordt steeds
> ge?llustreerd met ??n of meer citaten uit de
> Middelnederlandse teksten die door de samenstellers
> van het MNW als bron voor het woordenboek geselecteerd
> werden."
>
> What do you mean by "early Dutch" and "early Flemish"
> and how do you distinguish between them, on which
> linguistic and or historical grounds?
> Why would we need a Franconian dictionary and how do
> you see the relation between Franconian and what you
> call "early Dutch" and (versus?) "early Flemish"?
>
> <<<Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'?
> Scientists say it is in Middle High German, but for me
> it could also be a Flemish variant because I can still
> read it (without having had any instructions around
> that subject)!<<<
>
> "Ludwigslied" (+/- 882) is written in OLD High German
My mistake, of corse 'OLD'!
> (Rein Franconian). There are some very good reasons
> for *linguists* to call it "Old" and "High German",
> but these criteria (the most important one being the
> second or High German sound shift) of course have
> nothing to do with you understanding the text.
> You're right in a certain way, in the same way a
> German could say that Old or Middle Dutch reminds
> him/her of a German variant.
This sound shift is a very significant one. But is the sentence
structure
not as much important?
By the way, i think imho that Europe was populated with all kinds of
different tribes who lived close to one another without mixing very
often
(thus the meany different names). Perhaps they had their specific
languagerules also. High and low German will have exist next to one
another.
Some rules are very strict. One of the caracteristics of the early Dutch
language is that the last vowel became a sjwa. But those changes, after
hundreds of years, are not yet finished! In Flanders we still say
something
between the two: Vaodre-vaodri (E Father) beste-besta (E best)
sterke-sterka
(E Strong) rike-rika (E rich).
"Ludwigslied" should be mentioned as early High German but also as NWG
or
early Dutch. This is also right for "Hildebrandslied-Gudrun-Van
Veldeke's
books-and even Beowulf being Old English or Old NWG.
>
> <<<dialects?? Languages you mean! Flemish was the
> cultural language, and a big part of the early Dutch
> arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
> standard language afterwards.<<<
>
> No, i meant "dialects" :). Without wanting to
> (re)start a discussion about the terms "dialect" and
> "language", which imho is a pseudo problem anyway, i
> just meant something as "language variant" without any
> social, attitudinal or cultural evaluation.
> But again, i find it very difficult to understand what
> you mean by "Flemish" and "early Dutch". Could you
> please explain a bit further.
For meany people 'dialect' is something pejoratif. Only the official
languages are 'correct' for them. That's why we (lost)loose  so many
'dialects' in the 20th and 21th century's.I know meany Flemish families
who
do not want to talk Flemish anymore.
>
> <<<In West Flanders we...<<<
>
> Luc Vanbrabant??? What's in a name? ;):))
Brabant was a very common name, not only in Brabant itself. It just
means
'broekband' or the border near the brook (marsh).

Misschien was ik al iets duidelijker, maar stof voor discussie is er
zeker
nog genoeg.Wat ik schreef zijn vooral persoonlijke gedachtespinsels,
gebaseerd op historische zaken maar eigenzinnig benaderd,zeker geen
evangelie!

Groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant ;)
Oekene

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 22 20:29:53 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 13:29:53 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.22 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.22.JUN.2002.132953.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
 Posting Address: <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" <Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>
Subject: Expressions

Luc Hellinckx asked for translations of 16 sentences, here they are for
Limburgish (L)

1)
Het was koud deze morgen (D)
It was cold this morning (E)
Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
't Was kaat te merreget (M)
't Was koud vanmorge (Z)
It wis cauld this mornin (S)

't waor kaud huujm?rge (L)

.....
2)
IJs, water, vuur en zon (D)
Ice, water, fire and sun (E)
Eis, Wasser, Feuer und Sonne (G)
Ies, waeter, vier en zunne (Z)
Ice, lowe an sun (S)

Ies, water, vuur en z?n (L)

.....
3)
Een grauw gelaat (D)
A grey face (E)
Ein graues Gesicht (G)
E graat gezicht (M)
Een graeuw wezen (Z)
A grey face (S)

E grauw/krauw/bleitsetig gezich (L)

.....
4)
Het is zonde ! (D)
It's a sin ! (E)
Es ist (eine) S?nde !(G)
't Es sunne !(M)
't Is zonde! (Z)
It's a sin ! (S)

't is zunj! (L)

.....
5)
Volgend jaar (D)
Next year (E)
N?chstes Jahr (G)
't Noste jaar (M)
Kommende jaer (Z)
Nixt year (S)

volgenden/naeksten jaor (L)

.....
6)
Achter je rug (D)
Behind your back (E)
Hinter deinem R?cken (G)
Achter a rug (M)
Achter je rik (rikke) (Z)
Ahint yer back (S)

Achter diene r?k (L)

.....
7)
Vader en moeder (D)
Father and mother (E)
Vater und Mutter (G)
Voor en mojjer (M)
Vaoder en moeder (Z)
Faither an mither (S)

Vajer en mojer / pap en mam (L)

.....
8)
Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
Neben der Toilette (G)
Neuvest 't euske (M)
Neffen 't 'uusje ('onderd, 't gemak, 't toilet, etc.) (Z)
Aby the bathroom (S)

Naeve 't prevaat/twal?t/gemaak (L)

.....
9)
De deur stond op een kier (D)
The door was ajar (E)
Die T?r war angelehnt (?) (G)
De deu stond op een gerre (M)
De deure stoeng op een garre (Z)
The door wis ajee (S)

De deur sjt?ng op e keerke (L)

.....
10)
Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
Three girls and six boys (E)
Drei M?dchen und sechs Jungen (G)
Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
Drie meissen en zes joengers (Z)
Three lassies an sax laddies (S)

Drei maetskes en z?s j?nges (L)

.....
11)
Broer en zuster (D)
Brother and sister (E)
Bruder und Schwester (G)
Bruur en zuster (M)
Broer en zus (Z)
Brither an sister (S)

Broor en z?ster (L)

.....
12)
Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
A big house with twelve maids (E)
Ein gro?es Haus mit zw?lf Diensm?dchen (G)
E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
Een gro?t 'uus mee twaolf (twelf) meiden (Z)
A muckle hoose wi twal maids (S)

E groet hoes mit twelf deensmaeg/d?rpelmaeg (L)

.....
13)
Ik was het eerste kind (D)
I was the first child (E)
Ich war das erste Kind (G)
Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
Ik was 't e?ste kind (Z)
A wis the first bairn (S)

Ich waor 't ie(?/r)ste k?ndj (L)

.....
14)
De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
The second or the third wife ? (E)
Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
't Twidde of derde wuuf? (Z)
The saicont or third wife? (S)

't twiede of 't driede vroumes? (L)

.....
15)
Een man en een vrouw (D)
A man and a woman (E)
Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
Een vint (kaerel) en een wuuf (vrommes) (Z)
A man an a wumman (S)

Eine/'ne man en ei/e vroumes (L)

.....
16)
We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
We went swimming (E)
Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
Me zen weste zweummen (M)
Me ? wiste zwemme (Z)
We wis awa for a soom (S)

Veer zeen zjw?mme gegange (L)

.....

Regards,
Mathieu van Woerkom

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (06) [E]

> From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
> Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]
>
> Luc asked to translate some sentences so I translated
> them in Zeeuws, more specific the dialect of the isle
> of Walcheren, below.
>
> Regards,
>
> Marco

Hello,
These are the West-Flemish variants:

>> 1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
>> It was cold this morning (E)
>> Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
>> 't Was kaat te merreget (M)
>
> 't Was koud vanmorge
't Was koud vannuchtend (FL)
>
>> 2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
>> Ice, fire and sun (E)
>> Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
>
> Ies, waeter, vier en zunne
Is, waotre, vier en zunne (FL)
>
>> 3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
>> A grey face (E)
>> Ein graues Gesicht (G)
>> E graat gezicht (M)
>
> Een graeuw wezen
een grouw wezen (aonzichte)(FL)
>
>> 4) Het is zonde ! (D)
>> It's a sin ! (E)
>> Es ist (eine) S?nde !(G)
>> 't Es sunne !(M)
>
> 't Is zonde!
't Is zonde ! (FL)
>
>> 5) Volgend jaar (D)
>> Next year (E)
>> N?chstes Jahr (G)
>> 't Noste jaar (M)
>
> Kommende jaer
't Naoste jaore (FL)
>
>> 6) Achter je rug (D)
>> Behind your back (E)
>> Hinter deinem R?cken (G)
>> Achter a rug (M)
>
> Achter je rik (rikke)
bachten (achter) je rugge (rik) (FL)
>
>> 7) Vader en moeder (D)
>> Father and mother (E)
>> Vater und Mutter (G)
>> Voor en mojjer (M)
>
> Vaoder en moeder
vaodre en moedre (FL)
>
>> 8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
>> Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
>> Neben der Toilette (G)
>> Neuvest 't euske (M)
>
> Neffen 't 'uusje ('uusje 'onderd, 't gemak, 't toilet, etc.)
neffenst 't useke (de W.C. , 't gemak) (FL)
>
>> 9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
>> The door was ajar (E)
>> Die T?r war angelehnt (?) (G)
>> De deu stond op een gerre (M)
>
> De deure stoeng op een garre
De deure stond up e gerre (FL)
>
>> 10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
>> Three girls and six boys (E)
>> Drei M?dchen und sechs Jungen (G)
>> Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
>
> Drie meissen en zes joengers
Drie meiskes en zes joengs (drie meisjoengs en zes knechtjoengs) (FL)
>
>> 11) Broer en zuster (D)
>> Brother and sister (E)
>> Bruder und Schwester (G)
>> Bruur en zuster (M)
>
> Broer en zus
broere en zustre (FL)
>
>> 12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
>> A big house with twelve maids (E)
>> Ein gro?es Haus mit zw?lf Diensm?dchen (G)
>> E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
>
> Een gro?t 'uus mee twaolf (twelf) meiden
Een gro?t uus me twaolf maarten (FL)
>
>> 13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
>> I was the first child (E)
>> Ich war das erste Kind (G)
>> Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
>
> Ik was 't e?ste kind
'k Was 't e?ste kind (FL)
>
>> 14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
>> The second or the third wife ? (E)
>> Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
>> Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
>
> 't Twidde of derde wuuf?
't twide of 't derde wuf (de twidde of derde vrouwe) (FL)
>
>> 15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
>> A man and a woman (E)
>> Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
>> Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
>
> Een vint (kaerel) en een wuuf (vrommes)
ne vint en e vroemins (vrouwmens) (e man en e vrouwe) (FL)
>
>> 16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
>> We went swimming (E)
>> Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
>> Me zen weste zweummen (M)
>
> Me ? wiste zwemme
Me zin gaon zwemm' (M'ein gaon zwemm')(Me zin wist gaon zwemm')(FL)

Groeten
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: expressions

I will add Northumbrian to this 'interesting' list -

1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
It was cold this morning (E)
Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
't Was kaat te merreget (M)
It wis cauld this mornin (S)

I'd wes caad (or cowld) this-mornin (N)

2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
Ice, fire and sun (E)
Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
Ice, lowe an sun (S)

Ice, fiyah, end surn (N)

3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
A grey face (E)
Ein graues Gesicht (G)
E graat gezicht (M)
A grey face (S)       (but what does this mean?
                       What is a "grey face"?)

Aa greye fyace (n)

4) Het is zonde ! (D)
It's a sin ! (E)
Es ist (eine) Snde !(G)
't Es sunne !(M)
It's a sin ! (S)

Id's a sin! (N)

5) Volgend jaar (D)
Next year (E)
Nchstes Jahr (G)
't Noste jaar (M)
Nixt year (S)

Next yeor (N)

6) Achter je rug (D)
Behind your back (E)
Hinter deinem Rcken (G)
Achter a rug (M)
Ahint yer back (S)

Ahind ya back (N)

7) Vader en moeder (D)
Father and mother (E)
Vater und Mutter (G)
Voor en mojjer (M)
Faither an mither (S)

Faatha an mutha (N)

8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
Neben der Toilette (G)
Neuvest 't euske (M)
Aby the bathroom (S)

Next tu thi netty (N)

9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
The door was ajar (E)
Die Tr war angelehnt (?) (G)
De deu stond op een gerre (M)
The door wis ajee (S)

Thi door wes ajar (n)

10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
Three girls and six boys (E)
Drei Mdchen und sechs Jungen (G)
Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)
Three lassies an sax laddies (S)

Three gorls an six lairds (N)

11) Broer en zuster (D)
Brother and sister (E)
Bruder und Schwester (G)
Bruur en zuster (M)
Brither an sister (S)

Brutha an sistah (N)

12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
A big house with twelve maids (E)
Ein groes Haus mit zwlf Diensmdchen (G)
E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
A muckle hoose wi twal maids (S)

Aa greet (or muckle) hoose wi twelve maids (N)

13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
I was the first child (E)
Ich war das erste Kind (G)
Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
A wis the first bairn (S)

Aa wes thi forst bairn (or kiddah) (N)

14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
The second or the third wife ? (E)
Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
Yhe saicont or third wife? (S)

Thi secund o' thi thord wife? (N)

15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
A man and a woman (E)
Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
A man an a wumman (S)

Aa man an aa womin (N)

16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
We went swimming (E)
Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
Me zen weste zweummen (M)
We wis awa for a soom (S)

We went swimmin (N)

Gan Canny

Glenn Simpson

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 23 19:28:58 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 12:28:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.23 (01) [F/E]
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.122858.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.20 (04) [E]

> From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
> Subject: Inquiry
>
> Beste leeglanners,
>
> I have tried to compose a list of words and expressions that might
> enable us to see basic similarities and differences between our Lowlands
> languages. I deliberately chose words that are both very "universal" but
> that could yet at the same time be interesting in order to oppose
> certain dialects.
> The same 16 expressions have been translated in Dutch, English and
> German, as well as in my local Brabantish, more specifically a version
> that was spoken in Merchtem during roughly the 20th century.
> Sociologically, it could be called "plat-Merchtes" (M).
> If only each subscriber would be willing to translate this in his/her
> dialect (along the dotted line), I'd be very grateful.
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Luc Hellinckx

In tafoeging yn Westerlauwersk Frysk, sa folle moolk
"standertfrysk". Der moat fansels keazen wurde by dit soarte fan listkes
(hokker fariant ast nimst), miskien dat oare Friezen oare farianten
keazen
hiene,
ik sil sa u't en troch sels farianten jaan dy't ek moolk binne..

> 1) Het was koud deze morgen (D)
> It was cold this morning (E)
> Es war kalt heute morgen (G)
> 't Was kaat te merreget (M)
> .....
It wie ka^ld fan 'e moarn. (WF)  [a^ = a with a circonflex accent on
top..]

> 2) Ijs, vuur en zon (D)
> Ice, fire and sun (E)
> Eis, Feuer und Sonne (G)
> ..
Iis, fjoer en sinne.   (WF)
...
> 3) Een grauw gelaat (D)
> A grey face (E)
> Ein graues Gesicht (G)
> E graat gezicht (M)
> .....

In skier/grau oantlit/we^zen. (WF)

> 4) Het is zonde ! (D)
> It's a sin ! (E)
> Es ist (eine) S?nde !(G)
> 't Es sunne !(M)
> .....
It is skande! (WF)


> 5) Volgend jaar (D)
> Next year (E)
> N?chstes Jahr (G)
> 't Noste jaar (M)
> .
oar jier/ takom jier (WF)

....
> 6) Achter je rug (D)
> Behind your back (E)
> Hinter deinem R?cken (G)
> Achter a rug (M)
> .
Efter dyn re^ch/ re^ge. (WF)

....
> 7) Vader en moeder (D)
> Father and mother (E)
> Vater und Mutter (G)
> Voor en mojjer (M)
> .....

