From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:12:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:12:18 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.10.01 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>Mathieu. van Woerkom" Subject: events Luc Hellinckx wrote: > For those of you that are interested in Brabantish, I'd like to point > out that a meeting will take place on the 12th of October 2002 in > Ternat ("De Ploter", Belgium). During this day (happening once in > every two years), many Brabantish topics will be dealt with, ranging > from purely linguistic to more "playful" ones. Also, it might be interesting for those same people: next friday, october 4th there will be a presentation of the new volume of the Dictionary of Brabantish Dialects (Woordenboek van de Brabantse Dialecten - http://www.kun.nl/dialect). It will be held in "de Ghulden Roos" in Roosendaal (Roozendaol, West-Brabant). For information, please contact dr. Jos Swanenberg at j.swanenberg at let.kun.nl . Regards, Mathieu ==================================END===================================* Please submit postings to .* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at .* Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other type of format, in your submissions================================================================= ====== From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:15:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:15:19 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>Mathieu. van Woerkom" Subject: events Luc Hellinckx wrote: > For those of you that are interested in Brabantish, I'd like to point > out that a meeting will take place on the 12th of October 2002 in > Ternat ("De Ploter", Belgium). During this day (happening once in > every two years), many Brabantish topics will be dealt with, ranging > from purely linguistic to more "playful" ones. Also, it might be interesting for those same people: next friday, october 4th there will be a presentation of the new volume of the Dictionary of Brabantish Dialects (Woordenboek van de Brabantse Dialecten - http://www.kun.nl/dialect). It will be held in "de Ghulden Roos" in Roosendaal (Roozendaol, West-Brabant). For information, please contact dr. Jos Swanenberg at j.swanenberg at let.kun.nl . Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:28:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:28:44 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] My father's family comes from the nowadays Kalinigrad Oblast as well, my father was born in a place called Abschwangen in German, Absvankiai in Lithuanian. I don't believe that my surname can tell much about the ethinc origions of my father's family, it just might have been given to them by Brandenburgian tax-collectors. The surrounding villages just as Abschwangen itself are derived from old-Prussian, therefore I can assume that many of the local families are of old-Prussian ancestory though, as in whole of East Prussia, the population was mixed with settlers from all parts of Western Europe, many of them arriving for religious reasons in East Prussia. One of my forefathers stems apparantly from Salzburg as many of them did, they were religous (protestant) refugees. My aunt still spoke the old East Prussian Low Saxon, some of the words and the accent they used derived from old Prussian, such as e.g "marjell" for girl. When I hear Latvians or Lithuanians speaking German it often reminds me to the way my aunt spoke German, the relationship is all too obvious. I cannot speak or imitate the old East Prussian Low Saxon since my father died when I was two years old and I was purely raised in the Low Saxon from the Rendsborg-district in Slesvig-Holsten and partly Danish through my mother's Danish relatives. By mentality and by the way they do things most of my father's relatives remind me how people are in Scandinavia, such as the people in the Baltic States are while Slavonic people from e.g Poland have a lot more temper than the Baltic people. ---------- From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2002.09.30 (05) [D] Beste mensen, Stefaan Vermeire reageerde uitgebreid op mijn antwoord op eerdere berichten van Luc Vanbra- bant & Simon Hoare. Ik kreeg bij het lezen van het antwoord van Stefaan sterk de indruk dat hij de context van mijn bericht, dat nadrukkelijk slechts een reactie is op een eerder schrijven van Luc & Simon, enigszins verkeerd begrepen heeft. Zoals ik Stefaan's bericht lees, heeft hij menen te moeten concluderen dat ik mij af wens te zetten tegen begrippen als 'Vlaams' en 'Vlaanderen' als paraplubegrippen voor respectievelijk de Germaanse taalvarianten van noord-België en het administratieve gebied waar deze varianten gesproken worden. Dat is onjuist. In mijn schrijven probeerde ik slechts aan te geven dat Simon, die eerder aangaf verbaasd te zijn over het feit dat de niet geheel verfranste Brusselaars zich afzet- ten tegen hun 'Vlaams-zijn', terwijl de zelfs geheel ver- franste inwoners van Lille/Rijssel hun Vlaamse af- komst niet onder stoelen of banken steken en de naam Vlaming zelfs als geuzennaam gebruiken. Welnu, in die context leek het mij relevant dat inwoners van een stad als Lille, immers van oudsher onderdeel van het graafschap Vlaanderen, zich deze historische reden wel- lichtméér Vlaams voelen dan de Babrantse Brusselaars dat doen. Wanneer het dus gaat om het 'Vlaams gevoel', dat bij Rijsse- laars sterker zou leven dan bij Brusselaars (een stelling van Simon), is naar mijn mening de historische context belang- rijker dan de relatief recente (taal-)politieke ontwikkelingen wanneer men op zoek gaat naar een reden voor dat verschil in beleving. Enkele opmerkingen bij Stefaan's schrijven dan: ik schreef: > >Brussel een Vlaamse stad? Ik dacht dat de > >oorspronkelijke taal van deze stad zo Bra- > >bants is als Brabants maar zijn kan. Net als > >de inwoners. Het etiket 'Vlaams' (als verwar- > >rende benaming voor alles wat 'Nederlands- > >talig' is in België) in zijn (taal-)politieke con- > >text, dateert pas van na de belangrijkste fases > >van de verfransing van Brussel. Stefaan: > Dit is helemaal niet juist. Midden 19e eeuw is het woord "Vlaanderen" reeds > op een organische wijze geëvolueerd tot de betekenis die het in België tot > op de dag van vandaag heeft, nl. de verzamelnaam voor alle Nederlandstalige > gewesten van België. In die tijd was Brussel trouwens nog overwegend > bevolkt door Nederlandssprekenden, zoals de toenmalige talentellingen > aantonen. Pas veel later, rond het interbellum en vooral na WO II, > verfranst Brussel diepgaand; daarvoor was er slechts een zeer > oppervlakkige, uiterlijke verfransing. > Het lijkt me niet juist een betekenisevolutie te negeren of als > onhistorisch af te doen, daar waar ze daadwerkelijk heeft plaatsgegrepen. Indien het begrip Vlaanderen in de betekenis van het totaal van Nederlandstalige gebieden in België in het midden van de 19e eeuw al bekend was, dan wil dat nog niet zeggen dat het gewone volk (want daar hebben we het in dit verband vooral over; de beleving van het gewone volk) het begrip kende, gebruikte en omarmde. Ik durf te betwijfelen dat Nederlandstalige Brusselaars in de 19e eeuw zich Vlaming noemden. ik: > >Again, the people of Brussels simpy cannot > >feel themselves Flemings, because they aren't! Stefaan: > Larie. Historisch zijn de Sorben ook geen Duitsers; tegenwoordig echter > stelt geen enkele Sorb zijn Duits-zijn in vraag. Net zomin het overgrote > deel van de Friezen hun Nederlanderschap ontkennen. Larie? Maakt Brussel dan deel uit van het Vlaams gewest? En bovendien is nationaliteit nog altijd een federale en geen gewestelijke aangelegenheid. Uw eigen argument geeft dat overigens ook al duidelijk aan: een Sorb is een Duitser, een Fries Nederlander en Vlamingen, Brusselaars en Walen zijn voor zover ik weet nog altijd Belgen. Buitendien, de discussie ging over het 'Vlaams ge- voel' van Rijsselaars en Brusselaars. In dat verband is de politieke context van uw opmerking niet rele- vant. ik: > >When you look at this subject from the > >original, regional perspective, you'll see that > >terms like Brabantish, Limburgish and (out- > >side Belgium?) Flemish can most certainly do > >without linguistic 'do's and don'ts'. > >Again and again one realizes that choosing > >the names Flanders and Flemish for the whole > >of northern Belgium and all its germanic dialects > >and languages isn't a very happy choice at all. Stefaan: > Het was helemaal geen "keuze"; het is slechts het resultaat van een > evolutie. Is dat dan zo problematisch? Gaat u ook ten strijde trekken tegen > "Rusland" en "Russen", namen die historisch helemaal niet naar de Russen > verwezen, maar wel naar de middeleeuwse Scandinavische koninkrijken in de > streek van het huidige Oekraïene? Of een land als "Frankrijk" dat zijn naam > al helemaal onterecht draagt ("Gallië" had beter gepast). En zo kunnen we > nog een tijdje doorgaan. Oké, het was geen keuze. Maar dat maakt het nog altijd geen bijzonder handige benaming. Pas op, ik pleit absoluut niet voor de invoering van een andere naam voor Vlaanderen (van 'ten strijde trek- ken' is al helemáál geen sprake!). Ik geef slechts aan dat die evolutie voor wat betreft het onderwerp waar we het hier over hebben, namelijk de cultu- rele beleving van bewoners van een stad of streek, niet bepaald een nuttig begrip heeft opgeleverd. Leg een naam als 'Vlaams Brabant' maar eens uit aan een buitenstaander. Het gebied is van oorsprong Brabants, de cultuur is er Brabants, de taal is er Brabants en er is van oudsher op o.m. economisch vlak een gezonde rivaliteit geweest met Vlaanderen (in de betekenis van het oude graafschap Vlaanderen). Natuurlijke evolutie, akkoord, maar binnen het kader van de discussie die we hier voeren en sowieso binnen het kader van deze discussiegroep, levert de benaming wel enige complicaties op. Met groeten uit Zeeland, Marco ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Stefaan: > Larie. Historisch zijn de Sorben ook geen Duitsers; tegenwoordig echter > stelt geen enkele Sorb zijn Duits-zijn in vraag. Actually, in my experience (and I have asked some of them), Sorbs (Lusatians) consider themselves German nationals but ethnically Sorbian. A couple of years ago a speaker of a Sorbian muscial group introduced himself to the audience at a festival in Vancouver, B.C., with pretty much these words: "We are from Germany, but we are not real Germans. We belong to a tiny minority known as Sorbs." I believe most Frisians and Danes of Germany that are conscious of their identities make this distinction between nationality/citizenship and ethnicity as well. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:31:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:31:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.10.01 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>Mathieu. van Woerkom" Subject: events Luc Hellinckx wrote: > For those of you that are interested in Brabantish, I'd like to point > out that a meeting will take place on the 12th of October 2002 in > Ternat ("De Ploter", Belgium). During this day (happening once in > every two years), many Brabantish topics will be dealt with, ranging > from purely linguistic to more "playful" ones. Also, it might be interesting for those same people: next friday, october 4th there will be a presentation of the new volume of the Dictionary of Brabantish Dialects (Woordenboek van de Brabantse Dialecten - http://www.kun.nl/dialect). It will be held in "de Ghulden Roos" in Roosendaal (Roozendaol, West-Brabant). For information, please contact dr. Jos Swanenberg at j.swanenberg at let.kun.nl . Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:37:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:37:32 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Language preservation Fellow Lowlanders, First, my heartfelt thanks to those who answered my enquiry about the legend of the sunken town! On the subject of language survival, I have seen firsthand the impact of government attempts to kill, promote, favour and even impose language on populations with diverse attitudes. It is a very tricky business. In Canada, attempts to kill Gaelic and aboriginal languages were mostly successful in the past - to the point where present attempts at revival may be too little too late. Attempts to promote, favour or impose French have been sometimes successful, sometimes hopeless failures, and always deeply resented by a significant minority, and in some cases a clear majority of the population. I hope we will always remember that the survival of any language depends ultimately on the attitude of the young. If they want to speak it - for whatever reason - it will live - similarly - if they don't want to speak it - again for whatever reason - it will die. Young children who are well cared for and loved will tend to accept their parents' values and affirm them with pride. In teenage years, most will grow apart or rebel to varying degrees - and this is entirely normal and natural. Language policy must take these facts into account, as well as the biological need to be exposed to more than one language or dialect early in life to develop the neurological flexibility to learn more than one form of speech well. All too often, language policies end up like parents choosing their teenager's career without any knowledge of, or sincere enquiry as to their actual interests and desires. Even worse - like parental sponsorship of a potential boy or girlfriend - the kiss of death. Language preservation to work must be a popular youth movement first, accepted by government - but never portrayed as the older generation's dream for the young. Comics, music, film - whatever the vehicle of youth happens to be in the place and at the moment - is the key to success. If local young people don't have a major role in formulating local language policy its chances for success are dim. I have lived just long enough to see traditional folk music go from being very cool to being very uncool back to being very cool again. Don't give up - certainly not - but for heaven's sake don't start with the politicians and lawyers - they can always be dragged along later. Start with the kids - it is their brains and mouths which form the field on which the campaign will be won or lost! alle die beste George M. Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 20:23:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:23:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity" 2002.10.01 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (02) [D/E] Ro, Leeg- and Lowlanners, Ron schreev: > Actually, in my experience (and I have asked some of them), Sorbs > (Lusatians) consider themselves German nationals but ethnically Sorbian. A > couple of years ago a speaker of a Sorbian muscial group introduced himself > to the audience at a festival in Vancouver, B.C., with pretty much these > words: "We are from Germany, but we are not real Germans. We belong to a > tiny minority known as Sorbs." I believe most Frisians and Danes of Germany > that are conscious of their identities make this distinction between > nationality/citizenship and ethnicity as well. I don't think that there really is any "The German" at all. We must not forget, that Germany is a young and artificial construction; USA is much older than Germany! When I came back from visits of northern and southern America I firstly felt to be back in Europe- much more important than to be back in Germany! Of course I am German- but my main-roots are in my local region, local culture AND! language! And these are part of a European history, connected with all occidental cultures. Regards Fiete. (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." ("Iced Earth") ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 22:06:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:06:28 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] Ron, You answered me (following George Gibault): > I think what you are talking about are the Germanic dialect groups of > "Prussia" ("Western Prussia" and "Eastern Prussia"): Lowlands Saxon (Low > German): "West Prussian 'Platt'" (to which Mennonite Plautdietsch belongs) > and "East Prussian 'Platt' (with which your father and my paternal > grandmother grew up), and German: _Ostpreußisch_ (a sub-group of > _Ostmitteldeutsch_). > > The language George was talking about was the *real* Prussian, the language > of the original Prussians who in German came to be called by their Old or > Middle German name _Pruzzen_ to distinguish them from the _Preußen_, the > German power that had usurped their name. > > > He did never mention anything like that "Triglav" (UG: "Dreiglaube???"). > > That does not surprise me terribly if his field of interest was Germanic > culture and history.> Of course- I had been on the wrong track! A little bit outside of Lowland-Languages, as I find *s*. But- let's go on, if You do allow! On my mother's side of my ancestry there are people from the area "Wendland" (sorry- I don't know it in English), near the western side of the river Elbe, about 100 kilometres south-east of Hamburg, also former and still today partly Slavic. >By the time the area came to be well and truly settled (i.e., overrun and >occupied) by Germanic-speakers, the original religions ("paganism") of that >and other eastern regions, as well as those in the west, had become >outlawed. I do not need to elaborate on what the church did to people who >kept practicing their beliefs openly. Yes- and I do remember my mother talking about some very heathen customs even there, in the border region of the "Lueneburger Heide", near the town of Dannenberg. There were some very strange things still in use up to the early years of the 20th century. She told me, that pastors did whip them at their Sunday's sermons. (But- they were really barbarically, I have to confess). (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." ("Iced Earth") ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Fiete, Lowlanders, > Of course- I had been on the wrong track! A little bit outside of > Lowland-Languages, as I find *s*. Not really, considering that these are people, cultures and languages that came to be overlayed and absorbed by later Germanic-speaking settlers. Thus, along much of the southern Baltic Sea coast you have the succession Baltic (Prussian) > Slavonic (Pomeranian-Polabian) > Germanic (Saxon, German), not to speak of earlier East Germanic and pre-Indo-European peoples. All of the above are parts of your and my heritage and no doubt of other people's on this list (and on my maternal grandmother's side there is Germanized Sorbian heritage). This is not atypical of people in Germany, only that most of them don't know and don't care. > On my mother's side of my ancestry there are people from the area "Wendland" > (sorry- I don't know it in English), near the western side of the river > Elbe, about 100 kilometres south-east of Hamburg, also former and still > today partly Slavic. It is the area known as "Hannoversch(es) Wendland." _Wende_ (from "Vandal," originally a Germanic tribe that at one time settled in Central and Eastern Europe) is an old and now pretty much non-PC word for "Slav" (like _Welsch_ for "(Gallo-)Romance"). Bear in mind that at one time the Germanic-Slavonic borderline (with some overlap) ran from Holstein (even parts of Denmark), just east of Hamburg through parts of Bavaria all the way down to just west of Triest. The _Wendland_, like Lusatia (Sorb. _L/uz^ica_, Ger. _Lausitz_), were/are tiny Slavonic remnant enclaves. These were/are areas in which on German soil Slavonic is/was still spoken. However, these languages and cultures once occupied large tracts around these enclaves and have come to be embedded in the now "German" language and culture varieties of the areas. The Slavonic language of _Hannoversch Wendland_ was Polabian (< _po_ 'on', 'by', _L/aba_ 'Elbe'), specifically Draveno-Polabian (Ger. _Drawä(h)no-Polabisch_, from the area called _Drawähn_). The last speaker died in 1799 or thereabouts, I believe. There are some written records of the language and of local customs. Already at that time, the language was rather strongly influenced by Lowlands Saxon (Low German), and apparently all or most people that spoke Draveno-Polabian could also speak LS. Here is the Lord's Prayer: Nos fader, tå tåi jis vå ne^bis'ai, sjôta^ vårda^ tüji jaima^. Tüja^ rik koma^. Tüja^ vil'a^ s^inót, kok vå ne^bis'ai, tok ka^k no zime^. Nose*j ve*se^danesna^ st'aibe^ doj-na^m dans. Un vite^doj-na^m nos grex, ka^k moi vite^dojime^ nose^m gresna^rüm. Un ni brind'oj nos kå farsükkon'e^, tåi lözoj nos vit ve*soka^g x'auda^g. Amen e^ = e-breve a^ = a-breve e* = e-dot n' = n-acute s' = s-acute Note the LS loans: brind'... < bring... 'bring' fader < fader ~ vader 'father' farsükon... < varsükung(e) 'temptation' koma^ < kame ~ kome '(shall) come' löz... < lösen 'release' rik < rîk 'realm' vårda^ < word(e) ~ ward(e) '(shall) be(come)' vil'a^ < will(e) 'will' Also, note the fronted (umlauted) vowels! I do not know of any study that points out Draveno-Polabian influences on the local Germanic varieties. Does anyone else? > Yes- and I do remember my mother talking about some very heathen customs > even there, in the border region of the "Lueneburger Heide", near the town > of Dannenberg. There were some very strange things still in use up to the > early years of the 20th century. She told me, that pastors did whip them at > their Sunday's sermons. > > (But- they were really barbarically, I have to confess). That was not anything ethnically specific but was part and parcel of living in another time, when what we now consider "abuse" was considered "education." I have heard many such stories from elders of several different ethnic backgrounds. During confirmation lessons, the pastor would slap my grandmother incessantly on the hands with a cane or ruler because she did not hold her book or pen straight. Her hands were crippled with rheumatoid arthritis from childhood (and she was in pain all her life), of which he was aware, but it was more important to him to set an example. Those were the days ... Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.29 (02) [D/E] Hi Lowlanders, I feel that considering Ole Stig Andersen´s message (I leave it in this mail in its entirety, so there are no mistakes) we can put to rest any speculations that our LLlgs might survive or even stay largely intact during this century. It´s true Klaus Groth´s prediction that L-Saxon would not survive HIS century WAS pessimistic. But how the world has changed since then, generalised schooling for children, spread of newspapers, then radio, then television, then internet, only a homoeopathic minority of children learning the language(s) - if the patient has lost his will to live (nothwithstanding a handful of Lowlanders that we are, 0.001% of the Lowlands` population) you might as well forget him. Unless some revolutionising event such as the advent of television will happen, going in the opposite direction, our LL activities as laudable as they are, will remain largely an academic delight. Now if you think I´m pessimistic, read on! Mike Wintzer > From: Ole Stig Andersen > Subject: Future? (was: "History") > > I wrote > > > 90% of the World's around 6.000 languages are moribund and will disappear > > within this century, according to the estimates of Michael Krauss. I'm > > afraid a number of Lowlands languages are among them. > > Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] replied, among other things > > > Like most "futurology" such estimates tend to turn out to be nonsense. > > Prediction over prediction, huh? > > Though I would love it to have been the case, I'm afraid that a general > mistrust of "futurology" is not quite up to the task as far as the World > Wide Language Death that we are currently experiencing is concerned. At > present humanity is losing lgs to the tune of 1- one - a week > > (The latest high-profile case I've come across is Kakadu (Gagadju/Gagudju), > a North Australian lg that died May 23rd 2002 together with it's last > speaker, Big Bill Neidjie. The minutes of the Condolence Motion carried in > the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly are published here: > http://www.icomos.org/australia/images/pdf/Big_Bill.pdf ) > > A lg faces an assortment of challenges on its fall to extinction, among > which are: > > -. Reduction of morphological complexity > -. Loss of function domains, ending up with only ritual/religious functions > -. The mean age of the users/speakers rise over time > -. The new generation doesn't learn the lg. > -. The number of speakers dwindle until > - the lg is only spoken/remembered by a few elderly people > And more could be added > > I would surmise that a lg that is no longer acquired by children is > moribund. This is the case for more than a thousand of the world's lgs > today. Hundreds of lgs TODAY are only spoken by 1-2-5 old people. > > Commissioned by UNESCO in 1991 the eskimologist Michael Krauss of Fairbanks > Univ, Alaska, did not base his estimate of impending lg mass death on some > fancy private catastrophism. He based it on the known number of lgs not > transferred to or used by the new generations. > > > The death of Scots within a generation or two has been > > predicted for almost as long as the language has existed. > > Citing Scots as a counterexample to the global trend of Massive Language > Extinction, is a bit like claiming that New Guinea birds of paradise can't > be endangered since there are lots of sparrows in my garden. > > Some of the Lowlands lgs are among the world's largest, obviously alfa-lgs > like English, Dutch and Afrikaans, but also Scots, which has an estimated > (depending on your ideology of what constitutes a lg vs a dialect) more than > 1 million speakers, though hardly in all domains. > > If we say, for convenience of calculation, that there is 6 bn people and > 6.000 lgs, then a lg has in average 1 mio speakers, and Scots is above that > level. Together with only a few hundred other lgs. The vast majority of the > world's lgs have far below the world average of speakers, many hundreds only > af few hundred. > > The level of endangerment of any lg should primarily be gauged by the age > distribution of its speakers, secondarily by the absolute size of the speech > community and thirdly by the range of domains in which it can be used. > (Maybe 2 and 3 should change place.) > > What do we know about the age distribution of the speakers of beta-lgs that > are of this list's interest?: > Ap=Appalachian > B=Brabantish > F=Frisian > L=Limburgish > LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) > S=Scots > Sh=Shetlandic > V=(West)Flemish > Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) > > The indigeneous lgs of North America, Australia, the Soviet Union have been > effectively eradicated in less than 200 years, mainly through warfare, > deprivation of livelihood, forced (and voluntary) migrations, missionary and > school policies, and kidnapping of children (boarding schools and adoption > schemes). Such processes are still in full swing. > > New Guinea still has an astounding 1100 or so lgs, one sixth of the Worlds's > stock, but they are all so small and under such ferocious attack by the > local versions of international civilisation, that just a handfuld or two of > them can be expected to survive this century. In Africa wars and famines > have had and will have a decastating effect on amultitude of lgs. All over > the Third World urban centres grow unchecked and draw "weak" lgs into > uselessnes and oblivion. > etc Indonesia, etc India, etc Africa, etc Latin America, etc ... > > The proces of losing lingustic diversity can possibly be counteracted in > some pockets, if the speakers "decide" to maintain (i.e. use) their lg, AND > if they have the means to do it. > > As this list itself bears witness to, the Internet is a marvellous > instrument for storing and sharing knowledge and bringing otherwise small > and isolated groups of people and interests together, and it is possible > that such larger virtual communities will be able to keep this or that > endangered lg alive against odds. Unfortunately the Internet is not > accessible where most of the language eradication is taking place. But in > some pockets it is: > > Gaelic might turn out to be such an example, though I doubt it. It is spoken > by about 60.000 mainly elderly people at the fringes of Scottish economy. > Though Gaelic enjoys considerable public respect, funding and promotion, it > is not taught much to children and cannot be used much for economic > purposes. Thus I think that even this nurtured endangered lg has very hard > times ahead. > > And from a diversity point of view I think that the likely loss of Gaelic is > a far greater impoverishment than the far less likely loss of, say, Scots, > would be (no offense ;-), since ALL the Celtic lgs are endangered. > > Michael Krauss' prediction was that the next millennium may see as few as > 600 living lgs left on Earth. Some experts are more pessimistic, others > less, but no estimate leaves any doubt that we are entering an age of > massive unprecedented destruction of the most fundamental part of World > Heritage, the lingustic diversity. > > Strangely, the current catastrophe - whatever it's exact extent may be - has > not attracted much attention in the linguist community. At least not until > recently. But now the British Lisbet Rausing Charitable Foundation has given > £ 20 million over 10 years creating the Endangered Languages Documentation > Project (ELDP) at School of Oriental and African Studies in London. > (http://www.eldp.soas.ac.uk) > > The massive donation, which is said to be among the largest in Humanities > ever, envisages to describe a total of 100 dying lgs, about a third of the > number of lgs Krauss' predicts will disappear in the same period. Each lg > will be described at at price of £ 150,000 a piece. But certainly not saved! > > It is characteristic of the shallow public AND professional understanding of > the problem that even serious media like Scientific American and The > Guardian have hailed the Rausing donation as a measure against Langauge > Death. That it not the case at all, the donation specifies expressly that > only lgs with a few speakers left are to be studied. > > Similarly this year the German Volkswagenstiftung donated 3,5 mio Euro für > die Dokumentation bedrohter Sprachen, maninly to the establishment of > Archives on endangered languages at the Max-Planck-Institut für > Psycholinguistik in Nijmegen. > > Also the scholarly literature is growing, e.g.: > > R.M.W Dixon: The Rise and Fall of Languages, Cambridge University Press, > 1997 (especially about the Australian lgs) > > David Crystal: Language Death, Cambridge University Press, 2000 > > Andrew Dalby: Language in Danger. How language loss threatens our future. > Allen Lane The Penguin Press, 2002 (Includes very interesting descriptions > of lg death in Ancient and Classical Europe, Latins advance etc.) > > And there are some places on the WWW, e.g. > > Terralingua: Partnerships for Linguistic & Biological Diversity > http:/www.terralingua.org > > Foundation For Endangered Languages, http://www.ogmios.org/ > > The Endangered Languages Fund, http://sapir.ling.yale.edu/~elf/index.html > > Ole Stig Andersen > http://www.olestig.dk/sprogpolitik ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 22:09:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:09:14 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.29 (02) [D/E] hi Lowlanders, A short while ago someone (cannot find the message back) suggested that Scots, rather than having been derived from English on a Gaelic/Norse substrate, might have evolved rather independently and in parallel with English from the languages of the early Anglo-Saxon invaders. I´ve had now for a few months my first real exposure - through reading LL postings - to written Scots, and I find about the same degree of Latin (Norman) superstrate in Scots as in English. Shouldn´t one expect rather less Normannic words in Scots than in English if the a.m. supposition was true? Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 22:12:02 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:12:02 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut BrowneK at brevard.k12.fl.us Subject: language survival Ron wrote: This is what in my experience most people in the States assume when I talk with them about it. The sad truth is that it is *not* far removed from them at all, that this sort of thing is not only happening in faraway countries but, at a probably faster rate than in Europe, under their very own noses. The indigenous languages of the Americas, especially of the United States, are disappearing at an alarming rate. I recently wrote about this. (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208D&L=lowlands-l&P=R902 ) In your very own state, Florida, there are several severely endangered (mostly Seminole) language varieties; e.g., Language: Speakers: Muskokee (Creek) 6,213 (*including* those of Oklahoma and Alabama) Mikasuki/Miccosuki 496 Many are extinct (e.g., Apalachee, Hitchiti and Taino), and the Taino plan to revive theirs by reconstructing it from records. Please take a look at a list of surviving languages and the numbers of their speakers in the United States: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jcamacho/363/nativetoday.htm Note that there are still 10 speakers of Makah on that list. Meanwhile there is none ... Regards, Reinhard/Ron Ow Ron! I was writing about the lowlands languages, but your point is taken. I have looked at the list you sent. Very interesting. Even though I have not really had an interest in this languages your e-mail has piqued my interest. Time is a factor and sometimes money, but I want to look into more now after your "encouragement." Perhaps I'm thinking too "lowlands-egocentrically." (my own word) thanks, Kevin Browne Titusville, Florida ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 22:37:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:37:15 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Here is another version of the Draveno-Polabian Lord's Prayer: Nôße Wader, ta toy giß wa Nebisgáy, Sjungta woarda tügí Geima, tia Rîk komma, tia Willia schinyôt, kok wa Nebisgáy, tôk kak no Sime, Nôßi wißedanneisna Stgeiba doy nâm dâns, un wittedoy nâm nôße Ggrêch, kak moy wittedoyime nôßem Grêsmarim, Ni bringoy nôs ka Warsikónye, tay lösoáy nôs wit wißókak Chaudak. Amen. http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/slav/polabbs.htm And I forgot one of the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loans: un < un 'and' Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 14:29:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:29:53 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Virus warning" 2002.10.02 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim wkv at home.nl Subject: Viruswaarschuwing! >From : W!M wkv at home.nl www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/ Hoi, Hier is weer eens een berichtje in het nederlands.... Allemaal weer even opletten voor verkeerde e-mühl, junkmail. Er waart weer eens een nieuw virus door Cyberië... Groeten uit Zwolliewood! Wim. [Wim Verdoold] p.s. Subject: Viruswaarschuwing! ==================================================================== 30 september 2002 VirusAlert: W32.Bugbear-A (Tanatos) : gevaarlijk (39/100) ==================================================================== Informatiepagina op de website van VirusAlert: http://www.virusalert.nl/?show=virus&id=341 Bugbear is een mass-mailer internetworm die zich onder sterk wisselende eigenschappen kan verspreiden. Tevens bezit het een backdoor component waardoor de virusschrijver c.q. hacker in staat is om creditcard-details, wachtwoorden en andere gegevens opgeslagen op het systeem te ontvreemden. Het maakt voor de verspreiding gebruik van e-mail. Doordat het virus gebruik maakt van het MIME-exploit in Outlook (Zie hieronder) kan het bij niet gepatchte systemen automatisch worden geactiveerd. (In andere gevallen kan het ge-activeerd worden door het bijlagebestand handmatig te openen.) Payload/Schade * Uitschakeling van bepaalde security- c.q. antivirussoftware. * Installatie van een backdoor component. (Toegang voor virusschrijver tot uw systeem.) * Verspreiding op tamelijk intelligente wijze, waardoor herkenning lastig is. * Installatie van een aantal bestanden op uw systeem, inclusief een verwijzing vanuit de registry. * Doorzending van het virusbestand richting alle aanwezig berichten in "Postvak IN" & verzending naar andere in bestanden opgeslagen e-mailadressen. http://www.virusalert.nl/?show=link&id=asap_tekst =============================================================== Met vriendelijke groeten, VirusAlert redactie. ====================| www.VirusAlert.info |============================ VirusAlert is een onafhankelijke Nederlandse organisatie die informatie van veiligheidsexperts en antivirusfabrikanten samenbrengt en kwalificeert. Door de merkonafhankelijkheid slaat VirusAlert een brug tussen de verschillende antiviruslaboratoria en kan zij deze gebundelde kennis zeer snel aan haar abonnees ter beschikking stellen. Op dit gebied is de organisatie toonaangevend. (c) 2002 VirusAlert.info - GRATIS NIEUWSBRIEF - Oplage ruim 47.000 Verspreiding van nieuwsbrief wordt aangeboden door M+ Group. http://www.mplus.net. ================================================================= - Uw abonnement aanpassen, de-activeren? Ga naar www.virusalert.info en kies voor "inloggen". - Mocht u uw wachtwoord vergeten zijn dan kunt u deze hier per e-mail laten toezenden. ---------- From: Wim wkv at home.nl Subject: Virus Alert - WORM_BUGBEAR.A >From W!M wkv at home.nl www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/ Here is a warning in English too: Subject: Medium Risk Virus Alert - WORM_BUGBEAR.A Dear Lowlanders: This worm terminates antivirus processes and propagates by sending itself via email using its own SMTP (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) engine. The email that it sends out contains no message body and uses any of the following as its subject: $150 FREE Bonus! 25 merchants and rising Announcement bad news CALL FOR INFORMATION! click on this! Confirmation of Recipes. Correction of errors Daily Email Reminder empty account fantastic free shipping! Get 8 FREE issues - no risk! Get a FREE gift! Greets! hello! history screen hmm.. I need help about script!!! Interesting... Introduction its easy Just a reminder Lost & Found Market Update Report Membership Confirmation My eBay ads New bonus in your cash account New Contests new reading Payment notices Please Help... Report SCAM alert!!! Sponsors needed Stats Today Only Tools For Your Online Business update various Warning! Your Gift Your News Alert The email attachment may be one of these: Setup.exe 3 July 2002.doc.pif It spoofs the FROM field of the email that it sends out while the TO field contains addresses found in the Windows Address Book (WAB). This worm exploits a known vulnerability on systems with unpatched Internet Explorer 5.01 and 5.5, which automatically runs the executable file attachment when the email message is previewed or opened in Microsoft Outlook and Outlook Express. For more information on WORM_BUGBEAR.A please visit our Web site at: http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.asp?VName=WORM_BUG BEAR.A so, now we all know about it! Wim. [Wim Verdoold] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 14:32:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:32:24 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity" 2002.10.02 (02) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity" 2002.10.01 (04) [E] Daar kann ik di man blot recht geven, Fiete, so se ik dat ok liggers dat natuerli lang Tied versoecht woerden is een exklusive duetsche national-identitaet optobuen, een darvun is bekanntli to Ind broecht worden in 1945. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 14:45:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:45:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (03) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: Fiete schreef: in 't Hauchduetsche hefft wi keen Woord foer "laptop", un dat hett woll sien gauden Grund Hebt wi Fiete: Schoßrechner. Kumpelmenten, Mike Wintzer ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Tjer, denn schull dat in use Spraak sachs "Schootrekener" heten, or amenn direktemang uut 't Ingelsche: "Schoottopprekener" > kort "Schoottopp", wenn dat elk een so doon kann as se 't in 't neeste Wöörbook daan hebbt. :-] (Mehr daar vun later.) Kumpelmenten ook vun mi (ofschoonst mit 'n hojappen Muul so fröh an d'n Morgens)! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 15:26:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:26:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] Hi Ron, hi George, hi all Lowlanders, If I may summarize Ron´s answer to my (admittedly) militant call for action: Lots of good people do lots of good things behind the scenes for our languages. (I agree.) There are lots of more good things we, you, me, everyone can do, should do (I agree.) Languages have, and always will, emerge, florish, change, deteriorate, die - it´s a fact of life. (I agree.) My point though was that nowadays, in the age of universal human rights, these processes are FORCED upon us with a violence hitherto unheard of, at least in the area of languages. A sovereign even as late as the 18th or 19th century in general didn´t care too much what his subject spoke. Yes, I agree, all through the age evolution took its course. Sometimes evolution was violent. But, the systematic, state-ordered violence towards languages (and the cultures they carry) is a recent phenomenon, triggered by the emergence of the so-called "nation" states. I was raped, culturally, linguisticly, when I was denied access to my culture, deprived of my childhood language, and a foreign language was forced upon me for the rest of my days. I feel that I was denied a basic Human Right. And that´s what my militant feelings are directed to. If I belonged to an ethnie, there clearly was ethnocide. George Gibault writes: "...don't start with the politicians and lawyers..." Whom else can I address my grievances about state-ordered violence to but to state institutions, the justice system in this case? What are the alternatives? Extra-judicial (but for heaven´s sake no violent) actions, I proposed some in my posting. George continues: "Start with the kids - it is their brains and mouths which form the field on which the campaign will be won or lost!" And: "If local young people don't have a major role in formulating local language policy its chances for success are dim." Right you are George, oh so right! If you knock someone down in the street and police arrives, can you point to him and say: "Look he doesn´t even WANT to get up." Who was there when little Mike Wintzer was a receptive kid??? The almighty state with its mandatory school system that knew (and still does know) only one language - its own official "national" language, foreign to the land. Who gave young Mike a chance to "formulate local language policies"?? Better late than never, now he wants his voice to be heard. And I am sure that many of the Lowlanders, if they look at it this way, if they really become aware of their ethnic affiliation and what happened to it, will want their voices to be heard , too. That was the sense of my wake-up call. Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (07) [E] Hi all, What Kevin mentions there is an interesting phenomenon. He is deeply involved in our list and its languages, but concedes not (yet I hope) having giving much thought to the languages in his own FL. This reminds me 1. of a man named Kremnitz, a brilliant scholar of the Occitan language. He was (still is, I met him 30 years ago when I got first interested in Occitan) professor at the University of Münster (Westphalia). When I asked him about the respective positions of Occitan vis-à-vis French and L-Saxon (platt I said in those days) vis-à-vis German, I drew a complete blank, and I found impossible to make him understand what I was talking about. 2. A bit further back in time still, of myself. When I first came to Occitania and discovered the language, it took me some time (albeit only a few days) to start drawing the parallels with my own tongue. Like Kevin, I clearly saw what was the situation of another "minority" language, but failed to grasp, at first, the situation in my own home country. Tschüß, Mike ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (05) [E] Thank you all for your enlightening discussions about the Baltic/Slavonic/Germanic interactions. I learnt a lot I didn´t know about my former close neighbors. Now can anyone enlighten me on this: Does the name "Russia" have anything to do with "Prussia", etymologically speaking? I remember from my childhold the word "Reußen" which sounded like "Preußen" without the P. Cannot recall at all what "Reußen" .was used for. Tschüß, Mike ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Mike, I'm sure other have more enlightening things to say about the name "Russian," but let me just quickly add that _russ_ or something of the sort started off being the name for Swedes, or at least for the tribe of Vikings from somewhere in Sweden that navigated the rivers of Russia and Ukraine all the way down to Byzantine Constantinopel (today's Istanbul). First they traded and established settlements along the way (and this is why Arabic coins of that time were unearthed in many parts of Eastern Europe, Northern Germany and Scandinavia). Then, according to old Scandinavian sources, the local Slavs "asked us to come and rule over them" (which I take with a huge grain of salt). The ruling class of those area thus consisted largely of Scandinavians for a while, and they were eventually absorbed into the general population. Unearthed Viking settlements and boats, personal names such as Ol'ga (< Helga), and the ethnonym "Russ" are among traces of their one-time presence. The Finnic peoples of the Baltic Sea region (who also call Germany "Saxony") still call Swedes and Sweden by this old name: Swede/Swedish Sweden German Germany Russian Russia Finnish: ruotsalainen Ruotsi saksalainen Saksa venäläinen Venäjä Karelian: ? ? ? ? ? ? Estonian: rootslane Rootsi sakslane Saksa venelane Venemaa (?) Livonian: ? ? ? ? ? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 15:28:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:28:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.09.25 (07) [E] >From: Thomas Byro >Subject: Festivals/songs > >We had a local festival in the Rahden area, Suenematen (please pardon >spellings). It was much like Halloween with the difference that we hollowed >out a turnip called a Kuerbis, rather than a pumpkin, and carved out a >frightening face, put a lit candle in it and put it out. We would also go >from house to house, singing a song. It began "Suenematen, Gauematen--" but >I forgot how it went on, and we would get treats. This festival clearly has >the same origins as Halloween and probably goes back to when the area was >Keltic. I have never met abyone from Germany who has heard of this >festival. Was it a local festival,found only in the Rahden area? Does >anyone know the song? > >Another festival involved people dancing around a bonfire at night. Couples >would then jump over the fire hand in hand. Something very similar is >described in Gerhard Herm's book, The Kelts. In his version though, the >couples would have sex in the fields after jumping over the fire. I don't >think anything like that took place in my area but who knows? > >Tom Hello Tom ! In Eastern Friesland we have a festival called >Su"nnermarten<. The word simply means >Saint Martin<. It is on November 10th. Being genuine St. Martin's day (11. November) it is associated with the birthday of the church-reformer Martin Luther in protestant areas. Traditionally children carrying >kipkapko"o"gels< = lanterns (often hand-made from paper or small pumpkins [German: Ku"rbis]) walk from house to house singing songs referring to Martin Luther or religious things and receive gifts (sweets, chocolade or more traditional >pe:perno"o"ten< [gingernuts] and apples) from the people. Many children also disguise and carry >sghabellenskoppen< [masks]. Thus there is some similarity with halloween. In former times November 11th was the day when taxes had to be payed, farm- workers were set free from their contacts and livestock was fetched off the pastures. A day life became much harder for many people and a tradition of begging for provisional stock also lives on in the tradition explained above. On the other hand the song You mentioned reminds me to a song that is associated with >Su"nnerklo´s< = St. Nikolaus-day (December 6th.). I'll look whether I can find out the text and post it later. There are many fire-festivals all over Europe. In Eastern Friesland the most famous is >po´skefu"er< (Easter-fire) which is held at Saturday before Easter. In single areas there is a tradition of jumping over the fire when it is already low but these are exceptions. There are other traditions of fire-jumping mostly with the so called >Johannisfeuer< in May. We haven't them in Eastern Friesland but in other regions You can find frequent examples. They are spring-rites and always associated with fertility of nature, crops, livestock and even humans. In some areas the jumping over the fire of a couple means a promise of marriage. Kind regards Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 15:29:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:29:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.09.25 (07) [E] >From: Thomas Byro >Subject: Festivals/songs > >We had a local festival in the Rahden area, Suenematen (please pardon >spellings). It was much like Halloween with the difference that we hollowed >out a turnip called a Kuerbis, rather than a pumpkin, and carved out a >frightening face, put a lit candle in it and put it out. We would also go >from house to house, singing a song. It began "Suenematen, Gauematen--" but >I forgot how it went on, and we would get treats. This festival clearly has >the same origins as Halloween and probably goes back to when the area was >Keltic. I have never met abyone from Germany who has heard of this >festival. Was it a local festival,found only in the Rahden area? Does >anyone know the song? > >Another festival involved people dancing around a bonfire at night. Couples >would then jump over the fire hand in hand. Something very similar is >described in Gerhard Herm's book, The Kelts. In his version though, the >couples would have sex in the fields after jumping over the fire. I don't >think anything like that took place in my area but who knows? > >Tom Hello Tom ! In Eastern Friesland we have a festival called >Su"nnermarten<. The word simply means >Saint Martin<. It is on November 10th. Being genuine St. Martin's day (11. November) it is associated with the birthday of the church-reformer Martin Luther in protestant areas. Traditionally children carrying >kipkapko"o"gels< = lanterns (often hand-made from paper or small pumpkins [German: Ku"rbis]) walk from house to house singing songs referring to Martin Luther or religious things and receive gifts (sweets, chocolade or more traditional >pe:perno"o"ten< [gingernuts] and apples) from the people. Many children also disguise and carry >sghabellenskoppen< [masks]. Thus there is some similarity with halloween. In former times November 11th was the day when taxes had to be payed, farm- workers were set free from their contacts and livestock was fetched off the pastures. A day life became much harder for many people and a tradition of begging for provisional stock also lives on in the tradition explained above. On the other hand the song You mentioned reminds me to a song that is associated with >Su"nnerklo´s< = St. Nikolaus-day (December 6th.). I'll look whether I can find out the text and post it later. There are many fire-festivals all over Europe. In Eastern Friesland the most famous is >po´skefu"er< (Easter-fire) which is held at Saturday before Easter. In single areas there is a tradition of jumping over the fire when it is already low but these are exceptions. There are other traditions of fire-jumping mostly with the so called >Johannisfeuer< in May. We haven't them in Eastern Friesland but in other regions You can find frequent examples. They are spring-rites and always associated with fertility of nature, crops, livestock and even humans. In some areas the jumping over the fire of a couple means a promise of marriage. Kind regards Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 20:18:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:18:00 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Language survival Beste liëglanners, Recently I've been reading all kinds of declarations about the linguistic character of Brussels that somehow managed to stir my mind. It goes without saying (but not without writing maybe *s*) that Brabantish has always been the main language of Brussels (and Antwerp and Den Bosch and Leuven) until the late 19th century. Surely there were pockets of "high class people" that spoke French, but 99 % of the local population spoke plain Brabantish. Even in the so called "Marolles". Also bear in mind that Flemish on the other hand has always suffered much more influence from French than Brabantish. France used to have a very tight grip on the county of Flanders for centuries and centuries, and this shows...still today, if one takes into account the sometimes overly sensitive reactions of many a Fleming that would qualify himself a "flamingant". Those among you, who do not know how such a person is perceived by "les francophones", should listen to a song by Jacques Brel titled "Les F-". In order to give you an idea of how thoroughly "unfrench" (and also "unflemish") popular language still was somewhere around 1860 in Brussels, I will now quote the lemma "dietsch" from a dictionary that was roughly written between 1850 and 1882 by the Brabantish priest L.W. Schuermans : >DIETSCH, bijv. en z. nw. Dit is de echte algemeene naam onzer taal, nog zeer in Br., Antw. en Limb. in voege om de vlaamsche of nederduitsche of nederlandsche spraak aan te duiden. De Brusselaar spreekt "disch", "plat-tisch", met den duitschen sch-klank, uit; door "dosch" verstaat hij hoogduitsch. Te Leuv. en omstr. zegt men niet "diets" maar "duts", even als in Limb. en dat bet. hetzelfde als in 't engl. "dutch", d.i. vlaamsch of nederduits; om het hgd. aan te duiden zegt men in Br. "duitsch", of "deutsch" (met korten eu-klank) en "duitsch" of "hoogduts", "hoogdutsch" (sch uitgespr. als in 't hgd.) in Limb. But then things changed...very rapidly...By the end of the 19th century, more and more (Belgian) people found Brussels to be very attractive and a huge influx was taking place...many of them were Flemings and soon they abandoned their native language...no doubt because French was fashionable (in more than one sense) and if you wanted to get a job in the city, Flemish, Brabantish or Limburgish was much less useful. On a more positive note, French was the "lingua franca" that united people from West-Vlaanderen and Limburg and Luxemburg in this young kingdom. At the same time people all over the northern part of Belgium started reacting and demanded more rights for their community...in those days even the university of Ghent for example was not yet "dutch-speaking", and sure enough the ongoing battle (then !) had valid reasons in my opinion. Because "their enemy", so to speak, was common, both Flemish, Brabantish and Limburgish people kind of unified their forces and chose to be labelled "Flemish" ("Vlaamse Beweging"), but linguistically speaking this was incorrect. "Eendracht maakt macht" and "Het doel heiligt de middelen", you know. *s* Up till this day though, people from the provinces of Vlaams-Brabant (wrong name actually, but another name would be untranslatable in French because "francophones" make little or no distinction between people living north of the linguistic border) and Antwerp and Noord-Brabant (and especially dutch-speaking people from Brussels !) do not consider themselves very much "Vlaams". Yes they do if they have to show their profile towards an outsider living far away (the words Flanders, Flemish and Fleming are better known in English than any other words derived from Brabant for that matter), but within a Benelux-context history still plays a (minor) role. In my version of Brabantish for example we'll say that we speak sort of "Vloms" ~ "Vlaams" (D), yet people from the two provinces of Flanders speak "Vlojners" ~ "Vlaanders", which is quite different. We'll also rarely qualify ourselves as being "ne Vlàmink" ~ "een Vlaming" (D), and the term "ne Vlojnereir" ~ "een Vlaanderaar" is certainly exclusively used for people living in the old county of Flanders. The difference in "heimatgefühl" between Flemings and Brabantians (don't even know whether this word exists *s*) is also quite obvious when you take a look at the distribution of Belgian family names on the following site : http://geonome.metaphor.be/cgi-bin/geonome.pl People from Brabant are known as "De Brabander(e)" in Flanders, but not in their homelands of course, whereas Flemings are not only called "Vleminckx" outside Flanders, but apparently they even use the name "Vlaeminck" within their homelands...judge for yourself... This rivalry between the county of Flanders and the duchy of Brabant used to be much more outspoken in the past (resulting in a series of war-like battles because "Vlaanderen" and "Brabant" were both trying to expand eastwards), but slowly this seems to fade, as younger people are focussing less and less inside their communities and tend to broaden their horizons. In Brussels itself however, this anti-Flemish, anti-"Hollands" and anti-German(ic) resentment can still be felt; and so, if anything, dutch-speaking folk there, often consider themselves "Brussels" in the first place, "Brabants" in the second, and "European" in the third. Off the record, I'm not "Brussels" myself. Briefly, imho Marco Evenhuis got it completely right in his last message. Voila *s*, my two cents ... next one, please... Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] At 23:09 01/10/02, Mike Wintzer wrote: >hi Lowlanders, >A short while ago someone (cannot find the message back) suggested that >Scots, rather than having been derived from English on a Gaelic/Norse >substrate, might have evolved rather independently and in parallel with >English from the languages of the early Anglo-Saxon invaders. I´ve had now >for a few months my first real exposure - through reading LL postings - to >written Scots, and I find about the same degree of Latin (Norman) >superstrate in Scots as in English. Shouldn´t one expect rather less >Normannic words in Scots than in English if the a.m. supposition was true? Not at all. Indeed, for centuries Scotland and France not only were allies against their common enemy, England, but also traded with each other a great deal, and so one might even expect to see *more*. It's certainly true that Scots has a range of vocabulary derived from French, that isn't found in English. Some examples are _rooser_ (arrosoir), _pell-mell_ (pêle-mêle), _groset_ (groseille), _gigot_, _gibbet_ (gibet), _ashet_ (assiete), and there are more. Goodwill to all, Colin Wilson. ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (02) [D/E] Lowlands-L heeft op dinsdag, 1 okt 2002 om 17:28 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > From: Marco Evenhuis > Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2002.09.30 (05) [D] > > Beste mensen, > > Stefaan Vermeire reageerde uitgebreid op mijn > antwoord op eerdere berichten van Luc Vanbra- > bant & Simon Hoare. Ik kreeg bij het lezen van > het antwoord van Stefaan sterk de indruk dat hij > de context van mijn bericht, dat nadrukkelijk slechts > een reactie is op een eerder schrijven van Luc & Simon, > enigszins verkeerd begrepen heeft. > Zoals ik Stefaan's bericht lees, heeft hij menen te > moeten concluderen dat ik mij af wens te zetten > tegen begrippen als 'Vlaams' en 'Vlaanderen' als > paraplubegrippen voor respectievelijk de Germaanse > taalvarianten van noord-België en het administratieve > gebied waar deze varianten gesproken worden. Dat is > onjuist. > In mijn schrijven probeerde ik slechts aan te geven > dat Simon, die eerder aangaf verbaasd te zijn over het > feit dat de niet geheel verfranste Brusselaars zich afzet- > ten tegen hun 'Vlaams-zijn', terwijl de zelfs geheel ver- > franste inwoners van Lille/Rijssel hun Vlaamse af- > komst niet onder stoelen of banken steken en > de naam Vlaming zelfs als geuzennaam gebruiken. Misschien splijt ik hier wind, maar de Vlaamse naam voor Lille is Rijsel, met één s. Voor de inwoners gebruiken wij al altijd de naam 'Rijselnaars' maar daar kan ik niet met 100% zekerheid zeggen dat het taalkundig correct is. Rijsel en Lille zijn trouwens etymologisch van hetzelfde woord afkomstig: insula werd " ter isla "(V) en "l'isla"(Frans) Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (04) [D/E] Lowlands-L heeft op maandag, 30 sep 2002 om 20:26 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > From: W. Jaap Engelsman > Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.29 (02) [D/E] > > Beste Laaglanders, > > Luc Vanbrabant schreef: > >> Perhaps it would be interesting to send to our Lowland site all the >> French words who are derived from one of the lowland tongues. > > Maar laten we niet vergeten dat er op dit gebied al veel werk verzet > is. In > het reuzenwerk van W. von Wartburg, "Französisches etymologisches > Wörterbuch" (1928-), zijn de delen 15-17 gewijd aan "Die germanischen > Elemente". > > Een zeer interessante analyse van de sporen van de Oudnederlandse > woordenschat in het Frankisch is te vinden in: Nicoline van der Sijs, > "Chronologisch woordenboek" (2001), hoofdstuk 2.2. > > Jaap Engelsman Dag Jaap, Inderdaad, het chronologisch woordenboek geeft ons een interessante analyse. Maar er worden daaruit hooguit 90 woorden vermeld. Toen ik met mijn fluo-stift een etymologisch woordenboek doorbladerde, vond ik er toch een 400-tal. Daarbij moet je ook naar de zinsconstructies zelf kijken Frans is zo anders dan de andere Romaanse talen, precies door die Frankische invloed. Een Franse en een Latijnse zin tonen veel minder overeenkomst dan een Franse en een Vlaamse zin. Goetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] Fellow Lowlanders, The presence of many French loan words in Scots is not at all surprising for three reasons: 1. French was the "universal" (in Europe) language of culture in the Middle Ages 2. There were close political ties between France and Scotland, which often allied against England - in fact there is a Scots term for this - the "Auld Alliance." Bonnie Prince Charlie, for example, spoke French as his first language 3. There was a significant French immigration to Scotland in the 11th and 12th centuries (which few Scots realize) - such typically Scots names as Fraser Archibald and Stewart for example being Norman and Breton in origin. Another typ9cal Scottish name - Fleming - of course refers to Vlaams who brought the wool trade Because the Reformation was particularly violent in Scotland and religious prejudices often extreme, Scots protestants were often encouraged to downplay or ignore the "French (Catholic) connection" to their history - indeed much of the substantial 18th century Catholic population of Scotland emigrated to Ireland and Canada. The degree of English influence on Scots evolution increased steadily over time, particularly after the Union of the crowns in the early 1700s - which, ironically, put a Scot on the throne of England! Scots for aye George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 20:27:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:27:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (07) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (03) [LS] Leve Lüü, Ik find "Klappreekner gans good vöör "laptop", mut ik seggen. Aver "Schoßrechner" vöör`t Hoochdüütsche is bannig snaaksch. Worüm nich slichtweg "Klapprechner"? Övrigen harr ik al jümmers wat tegen "Handy" vöör "Mobiltelefon" in`t Hooch. Gaar ni tegen dat Woord sülf, avers tegen de scriifwiis. Wp weer dat den mid "Händi" ? Grötens, Daniel ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Tjer, "Mobiltelefon" ... daar stimm' ik, je na Dialekt, för "Taschenklöönkassen," "Taschensabbelkassen," "Fickenklöönkassen" un "Fickensabbelkassen" ... :] Kumpelmenten in 't Huus! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 20:29:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:29:51 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jack Driedger jimdee at sasktel.net Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] I have lived in Saskatchewan, Canada all my life. My first language was Plautdietsch. When I entered the local public school, I was forced to speak English from the time I entered the school grounds until I left the school grounds to walk home. I am glad that happened at the time. I empathize with Mike Wintzer. Although I needed to learn the English language as a resident of Canada, I have continued to practice Plautdietsch to this day. My children never learned Plautdietsch. ..................................... My point though was that nowadays, in the age of > universal human > rights, these processes are FORCED upon us with a violence hitherto unheard > of, at least in the area of languages. A sovereign even as late as the 18th > or 19th century in general didn´t care too much what his subject spoke. Yes, > I agree, all through the age evolution took its course. Sometimes evolution > was violent. But, the systematic, state-ordered violence towards languages > (and the cultures they carry) is a recent phenomenon, triggered by the > emergence of the so-called "nation" states. I was raped, culturally, > linguisticly, when I was denied access to my culture, deprived of my > childhood language, and a foreign language was forced upon me for the rest > of my days. I feel that I was denied a basic Human Right. And that´s what my > militant feelings are directed to. If I belonged to an ethnie, there clearly > was ethnocide. > George Gibault writes: > "...don't start with the politicians and lawyers..." > Whom else can I address my grievances about state-ordered violence to but to > state institutions, the justice system in this case? What are the > alternatives? Extra-judicial (but for heaven´s sake no violent) actions, > I proposed some in my posting. > George continues: > "Start with the kids - it is their brains and mouths which form the field on > which the campaign will be won or lost!" > And: > "If local young people don't have a major role in formulating local language > policy its chances for success are dim." > Right you are George, oh so right! > If you knock someone down in the street and police arrives, can you point to > him and say: "Look he doesn´t even WANT to get up." > Who was there when little Mike Wintzer was a receptive kid??? The almighty > state with its mandatory school system that knew (and still does know) only > one language - its own official "national" language, foreign to the land. > Who gave young Mike a chance to > "formulate local language policies"?? > Better late than never, now he wants > his voice to be heard. And I am sure that many of the > Lowlanders, if they look at it this way, if they really become aware of > their ethnic affiliation and what happened to it, will want their voices to > be heard , too. That was the sense of my wake-up call. > Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 20:33:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:33:17 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jack Driedger jimdee at sasktel.net Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] I have lived in Saskatchewan, Canada all my life. My first language was Plautdietsch. When I entered the local public school, I was forced to speak English from the time I entered the school grounds until I left the school grounds to walk home. I am glad that happened at the time. I empathize with Mike Wintzer. Although I needed to learn the English language as a resident of Canada, I have continued to practice Plautdietsch to this day. My children never learned Plautdietsch. ..................................... My point though was that nowadays, in the age of > universal human > rights, these processes are FORCED upon us with a violence hitherto unheard > of, at least in the area of languages. A sovereign even as late as the 18th > or 19th century in general didn´t care too much what his subject spoke. Yes, > I agree, all through the age evolution took its course. Sometimes evolution > was violent. But, the systematic, state-ordered violence towards languages > (and the cultures they carry) is a recent phenomenon, triggered by the > emergence of the so-called "nation" states. I was raped, culturally, > linguisticly, when I was denied access to my culture, deprived of my > childhood language, and a foreign language was forced upon me for the rest > of my days. I feel that I was denied a basic Human Right. And that´s what my > militant feelings are directed to. If I belonged to an ethnie, there clearly > was ethnocide. > George Gibault writes: > "...don't start with the politicians and lawyers..." > Whom else can I address my grievances about state-ordered violence to but to > state institutions, the justice system in this case? What are the > alternatives? Extra-judicial (but for heaven´s sake no violent) actions, > I proposed some in my posting. > George continues: > "Start with the kids - it is their brains and mouths which form the field on > which the campaign will be won or lost!" > And: > "If local young people don't have a major role in formulating local language > policy its chances for success are dim." > Right you are George, oh so right! > If you knock someone down in the street and police arrives, can you point to > him and say: "Look he doesn´t even WANT to get up." > Who was there when little Mike Wintzer was a receptive kid??? The almighty > state with its mandatory school system that knew (and still does know) only > one language - its own official "national" language, foreign to the land. > Who gave young Mike a chance to > "formulate local language policies"?? > Better late than never, now he wants > his voice to be heard. And I am sure that many of the > Lowlanders, if they look at it this way, if they really become aware of > their ethnic affiliation and what happened to it, will want their voices to > be heard , too. That was the sense of my wake-up call. > Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 23:45:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:45:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] Fellow lowlanders: Hi and best wishes to all. I agree that the act of the state against minority languages must be fought politically and in the courts - absolutely. I have been helping in a case as a matter of fact where native kids are suing for loss of culture at state enforced "residential schools." My point was that there is a fine line between government "help" which supports real community efforts and government "help" which ends up being a costly waste of tax dollars and generates regional and ethnic animosity and backlash - as Canada's federal bilingual policy has done in western Canada - where studies actually show that the French speaking minority has dropped French FASTER than immigrant minorities speaking "unofficial" languages. I would say use political and legal action in defence - to open up opportunities to use and develop minority languages - but be very careful about how you use the cold hand of the state to "promote" them. Bottom up culture and language support feels like democracy: top down feels like political pandering and in extreme cases forced language learning/use feels like tyranny. P.S. Prussia derives from Bo Russia (near Russia) Rurik, foujder of the Kievan Rus dynasty which led to the Czars was a viking. Cheers George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 23:57:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:57:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (10) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (06) [E] Luc Hellinckx wrote about the postings on the linguistic (and ethnic) situation in Brus- sels: > Briefly, imho Marco Evenhuis got it completely right in his last message. Good to hear that from someone south of the Dutch/Belgian border... I often get the feeling that when one dares to have an opinion about 'Flemish' subjects like these as a 'Hollander', no matter what your opinion is, you're always wrong in the eyes of a Fleming. But then again, that's just one of these things that make Belgium such an interesting place for us ;-) Santeïe! Marco Luc Vanbrabant schreef: > Inderdaad, het chronologisch woordenboek geeft ons een interessante > analyse. Maar er worden daaruit hooguit 90 woorden vermeld. > Toen ik met mijn fluo-stift een etymologisch woordenboek doorbladerde, > vond ik er toch een 400-tal. > Daarbij moet je ook naar de zinsconstructies zelf kijken Frans is zo > anders dan de andere Romaanse talen, precies door die Frankische > invloed. Een Franse en een Latijnse zin tonen veel minder overeenkomst > dan een Franse en een Vlaamse zin. Zou dat laatste niet vooral veroorzaakt worden door de Franse invloed op het Vlaams in plaats van een Germaans- Frankisch substraat in het Frans? Ik be- doel, wanneer ik naar mijn eigen Zeeuws kijk, daar bestaan lijsten van met honder- den Zeeuwse woorden van Franse kom- af. Zou het aantal Franse leenwoorden naar het zuiden toe geen veelvoud zijn van wat er hier, waar het Frans nooit een rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld, al niet te vinden is? Groeten, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 23:59:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:59:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Eldo Neufeld Subject: LL-L Festivals Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Päpanät" (Ger: Pfeffernüsse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and "Päpanät?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Päpanät (after baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. Eldo Neufeld 4040 Blenheim St. Vancouver, BC V6L 2Y9 Tel: (604) 738-4378 e-mail: greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 00:07:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:07:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "In the news" 2002.10.02 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: In the news Lowlanders, Canada, Steinbach, Mennonites and their "archaic German dialect" -- as well as multicultural and multilingual situations -- all mentioned (though somewhat buried in economic reports) without real reference to the United States in a U.S. newspaper article? Yes, the weirdest things do happen! Please read below! Regards, Reinhard/Ron === Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Wednesday, October 2, 2002 As provincial tax base shrinks, 'the very future of our country' at stake Canada has open arms for rural immigrants CANADA: Many rural newcomers speak no English BY CLIFFORD KRAUSS The New York Times STEINBACH, Manitoba - Udia Tschritter comes to the door barefoot to meet her nine children as they return home from school. Her hair is tied in a kerchief and she wears a homemade flower-print dress that reaches her ankles just as she did in her native Mennonite village in Kazakhstan. The front yard of her six-bedroom house has a trampoline for the children next to a sumptuous fruit and vegetable garden. Her husband, David, a carpenter who makes patio doors in a local window factory, will be home any minute to care for the family's barn full of animals. "Canada is wonderful!" exclaimed Tschritter, 39, in her archaic German dialect. "We can buy everything we need, worship as we wish, and it's nice and peaceful." This is the snapshot the Canadian government hopes to duplicate thousands of times over as it embarks on a new immigration policy designed to attract young, preferably large foreign families to rural Canada. The goal is to send 1 million immigrants into the hinterlands over the next decade by matching workers with remote businesses and farms that are starved for skilled labor, and to spread Canada's multiethnic rainbow across the country's vast prairies, tundras and forests. Officials hope to remold an immigration policy that has turned Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal into three of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world, and to distribute the labor riches of places such as China, India and Ethiopia more equally. With Canada's population of 30 million aging and its birth rate plummeting - Canadian women currently have 1.49 children on average - the government says that it, like some European countries, must rely on increasing immigration to ward off a population decline. But with the populations of Newfoundland falling by 7 percent between the 1996 and 2001 censuses, Yukon by 6.8 percent, Northwest Territories by 5.8 percent, New Brunswick by 1.2 percent and Saskatchewan by 1.1 percent, populations in some rural areas are already in calamitous decline. "We need to create more magnets for immigration everywhere," said Minister for Citizenship and Immigration Denis Codere, in an interview. "It's a matter of population growth, labor supply, quality of life, the very future of our country." Not only is the centuries-old dream of populating Canada's vast-ness at stake. The solvency of national health care, and educational and housing programs that are financed by provincial tax bases, which are shrinking, may also hang in the balance. Enormous stretches in the prairies are suffering a slow death from cuts in farm subsidies, shrinking agricultural profit margins and drought. The decline of the farm economy has throttled businesses and compelled young people to take their skills and ambitions to large cities or to the United States. Along the frigid Atlantic coast, a depletion offish stocks has converted entire fishing communities into ghost towns. Looking to immigration to meet its needs is not new for Canada. Pew industrialized countries have so consistently used immigration as a tool for nation-building. Canada populated its vast west in the 19th century by handing out land to European immigrants, much as its southern neighbor did. Today Canada's per capita immigration rate is twice that of the United States, and about 17 percent of the population is foreign-born. Canadian authorities, noting negative demographic trends 25 years ago, opened Canada's doors to people from the Caribbean, Asia and Africa. But the new arrivals duster in a few cities - 53 percent of the 250,000 who arrive every year settle in Toronto, 15 percent in Vancouver and 13 percent in Montreal. Now, though, the earnings for new immigrants are declining in saturated labor markets, strains have been put on services, and urban neighborhoods and schools are growing increasingly segregated into a racial and ethnic checkerboard. The imbalance also threatens to produce a balkanized Canada, with three metropolitan areas becoming increasingly distinct from the rest of the country. "We just don't know how a Toronto of the future, which is 60 percent non-white with 110 different ethnic groups and languages, is going to relate to the rest of Canada," said Larry Bourne, a geography professor at the University of Toronto. Codere has embraced the efforts and will unveil a new federal policy in mid-October that would grant thousands of immigrants three- to five-year work permits under the proviso that they live in rural communities. If they comply, they will be automatically granted permanent resident status, with the right to apply for citizenship after another three years. By then, officials hope they will have planted roots in the small towns and will stay Codere also will propose ways to quicken retraining and licensing for foreign engineers, teachers and medical professionals seeking work in rural communities. Skeptics say immigrants will continue to gravitate to cities and some question the constitutionality of limiting people's freedom to move around. Furthermore, they say, not every province is able to build on ethnic populations already present. But at Loewen Windows here in Steinbach, founded a century ago by the son of Russian Mennonites, the owners turned to Mennonites as they sought 150 new workers. Originally from Germany, the Mennonites have a 200-year history in Russia and Kazakhstan. During the Soviet period, they were encouraged to go to Kazakhstan for much the same reason that Canada is seeking them as set-tiers today. Many of the newcomers here speak no English, although many of the older Mennonite supervisors speak at least some German learned from their grandparents. The housing boom in the United States had propelled the company's sales, and Loewen needed more skilled workers. "I could have put a plant in Georgia, Mexico, Malaysia or China," said Charles Loewen, the chief executive officer, "but we prefer to grow here and immigration helped us hugely." In nearby Winnipeg, the 15,000-member Jewish population has helped attract Jews from economically depressed Argentina by sending delegations, helping with job interviews and English lessons and making sure prospective immigrants have a Friday night Sabbath dinner during exploratory visits. The 35 Argentine families who have arrived over the last year have given the Jewish community here renewed confidence it can survive, and hundreds more have expressed interest in coming. Martin Wayngenten, 30, an accountant, remembered when his rabbi in the city of Parana took him aside and asked him toconsider moving to Winnipeg. The rabbi suggested that he and his wife, Agustina, 29, a bio-medical engineer, would be welcomed with open arms. "We took out a map and looked up Winnipeg," Agustina Wayngenten recalled. Her husband chimed in, "When you don't have a job, you don't worry about the weather." They have found jobs, are saving for a house and are expecting their first baby. "I am going to speak to my child in Spanish," Agustina said, smiling, "but he'll be a Canadian." ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 04:36:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:36:19 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.02 (13) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Delectables Dag ook, Eldo un annere Leeglanners! Eldo, under "Festivals" you wrote today: > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Päpanät" (Ger: > Pfeffernüsse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "Päpanät?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Päpanät (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffernüsse_), as you already know. In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" out of a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ (['pe:p3nø:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same form for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is "gingerbread nut(s)." (* North Saxon _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ and Plautdietsch _Päpanät_ correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most eastern dialects unrounds /ö/ to /e/ and /ü/ to /i/.) There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have never heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version *_Peperkoken_ (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by some. Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], literally "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread (German _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by origin (at least in Northern Germany). I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not only literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of Dutch imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indië_, namely mostly from what is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In German you can tell someone to "get lost" by suggesting they "go where pepper grows" (_hingehen, wo der Pfeffer wächst_), which means to a really distant place (preferably of no return), and I believe that this, too, originally referred to "exotic spices" in general (from Indonesia or the Americas). There must be thousands of recipes for _Pfeffernüsse_, _Pepernööt_ and _pepernoten_. Usually, pepper is not one of its ingredients, though I have heard that someone adds black pepper to her _Pfeffernüsse_, perhaps only because of the name. The ingredients tend to be similar to those of gingerbread, but the dough is rolled into small balls before baking, and the baked balls tend to get some, usually white, sugar frosting or glazing on top. Like gingerbread, they are hard and chewy (at least originally) and are (were) meant for long-time storage without refrigeration. Like gingerbread, they count among traditional staple Christmas treats. I might be able to scare up a couple of traditional recipes should anyone be interested in trying them in preparation for the end-of-year holidays. Why, if they don't turn out properly edible, you could always use the end results as paper weights, or as projectiles to keep the crows away from the kale and brusselsprouts in your wintry backyards. (I remember one of our Scottish friends--perhaps Sandy?--a long time ago telling us a number of ways of making and variously using Scottish _parritch_ 'porridge' other than eating it, and I vaguely remember it involved drawers (of the cupboard type, fortunately not of the underwear type) and other unexpected things. I have to try and dig that one up from the depths of our pre-LINGUIST archive.) Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:13:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:13:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "In the news" 2002.10.03 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] Sandy wrote: >It doesn't follow. > >All your examples do is establish a trend - you also have >to establish why this trend should persist. Although >languages may be dying out wholesale, languages exist in >many different situations and have a lot of individuality. >Just because a population is declining doesn't mean all but >a few will survive. It could even be said that trends are >made to be broken because they carry the seeds of their own >destruction, in the form of the idea that quantity produces >quality. An increasing trend is a question of something >being piled on steadily until something changes - a pile of >child's bricks is just too high and finally topples over, >the people rebel against the latest minor tax increase >because some personal wealth threshhold has been crossed. >On the other hand the qualitative change that finally >results from a persistent trend can be productive - a >critical mass is reached and things can begin to happen. > >Diminishing trends can be more predictable - instead of a >critical mass being reached, the thing can get insupportably >small and disappear. This is probably what raises concerns >about language death. > >However, your examples also seem selective, in the sense >that they all indicate diminishing trends. There are also >increasing trends in Scots, particularly with written >Scots - although a lot of the Scots written in the 20th >century has been poorer quality than ever before, the >"Lallans Movement" still established the idea that Scots >doesn't have to be written as a dialect of English and in >fact only really works if it isn't. The later 20th century >also saw the publication of Lorimer's New Testament, which >is in what might be the best Scots ever written. > >Although it seems as if Lorimer has been largely ignored, >it actually represents a serious trend-breaking possibility. >It certainly lays low the old idea that Scots is only suited >to the writing of humour and reminiscences. How do we know >there isn't some brilliant young writer with a reasonable >Scots-speaking background who's capable of integrating the >lessons in Lorimer with his own background to produce >outstanding works in Scots that will be so good that people >will want to read it in spite of not being familiar with >written Scots? > >This sort of thing has happened before. Fergusson and Ramsay >were writing very good stuff, and when a relatively uneducated >genius like Burns came on the scene, there was Fergusson and >Ramsay's Scots diction for him to study and become familiar >with how to write Scots. Burns wasn't really recognised in >his time, but within a century his works were on the shelves >of most Scottish households, beside the King James Bible. The >effect of even a single book like this shouldn't be underestimated >in the preservation of a living language - I myself remember >pulling the Burns book from my parents' bookshelf at an early >age and finding out for the first time that Scots could be written. > >Although this is about written Scots, I think that there may >come a time when there's a critical mass of written Scots, >after which many more people will start writing it, and as a >result, speaking it better and in wider social circles. A >qualitative change like this depends on a critical mass being >reached. This is why I think ScotsteXt is important: whereas >before only a few books have been readily available in Scots >(mainly Burns and Lorimer - don't miss the fact that although >Lorimer seems to be ignored, he always sells well enough to >stay in print) now there are hundreds. It's not just the >enjoyment of being able to read all those texts, it's also >the statement that Scots has a huge literature, and the study >resources being available for any writers who may want to >continue this great tradition and extend the literature. > >The 20th Century saw the publication of the SND and now we >have Colin's book as the latest addition to the critical mass. >Think of what we have now that we didn't have until relatively >recently: > >Huge ten-volume language dictionary; >New Testament in extremely high-register Scots; >Major text book for learners, with tapes; >Large body of Scots literature readily available worldwide; >Parliament that might yet be persuaded to provide decent > translations of its bumph into Scots; >And so on. > >As Ron has pointed out, the existence of the Internet opens up >many new possibilities for breaking trends, no matter how long >they may have been established. You can either go down the >plughole with the prophets of doom, or you can seize the >opportunity and try to rescue at least your own language! > There remains, however, the problem that most of the things you cite as advances in Scots are totally unknown to the vast majority of the Scots-speaking population. Those who do know about these advances are perhaps just as (more?) likely to be monolingual English speakers, because they inhabit the educational echelons where these advances are recognised. What Scots speakers are more likely to come across are (a) Trainspotting, and (b) Chewin' the Fat and similar programmes, both of which reinforce the image of Scots as the language of (a) drug addicts, and (b) persons, shall we say, of less than average intelligence. This leaves the problem which my illustrations (um!) illustrate! The identification of Scots with 'low' culture - an identification largely perpetrated by middle-class speakers of English - reinforces rather than counters the tendency for English to be associated with advancement and 'niceness'. And much of the 'Scots' produced specifically in order to advance Scots and to prove that it can be 'nice' - such as James Robertson's book on the Scottish Parliament - may be 'nice', but unfortunately isn't Scots. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:16:35 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:16:35 -0700 Subject: LL-L "In the news" 2002.10.03 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com Subject: papanat, pfeffernusse, pepernoten The possible solution of the "pepper-problem" might be this: In the beginning (if my memory is wright) of importing spice to Europe, the word "pepper" was used to indicate "spice" in general; including cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. vr. gr. Theo Homan -------------------------- answering: From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Delectables Dag ook, Eldo un annere Leeglanners! Eldo, under "Festivals" you wrote today: > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Päpanät" (Ger: > Pfeffernüsse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "Päpanät?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Päpanät (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffernüsse_), as you already know. In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" out of a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ (['pe:p3nø:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same form for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is "gingerbread nut(s)." (* North Saxon _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ and Plautdietsch _Päpanät_ correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most eastern dialects unrounds /ö/ to /e/ and /ü/ to /i/.) There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have never heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version *_Peperkoken_ (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by some. Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], literally "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread (German _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by origin (at least in Northern Germany). I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not only literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of Dutch imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indië_, namely mostly from what is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In German you can tell someone to "get lost" by suggesting they "go where pepper grows" (_hingehen, wo der Pfeffer wächst_), which means to a really distant place (preferably of no return), and I believe that this, too, originally referred to "exotic spices" in general (from Indonesia or the Americas). There must be thousands of recipes for _Pfeffernüsse_, _Pepernööt_ and _pepernoten_. Usually, pepper is not one of its ingredients, though I have heard that someone adds black pepper to her _Pfeffernüsse_, perhaps only because of the name. The ingredients tend to be similar to those of gingerbread, but the dough is rolled into small balls before baking, and the baked balls tend to get some, usually white, sugar frosting or glazing on top. Like gingerbread, they are hard and chewy (at least originally) and are (were) meant for long-time storage without refrigeration. Like gingerbread, they count among traditional staple Christmas treats. I might be able to scare up a couple of traditional recipes should anyone be interested in trying them in preparation for the end-of-year holidays. Why, if they don't turn out properly edible, you could always use the end results as paper weights, or as projectiles to keep the crows away from the kale and brusselsprouts in your wintry backyards. (I remember one of our Scottish friends--perhaps Sandy?--a long time ago telling us a number of ways of making and variously using Scottish _parritch_ 'porridge' other than eating it, and I vaguely remember it involved drawers (of the cupboard type, fortunately not of the underwear type) and other unexpected things. I have to try and dig that one up from the depths of our pre-LINGUIST archive.) Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Delectables Ron wrote: > In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffernüsse_), as you already > know. > In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" > out of > a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low > German) _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ (['pe:p3nø:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same > form > for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is > "gingerbread nut(s)." > > (* North Saxon _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ and Plautdietsch _Päpanät_ > correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most > eastern > dialects unrounds /ö/ to /e/ and /ü/ to /i/.) > > There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent > _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have > never > heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version > *_Peperkoken_ > (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by > some. > Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], > literally > "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread > (German > _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by > origin > (at least in Northern Germany). > > I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not > only > literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, > including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of > Dutch > imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indië_, namely mostly from > what > is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In Dutch, pepernoten are also called kruidnoten ('spice nuts'). They are not completely the same, but I don't know about ingredients, though. This Honingkuchen is known in the Netherlands under the names "kruidkoek" and "ontbijtkoek". The general assumption is that this 'bread' of 'cake' originated in Friesland or Groningen, but these kinds of cakes (often with 'kandijsuiker-brokken' on top) are very general in the entire country. Also, one of the most famous ontbijkoek-bakeries is from Brabant...(picture: http://www.peijnenburg.nl/main/images/500-ok-01-01.gif) Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:17:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:17:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectable" 2002.10.03 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com Subject: papanat, pfeffernusse, pepernoten The possible solution of the "pepper-problem" might be this: In the beginning (if my memory is wright) of importing spice to Europe, the word "pepper" was used to indicate "spice" in general; including cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. vr. gr. Theo Homan -------------------------- answering: From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Delectables Dag ook, Eldo un annere Leeglanners! Eldo, under "Festivals" you wrote today: > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Päpanät" (Ger: > Pfeffernüsse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "Päpanät?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Päpanät (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffernüsse_), as you already know. In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" out of a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ (['pe:p3nø:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same form for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is "gingerbread nut(s)." (* North Saxon _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ and Plautdietsch _Päpanät_ correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most eastern dialects unrounds /ö/ to /e/ and /ü/ to /i/.) There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have never heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version *_Peperkoken_ (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by some. Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], literally "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread (German _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by origin (at least in Northern Germany). I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not only literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of Dutch imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indië_, namely mostly from what is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In German you can tell someone to "get lost" by suggesting they "go where pepper grows" (_hingehen, wo der Pfeffer wächst_), which means to a really distant place (preferably of no return), and I believe that this, too, originally referred to "exotic spices" in general (from Indonesia or the Americas). There must be thousands of recipes for _Pfeffernüsse_, _Pepernööt_ and _pepernoten_. Usually, pepper is not one of its ingredients, though I have heard that someone adds black pepper to her _Pfeffernüsse_, perhaps only because of the name. The ingredients tend to be similar to those of gingerbread, but the dough is rolled into small balls before baking, and the baked balls tend to get some, usually white, sugar frosting or glazing on top. Like gingerbread, they are hard and chewy (at least originally) and are (were) meant for long-time storage without refrigeration. Like gingerbread, they count among traditional staple Christmas treats. I might be able to scare up a couple of traditional recipes should anyone be interested in trying them in preparation for the end-of-year holidays. Why, if they don't turn out properly edible, you could always use the end results as paper weights, or as projectiles to keep the crows away from the kale and brusselsprouts in your wintry backyards. (I remember one of our Scottish friends--perhaps Sandy?--a long time ago telling us a number of ways of making and variously using Scottish _parritch_ 'porridge' other than eating it, and I vaguely remember it involved drawers (of the cupboard type, fortunately not of the underwear type) and other unexpected things. I have to try and dig that one up from he depths of our pre-LINGUIST archive.) Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Delectables Ron wrote: > In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffernüsse_), as you already > know. > In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" > out of > a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low > German) _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ (['pe:p3nø:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same > form > for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is > "gingerbread nut(s)." > > (* North Saxon _Pepernööt_ ~ _Päpernööt_ and Plautdietsch _Päpanät_ > correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most > eastern > dialects unrounds /ö/ to /e/ and /ü/ to /i/.) > > There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent > _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have > never > heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version > *_Peperkoken_ > (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by > some. > Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], > literally > "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread > (German > _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by > origin > (at least in Northern Germany). > > I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not > only > literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, > including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of > Dutch > imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indië_, namely mostly from > what > is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In Dutch, pepernoten are also called kruidnoten ('spice nuts'). They are not completely the same, but I don't know about ingredients, though. This Honingkuchen is known in the Netherlands under the names "kruidkoek" and "ontbijtkoek". The general assumption is that this 'bread' of 'cake' originated in Friesland or Groningen, but these kinds of cakes (often with 'kandijsuiker-brokken' on top) are very general in the entire country. Also, one of the most famous ontbijkoek-bakeries is from Brabant...(picture: http://www.peijnenburg.nl/main/images/500-ok-01-01.gif) Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:21:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:21:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.03 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl Subject: Language varieties Mike Wintzer and Colin Wilson wrote: > >I find about the same degree of Latin (Norman) > >superstrate in Scots as in English. Shouldn´t one expect rather less > >Normannic words in Scots than in English if the a.m. supposition was > true? > > Not at all. Indeed, for centuries Scotland and France not only were > allies against their common enemy, England, but also traded with each > other a great deal, and so one might even expect to see *more And George M Gibault wrote: > The presence of many French loan words in Scots is not at all > surprising > for three reasons: > 1. French was the "universal" (in Europe) language of culture in the > Middle > Ages > 2. There were close political ties between France and Scotland, which > often > allied against England > - in fact there is a Scots term for this - the "Auld Alliance." Bonnie > Prince Charlie, for example, spoke French as his first language > 3. There was a significant French immigration to Scotland in the 11th > and > 12th centuries (which few Scots realize) - such typically Scots names > as > Fraser Archibald and Stewart for example being Norman and Breton in > origin. I can confirm this, at university (I study regional planning) we recently discussed the differences en simularities between European justice and planning systems. It was noticable that Scotland shares the basics with France, the Netherlands etc. ('Napoleonic system'), whereas the other British nations are clearly different than the rest of Europe ('British system'). Clearly there was some sort of alliance between Scotland and France. Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:26:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:26:44 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.03 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] Sandy wrote: >It doesn't follow. > >All your examples do is establish a trend - you also have >to establish why this trend should persist. Although >languages may be dying out wholesale, languages exist in >many different situations and have a lot of individuality. >Just because a population is declining doesn't mean all but >a few will survive. It could even be said that trends are >made to be broken because they carry the seeds of their own >destruction, in the form of the idea that quantity produces >quality. An increasing trend is a question of something >being piled on steadily until something changes - a pile of >child's bricks is just too high and finally topples over, >the people rebel against the latest minor tax increase >because some personal wealth threshhold has been crossed. >On the other hand the qualitative change that finally >results from a persistent trend can be productive - a >critical mass is reached and things can begin to happen. > >Diminishing trends can be more predictable - instead of a >critical mass being reached, the thing can get insupportably >small and disappear. This is probably what raises concerns >about language death. > >However, your examples also seem selective, in the sense >that they all indicate diminishing trends. There are also >increasing trends in Scots, particularly with written >Scots - although a lot of the Scots written in the 20th >century has been poorer quality than ever before, the >"Lallans Movement" still established the idea that Scots >doesn't have to be written as a dialect of English and in >fact only really works if it isn't. The later 20th century >also saw the publication of Lorimer's New Testament, which >is in what might be the best Scots ever written. > >Although it seems as if Lorimer has been largely ignored, >it actually represents a serious trend-breaking possibility. >It certainly lays low the old idea that Scots is only suited >to the writing of humour and reminiscences. How do we know >there isn't some brilliant young writer with a reasonable >Scots-speaking background who's capable of integrating the >lessons in Lorimer with his own background to produce >outstanding works in Scots that will be so good that people >will want to read it in spite of not being familiar with >written Scots? > >This sort of thing has happened before. Fergusson and Ramsay >were writing very good stuff, and when a relatively uneducated >genius like Burns came on the scene, there was Fergusson and >Ramsay's Scots diction for him to study and become familiar >with how to write Scots. Burns wasn't really recognised in >his time, but within a century his works were on the shelves >of most Scottish households, beside the King James Bible. The >effect of even a single book like this shouldn't be underestimated >in the preservation of a living language - I myself remember >pulling the Burns book from my parents' bookshelf at an early >age and finding out for the first time that Scots could be written. > >Although this is about written Scots, I think that there may >come a time when there's a critical mass of written Scots, >after which many more people will start writing it, and as a >result, speaking it better and in wider social circles. A >qualitative change like this depends on a critical mass being >reached. This is why I think ScotsteXt is important: whereas >before only a few books have been readily available in Scots >(mainly Burns and Lorimer - don't miss the fact that although >Lorimer seems to be ignored, he always sells well enough to >stay in print) now there are hundreds. It's not just the >enjoyment of being able to read all those texts, it's also >the statement that Scots has a huge literature, and the study >resources being available for any writers who may want to >continue this great tradition and extend the literature. > >The 20th Century saw the publication of the SND and now we >have Colin's book as the latest addition to the critical mass. >Think of what we have now that we didn't have until relatively >recently: > >Huge ten-volume language dictionary; >New Testament in extremely high-register Scots; >Major text book for learners, with tapes; >Large body of Scots literature readily available worldwide; >Parliament that might yet be persuaded to provide decent > translations of its bumph into Scots; >And so on. > >As Ron has pointed out, the existence of the Internet opens up >many new possibilities for breaking trends, no matter how long >they may have been established. You can either go down the >plughole with the prophets of doom, or you can seize the >opportunity and try to rescue at least your own language! There remains, however, the problem that most of the things you cite as advances in Scots are totally unknown to the vast majority of the Scots-speaking population. Those who do know about these advances are perhaps just as (more?) likely to be monolingual English speakers, because they inhabit the educational echelons where these advances are recognised. What Scots speakers are more likely to come across are (a) Trainspotting, and (b) Chewin' the Fat and similar programmes, both of which reinforce the image of Scots as the language of (a) drug addicts, and (b) persons, shall we say, of less than average intelligence. This leaves the problem which my illustrations (um!) illustrate! The identification of Scots with 'low' culture - an identification largely perpetrated by middle-class speakers of English - reinforces rather than counters the tendency for English to be associated with advancement and 'niceness'. And much of the 'Scots' produced specifically in order to advance Scots and to prove that it can be 'nice' - such as James Robertson's book on the Scottish Parliament - may be 'nice', but unfortunately isn't Scots. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 21:36:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:36:34 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Lowland cat terms - moggie Hi all! Some - but not all of my English friends use the term "moggie" as an affectionate term for a cat or kitten. I wonder if there are other terms not cognate with cat used for cats, kittens or kinds of them in varieties of Lowlands. I have a ginger cat - but do you use the word for ginger to describe such felines - or do you call her a rooikop or some such? What about "tabby?" Angora turns out to be dialect for Ankara - so these are Turks! I wonder if "moggie" is from the same root as magie (small stomach or tummy in Afrikaans) The "same" but different word means "magic" - a connotation of cats as witches' familiars perhaps? I thought Billy was a random name for a cat as in the TV series Billy the cat until I learned that billi is a Punjabi word for cat - so now I am less certain that it is a coincidence. Any Lowland cat terms appreciated! Best wishes George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 21:38:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:38:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.03 (05) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (10) [D/E] > From: Marco Evenhuis evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (06) [E] [Luc Hellinckx]: > > > Inderdaad, het chronologisch woordenboek geeft ons een interessante > > analyse. Maar er worden daaruit hooguit 90 woorden vermeld. > > Toen ik met mijn fluo-stift een etymologisch woordenboek doorbladerde, > > vond ik er toch een 400-tal. > > Daarbij moet je ook naar de zinsconstructies zelf kijken Frans is zo > > anders dan de andere Romaanse talen, precies door die Frankische > > invloed. Een Franse en een Latijnse zin tonen veel minder overeenkomst > > dan een Franse en een Vlaamse zin. [Marco Evenhuis]: > Zou dat laatste niet vooral veroorzaakt > worden door de Franse invloed op het > Vlaams in plaats van een Germaans- > Frankisch substraat in het Frans? Ik be- > doel, wanneer ik naar mijn eigen Zeeuws > kijk, daar bestaan lijsten van met honder- > den Zeeuwse woorden van Franse kom- > af. Zou het aantal Franse leenwoorden > naar het zuiden toe geen veelvoud zijn > van wat er hier, waar het Frans nooit een > rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld, > al niet te vinden is? Beste Marco, Ik onderschrijf ten volle jouw suggestie dat de overeenkomst tussen Vlaams en Frans wel eens voor een aardig deel zou kunnen zijn ontstaan door invloed van Frans op het Vlaams. Maar de opmerking dat Frans hier "nooit een rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld" lijkt me wat kort door de bocht. Ten eerste natuurlijk op bestuurlijk niveau wel, ten tweede via handel ook wel, en ten derde zijn er in Zeeland dacht ik behoorlijk wat Hugenoten neergestreken. Groeten, Floor van Lamoen. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 21:39:58 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:39:58 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.03 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Language survival" > From: John M. Tait > Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] > > There remains, however, the problem that most of the things you cite as > advances in Scots are totally unknown to the vast majority of the > Scots-speaking population. Those who do know about these advances are > perhaps just as (more?) likely to be monolingual English speakers, because > they inhabit the educational echelons where these advances are recognised. > What Scots speakers are more likely to come across are (a) Trainspotting, > and (b) Chewin' the Fat and similar programmes, both of which > reinforce the > image of Scots as the language of (a) drug addicts, and (b) persons, shall > we say, of less than average intelligence. This leaves the > problem which my I already suggested the solution to this 'problem', by saying that we need to build up a critical mass of suitable materials until the general populace does find itself 'ignited' with an awareness of this sort of thing. Books like Trainspotting and programmes like Chewin' the Fat are deliberately written in such a way as to be understandable by the English-speaking populace, and this is why they're widely popular. If you're promoting Scots as a language then whatever you produce has a built-in disadvantage because the written language isn't taught and so can be inaccessible even for many Scots speakers. However, things like Colin's book gradually make better Scots more accessible, not necessarily immediately to the general populace but it has a good chance of raising the awareness of more educated people such as teachers, who might then be better equipped to point the way for others. This is the sort of thing that can provide and awareness of Scots as high culture rather than low. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 21:54:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:54:25 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (07) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Delectables" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Delectables > > There must be thousands of recipes for _Pfeffernsse_, _Pepernt_ and > _pepernoten_. Usually, pepper is not one of its ingredients, > though I have > heard that someone adds black pepper to her _Pfeffernsse_, perhaps only > because of the name. The ingredients tend to be similar to those of > gingerbread, but the dough is rolled into small balls before > baking, and the > baked balls tend to get some, usually white, sugar frosting or glazing on > top. Like gingerbread, they are hard and chewy (at least originally) and > are (were) meant for long-time storage without refrigeration. Like > gingerbread, they count among traditional staple Christmas treats. The traditional Scottish treat for Hogmanay is "black bun", which is a heavily spiced, dense, chewy black mixture which is made with dried frruit (mainly raisins, I think) a few months in advance of eating, in order to give it time to mature. It's wrapped in a shell of very thin, hard pastry to trap in the flavour over these months. It's cut into slices for serving, as gingerbread would be, although it's very different. I wonder if there's any connection here with Pepernööt? > (I remember one of our Scottish friends--perhaps Sandy?--a long time ago > telling us a number of ways of making and variously using Scottish > _parritch_ 'porridge' other than eating it, and I vaguely remember it > involved drawers (of the cupboard type, fortunately not of the underwear > type) and other unexpected things. I have to try and dig that one up from > the depths of our pre-LINGUIST archive.) This story originated about 25 years ago with a friend who told me that his grandfather used to make porridge in a drawer every Monday morning and cut a slice off for breakfast each day of the week. This rang a bell with me, as if I'd heard of my own grandfather, or great grandfather, or whoever, doing this. I don't know how widespread it was or whether it was just an eccentricity, but it seems logical in an older generation where houses were cold (hence carvable porridge) and fires took time to light in the morning. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Delectables Sandy, Lawlanders, Here's a bit that I found in the older archive -- nice, albeit not really what I was hoping for: From: Sandy Fleming Subject: Re: LL-L: "Scots" [E/S], LOWLANDS-L, 31.JUL.1998 (06) In message , "R. Hahn" writes > Cuid a scotophile Continental Saxon lik me dae it an aet it an still be > tae the fore? Wid it mak me mair Scotish or it least mair acceptable > in Scotish een? Wull it be the naitional mait o free Scotlan? Is > there a Scotish parritch cuikbuik? Gin there's nane, whit for no? Ower > monie threips anent the cuikin an aetin and spellin o hit? > >So? Ron, there'll be nae airgyment gin ye mak yer parritch the Fleimin wey! Ye need: 1 (ae) bowle 1 (ae) spurtler 1/2 (hauf) mug o aits 1 (ae) mug o watter saut 1 (ae) microwave oven (pronoonced "oaven") Cowp watter & aits inti bowle, microwave on ful pouer for 2m30s, fling saut in an gie it a steir. Onybody airgies, gie them 1 (ae) rap on fingers wi spurtler. That's what the spurtler's _for_! Cheers! Reinhard/Ron P.S.: A _spurtler_ (or _spurtle_) is a porridge stirrer. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 22:05:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:05:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (08) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] Dear Eldo, > From: Eldo Neufeld > Subject: LL-L Festivals > > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Päpanät" (Ger: > Pfeffernüsse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "Päpanät?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Päpanät (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. I do not know about the "gingernuts". But I do know that "pepernoten" in the Netherlands are connected to the gift giving day Sinterklaas (5 Dec), which I suggest will be the origin of the Plautdietsch Päpanät. Of course among the sweets that are given to children at "Sint Maarten" - known in mostly northern parts of the Netherlands - are "pepernoten" as well, but they don't play a key role. St. Maarten was discussed on this list in Nov 1996. Let me quote a small Grunnens LS song that was posted then by Erik Springelkamp: Mien lutje lanteern Ik sai die zo geern Ik loop langs de stroat'n da ken ik nait loat'n Mien lutje lanteern Ik sai die zo geern Groeten, Floor van Lamoen. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Festivals Here is a translation of Floor's Groningen Lowlands Saxon lantern song into Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) from not that much farther east across the NL-DE border: Mien lüttje Lanteern, Ik seh di so geern. Ik loop langs de straat'n. Da' kann ik nich laat'n. Mien lüttje Lanteern, Ik seh di so geern The difference is mostly orthographic (Dutch- vs. German-based). In many dialects _she_ would be _seih_ [za.I] too. Rough translation: My little lantern, I love seeing you. I walk down the streets, Just don't want to stop. My little lantern, I love seeing you. Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 23:33:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:33:56 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Anja Meyfarth Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.09.27 (07) [E] Hello Lowlanders, Gary wrote (already some time ago): > If your interested, Romanian has 'mamä' and 'tatä' > (written here with the wrong final accent, because I > don't have the appropriate one on my keyboard) as > standard words for mother and father, which has led to > the rare state of a masculine word (tatä) ending in > -ä. and Ron answered: > Thus, it is _mama_ 'mother' and _tata_ 'father', pronounced > somewhat like Yiddish _mame_ and _tate_, which I assume are derived from > them. "Tate" is known in North Frisian dialects too, I don`t know where it comes from. Theory seems to be that it is baby-speech, _t_ being one of the first sounds litle children can produce. Greetings from Kiel, Anja Meyfarth ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 23:38:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:38:37 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] >From: Eldo Neufeld >Subject: LL-L Festivals > >Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern >Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house >singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In >Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at >Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Pä°¡nä´¢ (Ger: >Pfefferní²í³¥, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might >possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and >"Pä°¡nä´¿" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no >mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Pä°¡nä´ (after >baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites >everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around >Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. > >Eldo Neufeld >4040 Blenheim St. >Vancouver, BC V6L 2Y9 >Tel: (604) 738-4378 Hello Eldo ! When I wrote about >gingernuts< it was because I didn't know a better translation for our Eastern Friesland LS word >pe:perno"o"ten< (~e:~ is a long ~e~ and ~o"~ is o-Umlaut - You know the problems with displaying diacritics in my postings !?). Of course >pe:perno"o"ten< is the same word as Your >Pa"pana"t< (German: Pfeffernüsse). They are a kind of spiced cookies, very solid. Unfortunately I don't know the recipe but I'll hear around. Kind regards Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Delectables PEPPERNÖÖT - PFEFFERNÜSSE (Gingerbread Nuts, German) (1) Soft butter 4 cup all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon double-acting baking powder 1 teaspoon ground cloves 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon 3/4 cup honey 1 cup dark corn syrup 3/4 cup sugar 2 tablespoon butter 1 tablespoon lard (optional) Preheat the oven to 400 degrees (F). Coat two large baking sheets lightly with butter. Combine the flour, baking powder, cloves, allspice and cinnamon in a bowl, and set aside. In a deep, heavy 5- to 6-quart saucepan, bring the honey, corn syrup and sugar to a boil over moderate heat, stirring until the sugar dissolves. Reduce the heat to low and simmer, uncovered, for 5 minutes. Remove the pan from the heat, add the butter and lard, and stir until melted. Beat in the flour mixture, a cup so at a time. When the batter is smooth, drop it by teaspoonfuls onto the baking sheets, leaving an inch or so between the cookies. Bake in the middle of the oven for about 15 minutes, or until the cookies are firm to the touch and light brown. Transfer them to a cake rack to cool, and proceed with the remaining batches, coating the baking sheets with a little butter each time. If you like, you may brush the cookies while still warm with the almond glaze for _Honigkuchen_, Honey Cake. _Pfeffernüsse_ can be stored for 6 to 8 weeks in tightly sealed jars or tins. Makes about 30 cookies. They tend to be covered with sugar glaze (powdered sugar and water solution). (2) 1/3 cup dark corn syrup 1/4 cup honey 1/4 cup sugar 1/4 cup shortening 1 beaten egg 2 1/4 cups flour 1/2 teaspoon baking soda 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon powdered sugar Melt the corn syrup, honey, sugar and shortening in a medium heavy saucepan until the shortening melts and the sugar dissolves. Cool until barely lukewarm. In a large bowl, beat the egg, then add the corn-syrup mixture. In a small bowl, whisk together the flour and spices. Mix the flour into the corn-syrup mixture until well blended. Dough can be chilled at this time to develop flavor for up to 48 hours. Preheat oven to 375 degrees and lightly grease cookie sheets. Taking one tablespoon of dough for each cookie, roll into balls between the palms of your hands and place on prepared cookie sheets. Bake for eight to 10 minutes, or until just pale golden. Cool on wire racks and dust with powdered sugar. Store in airtight containers. PEPERNOTEN (Gingerbread Nuts, Dutch) 150 g self raising flour 75 g castor sugar (the brown variety, if possible) 90 g butter 2 tbsp milk 3 teaspoon _speculaaskruiden_ (if you can get this mixture) _Speculaaskruiden_ is a mixture of cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, pimento, mace, ground ginger, and cardamom, but leaving out some of the more exotic spices will not be disastrous. Mix ingredients into a dough that can be easily managed (add a little more milk if too crumbly, a little more flour if too wet). Form into balls the size of a small marble, Put them on a greased baking tray in the middle of a pre-heated oven (150'C) for about 15-20 minutes. Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 00:22:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:22:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] >From: Eldo Neufeld >Subject: LL-L Festivals > >Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern >Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house >singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In >Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at >Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Pä°¡nä´¢ (Ger: >Pfefferní²í³¥, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might >possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and >"Pä°¡nä´¿" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no >mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Pä°¡nä´ (after >baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites >everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around >Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. > >Eldo Neufeld >4040 Blenheim St. >Vancouver, BC V6L 2Y9 >Tel: (604) 738-4378 Hello Eldo ! When I wrote about >gingernuts< it was because I didn't know a better translation for our Eastern Friesland LS word >pe:perno"o"ten< (~e:~ is a long ~e~ and ~o"~ is o-Umlaut - You know the problems with displaying diacritics in my postings !?). Of course >pe:perno"o"ten< is the same word as Your >Pa"pana"t< (German: Pfeffernüsse). They are a kind of spiced cookies, very solid. Unfortunately I don't know the recipe but I'll hear around. Kind regards Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Delectables PEPPERNÖÖT - PFEFFERNÜSSE (Gingerbread Nuts, German) (1) Soft butter 4 cup all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon double-acting baking powder 1 teaspoon ground cloves 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon 3/4 cup honey 1 cup dark corn syrup 3/4 cup sugar 2 tablespoon butter 1 tablespoon lard (optional) Preheat the oven to 400 degrees (F). Coat two large baking sheets lightly with butter. Combine the flour, baking powder, cloves, allspice and cinnamon in a bowl, and set aside. In a deep, heavy 5- to 6-quart saucepan, bring the honey, corn syrup and sugar to a boil over moderate heat, stirring until the sugar dissolves. Reduce the heat to low and simmer, uncovered, for 5 minutes. Remove the pan from the heat, add the butter and lard, and stir until melted. Beat in the flour mixture, a cup so at a time. When the batter is smooth, drop it by teaspoonfuls onto the baking sheets, leaving an inch or so between the cookies. Bake in the middle of the oven for about 15 minutes, or until the cookies are firm to the touch and light brown. Transfer them to a cake rack to cool, and proceed with the remaining batches, coating the baking sheets with a little butter each time. If you like, you may brush the cookies while still warm with the almond glaze for _Honigkuchen_, Honey Cake. _Pfeffernüsse_ can be stored for 6 to 8 weeks in tightly sealed jars or tins. Makes about 30 cookies. They tend to be covered with sugar glaze (powdered sugar and water solution). (2) 1/3 cup dark corn syrup 1/4 cup honey 1/4 cup sugar 1/4 cup shortening 1 beaten egg 2 1/4 cups flour 1/2 teaspoon baking soda 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon powdered sugar Melt the corn syrup, honey, sugar and shortening in a medium heavy saucepan until the shortening melts and the sugar dissolves. Cool until barely lukewarm. In a large bowl, beat the egg, then add the corn-syrup mixture. In a small bowl, whisk together the flour and spices. Mix the flour into the corn-syrup mixture until well blended. Dough can be chilled at this time to develop flavor for up to 48 hours. Preheat oven to 375 degrees and lightly grease cookie sheets. Taking one tablespoon of dough for each cookie, roll into balls between the palms of your hands and place on prepared cookie sheets. Bake for eight to 10 minutes, or until just pale golden. Cool on wire racks and dust with powdered sugar. Store in airtight containers. PEPERNOTEN (Gingerbread Nuts, Dutch) 150 g self raising flour 75 g castor sugar (the brown variety, if possible) 90 g butter 2 tbsp milk 3 teaspoon _speculaaskruiden_ (if you can get this mixture) _Speculaaskruiden_ is a mixture of cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, pimento, mace, ground ginger, and cardamom, but leaving out some of the more exotic spices will not be disastrous. Mix ingredients into a dough that can be easily managed (add a little more milk if too crumbly, a little more flour if too wet). Form into balls the size of a small marble, Put them on a greased baking tray in the middle of a pre-heated oven (150'C) for about 15-20 minutes. Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 14:22:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:22:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.04 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Vlaams enz. Hoi Marco, Misschien een idee dat je een aanvullend stuk over 'naamgeving' of iets dergelijks schrijft (een bewerking van wat je hieronder hebt geschreven), dan kunnen we dat toevoegen aan de pagina over Vlaams. Ron's stuk over Nedersaksisch heeft ook een paragraaf over naamgeving, dus misschien in die trant... Wellicht kun je wat kortsluiten met de auteur, Luc Vanbrabant? groeten, Mathieu Aanhalen Marco Evenhuis : > Hoi, > > > Ik ook! Vrij lastig dat hij enerzijds taalkundig een overeenkomst met > Zeeuws > > beschijft, maar politiek gezien beschouwd hij het algemene Belgische > Nederlands > > óók als Vlaams... > > Precies. En de aloude aaneensmeding van Oost- en West-Vlaams is > taalkundig > totale onzin. Zelfs de redacteuren van het Woordenboek van de Vlaamse > Dialecten geven in inleidingen op hun werk grif toe dat taalkundige > overeenkomsten binnen hun werkgebied (Frans-, West-, Zeeuws- en > Oost-Vlaanderen) minder belangrijk zijn dan het feit dat al deze > gebieden > tesamen ooit het Nederlandstalige deel van het graafschap Vlaanderen > vormden. > West-Vlaanderen, Frans-Vlaanderen en Zeeland zijn taalkundig gezien nog > nauwer verwant dan de meeste Nedersaksische dialecten. Het Oost-Vlaams > verschilt méér van het zuid-Brabants dan het Noord-Brabants dat doet, > maar > de verschillen met Zeeuws/West-vlaams zijn nog veel groter. > > Het zal nog wel wat kunst- en vliegwerk vergen om dat op de site tot > ieders > tevredenheid recht te breien. De hamvraag luidt uiteraard: van welke > bron of > welke auteur ga je uit en hoeveel belang hecht je aan persoonlijke > opvattingen? > > > > Ook omdat het hele Zeeuws/West-Vlaamse-Vlaamse verhaal nu al voor > een > > > aantal > > > vervelende inconsistenties op de site heeft gezorgd. > > > > Inderdaad, want moet Vlaams nu ook als aparte taal genoemd worden? > Terwijl > > Vlaams (als in: Oost-Vlaams) wordt gezien als een belangrijke > bouwsteen > van de > > Nederlandse standaardtaal. > > Nog even in het kort mijn idee: West-Vlaams, Frans-Vlaams, West- en > Midden-Zeeuws-Vlaams en Zeeuws vormen samen de Friso-Frankische > zuidwestgroep van de Nederlandse taalvarianten. Oost-Vlaams is een > Frankisch > overgangsgebied tussen West-Vlaams/Zeeuws en Brabants, maar sluit > zuiver > taalkundig gezien meer bij het (eveneens Frankische) Brabants dan bij > het > West-Vlaams/Zeeuws aan. > Aardig ijkpunt: Zeeuwen en West-Vlamingen doen aan code-switching > wanneer > zij geconfronteerd worden met een spreker van het Standaardnederlands > (ze > schakelen dus tussen twee min of meer 'zuivere' taalvarianten). > Oost-Vlamingen passen hun taal, net als Brabanders, in stapjes aan aan > de > gesprekspartner. Maw, iemand kan wel een béétje of een beetje veel > Oost-Vlaams of Brabants praten (en het gewoon Oost-Vlaams of Brabants > noemen > bovendien), maar met Zeeuws en West-Vlaams is dat onmogelijk. Je spreekt > óf > Zeeuws óf AN. Er is geen tussenweg. Dat er mensen zijn, die zich in het > AN > niet altijd evengoed weten te redden, is een heel andere kwestie. > > Probleem blijft natuurlijk dat het begrip Vlaams zowel wordt gebruikt > voor > de Zuid-Nederlandse standaardtaal als (door de sprekers) het Oost- én > het > West-Vlaams. Sprekers maken dus voor wat betreft de benaming van hun > taal > geen onderscheid tussen Oost en West, alhoewel de jongere generaties > West-Vlamingen steeds vaker een voorkeur voor 'West-Vlaams' boven > 'Vlaams' > laten zien. In Oost-Vlaanderen weet ik niet precies hoe dat laatste met > de > jongste generaties precies zit. > > Afijn, we komen er wel uit. Groeten, > > Marco ---------- From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.03 (05) [D] Ik schreef: > > Zou dat laatste niet vooral veroorzaakt > > worden door de Franse invloed op het > > Vlaams in plaats van een Germaans- > > Frankisch substraat in het Frans? Ik be- > > doel, wanneer ik naar mijn eigen Zeeuws > > kijk, daar bestaan lijsten van met honder- > > den Zeeuwse woorden van Franse kom- > > af. Zou het aantal Franse leenwoorden > > naar het zuiden toe geen veelvoud zijn > > van wat er hier, waar het Frans nooit een > > rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld, > > al niet te vinden is? Floor van Lamoen schreef: > Ik onderschrijf ten volle jouw suggestie dat de overeenkomst tussen > Vlaams en Frans wel eens voor een aardig deel zou kunnen zijn ontstaan > door invloed van Frans op het Vlaams. Maar de opmerking dat Frans hier > "nooit een rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld" lijkt me wat kort > door de bocht. Ten eerste natuurlijk op bestuurlijk niveau wel, ten > tweede via handel ook wel, en ten derde zijn er in Zeeland dacht ik > behoorlijk wat Hugenoten neergestreken. Beste Floor, Inderdaad, 'geen rol van betekenis' is inderdaad wat overdreven. Toch durf ik te betwijfelen of het gebruik van Frans in sommige bestuurlijke en/of aristocratische kringen hier in Zeeland van dien aard was, dat dat enige weerslag van beteke- nis heeft gehad op de volkstaal. De invloed van de handel lijkt me in dit verband zelfs te verwaarlozen, gezien de handelspartners van Zeeland door de eeuwen heen. De invloed van de Hugenoten is echter een stuk interessanter. Hoewel de instroom van Hugeno- ten (vooral na het Edict van Nantes; 1648?) in getal (relatief) vergelijkbaar is met recente immi- gratiestromen en net als bij diezelfde recente im- migranten de oorspronkelijke moedertaal van de Hugenoten in drie, hooguit vier generaties is ver- dwenen, was hun economische én maatschappe- lijk-culturele invloed waarschijnlijk veel groter dan die van andere immigratiestromen. Even een hele simpele vergelijking om dit te illu- streren: hoe groot de invloed van de Franstalige Hugenoten op de lokale omgangstaal is, is onbe- kend, maar je mag toch aannemen dat zeker een deel van de Franse leenwoorden in het Zeeuws van deze groep afkomstig is. Die invloed moet dan in een tijdsbestek van drie à vier generaties gerealiseerd zijn. Hier op Souburg zijn zo'n vijftig jaar geleden enkele honderden Molukkers neergestreken op een bevolking van (toen) ongeveer 4.500. In getal deden ze wat dat betreft ook relatief gezien ongetwijfeld niet onder voor het aantal Huge- noten een paar eeuwen eerder. Toch geloof ik niet dat er ook maar één Moluks-Maleis woord in de lokale omgangstaal is doorgedrongen. En dat terwijl ondertussen de derde generatie Moluk- kers volwassen is en zich een vierde generatie aan- dient. Samenvattend: de rol van het Frans in Zeeland is naar mijn bescheiden mening weliswaar nooit echt groot geweest (zeker niet in vergelijkin met Vlaanderen; en daar is deze discussie tenslotte mee begonnen), maar de waarschijnlijke invloed van de Franstalige Hugenoten op onze taal (hoe- wel nooit onderzocht en gekwantificeerd) is naar mijn idee in vergelijking met andere factoren (Franstalige adel en bestuurslieden, handel, 'door- stroom' van Franse woorden via Picardië en Vlaan- deren, etc.) buitenproportioneel groot. Wellicht dat de Zeeuwen van weleer opkeken tegen deze 'verlichte' nieuwkomers? Met groeten, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 14:29:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:29:23 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (04) [E] Hi George, the first term that springs to mind would be the Dutch "poes", similar to the English "pussycat". But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told us that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, I haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). That certainly explains what my three cats keep trying to tell me!! Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Gabriele wrote: > But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told us > that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, I > haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). Wolof _mew_ 'milk' ('Cat' is _moos_.) Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 16:06:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:06:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (02) [E] Ron Haan wrote: > Wolof _mew_ 'milk' > > ('Cat' is _moos_.) Ron, is there a language you DON'T speak?? Forgive the silly question - of course there isn't!! :-) That gives the name of my translation bureau - Global Moose - a whole new meaning... I think my cats will want me to drop the final "e" now. There's also the German "Mieze" for cat; doesn't that have a Lower Saxon equivalent, too? Regards, Gabriele Kahn > From: Global Moose Translations > Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (04) [E] > > Hi George, > > the first term that springs to mind would be the Dutch "poes", similar to > the English "pussycat". > > But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told us > that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, I > haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). That certainly > explains what my three cats keep trying to tell me!! > > Cheers, > Gabriele Kahn > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com > Subject: Lexicon > > Gabriele wrote: > > > But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told > us > > that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, > I > > haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). > > Wolof _mew_ 'milk' > > ('Cat' is _moos_.) > > Cheers! > Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Gabriele wrote: > Ron, is there a language you DON'T speak?? > Forgive the silly question - of course there isn't!! :-) Gabriele, come on now! Of course I don't *speak* that many! In my case it's more a matter of theory, memory, connections and resource availability, accumulated over more years than I care to think about. It also so happens that I have Wolof-speaking Senegalese acquaintances. (Wolof is spoken in the Gambia as well.) > That gives the name of my translation bureau - Global Moose - a whole new > meaning... I think my cats will want me to drop the final "e" now. Right. Unfortunately, Wolof _o_ is pronounced as in _pot_, so _moos_ sounds like "moss" with vowel doubling or lengthening. Sorry about that, but cheer up! Here comes the consolation prize: Wolof _muus_, pronounced pretty much like Lowlands Saxon _Muus_ 'mouse', also means 'cat' (dialectal variant), and this word is also used to call cats (like "Come here, Pussy, Pussy!"). Back to the *European* Lowlands, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the basic word for 'cat' is _Katt_ ~ _kat_ ([kat]). You can also say _Muuschkatt_ (['mu:Skat]), _Muusch_ ([mu:S]), _Muuskatt_ (['mu:skat]), or _Puus_ ([pu:s]), or you can use the nickname _Böönhaas'_ (['bø:nhQ:.z] ~ ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 18:13:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:13:10 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (04) [D/E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Reinhard wrote: > Back to the *European* Lowlands, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the basic > word for 'cat' is _Katt_ ~ _kat_ ([kat]). You can also say _Muuschkatt_ > (['mu:Skat]), _Muusch_ ([mu:S]), _Muuskatt_ (['mu:skat]), or _Puus_ > ([pu:s]), or you can use the nickname _Böönhaas'_ (['bø:nhQ:.z] ~ > ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). Dat is interessant, want in het Nederlands hebben we het woord 'beunhaas' met dezelfde oorspronkelijke betekenis (attic hare) maar het duidt nu iemand aan die een bepaald beroep verricht in z'n vrije tijd zonder de juiste opleiding of papieren. Er is zelfs een werkwoord 'beunhazen'. Gustaaf ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Beste Gustaaf, Nipp un nau datsülvige Bedüden kann neddersassisch/nedderdüütsch _Böönhaas'_ ~ _Böhnhaas' (nedderlandsch schreven "beunhaoz" mit 't "ao" besünners lang) ook hebben! Up ("Hoog"-)Düütsch kann 'n dat as "Pfuscher" or "unzünftiger Handwerker" översetten. Man vun'n Verb heff ik noch niks höört. Kann 't liekers geven. Folks, Gustaaf and I noticed that the nickname for 'cat' (_Böönhaas'_ "attic hare") in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) can in both Dutch and LS also mean 'tinker', 'boggler', anything like 'barely qualified/trained amateur (who works in the attic, D _beun_, LS _Böön_)'. In Dutch (and in LS?) there is even a derived verb! Groetjes/Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 18:55:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:55:25 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: Kakatoe-Kakadu Hi Ron-of Many-Languages Heartened by the latest exchanges about Wolof, I dare to ask again a question that may have got lost in the latest week or so's mail: According to my Oxford Etymological the word _cockatoo_ comes from Malay _kakatua_ (mening "big parrot"), the English rendering possibly influenced by another bird's name, the cock. In Danish the word is _kakadu_, contaminated by another bird, the dove, in Danish "due". It is derived from Dutch _kaketoe_, the books say. Is there any possible connection to the Australian _Kakadu_, a name for both a (recently deceased) language, a tribe/people/nation and a National Park where the bird in question lives?(also endangered, I believe). It is also spelled Gagadju and Gagudju and lies in the Northern Territory where I think Dutchmen came by in the 16th century, leaving place names like Arnhem Land behind. Or is Danish Kakadu and Australian Kakadu just a coincidence, like the Dyirbal (another recently deceased Australian lg) word for "dog" is said to be - "dog"! Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Hi, Ole Stig! Now, now! I don't want to acquire a reputation I haven't really earned, even though I must confess that I did study Malay/Indonesian (only to let it gather a crust of dust and rust in the meantime). I did not ignore your posting, never ignore any. :) I've just been ruminating about it. You see, I have to confess that I--naively?--used to assume that "cockatoo," German _Kakadu_, etc., were related to the Kakadu ~ Gagadu ~ Gagadju ~ Gagudju people and the Kakadu National Park in Northern Australia. I was quite surprised when I heard that the word was supposed to have come from Malay via Dutch. Now, what is interesting is that the actual Malay/Indonesian word for 'cockatoo' and loosely also for 'parrot' is _burung kakak tua_, literally "kakak-tua bird" (with the final "k" unreleased, thus usually not perceived by European ears). Etymologically, it doesn't make any sense to me. _Kakak_ means 'elder sister' and also appears in _kakak beradik_ 'brethren', and _tua_ means 'old', 'ripe' or 'of dark color'. Of course, this _kakak tua_ could be onomatopoetic. I don't really doubt that European languages got their equivalents from Dutch via Malay/Indonesian. However, I wonder if the _kakak tua_ part in _burung kakak tua_ is native to Malay/Indonesian or is a loanword from an Australian language. I don't even know if cockatoos are native to Malaysia and Indonesia, but I do know that they are native to Australia. I don't know the Gagadu language and have no access to a reference book about it. I do know that in Warlpiri, also a northern language (Northern Territory), 'cockatoo' is _kakalyaya_. Since Malays and other people from the Indonesian Islands used to have contacts with the indigenous population of the Australian north coast for a long time (probably preceding European arrivals), which is also the reason why those people used boats and other items other Australians did not know, I don't consider it impossible that _kaka tua_ was the Indonesian rendering of the Gagadu people's name, thus _burung kakak tua_ *"Gagadu bird". Just a wild guess ... Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 20:58:47 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:58:47 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.04 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, Here's some administrative business. No, don't leave yet! Underneath the routine stuff is an "exciting" piece of news. (1) Since my last administrative message we have been joined by people from the following places: Norway: Oslo [1] United Kingdom: England: Leicestershire: Ashby de la Zouch [1] ? [1] United States of America: Arizona: Chandler [1] California: Slo [1] Mississippi: Water Valley [1] Utah: Salt Lake City [1] (2) On this list we deal with various language varieties and list words that are "foreign" to whatever language version of software you may be using. A couple of you use a "naughty language filter," which I can understand, especially if you are protective of children that you give access to your computer. However, please be aware that once in a while a foreign word may sound/spell like a "naughty" word in your language, and that the respective LL-L mailings bounce back to me as rejected, apart from the fact that you do not receive the offending mailing. Just now I got one such a rejection notification. Unlike others, however, it would not tell me what the protected address is, not even in the full header. Annoying! Well, it was one of today's "Lexicon" (LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (05) [E]) mailings about the word ... I dare not write it ... for a crested bird in the parrot family. There are two possible "naughty" candidates in there, one in English and the other in Dutch. If you want to view it online, please go to http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html. (3) There are still some problems with Hotmail accounts. Rudi Vári kindly helped me by testing what filter setting causes the problem. Our conclusion is that it's erratic and nonsensical. Banning new subscriptions of Hotmail accounts thus remains in force. (4) Today I would like to unveil our project "Lowlands Talk: An Introduction to the Language Varieties of the Lowlands." I do so somewhat reluctantly because the project is unfinished, albeit quite presentable, thanks to hard work, especially that of Mathieu van Woerkom. You can access the presentation if you go to our homepage (http://www.lowlands-l.net) and go to "Resources." The direct way is as follows: http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/ I suppose I need not say very much about it; you can tell yourselves what is there and what is still missing, and also who did or will do what (Acknowledgements), not to mention that help is still needed and how you can volunteer. Please bear in mind that some of the introductions and translations are being worked on (such as the English blurb). So keep checking. If you wish to help us, I can tell you what has not yet been started. Hopefully you will be able to tell that a few of us have done a lot of work. Praise and constructive criticism are welcome, volunteering even more. I want to thank all of you who have helped with the project, especially Onze Mathieu, Sandy Fleming and Roman Laryushkin, who, with yours truly, have been shouldering the lion share of the work so far. Friendly regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 21:08:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:08:28 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (07) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (05) [E] Reinhard wrote: > You see, I have to confess that I--naively?--used to > assume that "cockatoo," German _Kakadu_, etc., were related to the Kakadu ~ > Gagadu ~ Gagadju ~ Gagudju people and the Kakadu National Park in Northern > Australia. Same here, and I still think this would be too much of a coincidence. This reminds me of a Neerlands Hoop skit in the early seventies feat- uring an Indian (Native American) tribe and their "zwijgzame opperhoofd Kaketoe". Sorry the pun is untranslatable. Lest there be any doubt, I am not suggesting this as an alternative etymology ... Gustaaf Neerlands Hoop was a famous Dutch cabaret duo of the 1970's zwijgzaam = silent opperhoofd = chief Kaketoe ~ Kaken toe = jaws closed ---------- From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Ron, Gabriele, Leeglanners, Ron wrote as an answer on Gabriele's frolicsomeness (the first time I heard about the existence of a word like this [except some dog pellets], looking into my dic! It's a really funny and basic expression!): >or you can use the nickname _Böönhaas'_ (['bø:nhQ:.z] ~ > ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). Don't try a new shifting this steeple way, please, in Your "spheric" exchanges! *s* De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat wööer ne opp 'n Böö*n*, mann opp 'n Böö*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "Böön" in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? Mookt blaut wieter sau! :-) Kumpelmenten noo Jau beid! Fiete. (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." ("Iced Earth") ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Fiete: > De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat wööer ne opp 'n Böö*n*, mann opp 'n > Böö*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "Böön" in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? Klaar heett dat "Böön", tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _Bööm_ heff ik bitherto nich maal in Wöörböker funnen. Mi dücht, dat Woord "Böön" keem vun _boden_ > _böden_ af. Grötens, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: Un wat is daar "spheric" an? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 00:25:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 17:25:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (08) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (07) [E/LS] Ron schreef: > Klaar heett dat "Böön", tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel > snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _Bööm_ heff ik > bitherto nich maal in Wöörböker funnen. Mi dücht, dat Woord "Böön" keem vun > _boden_ > _böden_ af. That's funny, because they call the attic "Bühne" in the German Southwest (Schwaben), and I had never heard of a similar expression. In High German, "Bühne" means "stage", and I was very confused when I moved to Ulm 16 years ago to hear prospective landlords tell me the apartment came with a stage. Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Leeive Ron, Du hesst schreeven >> De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat wööer ne opp 'n Böö*n*, mann opp 'n >> Böö*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "Böö*n in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? >Klaar heett dat "Böö*n*, tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel >snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _Böö*m* heff ik >bitherto nich maal in Wöörbeukers funnen. Mi dücht dat Woord "Böö*n* keem vun >_boden_ > _böden_ af. > >Reinhard/Ron Mookst mi heel döörnein! Nee- ick bünn recht seeker, hier, an dennen "beusen", ook "leeigen" *s* Innen vonne Elv, waard "Böö(be)m" seggt, as (E) "bottom" (I assume, cognate of [UG] "Boden"). Wöörböökers! Hah! Is nu' tau loot, mien Mentors antauraupen. Schull ick opp'n verkeihrten Damper ween, schall ick mi woll monnen frauh foors melln! >P.S.: Un wat is daar "spheric" an? Door- gonnix! Mann- Jie beeid' snackt un schrievt sau 'n heel best *outraged* Ingelt (Ron: (E) "albeit"- heff 'ck in 15 Johrn Utbillen un Uutland keen einkeld Mool heurt), door sücht 'n "Schaul-Ingelten" as ick leeigh bi uut! Mann- ick kann't woll leesn, heff mien Spooss dooran, un- dauht mi eein Gefalln: wieter sau! Allerbest Kumpelmenten in 't Huus: Fiete. ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (07) [E/LS] From: Daniel Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subject: Lexicon > Fiete: > De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat wööer ne opp 'n Böö*n*, mann opp 'n > Böö*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "Böön" in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? > Ron: > Klaar heett dat "Böön", tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel > snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _Bööm_ heff ik > bitherto nich maal in Wöörböker funnen. Mi dücht, dat Woord "Böön" keem > > vun > _boden_ > _böden_ af. Leve Ron, Ik glööv wat "böön" öllerhaftiger is as "boden" > "böden" mid /d/- utfall. Vergliik mhd. / mnd. , laat up ahd * sluten. Verwandschup mid gift dat wol, avers gaait dat veel wider trüg, denk ik, vergliik ags. "schipsbodden". "Böön" is also in de like familie, avers nich dat like woord as "bodden". In de Baverdüütsch mundaarden segt man to`n bispeel in`t Schwäbisch "Bühne" (or /bi:n(e)/) un heet ook "böön". Dat etymoloogsche wöörbook vun Kluge snakt daar ook vun, wat germ. * mit öllerhaftige utfall vun en dentaal vöör *bhu(dh)niá upkeem. Versipt is wol ook Awestisch buna "bodden", un Ooldirisch bun "dat ünnere en". Grötens, Dan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Gabriele un Daniel, mit "Böön" un _Bühne_ möögt Ji wull recht hebben! Un Fiete, maak Du ook so wieder! Man Di bruuk ik sachs den Mood nich steilen. Grötens, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 18:22:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:22:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.02 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Afrikaans tapes etc. Hi! Many thanks to those who answered my questions about cat terms and Afrikaans phonetics. I hope I can be forgiven if I seemed too strident on the topic of not starting with the lawyers and politicians in language preservation. If I came off as insensitive in any way - that was NOT my intention. My apologies. Does anyone have a good source for Afrikaans sound recordings - tapes, cds, lps or videos? I hope you will all take a look at Afrikaans at some point. It is full of wonderfully humorous expressions. (many perhaps common to Dutch, Vlaams and Platt?) In English we say for an unintentional giving away of a secret "He let the cat out of the bag." In Afrikaans it is "Hy het die aap uit die mou laat kom."" He has let the ape come out of the sleeve." How can you not love a language in which porcupine comes out as "skekelvark" or the equally colourful "ystervark?" Best to all George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 18:25:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:25:59 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.02 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] Your question has intrigued me. I must tell you that I had assumed until recently that all Mennonites in North America were derived from South Germany and spoke variants of Hochdeutsch. I live in central Pennsylvania, an area that has been settled by people from Germany for the last 300 years or so. In this area, I have many personal contacts in the Team Mennonite community, as well as a few in the Old Order Amish community. The main difference between the two, as far as I can see, is that Amish do not use electricity and tractors, whereas the Team Mennonites use both. However, both use only horse drawn buggies for personal transportation. We use a Mennonite family to occasionally babysit our granddaughter and I can't tell you how excited she was several weeks ago to go shopping in a horse drawn buggy. The daily language of both communities is "Pennsylvania Dutch (Deutsch)". If you really want to be sure of communicating, that is the language that you would use here. This language is based on Schwaebisch, since the ancestors of most of these people came from Schwaben, Switzerland and Elsass. Anyway, I asked several of these families about Pfeffernuesse. They had all heard about them but had never eaten them. This amazed me because I cannot imagine Christmas without them. I can only assume that Pfeffernuesse had not become a part of the cultural tradition in South Germany at the time that their ancestors left there. Perhaps I will try again, asking for Paepanaet, this time. Maybe they know them under that name, but I somehow doubt it. A useful source of information might be the newspaper "Die Bootschaft", which is aimed at Mennonites and Amish. I don't know if this paper reaches Canada or not but I would be happy to provide you with the address. Tom\ From: Eldo Neufeld Subject: LL-L Festivals Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Päpanät" (Ger: Pfeffernüsse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and "Päpanät?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Päpanät (after baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. Eldo Neufeld 4040 Blenheim St. Vancouver, BC V6L 2Y9 Tel: (604) 738-4378 e-mail: greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] > From: Eldo Neufeld > Subject: LL-L Festivals > > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in > Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "Päpanät" > (Ger: > Pfeffernüsse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "Päpanät?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. Päpanät > (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. > > Eldo Neufeld > Dear Eldo, In the coast area of West Flanders the feest of "Sinte Moarten" is also well known. Children then go through the villages with a carved sugar beet and a light within. Sinte maorten is also the man who brings a lot of presents (like "Sinterklaas"). Among those gifts there was alwaeys some food (especially in times when there was a lot of poverty)One of the items was a "peperkoek"(E: gingerbread) Peperkoek meaning literally spiced cake. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 18:31:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:31:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: Over: Vlaams en zo, termen Matthieu van Woerkom pleit voor een aanvullend stuk over naamgeving; altijd heel nuttig voor informatie en -met name- voor gedachtenaanscherping. Bij al deze deskundigheid wil ik graag een kleine gedachte kwijt. Marco Evenhuis gebruikt de term "Friso-Frankisch" en hier twijfel ik bij het gebruik van "Friso". Bij deze discussies gaan de situaties van vroeger en heden steeds rakelings langs elkaar heen; en ik ben niet gelukkig met het gebruik van "Friso". Ter opfrissing van ons geheugen: een romeins geschiedschrijver gebruikt de term "Fries" omdat bij de kust een volk woonde dat de haren gekruld droeg [dus dit woord zit ook in 'friseur']. Heel veel later zeiden mensen ergens anders: deze Friezen zijn wij en wij wonen in Friesland. [En heel veel 'specialiteiten' in de historische taalkunde van het Fries zouden minder speciaal zijn wanneer met het Fries gewoon tot het Noord-Germaans zou rekenen]. Zou met het woord Friso- hier niet gebruiken, dan volgt: hoe noem je het dan? Vr. gr. Theo Homan ===== Theo Homan - Verkopende Teksten 050 571 81 38 freelance copywriting direct marketing ideeen & concepten folders, catalogi, brochures, print ads verkopende brieven www.theohoman.8m.com ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 18:45:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:45:14 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.09.26 (08) [E] >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Language changes > >Lowlanders, > >It seems to me that there is a trend in English, at least in American >English varieties, toward avoiding the words "father" and "mother" and to >use in their places "mom" and "dad", also more and more often "mom and dad" >in place of "parents." > >This makes me want to ask if you have noticed similar trends in other >varieties of English and in other Lowlands languages (e.g., "mother" ~> >"mum", "father" ~> "dad" in other forms of English, and/or _mither_ ~> >_mum_, _faither_ ~> _dad_ in Scots). Outside the Lowlands area but within >the Germanic group, I noticed that in Modern Icelandic _mamma_ and _pabbi_ >are often used where I would expect _mó°©²_ 'mother' and _fað©²Y 'father' >respectively, similarly _mame_ and _tate_ in place of (rather serious and >distant) _muter_ 'mother' and _foter_ 'father' respectively in Yiddish, and, >back in the Lowlands fold, oftentimes _ma_ and _pa_ where I would expect >_vader_ and _moer_ respectively in Afrikaans. > >I wonder if under similar circumstances the old words for (i.e., the >cognates of) 'mother' and 'father' (Old Frisian _moder_ and _fader_) >eventually came to be replaced by _mem_ and _heit_ in Westerlauwer ("West") >Frisian (similarly in other Frisian varieties?). > >I feel that in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Moder_ ['mO.Ud3] ~ _Mudder_ >['mUd3] ~ [mUr3] 'mother' and _Vadder_ ['fad3] ~ ['far3] 'father' still have >very strong positions, also as terms of address, and that _Mamma_ ['ma.ma] >'mom' and _Pappa_ ['papa] ~ ['paba] 'dad' are not all that often heard, at >least not in traditional speaker circles, may well have rubbed off from >German, where they are still mostly used as terms of address/endearment and >in talking with children or among ones own relatives. > >In Missingsch (i.e., German on Lowlands Saxon substrate) many people, >especially males, refer to and in some families even address their fathers >by means of _AldäY (= Standard German _Alter_ 'old guy'), thus something >like '(my) old man'. Some people, again mostly males, also use it to >address friends (e.g., _Na, Aldä¿Y 'What's up, dude?'), thus, similar to >_MackäY (= LS _Macker_). I have also heard it used to denote 'husband' >(e.g., _Oh ha, oh ha! Wenn das ihr Aldä ²auskricht!_ 'Boy, oh boy! Wait till >her hubby finds out!'), similarly _Alde_ for 'wife', sometimes '(steady) >girlfriend'. Outside of that, _AldäY and _Alde_, and also _Macker_, are >likely to sound derogatory or hostile (_Kuck ma die Alde da!_ 'Look at that >chick over there!', _Oi, Aldä¡ Was kucksu uns so bescheuä´ an?_ 'Hey, dude! >What do you think you are look at (= at us)?', _Eh, komm ma mit raus, Mack ä¡ >Denn gieps Schl䧥._ 'Eh, come on outside, dude! Then I'll beat you up.'). >(These examples are in Hamburg Missingsch.) > >Any responses, information, corrections or additions would be appreciated. > >Regards, >Reinhard/Ron Moin Ron ! In our Eastern Friesland Platt we have several words to adress parents. >mauder< and >fo´der< have the parallel words >mo´r< and >fo´r<. In a more familiar context we use >ma^m< and >pa^<. The general term is >ollen< (parents) or >folk<. The last sometimes is used for the further family or kinship, too. For father sometimes the term >oel< is used (ex.: mi:n oel is up tuer = my father isn't at home / is walking around / is out for a beer etc.). An old term for father is >ba"ep< or >baeaep< (~ae~ = ae-ligature) but I cannot remember to have heard it any more since more than twenty years and only a few speakers used it then. The use of >ma^m< and >pa^< adressing ones parents is restricted to the families and used to talk about them just with some very close friends. Outside these contextes only the other words are in use with the exception of >oel<. Kumpelment Holger ---------- From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (02) [E] >But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told us >that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, I >haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). That certainly >explains what my three cats keep trying to tell me!! > >Cheers, >Gabriele Kahn > >Gabriele wrote: > >> But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told >us >> that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, >I >> haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). > >Wolof _mew_ 'milk' > >('Cat' is _moos_.) > >Cheers! >Reinhard/Ron Hello Ron ! Is this Wolof word >mew< for milk an English loan (the ~w~ being a substitute for the dark ~l~ resp. the ~lk~) ? Regards Holger ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] cat names... and bön Hi, Cat names. We are owned by a cat too here in our house. Cats have a lot of bad names. In Dutch kat, in Dalland dialect katte. They have bad names like Dakhaas , roof hare, riooltijger , gutter tiger, let me think.. well it depends , if you are a bird keeper, you got many more names, if you are a cat owner you call the cat poes. What ever you call them they listen very well, but they don't obey. About bön there is a word in dutch ..a part of a fishing boat is called bun, or in dialect bön , the part on the bottom of the ship where you keep live fish, it has holes, so that the water comes in it's a compartment in the middle of the boat. Visbön, or visbun. That has probably connections with the word bodem than? Bottom, german boden? Moi! Wim. [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Theo Homan Subject: Kakatu, etc.; Loans in Austral. Aborig. ll Several times now there have been some talk about possible loans [from Dutch] in aborig. ll of Australia. I remember that Austral. scholars doing a lot of work in North Australia were surprised to find Dutch loanwords in aborig. ll. Their conclusion: natives of the Indonesian archipel always used to visit North Australia by boat. My note: Long ago I made the conclusion that water never is a borderline for language- / geolect-influence; but mountain-ridges/chains are. Source: The Aboriginal Australian in North Eastern Arnhem Land Author: Don Williams Publisher: The Curriculum Development Centre, Canberra, Australia [Please, no misunderstanding: I have to brush up my 'North Eastern Arnhem Aboriginialian' because I never met such a native in pub or supermarket in my rural villagetown.] vr.gr. Theo Homan ================================= REFERRING TO: From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: Kakatoe-Kakadu Hi Ron-of Many-Languages Heartened by the latest exchanges about Wolof, I dare to ask again a question that may have got lost in the latest week or so's mail: According to my Oxford Etymological the word _cockatoo_ comes from Malay _kakatua_ (mening "big parrot"), the English rendering possibly influenced by another bird's name, the cock. In Danish the word is _kakadu_, contaminated by another bird, the dove, in Danish "due". It is derived from Dutch _kaketoe_, the books say. Is there any possible connection to the Australian _Kakadu_, a name for both a (recently deceased) language, a tribe/people/nation and a National Park where the bird in question lives?(also endangered, I believe). It is also spelled Gagadju and Gagudju and lies in the Northern Territory where I think Dutchmen came by in the 16th century, leaving place names like Arnhem Land behind. Or is Danish Kakadu and Australian Kakadu just a coincidence, like the Dyirbal (another recently deceased Australian lg) word for "dog" is said to be - "dog"! Ole Stig Andersen ===== Theo Homan - Verkopende Teksten 050 571 81 38 freelance copywriting direct marketing ideeen & concepten folders, catalogi, brochures, print ads verkopende brieven www.theohoman.8m.com ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Lexicon Beste liëglanners, Let's cast a ray of light on this "beun(haas)" matter...this is what Jan de Vries thinks about it : > BEUN znw. v. 'losse planken boven de vloer', ook "viskaar" (met de bijvorm 'bun'), bij Kiliaen : > "boene", "buene" 'tabulata' en "bonne", "bunne" 'coassatio, tabulatum et fori navium', vgl; mnd. > "bone, böne" m.v. 'planken stelling, zoldering, zolder, verdieping', "bune" v. 'staketsel aan een > oever' (vgl. in duitse zeemanstaal "bünn" 'beun in een schip'; ook oostfri. "bünne"), mnd. bune, mhd. > büne, bün (nhd. bühne) 'estrade, zoldering'. Men zal wel van 'dunne plank, sliet' moeten uitgaan, vgl. > het woord "buna" 'droge stengel' in de plantnaam zw. "gråböna", de. dial. "graabone" (AEW 63 onder > búa 2). Daarnaast staan nnoorw. "bunke", nde. "bynke" 'bijvoet' en nzw. dial. "bunke" 'rietsoort'. > Verder zijn te vergelijken on. "buna" als bijnaam voorkomend = nijsl. "buna" 'bot van een os', > nnoorw. "buna" 'been, pijp', ozw. "buulogger" 'voorbout van een slachtdier', nde. "bonneben" > 'scheenbeen van een slachtdier'. Deze woorden zijn moeilijk te verklaren, maar zullen wel met de > groep van "bonk" samenhangen. > FW 57 noemt nog als zwakke mogelijkheden verbinding met de wt. *bhen 'slaan', waarvoor zie : > "baan" en nog zwakker verbinding met het woord "ben" in de zin van vlechtwerk. > BEUNHAAS znw. m. sedert de 17de eeuw < nd. bön(e)hase, dat eig. 'zolderhaas' betekent, een > spotnaam voor 'kat', dan 'arbeider die in het geheim op zolder werkt, een knoeier in zijn vak' : in > Salzburg heet de niet bij een gilde aangesloten timmerman "Dachhase" (eig. 