LL-L "Language attitudes" 2002.11.25 (02) [E/S]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 25.NOV.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
               V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: derek  elder <mail at townhouse51.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: linguistic boundaries v political boundaries

My first post, after a week or so of reading others, and I hope to learn
something more about Lowlands languages. However, the traditional issue of
politics dominating language seems to be a prevalent sub-text on the site.
Forgive me if my own observations are not Lowlands based - In only speak
standard, if imperfect, German and  French, but then again, that's why I've
joined this site
My brother and I have just returned from Stuttgart after visiting our
Cologner friend there. After twelve years in the south he still insists on
speaking his near-Dutch Cologne dialect while berating the locals for their
incomprehensible Swabian, and protesting too much about the Dutch on much
the same lines as those Dutch who refuse to speak German although they can.
By the way, a similar thing to what was recounted in some posts happened to
me in Amsterdam a few years ago, when I was buying a German newspaper from a
Dutch vendor - he was incredibly hostile when I didn't understand his Dutch
accented German quickly enough!
Of course my Cologne friend denies that the Cologne dialect, as a western
middle German, is more than close to Dutch -sometimes closer than it is to
some eastern German types like Silesian or Hungarian German, both of which I
had the chance to try out in Stuttgart.
I was amused by the Alsace story,  but I know Germans who think Strassburg
is German and Parisians who wish that Strasbourg were German and the people
in the city have fun with both. The whole story of a language may not be
political, but politics determines whose languages prevail.
As an urban Central Scot who's been round the world and Scotland and back,
and even moved the fifty miles from Glasgow to Edinburgh, I know exactly
what my fellow Scots on this site are trying to achieve - how I wish there
were a standard and accepted Scots orthography. I hope this site helps them
achieve that, but for me, it's probably too late. The words and speech
patterns of my grandparents are still in my head but these are utterly
incomprehensible to my children when I use them - they are both better at
French and German and, in my teenage son's case ungrammatical English, than
at any form of Scots, be it artificial Lallans, real Doric, or simple urban
street-speak. My Grandmother would have coped in Frisian or some dialects of
Flemish with a little effort, if my memory of her speech is accurate and of
course there are many folk-tales of rural Scots soldiers in the First World
War being able to cope admirably with Flemish - 'come by the coos and ben
the hoose' being comprehensible both ways.
This is why border areas or language pockets are so interesting - I remember
being in a pub in Dusseldorf years ago, before a soccer match and trying to
speak German as well as I could in the midst of four or five distinct
versions of German (Hamburg, Rhine, Bavarian and Saarland) and being asked
by my brother to translate for him and a girl from Luxemburg, who simply
wanted not to speak German anymore. My French was the nearest she was going
to get to Luxemburgish that day.
And then there was the time in Utrecht, but that can wait..............
Hope this ramble doesn't transgress the etiquette and relevance rules too
much.
Regards,
Derek Elder

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language attitudes

Walcome, Derek!

Och, A dinna hiv ma sorras tae seek wi a pickle o yiz anent "speak streek"
(= ma ain homeart wey o sayin "subject line" in Scots, jist tae be a tait
knackie fer wir Scots freends).  ;)  "Language varieties"? "Language
politics"? "Language learning"? "Language etiquette"?  Weel, here mair lik
"Language attitudes".

As for posting guidelines, including subject lines, please see
http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm, everyone.

Derek, I find it strange that your friend insists on speaking his Cologne
dialect (*real* Ripuarian dialect or just Cologne-colored German?) in Swabia
and "berates" local Swabians for using their dialect in their homeland.  Is
he kidding, or does he have some unusual linguistic chip on his shoulder
and/or ax to grind?

I agree that the lack of coordination between ethnic, linguistic, cultural
and political boundaries keeps shaking things up.  It *is* the source of
conflict and some unfortunate attitudes.  On the other hand, imagine what
would happen if they perfectly coincided ... Wouldn't that come with more
potential danger?  I think that most minorities would be happy with simply
being given the three "R"s: Respect, Recognition and Rights -- no matter of
which countries they happen to be citizens.  Conflicts tend to arise only
where the three "R"s are not forthcoming.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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