LL-L "Language caontacts" 2002.05.15 (02) [E]

Wed May 15 20:41:24 UTC 2002

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From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.05.13 (07) {E]

Dear Lowlanders/ leeve Leeglanner,

Ron wrote:

...There is also the English word _keel_ [ki:l] (as in 'lowest
longitudinal
timber of a boat or ship').  The Oxford and Partridge say it started as
Middle English _kele_ and is a Nordic loan; cf. Old Norse _kjölr_ (hence
/kjöl/ + masculine /_r/).  I find this just a tad hard to swallow.
Again, I would expect this to come out shifted to *_kile_ (/ii/ > /ai/)
in English.  Low Saxon has _Kiel_ [ki:l], which was borrowed into German
as _Kiel_ [ki:l].  Dutch also has _kiel_ [ki:l].  In all of these
languages, the word specifically denotes this part of a boat or ship,
except in Low Saxon where it also denotes 'wedge' ("wedge" > "keel"?).
Coincidence or origin?  Thus, in German you have Low-Saxon-derived
(post-shift) _Kiel_ [ki:l] 'keel' and native (shifted) _Keil_ [kaIl]
'wedge'.  I suspect Dutch _kiel_ to be a loan, for otherwise I would
expect *_kijl_.  But is it an English loan or a Low Saxon one?
Difficult, since Dutch has had maritime contacts with both speech
communities.  (Dutch for 'wedge' is _weg_.)  There is also the English
term 'to keelhaul' and its Low Saxon counterpart _kielhalen_ (> German
_kielholen_) and its Dutch counterpart _kielhalen_.  Which way did this
term travel?

Low Saxon, especially its coastal dialects, has many pre-modern English
loans, particularly those related to maritime business, and most of
these have made their way into German, either into specific dialects or
sociolects or all the way into Standard German.  Right off the top of my
head I can think of two loans that have not made their way into German
beyond Missingsch (Low-Saxon-rooted German): _Kru_ [kru:] '(ship's)
crew' (feminine, pl. _Kruus_ [kru:s]), and _Törn_ [t9.3n] 'turn',
'trip', 'go' (masculine, pl. _Törns_ [t9.3ns]).  In some Low Saxon
dialects of port cities and their surroundings, _Törn_, obviously
introduced by seafarers, has come to denote any trip (not only on
water), especially a short trip or an outing, in the sense of "going and
returning," i.e., "roundtrip" ("making a turn").  Furthermore, it can
also denote 'turn' as in "having a go," also '(work) shift'.  You may,
for instance, say _Nu büst du an d'n Törn_ or _Nu kümmst du an d'n Törn_
'It's your turn now', alternatively with _Reeg'_ [rE.Ij] 'row', 'line',
'queue', _Nu büst du an de Reeg'_ (cf. German _Jetzt bist du an der
Reihe_).  You might also ask, _Wenn hest du dien Törn_ 'Which (work)
shift do you have?'...

***

I made some thoughts about

1. *keel*:
Just a few days ago I got a mail from platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE . I had
asked
him to explain some East-Frisian words  that I couldn't understand. One
of
them was *päen*, which he translated to (upper German) *Füllhalter,
*pencil"
in English.
I took a look into my French dictionary and found out: *penne* (french)
=
engl. *feather* and  *cale* (french) = engl. *wedge* = low sax. *Kiel*,
upper G. *Keil". *pencil* seems to be same as *Federkiel*; and here we
get
the *-kiel* in upper German.
In Low Saxon there is another word, similar: *Süll*. It describes a
mechanism which has been used until our times to secure those big doors
of
the sheds near the coast against storm. It is formed like a big *wedge*,
and
I read a similar word in Danish (maybe *sjöll*, but I can't remember).

2. *turn*:
There should be very ancient common roots with the in German used
*Törn*: my
French Dictionary translates *to turn* with *tourne*, and that's not far
from upper German  *Turnier*, (earlier *Tournier*), *Tour* and more.
Engl.
*return* is used in low and  upper German in nearly the same meaning as
*Retoure* or adj. *retour*.

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann" <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: to complete it: LL-L "Lanuage contacts" 2002.05.13 (07)

Ron,

just to complete my last message:

upper German (low Saxon too? I don't know1) *Pinsel* seems me the same
as
(engl.) *pencil*.

Regards

Fiete

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language contacts

Fiete,

_Penn_ [pE.n] for 'pen' is used also in some non-East-Frisian dialects
of Low Saxon (Low German), and there are also Dutch and English _pen_,
originally a feather for writing.  It comes from Latin _penna_ and must
be a very old loanword.  A common Low Saxon derivation is the word
_Pennlicker_ ['pE.nlIk3] ("pen licker"), a negative word for a literate
person, or for "writer" or "bureaucrat."  An alternative word for "pen,"
especially the old-fashioned metal type, is _Poos'_ [po:Uz] ~ _Pose_
['po.Uze], and the holder is called _Posensteel_ ['po.Uzn=stE.Il].
Eastern-Friesland-specific are the derivations _Penntje_ (diminutive)
'pen' and _penntjen_ 'to write'.

Homophone and homograph _Penn_ means 'penny', 'Pfennig'.

> In Low Saxon there is another word, similar: *Süll*.

It corresponds to English "sill" ("window sill" or "door sill").  I know
Low Saxon _Süll_ [zY.l] ~ _Sull_ [zu.l] to mostly denote a (door)
threshold (German _Türschwelle_), sometimes a window sill (German
_Sims_).  In connection with doors, I am not quite sure what the
difference is between a _Süll_ (cf. German _Schwelle_) and a _Drempel_
['drE.mpl=] (cf. Dutch _drempel_).  Weren't both of them originally
planks at the bottom of a doorway?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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