Heit en mem (WF)

> 8) Naast het huisje (=toilet) (D)
> Next to the toilet (Am. bathroom/restroom) (E)
> Neben der Toilette (G)
> Neuvest 't euske (M)

Ne^st / neist it hu'ske (WF)
[u' = u with accent to the right, sounds here as [y])

> .....
> 9) De deur stond op een kier (D)
> The door was ajar (E)
> Die T?r war angelehnt (?) (G)
> De deu stond op een gerre (M)
> .
De doar stie yn 't tsier  (WF)

....
> 10) Drie meisjes en zes jongens (D)
> Three girls and six boys (E)
> Drei M?dchen und sechs Jungen (G)
> Draa maskes en zes joenges (M)

Trije famkes en seis jonges  (WF)

> .....
> 11) Broer en zuster (D)
> Brother and sister (E)
> Bruder und Schwester (G)
> Bruur en zuster (M)

Broer en suster (WF)

> .....
> 12) Een groot huis met twaalf meiden (D)
> A big house with twelve maids (E)
> Ein gro?es Haus mit zw?lf Diensm?dchen (G)
> E groeet oes me tweullef maases (M)
>
In grut hu^s mei tolve (tsjinst)fammen (WF)

 .....
> 13) Ik was het eerste kind (D)
> I was the first child (E)
> Ich war das erste Kind (G)
> Ik waar 't ieste kind (M)
> .....
Ik wie it earste bern (WF)

> 14) De tweede of de derde vrouw ? (D)
> The second or the third wife ? (E)
> Die zweite oder die dritte Frau ? (G)
> Twurn of terre waef ? (M)
> ..
It twadde of tredde wiif?
[now less common, or:]
De twadde of tredde frou? (WF)

...
> 15) Een man en een vrouw (D)
> A man and a woman (E)
> Ein Mann und eine Frau (G)
> Ne mansmins en e vraamins (M)
>
In man en in frou/frommiske (WF)
 .....
> 16) We zijn gaan zwemmen (D)
> We went swimming (E)
> Wir sind schwimmen gegangen (G)
> Me zen weste zweummen (M)
> .
Wy hawwe te swimmen west  (WF)

Henno Brandsma
....

----------

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject:

Beste leeglanners,

First of all I would like to sincerely thank everybody who sent his/her
translation of my list...the response has been very, very nice so far !
Keep it going folks ! I'll add a detailed reason later on, about how and
why this list was created...
Oh yes, "a grey face" is actually the face of a person with skin that is
not looking very pale *s*...people who are a little sick sometimes have
such a face. Or also people who are old and have strong beard-growth. It
also helps if you spent a lot of time out in the sun during your
lifetime I guess. I might be wrong but I also think Jewish people often
have skin that is looking pretty "grey"...
In another context, the same Dutch word "grauw" is often used in
connotation with clouds and the weather when there's little light.
There's unfortunately also an expression like : "Ik heb hem grauw en
blauw geslagen", which means "That you have hit him so badly that he
turned blue and 'grey'"
That's it for now (I have to spend my internet-time carefully on this
island where there's only a satellite-phone connection with the mainland
*s*).
Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Expressions

Luc,

Although I did not say anything at the time and literally translated
what you gave us, I was as bewildered by "grey face" as Sandy was.  So
thanks for your explanation.

I don't think that "grey" (~ "gray") would be the appropriate
translation in either case.  I suppose that, seen from a Germanocentric
point of view, people in, say, Mediterranian areas, are usually said to
have "olive skin/complexion."  As for the complexion of ill or elderly
people, perhaps "ashen" comes closer to what you mean, which allows
somewhat for natural shades (i.e., it could be "ashen" in various
shades), and might be considered the opposite of "radiant [= healthy]
(skin/complexion)".  These are just my suggestions.  In German it may be
_dunkelh?utig_ (which could be *any* shade darker than "white") and
_(asch)fahl_ ~ _aschgrau_ respectively.  In Low Saxon you may get away
with _gries_ ~ _grau_ ("gray") within clearly defined contexts, though I
am not sure.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 23 21:54:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 14:54:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.23 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.145414.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Expressions"

> From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
> Subject:
>
> Oh yes, "a grey face" is actually the face of a person with skin that is
> not looking very pale *s*...people who are a little sick sometimes have
> such a face. Or also people who are old and have strong beard-growth. It
> also helps if you spent a lot of time out in the sun during your
> lifetime I guess. I might be wrong but I also think Jewish people often
> have skin that is looking pretty "grey"...

So in English this would be "An ashen face", as Ron suggested.

In Scots it would be "A fauchie face".

"Fauchie" describes a washed-out pale-looking grey or yellow
colouration.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 23 23:00:20 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 16:00:20 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.23 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.160020.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Lowlanders,

Some of you may be interested to know that the Institut f?r
Niederdeutsche Sprache (Institute for Low German Language) now has a
(German-language) bibliography online:
http://www.is-bremen.de/vns/ndb.htm

The bibliography is "Low German" (_Niederdeutsch_) in the sense of
traditional linguistic classification, covering both Low Franconian
(i.e, _Niederl?ndisch_ "Dutch," "Netherlandic") and Low Saxon (i.e.,
_Niederdeutsch_) ... or ... almost so.  Let's take a closer look!

As you can see, we got ourselves into a bit of a muddle here.

To start with, while all areas of (Low(lands)) Saxon are covered,
neither Modern Dutch nor Old Franconian are covered, _Niederl?ndisch_
being limited to _Mittelniederl?ndisch_ ("Middle Netherlandic/Dutch")
and, peculiarly, _Ostneuniederl?ndisch_ "Eastern Modern Netherlandic"
... Why?  And what on earth is _Ostneuniederl?ndisch_ supposed to refer
to?  Could it be ... No! ... a quasi-admission that
_Ostneuniederl?ndisch_ is a part of what I and others call "Low Saxon"
(or better "Lowlands Saxon," to follow Sandy Fleming's suggestion),
ideally just "(Modern) Saxon", a cross-border connection hitherto
studiously avoided in the INS's publications?

But wait!  There's more!  We find two categories: "Ostneuniederl?ndisch"
and "Ostniederl?ndisch/Nedersaksisch"!  All right!  So, what's the
difference between the two?  Let's take a look at the respective
bibliographic lists.  Hmmm ... Both of them contain references to works
on Low Saxon of Drenthe, Gelderland, Twente, Groningen, ... in short,
the "Saxon varieties of Netherlandic," the ones some claim are related
to "Low German" or ... Heaven forbid! ... part of the same language.
What's the difference between the two categories?  None, as far as I can
tell.

So, again we see Dutch (!) _Nedersaksisch_ used instead of German
_Nieders?chsisch_.  Assumedly, this is to avoid misunderstandings.
_Niedersachsen_ refers to the German state of Lower Saxony, and most
uninitiated German readers might think it is confined to that state.
_S?chsisch_ ("Saxon") does not seem to be considered an option because
it refers to the "Middle"- and "High"-German-speaking (i.e., non-Saxon)
German state of _Sachsen_ (Saxony) that acquired its name because it had
at one time been given to a prince of (real, Saxon-speaking) Saxony.
(You see, we North Germans are widely considered to have too low an
average intelligence quotient to deal with changes and distinctions
regarding names and orthography the way the select degreed few are able
to.)  Yes, what a muddle, what a mess we got ourselves into during
centuries of trying to change people's perceptions for the sake of
nationhood!

But let's look on the bright side: it could be seen as progress, a half
full glass, that there is any mention at all to this
"Ostniederl?ndisch/Nedersaksisch," whose eastern borderline just happens
to coincide *exactly* with the northern part of the Netherlands-German
border.

Will we dare to take another step or two in this direction?  Will we
dare to go as far as thinking about creating a common orthographic
system that would facilitate reading comprehension across the now all
but invisible political border?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 24 03:36:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 20:36:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.23 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <SUN.23.JUN.2002.203627.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.23 (02) [E]

on 24/6/02 7:54, Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] wrote:-
> Subject: "Expressions"
>
> So in English this would be "An ashen face", as Ron suggested.
>
> In Scots it would be "A fauchie face".
>
> "Fauchie" describes a washed-out pale-looking grey or yellow
> colouration.

In the Edinburgh area I am sure they still refer to such a complexion as
'Peelie Wahlie'. Thanks for reminding me of this Sandy.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."

>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 24 22:41:26 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 15:41:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.154126.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: I cannae git it richt!

Greetings,

could any of you help me out with a - possibly slightly humorous - Scots
translation of "Yes, that's what I have always said" or "Yes, that's
what
I've said all along"? I am translating something into English where one
person says this in broad Bavarian, and so I think broad Scots would be
a
guid equivalent. I would give it a try myself, but I'm not sure how
"authentic" I can make it.

Thanks very much!
Gabriele Kahn

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 04:43:57 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 21:43:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]
Message-ID: <MON.24.JUN.2002.214357.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Help needed"

> From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
> Subject: I cannae git it richt!
>
> Greetings,
>
> could any of you help me out with a - possibly slightly humorous - Scots
> translation of "Yes, that's what I have always said" or "Yes, that's
> what
> I've said all along"? I am translating something into English where one

A straightforward translation would be:

"Ay, that's what A'v aye sayed."

A slightly humorous translation:

"Ay, like A'v no sayed that afore."

This second one means, "Yes, as if I haven't said that
before".

For a slightly less grammatical feel, "sayed" could be
replaced with "says" in both cases.

Or you could resort to irony:

"Div ye tell me that?"

But, being irony, the meaning may not come through clearly in print.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Help needed

[English below]

Liebe Lowlanders,
   Wie Ihr wisst, arbeiten wir momentan an kurzen Enf?hrungen in die
"Lowlands-Sprachen" (unter dem Titel "Lowlands Talk"). Es sollen auch
kurze Sprachproben dabei sein. F?r die verschiedenen nordfriesischen
Sprachvarianten stehen gl?cklicherweise kurze, eins?tzige Proben bereit,
die das Nordfriisk Instituut (Nordfriesische Institut,
http://www.nordfriiskinstituut.de/) online ausstellt, und zwar aus
Theodor Storms Kinderbuch _H?welmann_ (*siehe Links unten). Ich w?rde
gern auch saterfriesische und westerlauwer-friesische ?bersetzungen
hinzuf?gen.
Stehen diese bereits zur Verf?gung? Auf jeden Fall w?re ich Euch ganz
besonders dankbar, wenn Ihr mir die entsprechenden ?bersetzungen
zuschicken w?rdet (sassisch at yahoo.com). Es w?re nat?rlich auch sch?n,
wenn wir davon auch ?bersetzungen in die anderen
Lowlands-Sprachvarianten h?tten. Falls Ihr den Namen _H?welmann_ nicht
?bernehmen wollt, bedenkt bitte beim ?bersetzen, dass _H?welmann_
(_Hevelmann_) -- hier der Name eines ungeduldigen, nie zufriedenen
Jungen -- auf Nieders?chsisch (Niederdeutsch) so etwas wie
"entz?ckender, kleiner Junge/Liebling" bedeutet (von _h?weln_ ~ _heveln_
'(ein Baby oder Kleinkind) verh?tscheln und mit Spielen unterhalten').
Bitte bedenkt auch, dass dies nicht die einzigen Sprachproben sein
werden, und dass wir uns freuen w?rden, wenn Ihr uns auch andere *kurze*
Sprachproben zuschicken w?rdet.
   Unten findet Ihr die nordfriesischen Fassungen, nebst der deutschen
Originalfassung und meinen ?bersetzungen ins Nordnieders?chsische und
Englische, auch Vorschl?ge, die Hilfe ben?tigen.
   Ich m?chte Euch auch noch daran erinnern, dass wir noch nach
Freiwilligen f?r die franz?sischen und m?glicherweise spanischen
Fassungen dieser *kurzen* Einf?hrungen suchen.
   Herzlichen Dank!
   Reinhard/Ron

***

Dear Lowlanders,
   As you know, we are currently working on brief introductions to the
"Lowlands" languages (under the title "Lowlands Talk"). We will add
small language samples. Fortunately, there are small North Frisian
samples already, supplied online by the Nordfriisk Instituut (North
Frisian Institute, http://www.nordfriiskinstituut.de/), taken from
Theodor Storm's _H?welmann_. I would love to add Sater Frisian and
Westerlauwer Frisian versions. Do such translations already exist? In
any case, I would be most grateful to you for sending me translations of
this passage, also in other Lowlands variants. If you wish to substitute
for rather than adopt the name _H?welmann_, please bear in mind that
_H?welmann_ (_Hevelmann_) -- here the name of an impatient, never
satisfied boy -- means something like 'cute, little darling boy' (from
Low Saxon (Low German) _h?weln_ ~ _heveln_ 'to pamper and entertain (a
small child)'). Apparently, there is an English translation entitled
_Little Hobbin_, but I have not seen it.
   Please also bear in mind that these will not be the only samples,
that we would be delighted to receive other *brief* samples in various
Lowlandic varieties.
   You will find the North Frisian versions below, along with the German
original and my Northern Low Saxon and English translations, plus some
drafts that need help.
   I would also like to remind you that we are still seeking volunteers
who would create French and hopefully also Spanish versions of these
*brief* introductions.
   Many thanks!
   Reinhard/Ron

* http://www.babsies.de/maerchenland/haewelmann.html

***

German (original?):
"Leuchte, alter Mond, leuchte!" schrie H?welmann, aber der Mond war
nirgends zu sehen und auch die Sterne nicht; sie waren alle schon zu
Bett gegangen.
(Theodor Storm: _H?welmann_)

Mainland North Frisian of Hoorning (Goesharde):
"Jocht, uule moune, jocht!" biilked H??welmoon, ors e moune waas n?rngs
to sch?ns ?n da steere ok ai; ja weern al aal to beede gingen.

Mainland North Frisian of B?kingharde:
"Jucht, ??lje moune, jucht!" biiljked H??welmoon, ouers e moune wus
nargne tu sch?ns ?n e st??re uk ai; ja wjarn ?l ?ltum??le tu beed lim.

Mainland North Frisian of Wiedingharde:
"Ljocht, uuile moone, ljocht!" biilked H??welmuon, m?n e moone was
n??rgen to sch?ns ?n uk e steere ai; j? w?rn al altomoale to beerd
gingen.

North Frisian of the Tideland Islands (_Halligen_):
"Jaacht, uale m??ne, jaacht!" b?lked H??welmoon, man de m??ne woas
n??rngs to siinen ?n de steere uk ee; j? weern al altomaole to beed
giangen.

Insular North Frisian of Heligoland:
"Lochte, ool Muun, lochte!" r?p He?welman, oawers de Muun wear naarni tu
sin'n en uk de Steern ni; dja wear al allemoal tu Baad gingen.

Insular North Frisian of Amrum:
"Locht, d? ual muun, locht!" rep Heewelmaan, man a muun wiar nochhuaren
tu sen an a st??ren uk ei; jo wiar al altumaal tu baad gingen.

Insular North Frisian of F?hr:
"Locht, ual muun, locht!" rep Heewelmaan, man a muun wiar nochhuaren tu
sen an a st??ren uk ei; jo wiar al altermaal tu baad gingen.

Insular North Frisian of Sylt:
"Ljucht, ual Muun, ljucht!" skriilt H?welmann, man di Muun wiar narigen
t? sen en uk di Stiaren ek; ja wiar al altermaal t? Ber gingen.

***

Meine ?bersetzungen | My Translations:

Northern Low Saxon (Low German):
"L?cht, ole Maand, l?cht!" schreeg' H?welmann, man de Maand was narms to
sehn un ook de Steerns nich; se weern al alltohoop na'n Bedd gahn.

Tentative:

Westerlauwersk Frysk (Help!):
"Lykje, ?lde moane, lykje!" skreaude {H?welmann}, mar de moane wie
nearne ta sjen, ek e stjerren net; hja binne al alegeare ta b?d gongen.

Dutch (Help!):
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuw {H?welmann}, maar de maan was
nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al alle te bed gegaan.

Afrikaans (Help!):
"Skyn, ou maan, skyn!" skreeu {H?welmann}, maar die maan was n?rens te
sien nie, ook nie die sterre nie; hulle was al algar te bed gegaan.

Scots (Help!):
"Sheen, auld Muin, sheen!" skreelt {Wee Hobbin}, bit the muin wis naewey
ti be seen, the starns nae aither; thae'd aw gane tae bed awready.

English:
"Shine, old Moon, shine!" Little Hobbin screamed, but the moon was
nowhere
to be seen, the stars not either; they had all gone to bed already.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 15:55:26 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 08:55:26 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.25 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.085526.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

Many thanks to Sandy, that "hit the spot"!!