'kat') en "Zaunhase" (eig. > 'egel') elders "balkhase" (westf. oostfri.), vgl. gron. "balkhoas", fri. "bolkhazze". In de 14de eeuw is > het woord in Duitsland een PN, sedert 1568 komt het voor in de betekenis van 'buiten het gilde > werkende kleermaker'' (vgl. hd. "böhnhase"). Duden's Herkunftswörterbuch says this : > BÜHNE w: Die Herkunft von mhd. büne "Bretterbühne, Zimmerdecke", mnd. böne "bretterne > Erhöhung, Empore, Zimmerdecke", niederl. beun "bretterne Erhöhung, Bretterdiele, Steg; Decke" ist > nicht sicher geklärt. Vielleicht hängt das auf das dt. und niederl. Sprachgebiet beschränkte Wort mit > der Sippe von ? Boden zusammen. Das aus 'Schaubühne' verkürzte Wort 'Bühne' wird im 18. Jh. auf > das Podium des Schauspielers eingeschränkt und alsbald auch übertragen für "Theater" gebraucht. As I was quoting them, I don't want to translate their words. Slightly off the record, the bottom of an object happens to be called "boeëm" in Brabantish, "bodem" (D) ~ "fundus" (Latin) ~ "budhnas" (Old Indian), and the Dutch naval term "bodem" became French "bodine". Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Holger, > Is this Wolof word >mew< for milk an English loan (the ~w~ being a > substitute for the dark ~l~ resp. the ~lk~) ? I hardly think so, considering that traditionally any "Western" influences on the languages of Senegal etc. was French, not English. Luc, Wim, Lowlanders, Most Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects have _Bodden_ ~ _Botten_ ~ _Boddem_ for 'bottom'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 19:11:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:11:34 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.02 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, Since yesterday's administrative message we have been joined by one person from Cary, North Carolina, USA, and one person from Alva, Scotland. Welcome to them! I want to remind everyone that our rules and guidelines must be understood and are posted here: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Our newly unveiled but far from completed series "Lowlands Talk" can be accessed here: http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/. Help would be appreciated. Please also note the disclaimer that basically says that Lowlands-L holds no official views and opinion but has room and appreciation for diversity, also in the series "Lowlands Talk." Please note that it is important to keep apart my two relevant email addresses. If you wish to communicate with me privately, please use my private address: sassisch at yahoo.com. If you wish to communicate with me about administrative matters, such problems with the List or your accounts, please use my administratie address: admin at lowlands-l.net. (It is also safest to send messages regarding "Lowlands Talk" to my *private* address, since they can easily be construed as intended postings.) Submissions for List postings should go to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. Some people are still sending posting submissions to my private or administrative addresses. Please don't, unless you are a LL-L editor and have been specifically instructed to do so for certain technical reasons. Again (important): * private: sassisch at yahoo.com * administrative: admin at lowlands-l.net * LL-L posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org If you pay attention to these distinctions, you do not only make my life easier, but you will avoid situations in which I misconstrue private communication as posting submissions. Your cooperation would be much appreciated, as would be your forbearance and your understanding that the running of Lowlands-L, though facilitated by technological tools, relies mostly on human perception and action, and that mistakes do happen. Thanks, and best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 19:33:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:33:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.06 (01) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (08) [E/LS] Moin, Ron, Wöörböökers, Leeglanners, joo- mien Damper güng blauts opp de anner Sied vonne Elv, jümmer hin un trüch, un Dien Damper wieter, no Omerikoo! Wööer veel tau düsser- un 's Nachts *m* un *n* tau ünnerschieden is heel swoor *s*! Du hesst recht, un Dien Wöörböökers ook: hier waard ook "Böön" (UG) "(Dach-)Boden" (E) "loft" seggt; mann- ick heff 't öber dörtig Joorn ne maarkt! Offschoonst- wi müssen mennigmool hin un trüch snacken, ümm 't tau klooreern. De (LS) "Boon" (ook: "die[!] Grund"), (UG) "(Erd-)Boden", (E) "bottom" wööer noch stuurer; twei Meeinen tendeern tau "Boo-e-m". Is woll 'n figeliinsch' Familie(?): (LS) "Boaum, ook: Boom (sing.)" vs. "Bööem (plur)", (E) "tree" vs "trees",. Wi köemn denn no datt (LS) "booben, booven, baaven, baaben", (UG: "oben"), (E) "above, at the top", un ick füng an, 'n lütt beeten klüftich/"klaukschietert" (bün ick fooken, ick weit!) tau waarn: "no booben", (UG) "nach oben", (E) "to the top", un heff dennen (verkeeihrten!, ass ick nu weit,) "Böö[b{e}]m" weller in 't Speel brocht- mien Lüü woorn unseeker. Nee- heit "Böön"! Deiht mi leeid, Ron, sorry, leeve Wöörböökers, föör dat Unrecht, watt ick Di un jau dittmool dauhn heff *s*! Greutens Fiete. (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." ("Iced Earth") > >> De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat wööer ne opp 'n Böö*n*, mann opp 'n > >> Böö*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "Böö*n in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? > > >Klaar heett dat "Böö*n*, tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel > >snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _Böö*m* heff ik > >bitherto nich maal in Wöörbeukers funnen. Mi dücht dat Woord "Böö*n* keem > vun > >_boden_ > _böden_ af. > > > >Reinhard/Ron > > Mookst mi heel döörnein! > Nee- ick bünn recht seeker, hier, an dennen "beusen", ook "leeigen" *s* > Innen vonne Elv, waard "Böö(be)m" seggt, as (E) "bottom" (I assume, cognate > of [UG] "Boden"). > Wöörböökers! Hah! > Is nu' tau loot, mien Mentors antauraupen. Schull ick opp'n verkeihrten > Damper ween, schall ick mi woll monnen frauh foors melln!Ron wrote: > >Gabriele, come on now! Of course I don't *speak* that many! In my case >it's more a matter of theory, memory, connections and resource availability, >accumulated over more years than I care to think about. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 19:47:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:47:15 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Code switching" 2002.10.06 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Ron wrote: > >Gabriele, come on now! Of course I don't *speak* that many! In my case >it's more a matter of theory, memory, connections and resource availability, >accumulated over more years than I care to think about. Speaking about polyglottism, has anyone else heard of Derrick Herning? He was a schoolteacher in Lerwick when I was at school - now retired - and was once in the Guiness Book of Records for being able to speak the most languages of anyone in Europe. I used to think the name 'Herning' was German - he was a teacher of German, mainly - but he actually comes from Fife. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Code switching John Magnus, I heard of this Derrick Herning and remember that he spoke 22 languages fluently--I don't know which ones--and that he won some sort of polyglott prize. I don't think this was a terribly long time ago. I think the name Herning is rather rare, but I would not be surprised to come across it as supposedly "Dutch," (North) "German" or Danish. Of course, there is a Danish city called Herning. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 19:50:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:50:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.06 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.03 (06) [E] Sandy wrote: >I already suggested the solution to this 'problem', by saying >that we need to build up a critical mass of suitable materials >until the general populace does find itself 'ignited' with an >awareness of this sort of thing. > >Books like Trainspotting and programmes like Chewin' the Fat >are deliberately written in such a way as to be understandable >by the English-speaking populace, and this is why they're widely >popular. If you're promoting Scots as a language then whatever >you produce has a built-in disadvantage because the written >language isn't taught and so can be inaccessible even for many >Scots speakers. This is the big dilemma, isn't it? If you produce Scots which is not easily understood at a casual level by English speakers, then it is dismissed as 'artificial' or such. Even linguists are guilty of a version of this mistake. In English Phonology and Phonological Theory, Roger Lass lists several examples of word forms such as _tap_, _labster_, etc, as examples of vowel changes in 'earlier Scots'. But most of these 'earlier' Scots words are familiar to me in everyday speech. This type of thinking - where 'braid' Scots is regarded as relics of 'earlier' Scots - leaves the way for the words 'Scots' to imply mainly the heavily Anglicised forms found in mostly Glasgow and Edinburgh. In other words, people from areas where Scots is most depleted regard this sort of Scots as 'contemporary' and the other forms as relics. When these forms of Scots (equivalent, I would say, to Ron's descriptions of Missingisch (sp?)) are written, it is rightly pointed out that they are little different from English. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that many of those who are at the forefront of Scots promotion actually seem to be unfamiliar with 'braid' Scots, to the extent that they are dismayed when they encounter it. Colin tells me that the SLRC produced a document which stated that the 'braid' varieties of Scots are comprehensible only to linguistic specialists! > >However, things like Colin's book gradually make better Scots >more accessible, not necessarily immediately to the general >populace but it has a good chance of raising the awareness of >more educated people such as teachers, who might then be better >equipped to point the way for others. This is the sort of thing >that can provide and awareness of Scots as high culture rather >than low. This is true. However, there is the problem - which I keep going on about - that most of the material available to educators is of the 'relexified English' sort, and even those teachers who are favourably disposed towards Scots, not knowing any better, are likely to uncritically use texts like Robertson's book on the Parliament, or Telfer's Bruce and Wallace. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 19:57:47 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:57:47 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.06 (04) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (03) [E] Theo Hofman schreef: > Matthieu van Woerkom pleit voor een aanvullend stuk > over naamgeving; altijd heel nuttig voor informatie en > -met name- voor gedachtenaanscherping. > Bij al deze deskundigheid wil ik graag een kleine > gedachte kwijt. > > Marco Evenhuis gebruikt de term "Friso-Frankisch" en > hier twijfel ik bij het gebruik van "Friso". > Bij deze discussies gaan de situaties van vroeger en > heden steeds rakelings langs elkaar heen; en ik ben > niet gelukkig met het gebruik van "Friso". > > Ter opfrissing van ons geheugen: een romeins > geschiedschrijver gebruikt de term "Fries" omdat bij > de kust een volk woonde dat de haren gekruld droeg > [dus dit woord zit ook in 'friseur']. Heel veel later > zeiden mensen ergens anders: deze Friezen zijn wij en > wij wonen in Friesland. [En heel veel 'specialiteiten' > in de historische taalkunde van het Fries zouden > minder speciaal zijn wanneer met het Fries gewoon tot > het Noord-Germaans zou rekenen]. > > Zou met het woord Friso- hier niet gebruiken, dan > volgt: hoe noem je het dan? Hoewel ik me wel iets kan voorstellen bij de bedenkingen die Theo hierboven uit ten aanzien van terminologie als 'Friso--Frankisch', geloof ik niet dat het raadzaam is om op de website van deze mailing list andere, zelf-bedachte termen te gaan gebruiken voor zaken waar al vanoudsher bepaalde, algemeen gangbare benamingen voor gebruikt worden. Ook al is zo'n benaming wellicht wat ongelukkig. In de Nederlandse taalkunde (en op veel andere terreinen) zijn de termen Fries, Saksisch en Frankisch (en combinaties daarvan) nu eenmaal gemeengoed. Het zijn bovendien bij- zonder bruikbare termen om het karakter van een bepaalde taalvariant zeer grof weer te geven. Groeten, Marco ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.03 (05) [D] > From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (10) [D/E] > >> From: Marco Evenhuis evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl >> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (06) [E] > Luc Vanbrabant: >> >>> Inderdaad, het chronologisch woordenboek geeft ons een interessante >>> analyse. Maar er worden daaruit hooguit 90 woorden vermeld. >>> Toen ik met mijn fluo-stift een etymologisch woordenboek >>> doorbladerde, >>> vond ik er toch een 400-tal. >>> Daarbij moet je ook naar de zinsconstructies zelf kijken Frans is zo >>> anders dan de andere Romaanse talen, precies door die Frankische >>> invloed. Een Franse en een Latijnse zin tonen veel minder >>> overeenkomst >>> dan een Franse en een Vlaamse zin. > > [Marco Evenhuis]: >> Zou dat laatste niet vooral veroorzaakt >> worden door de Franse invloed op het >> Vlaams in plaats van een Germaans- >> Frankisch substraat in het Frans? Ik be- >> doel, wanneer ik naar mijn eigen Zeeuws >> kijk, daar bestaan lijsten van met honder- >> den Zeeuwse woorden van Franse kom- >> af. Zou het aantal Franse leenwoorden >> naar het zuiden toe geen veelvoud zijn >> van wat er hier, waar het Frans nooit een >> rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld, >> al niet te vinden is? > > Beste Marco, > > Ik onderschrijf ten volle jouw suggestie dat de overeenkomst tussen > Vlaams en Frans wel eens voor een aardig deel zou kunnen zijn ontstaan > door invloed van Frans op het Vlaams. Maar de opmerking dat Frans hier > "nooit een rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld" lijkt me wat kort > door de bocht. Ten eerste natuurlijk op bestuurlijk niveau wel, ten > tweede via handel ook wel, en ten derde zijn er in Zeeland dacht ik > behoorlijk wat Hugenoten neergestreken. > > Groeten, > Floor van Lamoen. > Beste mensen, Toch niet hoor. Ik denk dat u even aan andere zaken denkt, dan diegene waar ik over aan het schrijven was. Ik blijf toch bij mij beweringen van hierboven en wel om verschillende redenen: 1/ Geschiedkundig Het Franse koningshuis is gesticht door de Diets sprekende Franken. Karel de Grote sprak een Oud-Brabants dialect en heeft in zijn rijk alle 'oude liederen' die in de volkstaal bestonden, laten noteren.Op dat moment bestond het Frans nog niet .Het oudste geschreven Frans, "l' histoire de Ste.-Eulalie" dateert van de 11de eeuw. Het is zijn zoon Lodewijk de Vrome die dat alles vernietigd heeft en het voor ons moeilijk gemaakt heeft om de oorsprong van veel Franse verhalen terug te vinden Want voor hem moest aankomende en groeiende Frans het anker worden van zijn monarchie. Als men de vroegste verhalen leest, herkent men daar direct de Germaanse oorsprong in . Alle namen zijn meestal Diets. Ik denk hierbij zeker aan "La chanson de Roland" dat duidelijk op Frankisch-Vlaamse leest geschoeid is. De Fransen hebben de Dietse oorsprong in de loop van de geschiedenis altijd maar geminimaliseerd. En de Nederlandstaligen zijn hen daarin teveel gevolgd, een paar uitzonderingen niet te na gesproken. 2/Taalkundig Natuurlijk weet ik wel dat de Franse taal een enorme invloed gehad heeft op het (West)Vlaams of het Zeeuws. Dit gebeurde echter in een tijdperk dat Vlaams geen cultuurtaal meer was, een heel stuk later dan de periode waarover ik sprak. Ik had het hier over de geboorte van het Frans en de invloed van de Frankische taal bij dit gebeuren.Het Frans is ontstaan in een Germaanse cultuur waar het Latijn een steeds grotere rol toebedeeld kreeg, en niet omgekeerd. Bij het ontstaan van een woord is het toch heel duidelijk uit welke andere taal dat eventueel komt. Het is vooral ook duidelijk dat dat omgekeerd niet het geval is.Dat Frankisch substraat is dus zeker reëel. Ik meen mij ook te herinneren dat men in het historisch woordenboek aanhaalt dat daarover zeker nog heel veel te onderzoeken valt. Als voorsmaak misschien enkele woorden uit het Franse etymologische woordenboek. Voorbeelden bij de letter "a". abandon - *band accabler - chable / cable(D V) accise - accijs (accijns)(D V) accore - schore / schor(D V) acre - acre(E V) adouber - dubban (Frankisch) affaler - afhalen (D V) agace - agaza(Germaans) agrafer - krap aigrefin- -> esclevis->skelvis(V) ale - ale (V) alérion - adalaro (Frankisch) adelare(V) allemand - allamann (G) alleman' (V) alleu - *al-ôd(Frankisch) algoed (V) allô - hallo, hello (E) amarrer - maren (D) ambassade - andbahti(Gotisch) ambacht (V) anspect - handspecke (V) arlequin - hellequin - helleke(kleine duivel ?) arquebuse - hakenbussche (G V) asple - haspel (G V) astic - stikkân (Frankisch) stick(E) asticoter - steken (D V) atlas (het boek) naam gegeven door Mercator attacher - stake (V) aubaine - aliban (Frankisch) van een andere ban (groep) aubette - *huba(Frankisch) aubin - hobby (E) aumusse - mutse (G V) aune - elle (V) aurique - orig (D V) aurochs - oeros (G V) avachir - *vaikjan(Frankisch) weken (D V) ... En ik vergeet er waarschijnlijk nog. Wat namen de Fransen van de Franken over? -persoonsnamen namen i.v.m. ... -landbouw en veeteelt -huisconstructies -planten-en dierenwereld -administratie van leger en rechtswezen -gevoelsleven... Veel plaatsen hebben Germaanse naamtypes: -ingum -ingas inga heima -baki -tuna (ingatuna) De zinsconstructies: -adjectief voor substantief Tot halverwege Frankrijk hoor en lees je- "blanc fer - neufchateau -grande maison..." -Germaanse naam +court of +ville (voorbij Geneve wordt dat omgekeerd) -Gebruik van het onderwerp bij een persoonsvorm: je pense (tu... - il - elle - nous - vous - ils - elles) -De woordvolgorde in Franse zinnen lijkt sterker op de woordvolgorde in Germaanse zinnen dan in die van andere Romaanse talen. Een interessant boekje daarover heet: De taalgrens (Danny Lamarcq en Marc Rogge - Davidsfonds Leuven 1996). Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 20:09:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:09:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Mennonites" 2002.10.06 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: erek gass Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.02 (02) [E] Like Thomas, I live in South Central PA (York County), and grew up in Northern Montgomery County (Eastern PA, at the time a "Pennsylvania Dutch" area). Thomas notes that our PA Mennonites are descendants of settlers invited (by William Penn) from their homes in Alsace, Switzerland, and Swabia. A goodly number also came from France and French (rather than German) cantons in the Helvetic Confederation. In this they don't differ very much from the "Church people" (that is, Lutherans and Reformests). The language they use amongst themselves is Pennsylvania Dutch (more correctly, "Deitsch", the standard High German "eu" following the Pfalz dialect's usage of "ei" instead). It is important, perhaps, to note that Deitsch is not a Lowlands dialect, but rather is a type of High German. Although some Allemanisch words are included in Deitsch, this is a dialect much different than the Low Saxon I see being discussed in the group. It is possibly worth mentioning that the three of the four general categories of Anabaptists live in PA: the Mennonites, the Amish, and the Brethren (no Hutterites here). These are further divided into many subsets. Most Brethren differ little these days from "Church" people, rarely speaking Deitsch anymore, and dressing in traditional sectarian clothing only for special occasions (when I attend a funeral or viewing, it's likely the only time I see some of my Brethren acquaintances in their traditional clothing). The Amish really are Mennonites, though they are usually spoken of as a separate group (or, more correctly, groups). Most non-Amish Mennonites have adopted modern dress, education, and lifestyle. In the easern part of the state, the church in my town was one of the first to break away from "being different" and as I grew up the Mennonite Church really didn't seem much different than my own (except for the adult baptism, of course). They drove cars, they didn't paint the chrome black or take any of the other measures so often mentioned in the press or in popular books about them. Farther west, in Lancaster County, the non-Amish Mennonites who remain traditional can be identified on the roads by their black buggies (the Amish buggies are grey). ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 21:02:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:02:12 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.06 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Language survival" > From: John M. Tait > Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.03 (06) [E] > > This is true. However, there is the problem - which I keep going > on about - > that most of the material available to educators is of the 'relexified > English' sort, and even those teachers who are favourably disposed towards > Scots, not knowing any better, are likely to uncritically use texts like > Robertson's book on the Parliament, or Telfer's Bruce and Wallace. John, you see everything in black! Seven years ago, I wouldn't have known any better than to use these books uncritically, either - but now I do know better. Teachers favourably disposed towards Scots are also likely to use Lorimer and Colin's book, and perhaps trawl through ScotsteXt in search of further texts. Ultimately it's a question of making enough good text and instruction available for people to realise what's wrong with some of them (such as Robertson's). Again, it comes back to the question of a critical mass being available, and I think we're making progress there. No doubt these problems you keep going over are interesting discussion points, but you can't _solve_ problems without some sort of optimism to the effect that solutions can be found. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 21:04:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:04:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.06 (07) [D/F] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (03) [E] > Marco Evenhuis gebruikt de term "Friso-Frankisch" en > hier twijfel ik bij het gebruik van "Friso". > Bij deze discussies gaan de situaties van vroeger en > heden steeds rakelings langs elkaar heen; en ik ben > niet gelukkig met het gebruik van "Friso". > > Ter opfrissing van ons geheugen: een romeins > geschiedschrijver gebruikt de term "Fries" omdat bij > de kust een volk woonde dat de haren gekruld droeg > [dus dit woord zit ook in 'friseur'] Dit is net alheel krekt sa't dat hjir sein wurdt! De Friezen neamden harsels ek sa, dus de Romeinen hawwe de besteande namme oernommen, net sels ien betocht op grûn fan in uterlik skaaimerk. En sels dat "kroljende hier" is net wis; better net te witten is noch altyd net rjocht dúdlik wêr't ús namme weikomt... . Heel veel later > zeiden mensen ergens anders: deze Friezen zijn wij en > wij wonen in Friesland. [En heel veel 'specialiteiten' > in de historische taalkunde van het Fries zouden > minder speciaal zijn wanneer met het Fries gewoon tot > het Noord-Germaans zou rekenen]. Soeste dizze opmerking faaks mear útwurkje kinne? It Frysk foldocht oan alle skaaimerken fan it Westgermaansk dy't tradisjoneel brûkt wurde. Boppedat foldocht it net oan skaaimerken fan it Noardgermaansk. De brekkingsferskynsels komme yndie yn guon Skandinaafske talen ek foar, mar bygelyks ek yn it Ingelsk (al binne dat wer wat oare ferskynsels, mar algemien fonetysk net..) Dat, wat bedoelst hjir mei? > Vr. gr. Theo Homan Freonlike groetnisse Henno Brandsma ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 17:06:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:06:11 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.07 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.04 (01) [D] > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Vlaams enz. > > Hoi Marco, > > Misschien een idee dat je een aanvullend stuk over 'naamgeving' of iets > dergelijks schrijft (een bewerking van wat je hieronder hebt > geschreven), > dan > kunnen we dat toevoegen aan de pagina over Vlaams. Ron's stuk over > Nedersaksisch heeft ook een paragraaf over naamgeving, dus misschien > in die > trant... > > Wellicht kun je wat kortsluiten met de auteur, Luc Vanbrabant? Hallo, jullie beiden. Moet ik wat kortsluiten? Dan ga je dat toch even moeten uitleggen wat je daar precies mee bedoelt hoor. > Aanhalen Marco Evenhuis : > >> Hoi, >> >>> Ik ook! Vrij lastig dat hij enerzijds taalkundig een overeenkomst met >> Zeeuws >>> beschijft, Die is er toch!! En dat ik er niet veel over uitweid is, omdat ik daar geen nonsens wil verkopen.Ik ken de taalsituatie in Nederland minder dan iemand uit Nederland zelf. Wie die daar een deftige tekst tussen wil plaatsen over het Zeeuws moet het voor mij niet laten. Dat kan mij alleen maar blij maken. >>> maar politiek ??? taalkundig, cultureel en politiek... >>> gezien beschouwd hij het algemene Belgische >> Nederlands >>> óók als Vlaams... Dat is in de meeste teksten die in België verschijnen ook zo. Ik denk dat ik in enkele korte zinsconstructies heb proberen weer te geven wat de moeilijkheid is met die verschillende naamgevingen. We moeten hier ook oppassen om niet te veel in haarklieverij te vervallen . Het moet interessant en leuk lezen blijven voor anderen buiten dit taalgebied ook.Het verschil tussen Vlaams en Vlaams zit wel degelijk in de tekst verborgen, zij het kort. >> Precies. En de aloude aaneensmeding van Oost- en West-Vlaams is >> taalkundig >> totale onzin. Dat kan toch niet zo'n onzin zijn als je zelf zegt dat het een "aloude" aaneensmeding is. Moeten we er ook niet van uitgaan dat verstaanbaarheid hier de belangrijkste norm hoort te zijn? Ik kan mij in mijn West-Vlaams perfect verstaanbaar maken in Oost-Vlaanderen, zonder dat daar een vertaling voor hoeft te zijn.In een Gents café praat ik West-Vlaams zonder problemen. Omgekeerd is dat ook zo voor de Oost-Vlaamse variant, want meer durf ik het echt niet te noemen, ondanks de verschillen die de taalkundigen er op willen plakken. Met Brabants gaat dit al minder, en met Limburgs zit ik er nog een stap verder van af. >> Zelfs de redacteuren van het Woordenboek van de Vlaamse >> Dialecten geven in inleidingen op hun werk grif toe dat taalkundige >> overeenkomsten binnen hun werkgebied (Frans-, West-, Zeeuws- en >> Oost-Vlaanderen) minder belangrijk zijn dan het feit dat al deze >> gebieden >> tesamen ooit het Nederlandstalige deel van het graafschap Vlaanderen >> vormden. >> West-Vlaanderen, Frans-Vlaanderen en Zeeland zijn taalkundig gezien >> nog >> nauwer verwant dan de meeste Nedersaksische dialecten. Het Oost-Vlaams >> verschilt méér van het zuid-Brabants dan het Noord-Brabants dat doet, >> maar >> de verschillen met Zeeuws/West-vlaams zijn nog veel groter. Maar alles blijft heel duidelijk herkenbaar en onderling verstaanbaar. >> Het zal nog wel wat kunst- en vliegwerk vergen om dat op de site tot >> ieders >> tevredenheid recht te breien. De hamvraag luidt uiteraard: van welke >> bron of >> welke auteur ga je uit en hoeveel belang hecht je aan persoonlijke >> opvattingen? Inderdaad! Ik heb geprobeerd om de termen zo neutraal als mogelijk te houden om zo weinig mogelijk subjectief te worden.De talen werden ingedeeld volgens hun geografische situatie. Dat is één van de criteria die minst weerstand zal bieden. >>>> Ook omdat het hele Zeeuws/West-Vlaamse-Vlaamse verhaal nu al voor >> een >>>> aantal >>>> vervelende inconsistenties op de site heeft gezorgd. Als de verschillende betekenissen naast elkaar opgesomd worden(wat ook kort gebeurt) is er echt niet zo'n probleem voor iemand die heel eventjes zijn best wil doen. >>> Inderdaad, want moet Vlaams nu ook als aparte taal genoemd worden? >> Terwijl >>> Vlaams (als in: Oost-Vlaams) wordt gezien als een belangrijke >> bouwsteen >> van de >>> Nederlandse standaardtaal. Ik zou eerder stellen: Als een belangrijke bouwsteen bij het ontstaan van het Nederlands. Hoeveel Noord-Nederlanders begrijpen die varianten van het Zuid-Nederlands? Op teevee horen er telkens ondertitels bij.Als we Oost- of West-Vlaams durven gebruiken als een onderdeel van het AN, dan zou het er nogal wat gaan stuiven bij al die taalkundigen denk ik. >> Nog even in het kort mijn idee: West-Vlaams, Frans-Vlaams, West- en >> Midden-Zeeuws-Vlaams en Zeeuws vormen samen de Friso-Frankische Goed om dat zo te noemen. Ik houd wel van dat Friese element.Ik heb daarover mijn eigen ideeën, maar daar schrijf ik later nog wel een stukje over. >> zuidwestgroep van de Nederlandse taalvarianten. Oost-Vlaams is een >> Frankisch >> overgangsgebied tussen West-Vlaams/Zeeuws en Brabants, maar sluit >> zuiver >> taalkundig gezien meer bij het (eveneens Frankische) Brabants dan bij >> het >> West-Vlaams/Zeeuws aan. >> Aardig ijkpunt: Zeeuwen en West-Vlamingen doen aan code-switching >> wanneer >> zij geconfronteerd worden met een spreker van het Standaardnederlands >> (ze >> schakelen dus tussen twee min of meer 'zuivere' taalvarianten). >> Oost-Vlamingen passen hun taal, net als Brabanders, in stapjes aan aan >> de >> gesprekspartner. Maw, iemand kan wel een béétje of een beetje veel >> Oost-Vlaams of Brabants praten (en het gewoon Oost-Vlaams of Brabants >> noemen >> bovendien), maar met Zeeuws en West-Vlaams is dat onmogelijk. Ik praat met mijn Brusselse vrienden Nederlands maar ook een soort tussentaal die zij zeker appreciëren en begrijpen . En daar zitten een paar rasechte ketjes bij. >> Je spreekt >> óf >> Zeeuws óf AN. Er is geen tussenweg. Dat is toch een kwestie van even je best willen doen. Niet iedereen is toch zo ongevoelig voor taal dat hij /zij niet met één van onze varianten mee onderweg kan gaan. Al die Noord-Duitse talen waren voor mij ook nieuw, maar dat zijn ze na een klein beetje tijd allang niet meer. Ook het "Scots" is mij al bekender dan enkele weken geleden.Even wennen en Antwerps lukt wel. Limburgs moet voor mij ook kunnen met wat inspanning, enz... >> Dat er mensen zijn, die zich in het >> AN >> niet altijd evengoed weten te redden, is een heel andere kwestie. >> >> Probleem blijft natuurlijk dat het begrip Vlaams zowel wordt gebruikt >> voor >> de Zuid-Nederlandse standaardtaal als (door de sprekers) het Oost- én >> het >> West-Vlaams. Sprekers maken dus voor wat betreft de benaming van hun >> taal >> geen onderscheid tussen Oost en West, alhoewel de jongere generaties >> West-Vlamingen steeds vaker een voorkeur voor 'West-Vlaams' boven >> 'Vlaams' >> laten zien. Die willen gewoon wat nauwkeuriger zijn.Het West-Vlaams is ook conservatief en evolueert niet zo vlug naar het algemeen Nederlands als de andere regionale talen.Vandaar dat misschien wat aparte gevoel en 'statement'. >> In Oost-Vlaanderen weet ik niet precies hoe dat laatste met >> de >> jongste generaties precies zit. >> >> Afijn, we komen er wel uit. Groeten, >> >> Marco Groetjes, Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 17:08:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:08:30 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.07 (02) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (08) [E/LS] >Ron schreef: .... Mi dí±Zí¸´, dat Woord "Bíºsí¾¢ keem >vun >> _boden_ > _bí¹'íµ®_ af. > >That's funny, because they call the attic "Bí±¢í¾¥" in the German Southwest >(Schwaben), and I had never heard of a similar expression. In High German, >"Bí±¢í¾¥" means "stage", and I was very confused when I moved to Ulm 16 years >ago to hear prospective landlords tell me the apartment came with a stage. > >Regards, >Gabriele Kahn > >Leeive Ron, >Du hesst schreeven > >>> De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat wíºsíµ² ne opp 'n Bíºsíº®*, mann opp 'n >>> Bíºsíº­*. Or gifft ook 'n "Bíºsíº® in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? > >>Klaar heett dat "Bíºsíº®*, tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel >>snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _Bíºsíº­* heff ik >>bitherto nich maal in Wíº>í²¢eukers funnen. Mi dí±Zí¸´ dat Woord "Bíºsíº®* keem >vun >>_boden_ > _bí¹'íµ®_ af. >> >>Reinhard/Ron > >Mookst mi heel díº>í²®ein! >Nee- ick bí±ºí¾ recht seeker, hier, an dennen "beusen", ook "leeigen" *s* >Innen vonne Elv, waard "Bíºsí¸¢e)m" seggt, as (E) "bottom" (I assume, cognate >of [UG] "Boden"). >> Fiete: > >> De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat wíºsíµ² ne opp 'n Bíºsíº®*, mann opp >'n >> Bíºsíº­*. Or gifft ook 'n "Bíºsí¾¢ in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? > >> Ron: > >> Klaar heett dat "Bíºsí¾¢, tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar >heel >> snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _Bíºsí½Y heff >ik >> bitherto nich maal in Wíº>í²¢í¹®íµ² funnen. Mi dí±Zí¸´, dat Woord "Bíºsí¾¢ >keem > > vun >> _boden_ > _bí¹'íµ®_ af. > >Leve Ron, > >Ik glíº>í¶ wat "bíºsí¾¢ í¹²í¼¥rhaftiger is as "boden" > "bí¹'íµ®" mid /d/- >utfall. Vergliik mhd. / mnd. sluten. Verwandschup mid gift dat wol, avers gaait dat veel >wider trí±zí¼ denk ik, vergliik ags. "schipsbodden". "Bíºsí¾¢ is >also in de like familie, avers nich dat like woord as "bodden". In de >Baverdí²³í´³ch mundaarden segt man to`n bispeel in`t Schw䢩sch "Bí±¢í¾¥" >(or /bi:n(e)/) un heet ook "bíºsí¾¢. >Dat etymoloogsche wíº>í²¢ook vun Kluge snakt daar ook vun, wat germ. >*í² *bhu(dh)niá µpkeem. >Versipt is wol ook Awestisch buna "bodden", un Ooldirisch bun "dat >í±ºí¾¥re en". > >Gríº'íµ®s, > >Dan Hello Fiete, Ron and all ! As I mentioned already, in Eastern Friesland Low Saxon we have >bo"o"em< as one possible plural for >bo:m< (tree) besides >bo:men<. But also we have >bo:m< meaning >bottom, ground, base<. >bo"o"n< is >attic, loft etc.< but >stage< would be >bu"u"en< as a German loan or mainly used >spo"o"lde^l<. (>de^l< is >floor; plank<) By the way: >bo"o"ners< are a special kind of broom made of heather used for cleaning kettles or pots. At last let me add a little correction to my last posting about cat's names in EFLS: If we call a cat we'd use >pu:s< but if this word replaces the word >cat< it will be >pu^s< (mi:n dochter ho"o"r dreiklo"o"ert pu^s lieght net akro´t te:gen mi: up 't so:fa un slo"pt as ik dit sghri:f). Kumpelment Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 17:56:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:56:40 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (05) [E] Thank you for the information. I had forgotten about the paper lanterns we carried with lit candles in them. Suennermarten is clearly the same holdiday that we had. I asume that it must be limited to the north of Germany because none of the Germans I have met here (allmost all from south Germany) had ever heard of it. If you can dig up the song, I would greatly appreciate it. The fire festival was as you described it. Only a few couples jumped over the fire and that only when the fire had burned quite low. By the way, does Nikolaus still have his place on December 6th or has he been displaced by the American Santa Claus by now? Tom ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Festivities Tom, I think that several of these holidays and customs have merged: Martinmas, Halloween and the various New Year's customs, most of which obviously have pre-Christians roots. In Protestant communities of Northern Germany there are permutations of Martinmas. I'm not so sure if this is done a lot now, but when I was a child we would walk around with foldable paper laterns (usually in different shapes and colors, held with a stick with a wire hook or loop) and sing certain latern songs, usually of the endless type (of which I might share a couple if you are interested). This was not confined to Martinmas, of which we knew nothing, but could be done pretty much anytime just after dusk in the fall. Much of what children in North America do on Halloween, we used to do on New Years Eve. In other words, there is a merging of the two originally "pagan" festivals Halloween and "winter cleansing" (cleaning houses of evil spirits before the return of the sun, as is still done in archaic shamanist mummenschanz rituals in Alemannic areas, especially in Switzerland, reflected also in the Scandinavian Christmas dance through all the rooms of the house). On New Year's Eve, we children would go from door to door in fancy costumes, often with masks, pretending to be something like beggar pilgrims, singing songs and expecting to get rewarded with candy, cookies and such like, thus similar to American Halloween Trick-o-Treating. Sometimes, if people didn't give them anything or would not open their doors, children would make a terrible racket, originally with pots, pans, drums and _rummelpots_ (a special type of droning instrument). In the most recent past they would fire off fireworks. (I remember one case in which teenagers stuck life fireworks into someone's letterslot in the door and burnt up the place while the residents were on a trip ...) As you can see, there is a direct relationship between these customs and those of Scottish Hogmaney. There are also similarities with the Lucia festivities in Scandinavia, the use of candles (such as on Advent wreaths and Christmas trees) to symbolize the "pagan" rituals of bringing back the light in mid-winter, which was easy for the Christian churches to convert conceptually and ritually. In Northern Germany the "Dutch" and "German" customs have merged (just to confuse the children, I suppose). We have both Santa Claus (LS _Nicklas_, _Sinterklaas_, Germ. _(Sankt) Nikolaus_) on December 6 and Father Christmas (LS _Wiehnachtsmann, Germ. _Weihnachtsmann_). If you had been good all year, the former would put small gifts into your shoes, which you would have to shine and put on a window sill while saying a verse. The latter will bring gifts (or beat you with a bunch of faggots) on Christmas Eve. We were told he would come while we went to evening church service, funnily always one grown-up family member short, usually our father. (On our return there would be a huge hoopla -- "Oh, Father Christmas must have been here!") In many families' traditions, Father Christmas is accompanied by his servant Knecht Ruprecht (whose counterpart accompanies the Dutch Sinterklaas on December 6). (In the Roman Catholic south, the companion is the "Christ Child," or Father Christmas does not exist, and the "Christ Child" brings gifts.) In Hamburg, which is relatively cosmopolitan, many of these traditions co-exist(ed), because people's ancestry came from all of Germany and beyond. I happened to live in an area with an unusually high Roman Catholic concentration and got exposed to their customs early, and, to make it more complicated, among them South German, East German, Polish and Ukrainian ones coexisted. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 22:35:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:35:25 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.07 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] > Back to the *European* Lowlands, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the > basic > word for 'cat' is _Katt_ ~ _kat_ ([kat]). You can also say > _Muuschkatt_ > (['mu:Skat]), _Muusch_ ([mu:S]), _Muuskatt_ (['mu:skat]), or _Puus_ > ([pu:s]), or you can use the nickname _Böönhaas'_ (['bø:nhQ:.z] ~ > ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). > > Kumpelmenten, > Reinhard/Ron > Dear Ron, In V we also have the same words for cats: kat (kater= male cat) poes poezekatje poezeke Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.02 (01) [E] > From: George M Gibault > Subject: Afrikaans tapes etc. > > I hope you will all take a look at Afrikaans at some point. It is full > of > wonderfully humorous expressions. (many perhaps common to Dutch, > Vlaams > and Platt?) > > In English we say for an unintentional giving away of a secret "He let > the > cat out of the bag." In Afrikaans it is "Hy het die aap uit die mou > laat > kom."" He has let the ape come out of the sleeve." How can you not > love a > language in which porcupine comes out as "skekelvark" or the equally > colourful "ystervark?" > > Best to all George Dear George, here are some West-Flemish expressions about cats: (written in a Dutch-like style) -De katte in de kelder kweken -Een veugel voor de katte zijn -De katte komt up de koôrde -Up iemand zitt'n lijk Stoffle up z'n katte -De veugeltjes die 's nuchtends vroeg schuf'ln worden van de katte gepakt -Katt'n in zakk'n koôpen -Konsuis konsoois de katte legt eiers -Het is nauwe muizen als de katte voor heur zelve muist -Ik zal er mijn katte van spreken -Hij zendt er zijn katte naartoe -Wacht u van katten die muizen zonder meeuwen -Heeft de katte haren wens, het zal muizen reg'nen -Overeenkom' lijk katt'n en hond'n -'k Wilde dat de katt'n uw aanzichte wiesen 't Is geên katte om zonder handschoe'n an te pakk'n -Om de katte een steirt te mak'n -Katje mie katje were -Katje-duik spel'n Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Indiomatica In Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Katt [kat] 'cat' * de Katt uut d'n Sack laten ("to let the cat out of the sack/bag") 'to let the cat out of the bag' (to let slip a secret') * de/'n Katt in 'n Sack köpen ("to buy a cat in a sack/bag") 'to buy a pig in a poke' (to acquire something without knowing what it is) * de Katt in 't Oog' slaan ("to hit the cat into the eye") 'to act in an insulting manner' * för de Katt ("for the cat") 'for the birds' (useless, trivial) * dat hett de Katt sick haalt ("the cat got it") 'for the birds' (useless, trivial) * dat lickt ... keen Katt wedder af ("no cat will lick it/that off ...") (something tarnishes ...'s reputation forever) * Daar sünd mehr Katten as Graden. ("There are more cats than (fish) bones.") 'They are in deep financial trouble.' * De Bruud hett de Katten nich good fodert. ("The bride didn't feed the cats well.") 'It's bad weather (on a wedding day).' Kater ['kQ:t3] 'tomcat' (also 'hangover') * d'n Kater bi d'n Steert hebben ("to have the tomcat by the tail") 'to be cookin' with gas/grease' (American) (to have mastered something and make good progress) * He süht uut as 'n aflickten Kater. ("He looks like a licked tomcat") 'He's well groomed.', 'His hair looks wet/greasy.' * nieglich/neeschierig sien (so) as 'n Kater ("to be as curious as a tomcat") 'to be very curious' * Hier hett de Kater de Müüs' speelt. ("The tomcat played with the mice here.") 'It's a terrible mess here.' * Dat is 'n slichten Kater, de (man) bloots vör een Lock must. ("It's a plain tomcat that hunts mice only in front of one hole.") 