LL-L "Language learning" 2002.11.22 (06) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.NOV.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
               V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2002.11.20 (05) [E/S]

Ron wrote:

 (Many a feeble attempt of mine to use Dutch
>has earned me well-meaning and welcome private feedback from Dutch speakers
>on the List. And let's not even start talking about my Scots attempts ...)

Why not? Not a lot wrong with them, as I pointed out before. Don't let my
being rude enough to correct them in public rather than private put you off
(wasn't thinking) or still less Andy's joke about revenge and middens! My
impression of your Scots is that it is at _least_ as good as some of the
stuff published in Scotland - with the important difference that yours is
likely to get better!
>
Where the sociocultural differences
>are great, you will find that native speakers will often avoid speaking
>their own language with you, because you as a stranger do not fit into the
>local social tapestry, where relative social states of speaker and listener
>demand a certain language form, forms of address, etc.  If the native
>speaker can not speak English or another "neutral" language they will often
>avoid speaking to you altogether, even where you clearly do know their
>language -- not because they are rude but because they are *afraid* of
being
>rude by committing a linguistic faux-pas.  This is frequently encountered
>for instance in Thailand, Indonesia* and Japan (*in Indonesia less so where
>Indonesian [Bahasa Indonesia] is used -- which is an interethnic lingua
>franca -- but it tends to happen with local languages, especially Javanese,
>which, like Japanese, has various registers of politeness, depending on
>relative social standing).

It's curious that this never seems to have been a problem in Shetland.
Traditionally, in Shetland, most people would address incomers (as opposed
to tourists or other people who weren't expected to be around long enough to
learn) in Shetlandic - perhaps modified, especially at first - relying on
the fact that it's similar enough to English for most people to learn to
understand most of it quickly enough. The pronouns were never a difficulty -
I always addressed English speaking kids (at that time almost all English
speakers were incomers) as 'du', and thought it very peculiar when some (not
very many) other Shetlanders would use the 'you' form to them just because
they weren't from Shetland. Generally speaking, the pronouns are only a
difficulty when there is some sort of conflict - for example, I have a first
cousin who is the same age as my mother, and this leads to some uncertainty
as to how I should address her.
>
>Oniegate, John Magnus, ...
>
>> I must confess you're right! I don't know German - beyond a smattering -
>and although when I
>> joined this list I did intend to tackle the continental Lowlands
languages
>by learning Dutch first, I
>> confess that this went the way of most of my good intentions!
>
>... its never too late to start.

Maybe not - motivation is the problem, especially with the languages of
smaller countries. I once met a Swedish waitress in a restaurant in
Scotland, and when I spoke to her in Swedish her reaction was amazement -
why on earth would anyone want to learn Swedish?

Another unfortunate aspect of this same situation is that speakers of
'small' languages are often so unaccustomed to hearing foreigners speaking
their languages that they have a very distorted impression of how well they
can do so. Most Swedes I have met have been astonished at how 'well' I could
speak Swedish on the basis of just a few words, not because my Swedish is
good - it is in fact extremely (and increasingly) limited - but because I
could speak it at all (and I suppose my accent isn't too bad). On the other
hand, some Gaels are so unaccustomed to hearing Gaelic pronounced with a
non-native accent that they will dismiss it as 'book Gaelic' even, and
perhaps especially, if it is grammatically good, whereas we are so
accustomed to hearing people speak non-native English that it would scarcely
occur to us to be disparaging about it.

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language learning

John Magnus:

> Don't let my being rude enough to correct them in public rather than
private put you off
> (wasn't thinking) or still less Andy's joke about revenge and middens!

Thanks, but it never even entered my mind that your corrections or Andy's
kidding could be rude.  On the contrary, I appreciate them, your "public"
corrections because others can learn from them also, and Andy's joke about
revenge and middens because it clearly was in the spirit of friendly jesting
and of poking fun at himself at least as much as at me.  There's nothing
wrong with lightheartedness, especially in language learning.  Don't let
fear of that cramp your style!

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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