I should make two little alterations in the Dutch H?welmann translation:

Dutch (Help!):
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuw {H?welmann}, maar de maan was
nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al alle te bed gegaan.

I think it should be "schreeuwde" (or, maybe, rather "gilde"), and
"allemaal naar bed gegaan".

As to the translation for the name "H?welmann", I can at least readily
provide the last three letters: "-tje"! :-)

Regards,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: Wim <wkv at home.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

Dutch (Help!):
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde {H?welmann}, maar de maan was
nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al allemaal naar bed
gegaan.

Sallands low saxon (holland, near zwolle city) Sombody do it better
please...
Skijn olde ,moane, skijn dan! Skreeuwde Oavelman, moar de Moane was
narngs
te sien, en de starn oak niet, se laang allemoalle al op bedde.

W!M  w.k.verdoold   wkv at home.nl

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

Ron asked for translations of a passage from _H?welmann_.
I added a translation in Zeelandic (Isle of Walcheren) below.
In stead of just copying the Low Saxon name, I came up with
_Kokkelvintje_ in stead. _Kokkel_ being both the Zeelandic
word for 'darling' (particularly used for children) as for the cuddly
toy (sometimes just a cloth) a child cannot sleep without. The
verb _kokkele(n)_ means 'to cuddle a child'. _Vintje_ stands for
'little man' (boy). I'm open for other suggestions than this _Kok-
kelvintje_.
I am howeever convinced that especially when translating tales like
this, names should be translated as well.

Zeelandic of the isle of Walcheren:
"Schient, ouwe maene, schient!" schre?uwden Kokkelvintje, mae de
maene was nergest nie te zieen, ok de starren nie; ze waere aollegaere
a na? bedde gegae.

Then Ron's translation in Dutch:

> Dutch (Help!):
> "Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuw {H?welmann}, maar de
> maan was nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al alle te
> bed gegaan.

I think this should/could be:
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde {H?welmann},
maar de maan was nergens te zien, de sterren ook niet, ze
waren allemaal al naar bed gegaan.

I can't think of a good translation of _H?welmann_ in Dutch
right now... Perhaps someone else can help?

Regards,
Marco
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>

Thanks, Gabriele, Wim and Marco!

So then how about this in Dutch?

"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde Hevelmannetje, maar de maan was
nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al allemaal naar bed
gegaan.

How about *_Koestermannetje_, _koesteren_, like _h?weln_, implying the
range 'petting', 'pampering' and 'coddling', perhaps even 'cherishing'
(apparently Afrikaans _koester_).

How about this in Afrikaans?

"Skyn, ou maan, skyn!" skreeude {Hewelmannetjie/Koestermannetjie}, maar
die maan was n?rens te sien nie, ook nie die sterre nie; hulle was al
almal bed toe gegaan.

Thanks again for your help, everyone.  I particularly like your
_Kokkelvintje_, Marco.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 16:03:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:03:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Expressions" 2002.06.25 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.090324.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Reasons for the creation of my list

Beste leeglanners,

A word or "two" about the list with the 16 items that I composed earlier
on.
After being involved in "language-matters" for over 20 years now
(although I'm a mathematician professionally), I thought it was time to
study language in a somewhat different perspective.

I mean, here in Belgium, during the second half of the twentieth
century, a lot of scientific effort has gone into research of the
vocabulary of what are called "vaktalen". These are forms of language
that are spoken by people exercising jobs that were (or are) on the
brink of extinction. People weaving baskets, making ropes, blacksmiths,
and so on. Even folks breeding race pigeons *s*. I fully understand that
this work had priority as many of these "handicrafts-people" were (very)
old and after their death their language would surely expire too. This
study however results in what I would like to call "peculiarism"
("particularisme" in Dutch). Of course the outcome of these inquiries
often showed an enormous variety of words for one single subject. This
could be expected because :
1) regularly some tiny piece of equipment or part of a device is
concerned
2) the devices themselves have been changing continuously and thoroughly
throughout history (being intricately linked to cultures and societies
that even in the olden days were subject to political and economic
forces of course).
So we got what we expected, thousands of words that boosted a lot of
people's feelings of "uniqueness".
I would like to reverse the point of view, instead of zooming in on say
a community of thatchers in Stuivekenskerke, I'd like to zoom out
(geographically speaking). That's why I like this Lowlands-forum so
much, it broadens my horizon.
At the same time I was interested in words that are somehow
"transcendental". With this, I mean : unrelated to any specific society
or time in history. And so I had to bring "numbers" in of course. Many a
(Germanic) dialect never gets any more abstract than this *s*. I can
hardly believe for example that words and pronounciation for "one",
"two", "three" are easily and significantly changed. Thus, they must
reflect an old stage of any language, I assume. One old counting system
was not decimal by the way but rather based on 5 multiples of 12 (making
60). Off the record :
1) the old divide between centum- and satem-languages in Indo-European
looks a little artificial in this respect
2) reading Dickens here in Thailand (don't laugh *s*, I couldn't get
hold of anything better), I was amazed to see that he still wrote "three
and twenty" for example instead of modern "twenty-three"...he also
writes : "Go away", said he, whereas nowadays it would be "Go away", he
said.
Other "universal" words are those that describe basic family relations,
so I wanted to include those as well.
But actually I'm explaining you my query backwards now *s*.
You see, what still puzzles me tremendously is the use of diphtongs in
our Lowlands-languages. Let me give you two examples : the words for
"house" and "ice" (I also deliberately didn't choose any loan-words
because they obey different rules). In Middle Dutch they were usually
written "hu(u)s" and
"i(e)s", I believe. Bear in mind though that in the period 1100-1450 the
county of Flanders was utterly dominant in every way, which (partly)
explains this orthography.
During the 15th century, power shifted eastwards and more and more these
words get spelled as "huys" and "ijs".
It's hard to believe that in the old "Meierij Overzenne" for example
(roughly Brabant west of the river Zenne...not by accident the place
where this most inspiring professor Blanquaert grew up *s*), in the run
of the 15th century common people actually started pronouncing these
words (slightly) differently. Writing language and actual speech of
medieval peasants and citizens are two different systems, I gather.
Fortunately, a thing or two can be deducted by studying
rhyming-schemes...however, is this method completely fool-proof ?
Every word that I chose has its own reason why it was selected but it
would lead me much too far to reveal them right now (I hope scholars
will immediately notice why I chose them).
Moreover, I'm on this cycling trip now from Chengdu (China) to Singapore
and I cannot spend more time behind a computer screen (unfortunately
*s*).
I hope this sheds a little more light on the creation of my list.
Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

"God is too big to fit inside just one religion"

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 16:50:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 09:50:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2002.06.25 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.095034.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: Numbers!

Dear Ron / Lowlanders

It was with great interest that I read the letter of Luc Hellinckx and
his
various expressions, and also the responses that his letter generated.

With the same aim in mind as Luc, that is to choose universal words that
highlight the subtle differences between the lowlands languages, I have
decided to compile a list of numbers, as these words are generally quite
similar.

I have so far translated this list into English, Dutch and German, but
my
knowledge of Frisian and Low Saxon is presently far from complete so I
will
need some help from the other members in preparing this table.

      ENGLISH    FRISIAN       DUTCH         LOW SAXON     GERMAN

1     one        ien           een           een           eins
2     two        twa           twee          twee          zwei
3     three                    drie          dree          drei
4     four                     vier                        vier
5     five                     vijf                        fuenf
6     six                      zes           zoess         sechs
7     seven                    zeven                       sieben
8     eight                    acht                        acht
9     nine                     negen                       neun
10    ten                      tien                        zehn
11    eleven                   elf                         elf
12    twelve                   twaalf        twoelf        zwoelf
13    thirteen                 dertien                     dreizehn
14    fourteen                 veertien                    vierzehn
15    fifteen                  vijftien                    fuenfzehn
16    sixteen                  zestien                     sechzehn
17    seventeen                zeventien                   siebzehn
18    eighteen                 achttien                    achtzehn
19    nineteen                 negentien                   neunzehn
20    twenty                   twintig                     zwanzig
30    thirty                   dertig                      dreissig
40    forty                    veertig                     vierzig
50    fifty                    vijftig                     fuenfzig
60    sixty                    zestig                      sechzig
70    seventy                  zeventig                    siebzig
80    eighty                   tachtig                     achtzig
90    ninety                   negentig                    neunzig
100   hundred                  honderd                     hundert

Please feel free to modify the list as required, particularly with
regard to
tranlsation into those languages which I may have failed to mention. As
can
be seen, there are many omissions. My apologies to the Dutch population
if I
have missplet the words for 14 and 40 but I was in a rush and did not
have
time to double-check these. Apologies also for the omission of umlauts
and
accents, this is not intentional but I have not worked out how to
include
these from hotmail.

Regards
David Elsworth.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Numerals

Here you go, David.  Below is the amended list with German items
properly "diacriticized" and the Low Saxon (Northern Low Saxon (Low
German)) and Westerlauwer Frisian columns completed.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: See also http://www.zompist.com/numbers.shtml

     ENGLISH    W.FRISIAN     DUTCH       LOW SAXON      GERMAN

  1  one        ien           een         een            eins
  2  two        twa           twee        twee           zwei
  3  three      trije         drie        dree           drei
  4  four       fjouwer       vier        veer           vier
  5  five       fiif          vijf        fiev/fief      f?nf
  6  six        seis          zes         s?ss           sechs
  7  seven      s?n           zeven       s?ven          sieben
  8  eight      acht          acht        acht           acht
  9  nine       njoggen       negen       negen          neun
 10  ten        tsien         tien        tein           zehn
 11  eleven     alve          elf         ?lven          elf
 12  twelve     tolve         twaalf      tw?lf          zw?lf
 13  thirteen   trettjin      dertien     d?rtein        dreizehn
 14  fourteen   fjirtjin      veertien    veertein       vierzehn
 15  fifteen    fyftjin       vijftien    f?ftein        f?nfzehn
 16  sixteen    sechstjin     zestien     s?sstein       sechzehn
 17  seventeen  santjin       zeventien   s?ventein      siebzehn
 18  eighteen   achttjin      achttien    achtein        achtzehn
 19  nineteen   njoggentjin   negentien   negentein      neunzehn
 20  twenty     tweintig      twintig     twintig        zwanzig
 30  thirty     tritich       dertig      d?rtig         dreissig
 40  forty      fjirtich      veertig     veertig        vierzig
 50  fifty      fyftich       vijftig     f?ftig/fieftig f?nfzig
 60  sixty      sechstich     zestig      s?sstig        sechzig
 70  seventy    santich       zeventig    s?ventig       siebzig
 80  eighty     tachtich      tachtig     tachentig      achtzig
 90  ninety     njoggentich   negentig    negentig       neunzig
100  hundred    h?ndert       honderd     hunnerd        hundert

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 17:08:38 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:08:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.25 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.100838.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.25 (01) [E]

Ron asked:

> So then how about this in Dutch?
>
> "Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde Hevelmannetje, maar de maan was
> nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al allemaal naar bed
> gegaan.
>
> How about *_Koestermannetje_, _koesteren_, like _h?weln_, implying the
> range 'petting', 'pampering' and 'coddling', perhaps even 'cherishing'
> (apparently Afrikaans _koester_).

I prefer _Koestermannetje_ rather than _Hevelmannetje_,
allthough I must say that _Koestermannetje_ does sound
very artificial. However, at this moment I don't have any
better suggestions... Anyone?

regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 17:33:16 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 10:33:16 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.103316.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2002.06.25 (03) [E]

>It was with great interest that I read the letter of Luc Hellinckx and
>his
>various expressions, and also the responses that his letter generated.
>
>With the same aim in mind as Luc, that is to choose universal words that
>highlight the subtle differences between the lowlands languages, I have
>decided to compile a list of numbers, as these words are generally quite
>similar.

I'm afraid this might be self-evident, but I can't help wondering if a
standard Swadesh list is available for Lowlands languages. It would be
very much in line with what a lot of people here seem to be doing.

By the way, Ron, what on earth happened to my posting about the "horse
sound"? Did anybody consider it irrelevant or did it just get lost
somewhere on the way?

Regards,
Leonard Okhotchinski

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Numerals

Dear Leonard,

I don't remember getting your submission about horse sounds, and I can't
find it anywhere.  Sorry.  :(  Can you resend it?

Excellent idea, the Swadesh list, Leonard!  Thanks!  I am not aware of
there being a comparative "Lowlandic" one, but it should be easy enough
to create one, should sufficient help be forthcoming.  I can provide the
Northern Low Saxon (Low German) and German items.  Additions in any
varieties or sub-varieties would be welcome.  It would be great to
eventually add this to our "language exhibit."

Everyone, below please find the raw list, just Swadesh's basic list of
100 words, minus the special additions.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

***

###: ENGLISH -
001: I, me -
002: you -
003: we -
004: this -
005: that -
006: who -
007: what -
008: not -
009: all -
010: many -
011: one -
012: two -
013: big -
014: long -
015: small -
016: woman -
017: man -
018: person -
019: fish -
020: bird -
021: dog -
022: louse -
023: tree -
024: seed -
025: leaf -
026: root -
027: bark -
028: skin -
029: flesh -
030: blood -
031: bone -
032: grease / oil -
033: egg -
034: horn -
035: tail -
036: feather -
037: hair -
038: head -
039: ear -
040: eye -
041: nose -
042: mouth -
043: tooth -
044: tongue -
045: claw -
046: foot -
047: knee -
048: hand -
049: belly -
050: neck -
051: breast(s) -
052: heart -
053: liver -
054: to drink -
055: to eat -
056: to bite -
057: to see -
058: to hear -
059: to know -
060: to sleep -
061: to die -
062: to kill -
063: to swim -
064: to fly -
065: to walk -
066: to come -
067: to lie (down) -
068: to sit -
069: to stand -
071: to say -
072: sun -
073: moon -
074: star -
075: water -
076: rain -
077: stone -
078: sand -
079: earth -
080: cloud -
081: smoke -
082: fire -
083: ash -
084: burn -
085: path -
086: mountain -
087: red -
088: green -
089: yellow -
090: white -
091: black -
092: night -
093: hot, warm -
094: cold -
095: full -
096: new -
097: good -
098: round -
099: dry -
100: name -

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 18:24:59 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 11:24:59 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.112459.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.25 (04) [E]

I like Koestermannetje better, too, but it still doesn't seem quite
"it".
Maybe we could borrow "Berendbotje" from the Dutch children's song:
"Berendbotje ging uit varen met z'n scheepje naar Zuidlaren...", or at
least
come up with something similar. Another adventurous youngster, even if
he
never makes it there...

Greetings,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language samples

Following Leonard Okhotchinski's suggestion, I have put online a copy of
the Swadesh list of 100 assumedly basic words (used in comparisons) with
Northern Low Saxon equivalents already entered.

     http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

Please follow the instructions given there.

Thanks.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 22:43:36 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 15:43:36 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.25 (07) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.154336.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language varieties"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Germanic, but the Germanic settlers in Britain referred to themselves as
> Saxons and Angles.  How can the close relationship between English (and
> Scots and Northumbrian) and Frisian be reconciled with the ethnonyms,
> and why are Frisians hardly ever mentioned?  Let's be wild and speculate
> that those who strongly Frisianized the Early English language were
> mostly Frisian women (attached to predominantly male Saxons, Angels and
> Jutes en route from their native places to Britain).  Has any of this
> ever been explored?

Isn't it possible that the Angles and Saxons were the ruling
classes and yet Frisian became the most influential language
in Britain? Perhaps different kingdoms had communication
difficulties and Frisian was the lingua franca for diplomacy?
We've seen how in the case of Shetlandic, Cornish and Scots a
language that's perceived as more respectable or useful (maybe
even just "trendy") can become the language of a new generation,
especially in populous areas.

Another possibility (not necessarily mutually excusive with the
above), is that once Germanic kingdoms were established in Britain,
Frisians came over to fill some sort of skills vacuum as tradesmen
and suchlike, the native Brythonic trades not offering the sort of
things the Anglo-Saxon rulers were accustomed to? Then some sort of
Frisian pidgin might develop, which became the basis of a somewhat
more united Germanic language.

