LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.22 (03) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JUN.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: <burgdal32 at mac.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.06.19 (03) [D/E]

> From: frank verhoft <frank_verhoft at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language varieties
>
> Beste Luc, dear all
>
> As Marco once wrote, the use of the word "Flemish"
> sometimes is very confusing... and i'm sorry, but i
> don't understand very well what you mean by the words
> "Flemish" and (or versus??) "Dutch" in your mail.
Dear Frank,
In the lowlands there were a lot of tribes who were settled some two
millenniums ago.Tacitus mentiones 'Kelten' and 'Germanen'(He mixes them
up a
bit) in Western-Europe, three century's before the big migrations.A few
century's later we speak of 'Franken, Saksen, Friezen, Angelen...'.Dutch
grew as a conglomerate of all these tribe-languages, with the south
regions
(Frisia, later Flanders(that's an other story)) being the
center.Therefore
Flemish is for me the language of the historical Flanders from
'Bonen'(Boulogne-France) to Zeeuws-Vlaanderen. When I look at the
earliest
words i find them much closer related to my Flemish than to Dutch.With
'Vlaams' having so meany meanings it is indeed preferable to call the
language 'Nederfrankisch' or even better 'Noordzeewestgermaans (NWG).
>
> <<<There certainly is a middle Dutch dictionnary (It's
>
> a big one in a number of volumes).<<<
>
> I meant a contemporary one :).
>
> <<<What we need is an early Dutch (early Flemish)
> dictionnary. You may call it also a Franconian
> dictionnary<<<
>
> Why would we need that? The MNW already exists...
No no no, It does not. I am speaking of a dict. of the early periods,
lets
say from Roman times till 1200! I find it very strange that it doesn't
exist
yet:
-I've been reading  a French etymological dict. and found a lot of
words(+/_400) of  Franconian origin of that early period (or Flemish or
early-Dutch or High & Low German, they mix it a lot without much
specifications). I am convinced that these 'French' words give us the
oldest
words for our NWG.
-Lex Salica(509-511)is written in Latin during the reign of Chlodovech
(Clovis is a later French translation) There are only copies left.
But there are Franconian words and sentences in it to elucidate the
laws.
The most famous word is 'Mallobergo (=maalberg=D: gerechtsplaats)
-Gregorius van Tours (Loire), 6th century,speaks in his famous book over
the
Franks, that he wants to translate his speeches into the language of the
people (theodisc= Diets= early NWG ?)
-Early English and NWG are quiet similar to me. When i look into the
Webster's dict. i discover a lot of times that they can not cope with
the
correct nominating, finding out that this old English is still very much
like my 'modern' Flemish speaking.
> A quote from the digitalized version (*my stresses*):
> "Het elektronische boek dat op de cd-rom met het icoon
> MNW aangeduid wordt, biedt de elektronische versie van
> deel 1 tot 9 van het Middelnederlandsch Woordenboek.
> Deze negen delen bevatten het eigenlijke woordenboek
> en beschrijven *grosso modo* de woordenschat van het
> Nederlands uit de periode *1200-1500*, zoals het
> gebruikt werd in de gebieden die *grotendeels*
> samenvallen met het huidige Nederland en Vlaanderen.
> Elke betekenis en elke betekenisnuance wordt steeds
> geïllustreerd met één of meer citaten uit de
> Middelnederlandse teksten die door de samenstellers
> van het MNW als bron voor het woordenboek geselecteerd
> werden."
>
> What do you mean by "early Dutch" and "early Flemish"
> and how do you distinguish between them, on which
> linguistic and or historical grounds?
> Why would we need a Franconian dictionary and how do
> you see the relation between Franconian and what you
> call "early Dutch" and (versus?) "early Flemish"?
>
> <<<Did you read the 9th-century story 'Ludwigslied'?
> Scientists say it is in Middle High German, but for me
> it could also be a Flemish variant because I can still
> read it (without having had any instructions around
> that subject)!<<<
>
> "Ludwigslied" (+/- 882) is written in OLD High German
My mistake, of corse 'OLD'!
> (Rein Franconian). There are some very good reasons
> for *linguists* to call it "Old" and "High German",
> but these criteria (the most important one being the
> second or High German sound shift) of course have
> nothing to do with you understanding the text.
> You're right in a certain way, in the same way a
> German could say that Old or Middle Dutch reminds
> him/her of a German variant.
This sound shift is a very significant one. But is the sentence
structure
not as much important?
By the way, i think imho that Europe was populated with all kinds of
different tribes who lived close to one another without mixing very
often
(thus the meany different names). Perhaps they had their specific
languagerules also. High and low German will have exist next to one
another.
Some rules are very strict. One of the caracteristics of the early Dutch
language is that the last vowel became a sjwa. But those changes, after
hundreds of years, are not yet finished! In Flanders we still say
something
between the two: Vaodre-vaodri (E Father) beste-besta (E best)
sterke-sterka
(E Strong) rike-rika (E rich).
"Ludwigslied" should be mentioned as early High German but also as NWG
or
early Dutch. This is also right for "Hildebrandslied-Gudrun-Van
Veldeke's
books-and even Beowulf being Old English or Old NWG.
>
> <<<dialects?? Languages you mean! Flemish was the
> cultural language, and a big part of the early Dutch
> arose from it as a dialect who became the cultural
> standard language afterwards.<<<
>
> No, i meant "dialects" :). Without wanting to
> (re)start a discussion about the terms "dialect" and
> "language", which imho is a pseudo problem anyway, i
> just meant something as "language variant" without any
> social, attitudinal or cultural evaluation.
> But again, i find it very difficult to understand what
> you mean by "Flemish" and "early Dutch". Could you
> please explain a bit further.
For meany people 'dialect' is something pejoratif. Only the official
languages are 'correct' for them. That's why we (lost)loose  so many
'dialects' in the 20th and 21th century's.I know meany Flemish families
who
do not want to talk Flemish anymore.
>
> <<<In West Flanders we...<<<
>
> Luc Vanbrabant??? What's in a name? ;):))
Brabant was a very common name, not only in Brabant itself. It just
means
'broekband' or the border near the brook (marsh).

Misschien was ik al iets duidelijker, maar stof voor discussie is er
zeker
nog genoeg.Wat ik schreef zijn vooral persoonlijke gedachtespinsels,
gebaseerd op historische zaken maar eigenzinnig benaderd,zeker geen
evangelie!

Groetjes,
Luc Vanbrabant ;)
Oekene

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