Perhaps Frisians were ever-present but simply aren't mentioned in
British history because they didn't set up a kingdom there.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 23:35:13 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:35:13 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (08) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.163513.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]

> Everyone, below please find the raw list, just Swadesh's basic list of
> 100 words, minus the special additions.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> ***
Here are the Flemish variants:
>
> ###: ENGLISH -  Flemish
> 001: I, me -    ik(kke)- mie- me
> 002: you -      je- you-gi
> 003: we -       we- wiedre
> 004: this -     dad'ier
> 005: that -     dat doar-dadde
> 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin
> 007: what -     wa(dde)
> 008: not -      niet(ten)
> 009: all        ol-ollemolle
> 010: many -     vele veel
> 011: one -      i?n
> 012: two -      twi?
> 013: big -      groat
> 014: long -     lank-lange
> 015: small -    smal(E narrow)  klein(e)
> 016: woman -    vrouwmens-vrouwe
> 017: man -      man vent
> 018: person -   persoin
> 019: fish -     vis(sel)
> 020: bird -     veugle
> 021: dog -      (h)ond
> 022: louse -    luze
> 023: tree -     boam
> 024: seed -     zaod
> 025: leaf -     loaf
> 026: root -     wortle wortels
> 027: bark -     schorse
> 028: skin -     vel
> 029: flesh -    vli?s
> 030: blood -    bloed
> 031: bone -     boane
> 032: grease / oil - vet/olie
> 033: egg -      ei
> 034: horn -     (h)oirne
> 035: tail -     steirt
> 036: feather -  vadre (vadri)
> 037: hair -     (h)aor
> 038: head -     (h)oifd
> 039: ear -      oire
> 040: eye -      oige
> 041: nose -     neuze
> 042: mouth -    mond
> 043: tooth -    tand
> 044: tongue -   tonge
> 045: claw -     klouw
> 046: foot -     voet
> 047: knee -     knie
> 048: hand -     (h)and
> 049: belly -    buik
> 050: neck -     nekke
> 051: breast(s) -borst(en)-bost
> 052: heart -    (h)erte
> 053: liver -    levre
> 054: to drink - drink'n
> 055: to eat -   et'n
> 056: to bite -  bit'n
> 057: to see -   zien
> 058: to hear -  oiren
> 059: to know -  kenn' wet'n
> 060: to sleep - slaop'n
> 061: to die -   doi goan- sterven
> 062: to kill -  doiddoen- vermoirden-kel'n
> 063: to swim -  zwemm'
> 064: to fly -   vlieg'n
> 065: to walk -  wandeln
> 066: to come -  komm'
> 067: to lie (down) - goan ligg'n
> 068: to sit -   zit'n
> 069: to stand - stoan
> 071: to say -   zegg'n
> 072: sun -      zunne
> 073: moon -     maone
> 074: star -     sterre
> 075: water -    waotre
> 076: rain -     rinne- reegne
> 077: stone -    sti?n
> 078: sand -     zand
> 079: earth -    eirde
> 080: cloud -    wolke
> 081: smoke -    rook
> 082: fire -     vier
> 083: ash -      asne
> 084: burn -     brand
> 085: path -     pad
> 086: mountain - berg
> 087: red -      rwod
> 088: green -    groene
> 089: yellow -   gilwe-geel
> 090: white -    wit
> 091: black -    zwart
> 092: night -    nacht
> 093: hot, warm -hi?t warme
> 094: cold -     koud
> 095: full -     vul
> 096: new -      nieuw(e)
> 097: good -     goed
> 098: round -    rond
> 099: dry -      droge
> 100: name -     naome

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Help needed
> German (original?):
> "Leuchte, alter Mond, leuchte!" schrie H?welmann, aber der Mond war
> nirgends zu sehen und auch die Sterne nicht; sie waren alle schon zu
> Bett gegangen.
> (Theodor Storm: _H?welmann_)
> Meine ?bersetzungen | My Translations:
> Dutch (Help!):
> "Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuw {H?welmann}, maar de maan was
> nergens te zien, ook de sterren niet; ze waren al alle te bed gegaan.
"Schijn, oude maan, schijn!" schreeuwde (H), maar de maan was mergens te
zien, en de sterren ook niet; ze waren tesamen naar bed gegaan.
Flemish:
Skijn, oude maone, skijn!" skreeuwde(krischte/scri?mde) (H), moa de
maone
woas nievers te ziene, en de sterren aok niet; ze waren oltegoare
(olthope) naar bedde gegaon.
-For the (H) i would suggest in Flemish: 'kadulletje' or 'kakkernestje'.

Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language samples"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Numerals
>
> Everyone, below please find the raw list, just Swadesh's basic list of
> 100 words, minus the special additions.

Will it never end, this mad lust for translations?  :)

I'm afraid I don't think this sort of thing always works
very well - for example, Scots has two words for "you" and
"one", verb and noun forms for "smoke" are different and so
on, with different semantics. Since there's no room to explain
the meanings, I've just put one word in each case.

> ###: ENGLISH - SCOTS
> 001: I, me - I, me
> 002: you - ye
> 003: we - we
> 004: this - this
> 005: that - that
> 006: who - wha
> 007: what - what
> 008: not - no
> 009: all - aa
> 010: many - mony
> 011: one - ane
> 012: two - twa
> 013: big - muckle
> 014: long - lang
> 015: small - smaa
> 016: woman - wumman
> 017: man - man
> 018: person - body
> 019: fish - fish
> 020: bird - bird
> 021: dog - dug
> 022: louse - looss
> 023: tree - tree
> 024: seed - seed
> 025: leaf - leaf
> 026: root - ruit
> 027: bark - bark
> 028: skin - skin
> 029: flesh - fleesh
> 030: blood - bluid
> 031: bone - bane
> 032: grease / oil - creish / ile
> 033: egg - egg
> 034: horn - horn
> 035: tail - tail
> 036: feather - feather
> 037: hair - hair
> 038: head - heid
> 039: ear - lug
> 040: eye - ee
> 041: nose - nose
> 042: mouth - mooth
> 043: tooth - tuith
> 044: tongue - tongue
> 045: claw - claw
> 046: foot - fit
> 047: knee - knee
> 048: hand - haun
> 049: belly - belly
> 050: neck - neck
> 051: breast(s) - breest(s)
> 052: heart - hert
> 053: liver - liver
> 054: to drink - tae drink
> 055: to eat - tae aet
> 056: to bite - tae bite
> 057: to see - tae see
> 058: to hear - tae hear
> 059: to know - tae ken
> 060: to sleep - tae sleep
> 061: to die - tae dee
> 062: to kill - tae kill
> 063: to swim - tae soom
> 064: to fly - tae flee
> 065: to walk - tae gang
> 066: to come - tae come
> 067: to lie (down) - tae lie
> 068: to sit - tae sit
> 069: to stand - tae staun
> 071: to say - tae say
> 072: sun - sun
> 073: moon - muin
> 074: star - star
> 075: water - watter
> 076: rain - rain
> 077: stone - stane
> 078: sand - sand
> 079: earth - yirth
> 080: cloud - clood
> 081: smoke - reek
> 082: fire - fire
> 083: ash - ash
> 084: burn - burn
> 085: path - peth
> 086: mountain - hill
> 087: red - reid
> 088: green - green
> 089: yellow - yellae
> 090: white - white
> 091: black - black
> 092: night - nicht
> 093: hot, warm - het, warm
> 094: cold - cauld
> 095: full - fou
> 096: new - new
> 097: good - guid
> 098: round - roond
> 099: dry - dry
> 100: name - name

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language samples

Thanks, folks, also Reuben Epp and Marco Evenhuis who sent me their
lists privately.

The updated list: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

> Will it never end, this mad lust for translations?  :)

:)  It'll fizzle out soon enough.  It's what in insider jargon is known
as "gathering and feeding frenzie," which tends to be short-lived.

Of course lists like these don't give you all that much information and
don't allow for semantic shifts and the like.  But it's good enough for
most people's entertainment.  I think these lists were initially
compiled for unknown languages in unknown cultures, supposedly
containing a selection of the most universal words.  If you ask me, it's
still a very Eurocentric selection, but since our area falls within this
center, a list of this sort isn't too bad.

Luc, "Kadulletje" sounds great to me!  Thanks for the translation.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 25 23:37:45 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 16:37:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.25 (09) [E]
Message-ID: <TUE.25.JUN.2002.163745.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.JUN.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: erek gass <egass at caribline.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.25 (07) [E]

I'll draw your attention to the Jutes also, and the fact that the
various "old" Low Germanic and Nordic languages were still rather close
enough to allow some (even a great deal) of mutual comprehension.  Add
to that that Frisians WERE part of the contingent who came to England
settling largely (with their Continental neighbours, the Jutes and
Angles) in the Kent and East Anglia regions of Britain, and you probably
have the answer.  Frisian and English are astonishingly conservative in
some aspects (especially consonants) of their languages, and I've always
suspected that this rather than any other relationship has kept the tow
somewhat closer in appearance and sound than some of the other theories
I've heard advanced.

I'll bet there are others who see this differently, and I'd like to see
what the rest of you have to offer.

Erek

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 26 16:04:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 09:04:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.090431.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Dear Ron

As said previously, Estuary does not contain many
dialectual differences from standard English, but here
are the pronunciations

###: ENGLISH - Estuary (Hopefully you can understand
the symbols I've used, ? = 'ash', @ = schwa, 6 = open
schwa, { is the long vowel in the same position as
schwa, t(s) is a slightly affricated t, N is the ng, E
and O are the open equivalents of the cardinals e and
o, and A is cardinal 5)
001: I, me - AI, mIi
002: you - jYy
003: we - wIi
004: this - DIs
005: that - D??
006: who - hYy
007: what - wO?
008: not - nO?
009: all - Uu
010: many - mEni
011: one - w6n
012: two - t(s)Yy
013: big - bIg
014: long - lON
015: small - smUu
016: woman - wUm at n
017: man - m?:n
018: person - p{:s at n
019: fish - fIS
020: bird - b{:d
021: dog - dOg
022: louse - l?Ys
023: tree - tSrIi
024: seed - sIid
025: leaf - lIif
026: root - rYy?
027: bark - bA:?k
028: skin - skIn
029: flesh - flES
030: blood - bl6d
031: bone - b at Yn
032: grease / oil - f@?, grIis, OIU
033: egg - Eg
034: horn - hUun
035: tail - t?U
036: feather - fED@
037: hair - hE:
038: head - hEd
039: ear - Ii@
040: eye - AI
041: nose - n at Yz
042: mouth - m?YT
043: tooth - t(s)UuT
044: tongue - t6N
045: claw - klO:
046: foot - fY?
047: knee - nIi
048: hand - h?:nd
049: belly - bEli
050: neck - nE?k
051: breast(s) - brEst / brEsts
052: heart - hA:?
053: liver - lIv@
054: to drink - t(s)@dZrINk
055: to eat - t(s)YwIi?
056: to bite - t(s)@bAI?
057: to see - t(s)@sIi
058: to hear - t(s)@hIi@
059: to know - t(s)@n at Y
060: to sleep - t(s)@slIi?p
061: to die - t(s)@dAI
062: to kill - t(s)@kIU
063: to swim - t(s)@swIm
064: to fly - t(s)@flAI
065: to walk - t(s)@wUu?k
066: to come - t(s)@k6m
067: to lie (down) - t(s)@lAI
068: to sit - t(s)@sI?
069: to stand - t(s)@st?:nd
071: to say - t(s)@sEI
072: sun - s6n
073: moon - mUun
074: star - stA:
075: water - wUut(s)@
076: rain - rEIn
077: stone - st at Yn
078: sand - s?:nd
079: earth - {:T
080: cloud - kl?Yd
081: smoke - sm at Y?k
082: fire - fAI@
083: ash - ?S
084: burn - b{:n
085: path - pA:T
086: mountain - m?Ynt(s)In
087: red - rEd
088: green - grIin
089: yellow - jEl at Y
090: white - wAI?
091: black - bl?k
092: night - nAI?
093: hot, warm - hO?, wuUm
094: cold - k6Ud
095: full - fUu
096: new - njYy
097: good - gYd
098: round - r?Ynd
099: dry - dZrAI
100: name - nEIm

Gary

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (08) [E]

Luc Vanbrabant wrote about the Swadesh list he
translated:

> Here are the Flemish variants:

Sorry to keep going on about this subject, but
shouldn't this be WEST-Flemish? Some people
already made clear that the name 'Flemish' is very
confusing in this respect.

Some of your translations look very interesting:

> > 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin

and then

> > 011: one -      i?n

As far as I know West-Flemish, in both these words
_jin_ or _i?n_ or (as I would spell it) _e?n_ sound
exactly the same and stands for the same word, in
my spelling _e?n_, 'one' (_wuke?n_ can litterally be
translated as 'what one'). Am I wrong or is there
another reason that you chose these different spellings?

The same goes for the way you spell the West-Flemish
_o?_ (or as you spell it _oi_, _oa_ or _o_), e.g.:

> > 013: big -      groat
> > 023: tree -     boam
> > 039: ear -      oire
> > 040: eye -      oige
> > 099: dry -      droge

Are there any differences in the way the _oa_/_oi_/
_o_ in these words are pronounced? In Zeelandic and
the northern West-Flemish dialects I'm familiar with,
I would just spell these words as:

gro?t
bo?m
o?re
o?ge
dro?ge

And then a potentially very interesting matter.
Zeelandic has a very clear opposition between _ae_
and _ao_-sounds. Some examples:

Zeelandic - English
straete - street
laeter - later
vaoder - father
klaover - clover

As you see, where Zeelandic has a more open a,
English has an open vowel as well. And where
Zeelandic has a more closed a, English has a
closed vowel as well. This is not always the case,
but there are many, many examples where it is.
Now Luc uses two different ways of spelling a,
what I understand to be, open a:

> 069: to stand - stoan
> 073: moon -     maone
> 036: feather -  vadre

The last one is probably a small mistake. I think
Luc translated 'father' in West-Flemish rather
than 'feather'. 'Feather' has to be something
like _pluume_ or _ve?re_...
But I am interested in the different spellings
_a_ (_aa?_), _oa_ and _ao_. Is there really a
difference in the way these a's are pronounced?
And if there is, is there some kind of system in it?
I only know of a few dialects in the far south west
of French Flanders, that have basically the same
system as Zeelandic. That can be explained because
these villages are so far away from the centre-dialects
of West-Flemish that the so-called 'Brabantish expan-
sion' wasn't really 'felt' there. The Brabantish expan-
sion by the way, is the disappearance of a lot of
original ingvaeonic features in West- and even more
in East-Flemish in favour of linguistic features from
the economically dominant region of Brabant in
the 1400s.
Due to this Brabantish expansion, East-Flemish is
nowadays considered to be a Brabantish dialect and
West-Flemish has a lot of Brabantish features, where
Zeelandic has retained more ingvaeonic features (but
then again 'suffered' from Hollandic expansion later).

Another odd thing I found in the West-Flemish
version of Swadesh list:

> 002: you -      je- you-gi
> 045: claw -     klouw

In 002 the _ou_ is clearly pronounced as in
English 'you', but in 045 that can hardly be
the case, since all West-Flemish dialects I know
have an _au_ there (pronounced as in 'thou').

> 049: belly -    buik

Why not _buuk_? _Buik_ sounds very Dutch
or at least Brabantish ('boik'?) to me.
The same goes for _skijn_ in the West-Flemish
translation of the H?welmann-fragment. Should
that not be _skien_:

"Skien, oude maone, skien!" skre?uwde Kadulletje,
mao de maone wos nievers te ziene, en de sterren
o?k nie; ze waren oltegaore naar bedde gegaon.

Because of this translation, I finally know where
Luc's village Oekene is situated ;-). It must be near
Kortrijk, since that is the only part of West-Flanders
where Dutch _sch-_ sounds as in English: _sk-_!

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks for the sample (above), Gary!  I had to compromise a bit in the
display, because most surfers do not yet have phonetic and Unicode
fonts.  Please let me know if it is too much of a compromise.

Thanks also to Rudi V?ri who kindly supplied Dutch and Afrikaans
equivalents.

The list has been updated:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

Say, Gary, aren't [v] and [f] options for _th_ in Estuary English?  Or
is that considered sub-standard?

Marco responding to Luc's Flemish data:

> Some of your translations look very interesting:
>
> > > 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin

Did you notice Northern Low Saxon (Low German) _wokeen_ for 'who'?  It
is pronounced ['voUkE.In] or [voU'kE.In], often abbreviated to _keen_
[kE.In], especially as a conjunction, as for example in _Ik weet nich,
keen dat schreven hett_ 'I don't know who wrote it/that'.

This abbreviated _keen_ coincides with _keen_ [kE.In] 'none', 'no ...',
as in _Ik verstah keen Ingelsch_ 'I understand no English'.  However,
this does not usually cause confusion.  'No one' and 'nobody' tends to
be _keen een_ (often written _keeneen_) ['kE.In?E.In] ("no one").

A sentence like _Keen hett dat schreven?_ 'Who wrote it/that?' tends to
confuse semi-proficient German listeners who are not familiar with
_keen_ in place of German _wer_ and associate _keen_ with German
_kein(er)_ 'no (one)'.  They would interprete the sentence as German
_Keiner hat es/das geschrieben_ 'No one wrote it/that.'

Oftentimes I find elements in Flemish and Zeelandic that seem familiar
from a Lowlands Saxon point of view, elements apparently not found in
Standard Dutch.  I wonder if this is because (1) Standard Dutch somehow
lost these, or (2) it is due to Saxon migration to and thus influence on
the Flemish and Zeelandic areas.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 26 17:44:57 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 10:44:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.104457.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (01) [E]

Ron:

> Marco responding to Luc's Flemish data:
>
> > Some of your translations look very interesting:
> >
> > > > 006: who -      wie(ne)-wukjin
>
> Did you notice Northern Low Saxon (Low German) _wokeen_ for 'who'?  It
> is pronounced ['voUkE.In] or [voU'kE.In], often abbreviated to _keen_
> [kE.In], especially as a conjunction, as for example in _Ik weet nich,
> keen dat schreven hett_ 'I don't know who wrote it/that'.
>
> This abbreviated _keen_ coincides with _keen_ [kE.In] 'none', 'no ...',
> as in _Ik verstah keen Ingelsch_ 'I understand no English'.  However,
> this does not usually cause confusion.  'No one' and 'nobody' tends to
> be _keen een_ (often written _keeneen_) ['kE.In?E.In] ("no one").

I am not that familiar with Low Saxon, but it seems to
me that we're dealing with the same thing here. _Wuk-
e?n_ (_wuk e?n_) clearly consists of the words _wuk_
('what') and _e?n_ ('one'). Is this the case for Low Saxon
as well? I mean, is _wokeen_ a contraction of something
like _wok_ and _een_?
The 'other' _keen_ ('none') does nog exist in Zeelandic/
West-Flemish. We use _gin_, _ge?n_ (or in Luc's spelling
probably _gi?n_).

> Oftentimes I find elements in Flemish and Zeelandic that seem familiar
> from a Lowlands Saxon point of view, elements apparently not found in
> Standard Dutch.  I wonder if this is because (1) Standard Dutch somehow
> lost these, or (2) it is due to Saxon migration to and thus influence on
> the Flemish and Zeelandic areas.

I believe it is a mix of the two. And I think the 'real'
Saxon influence (as you described under [2]) can be
divided in Frisian/ingvaeonic influence on both
Low Saxon and Zeelandic/West-Flemish and on
the other hand true Low Saxon influence on the
language of the far southwest of the Lowlands area.

I believe I once pointed out the early Saxon migration
to the region of Boulogne in northern France, where
'Saxon' placenames are still to be found all over the
area. This Saxon region had quite an influence on
the Flemish/Zeelandic coastal areas just north of it.
I alwaus had difficulty to believe that 'Dutch' (Fran-
conian or Friso-Franconian) was spoken as far south
as Montreuil or even Abbeville in the 10th century.
I think these parts were largely Saxon in language due
to Saxon immigration.

As for the present situation, it is too easy to just say
that, for example, the strongly pronounced suffix -n
in West-Flemish verbs (_eetn_ 'to eat', _praotn_ 'to
talk') is 'Saxon'. In fact, this suffix -n is relatively
young and came from the east, from Brabant. Iron-
ically, it has disappeared from the Brabantish dialects
themselves later on.
The original system is 100% Frisian in both Zeeland
(where it still exists on most of the isles) and West-
Flanders (where it only exits in a few of the most
western villages in French Flandres, eg Wulverdinghe,
Nieurlet/Nieuwerleet and Buysscheure). Look at the
verb 'to walk in Zeelandic (Z), West-Flemish (WF),
French-Flemish of Buysscheure (FFB) and English (E):

Z - FFB - WF = E
ik lo?pe - ik lo?pe - ik lo?pn = I walk
ons l?pe - wilder l?pe - wudder lo?pn = we walk
ik ? gel?pe - ik ? gel?pe - ik ?n gelo?pn = I have walked

so in these examples there is no n in Zeelandic and
French-Flemish of Buysscheure, but there is an n in
West-Flemish.
Now these:

Z: ik bin te moe vo te l?pen
FFB: ik zien te moe(g) vo te l?pen
WF: ik zien te moe(g) vo/om te lo?pn
E: I am too tired to walk

Z: l?pen is vo mien makkelijker as rieen
FFB: l?pen is vo mien makkelijker as/of rieen
WF: lo?pn is vo mien makkelijker of rien
E: walking is easier for me than riding (a car, a bike)

As far as I now, Frisian (Westerlauwer Frisian)
Has the exact same system that apparantely
survived the Hollandic expansion in Zeeland
(no n's at all in the pronounciation Hollandic/
Standard Dutch - the n is however written in all
positions in Standard Dutch) and the Brabantish
expansion in the far west of French Flanders.

So I think there was quite an important influence
of Low Saxon on West-Flemish and, to a lesser
extent, Zeelandic. But I believe the Frisian influence
was a lot bigger and probably Zeelandic/West-
Flemish and Low Saxon share some of these
Frisian features.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Marco, thanks for yet another very informative piece!

> I am not that familiar with Low Saxon, but it seems to
> me that we're dealing with the same thing here. _Wuk-
> e?n_ (_wuk e?n_) clearly consists of the words _wuk_
> ('what') and _e?n_ ('one'). Is this the case for Low Saxon
> as well? I mean, is _wokeen_ a contraction of something
> like _wok_ and _een_?

I'm not sure.  Maybe someone else knows.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 26 19:09:45 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 12:09:45 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (03) [E/F]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.120945.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

> Tentative:
>
> Westerlauwersk Frysk (Help!):
> "Lykje, ?lde moane, lykje!" skreaude {H?welmann}, mar de moane wie
> nearne ta sjen, ek e stjerren net; hja binne al alegeare ta b?d gongen.

Ik lit even de namme gewurde, de^r kinne oaren har faaks oer bu^ge..
Ik soe earder sizze (echte flater: lykje = "to seem", net "to shine")

"Skyn, a^ld moanne, skyn!" skreaude {Ha"welmann}, mar de moanne wie
nearne te sjen, en de stjerren ek net: hja wiene allegearre al op be^d
gien"
(Instead of "gien", "gongen" is also correct, a matter of dialect)

Ik soe oer it Sealtersk wat langer stinne moatte, dat de^r weagje ik my
foarearst net oan....

Groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 26 21:49:05 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 14:49:05 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (04) [E/F]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.144905.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: "Stella en Henno" <stellahenno at hetnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]

Foar it Westerlauwersk Frysk (sa u't en troch jou ik mear farianten,
mar al te subtyl sil ik net besykje te we^zen, om 'e koartens..)

> ###: ENGLISH -
> 001: I, me - ik, my
> 002: you - do (obj: dy)
> 003: we - wy
> 004: this - dit
> 005: that - dat
> 006: who - wa
> 007: what - wat
> 008: not - net
> 009: all - al(le)
> 010: many - in soad, folle
> 011: one - ien
> 012: two - twa
> 013: big - grut
> 014: long - lang
> 015: small - lyts
> 016: woman - frommiske, frou
> 017: man - man
> 018: person - persoan, minske
> 019: fish - fisk
> 020: bird - fu^gel
> 021: dog - hu^n
> 022: louse - lu^s
> 023: tree - beam
> 024: seed - sied
> 025: leaf - ble^d
> 026: root - woartel
> 027: bark - bast
> 028: skin - hu^d
> 029: flesh - fleis, fle^sk (older)
> 030: blood - bloed
> 031: bone - bonke, bien (as a "material")
> 032: grease / oil - fet, oalje
> 033: egg - aai
> 034: horn - hoarn
> 035: tail - sturt
> 036: feather - fear
> 037: hair - hier
> 038: head - holle, haad (only in the sense of "boss")
> 039: ear - ear
> 040: eye - each
> 041: nose - noas
> 042: mouth - mu^le
> 043: tooth - toske
> 044: tongue - tonge
> 045: claw - kloer, klau
> 046: foot - foet
> 047: knee - knibbel
> 048: hand - ha^n
> 049: belly - liif, bu^k
> 050: neck - nekke
> 051: breast(s) - boarst(en)
> 052: heart - hert
> 053: liver - lever
> 054: to drink - drinke
> 055: to eat - ite
> 056: to bite - bite
> 057: to see - sjen
> 058: to hear - hearre
> 059: to know - witte
> 060: to sleep - sliepe
> 061: to die - (fer)stjerre
> 062: to kill - deameitsje, deie
> 063: to swim - swimme
> 064: to fly - fleane
> 065: to walk - rinne
> 066: to come - komme
> 067: to lie (down) - lizze, lizzen gean
> 068: to sit - sitte
> 069: to stand - stean
> 071: to say - sizze
> 072: sun - sinne
> 073: moon - moanne
> 074: star - stjer
> 075: water - wetter
> 076: rain - rein
> 077: stone - stien
> 078: sand - sa^n
> 079: earth - ierde
> 080: cloud - wolken
> 081: smoke - smoke (a cigaret, say), rikje ("it fjoer rikket" = the fire
is smoking)
> 082: fire - fjoer
> 083: ash - jiske
> 084: burn - (fer)baarne
> 085: path - paad
> 086: mountain - berch
> 087: red - read
> 088: green - grien
> 089: yellow - giel
> 090: white - wyt
> 091: black - swart
> 092: night - nacht
> 093: hot, warm - hjit, waarm
> 094: cold - ka^ld
> 095: full - fol
> 096: new - nij
> 097: good - goed
> 098: round - ru^n
> 099: dry - droech
> 100: name - namme

hardly a loan word in sight, nice to see..

Groetnis,

Henno Brandsma

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Thanks, Henno.

I've added them to the page, minus annotation.  Also, under 081
("smoke") I put _reek_, because we all understood it as a noun.

By the way, in Lowlands Saxon, too, we have the verb (/sm??k-/) _sm?ken_
'to smoke (tobacco)' (cf. archaic German _schmauchen_), and the noun
(/smouk/) _Smook_ 'smoke'.  I have now added the latter to _Rook, R??k_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 00:20:57 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 17:20:57 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.26 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.172057.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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=======================================================================

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Language Samples

The modern Northumbrian language sample - I'm fascinated by some of the
similarities between my language & others. It would be great if some of
this could be put together in some sort of publication.

ENGLISH -   Northumbrian
001: I, me - I, me
002: you - yhay
003: we - we
004: this - this
005: that - thet, thad
006: who - wee
007: what - whet
008: not - not, nod
009: all - aal
010: many - menny
011: one - wern
012: two - two
013: big - muckle
014: long - lang
015: small - smaal
016: woman - wumin
017: man - man
018: person - porson
019: fish - fish
020: bird - bord
021: dog - dog, durg
022: louse - louse, loose
023: tree - tree
024: seed - seed
025: leaf - leaf
026: root - ruoot
027: bark - bark
028: skin - kin
029: flesh - flesh
030: blood - blood, blurd
031: bone - bane, burn
032: grease / oil - oil
033: egg - egg
034: horn - horn
035: tail - tail
036: feather - feather, feathah
037: hair - hi'er
038: head - heed
039: ear - ear, lug
040: eye - eye
041: nose - nose,
042: mouth - mooth
043: tooth - tooth, tuith
044: tongue - tongue
045: claw - claa
046: foot - foot
047: knee - knee
048: hand - hand, hend
049: belly - belly, gut, kite
050: neck - neck
051: breast(s) - breast, breest
052: heart - heart, hairt
053: liver - liver, livah
054: to drink - tu drink
055: to eat - tu eat
056: to bite - tu bite
057: to see - tu see
058: to hear - tu heor
059: to know - tu knaa
060: to sleep - tu sleep
061: to die - tu die
062: to kill - tu kill
063: to swim - tu swim
064: to fly - tu flee
065: to walk - tu waalk
066: to come - tu cyum or howay (come along)
067: to lie (down) - tu lie
068: to sit - tu sit, sid
069: to stand - tu stand, stan
071: to say - tu saya
072: sun - surn
073: moon - moon
074: star - star
075: water - watter, wattah
076: rain - rain
077: stone - sturn, stane
078: sand - sand, san
079: earth - orth
080: cloud - cloud, clood
081: smoke - smurk, smooke
082: fire - fire
083: ash - esh
084: burn - born
085: path - peth
086: mountain - moontin
087: red - reed
088: green - green
089: yellow - yella
090: white - white
091: black - black
092: night - neet
093: hot, warm - hot, het / waarm
094: cold - caad, cowld
095: full - full
096: new - new
097: good - gurd
098: round - roond
099: dry - dry
100: name - nyem

Glenn Simpson
Northumbrian Language Society

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language samples

Thanks, Glenn!

I've added your list to the page:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.25 (05) [E]

>From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2002.06.25 (03) [E]
>
>>It was with great interest that I read the letter of Luc Hellinckx and
>>his
>>various expressions, and also the responses that his letter generated.
>>
>>With the same aim in mind as Luc, that is to choose universal words that
>>highlight the subtle differences between the lowlands languages, I have
>>decided to compile a list of numbers, as these words are generally quite
>>similar.
>
>I'm afraid this might be self-evident, but I can't help wondering if a
>standard Swadesh list is available for Lowlands languages. It would be
>very much in line with what a lot of people here seem to be doing.
>Regards,
>Leonard Okhotchinski
>----------
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Numerals
>
>Dear Leonard,
>
>Excellent idea, the Swadesh list, Leonard!  Thanks!  I am not aware of
>there being a comparative "Lowlandic" one, but it should be easy enough
>to create one, should sufficient help be forthcoming.  I can provide the
>Northern Low Saxon (Low German) and German items.  Additions in any
>varieties or sub-varieties would be welcome.  It would be great to
>eventually add this to our "language exhibit."
>
>Regards,
>Reinhard/Ron

Hello Leonard, hello Ron !

No doubt such a comparative list can be helpful for several purposes but
I
think it can also mislead because it doesn't mention that in distinct
languages a word can undergo a different developement. For example: In
Eastern Friesland Low Saxon the word for skin is "hu:d" but we also have
the word "skin" and this is exactly the same word as in English but it
has
developed a modified meaning (= dandruff, scurf, peeled skin). Somewhere
on
the table I read the word "vent" for "man, male person". This word
(fent)
also exists in EFLS but it means "boy".
According to the situation, the intention of the speaker etc. there are
several possibilities for example to express "to kill" or "to murder"
but
most of them aren't one word but expressions that can be considered to
be
phraseologisms. This is true for a lot of other expressions, too. But
these
won't ever been picked up into such a comparative list (don't explain
why -
I know) but they are very characteristic for the language (especially
the
non-standardized languages.
Nevertheless I'll mail a EFLS version of the list.

Regards
Holger

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
Subject: Numerals

Dear all

Northumbrian numbahs (numbers) -


ENGLISH    FRISIAN       DUTCH         LOW SAXON     GERMAN
North'd

1     one        ien           een           een           eins    wern
2     two        twa           twee          twee          zwei    two
3     three                    drie          dree          drei    three
4     four                     vier                        vier    fower
5     five                     vijf                        fuenf   five
6     six                      zes           zoess         sechs   six
7     seven                    zeven                       sieben  siven
8     eight                    acht                        acht    eyght
9     nine                     negen                       neun    nine
10    ten                      tien                        zehn    ten
11    eleven                   elf                         elf
eliven
12    twelve                   twaalf        twoelf        zwoelf
twelve
13    thirteen                 dertien                     dreizehn
thortee
14    fourteen                 veertien                    vierzehn
fowteen
15    fifteen                  vijftien                  fuenfzehn
fifteen
16    sixteen                  zestien                    sechzehn
sixteen
17    seventeen                zeventien                  siebzehn
siventeen
18    eighteen                 achttien                    achtzehn
eyghteen
19    nineteen                 negentien                   neunzehn
nineteen
20    twenty                   twintig                     zwanzig
twenie
30    thirty                   dertig                      dreissig
thorty
40    forty                    veertig                     vierzig
fowty
50    fifty                    vijftig                     fuenfzig
fifty
60    sixty                    zestig                      sechzig
sixty
70    seventy                  zeventig                    siebzig
siventy
80    eighty                   tachtig                     achtzig
eyghty
90    ninety                   negentig                    neunzig
ninety
100   hundred                  honderd                     hundert
hundrid

Tek care,

Glenn Simpson

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 04:11:38 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 21:11:38 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <WED.26.JUN.2002.211138.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 26.JUN.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/>
 Rules: <http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/rules.html>
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=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.06.24 (02) [E/German]

>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Help needed
>
>Liebe Lowlanders,
>   Wie Ihr wisst, arbeiten wir momentan an kurzen Enf??????ngen in die
>"Lowlands-Sprachen" (unter dem Titel "Lowlands Talk"). Es sollen auch
>kurze Sprachproben dabei sein. F?? ???ie verschiedenen nordfriesischen
>Sprachvarianten stehen gl??????icherweise kurze, eins???ige Proben bereit,
>die das Nordfriisk Instituut (Nordfriesische Institut,
>http://www.nordfriiskinstituut.de/) online ausstellt, und zwar aus
>Theodor Storms Kinderbuch _H???lmann_ (*siehe Links unten). Ich w?? ???
>gern auch saterfriesische und westerlauwer-friesische ??ersetzungen
>hinzuf??????.
>Es w??? nat?? ???ch auch sch????? >wenn wir davon auch ??ersetzungen in die anderen
>Lowlands-Sprachvarianten h???en. Falls Ihr den Namen _H???lmann_ nicht
>?? ???nehmen wollt, bedenkt bitte beim ??ersetzen, dass _H???lmann_
>(_Hevelmann_) -- hier der Name eines ungeduldigen, nie zufriedenen
>Jungen -- auf Nieders???sisch (Niederdeutsch) so etwas wie
>"entz??????nder, kleiner Junge/Liebling" bedeutet (von _h???ln_ ~ _heveln_
>'(ein Baby oder Kleinkind) verh???cheln und mit Spielen unterhalten').
>Bitte bedenkt auch, dass dies nicht die einzigen Sprachproben sein
>werden, und dass wir uns freuen w?? ???n, wenn Ihr uns auch andere *kurze*
>Sprachproben zuschicken w?? ???t.
>   Herzlichen Dank!
>   Reinhard/Ron
>
>
>German (original?):
>"Leuchte, alter Mond, leuchte!" schrie H???lmann, aber der Mond war
>nirgends zu sehen und auch die Sterne nicht; sie waren alle schon zu
>Bett gegangen.
>(Theodor Storm: _H???lmann_)
>
Eastern Friesland Low Saxon:
"Sgh??n, oel m??n, sgh??n !" b??elk H??velmann (Kne:welke), man d??i
m??n was
nargends tau s??in un o:k d??i ste:erns n??it; d??i wassen al ??l up
b??e g??n.

(If it is not displayed correctly:
sgh[i+accent circonflexe]n, oel m[o+accent aigu]n, sgh[i+accent
circonflexe]
n !  b[o-Umlaut]elk H. man d[a-Umlaut]i m[o+accent aigu]n was nargends
tau s
[a-Umlaut]in un o:k d[a-Umlaut]i ste:erns n[a-Umlaut]it (or: ni), d[a-
Umlaut]i wassen al [a+accent circonflexe]l up b[a-Umlaut]e g[o+accent
aigu]
n.)

I take H??velmann for a name. As a word with the meaning Ron explained
it is
totally unknown to me. I then would propose "Kne:welke", the diminutive
for "kne:wel", a little boy, loveable but a "real boy".

Kumpelment
Holger

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (02) [E]

A chairde,

Due to work commitments I have only been able to keep
up intermittently with the fantastic and informative
discussions ongoing. I trust you forgive me.

I'd like to throw a new question into the ring if I
may. Long-term contributors will recall my rather
obsessive drive to understand the origin and
development of northern English dialects, specifically
the variants spoken around Nottingham. When I arrived
on the list I had some rather fantastical assumptions
that the variants were the dregs of the Old Norse of
the Danelaw; since then, having learnt swathes of both
Dutch and West Frisian, I can say with certainty that
the Nottingham variants derive almost entirely from a
West Germanic base (although phonology retains
substantial North Germanic remnants, I'm certain).
Vocabulary in particular is heavily influenced by what
appears to be either Zeelandic; grammar is less
obvious.

My question is this: if Nottingham English is
descdended almost entirely from a Franconian or
Ingvaeonic mileau (someone will have to precisely
reiterate the differences to me again, I'm afraid),
does any of it at all descend from the Scandinavian
(presumably proto-Danish or Jutish) spoken in the
Danelaw?

Go raibh maith agaibh!

Chris.

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 14:32:58 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:32:58 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.073258.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 27.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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=======================================================================

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Samples

Dear All,

Ron said:

>Say, Gary, aren't [v] and [f] options for _th_ in
>Estuary English?  Or
>is that considered sub-standard?

It would be just in the boundaries of Estuary, but
definitely at the London end of the scale. At my
school where I grew up, I can only remember one pupil
there that substituted v and f for th, and I know in
the cruel way of children that we used to 'take the
mickey out of him' - tease him.

My mother always used to correct me when I used this,
and also when I used a glottal stop between vowels, as
this wasn't considered 'refayned' enough. However,
since she never made comments about my glottaling of t
pre-consonantally, my difference in pronunciation
between 'board' and 'bored', or my l-vocalisation,
these are features which I've retained. It's only
since teaching English as a foreign language that I've
tried to reinsert my 'l's. (I have to admit though
that this means that I tend to be hypercorrect when
teaching at times and sometimes pronounce words like
'walk' with an l!)

The rules for f and v substitution would be as follows

th substituted by f in all positions, think > fink,
path > pahf

dh substituted by v when non-initial, mother > muvver,
bathe > bave

dh omitted when word initial, this > is, that > a?.

Also on the Swadesh list, I made a mistake, and I
wrote 'fat' as 'f@?' this should have been 'f??',
sorry

Gary

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language samples

Thanks, Gary!

The two places where I noticed /D/ -> [v] and /T/ [f/ were London and
Australia, among then young people (mid-1960s-mid-1980s).  In Australia
it did not seem to be an areal feature but a social one.

I'll correct the mistake on the list later today, will also add
Criostoir's Nottingham English items.  Holger's Eastern Friesland ones
are already up.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Dear all

Glenn wrote:

>097: good - gurd

Glenn - quick question - I thought Northumbrian
English was rhotic (pronounced the 'r's in all
positions with a uvular r unique in England to to the
North East). From your spelling of good as gurd and
also you wrote feather as -er or -ah does this mean
this 'r' is disappearing in the region or are my
sources incorrect?

Gary

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.26 (06) [E]

Criostoir wrote:

> I can say with certainty that
> the Nottingham variants derive almost entirely from a
> West Germanic base (although phonology retains
> substantial North Germanic remnants, I'm certain).
> Vocabulary in particular is heavily influenced by what
> appears to be either Zeelandic; grammar is less
> obvious.

I think that in respect to vocabulary, you could
put the lable 'ingvaeonic' on these northern English
variants you mentioned. I mean, you say that voca-
bulary is heavily influenced by Zeelandic and ?Frisian?
(I think you forgot a word there). These languages
are about the most 'ingvaeonic' of all present day
(mainland) West Germanic languages.

> My question is this: if Nottingham English is
> descdended almost entirely from a Franconian or
> Ingvaeonic mileau (someone will have to precisely
> reiterate the differences to me again, I'm afraid),
> does any of it at all descend from the Scandinavian
> (presumably proto-Danish or Jutish) spoken in the
> Danelaw?

When I was on the Shetlands, I was surprised to
hear the same word for 'back' being used as in
Zeelandic: _rik_ (I believe it is spelled _rigg_ in
Shetlandic). This _rigg_ in Shetlandic is said to be
of Norse descent, but if the same word was to be
known in Nottingham English as well, would it
be a Norse or Northern Germanic loan or an Ing-
vaeonic ('Zeelandic') one? I think it is very difficult
to tell if certain elements or words in a language
clearly derive from another certain language. Only
relatively young borrowings can easily be traced, I
guess.

Regards,

Marco

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 14:45:34 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 07:45:34 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.27 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.074534.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 27.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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From: "luc.hellinckx at pandora.be" <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Saxon immigration

Beste leeglanners,

Just a guess...could the "wok" used in "wok-een" (meaning "who") not be
the regional pronounciation of "welk" (D), "which" (E), "welche" (G) ?
I remember hearing people from the southern part of Western Flanders say
:
"Wok esjt ?" which could be translated in :
"Wat is er ?" (D)
"Was ist los ?" (G)
"What's the matter ?" (E)
"Welk" does not exist in my Brabantish either, depending on gender, one
always hears :
"de waezn ?" (M) (male)
"de waes ?" (M) (female)
"t waes ?" (M) (neutral)
This "waes" actually stands for "wiens" (D), and "wie" (D) is
consequently pronounced as "wae" (M).
Also this : I remember reading this relatively new book a year or two
ago that dealt with the subject of how the linguistic border came about
in Belgium...and it stated that one of the earliest waves (there were
several) of colonisation that "struck" Western Belgium happened by sea
and originated in Northern Germany. Unfortunately I cannot exactly
remember the dates but if I must guess I should say this happened
roughly during the third or fourth century (AC), when the Roman empire
was already weakening...not that it was ever very strong felt I think in
those marshes *s*.
When I'm back home I can give you more information regarding that
(interesting) book. The writer's name was something like "Lemaire" or
"Lamarq" I believe...and I think the "Davidsfonds" was a co-promoter.

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Luc,

Interesting theory!

_Welk_ [vE.(l)k] ~ _weck_ 'which' does exist in Lowlands Saxon.  Note
the possible deletion of the /l/.  So, I can see that *_welk een_ 'which
one' could change into _wokeen_ 'who'.

However, I vaguely remember someone once advancing a different theory
about _wokeen_.  I'll have to dig around for it.

Ah!  Found it: March 07, 2001, from our good friend Marco Evenhuis, and
it's *not* a different theory but the same:

> > > > From: R. F. Hahn [sassisch at yahoo.com]
> > >
> > > Below the versions in my Limburgish from Vliermaal
> > > (Sorry it's not really an etymological contribution)
> > >
> > > > /(wou)kein/ wokeen ~ keen 'who'
> > > > (cf. /kein(ein)/ keen(een) 'none', 'no one', 'nobody')
> > > > (cf. NL wie, Afr. wie 'who')
> > > > (cf. D wer 'who')
> > > Li: "wi-e"
> > WF: wa('t)
> Z: wie, older form: welke?n; gine?n 'none', 'no one'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 18:45:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:45:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.114514.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

S======================================================================
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From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.26 (05) [E]

Holger wrote:
>No doubt such a comparative list can be helpful for several purposes but
>I
>think it can also mislead because it doesn't mention that in distinct
>languages a word can undergo a different developement. For example: In
>Eastern Friesland Low Saxon the word for skin is "hu:d" but we also have
>the word "skin" and this is exactly the same word as in English but it
>has
>developed a modified meaning (= dandruff, scurf, peeled skin). Somewhere
>on
>the table I read the word "vent" for "man, male person". This word
>(fent)
>also exists in EFLS but it means "boy".
>According to the situation, the intention of the speaker etc. there are
>several possibilities for example to express "to kill" or "to murder"
>but
>most of them aren't one word but expressions that can be considered to
>be
>phraseologisms. This is true for a lot of other expressions, too. But
>these
>won't ever been picked up into such a comparative list (don't explain
>why -
>I know) but they are very characteristic for the language (especially
>the
>non-standardized languages.
>Nevertheless I'll mail a EFLS version of the list.

The rule of this Swadesh game is to choose the commonest word, semantic
shifts don't count. There may be two equally often used lexemes with the
same meaning, then there is a procedure for this case, too (they both
count). The idea is to compare how much of the inherited Germanic (in
this
case) vocabulary survived. The method is based on the theory that
changes in
the core vocabulary occur at the same rate. Then, supposedly, we can
measure
how long ago the languages started developing separately. There is a
formula
with logs that I don't remember, but it can be looked up in any intro
book
on comparative studies. Ideally, it's like carbon dating.
I'm sorry about this long explanation, but I thought it might be useful
for
the people who contribute data on their native languages and are "just
speakers" without any linguistic training - that is the best kind of
speakers:)
It would be fascinating to see what the lists would look like for such a
closely related and constantly contacting group.

For some mysterious reasons I haven't been able to send my posting about
the
"horse sound". The first time it got lost, so maybe there is more to it
than
bad luck... Anyway, last week somebody (sorry, I can't remember who it
was)
mentioned that in his area if they want to tell a horse to stop, they
say
RRRRR! This sound is believed to have come from Russia along with a
breed of
horses.
The sound used in Russian for that purpose is a partially devoiced
bilabial
vibrant, transcribed as "tpru". My question was: What is the exact
quality
of the RRRR! sound?

Regards,
Leonard Okhotchinski

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Leonard,

Sorry again about the lost (?) submission.  I don't know what happened
there.

Thank you very much for the explanation (above).  No apologies
required.  It's a great introduction/refresher for us, and your input
now and always is very much appreciated.

I'll put some more data into the table sometime later today.
(http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm)

Leonard, you wrote ...

> The rule of this Swadesh game is to choose the commonest word,
> semantic shifts don't count.

I think this has been the problem for one of us, and in some cases it
*may* be difficult to tell which is most common.

So you are saying then, that we should find *cognates* if you say
"semantic shifts don't count"?

As you can see, Holger (Eastern Friesland) put several possibilities in
some cases.  For instance, under 017 ("man") he writes _ke:erl,
manminsk(e), man_.  I (Northern) wrote just _Mann_, but I could also
have given _Keerl, Kierl, Mannsminsch, Mann_.  Holger wrote under 010
("many") _'n b?elt, f??l, mennigh, mennergh_, where I wrote just _veel_
but could have written _'n Barg, 'n groot Deel, veel, 'n H?mpel, 'n
Hupen, gewaltig, asig, mennig_.  Should I have written _mennig_ because
it is a cognate of English _many_?  I had just "instinctively" chosen
_Mann_ and _veel_ because I felt they were "basic" (even if someone may
prove that they are not used as frequently as alternatives by some
speakers.

An example is to choose Lowlands Saxon _mennig_ for 'many' because it is
a cognate of "many", although _mennig_ is more often used to denote
something more specialized like "many a ..." (similar to German
_manche(r/s)_.  I guess another such case would be -- I am not sure if
it was you among others who shares my interest in Yiddish -- to choose
for Yiddish _fil_ for "many/much" if German _viel_, Lowlands Saxon
_veel_, Dutch _veel_, etc., are already listed.  In my experience (and
in my less than perfect usage) _fil_ may be used less than _a sakh_ (_a
sach_) to denote "many/much" in Yiddish.  So, would I have to enter
_fil_ rather than _a sakh_ if we had a Yiddish column?  As you can tell,
I thought I knew but now feel a bit confused.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 18:47:23 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 11:47:23 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.114723.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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=======================================================================

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language varieties"

> From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at YAHOO.CO.UK>
> Subject: Language Samples
>
> The modern Northumbrian language sample - I'm fascinated by some of the
> similarities between my language & others. It would be great if some of
> this could be put together in some sort of publication.
>
> ENGLISH -   Northumbrian
> 011: one - wern
> 018: person - porson
> 026: root - ruoot
> 030: blood - blood, blurd
> 031: bone - bane, burn
> 037: hair - hi'er
> 043: tooth - tooth, tuith
> 072: sun - surn
> 077: stone - sturn, stane
> 084: burn - born
> 097: good - gurd

Glenn,

I'm afraid the above spellings leave me completely puzzled,
especially the "ur". How is this pronounced - surely not
with the breathy, uvular "r" of Northumbian?

Such things as "hi'er" and "ruoot" leave me with no basis
for comparison at all!

Could you possibly put these into the characters used on
the SAMPA pages at:

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm

It's not all that easy, but maybe worth working at so you
can get the sounds of your language across on this list.

A couple of other things I've been wondering about:

> 001: I, me - I, me

Would "Aw" be a better representation of "I"? I know I just
used "I" in my Scots list, but I was just using generally
accepted spellings with no attempt to represent the pronunciation!

> 012: two - two

It's probably about 20 years since I've heard "proper"
Northumbrian spoken, but I'd thought "tweh" (by which I
mean /twE:/ in SAMPA) was how I'd heard "two" pronounced.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 27 23:30:24 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 16:30:24 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (05) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.163024.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Lamguage varieties"

> From: "Leonard Okhotchinski" <ok_lennie at hotmail.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language samples" 2002.06.26 (05) [E]
>
> The rule of this Swadesh game is to choose the commonest word, semantic

In this case I should have put "wee" rather than "smaa" for "small" in
the
list, I think - I put "smaa" because it was cognate with "small", not
because it was the comonest word.

> case) vocabulary survived. The method is based on the theory that
> changes in
> the core vocabulary occur at the same rate. Then, supposedly, we can
> measure
> how long ago the languages started developing separately. There is a
> formula
> with logs that I don't remember, but it can be looked up in any intro
> book
> on comparative studies. Ideally, it's like carbon dating.

I found the formula explained thusly on a Tolkein discussion
group at
http://www.dcs.ed.ac.uk/misc/local/TolkLang/elfling-mirror/000nn/00046 :

<quote>
The Swadesh formula is t= (log(n) x)/(2 log(n) 0.86), where t (time) is
expressed in thousands of years. Using the following data (which can, of
course, be argued with):
Total matches: 81
Cognates found: 57: Percentage = 57/81 = .704 = 70.4% shared cognates
Non-cognates found: 24: Percentage = 24/81 = .296

And applying them to the formula:
log(n) .704 = -.351
2 log(n) .86 = -.302
-.351/-.302 = 1.162 (thousand)

By this system Quenya and Sindarin are separated by about 1162 years.
<unquote>

Another article I found gives the "0.86" as a variable but
doesn't explain it, so maybe it's a calibration constant.

Anyway, after putting in "wee" instead of small, I count 94
cognates between Scots and English, and so calculate that the
two languages have been diverging for 205 years. Say, since
just after Burns.

This doesn't make much sense, does it? I don't think 17th century
Scots, when written in the common idiom, would produce a much
different wordlist from the one I supplied.

I wouldn't mind calculating this for all the Lowland languages in
the table, but first I'd like to know if I'm doing it right, and
if it really means anything at all!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org
A dinna dout him, for he says that he
On nae accoont wad ever tell a lee.
                          - C.W.Wade,
                    'The Adventures o McNab'
----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Lowlanders,

Given Leonard's and Sandy's overview of the purpose of the Swadesh list,
I wonder if the Afrikaans and Dutch (Thanks, Rudi!) entries for 018
"person" should not be _mens_ instead of _persoon_.  (See our updated
list at http://sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm)

In Lowlands Saxon, too, I could say _Persoon_ ([p(h)E.'zo:n]), but I
"instinctively" chose "basic" _Minsch_ "human being" (and Sandy chose
Scots _body_, etc.).  (I'm wondering if this item ought not be labeled
"human being," since this is obviously what they are after.)

Given what Leonard and Sandy tell us about the purpose of the list and
the calculations it is supposed to allow, it seems to me that we really
have to weigh each choice extremely carefully.  I for my part will have
to go through my own data (Northern Lowlands Saxon) again.

Sandy (above):

> In this case I should have put "wee" rather than "smaa" for "small" in
> the list, I think - I put "smaa" because it was cognate with "small",
> not because it was the comonest word.

That's pretty much the basis on which I operated.  If given the green
light, I'd go through my own data again with that awareness.  But where
to draw the line in cases of drastic semantic changes?  For instance,
English has 'wife' = 'female spouse,' cognate being L. Sax. _Wief_ =
'despicable woman' (versus _Fru_ ~ _Fro_ 'woman'), in more archaic
contexts just _Wief_ 'woman' or 'wife.'  Similarly, English "town" =
Dutch _tuin_ 'garden' = E. Fries. L. Sax. _tuun_ 'garden' = N. L. Sax.
_Tuun_ 'fence' = German _Zaun_ 'fence'.  I know.  These items don't
appear in the list (and perhaps for good reason), are only supposed to
point to potential problems with regard to cognates.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 00:25:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2002 17:25:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Technical" 2002.06.27 (06) [E]
Message-ID: <THU.27.JUN.2002.172527.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Technical

Lowlanders,

I think I just figured out ("Duh!") why we have this problem with Holger
Weigelt's "special" characters.  I always get gobbledigook in place of
his "special" characters, and many of you may too.  However, they show
up just fine in the display of our archive
(http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html).  The reason
seems to be that the archive display is now set to "Unicode" as the
default.  Our "special" characters show up as gobbledigook there until
we change the browser display to "Western," and then Holger's are
gobbledigook.  I assume that Holger has set his mailing program to
Unicode (being the only one in synch with them?), and this is why.

I wanted to do a test to see if you or most of you would have problems
if I switched my (Netscape) mailing interface to Unicode.  Unicode *is*
one of my options, but whenever I set it to Unicode it defaults back to
"Western." Darn! Why?!

Of course, since LINGUIST sets their display to Unicode and seems to
advocate it (understandably so), and I think we should support that
(allowing for more "special" characters to be used, including - hey! -
IPA), it would be really neat if we *all* switched to it (if possible).
But what would this do to the rest of our (non-Lowlandic) correspondence
(with people who do not use Unicode)?

Might a general Unicode mode even enable Sandy Fleming to see my
"special" characters?  Miracles do happen.

Any inside, advice, wisdom, solution, anyone?

Thanks!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 15:18:29 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:18:29 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.081829.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (01) [E]

A chairde,

Gary and Ron discuss the use of [v] and [f]
overpowering original /th/. This is something in
England that has spread exponentially, largely because
of the London-based media. It is now very common to
hear younger Nottingham English speakers (of which I
am one) saying "wotch yuh maaf" for "wotch yuh maath"
(watch your mouth). "th" rather than "dh" seems to be
more easily affected.

The same goes for the shift from terminal [l] to a [w]
sound, although Nottingham in particular received a
large wave of Polish migration after the war and I
have often wondered if this change was brought about
as a result.

I haven't seen much evidence of Australians confusing
/th/ with [v] or [f], Ron. My fiancee doesn't do it,
and she's moved between New South Wales, Tasmania and
latterly Western Australia her whole life. I never
seen any examples of it in Kalgoorlie where I live,
although the town is considered quite "ocker Aussie"
(i.e., retaining unaffected pronunciations) in its
dialect. I haven't heard it in Perth when I visit that
city once every couple of months either. There is a
huge dialect difference between Western Australia and
the eastern states (which is now being diluted due to
television).

Having said all that, my fiancee's cousin's husband is
a Sydney man of Lebanese birth, and he does regularly
substitute [v] and [f] for /th/ phonemes. Apparently
this has formed a whole new dialect in the Sydney area
since the late 1970s. He is immensely proud of this as
it marks him out as a "Leb" and Sydneysider. More
power to him!

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Chris.

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (01) [E]

A chairde,

You're right, Marco, I did entirely leave Frisian off
my "relatives of Nottingham English" list - West
Frisian at least. I didn't want to be mocked in case I
had made a huge assuming mistake. One of my best
friends is Frisian and I was surprised at first how
much Frisian I could understand, and how a lot of the
grammar made a lot of sense to me, even if it was
archaic-sounding (mind you, the same could be said of
Norwegian when I first heard it). Most northern
English variants used to have (and some still do) a
markedly different grammar to standard English,
precisely because it's Ingvaeonic in origin. The best
example I can think of immediately is "Do I not like
that!" for "I don't like that!" To a northerner this
makes complete sense; to a southerner it is of course
a completely different language, or at least sounds
like a rhetorical question.

Unfortunately for northern English, most of this
grammar is giving way to "standard English" forms.

As for "rigg" - it isn't in Nottingham English. The
word for back is "bakk" (with /kk/ representing, I
think, a [q] sound). I'm not too sure about parts of
the body in Nottingham English. I have spent a lot of
my life away from Nottingham and a lot of the terms I
heard my stepfather's father and other elderly people
using I would have considered "quaint" and not used.
About the only ones I still use are "tab" (ear) and
"gob" (mouth; probably a loan from Irish anyway).


That's precisely the problem with Nottingham English.
It is being "quainted" out of existence. It is bizarre
to see children talking in true Nottingham English
(grammar, vocabulary and all) only when they're
messing around with each other (and particularly to
younger children) - as if it's a mood language. Most
of the rest of the time they speak standard English
with minimal Nottingham English grammatical
interference but with strong Nottingham English
phonology.

By the way, Marco - does Frisian or Zeelandic have the
grammatical possibility "I ain't not never done nowt"
(I didn't do it [HEAVILY EMPHATIC]) that we do in
Nottingham English? (Although I should write it as "A
yenn not nevuh dunn noewt" to be faithful to the
phonology.)

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Chris.

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.27 (05) [E]

Ron wrote:

> Given what Leonard and Sandy tell us about the purpose of the list and
> the calculations it is supposed to allow, it seems to me that we really
> have to weigh each choice extremely carefully.  I for my part will have
> to go through my own data (Northern Lowlands Saxon) again.

I did the same for Zeelandic. For West-Flemish, I took the
list posted by Luc and had a second look at that as well. I
did that with the help of two informants of the 'Woorden-
boek van de Vlaamse dialecten', the Dictionary of Flemish
dialects, a project of the university of Ghent.
BTW: I happened to run into these two informants last
night in a pub in Middelburg. They are touring the 'Flemish
periphery' (as they called it) this summer, concentrating on
linguistic similarities between West-Flanders, Zeeland,
French Flanders and some coastal towns of the provinces
of North and South Holland. A very 'ingvaeonic' vacation
for those two, I would say.
I posted the two lists privately to Ron. I am looking forward
for some (especially West-Flemish) feedback on them.

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language Varieties

Dear All

Marco wrote:

>When I was on the Shetlands, I was surprised to
>hear the same word for 'back' being used as in
>Zeelandic: _rik_ (I believe it is spelled _rigg_ in
>Shetlandic). This _rigg_ in Shetlandic is said to be
>of Norse descent, but if the same word was to be
>known in Nottingham English as well, would it
>be a Norse or Northern Germanic loan or an Ing-
>vaeonic ('Zeelandic') one?

There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
word.

Gary

----------

From: Glenn Simpson <westwylam at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: language varieties

Language Varieties
Gary wrote -

Dear all

Glenn wrote:

>097: good - gurd

Glenn - quick question - I thought Northumbrian
English was rhotic (pronounced the 'r's in all
positions with a uvular r unique in England to to the
North East). From your spelling of good as gurd and
also you wrote feather as -er or -ah does this mean
this 'r' is disappearing in the region or are my
sources incorrect?

Gary

Thanks for the question. As I said to Sandy, the
'rolled' 'r' is sadly dying out, virtually no one
under 50-ish uses it any more. When the 'r' is used
the language has a very rhythmic, 'Germanic' feel to
it. What is happening now is that the Tyneside version
of Northumbrian is becoming the main variant of the
language, although this doesn't explain the
disappearance of the 'r' because it was used on
Tyneside as well. I think it has just gone out of
fashion, probably because of education and media
influences. It's too guttural sounding.

My use of the 'ur' sound (i.e. 'gurd'), which I'm
afraid has confused some Lowlanders (sorry), is modern
Northumbrian. I suspect that it is the result of
Northumbrian's trying to say the Standard English word
but without much success because of the strong
regional accent.

The problem is there are still several different
spoken versions of the language (despite what I said
before), which makes it difficult to standardise
spelling. I use the West Tyne / Tyne Valley version
but even here there are subtle differences between
towns only a few miles away. It's even more
complicated when talking about the Durham area!

On a wider note - preserving the older Northumbrian is
fine (that's what our language society does!) - BUT I
think it's important to highlight to people how the
language is spoken now! I don't want to give a false
impression. I will in the future use older and new
forms.

Keep-ahaad,

Glenn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Chris,

I lived in Perth and Fremantle (Western Australia) for long time
(1970s-early 1980s).  Yes, there was a lot of influx from the Eastern
States at the time, and, yes, some of the young people that then used
[v] and [f] for [D] and [T] where Sydneysiders.  However, some of them
were locals.  Perhaps it was a case of spread from more "with-it"
Sydneysiders, and maybe it was short-lived, but it *was* noticeable.

Lowlanders,

As for the Swadesh list, here is another case of a cognate with a strong
semantic shift: English "small" and Lowlands Saxon _small_ [sma.l]
'narrow' (vs _l?tt_ 'small', 'little').  So, how do you handle this?

Also, Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Plautdietsch) has _w?a_ and some other
dialects (mostly of younger people) also use _wer_ for 'who' now,
apparently borrowed from German _wer_ (vs native _wokeen_).  How does
that influence the results?  How do you distingish between digergence
and convergence if German were on this list?

Gary,

> There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
> the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
> 'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
> natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
> a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
> something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
> speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
> 'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
> English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
> surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
> word.

Lowlands Saxon has _R?gg_ [rYC] 'back' (usually misspelled as _R?ch_, vs
plural _R?ggen_ ['rYgN=]) and _Br?gg_ [brYC] (usually misspelled as
_Br?ch_, vs plural _Br?ggen_ ['brYgN=] -- Hello! Can you say "final
fricativization"?).

Marco,

I have added your lists.  Thanks.

http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/lowlands/swadesh.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 15:23:54 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:23:54 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.28 (02) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.082354.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]

Ron wrote:

>So we get:
>
>English:                Lowlands
>Mainland Scots:         Lawlands
>Ulster Scots:           Lallans
>Shetlandic:             Laich Laands

I think it's worth pointing out here that _laich_ is a general Scots
word, not
uniquely Shetlandic. (There is a theory that the only 'lake' in
Scotland, the
Lake of Menteith, is a mistranscription of Laich of Menteith - ie. the
low land
where the _loch_ lies.) On the other hand, I am not aware of a word
'law'
(which in my dialect should be pronounced 'laa' [la:]) in Shetlandic. I
think
that 'laich lands' would do equally well for general Scots, but I can't
see
'laa lands' meaning anything in Shetland. (Sometimes such differences
between,
say, Shetlandic, Scots and Ullans are as much owing to the choice of
translators as to substantial differences in the dialects or languages.)

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 15:25:19 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 08:25:19 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (03) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.082519.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: Holger Weigelt <platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE>
Subject: LL-L "Numerals" 2002.06.25 (03) [E]

>From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
>Subject: Numbers!
>
>Dear Ron / Lowlanders
>
>It was with great interest that I read the letter of Luc Hellinckx and
>his
>various expressions, and also the responses that his letter generated.
>
>With the same aim in mind as Luc, that is to choose universal words that
>highlight the subtle differences between the lowlands languages, I have
>decided to compile a list of numbers, as these words are generally quite
>similar.
>
>I have so far translated this list into English, Dutch and German, but
>my
>knowledge of Frisian and Low Saxon is presently far from complete so I
>will
>need some help from the other members in preparing this table.

Hello David !
Here the numbers in the Eastern Friesland Low Saxon variant.
(Because of display problems I write special letters as their names +
diacritics in square brackets. Long vowels are followed by a colon - the
correct character is the vowel with a stroke above. The ae-ligature of
the
alternative spelling means the same sound as denoted by this letter in
IPA-
writing)
Please mention that ~ei~ [EI] in the alternative spelling means an other
sound than ~ei~ [aI] in the German based orthography.
The numerals 13-19 show an interesting irregularity because the long
~a:j~
in ta:jn should regularly be changed to short ~ai~ not to ~ei~ which is
the
short equivalent to long ~[a-Umlaut]j~ (regular example: dr[a-Umlaut]j /
dreihunnert = 3 / 300).
There are some local variations as well. For example: tw[a-Umlaut]j
mostly
sounds [tvE:I] but in some areas You can also hear [tvIEI]. In my
listing
below I only present the most widespread "standard"-pronounciation.
>
>      ENGLISH    Eastern Friesland Low Saxon
           alternative / "traditional" German based orthography /
pronounciation
>
>1     one        [a-Umlaut]ien / een
>2     two        tw[a-Umlaut]j / twee  [tvE:I]
>3     three      dr[a-Umlaut]j / dree     [drE:I]
>4     four       f[2x ae-ligature] /veer
>5     five       f[i+accent circonfl.]w / fief
>6     six        s[a-Umlaut]es / sess [zE:@s]
>7     seven      s[2x o-Umlaut]ven / s??ven (speak: s[long o-Umlaut]m)
>8     eight      a:cht / acht
>9     nine       ne:gen / negen
>10    ten        ta:jn / tein
>11    eleven     elm / elm
>12    twelve     twalm / twalm
>13    thirteen   dartein / dartein [speak: datEIn]
>14    fourteen   fe(r)tein / vertein [speak: fEtEIn]
>15    fifteen    fi:ftein / fieftein
>16    sixteen    ('t) sestein / sestein
>17    seventeen  ('t) s[2x o-Umlaut]mtein / s??ventein
>18    eighteen   achtein / achtein
>19    nineteen   ne:gentein / negentein
>20    twenty     twintergh / twintig
>30    thirty     da:rtergh / dartig
>40    forty      f[ae-ligature]rtergh / veertig
>50    fifty      fi:ftergh / fieftig
>60    sixty      't sestergh / sestig
>70    seventy    't s[2x o-Umlaut]mtergh / s??ventig
>80    eighty     't aghenterg / tachentig (speak: tangtergh)
>90    ninety     't ne:gentergh / negentig (speak: t-ne:ngtergh)
>100   hundred    hunnert / hunnert

Regards
Holger

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Fri Jun 28 23:07:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2002 16:07:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (04) [E]
Message-ID: <FRI.28.JUN.2002.160727.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 28.JUN.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 Web Site: <http://www.geocities.com/sassisch/rhahn/lowlands/>
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
=======================================================================

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (03) [E]

Holger added the Eatern Frisian LS numbers to
David's list. Time to do the same for Zeelandic.
Note that Zeelandic has suffix -e for numerals
when used as a substantive:

Z:
"Ikke ? vuuf kinders"
"'Oevee zei je?"
"Vuuve"

E:
"I've got five children"
"How much did you say?"
"Five"

>From twenty onwards, numbers used to get
_'t_ before them ('t veertig; 't vuuftig). Older
people sometimes still pronounce the _'t_, but
younger people don't, except for 90: _tnegentig_.
Although the _'t_ is gone, you can still tell that it
was once there, because the t sharpened the z's and
v's to s's and f's (so: _feertig_ in stead of _veertig_).

Now the numbers (when used as a substantive):

> >1     one        e?ne
> >2     two        twe?e
> >3     three      driee
> >4     four       vieere
> >5     five       vuuve
> >6     six        zesse
> >7     seven      zevene
> >8     eight      achte
> >9     nine       negene
> >10    ten        tieene
> >11    eleven     elve
> >12    twelve     twelve, twaolve
> >13    thirteen   dertieene
> >14    fourteen   veertieene
> >15    fifteen    vuuftieene
> >16    sixteen    zestieene
> >17    seventeen  zeventieene
> >18    eighteen   achttieene
> >19    nineteen   negentieene
> >20    twenty     twintig
> >30    thirty     dartig, dertig
> >40    forty      feertig
> >50    fifty      fuuftig
> >60    sixty      sestig
> >70    seventy    seventig
> >80    eighty     tachentig
> >90    ninety     tnegentig
> >100   hundred    'onderd

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: "David Elsworth" <david_elsworth at hotmail.com>
Subject: spellings.

Ron wrote:

Gary,

>There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
>the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
>'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
>natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
>a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
>something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
>speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
>'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
>English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
>surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
>word.

Lowlands Saxon has _R?gg_ [rYC] 'back' (usually misspelled as _R?ch_, vs
plural _R?ggen_ ['rYgN=]) and _Br?gg_ [brYC] (usually misspelled as
_Br?ch_, vs plural _Br?ggen_ ['brYgN=] -- Hello! Can you say "final
fricativization"?).

When I was living in South Yorkshire in Northern England, I used to live
in
a place called Worsbrough Bridge, which was commonly known by the locals
as
the, 'brigg,' referring to the bridge part of the name.

In this part of Yorkshire, there is a dialect of English spoken, known
as
,"Broad Yorkshire." I have often wondered if this dialect is in any way
related to the frisian language and its curved vowel sounds. Fior
example,
my Uncle Alan would often pronounce school as skoo-il. The word, 'team,'
as
another example would be pronounced as tie-em. Other examples evade me
at
this present time as I have been away from the area for quite a while.
However, it would be interesting to see if any other members could shed
any further light on this observation.

Regards
David Elsworth.

----------

From: "Marco Evenhuis" <evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E]

Criostoir asked:

> By the way, Marco - does Frisian or Zeelandic have the
> grammatical possibility "I ain't not never done nowt"
> (I didn't do it [HEAVILY EMPHATIC]) that we do in
> Nottingham English? (Although I should write it as "A
> yenn not nevuh dunn noewt" to be faithful to the
> phonology.)

I cannot tell for Frisian, but in Zeelandic you can say
something like "Ik ? dat nooit nie gedae" (litt. I have
not never done that). It might be Standard Dutch
as well ( only colloquial I guess).

Gary wrote:

> I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the natural
> development of the word in Scots, rather than
> a Norse loan

I believe you right away! I was told it was a Norse
loan by a very proud and 'nordic-orientated' Shet-
lander... I don't have the right sources here to
check that...

> I think Scots uses
> something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
> speakers if that's horribly misspelt!)

I frequented the 'Brig o' Blair', a pub in Blairgowrie,
when I lived in Coupar Angus a few years ago.
Older Zeelandic has _brigge_ for bridge. There is
a village called _brigdamme_ ('bridge at the dam')
only a few km's from where I live.
So we've got:

Zeelandic - Scots - Shetlandic - English
brigge - brig - ? - bridge
rik - ? - rigg - (ridge)

Regards,

Marco

----------

From: margl <margaret_luck at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E] = th vs v or f

From: Criostoir O Ciardha  wrote -
Gary and Ron discuss the use of [v] and [f]
overpowering original /th/. This is something in
England that has spread exponentially, largely because
of the London-based media. It is now very common to
hear younger Nottingham English speakers (of which I
am one) saying "wotch yuh maaf" for "wotch yuh maath"
(watch your mouth). "th" rather than "dh" seems to be
more easily affected.

The same goes for the shift from terminal [l] to a [w]
sound, although Nottingham in particular received a
large wave of Polish migration after the war and I
have often wondered if this change was brought about
as a result.

I haven't seen much evidence of Australians confusing
/th/ with [v] or [f], Ron. My fiancee doesn't do it,
and she's moved between New South Wales, Tasmania and
latterly Western Australia her whole life. I never
seen any examples of it in Kalgoorlie where I live,
although the town is considered quite "ocker Aussie"
(i.e., retaining unaffected pronunciations) in its
dialect. I haven't heard it in Perth when I visit that
city once every couple of months either. There is a
huge dialect difference between Western Australia and
the eastern states (which is now being diluted due to
television).

I have found that a lot of Australians DO confuse 'th' with 'f' or 'v'.
In one of my stories, a six year old girl spelt 'with' as
'wiv'; her mother was most upset and kept saying that of course she knew
how to spell the word; however both of her
parents say 'wiv' all the time, and obviously do not realise that they
do so.  The father is Polish and the mother Dutch.

In another incident, I was helping a 13 year old with reading.  She had
a lot of trouble dsitinguishing 'th' and 'ff'.  I asked
her to spell 'pith' and she wrote 'piff'; I had to repeat the word 4
times before she worked out what I was asking.  She
also is Polish.

English is one of very few languages that has the 'th' sound.  I believe
Icelandic is another.

best wishes

Marg

[Margaret Luck]

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 29 16:08:14 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:08:14 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.29 (01) [E]
Message-ID: <SAT.29.JUN.2002.090814.0700.LOWLANDSL@LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>

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From: Thomas <t.mcrae at uq.net.au>
Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.28 (02) [E]

on 29/6/02 1:23, John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk> wrote

> Subject: LL-L "Semantics" 2002.06.06 (06) [E]
>
> Ron wrote:
>
>> So we get:
>>
>> English:                Lowlands
>> Mainland Scots:         Lawlands
>> Ulster Scots:           Lallans
>> Shetlandic:             Laich Laands
>
> I think it's worth pointing out here that _laich_ is a general Scots
> word, not
> uniquely Shetlandic.
I can confirm that. The old Advocates Library in Edinburgh Scotland
(founded
by James IV) had a storage area set below the main library still known
in
the 1950's as The Laich Hall when I briefly worked there.
Regards
Tom
Tom Mc Rae PSOC
Brisbane Australia
"The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude,
To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang,
And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang."
>>From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess'

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 29 16:16:02 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:16:02 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.29 (02) [E]
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From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.28 (01) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Gary,
>
> > There is however also the word 'ridge' in English with
> > the meaning of the back of a hill etc., cognate with
> > 'rigg'. I thought the Shetlandic 'rigg' was the
> > natural development of the word in Scots, rather than
> > a Norse loan - I could be wrong! I think Scots uses
> > something like 'brigg' (sorry Sandy and other Scots
> > speakers if that's horribly misspelt!) cognate with
> > 'bridge', in a similar development. If Nottingham
> > English has 'rigg' and not 'ridge' I would be
> > surprised, and this would probably point to a loan
> > word.
>
> Lowlands Saxon has _R?gg_ [rYC] 'back' (usually misspelled as _R?ch_,
vs
> plural _R?ggen_ ['rYgN=]) and _Br?gg_ [brYC] (usually misspelled as
> _Br?ch_, vs plural _Br?ggen_ ['brYgN=] -- Hello! Can you say "final
> fricativization"?).
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Unless I'm mistaken, "ruck" in English "rucksack" (knapsack, backpack)
is from the same root.  And "rucksack" has been borrowed into Russian as
"ryukzak."

Kevin Caldwell

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Kevin,

_Rucksack_ is a Swiss Alemannic loanword in German, from _Ruggsack_
(which would be *_R?ckensack_ if it were Standard German, *_R?ggsack_ or
*_R?chsack_ if it were Lowlands Saxon).  Alemannic varieties, especially
those of the south (mostly Switzerland, some in far southwestern German
and in farwestern Austria) did not umlaut as much, and _Rugge_ or _Rugg_
are the words for 'back'.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 18:13:27 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:13:27 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.30 (01) [E]
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From: "Leslie Decker" <leslie at volny.cz>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.29 (02) [E]

On a slightly tangential note, does anyone know the basis for the
Russian
'brjuki' meaning 'trousers?'  It seems to me to have come from a
Germanic
source (Dutch 'broek' English 'breeches, britches').  Maybe from
sailors?
The 'i' is just a plural ending.

Thanks,

Leslie Decker

----------

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.29 (02) [E]

A chairde,

Re: all this discussion of "rugg" versus "back" - a
very common dog breed in Australia (indeed, my next
door neighbour has one) is a "ridge back" (because it
has an extra "back" (ridge) of fur atop its back),
thereby bringing both lexical variants together and
illustrating the way they are used in standard English
at least.

Interesting how such things evolve.

Go raibh maith agaibh,

Chris.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Hi, Leslie!  Nice to hear from you (above).

Too bad I don't have access to Mueller's Russian dictionary right now,
because it tends to give fairly good etymological information.

Off the top of my head, my first guess was that Russian _brjuki_
'trousers' (plural form only, theoretically from *_brjuk_) is a Dutch
loan (< _broek_), possibly from the time of Tzar Pjotr I ("Peter the
Great," 1672-1725) who tried to turn Mother Russia into a Western lady
and championed things Dutch (where "Western" equaled "Dutch" for some
time, as it did in Indonesia and Japan).  Phonologically and
historically speaking, this would make sense, kind of ...

Modern English _breeches_ ~ _britches_ comes from Old English (*_br??ke_
*_breeke_ *_breec(h)e_ >) _br?c_, the umlauted plural form of _br?c_
(thus is, technically speaking, a double plural form, Old + Modern).
The singular form was still used in Middle English.  The Old Saxon
cognate is _br?k_ (probably pronounced like or similar to OE _br?c_).  I
am not aware of this word surviving in Modern Lowlands Saxon, the direct
descendant of Old Saxon.  If it existed, I would expect *_Brook_
*[bro.Uk] ~ *_Brauk_ *[bra.Uk], with the plural forms *_Br??k_ *[br9.Ik]
~ *_Br?uk_ [brO.Ik] (< */brouke/).  I am not sure about this word's
survival in Middle (Lowlands) Saxon either.  If it survived, the plural
form would probably be *_broke_ ~ *_br?ke_ (= */brouke/ ~ /br??ke/) at a
time when umlauting was beginning to be shown orthographically.  Old
(High) German has _bruoh_ which I would expect to be _Bruch_, pl.
_Br?che_, if it survived.  (Modern Lowlands Saxon and Standard German do
have such words, but they denote something different: 'low-lying, marshy
land (along) a brook or another type of watercourse)' (related to
'break'?)

This group of words (including Old Norse _br?k_) is supposed to go back
to Germanic *_br?ks_ (= */brook+s/, or */brouk+s/?, consider Modern
Icelandic _br?k_ [broUk] 'underpants').

As you may know, the medieval Hanseatic Trading League that dominated
the Baltic Sea and had contacts with Russia, had Middle Saxon as its
lingua franca.  It is therefore not entirely inconceivable that Russian
borrowed the umlauted plural form of the Saxon word at that time, which
might explain _brjuki_ rather than (Dutch _broek_ >) *_bruki_.  However,
this is merely a guess to be considered.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 18:22:31 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 11:22:31 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.30 (02) [E]
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

I wrote about Russian _brjuki_ 'trousers':

> This group of words (including Old Norse _br?k_) is supposed to go back
> to Germanic *_br?ks_ (= */brook+s/, or */brouk+s/?, consider Modern
> Icelandic _br?k_ [broUk] 'underpants').

And then there is, of course, the third possibility of _brjuki_ going
all the way back to notable but until recently understated Swedish,
i.e., Eastern Viking, "Russ" (cf. Finnish _ruotsalainen_ 'Swedish'),
presence and influences in parts of Russia.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From sassisch at yahoo.com  Sun Jun 30 22:50:56 2002
From: sassisch at yahoo.com (Lowlands-L)
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 15:50:56 -0700
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.30 (03) [E]
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From: globalmoose at t-online.de (Global Moose Translations)
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.06.30 (01) [E]

That dog would be a "Rhodesian Ridgeback". They do have a "ridge" of
hair
that stands up on their backs. They are probably fluent in Afrikaans,
too...

Cheers,
Gabriele Kahn

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Gabriele,

I am told that there *is* such a thing as an "Australian ridgeback dog,"
apparently an Australian sub-breed of the so-called "Rhodesian ridgeback
dog."  The latter apparently does not hail from Zimbabwe (formerly
Rhodesia) at all but from South Africa, where it was bred from the
so-called "Hottentot dog" (i.e., Nama/Damara dog) and used to be known
as "African lion dog."

It so happens that last night I watched a part of a dog show (being
allergic and having to admire pets indirectly once in a while) and could
see that it is only a seeming ridge.  The hair does not really stand
up.  There is merely two strips of darker fur on either side of a
narrower light-colored one along the backbone, which creates the optical
illusion of a ridge.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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