'Most men are Casanovas.' Aap [?Q:p] (~ Ape ['?Q:pe]) 'monkey', 'ape' * sik 'n Aap (~ Apen) köpen ("to buy oneself a monkey") 'to get drunk' * 'n Aap (~ Apen) in d'n Aars kieken ("to look a monkey up the ass/arse") 'to be very lucky', 'to get rich', 'to hit the big time' Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 22:43:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:43:15 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.07 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] > Back to the *European* Lowlands, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the > basic > word for 'cat' is _Katt_ ~ _kat_ ([kat]). You can also say > _Muuschkatt_ > (['mu:Skat]), _Muusch_ ([mu:S]), _Muuskatt_ (['mu:skat]), or _Puus_ > ([pu:s]), or you can use the nickname _Böönhaas'_ (['bø:nhQ:.z] ~ > ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). > > Kumpelmenten, > Reinhard/Ron > Dear Ron, In V we also have the same words for cats: kat (kater= male cat) poes poezekatje poezeke Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.02 (01) [E] > From: George M Gibault > Subject: Afrikaans tapes etc. > > I hope you will all take a look at Afrikaans at some point. It is full > of > wonderfully humorous expressions. (many perhaps common to Dutch, > Vlaams > and Platt?) > > In English we say for an unintentional giving away of a secret "He let > the > cat out of the bag." In Afrikaans it is "Hy het die aap uit die mou > laat > kom."" He has let the ape come out of the sleeve." How can you not > love a > language in which porcupine comes out as "skekelvark" or the equally > colourful "ystervark?" > > Best to all George Dear George, here are some West-Flemish expressions about cats: (written in a Dutch-like style) -De katte in de kelder kweken -Een veugel voor de katte zijn -De katte komt up de koôrde -Up iemand zitt'n lijk Stoffle up z'n katte -De veugeltjes die 's nuchtends vroeg schuf'ln worden van de katte gepakt -Katt'n in zakk'n koôpen -Konsuis konsoois de katte legt eiers -Het is nauwe muizen als de katte voor heur zelve muist -Ik zal er mijn katte van spreken -Hij zendt er zijn katte naartoe -Wacht u van katten die muizen zonder meeuwen -Heeft de katte haren wens, het zal muizen reg'nen -Overeenkom' lijk katt'n en hond'n -'k Wilde dat de katt'n uw aanzichte wiesen 't Is geên katte om zonder handschoe'n an te pakk'n -Om de katte een steirt te mak'n -Katje mie katje were -Katje-duik spel'n Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Indiomatica In Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Katt [kat] 'cat' (plural _Katten_ ['katn=]) * de Katt uut d'n Sack laten ("to let the cat out of the sack/bag") 'to let the cat out of the bag' (to let a secret slip) 'to lay the cards on the table' (to finally reveal something) * de/'n Katt in 'n Sack köpen ("to buy a cat in a sack/bag") 'to buy a pig in a poke' (to acquire something without knowing what it is) * de Katt in 't Oog' slaan ("to hit the cat in the eye") 'to be insulting' * för de Katt ("for the cat") 'for the birds' (useless, trivial) * dat hett de Katt sick haalt ("the cat got it") 'for the birds' (useless, trivial) * dat lickt ... keen Katt wedder af ("no cat will lick it/that off ...") 'That'll stick to ... (forever)' (something tarnishes ...'s reputation forever) * Daar sünd mehr Katten as Graden. ("There are more cats than (fish) bones.") 'They are in deep financial trouble.' * De Bruud hett de Katten nich good fodert. ("The bride didn't feed the cats well.") 'It's bad weather (on a wedding day).' Kater ['kQ:t3] 'tomcat' (also 'hangover', plural _Katers_) * d'n Kater bi d'n Steert hebben ("to have the tomcat by the tail") 'to be cookin' with gas/grease' (American) (to have mastered something and make good progress) * He süht uut as 'n aflickten Kater. ("He looks like a licked tomcat") 'He's well groomed.', 'His hair looks wet/greasy.' * nieglich/neeschierig sien (so) as 'n Kater ("to be as curious as a tomcat") 'to be very curious' * Hier hett de Kater de Müüs' speelt. ("The tomcat played with the mice here.") 'It's a terrible mess here.' * Dat is 'n slichten Kater, de (man) bloots vör een Lock must. ("It's a plain tomcat that hunts mice only in front of one hole.") 'Most men are Casanovas.' Aap [?Q:p] (~ Ape ['?Q:pe]) 'monkey'#, 'ape' (plural _Apen_ ['?Q:pm=]) * sik 'n Aap köpen ("to buy oneself a monkey") 'to get drunk' * 'n Aap in d'n Aars kieken ("to look a monkey up the ass/arse") 'to be very lucky', 'to get rich', 'to hit the big time' # Specifically 'monkey' can also be _Aapkatt_ ("ape cat"). Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 03:41:02 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 20:41:02 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.07 (05) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Swanepoels Subject: Afrikaans Hi there, I agree that Afrikaans is a wonderfully, expressive language, tinted with the obvious African flavour, which it has been exposed to for so many years. I love it with a passion and it does allow for humorous expressions and "idiome", often involving animals eg. "moenie die bobbejaan agter die bult gaan haal nie", for warning against unnecessary, premature worry or concern about something that may not even happen. "Tiermelk", for beverages containing alcohol etc. Hope to hear some more Afrikaans soon, Susan Swanepoel ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Afrikaans Lewe Susan, Welkom by Lowlands-L, en baie dankie vir jou eerste insending! Ek is werklik bly, dat jy van Afrikaans melding maak -- ja, een uiters belangwekkende en betowernde taal -- en ek hoop, dat jy jou kennis daarvan dikwels onder ons bekend sal maak. Ons het ook baie Afrikaners en Afrikaans-entoesiaste onder ons, selfs onder Lowlands-L se "ringkoppe". Maar in die laaste tyd is hulle bietjie stil, om dit maar saggies uit te druk. (Nie meer geïnteresseerd nie? Besig op 'n ander, beter lys? Te veel tiermelk? ...) Miskien kan jy ons help hulle "agter die bult gaan haal." Met vriendelike groete, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: Ekskuus hierdie Nedersaksiese Laelander se Afrikaans! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 04:17:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:17:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (03) [E] Tom wrote: < Thank you for the information. I had forgotten about the paper lanterns we < carried with lit candles in them. Suennermarten is clearly the same < holdiday that we had. I asume that it must be limited to the north of < Germany because none of the Germans I have met here (allmost all from < south < Germany) had ever heard of it. If you can dig up the song, I would < greatly < appreciate it. < The fire festival was as you described it. Only a few couples jumped over < the fire and that only when the fire had burned quite low. < By the way, does Nikolaus still have his place on December 6th or has he < been displaced by the American Santa Claus by now? Im Schwoabaländle wo`n i ufgwachsa bee, hot`s ao dr Sankt Mardin gäba. Mir sen mit de Laternla omadomgloffa un hent Liadla gsonga: "Ich geh mit meiner Laterne...".... deeß hoißt also dass`es im Siid-Weschda vo Deitschland fei scho dr St Mardin geit. Nadiirlich ao de andre Sacha wo dr Ron gsait hot, mit vor-chischdliche Rituale und so weidr. Mir Schoaba sen hald ao Allemanna. In Swabia, where I grew up, St Martin was celebrated as well. We went from house to house with our Lanterns singing "Ich geh` mit meiner Laterne..." ....which means that St Martin is known in the South West of Germany. Of course there are also the other customs that Ron mentioned, concerning the Allemannic area and their pre-christian rituals. We Swabians are Allemannic as well. Daniel ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Festivities Daniel, Lowlanders, We used to sing that German song up in the north too. The other one -- also a "song that never ends," I'm afraid -- was maccaronic: German, then suddenly (indented part below) switching over to Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Laterne, Laterne! Die Sonne, der Mond und die Sterne! Brenne auf, mein Licht! Brenne auf, mein Licht, Aber nur meine liebe Laterne nicht! Meine Laterne ist so schön! Da kann man mit spazieren gehn, In dem grünen Walde, Wo die Büchsen knallen, Waar de Oldsch mit 'n Lücht, De de Lüüd' bedrüggt, De de Eier haalt Un jüm nich betaalt.* Laterne, ... * In our Hamburg dialect with bookish influence due to rhythm: Latäane, Latäane! Die Sonne, dä Moond unnie Stäane! Brenne aauf, maain Licht! Brenne aauf, maain Licht, Åba nua maaine liebe Latäane nicht! Maaine Latäane isso schöön! Då kammammit spazieren gehn, In den grünen Walde, Wo die Bücksn knallen, Wo de Ollsch mit 'n Licht, De de Lüüt bedrücht, De de Aaier hoolt Un se nich betoolt.* My translation: Lantern, Lantern! The sun, the moon and the stars! Burn up, my light (= candle)! Burn up, my light, But not you, my lovely lantern! My lantern is so beautiful! You can go for walks with it, In the green woods, Where rifle shots ring out, Where the old woman with a light [is/lives] Who bamboozles folks, Who keeps taking eggs And won't pay for them. Lantern, ... The German sentence _Da kann man mit spazieren gehn_ has a definite northern (Missingsch) ring to it. In proper "High" German it would be _Damit kann man spazieren gehn_ (but that wouldn't work in the song). Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 15:04:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:04:48 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (01) [E/LS/S/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (08) [E/LS] >From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen >Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] > >> From: Eldo Neufeld >> Subject: LL-L Festivals >> Of >course among the sweets that are given to children at "Sint Maarten" - >known in mostly northern parts of the Netherlands - are "pepernoten" as >well, but they don't play a key role. > >St. Maarten was discussed on this list in Nov 1996. Let me quote a small >Grunnens LS song that was posted then by Erik Springelkamp: > > Mien lutje lanteern > Ik sai die zo geern > > Ik loop langs de stroat'n > da ken ik nait loat'n > > Mien lutje lanteern > Ik sai die zo geern > >Groeten, >Floor van Lamoen. > >---------- > >From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com >Subject: Festivals > >Here is a translation of Floor's Groningen Lowlands Saxon lantern song into >Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) from not that much farther east across >the NL-DE border: > > Mien lí²"í´ªe Lanteern, > Ik seh di so geern. > > Ik loop langs de straat'n. > Da' kann ik nich laat'n. > > Mien lí²"í´ªe Lanteern, > Ik seh di so geern > >The difference is mostly orthographic (Dutch- vs. German-based). In many >dialects _she_ would be _seih_ [za.I] too. > >Rough translation: > > My little lantern, > I love seeing you. > I walk down the streets, > Just don't want to stop. > > My little lantern, > I love seeing you. > >Kumpelmenten, >Reinhard/Ron Moin Floor, Ron and all ! The song You call a Grunnens (Groningen) one is known to me as a genuine text from the Eastern Friesland author Greta Schoon who composed it for the children (and together with them) during her working in a kindergarden. Completely it reads (unfortunately in the odd German based orthography): Mien lu"ttje Lantern, ik hebb Di so gern, Du danzt do"r de Straten, Du kannst dat nich laaten. Ik mutt mit Di lopen, mutt singen un ropen. Mien lu"ttje Lantern, ik hebb Di so gern. --- Mien lu"ttje Lantern, ik hebb Di so gern. Du Wind laat dat susen ! Krup achter de Husen, krup achter de Dieken, fandaag must Du wieken. Mien lu"ttje Lantern, ik hebb Di so gern. ---- Mien lu"ttje Lantern, Du glaist as een Steern. Daar tinkelt gien Maandje, daar krait uns kien Hahntje, danz wieder, danz wieder ! Ik sing immer blieder: Mien lu"ttje Lantern ik hebb Di so gern. An English translation of the contents: My little lantern I love You so much You dance through the streets, You cannot stop I must go with You, must sing, must shout My little... My little... You, wind, stop blowing, hide behind the houses hide behind the dikes, today You must leave. My little... My little lantern You glow like a star no moon-y is twinkling no cock is crowing dance further, dance further ! I chant still brighter my little lantern I love You so much. Kumpelmenten Holger ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (06) [E] I know the St. Martin-tradition from the Lower Rhine area near Glabbeek/Moenchengladbach where I spent some time in my childhood but in my native Rendsborg in Slesvig-Holsten this tradition is unknown, instead we have the "Rummelpott", celebrated at New Year's Eve in a similar fashion but we don't have lanterns, instead we use a bladder stretched over a bowl (or a bigger 'pott') and it is used to create a particular sound while the children go around in the early evening and request "bunschers" (sweets) and sing songs, most of them in Low Saxon. This tradidition is known in the whole of Southern Jutland down to, as far as I know, Hamborg. ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (06) [E] I grew up between the Harz mountains and the Weser river; we used to go from door to door and sing, and receive sweets and other goodies, basically to shut us up and make us go away! There's one Lower Saxon Martin song I remember, but as usual, I don't know how to spell it "correctly": Matten Matten Abend, de Äppel un de Beren, dat Himmelreich is upgedaan, da woll'n wer alle rinnegaan, an diesen Matten Abend. Southern Lower Saxony is very Protestant; therefore, while in the southern regions of Germany and also in North Rhine-Westphalia, which is mainly Catholic, St. Martin songs and traditions refer to the fellow who split his coat, where I come from the meaning has shifted. Even almost 40 years ago, most of the songs we sang would refer to Martin Luther instead (whose birthday was November 10th; I seem to remember that was also the day we did our singing). The standard was: Als Martin noch ein Knabe war (or, frequently: Als Martin Luther ein Knabe war), da hat er gesungen so manches Jahr vor fremder Leute Türen, vor fremder Leute Türen. Actually, my friends and I sang my new and improved version: "vor fremder Leute Türen, ganz ohne Starallüren". But I doubt that that has become a tradition... While, in other parts of Germany, walking with lanterns is a St. Martin's thing, we did that all through the fall whenever we felt like it; it had no connection with St. Martin's Day whatsoever that we were aware of. Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Gabriele: > While, in other parts of Germany, walking with lanterns is a St. Martin's > thing, we did that all through the fall whenever we felt like it; it had no > connection with St. Martin's Day whatsoever that we were aware of. Same thing up in urban Hamburg, Gabriele. I wouldn't even have known what you were talking about had you said "St. Martin" when I was a child. We were able to do _Laternelaufen_ (G) or _La(n)teernlopen_ (LS) anytime in the fall, whenever it wasn't raining, when our parents would allow it, and whenever an adult or late-teen chaparone for the little ones could be scared up. Apparently, in some places outside the urban area, even still within the state of Hamburg and _umrum_ (Missingsch for "roundabout"), Martinmas had not yet been forgotten. Our own Clara Cramer-Freudenthal writes about this from her childhood in the Old Land (Olland), and something about it is posted at her site: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/, namely "De Martinsdag / Martinmas" (http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/martinsdag.htm). Grötens, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (06) [E] Dear Tom, I forgot to answer you second question. Of course Nikolaus is still on the 6th of Dec. and has not been replaced by Santa. In Germany He accompanied by Knecht Ruprecht, and in Austria by the Grampus, two mean characters who put naughty children in the sack they carry around with them. According to the myth the naughtiest children are subsequently beaten. Merry Christmas. Daniel ---------- From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (07) [E/S] Fellow Lowlanders, You remind me of the first verse of the Scottish Ballad "Get Up and Bar The Door" to wit: "It fell aboot the Martinmass time And a gay time it was then oh Whan oor guid wife got puddins tae mak And she biled them in the pan oh Fall the riddle fall the riddle fall the riddle aye doh" Sadly, no recipe! Best to all George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 15:07:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:07:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (02) [D]] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Hallo Luc, Laaglanders, > > Misschien een idee dat je een aanvullend stuk over 'naamgeving' of > iets > > dergelijks schrijft (een bewerking van wat je hieronder hebt > > geschreven), > > dan > > kunnen we dat toevoegen aan de pagina over Vlaams. Ron's stuk over > > Nedersaksisch heeft ook een paragraaf over naamgeving, dus misschien > > in die > > trant... > > > > Wellicht kun je wat kortsluiten met de auteur, Luc Vanbrabant? > > Hallo, jullie beiden. Moet ik wat kortsluiten? Dan ga je dat toch even > moeten uitleggen wat je daar precies mee bedoelt hoor. Dit bericht is een fragment uit een privé-mail die ik naar Marco heb gestuurd, maar die per ongeluk op de lijst terecht is gekomen, vandaar dat je er geen touw aan vast kan knopen :-) . Het ging om de website Lowlands Talk (http://lowlands-l.net/talk), waarvoor jij een inleidend verhaal over het Vlaams hebt geschreven. Marco en ik denken dat de term "Vlaams" zoals die hier gebruikt wordt voor veel Hollanders verwarrend is. Dit komt doordat het Zeeuws zo expliciet vermeld wordt, terwijl het Zeeuws alleen aan het West-Vlaams sterk verwant is, veel minder aan het Oost-Vlaams. Aan de overeenkomsten tussen Oost- en West-Vlaams kan ik uiteraard niet spreken. Bij de term "Vlaams" denk de gemiddelde Hollander aan het Nederlands zoals dat wordt (uit)gesproken in België, niet aan het oude graafschap Vlaanderen en al helemaal niet aan het Zeeuws. Ik bedoelde dat hier misschien een verklarende paragraaf over naamgeving en de daarmee aangeduidde gebieden duidelijkheid zou kunnen verschaffen in deze uiterst complexe situatie. > > Aanhalen Marco Evenhuis : > > > >> Hoi, > >> > >>> Ik ook! Vrij lastig dat hij enerzijds taalkundig een overeenkomst > met > >> Zeeuws > >>> beschijft, > > Die is er toch!! > En dat ik er niet veel over uitweid is, omdat ik daar geen nonsens wil > verkopen.Ik ken de taalsituatie in Nederland minder dan iemand uit > Nederland zelf. Wie die daar een deftige tekst tussen wil plaatsen > over het Zeeuws moet het voor mij niet laten. Dat kan mij alleen maar > blij maken. De taalkundige overeenkomst tussen Zeeuws en West-Vlaams bestaat inderdaad, maar met Oost-Vlaams is deze overeenkomst nu juist veel kleiner. Althans, dit heb ik altijd begrepen, en is mij ook opgevallen. > >>> maar politiek > > ??? taalkundig, cultureel en politiek... > > >>> gezien beschouwd hij het algemene Belgische > >> Nederlands > >>> óók als Vlaams... > > Dat is in de meeste teksten die in België verschijnen ook zo. Ik denk > dat ik in enkele korte zinsconstructies heb proberen weer te geven wat > de moeilijkheid is met die verschillende naamgevingen. We moeten hier > ook oppassen om niet te veel in haarklieverij te vervallen . Het moet > interessant en leuk lezen blijven voor anderen buiten dit taalgebied > ook.Het verschil tussen Vlaams en Vlaams zit wel degelijk in de tekst > verborgen, zij het kort. Ik vrees dat dat misschien iets explicieter moet, Hollanders zijn niet gewenst zo genuanceerd over Vlaanderen en het Vlaams te denken :-) . Vandaar mijn 'proefbalonnetje' ten aanzien van een aparte paragraaf. Hartelijke groeten, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 15:09:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:09:48 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: denis dujardin Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.07 (04) [E] Not to forget: in West-Flemish: "t'spuuwt kattejongen" (litt: "it is spitting kittens") meaning : "It's raining cats and dogs". denis dujardin kortrijk flanders ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 20:58:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:58:45 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.01 (04) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Swanepoels Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.07 (05) [A/E] Liewe Reinhard, Wat 'n verrassing om 'n Nedersaksiese Laaglander so uitstekend te hoor / sien Afrikaans praat. Aangesien die taal dikwels deur sommige van my Nederlandse vriende as "een schattig taaltje" beskryf word, neem ek aan dat dit soms as die "Aspoestertjie" van die LL-tale beskou word. Die geskiedenis en ontwikkeling daarvan, is natuurlik baie interessant en dikwels hoor ek Engelssprekendes, wat ook Afrikaans effens magtig is sê, dat dit so 'n poëtiese taal is en soveel meer beskrywend as hul eie taal. Daarmee stem ek saam, want emosie en fyner nuanses kan met Afrikaans onverbeterlik uitgedruk word. Wat die "ringkoppe" van Lowlands-L betref, laat hoor gerus meer van julle kennis van Afrikaans, en ek sal nie omgee as julle soms van die os op die jas spring nie. Groete, Susan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Afrikaans Liewe Susan, > Wat 'n verrassing om 'n Nedersaksiese Laaglander so uitstekend te hoor / > sien Afrikaans praat. "Uitstekend"?! Ha! Mooipratertjie! ;) Ek weet, dat dit nie uitstekend is nie! Susan, Laaglanders, op hierdie lys het ons geen "Aspoestertjie" onder die tale nie, en ook geen kwaaie stiefma en stiefsusters nie (nee, ook geen prins nie). Hulle is almal sustertale. Elke suster is op haar eie wys aantreklik and lieflik, en hulle het mekaar lief. Seker wil die meeste Laaglanders, soos ek, graag meer in en oor Afrikaans hoor/lees. Groete, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 21:04:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:04:42 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (03) [E] Beste Laaglanders, > In Northern Germany the "Dutch" and "German" customs have merged (just > to confuse the children, I suppose). We have both Santa Claus (LS > _Nicklas_, _Sinterklaas_, Germ. _(Sankt) Nikolaus_) on December 6 and > Father Christmas (LS _Wiehnachtsmann, Germ. _Weihnachtsmann_). Just to give an example of how traditions get merged or mixed (up) or how people deal with different traditions that come together. In my village in Western Lower-Saxony we had Sünnerklaas (accompanied by Knecht Ruprecht) the Weihnachtsmann, and the Christkind. I should maybe add that it is a Catholic region, if that matters. Sünnerklaas came on December 6, but even before he would bring candy if you put some food for his horse on the window sill. On December 6 Sünnerklaas came to town (on his horse), with Knecht Ruprecht and a lot of angles (usually the second or third grade girls in their first communion dresses, with wings attached to it). At this evening we also had our lanterns with us, IIRC. We did not have Sankt Martin, this was something the people in the City (of Meppen) did. I still can remember that our neighbor, who had cousins in Meppen, went to the Sankt Martin parade, and got candies, and we still had to wait for a couple of weeks. On Christmas eve you had either the Weihnachtsmann or the Christkind, but not both. In our family we had always the Christkind. The Weihnachtmann was just present in his chocolate manifestation. BTW: The Christkind is not "Baby Jesus". It is actually no baby at all, it is more a fairy. I just want to mention it, since I heard people who are unfamiliar with the Christkind complaining about us, cruel Germans, who let a baby bring all the heavy gifts. But it is just a heavenly creature who does this by magic. That's why you are supposed to see a short flash of light when the presents are delivered. It is getting cold outside. Time for hotchpotch:) Ansgar ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (01) [E/LS/S/German] Helge Tietz wrote: > I know the St. Martin-tradition from the Lower Rhine > area near Glabbeek/Moenchengladbach where I spent some > time in my childhood but in my native Rendsborg in > Slesvig-Holsten this tradition is unknown, instead we > have the "Rummelpott", celebrated at New Year's Eve in > a similar fashion but we don't have lanterns, instead > we use a bladder stretched over a bowl (or a bigger > 'pott') and it is used to create a particular sound > while the children go around in the early evening and > request "bunschers" (sweets) and sing songs, most of > them in Low Saxon. This tradidition is known in the > whole of Southern Jutland down to, as far as I know, > Hamborg. Actually, the "Rommelpot" is a Dutch tradition as well. There's a song that goes with it: "Rommelpotterij, rommelpotterij, geef maar 'n centje, dan ga ik voorbij. 'k Heb geen geld om brood te kopen, daarom moet ik met de rommelpot lopen. Rommelpotterij, rommelpotterij, geef maar 'n centje, dan ga ik voorbij." The song seems to indicate that the "rommelpot" is an implement used by beggars going from door to door. I don't know much about the circumstances, I'm afraid. Groetjes, Gabriele Kahn ----------- From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (01) [E/LS/S/German] Dear Lowlanders, Gabriele wrote: > Southern Lower Saxony is very Protestant; therefore, while in the southern > regions of Germany and also in North Rhine-Westphalia, which is mainly > Catholic, St. Martin songs and traditions refer to the fellow who split his > coat, where I come from the meaning has shifted. Even almost 40 years ago, > most of the songs we sang would refer to Martin Luther instead (whose > birthday was November 10th; I seem to remember that was also the day we did > our singing). The standard was: > > Als Martin noch ein Knabe war (or, frequently: Als Martin Luther ein Knabe > war), > da hat er gesungen so manches Jahr > vor fremder Leute Türen, > vor fremder Leute Türen. > > Actually, my friends and I sang my new and improved version: "vor fremder > Leute Türen, ganz ohne Starallüren". But I doubt that that has become a > tradition... > > While, in other parts of Germany, walking with lanterns is a St. Martin's > thing, we did that all through the fall whenever we felt like it; it had no > connection with St. Martin's Day whatsoever that we were aware of. > > Regards, > Gabriele Kahn It is true that Westphalia is mostly Catholic. But in the cities like Münster and especially in the Ruhr District, there is a mixture of catholics and protestants. Nearly every "part of town" has two churches, one catholic and one protestant. Maybe it's because of that mixture, but our protestant church organized "Laternenumzüge" (going round with the lantern) and explicitly in connection with Sankt Martin and the parting of the coat. I am not sure, but it might have been organized by the two churches together. Schöne Grüße Jan Strunk strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 22:53:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:53:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] denis dujardin wrote: > Not to forget: in West-Flemish: "t'spuuwt > kattejongen" (litt: "it is spitting kittens") > meaning : "It's raining cats and dogs". Time to spit out some expressions related to cats in Zeelandic. At random, first a variation on the one mentioned by Denis above: *_de katten spiee_: litt. the cats are spitting; it's going to rain *_de katte kom op 't koord"_: the cat's coming on the cord; it's getting tricky now *_da za de katte 't 'aer uutgae_: it will come out the cat's hair; it's going to be a close/near thing *_da geeve ik an de katte_: that, I give to the cat; I don't care about that *_allez, de katte van de plaete_: come on, (send) the cat of the fireplate; get out of the way *_zò groôs as een katte die een daerm sleept_: as proud as a cat dragging a bowel; very proud *_e baemiskatte_: an 'autumn cat', litt. a very weak cat, but also used in respect to weak children A popular wisdom: "Negen weken jaege, negen weken draege, negen weken blind, da's de katte z'n kind." (Nine weeks of hunting nine weeks of carrying nine weeks blind, that's a cat's child) Has anyone heard of an equivalent of the Zeelandic _kattendans_ (fairy ring, Dutch: heksenkring), not only in the meaning of fungi growing in a circle, but also litterally a circle of dancing cats at night, putting a spell on someone and thus both causing the circle of fungi and putting the spell. The 'Woordenboek der Zeeuwse Dialecten' mentions a song: "Hand in hand, poôt in poôt, Jan van Balen z'n koeie is doôd" (Hand in hand paw in paw Jan van Balen's cow is dead) Regards, Marco ----------- From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.07 (04) [E] Some more expressions about cats: D: De kat in het donker knijpen WF: De kat yn 't tjuster knipe "To pinch a cat in the darkness" Do something illegal. D: Je moet de kat niet op het spek binden "You should not tie the cat to the pork" You should not lead somebody into temptation. D: Zij heeft de kat aan de kaas laten komen "She allowed the cat to the cheese" She let herself make pregnant D: Kat in't bakkie "Cat in the [cat]box" That was easy WF: Eine as in kat op nútsdoppen "Proceed as a cat on nutshells" Proceed very slowly WF: De kat sil net mei myn mage fuort gean "The cat will not run away with my stomach" I am hungry Kind regards, Groetjes, Groetnis, Floor. ---------- From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Idiomatica" Here are some "cat" proverbs in Scots. I'm not good at interpreting proverbs (most seem to have multiple meanings to me and work best in some context), so I'll leave that as an excercise to the reader! A bawbee cat can leuk at a king. "A halfpeny cat can look at a king" (A cat may look at a queen) A blate cat maks a prood moose. "A shy cat makes a proud mouse" (When the cat's away the mice will play) Aa cats is grey in the dark. "All cats are grey in the dark" A scauded cat dreids cauld watter. "A scalded cat dreads cold watter" (Once bitten, twice shy) He can haud the cat an play wi the kitten. "He can hold the cat and play with the kitten" (He can chew gum and walk at the same time (but perhaps not intended so sarcastically!)) He's unco fond o fermin that wad harrow wi the cat. "He's remarkably fond of farming who would harrow with the cat" The cat's oot o the pock. "The cat's out of the bag" Wha daur bell the cat? "Who dares to bell the cat?" (This refers to the well-known Scottish concept that if only one mouse were brave enough to put a bell round the cat's neck, they could all raid the pantry) Ye glower like a cat oot o a whinbush. "You glare like a cat from (gorse/broom)" Ye wad clatter a cat tae daith. "You would chatter the cat to death" (You'd talk the hind legs off a donkey) Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 22:56:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:56:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Dawn Work MaKinne Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (05) [D/E] Dear Lowland-Experts, "Somewhere" in my files I think I have a reference to St-Martin Day having also a focus on the folkloric-figure/goddess Holla (Holle). I collect Holla references, and I have many of course relating to the Yule season December and January, but only found one reference to Holla festivities around November 11. Has anyone else heard of such a thing? Dawn in Des Moines, Iowa ---------- From: Thomas Byro thbyro at earthlink.net Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (05) [D/E] I didn't know that Westphalia is mostly Catholic. I came from that portion that is like a peninsula stuck deep within Niedersachsen and the area was overwhelmingly Evangelish-Lutherisch. However, this does not mean that we saw the people of Niedersachsen as like us. I remember as a child, gaping at a woman who had moved to our area from Niedersachsen, like she was a martian. We even had a saying (which I remember in Hochdeutsch) "Sachsen, wo die Maedel an die Baueme wachsen". Tom ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 14:31:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 07:31:07 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.09 (01) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] > From: Marco Evenhuis > Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] > > Has anyone heard of an equivalent of the Zeelandic > _kattendans_ (fairy ring, Dutch: heksenkring), not > only in the meaning of fungi growing in a circle, but > also litterally a circle of dancing cats at night, putting > a spell on someone and thus both causing the circle > of fungi and putting the spell. Dear Lowlanders, In the Plautdietsch dialect of Lower Saxon/Low German there are well-known expressions relating to the dancing of cats, as follows: Nu es de Kotadaunz doa! / Nu fangt de Kotadaunz aun! Literally translated into English they read: 'Now the dance of the tomcats is there! / begins!' They are exclamations of dismay or alarm at turmoil and/or recriminations that follow revelation of secretive or undesirable activities. These Plautdietsch expressions apparently do not relate to the casting of spells or to the growth of fungi. Reuben Epp ---------- From: johnno55 at excite.com johnno55 at excite.com Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.07 (05) [A/E] Groete aan almal in ons lys, Ek het Ron se boodskap deeglik ter harter geneem dus skryf ek sommer nou so 'n paar woordjies. Welkom Susan, dis lekker om jou hier by ons te hê. I am a "rooinek" who also loves Afrikaans even the Zimbabwean version where I once lived. Speaking of idioms with animals Afrikaans truly abounds with them "hy weet van iets soveel soos 'n bobbejaan van Godsdiens" and "ou koeie uit die sloot grawe". The first one is self explanatory but the second means remembering things which should have been forgotten (many wives are adept at this :)). I hope I wont be executed for this! John le Grange PS Ron your Afrikaans is vastly better than my Niedersachsies but I can at least read many of the sister languages easily thanks to the lowlander's list. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 14:35:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 07:35:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club botas at club-internet.fr Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.06 (04) [D] Hoi, Leeglanders: Marco schreef:. > Karel de Grote sprak een Oud-Brabants dialect Het lijkt me dat ik wat bijles nodig heb. In mijn hoofd zit nog vast wat ons op school (D) werd geleerd: Dat Karel de Grote middel-frankisch (of is het midden-frankish?) sprak, dat hij een administrative rijkstaal heeft gekreëerd gebaseerd op zijn eigen dialekt, en dat daaruit het "Duits" is voortgevloeid. Wie geeft me bijles? Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Mike-club botas at club-internet.fr Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.04 (01) [D] Hi, Lowlanders, Marco wrote: > Hier op Souburg zijn zo'n vijftig jaar geleden > enkele honderden Molukkers neergestreken op > een bevolking van (toen) ongeveer 4.500. In > getal deden ze wat dat betreft ook relatief gezien > ongetwijfeld niet onder voor het aantal Huge- > noten een paar eeuwen eerder. Toch geloof ik > niet dat er ook maar één Moluks-Maleis woord > in de lokale omgangstaal is doorgedrongen. En > dat terwijl ondertussen de derde generatie Moluk- > kers volwassen is en zich een vierde generatie aan- > dient. I feel that the change of environment between then and now also plays a role. Now: Mandatory schooling inescapably grabs every six-year old and shoves down his throat only one language, the so-called national language of the country - TV does the rest. What took generations then with plenty of chances for lingustic exchanges between the residents and newcomers is now achieved in one generation. Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 15:07:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:07:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (03) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) Subject: festivities Dear Lowlanders, after months of silence here comes a contribution from my part. For time reasons and due to personal circumstances I haven't checked all the postings of the previous months which meanwhile occupy quiete some space on my hard disk. Starting with the most recent postings I found the customs of St. Martin a very interesting subject since there is a typical song here in northern Emsland that children sing on that day when they go from house to house in the neighbourhood and ask for sweets: Kip Kap Kögel, sünner Martins Vögel. Hier waant de rieke Mann, de us wall wat geven kann. Vele schöll he geven, lange schöll he leven. Nu laat us nich to lange staan, wi mööt noch'n Hüüsken wieder gaan. Wi mööt noch heel na Bremen. Bremen is 'ne grote Stadt, dor krieget alle Kinner wat. After this song the children hold their bags open and the housewife puts the candies in. When leaving the house they sing: Buur bind den Pudel an, dat he us nich bieten kann. Bitt he us, verklaag wi jau. Dusend Daaler kost' dat jau. Does anybody know the meaning of "Kip Kap Kögel" and "Sünner Martins Vögel" (=the birds of St. Martin ??) Ansgar Fehnker, I'm quite surprised that there is no St. Martins tradition in Teglingen as that place is only 30 km away from Wippingen. The other customs in the Meppen area are almost the same except for "Pinksterblömken" which is unknown here in Northern Emsland and Hümmling. Maybe you can tell about that. I would like to know if the custom of "Pinksterblömken" is still alive there. In the village of Schwefingen, where my mother was born, this tradition has died in the 1960s. However, I think that it still exists in the Haselünne region. Regards Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Festivities Moin, Zintus! Is prima Di wedder mank us to tellen! Lowlanders, I've long wondered what those birds of St. Martin's are. I assume there is some medieval legend behind it. Well, might the following be the answer? Martinsfischer (St. Martin's fisherman) The colloquial name for the kingfisher bird. The legend tells that St. Martin gave bright white feathers to an ugly black bird, and the kingfisher was born. (http://www.martin-von-tours.de/lexikon/englisch_lexikon.html) Below is a Low Frankish Martinmas song (Mülheim an der Ruhr) that also mentions the birds. (How would you classify the variety? It seems very Limbugish to me.) I had first shared this with you in November 1999. Hammel, Hans-Dieter (1967), _Bedeutung, Wortschatz und Weltbild der niederfränkischen Mundart von Mülheim an der Ruhr_; doctoral dissertation, Freiburg im Breisgau: Albert-Ludwigs-Universität. (Substitutions: ë for superscript e (schwa), ä for superscript a, ê for ä) Sintër-Mêêtës-Liit sintër mêêtës füüjëlschë hêt sun ruuät kapüüjëlschë, chëfloojë, chëstoowë wiit, wiit ööwër dë riin, wuu dë fêtë fêrkës siin. chut frou, cheeft us wat, aal dë hünnerkës leejë wat! boowën in dë fêêschë hangë dë langë wööstë, cheeft us dë langë, loot dë kotë hangë, loot us nit su lang hii stoon, wêi müütë ën hüüskë widër choon, hii fan dên noo êêsë, hoolën ën fêtëm blêêsë, hiifüür doofüür, füür dë riikë koupmansdüür. Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann, der uns was geben kann; viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben, selig soll er sterben, das Himmelreich erwerben (~ ererben). dë maat dii löp dë trapën ërop, pak waal in de nöötësak, pak waal nit dërneewë, sal us waal wat cheewë. chif wat, haul wat, teejën't joor wiër wat. sintër mêêtës stupstat schmiit ën apël duar dat chat, schmiit ën nit të wiit süs fêlt hë in dên driit (~ diik) schmiit ën nit të hat, süs fêlt hë in dat chat. muus, muus, kum ëruut, chif us êpël un nöötë, êpël un nöötë siint su chut füür dên aulen patsfut. German-based Orthography (R. F. Hahn) Sinter-Mätes-Lied Sinter Mätes Vüjelsche hätt su'n ruat Kapüjelsche, gefloje, gestowe wiet, wiet öwer de Rhien, wu de fette Ferkes sien. Chutt Frou, geeft us wat! Aall de Hünnerkes leje wat! Bowen in de Fääsche hange de lange Wööste. Geeft us de lange! Loot de kotte hange! Loot us nitt su lang hie stohn! wäi müte en Hüüske widder gohn, hie van denn noh Äse, holen en fettem Bläse, hievür, dovür, vür de rieke Koupmannsdüür. Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann, der uns was geben kann; viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben, selig soll er sterben, das Himmelreich erwerben (~ ererben). De Maat, die löpp de Trappen eropp, Pack wahl in de Nötesack, Pack wahl nitt dernewe, sall us wahl wat gewe. Giff wat, haul wat, Tejen't Johr wier wat. Sinter Mätes Stuppstatt schmiet en Appel duar dat Gatt. Schmiet en nitt te wiet, süss fällt he in den Driet (~ Diek). Schmiet en nitt te hatt, süss fällt he in dat Gatt. Muus, Muus, kumm eruut! Giff us Äppel un Nöte! Äppel un Nöte siend su gutt für den aulen Pattsfutt. Dutch-based Orthography (R. F. Hahn) (ü as in German 'Hütte', ê as in Afrikaans 'hê' with long and short versions, oe short before double letters) Zinter-Mêtes-Lied Zinter Mêtes vujelsje het zoenn roeäd kapujelsje, gefloje, gesjtowe wied, wied euwer de Rien woe de vette verkes zien. Goedd frou, geeft oess wat! Aal de hünnerkes leje wat! Bowen in de vêêsje hange de lange weuste. Geeft oess de lange! Loot de kotte hange! Loot oess nit zoe lang hie sjtoon! Wei mute en huuske widder goon, hie van den no Esse, holen en vettem blesse, hie vuur, do vuur, vuur de rieke koupmansduur. Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann, der uns was geben kann; viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben, selig soll er sterben, das Himmelreich erwerben (~ ererben). De maat, die lup de trappen erop, pak waal in de neutezak, pak waal nit dernewe, zal oess waal wat gewe. Gif wat, hauwl wat, tejen't joor wier wat. Zinter Mêtes sjtoepp-sjtat sjmiet en appel doeär dat gat. Sjmiet en nit te wied, züs felt he in den driet (~ diek). Sjmiet en nit te hat, züs felt he in dat gat. Moes, moes, koemm eroet! Gif oess eppel oenn neute! Eppel oenn neute ziend zoe goedd vuur den auwlen patsfoett. English translation (R. F. Hahn) Martinmas Song Saint Martin's little bird had one of those little red hoods, has flown, was blown far, far across the Rhine where the chubby piglets are. Good lady, give us something! All the chickens lay something! Up there in the gable long sausages are hanging. Give us the long one! Leave the short one hanging! Don't let us stand here all that long! We've got to go to the next house, from here all the way to Essen, taking along a fat cow with a blaze in front of this, in front of that, in front of the rich merchant's door. A wealthy man lives here who can give us things. He's got to give us plenty. Long shall he live! Blissfully he shall die, shall receive (~ inherit) the heavenly realm! The maid runs up the stairs, puts her hand into the bag of nuts. Her hand surely won't miss. She surely will give us some. Give a little, hold a little, and some more a year from now. Saint Martin's stubby tail flings an apple through the hole. Don't fling it too far, or it will fall in the muck (~ pond). Don't fling it too hard, or it will fall in the hole. Mouse, mouse, come on out! Give us apples and nuts! Apples and nuts are oh so sweet for the old horse's ass. Alternative version in Hans Reis, _Die deutsche Mundartdichtung_, Berlin, Leipzig: Göschen, 1915; pp.13-14: Sinter Meetes Vügelsche Het sun ruat Kapügelsche Chefloge, chestowe Wahl öwer de Rhin, Wu die fette Ferkes sind. Chut Frau, cheeft us wat, All de Huhner lege wat. Bowen in de Feesche Hangen de langen Wööste. Cheft us de lange. Löt de kooten hange Lod us nit su lang hii schtoon, Wi müte noch en Hüske wider choon, Hi fan den no Esse, Holen en fettem Blesse. Hiefür, dofür, Für de rike Kaupmannsdür. Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann, Der uns was cheben kann Viel soll er cheben, Selig soll er schterben, Das Himmelreich erwerben. De Maate lööp de Trappen erop, Pack wahl in de Nüütesack, Pack wahl ni drneewe, Se weed us wahl wat cheewe. Chif wat, hoult wat Neechent Johr wier wat. Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 20:17:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:17:37 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.09 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Dear Lowlanders, Not that we do not already have more projects than you can shake a stick at, but I feel compelled to point you to an online audiovisual language presentation in the Tanacross Athabascan language of Alaska (http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/languages.html, http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/langs/tc.html). This might well be something that could be applied to Lowlands language varieties, especially to those that are rarely heard and those for which basic teaching material (especially for children) is needed: "Fishing Place": http://archives.anlc.uaf.edu/langs/tc/fish/ "What I Do": http://archives.anlc.uaf.edu/langs/tc/whatIdo/ And talking of "projects," let me remind you of our evolving Lowlands-l companion presentation "Lowlands Talk": http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/ One person said he had difficulties navigating the site. Here are easy instructions for those who need them: 1 --> Go to http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk 2 --> Choose the language you want to read in.* 3 --> Click on any Lowlands language variety on the left (or on the bottom): Afrikaans ( ) Appalachian ( ) Dutch English ( ) [being worked on] Frisian Limburgish Low Saxon Scots Zeelandic ( ) Contact Languages * So far, there are more finished versions in English than in the other languages. Some more are being worked on, and some have not yet been started. We would be grateful fore translation help, especially French. ( ) not yet finished, but sub-categories may be finished We could definitely do with some help: (1) writing brief introductions to Afrikaans, Appalachian and Zeelandic (2) writing brief(er) introductions to more specific sub-category varieties, also to various contact languages (creoles, pidgins, and other "mixed" varieties, such as Missingsch). (3) translate already finished versions into the remaining languages If you wish to help, please write to me (sassisch at yahoo.com). Thanks, and regards! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 20:59:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:59:56 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] Dear Lowlanders, Mike schreef: > Marco schreef:. > > Karel de Grote sprak een Oud-Brabants dialect > Het lijkt me dat ik wat bijles nodig heb. > In mijn hoofd zit nog vast wat ons op school (D) > werd geleerd: Dat Karel de Grote middel-frankisch > (of is het midden-frankish?) sprak, dat hij een > administrative rijkstaal heeft gekreëerd gebaseerd > op zijn eigen dialekt, en dat daaruit het "Duits" is > voortgevloeid. Het citaat dat Mike noemt, is niet van mij afkomstig. Niettemin een reactie. 'Oud-Brabants' lijkt me in dit verband een wat tendentieuze term, maar ik denk dat ik wel begrijp welke kant de schrijver (wie was dat overigens?) ermee bedoelt. Het Brabants is de west- germaanse streektaal met het meest (westneder-) Fran- kische karakter. Terugredeneren als zou Karel de Grote als spreker van het middelfrankisch 'dus' een soort oud- Brabants gesproken hebben, gaat zoals gezegd wel érg ver... Quoting Mike again: > Marco wrote: > > Hier op Souburg zijn zo'n vijftig jaar geleden > > enkele honderden Molukkers neergestreken op > > een bevolking van (toen) ongeveer 4.500. In > > getal deden ze wat dat betreft ook relatief gezien > > ongetwijfeld niet onder voor het aantal Huge- > > noten een paar eeuwen eerder. Toch geloof ik > > niet dat er ook maar één Moluks-Maleis woord > > in de lokale omgangstaal is doorgedrongen. En > > dat terwijl ondertussen de derde generatie Moluk- > > kers volwassen is en zich een vierde generatie aan- > > dient. > I feel that the change of environment between then > and now also plays a role. > Now: > Mandatory schooling inescapably grabs every > six-year old and shoves down his throat only > one language, the so-called national language > of the country - TV does the rest. > What took generations then with plenty of chances > for lingustic exchanges between the residents > and newcomers is now achieved in one > generation. Point well taken. But there is a small detail that is pretty important in this respect: even the fourth generation of people from the Moluccan Islands still speak their native language (Moluccan Malay) among themselves and the speak it perfectly! So there háve been generations with plenty of chances for linguistic exchanges, but there has not been any direct influence on the local dialect whasoever. Maybe the social prestige of the French Huguenots was much higher than that of the Moluccans. Maybe the Moluccans tend to keep their language to their own community more then the Huguenots did. May- be the Moluccan Malay influence on our local dialect will grow when the language dies out, with Moluccans speaking Dutch and using Moluccan Malay terms for things they can not name in Dutch... regards/groetjes, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 22:19:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:19:53 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (06) [E/Z] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] Gabriele Kahn wrote: > Actually, the "Rommelpot" is a Dutch tradition as well. There's a song that > goes with it: > > "Rommelpotterij, rommelpotterij, > geef maar 'n centje, dan ga ik voorbij. > 'k Heb geen geld om brood te kopen, > daarom moet ik met de rommelpot lopen. > Rommelpotterij, rommelpotterij, > geef maar 'n centje, dan ga ik voorbij." > > The song seems to indicate that the "rommelpot" is an implement used by > beggars going from door to door. I don't know much about the circumstances, > I'm afraid. We in "Zeêland", especially in Zuid-Beveland use exactly the same song, but then we say "koenkelpot " in stead of "Rommelpot". It was used on the evening before newyearsday. As you can see in a column I wrote in Zeêlandic for a local newspaper: Halloween in Zeêland Ei julder 't ok oal ezie: die pompoenen, heksen en spinnen in de wienkels ? Op 31 oktober wor Halloween evierd. 't Schient da Halloween een soort Nieuwjaer is en da mie de lichtjes in de pompoenen de geêsten van dooie familie verwelkomd worre. In Amerika gaè de huus die aevond verkleêd de straete op. Ze komme dan an je deure een liedje zienge om snoepjes te verdienen In Nederland doë me dat mie St. Maarten op 11 november. Daè è ik vroeger ok nog wè's een liedje over eleerd mie een koeie en staerten gloô'k en dan liep je mie een lampion rond. Bie oans doê ze daè nie echt an mee, want ik è gin kind an de deure ehad. Ik oa wè vee snoep in uus, want oanze oudsten was nèt viere eworre. En a je viere bin, mag je naè schole. Een eéle veranderienge voe zo'n kind. De juffrouw op schole, ok een echte Zeeuwse, oa d'r wè begrip voe da ze most wenne. Dus toen a d'r opa een keer meegoeng, mocht 'n even in de krieng meedoë en een Zeeuws liedje zienge dat a oanze dochter goed kent: Koenkelpotterij, koenkelpotterij gé me een centje dan ga'k voorbij: "'K è zo lank mie m'n koenkelpot elôpe, 'k è gin geld om een broôdje te kôpe, Vrouwe geef me dit, vrouwe geef me dat geef me een stik van 't verreke z'n gat: vier pôten en een staert, vrouwe is dat gin centje waerd vier pôten en een staert, vrouwe is dat gin centje waerd!" Mie de koenkelpot lôpe deë me in Zeêland mie d'n ouwejaer. In Yese is d'r een club mensen die a dat nog steeds doe. Eigenlijk is dat oans "Halloween", alleen doë oans 't in twî keer: Wie a nog een trommel, een verrekesblaeze en een stroôtje over eit, kan van Oud op Nieuw ôk mie de koenkelpot gelôpe. En 't verkleë? Dat doë me mie de Carnaval. Ommers; de optocht in 't Paerehat wor oaltiet eregeld deur...juust: de Koenkelpot. Om 't kriengetje aelemille rond te maeken: mie St. Maarten (d'n 11-den van d 'n elfden) begunne de caranavalsvoorbereidingen en is't motto voe kommende jaere wee bekend emikt. Me zoue in Zeêland dus zelfs 3 keer per jaer Halloween kunne viere! ExpresZo (dirrom zô) Hope to have added some interesting information. Kind regard, Margot van Baalen ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Festivities Here is a German definition of a _Rummelpott_: Zu früheren Zeiten (ca. 1860) gingen zu Martini die Jungen mit Rummelpotten und die Mädchen mit Kip-Kap-Kögels. Der Rummelpott besteht aus einem mit Wasser gefüllten Topf oder kleinem Faß. Über diesen Behälter wird stramm ein Stück eingeweichte Schweinsblase gezogen. In der Mitte der Schweinsblase wird ein Stück Spanisches Rohr befestigt. The cane is rubbed up and down with a wet hand, and a not especially musical sound is thus produced. Translation: "In earlier times (approx. 1860), during Martinmas boys would go around with _Rummelpotts_ ("rumble pots") and girls with _Kip Kap Kögels_. The _Rummelpott_ consisted of a pot or small cask filled with water. A pig's bladder is tightly affixed across the opening as a membrane. A piece of cane is attached in the center of the membrane. In the center of the pig blister a piece Spanish pipe is fastened. One rubs off with a damp hand against the pipe on and, then develops a clay/tone, which is not very musical." Other sources call for using a cloth to rub the cane. De rommelpot komt uitstekend tot zijn recht in traditionele volksdansmuziek, bijvoorbeeld in combinatie met doedelzak. Vroeger werd het instrument ook gebruikt ter ondersteuning van straatzang op Sint Maarten, Vastenavond of Driekoningen. Translation: "The _rommelpot_ is featured at its best in traditional folkdance music, for instance in combination with bagpipes. In earlier times it used to be used in support of street singing during Martinmas, Shrove Tuesdays (Mardi Gras) and Epiphany." ("Rommelpot" AND bagpipes ... Fortunately I like both.) Here the Dutch source with pictures http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/luc.dordregter/rommelpo.htm http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/luc.dordregter/ro4.htm Een rommelpot is een instrument. Geen speelgoed. Het neemt eigenlijk de rol van de bas over. Translation: "A _rommelpot_ is an instrument, not a toy. In actual fact, it plays the part of the bass." (I wish they would create the _rommelpot_ sound (which some perceive as somewhat rude) for the MIDI instrument selection so I can add it to my budding collection of Lowlands renaissance folkdances.) Some English sources call this type of instrument a "friction drum." It has many counterparts all over the world, also in Southern Europe (e.g., the Italian _pu-ti-pù_, the Greek _ghourghoúra_ and the Spanish _zambomba_. It is also found in India (the _baghra) in Orissa and the _nar hunkarnio_ in Rajastan). There are countless African counterparts, some of which have evolved into Caribbean and South American instruments. And there are also some pre-Columbian Central American ones. Below please find a few links to sites about _Rummelpott_- and _rommelpot_-related activities: Rummelpott in Flensburg (now unfortunately the northernmost city in which Lowlands Saxon [Low German] is used): http://www.flensburg-online.de/diverses/rummelpott.html Rummelpott songs: http://www.flensburg-online.de/diverses/rummelpott5.html Rummelpott in Schleswig-Holstein: http://www.sh-tourist.de/radderge/braeuche/sylveste/rummpott.htm Here you can listen to a Martinmas song from Eastern Friesland: http://www.plattplanet.de/fpx/martens.ram http://www.plattplanet.de/fpx/kippkapp.ram Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron P.S.: I still don't know what a _Kip(p-) Kap(p-) Kögel_ is. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 22:24:20 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:24:20 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.09 (01) [A/E] John le Grange schreef: > I am a "rooinek" who also loves Afrikaans even the Zimbabwean version > where I once lived. Omdat Afrikaans letterlijk zo ver van ons vandaan ligt, maar figuurlijk zo dichtbij komt, is het misschien goed om uit te leg- gen wat de verschillen zijn tussen normaal Afrikaans en het Afrikaans zoals dat in Zimbabwe gesproken wordt. Ik zou er zelf in elk geval graag meer van weten! Groetjes, Marco ---------- From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] > From: Mike-club botas at club-internet.fr > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.06 (04) [D] > > Hoi, Leeglanders: > Marco schreef:. >> Karel de Grote sprak een Oud-Brabants dialect Sorry Mike, Maar dat was mezelf (Luc Vanbrabant) die dat geschreven heeft met een berichtje naar Marco. Inderdaad: In Frankrijk beschouwen ze Karel de Grote als een (vroege) Fransman. En in Duitsland beschouwen ze Karel de Grote als een( vroege) Duitser! Wie heeft er nu gelijk? De waarheid ligt hier in het (geografische) midden. Karel de Grote is hoogstwaarschijnlijk geboren in de buurt van Luik , toen nog een Dietse stad (Jupille? - Herstal?). Ik heb dat enkele maanden geleden gelezen in een Belgische krant ("De Morgen" denk ik, maar het kan ook "De Standaard" geweest zijn). Daar beweerden de historici dat Karel de Grote als geschiedkundige figuur door onze twee grote buurlanden afgesnoept was. Als u kijkt naar zijn (voor)ouders, dan stammen die allemaal af van wat nu Brabant of Limburg genoemd wordt. Het zijn pas de nakomelingen die de 'Duitse' en 'Franse' gebieden op de kaart zetten. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 16:23:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:23:38 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Customs" 2002.10.10 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Himmel Brief Hi all! Thanks to Luc Ron, Marco, Floor, Gabrielle and others for your great responses to my enquiries about lowland cat talk and Afrikaans! New topic - my maternal grandfather said that in his youth many German speaking families in rural Ontario put up framed embroidered - sometimes decorated - prayers they called Himmels Briefs - letters to heaven. He recalled these were sometimes composed in dialect - often the only time Platt or "Pennsylvania Dutch" would be seen written. I myself have seen whole ballads of a religious caste such as "La Plainte Du Juif Errant" (Lament of the Wandering Jew) and "La Passion de Jesus Christ" ("Passion" meaning sufferings) similarly displayed in farmhouse parlours in rural Quebec. Do other lowlanders have similar examples to share? I believe some of the Huguenot relatives of my father's family also followed this practice in Holland. Alle die beste George M. Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 16:28:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:28:21 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.10 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (06) [E/Z] I read that I am supposed to be the author of the following: > From: Marco Evenhuis > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] > > Gabriele Kahn wrote: > > Actually, the "Rommelpot" is a Dutch tradition as well. There's a song > that > > goes with it: (...) > We in "Zeêland", especially in Zuid-Beveland use exactly the same song, but > then we say "koenkelpot " in stead of "Rommelpot". It was used on the > evening before newyearsday. As you can see in a column I wrote in Zeêlandic > for a local newspaper: etc. Just like the message posted under language varieties about Charlemagne speaking Frankish, I was not the author! Margot van Baalen wrote this piece about the _koenkelpot_, a custom that was once known through- out Zeeland, but is now only in use in some villages on the former island of Zuid-Beveland. regards, Marco --------- From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (03) [E/LS] > From: Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) > > Ansgar Fehnker, I'm quite surprised that there is no St. Martins tradition > in Teglingen as that place is only 30 km away from Wippingen. The other > customs in the Meppen area are almost the same except for "Pinksterblömken" > which is unknown here in Northern Emsland and Hümmling. Maybe you can tell > about that. I would like to know if the custom of "Pinksterblömken" is still > alive there. In the village of Schwefingen, where my mother was born, this > tradition has died in the 1960s. However, I think that it still exists in > the Haselünne region. Frankly, I wouldn't know what a "Pinksterblömken" is. Regarding the St Martin tradition I would guess that keeping this kind of traditions alive depends also on individuals who take the responsibility. When I grew up in the late 70's we also didn't do the ususal "three kings singing". Later, when I was involved in the church youth group, there was somebody to took the lead, and organized the "three kings singing" again. And it was fun. So, what is a Pinksterblömken? Ansgar ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 16:49:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:49:28 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.10 (03) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Swanepoels Subject: Afrikaans John le Grange, Heerlik om van 'n oud-Zimbabweër te hoor hier op LL-L. Net soos Marco wil ek graag van jou die verskille tussen Afrikaans en Afrikaans in Zim. hoor / sien. Miskien idiomatiek / uitspraak / eienaardighede wat betref groetgewoontes / kleinpraatjies soos oor die geduldige onderwerp van die weer ens.?? I am intrigued by this wonderful new source of instant knowledge and interaction. How remarkably close are all our languages, sometimes even in spite of being removed literally thousands of miles from the origin. Hoop om gou van jou te hoor John. Susan [Swanepoel] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Afrikaans Susan, John en andere Laaglanders, > Net soos Marco wil ek graag van jou die verskille tussen Afrikaans en Afrikaans in Zim. hoor / > sien. Miskien idiomatiek / uitspraak / eienaardighede wat betref groetgewoontes / kleinpraatjies > soos oor die geduldige onderwerp van die weer ens.?? Ek ook! Miskien ook 'n korte inleiding ("sub-blurb") tot Zimbabwe-Afrikaans voor "Lowland Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/)? Ons het ook nog 'n hoofinleiding ("main blurb") vir "Afrikaans" (algemeen) nodig. Het ons een of twee vrywilligers? (Of is dit te gretig om te vra?) Groetjies! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 17:19:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:19:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.10 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Lowlanders, I am sure quite a few of you would be interested in the following website with background information for glossophiles like us (despite the unfortunate, superceded German name "Indogermanisch"): http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/didact2.htm Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 17:22:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:22:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: What dialect do they speak in the far northeast of Germany? Lowlanders, Hello, Lowlanders and highlanders alike, I had a question for the list. What dialect is spoken in far northeastern Germany? How does it look? What is it called? What state speaks it? Thanks. Manfisher ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 21:33:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:33:51 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.10 (06) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.10 (02) [E] > From: Ansgar Fehnker > Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (03) [E/LS] > >> From: Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) >> >> Ansgar Fehnker, I'm quite surprised that there is no St. Martins >> tradition >> in Teglingen as that place is only 30 km away from Wippingen. The >> other >> customs in the Meppen area are almost the same except for > "Pinksterblömken" >> which is unknown here in Northern Emsland and Hümmling. Maybe you can >> tell >> about that. I would like to know if the custom of "Pinksterblömken" is > still >> alive there. In the village of Schwefingen, where my mother was born, >> this >> tradition has died in the 1960s. However, I think that it still >> exists in >> the Haselünne region. > > Frankly, I wouldn't know what a "Pinksterblömken" is. Regarding the St > Martin tradition I would guess that keeping this kind of traditions > alive depends also on individuals who take the responsibility. When I > grew up in the late 70's we also didn't do the ususal "three kings > singing". Later, when I was involved in the church youth group, there > was somebody to took the lead, and organized the "three kings singing" > again. And it was fun. > > So, what is a Pinksterblömken? > > Ansgar Dear Ansgar, In Dutch: "Een pinksterbloem", is een bloem die rond de tijd van Pinksteren bloeit.Het wordt ook wel veldkers of koekoeksbloem of geel lis genoemd. Dit is de letterlijke betekenis. Een pinksterbloem is ook een jong meisje dat met bloemen en sieraden getooid werd en op Pinksteren rondgedragen of rondgeleid. Daarbij werd gezongen en geld ingezameld.Dat meisje werd ook de pinksterbruid genoemd. Nu betekent het ook nog iemand die zich in het nieuw steekt met Pinksteren. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Festivities In many parts of Europe, including much of the Germanic-speaking area, Christian Whitsun ~ Pentecost replaced various types of pre-Christian fertility and courtship festivities. In the Middle Ages, this was the time for "goin' courtin'," involving all sorts of rituals, some less mentionable than dancing. In many traditions it involved also the maypole (which can be found thoughout Eurasia, as far as Eastern Central Asia), whose shamanist symbolism is that of both fertility (Need I explain?)and connection between earth and heaven (thus, a rather Tantric approach). (A glimpse at the medieval goings-on is offered for instance in the section "Uf dem anger" [On the Meadow] in the _Carmina Burana_, a medieval Latin-French-German song cycle made famous by the composer Carl Orff. See here for the words and their translation: http://www.mgeurts.tmfweb.nl/carmlyr.htm) In Germany, including Northern, Lowlands Germany, Whitsuntide celebrates the height of spring (formerly as the beginning of Summer, or Midsummer), which nowadays is still marked by way of special flower decoration in home and church. In some areas' folk customs some remnants of the old courtship/fertility rituals survive in fragments. (Among the Slavonic Sorbs of Germany, this has been distributed over the customs of "Easter Riding," "Birds' Wedding," and the like, involving round-dances, wedding-like celebrations and a custom in which the unmarried men build flower-decorated bowers or gazebos for the unmarried women to meet in and sing while being watched/chosen by potential suitors.) What Zintus and Luc referred to is no doubt a part of all that. What exactly the people of the northwest do, I do not know. In some parts of Germany there are celebrations revolving around a "Whitsun Bride" (_Pfingstbraut_, or _Pünkösdikirálynõ_ "Whitsun Queen" as in Hungary) and a "Whitsun King" (Pfingstkönig), and bunches of flower-bearing maidens. A very nice overview of it is provided here (in German): http://www.religioeses-brauchtum.de/sommer/pfingsten.html Similar customs survive in Scandinavia, Britain and throughout Eastern Europe (e.g., http://www.dailyastorian.com/Scandi/History.html, http://www.headmap.com/book/words/thegoldenbough/19.html, http://www.cyberwitch.com/wychwood/Temple/midsummer.htm). Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 22:19:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:19:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (05) [E] Sorry, Marco, for the misquote. With the quotes-in-quotes-in-quotes in some ll-listings it´s easy to make mistakes. Cheers to all, Mike Wintzer ----- Original Message ----- > Het citaat dat Mike noemt, is niet van mij afkomstig. > > regards/groetjes, > > Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 23:36:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:36:28 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (05) [E] Ben, This is a harder question than you might think to answer. After the end of the Second World War, Eastern Germany was cut off and given to Poland. The population was resettled, many in northwestern Germany. The old north Eastern Germany was called Prussia (West and East) and in most of the Baltic coast part of it a form of Platt - rather similar to other north German dialects was spoken. What is nowadays called east Germany (which I think you were asking about) is historically considered mid Germany. the northeastern corner of it is part of Pomerania, where a Platt dialect is also spoken. The term Platt or Plaut means "flat" not because of its intonation - but because this was the obvious difference between the northern German lands and the mountainous south. Platt dialects did not undergo the great consonant shift which made Hoch Deutsch - standard German - so different from our Lowland tongues. For example Wasser in Hoch - water in English. On the other hand, Platt dialects did not undergo the great vowel shift which made English sound so different from other Germanic tongues. e.g. English "make" once sounded more like "mock" - much closer to the vowel sound in Platt dialects today. No standard Platt dialect ever emerged, and so there is a gradual change from place to place in the local speech as you go from west to east across northern Germany - but if you go south you will suddenly notice a sharp change where the great consonant shift takes hold. The dialects spoken between France and Poland south of Denmark and north of Cologne (roughly) thus mostly preserve a much older pronunciation - closer to the English of the middle ages which you may have heard in reconstructions of the original speech in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. The same is true of braid (broad) Scots - in which, for example the "ch" in nicht is pronounced as the "gh" in English night was in the Middle Ages. (Compare German "nacht") Pomerania was Baltic and Slavic before being Germanized and so their local dialects will show some of these influences as well. ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (06) [E/Z] Ron wrote in passing: "Flensburg (now unfortunately the northernmost city in which Lowlands Saxon [Low German] is used)" Ron, do I take it that L-S was formerly spoken North of the present "national boundary"? My ignorance must seem even more appalling if I confess to having spent my school years in Rendsburg, less than 100km from the border. In those days we sold "Bausteine" in support of the "Deutschtum in Nord- Schleswig". And I (we) believed it, til today. Who was there (in the early 50s) to tell us otherwise? Not even the existence of L-S was ever mentioned in school (although it was still spoken all around us, it was the "Bauerndialekt", the despised "platt"). This demonstrates the ethnocidic charakter of the mandatory "national" school systems, the German one in any case. Nevertheless, dear Lowlanders, keep up the spirits and the good work! Mike Wintzer ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Mike, > > "Flensburg (now unfortunately the northernmost city in which > > Lowlands Saxon [Low German] is used)" > Ron, do I take it that L-S was formerly > spoken North of the present "national > boundary"? Well, think about it, Mike. Among the "German" dialects, the "Low German" ones have been the northernmost ones for ages. On much of the peninsula that contains the parts "Hulsteen/Holstein," "Sleswig/Schleswig/Slesvig" and "Jylland" (Jutland), "Germans" and "Danes" have been coexisting in a sort of overlap area, much of which went back and forth between German and Danish rule. Now there is a "German" minority in Denmark and a "Danish" minority in Germany. Would anyone *really* believe that what is now the German-Danish border has always coincided with the northern borderline of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) language? (Recent northward spread is hardly a possibility given that it is rare for underdog languages to enlarge their territory, unless it is through faraway emigration.) The two main populations that originally overlapped in that area were speakers of Lowlands Saxon and Southern Jutish (considered Danish dialects by most in Denmark). From what I read and hear, I gather there was a fair degree of intermingling and mutual language adoption. (Someone -- I forgot who -- wrote a book about "Low German on Danish substrate.) Sure, "High"-German-speakers and Standard Danish speakers have been among them for a long time, especially in the upper echelon. As I understand it, the deathknell came with official partition at today's border after World War II. In the mutual agreement there was only talk of "Danish" and "German" language rights for the respective minorities, consistent with the official ethnic labels. Thus, the suppression, low prestige and disregard of Lowlands Saxon in Germany came to extend to Denmark, in administration, schools, churches, media, etc. What survival chance do you think a language has that is "minority within minority"? I do not know what the state of affairs is for Southern Jutish in Germany these days, but I assume it is not good either, although I have been told that there are still speakers of it, even occasional radio blurbs. I hardly think it is appropriate to point the finger at Denmark (though I still wonder why North Frisian died out there -- perhaps for the same reason?). The traditional pattern is a general one, certainly in Europe: national label > ethnic label > language assignment -- the basic assumptions being based on the ideal that nation, ethnicity and language should be one, that diversity is an inconvenience rather than a blessing. Ben: George's description (above) is right on the money. The dialects are the West Pomeranian ones of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), used in the eastern part of the state of Mecklenburg-Western-Pomerania (German _Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_, LS _Mekelnborg-Vörpommern_), up to today's Polish border, east of which East Pomeranian (or West Prussian) and East Prussian dialects used to be used. West Pomeranian dialects have some of the typically eastern (Slavic-substrate) characteristics, albeit less pronounced than farther east. In most of them, _ö_ and _ü_ survive, while farther east they become _e_ and _i_ repectively. Also, most dialects of that area do not have the eastern shift _g_ > _j_. One Slavonic characteristic is the diminutive suffix _-ing_ or _-ink_ (< _-inke_ < _-inka_), e.g., _Grötting_ 'grampa', but also German-influenced _Großmurrer_, as in the dialect of Stralsund (http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/probe05.htm): As ik noch 'n lütt'n Jung'n wer, türfte ich an jäidn Sommer norn Land gorn. Mihn Grötting nähm mi dormals opp. Dat wiä de Tiit as wi noch in äers'n Kriich wiern. Dor geff dat noch Boller, dor wier ne Kouh, dor haat wii wat to drinkn - all dat watt wi to Huus inne Stadt noch nich hebbm däidn, dat fünn' wi bi uns Großmurrer. Unn dor kräign wi dat denn okk. Dor schpäälten wi okk rumm. Mihn Großmurrer kunn üwer haupt bloß Plattdütsch. 'Hochdeutsch' - dat künn se nie. Doovonn verschdoh se nix, datt harr se, as se jung wer, schon ... nich anners mehr liert, unn dor bläif se denn okk. Unn die ganze Familie ümm enn rümm, die wi dor kennen lernen däidn, dee wiä noch àal so ähnlich. Dor käm so por lüdde Mägns, de käm'n dann 'rinn unn schräin dann: "Morräing, kann ikk fütt di jätz, jätz morl ... 'n Schdück Porräing kriegn?" Au' di Morrer däi wiä dann da föör unn säi denn: "Jawohl, Älling gäign, igg gäff di gliik ein Boller Schmolltinken." Schmollt, door wiä mi Morrer nich. Mi Murrer harr edd to häpp mit Schmollt nix ssu dounn, de wiär vörre Boller. Unn dee kräign wii dor denn okk. The most famous writer of Northeastern LS is Fritz Reuter (1810-1874), though his dialect of Stavenhagen might best be considered a southeast Mecklenburg one. Döfft bün ick ok un heww ok Pädings hatt: vir Stück. Un wenn min vir Pädings noch lewten un güngen mit mi äwer de Strat, denn würden de Lüd' still stahn un seggen: "Kikt, wat sünd dat för lange Kirls! Nah so'n Ort kann ein up Stunn'ns lang säuken; dat sünd noch Pädings!" === I was baptized, too, and used to have godfathers -- four of them. And if my godfathers were still alive and would cross the street with me, then people would stop and say, "Look, how tall those fellows are! It would take you quite a while to find this sort these days. That's what I call 'godfathers'!" Low Saxon, in "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 23:56:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:56:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.10 (09) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Swanepoels swanepoels at cmsinter.net Subject: Afrikaanse taal Vir meeste Afrikaanssprekendes is die Nederlandse taal wel "lievelijk" en aangenaam op die oor. Wat my betref, sou ek kon sê dat ek byna verslaaf is daaraan, om iemand goed te hoor Nederlands praat.Dankie Ria, vir jou wonderlike kasette wat ek van tyd tot tyd ontvang, met Nederlands (onverdun) so goed deur jou gepraat, daarop. Sommige van die ouer garde (Suid Afrikaners) het nie 'n affiniteit daarvoor nie, omdat daar in die geskiedenis van die ontwikkeling van die Afrikaanse taal, 'n tydperk was, waar dit deur middel van wetgewing, op die jong Afrikanervolk afgevorseer was. Die kinders op skool (en ook in die kerk) mog destyds net Nederlands lees of skryf, ten spyte van die feit dat die jong Afrikaanse taal, hul huistaal was. Die nuwe /latere geslagte word geensins hierdeur beïnvloed nie en geniet dit sonder voorbehoud (d.w.s. die "glossophiles" onder hulle). Daar is ook wonderlike dialekte in Suid Afrika, wat streeksgebonde is, en ontwikkel het vanuit die kleurvolle verskeidenheid kulture. 'n Fees vir die oor en die hart. Kosbare kleinode. Nog 'n paar idiome / uitdrukkings wat vanuit die ryk dierelewe van Afrika geïnspireer is en waarby John moontlik kan aanlas: Hy kan nie hond haaraf maak nie (he can not convince someone to change their mind / he can not succeed) Hy is vol jakkalsstreke (he is very sly) Jakkals trou met wolf se vrou (said when it is actually raining, while the sun is still shining) Hy het nie al sy varkies op hok nie (he is crazy) Interessant sou wees as iemand 'n paar Nederlandse eweknieë sou instuur ter vergelyking. Groetjies Susan vanuit Michigan [Susan Swanepoel] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 16:29:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:29:40 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.11 (01) [A/D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.10 (09) [A] > From: Swanepoels swanepoels at cmsinter.net > Subject: Afrikaanse taal > > Nog 'n paar idiome / uitdrukkings wat vanuit die ryk dierelewe van > Afrika > geïnspireer is en waarby John moontlik kan aanlas: > Hy kan nie hond haaraf maak nie (he can not convince someone to change > their > mind / he can not succeed) > Hy is vol jakkalsstreke (he is very sly) > Jakkals trou met wolf se vrou (said when it is actually raining, while > the > sun is still shining) > Hy het nie al sy varkies op hok nie (he is crazy) > Interessant sou wees as iemand 'n paar Nederlandse eweknieë sou > instuur ter > vergelyking. > Groetjies > Susan vanuit Michigan > > [Susan Swanepoel] Beste Susan (Swanepoel is in onze streken een relatief veel voorkomende naam), Hieronder vind je enkele uitdrukkingen of zegswijzen over honden in het West-Vlaams. Men zou der geên hond deurejaog'n (slecht weer) Die hond is, moet beên knaog'n (Wie arm is, moet het verdragen) Voor hond en hazewind loôp'n (rondzwerven) Hoe nader den hond hoe nader de bete (niet te familiair zijn met de baas want je kan rap in ongenade vallen) Overeênkomm' lijk katt'n en hond'n (altijd ruzie maken) Met onwillige hond'n kan men geên hoaz'n vang'n(Met iemand die altijd dwars ligt, kan men niet veel aanvangen) Lik nen hond van zijnen stront (Veel te vlug met iets stoppen) En hier enkele in het Nederlands: Zo moe als een hond (uitgeput zijn) Er was geen hond te zien (Er was niemand) Zo ziek als een hond (heel ziek) Als men een hond wil slaan, kan men vlug een stok vinden (Er is vlug iets gevonden om iemand kwaad te doen) Dode honden bijten niet (Wie dood is, kan je niets meer doen). Blaffende honden bijten niet (Men moet niet zo bang zijn van iemand die altijd maar dreigt) Als twee honden vechten om een been,loopt een derde ermee heen (Van onenigheid tussen 2 personen profiteert soms een derde) Twee kwade honden bijten elkaar niet (dief en diefjesvriend) De hond in de pot vinden (Komen als het eten op is) Van de stoker zijn hond gebeten zijn (graag sterke drank of bier drinken) Op iets staan kijken als een hond op een zieke koe(beteuterd staan kijken) Komt men over de hond, dan komt men ook over de staart (Als men iets heel moeilijks verwezenlijkt heeft, zal het andere ook wel lukken) En er zijn er nog wel hoor! Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene (België) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica And here a few expressions involving dogs in Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Hund [hU.nt] 'dog' (masc., plural _Hunnen_ [hU.n:]) - 'n falschen Hund ("a false dog") 'a dishonest person' - Em* schall de Hund wat! ("May the dog [do] something [to] him* ") 'Damn him!', 'I've had it with him!" * ~ ehr 'her', jüm 'them' - up (d)'n Hund kamen ("to come/get onto a/the dog") 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)' - vör de Hunnen gahn ("to go before/in front of the dogs") 'to go to the dogs', 'to go to hell in a handbasket' (= 'to get bad/rundown') - Daar liggt de Hund begraven. ("That's where the dog lies buried.") 'That's the (fundamental) point/cause/problem.' Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 18:04:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:04:23 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.11 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, (1) Since I sent you the last administrative message a week ago, we have been able to welcome a few new members, and they joined us from the following places: Australia: Victoria: Harcourt [1] Melbourne [1] Brazil: São Paolo: Santos [1] ? [1] Finland: Itä-Uusimaa: Kerava [1] Korea: Kyönggi-do: Seoul [1] Philippines: Cavite: Rosario [1] United Kingdom: Scotland: Aberdeenshire: Aberdeen [1] United States of America: Arizona: Scottsdale [1] Illinois: Chicago [1] Mississippi: Hattiesburg [1] Tennessee: Kodak [1] ? [1] (2) It is very important that all of you are familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). The following rules in particular tend to be ignored: Keep subjects separate: Do not submit a single posting in which more than one topic is discussed. ("Topic" equals "subject line".) This also applies when you respond to other people's postings. Edit quotes: When you reply to what someone else has written, don't just hit the reply button and write your reply before or after the quoted text. Edit out whatever is not essential, most definitely the Lowlands-L masthead and footer. (They are going to stay, for good reasons.) Also, don't do what some do: they follow this rule nicely until they run out of things to say, and then they let the rest of the quoted text dangle behind their "signature." Give credit: Don't forget to say who the writer of the text is to which you are responding. (When you hit the reply button your system most likely credits the administrator or "Lowlands-L," the sender, even if they did not write it.) Identify yourself: Anonymous postings are not permitted and will be ignored if anonymous submissions keep being sent despite a warning. Readers must be able to see who wrote a posting. Many people use automatic "signatures;" they are great, as long as they are not attached. (No attachments allowed!) Otherwise, your name must appear either with your email address or at the end of your contribution. It is all right to have your surname appear in one place and your given name in another place within the same posting. (3) As I already stressed in one of my replies to Susan Swanepoel (in Afrikaans), many members may have favorites among the language and culture varieties with which we deal here, but there are no favorites or lesser liked ones as far as Lowlands-L as a whole is concerned. All varieties are to be given equal opportunity and respect and are never to me greeted with expressions of scorn or disapproval. This list is not about specific languages and cultures as much as about their common base, and our mission is to cherish not only the similarities but also the differences between them. (4) I would like to remind you of "Lowlands Talk," our evolving companion series of introductions to the Lowlands language varieties: http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/ You can get to it via our homepage (http://www.lowlands-l.net) as well. Some of the writing and translation projects have not yet begun and others are underway but are not yet published. If you wish to help, and I hope you do, please write to me at sassisch at yahoo.com, and I will let you know with which of the projects we still need help. You are also most welcome to write introductions to more specific dialects or dialect groups, which would be listed under the languages to which they belong. These "sub-blurbs" do not need to follow any specific format and style, as long as they are brief. They do not need to be highly scientific in style and substance. Please bear in mind that this series is aimed at as wide a readership as possible. (5) Please send your posting submissions to the posting address (lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org). If you need to write to me regarding List business (such as subscription), please contact me at the administrative address (admin at lowlands-l.net). If you wish to write to me privately, please use my private address (sassisch at yahoo.com). With friendly regards, Reinhard "Ron" Hahn Lowlands-L ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 19:44:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:44:44 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.11 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: denis dujardin Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.11 (01) [A/D/E] Not to forget: " ie zoe meegoan mè ne hon' mè ne hoe' " (hij zou meegaan met een hond met een hoed) typische Kortrijkse (Zuid-West-Vlaanderen) uitspraak typical expression for Kortrijk (South-West-Flanders) d-apokope meaning: whenever he meets someone unknown, he feels invited to go with him. denis dujardin kortrijk Flanders ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica Here's another Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dog saying: bekannt as de bunte Hund ("(well-)known as/like the multicolored dog") 'to be know all over the place' Usually this has a negative or jocular connotation, such "known by every Tom, Dick and Harry (for something)" or "known for making a public spectacle of oneself." The general idea is that someone is known everywhere for something that is not exactly reputable or comfortable. It can also mean "to stick out;" e.g., _Dat bring ik beter mit mien Schrieversnaam ünner de Lüüd'; anners warr ik bekannt as de bunte Hund._ 'I'd better publish it under my _nom de plume_, or else I'd get "known like the multicolored dog."' ("High") German has the equivalent _bekannt wie ein bunter Hund_ ("known like a multicolored dog"), with an indefinite article rather than a definite one. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 20:02:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:02:52 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.11 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Dear Lowlanders, Lately we have not heard a lot about or in Appalachian, but quite a few subscribers who joined us during the past few weeks have been expressing an interest in it in their subscription applications. In the past it was mostly our good Father Andreas (Richard Turner) who held up the Appalachian flag. Fortunately, he just rejoined us after a period of absence (during which I surely was not the only one who missed him). I encourage interested Lowlanders to start including Appalachian again, or any other rarely mentioned variety for that matter. If you are only in a receptive mode, please express your curiosity and interest by posting requests or questions to that effect. Also, we included Appalachian in its own right in "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/) and would be grateful to anyone or to any team of subscribers for writing an introductory piece. Please bear in mind that there is a good deal of interest in Appalachian, not only among our members but, judging by email messages I receive, in the general public as well, not only in North America but all over the world. Please remember that Lowlands-L is what its members make it, and that some things don't happen unless we make them happen. Friendly regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 23:00:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:00:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.11 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.11 (04) [E] Fellow Lowlanders/Appalachian Highlanders, Hi! Old ballads are a wonderful linguistic gold mine. In the late 1800s James Francis Child published a classic collection of traditional English and Scots ballads (narrative songs) now known as the Child Ballads. Collectors such as Cecil Sharpe published dozens of versions of these from England and Appalachia early in the twentieth centuries, and in the 1960s professor Bertrand Bronson of Berkeley published several volumes of those which had been collected together with their melodies. Jean Ritchie did a 2 album set of her family's Child Ballad versions from eastern Kentucky for Folkways Records - still available from the Smithsonian Institute on tape. The School of Scottish Studies has produced an album of them and a number of performers from the 60s folk revival such as the Corries, Jean Redpath and Ewan McColl in Scotland, Maddy Prior and Steeleye Span in England and Peggy Seeger, Hedy West, and Custer La Rue in America have recorded many wonderful Child Ballad versions. The old English Topic Label is a great source for them , and at least a few years ago actual field recordings or tapes of them were available from the Library of Congress collection. A huge collection of traditional folk songs sung by the ordinary folk of the British Isles is now available on cd for anyone who wants to hear real dialects this is the pace. The series is called "The Voice of the People" and is on the Topic label. There are dozens of artists who have recorded Child Ballad variants as part oft heir repertoire - but only a few have made it a major focus. (Early Joan Baez records, for example) Ballads often preserve old language and old folklore - for example old Appalachian expressions such as "down in yanders holler" or remote pronunciations such as "He stobbed her to the hort" even sometimes preserving Scottish words needed to sustain the rhyme such as "dee" for die in some versions of Mary Hamilton. One of my favourites comes from a version of Little Musgrove in North Carolina called "Mattie Groves" Get up from their you naked man Get up put on some clothes For I won't have it said in the North Scotland That a naked man I slow (for slew) or a phonetic reading of one verse of the popular bluegrass song "Rabbit In the Log" would come out: There's a rabbit in the log and I ain't got no dog How will I git him? I know I'll git me a braar (for briar) and twist in his haar (for hair) And thet way I'll git him I know. In the Ballad Sir Lionel (known in North America as Old Bangham) a witch and a magic boar figure along with pagan tree lore and sacrifice - including the fascinating line: "Old Bangham drew his wooden knife and twined that wild boar of its life" this after the wild boar heard his horn on "temple hill" and came with such a crash that he "broke down both oak and ash" some scholars have suggested the wooden knife - a strange choice - is really a Woden knife. Other amazing archaisms that show up include heretical elements from what appears to be an underground stream of folk Christianity - perhaps Gnostic? So, in one of Jean Ritchie's ballads the enquiry is made "Are you the Queen of Heaven she asked - or are you the Mary Magdalene come to pardon all our sins?" One interesting note on the language of ballads - as different dialects came into contact - sometimes different versions of the same word would coexist in the same text! - such as law and laigh for low in Scots. Poets always liked a good rhyme better than linguistic purity it seems. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 12 16:15:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:15:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.12 (01) [Ap/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Songs" > From: George M Gibault > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.11 (04) [E] > > One interesting note on the language of ballads - as different dialects > came into contact - sometimes different versions of the same word would > coexist in the same text! - such as law and laigh for low in Scots. Poets > always liked a good rhyme better than linguistic purity it seems. While I agree that Scots poets are too easily seduced into using inapproriate (usually English) words to get rhymes (you can read my not-too-serious essay "A Caa it Macaroni" on the subject at http://www.fleimin.demon.co.uk/Bletherskite/Bletherskite.htm ), I would use both "law" and "laich" in speech. At least in my dialect, "laich" tends to be used when something is unexpectedly low, such as a body of water in a dry season. Of course, "law" has an alternative meaning, that of a prominent hill, usually isolated, hill, a common feature of Lowland Scottish topography. Here's a typical Border tale of revenge. JAMIE TELFER IN THE FAIR DODHEID I IT fell aboot the Martinmas tyde, When our Border steeds get corn and hay, The Captain o Bewcastle bound him to ryde, And he's ower to Tividale to drive a prey. II The first ae guide that they met wi, It was hiegh up in Hardhauchswire; The second guide that they met wi, It was laich doun in Borthwick water. III 'What tidins, what tidins, my trusty guide?'- 'Nae tidins, nae tidins, I hae to thee; But gin ye'll gae to the fair Dodheid, Mony a cou's cauf I'll let thee see.' IV And when they cam to the fair Dodheid, Richt hastily they clam the peel; They lowsed the kye oot, ane and a', And ranshackled the hoose richt weel. V Nou Jamie Telfer's hert was sair, The tear aye rowin in his ee; He pled wi the Captain to hae his gear, Or else revenged he wad be. VI The Captain turned him round and leuch; Said- 'Man, there's naething in thy hoose, But ae auld sword without a sheath, That hardly nou wad fell a moose.' VII The sun wasna up, but the muin was doun, It was the grymin o a new-fa'n snaw, Jamie Telfer has run ten myles a-fit, Between the Dodheid and the Stobs's Ha'. VIII And when he cam to the fair touer-yate, He shouted loud, and cried weel hie, Till oot bespak auld Gibby Elliot- 'Whae's this that brings the fraye to me?'- IX 'It's I, Jamie Telfer in the fair Dodheid, And a harried man I think I be! There's naething left at the fair Dodheid, But a waefu wife and bairnies three.' X 'Gae seek your succour at Branksome Ha', For succour ye'se get nane frae me! Gae seek your succour where ye paid black-mail, For, man, ye ne'er paid money to me.'- XI Jamie has turned him round aboot, I wat the tear blinded his ee- 'I'll ne'er pay mail to Elliot again, And the fair Dodheid I'll never see. XII 'My hounds may a' rin masterless, My hawks may fly frae tree to tree, My lord may grip my vassal lands, For there again maun I never be!'- XIII He has turn'd him to the Tiviot-side, een as fast as he could drie, Till he cam to the Coultart Cleuch, And there he shouted baith loud and hie. XIV Then up bespak him auld Jock Grieve, 'Whae's this that brings the fraye to me?'- 'It's I, Jamie Telfer in the fair Dodheid, A harried man I trew I be. XV 'There's naething left in the fair Dodheid, But a greetin wife and bairnies three, And sax puir ca's stand in the sta', A' routin loud for their minnie.'- XVI 'Alack a wae!' qo auld Jock Grieve, 'Alack! my hert is sair for thee! For I was married on the elder sister, And you on the youngest o a' the three.' XVII Then he has taen oot a bonny black, Was richt weel fed wi corn and hay, And he's set Jamie Telfer on his back, To the Catslockhill to tak the fraye. XVIII And whan he cam to the Catslockhill, He shouted loud, and cried weel hie, Till oot and spak him William's Wat, 'O whae's this brings the fraye to me?'- XIX 'It's I, Jamie Telfer in the fair Dodheid, A harried man I think I be! The Captain o Bewcastle has driven my gear; For God's sake rise, and succour me!'- XX 'Alas for wae!' qo William's Wat, 'Alack, for thee my hert is sair! I never cam by the fair Dodheid, That ever I fand thy basket bare.' XXI He's set his twa sons on coal-black steeds, Himsell upon a freckled gray, And they are on wi Jamie Telfer, To Branksome Ha' to tak the fraye. XXII And when they cam to Branksome Ha', They shouted a' baith loud and hie, Till up and spak him auld Buccleuch, Said, 'Whae's this brings the fraye to me?'- XXIII 'It's I, Jamie Telfer in the fair Dodheid, And a harried man I think I be! There's nocht left in the fair Dodheid, But a greetin wife and bairnies three.'- XXIV 'Alack for wae!' qo the gude auld lord, 'And ever my hert is wae for thee! But fye gar cry on Willie, my son, And see that he come to me speedilie! XXV 'Gar warn the water, braid and wide, Gar warn it sune and hastilie! They that winna ride for Telfer's kye, Let them never leuk in the face o me! XXVI 'Warn Wat o Harden, and his sons, Wi them will Borthwick Water ride; Warn Gaudilands, and Allanhauch, And Gilmanscleuch, and Commonside. XXVII 'Ride by the gate at Priesthauchswire, And warn the Currors o the Lee; As ye cum doun the Hermitage Slack, Warn dochty Willie o Gorrinberry.' XXVIII The Scotts they rade, the Scotts they ran, Sae starkly and sae steadilie! And aye the ower-word o the thrang Was-'Rise for Branksome readilie!' XXIX The gear was driven the Frostylee up, Frae the Frostylee unto the plain, Whan Willie has leuk'd his men before, And saw the kye richt fast drivand. XXX 'Whae drives thir kye?' 'gan Willie say, 'To make an ootspeckle o me?'- 'It's I, the Captain o Bewcastle, Willie; I winna layne my name for thee.'- XXXI 'O will ye let Telfer's kye gae back? Or will ye do ocht for regard o me? Or, by the faith o my body,' qo Willie Scott, I'se ware my dame's cauf skin on thee!'- XXXII 'I winna let the kye gae back, Neither for thy love, nor yet thy fear; But I will drive Jamie Telfer's kye, In spite o every Scott that's here.'- XXXIII 'Set on them, lads!' qo Willie than; 'Fye, lads, set on them cruellie! For ere they win to the Ritterford, Mony a tuim saddle there sall be!' XXXIV Then till't they gaed wi hert and hand, The blows fell thick as bickerin hail; And mony a horse ran masterless, And mony a comely cheek was pale. XXXV But Willie was stricken ower the heid, And throu the knapscap the sword has gane; And Harden grat for very rage, Whan Willie on the grund lay slane. XXXVI But he's taen aff his gude steel cap, And thrice he's waved it in the air- The Dinlay snaw was ne'er mair white Nor the lyart locks o Harden's hair. XXXVII 'Revenge! revenge!' auld Wat 'gan cry; 'Fye, lads, lay on them cruellie! We'll ne'er see Tiviot-side again, Or Willie's daith revenged sall be.' XXXVIII O mony a horse ran masterless, The splinter'd lances flew on hie; But or they wan to the Kershope ford, The Scotts had gotten the victory. XXXIX John o Bricham there was slane, And John o Barlow, as I heard say; And thirty mae o the Captain's men Lay bleedin on the grund that day XL The Captain was run throu the thick o the thie, And broken was his richt leg-bane; If he had lived this hundred years, He had never been loed by woman again. XLI 'Hae back the kye!' the Captain said; 'Dear kye, I trew, to some they be! For gin I suld live a hundred years, There will ne'er fair lady smile on me.' XLII Then word is gane to the Captain's bride, Even in the bower where that she lay, That her lord was prisoner in enemy's land, Since into Tividale he had led the way. XLIII 'I wad lourd have had a windin-sheet, And helped to put it ower his heid, Ere he had been disgraced by the Border Scot, Whan he ower Liddel his men did lead!' XLIV There was a wild gallant amang us a', His name was Watty wi the Wudspurs, Cried - 'On for his hoose in Stanegirthside, If ony man will ride wi us!' XLV When they cam to the Stanegirthside, They dang wi trees, and burst the door; They lowsed oot a' the Captain's kye, And set them forth oor lads before. XLVI There was an auid wyfe ayont the fire, A wee bit o the Captain's kin- 'Whae dar lowse oot the Captain's kye Or answer to him and his men?'- XLVII 'It's I, Watty Wudspurs, lowse the kye, I winna layne my name frae thee! And I will lowse oot the Captain's kye, In scorn o a' his men and he.' XLVIII Whan they cam to the fair Dodheid, They were a wellcum sicht to see! For instead o his ain ten milk kye, Jamie Telfer has gotten thirty and three. XLIX And he has paid the rescue shot, Baith wi gowd and white monie; And at the burial o Willie Scott, I wat was mony a weepin ee. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.11 (05) [E] Hey, Mr Gibault an aw yuins. How be yuins up er out yander? We'er aw fine down hyir, thankee. Oh, we aw got the hay fever, but hit's seasonable. Hit is a-tarnin a mite airish of a night, now, so we won't be a-sneezin fer much longer. Hit'll kill 'at ol rag-weed off. A sung Ol Bang'em right smart, man an boy fer more years 'an a coon's got, an neer hyird tell o ought tae do wi no oak nor ash (nor thorn neither, gin ye was a-wonderin). Ol Bang'em will ye huntin ride? Dillum down dillum. Ol Bang'em will ye huntin ride? Dillum down. Ol Bang'em will ye huntin ride Wi a sword an a pistol ba yir side? Kubee kee! Killy Killy Cum, Kubee Quo Quam. (An folk says we ain't got no Latin!) They lived a wild boar in the wuid/ at'd break men's bones an drank ther blud. Ol Bang'em tuk his wooden knife/ an swore ba Gum at he'd take hit's life. Wal they fit aw day an they fit aw night/ till the staurs an the moon fled fum the sight. Ol Bang'em did ye win er lose?/ Wal, he swore ba Gum at he'd won his shoes. No sight o no temple hill, neither. Probly comes o poverty or the Babtists a-runnin 'em off. As fer Gnostics an sech, they warn't but one in Newport, Tennessee, some time back an he went Orthodox atter he hyird ma preachin one Pentecost five er six year agone. We got 'im fer a hierodeacon, now, an a more Orthodox feller ye neer seen. No lie. A am right happy tae be back, an aw. A'm proud yuins indulge or at least abide me. An come on, ye ridge-runners, an write yuins a piece! Yorn, Fr Andreas (Richard Turner) ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: "Songs" 2002.10.11 (05) [E] On Friday 11 October 2002 17:00, George M Gibault wrote: > A huge collection of traditional folk songs sung by the ordinary ?folk of > the British Isles is now available on cd for anyone who wants to hear real > dialects this is the pace. Somewhat apropos, the recent film, Songcatcher, is a fictionalized account of a woman's attempt to capture the traditional songs. Janet McTeer overplays a bit, but the some of the performances are well worth seeing. bob bowman ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 12 16:30:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:30:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.12 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Subject: Appalachian and Scots (E) Dear Users, I've just signed in to this mailing list, which I hope I will never leave. Also, I have had the chance (with Lowlands-L) to know all these wonderful dialects from the Lowlands. I have become fond of the Appalachian and Scots dialects and I will start seeking texts, poems, songs and anything that might be of interest and finally, post links (if that is allowed*) so that, everyone, especially, the new ones* (just like me) could get into the ''spirit'' . I have been searching for songs in Scots and I've found a Rock/Punk band, which I believe comes from Scotland and seems to perform some of its songs in the Scots dialect. The band is: The Real McKenzies. The following song has been found: Scots Wha' ha'e. Since I'm brand new to these dialects, I would apologise if I did any mistake by mentioning that band/song as a Scots work. (In case it is not in Scots) I've found, also, this link that is all about Scots, sounds and texts. I would recommend, especially, to the new subscribers who have never had contact with such nice dialect. http://www.electricscotland.com/si/features/scots/index.htm I will soon come up with more links, including links related to the Appalachian dialect. Does anybody know other links? Anything that you might want to share is welcome! Have a nice weekend! Reynaldo Damy Castro ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Welcome, and thank you for your first posting, Reynaldo, also to you, Bob (Bowman)! Thank you also for joining the Lowlands Talk Team (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/), Reynaldo! I will be back in touch with you privately as soon as I'll get a chance. It is a delight to have an enthusiastic young person like you join LL-L and the project all the way from Brazil. Your posting reminded me that we ought to have a special online resource guide for Appalachian, also an offline resource guide. So any help with that would be most welcome. Of course, we ought to keep expanding the existing guides. I just added Colin Wilson's brand-new Scots textbook (the first ever, and with audio-CDs!) to the Scots offline resource guide, and my own copy is on its way from Scotland as we "speak." I can't wait to get it. Keep up your interests, and keep following your passion! Goodwill to all! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 16:29:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:29:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.12 (02) [E] Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro wrote: > I have been searching for songs in Scots and I've found a Rock/Punk band, > which I believe comes from Scotland and seems to perform some of its songs > in the Scots dialect. > > The band is: The Real McKenzies. The following song has been found: Scots > Wha' ha'e. The The Real McKenzies comes fae Canadae. Andy Eagle ---------- From: Florian Lohbrunner Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.12 (02) [E] >I have been searching for >songs in Scots and I've found >a Rock/Punk band, >which I believe comes from >Scotland and seems to perform >some of its songs >in the Scots dialect. > >The band is: The Real >McKenzies. The following song >has been found: Scots >Wha' ha'e. Hi! Actually these guys are Canadians with a strong scottish ancestry. They sing a lot of scottish traditionals although they don't speak Scots. I talked to them on several occasions in Germany and once in Glasgow. They speak Canadian English with more or less Scottish accent (even when being in Scotland). Anyway, a great young band spreading their kind of Scottishness ("Up yer kilts"-on their merchandise T-Shirts) all over the globe :-) Regards, Florian ---------- From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.12 (02) [E] Hello, Lowlanders. If I am putting a link where the cite's authors do not want it to be, then I am extremely sorry. If there are any questions about it, please contact me. Here is a wonderful cite about all varieties of Scots. http://www.scots-online.org. God bless! Ben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Ben, Lowlanders, The site http://www.scots-online.org belongs to no other than our own veteran members Andy Eagle. It is also listed in our online resource guide. Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 16:38:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:38:18 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.13 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] I have continued my inquiries regarding Pfeffernuesse. Several days ago I was with the Shirk family, Pennsylvania Dutch speaking Old Order or Team Mennonites. Mrs. Shirk did indeed have a copy of the cookbook that you mention and the book contained 2 recipes for Pfeffernuesse, but she again stated that she had never eaten them. She was intrigued enough however to consider baking them this year. Perhaps I will be responsible for having started a new Mennonite tradition in this area. As an aside, she pointed out an interesting recipe the book contains for preparing enough food for 175 men for a barn raising. Mrs. Shirk also pointed out that another member of her community that I know, Mark Nolt, came from Canada years ago speaking Plattdeutsch but married locally and now speaks Pennsylvania Dutch. Perhaps I will ask him when I next see him. Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 16:51:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:51:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (03) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (08) [E] Ron, where does this wonderful piece of Stralsundish come from? Mike Wintzer > > > As ik noch 'n lütt'n Jung'n wer, türfte ich an jäidn Sommer norn Land gorn. > Mihn Grötting nähm mi dormals opp. Dat wiä de Tiit as wi noch in äers'n > Kriich wiern. Dor geff dat noch Boller, dor wier ne Kouh, dor haat wii wat > to drinkn - all dat watt wi to Huus inne Stadt noch nich hebbm däidn, dat > fünn' wi bi uns Großmurrer. Unn dor kräign wi dat denn okk. Dor schpäälten > wi okk rumm. Mihn Großmurrer kunn üwer haupt bloß Plattdütsch. > 'Hochdeutsch' - dat künn se nie. Doovonn verschdoh se nix, datt harr se, as > se jung wer, schon ... nich anners mehr liert, unn dor bläif se denn okk. > Unn die ganze Familie ümm enn rümm, die wi dor kennen lernen däidn, dee wiä > noch àal so ähnlich. Dor käm so por lüdde Mägns, de käm'n dann 'rinn unn > schräin dann: "Morräing, kann ikk fütt di jätz, jätz morl ... 'n Schdück > Porräing kriegn?" Au' di Morrer däi wiä dann da föör unn säi denn: "Jawohl, > Älling gäign, igg gäff di gliik ein Boller Schmolltinken." Schmollt, door > wiä mi Morrer nich. Mi Murrer harr edd to häpp mit Schmollt nix ssu dounn, > de wiär vörre Boller. Unn dee kräign wii dor denn okk. > ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Mike: > Ron, where does this wonderful piece of Stralsundish come from? I wrote >> (http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/probe05.htm): Note that the speaker switches between his own dialect -- e.g., (_diminutive _-ing_ in *_Groutfadder_ > *_Groutfarrer_ 'grandfather' > ) _Grötting_ 'grandpa', and _Großmurrer_ [half-German] 'grandmother' -- and that of _por lüdde Mägns_ ('a few little girls'): (_Mudder_ 'mother' > _Mudding_ > _Murring_ >) _Morräing_ 'mom(my)', and analogical extension of _-ing_ in (_Pudding_ > _Purring_ >) _Porräing_ 'pudding'. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 17:07:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:07:57 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2002.10.13 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (08) [E] Ron wrote: > >The traditional pattern is a general one, certainly in Europe: > national label > ethnic label > language assignment -- the basic assumptions > being based on the ideal that nation, ethnicity and language should be one, > that diversity is an inconvenience rather than a blessing. > Ron, you couldn´t have described it better! We are an inconvenience that has to be dealt with. My question remains: Are we Lowlanders, "minorities" in general, carriers of diversity, going to leave it at that? Perhaps posing the following question could get things moving in reverse gear, make this "inconvenience" appear for what it really is - like you say - a blessing: Which is easier to shovel into a bag: Fine sand or a few big boulders? Is it easier to build Europe from a few big, ethnically homogeneous states or a multitude of ethnically diverse regions? Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 17:38:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:38:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.11 (03) [E] Thanks, Ron. I love those idiomatic expressions with animals. I love dialectology and idiomatic expressions! God bless! Ben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica Ben, I take the liberty to include in your thanks all the others that contributed to this thread from the angles of Scots and a number of varieties of Belgium and the Netherlands. I provided the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) expression: > - up (d)'n Hund kamen > ("to come/get onto a/the dog") > 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)' There is a dialectal variant that may preserve the original version: - up (d)'n Hund to rieden kamen ("to come to ride on a/the dog") 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)', 'to lose on'se shirt (= everything)" And another expression: - Hunnenmelk sagen hebben ("to have sucked/nursed dog's milk") 'to be a sly/untrustworthy person' There are also the following proverbs: - Daar is keen Hund so dumm, dat he nich bellen lehrt. ("There is no dog so stupid that he does not learn to bark.") 'Certain things are innate/instinctive/don't have to be learned.' - Is de Hund över d'n Tuun, kümmt de Steert ook noch röver. ("Once the dog is across the fence, the tail gets across it too.") 'Once the hard part is done, everything else will follow easily.' - Kaam ik över d'n Hund, kaam ik ook över d'n Steert. ("[Once] I've gotten across the dog, I'll get across the tail as well.") 'Once the hard part is done, everything else will follow easily.' Note also the following compounds containing _Hund_ 'dog' (> _Hunnen_): - Hunnendanss ("dogs' dance'") 'crazy affair/to-do/fuss/fight' > _Hunnendanns up Socken_ ("dog's dance on socks") 'absolutely crazy affair/to-do/fuss /fight' - Hunnenhandschen ("dog's gloves/mittens") 'fishy/shaky/suspicious business'; 'untrustworthy person' - Hunnenschiet ("dog shit") 'inferior stuff/merchandize', 'fishy/shaky/ suspicious business' Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 17:47:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:47:32 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.13 (06) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Norman Erwin Subject: help Translating a Letter Greetings All, I would be eternally grateful if one of you would translate this letter and send the translation back to me: my (Norman) email address is the_wiz_ne at yahoo.com . I believe it is written in a very unusual dialect of Low German; a number of the words have origin in the language of Yiddish. Thank you very much for your consideration. The Letter reads as follows: "Mien scheena Jung, Ekj kaun fal fonn diene weada goanijch festone. Ekj well die, oba ein dinkj saje. Du haudst bata miene Dochta met fal respakjt be'haundle, wan du weest waut goot fa die es. Wan du dit kaust festone, dan schriewe ekj die dat naakjsta mol en enjelsch. Danyelle aa Foda, Jeff" ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Oh-uh! That's a warning in "Plautdietsch" (Mennonite Lowlands Saxon/Low German). It contains no Yiddish words that I can find, though both languages often seem alike because of the Eastern influences. Here goes: === My dear boy, I can't understand some of your words at all. I want to tell you one thing, though: you had better treat my daughter with a lot of respect if you know what is good for you. If you can (omitted: not?) understand this, I will write to you in English next time. Danyelles's father, Heff === Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 21:17:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:17:44 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (07) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Idiomatica" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Idiomatica > > I provided the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) expression: > > > - up (d)'n Hund kamen > > ("to come/get onto a/the dog") > > 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)' A peculiar thing about dog proverbs in Scots is that they tend to refer to a particular dog. Here's some from Hislop's Proverbs of Scotland: "Nae equal tae ye but oor dug Sorkie, an he's deid, sae ye're marrowless." "Ye're buttoned up the back like Achmahoy's dug." "Ye're like the dug o Dodhaa, baith dooble an twa-faced." "Ye're like the dugs o Dunraggit-ye winna bark unless ye hae yer hinder end tae the waa." Hislop doesn't explain any of these names - can anyone enlighten us? My mother had a favourite saying about "Birkie's dug", but I can't remember it. Anybody? Some of my favourite general dog proverbs: "An auld dug bites siccar." ("An old dog bites securely.") "Fecht dug, fecht bear; wha wins, deil care." ("Dogs and bears may fight but no-one cares about the outcome") "He can lee like a dug lickin a dish." ("He can tell lies like a dog licking a dish.") "He fells twa dugs wi ae bane." "He fells twa dugs wi ae stane." ("Killing two birds with one stone" - or "bone", in the diplomatic version) "Him that sleeps wi dugs maun ryce wi flechs." ("He who sleeps with dogs must rise with fleas.") "If I haed a dug as daft, I wad shoot him." (I've often heard this one!) "I'm no every man's dug that whistles on me." ("I don't answer to everyone") "Like the smith's dug, sleep at the soond o the hammer, an wauk at the crunchin o teeth." ("Like the blacksmith's dog, sleep at the sound of the hammer, and awaken at the crunching of teeth.") Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 22:34:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:34:07 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.13 (06) [E/LS] I worked for a while for an importer of books from Germany, Mary Rosenberg, Inc. Many of the books were scholarly, such as philology books. One book I found was about a version of Yiddish that was spoken in north Germany that was based on Plattdeutsch. I have ofen wodered if any speakers of this language remain. Of course one of the differences between Yiddish and standard German is that Yiddish was written in the Hebrew alphabet. This means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for these sounds exists. Could this letter be from a speaker of Yiddish Plattdeutsch? If so, where did they survive? ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Tom, If you can point me in the direction of any concrete sources about a Jewish language variety based on a Lowlands language, please do so by all means, because I have been looking for such information a long time. I have searched through all kinds of materials and collections, have read all kinds of books about Jewish languages (including books in Yiddish and Hebrew), have asked on this list and on Mendele (a Yiddish-focused list), and I have never come across any evidence of a Continental-Lowlands-based Jewish language variety. The closest thing would be Yiddish spoken by descendants of immigrants from Eastern Europe in Belgium and the Netherlands, and their language varieties are based on Eastern Yiddish with Dutch admixture. I suspect that what you are referring to is what is known as "Western Yiddish," a group of varieties spoken primarily in Germany, the Low Countries and Eastern France -- but no longer. As far as is known, it is extinct. (If it is not, *please*, anyone, let me know.) Rumor has it that there are still some speakers in Western France, but no one has been able to confirm this. Also there are or were some Jewish-specific varieties in Northern Switzerland, but, judging by samples I saw, they are Swiss German dialects with Yiddish influences. Sizeable Jewish communities were established in the Northern Lowlands fairly late. The first ones were Sefardic (i.e., Iberian Jewish), founded by refugees from the horrors of the Inquisition on the Iberian Peninsula (today's Spain and, particularly in the case of the Lowlands, Portugal, thus mostly speakers of late medieval or early modern Portuguese and Galician). They were particularly in evidence along the Netherlands coast, including Amsterdam, and also in Hamburg (arriving there via Emden), specifically in Altona, which then was a separate city and later frequently served as a refuge for Hamburg Jews whenever the city senate harrassed them with visa and business permit restrictions and other types of chicanery. These Sefardic communities proved to have made important contributions to the welfare and development of the larger communities. Their Hispanic-based Ladino varieties became extinct, at the latest with World War II. Sizeable Ashkenazic (i.e., German Jewish) communities in the Northern Lowlands came about later, mostly in the 17th century. (I am talking about *communities*, not individuals or individual families that may have moved north earlier.) Most of these immigrated from what are now Southern and Central Germany. Their home and community language varieties were what is known as "Western Yiddish," like Eastern Yiddish primarily a branch off Medieval German (*not* Lowlands Saxon/Low German!), but without the Slavic, Romanian, Baltic and Hungarian influences that characterize Eastern Yiddish (which was based on Western Yiddish transported to Eastern Europe). By the time these Ashkenazic communities were established in the north, German had already begun to encroach upon and usurping the Lowlands-Saxon speaking land, having become the language of power and prestige. West-Yiddish- and (with the non-Jewish world) German-speaking newcomers thus had no incentive to use Lowlands Saxon, although, like the German-speaking non-Jewish elite, they had an incentive to learn to *understand* the language of the common people if they had any direct contacts with them, few of which at that time could speak German, leave alone write it. In a couple of _belles-lettres_ works, I have come across dialogues in which Gentiles would speak in Lowlands Saxon and Jews would speak German (with or without Yiddish influences). I assume that that was the typical situation, at least in the cities. I further assume that Jews living in rural areas outside sizeable Yiddish- and German-speaking communities tended to be able to speak Lowlands Saxon, especially those that intermingled and married with non-Jews. Much of this is apparently true of the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking parts of the Netherlands as well, where most resident Jews were descendants of German immigrants (including immigrants from the German-speaking parts of France). Furthermore, especially in the 17th and 18th centuries, Jewish families that could afford it would intermarry across what is now the border between Germany and the Netherlands. You will find fascinating descriptions of this in the memoirs of Glückel von Hameln (Glikl Hameln), a Jewish woman born in Hamburg in the 17th century. It exists in English, German and other translations. (I would be grateful if anyone could help me get a copy of the original West Yiddish version.) If anyone has any lead to any resources that shed further light on possible Judeo-Lowlandic language varieties, I would be most grateful for informing me about it. Tom: > This > means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for these sounds exists. Only in Medieval Yiddish and in a few Early Modern Yiddish texts. On the whole, Yiddish (and Ladino) written with Hebrew script does represent and distinguish all vowels, and it does so in an ingenious way that bridges dialect boundaries, since it is mostly vowels and diphthongs that vary from dialect to dialect. Roman or any such script for Yiddish is thus an inferior solution, which is why a Roman- and Cyrillic-script orthography movements for Yiddish in the early 20th century were failures. > Could this letter be from a speaker of Yiddish Plattdeutsch? Absolutely not. As many of our native speakers members can attest, it is Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Low German), a.k.a. "Plautdietsch," the sole survivor of West Prussian Lowlands Saxon (of the area of the Vistula Delta in what is now Northern Poland), thus, like Eastern Yiddish, a Germanic language variety with Slavic and Baltic influences. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 22:39:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:39:52 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.13 (06) [E/LS] I worked for a while for an importer of books from Germany, Mary Rosenberg, Inc. Many of the books were scholarly, such as philology books. One book I found was about a version of Yiddish that was spoken in north Germany that was based on Plattdeutsch. I have ofen wodered if any speakers of this language remain. Of course one of the differences between Yiddish and standard German is that Yiddish was written in the Hebrew alphabet. This means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for these sounds exists. Could this letter be from a speaker of Yiddish Plattdeutsch? If so, where did they survive? ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Tom, If you can point me in the direction of any concrete sources about a Jewish language variety based on a Lowlands language, please do so by all means, because I have been looking for such information a long time. I have searched through all kinds of materials and collections, have read all kinds of books about Jewish languages (including books in Yiddish and Hebrew), have asked on this list and on Mendele (a Yiddish-focused list), and I have never come across any evidence of a Continental-Lowlands-based Jewish language variety. The closest thing would be Yiddish spoken by descendants of immigrants from Eastern Europe in Belgium and the Netherlands, and their language varieties are based on Eastern Yiddish with Dutch admixture. I suspect that what you are referring to is what is known as "Western Yiddish," a group of varieties spoken primarily in Germany, the Low Countries and Eastern France -- but no longer. As far as is known, it is extinct. (If it is not, *please*, anyone, let me know.) Rumor has it that there are still some speakers in Western France, but no one has been able to confirm this. Also there are or were some Jewish-specific varieties in Northern Switzerland, but, judging by samples I saw, they are Swiss German dialects with Yiddish influences. Sizeable Jewish communities were established in the Northern Lowlands fairly late. The first ones were Sefardic (i.e., Iberian Jewish), founded by refugees from the horrors of the Inquisition on the Iberian Peninsula (today's Spain and, particularly in the case of the Lowlands, Portugal, thus mostly speakers of late medieval or early modern Portuguese and Galician). They were particularly in evidence along the Netherlands coast, including Amsterdam, and also in Hamburg (arriving there via Emden), specifically in Altona, which then was a separate city and later frequently served as a refuge for Hamburg Jews whenever the city senate harrassed them with visa and business permit restrictions and other types of chicanery. These Sefardic communities proved to have made important contributions to the welfare and development of the larger communities. Their Hispanic-based Ladino varieties became extinct, at the latest with World War II. Sizeable Ashkenazic (i.e., German Jewish) communities in the Northern Lowlands came about later, mostly in the 17th century. (I am talking about *communities*, not individuals or individual families that may have moved north earlier.) Most of these immigrated from what are now Southern and Central Germany. Their home and community language varieties were what is known as "Western Yiddish," like Eastern Yiddish primarily a branch off Medieval German (*not* Lowlands Saxon/Low German!), but without the Slavic, Romanian, Baltic and Hungarian influences that characterize Eastern Yiddish (which was based on Western Yiddish transported to Eastern Europe). By the time these Ashkenazic communities were established in the north, German had already begun to encroach upon and usurping the Lowlands-Saxon speaking land, having become the language of power and prestige. West-Yiddish- and (with the non-Jewish world) German-speaking newcomers thus had no incentive to use Lowlands Saxon, although, like the German-speaking non-Jewish elite, they had an incentive to learn to *understand* the language of the common people if they had any direct contacts with them, few of which at that time could speak German, leave alone write it. In a couple of _belles-lettres_ works, I have come across dialogues in which Gentiles would speak in Lowlands Saxon and Jews would speak German (with or without Yiddish influences). I assume that that was the typical situation, at least in the cities. I further assume that Jews living in rural areas outside sizeable Yiddish- and German-speaking communities tended to be able to speak Lowlands Saxon, especially those that intermingled and married with non-Jews. Much of this is apparently true of the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking parts of the Netherlands as well, where most resident Jews were descendants of German immigrants (including immigrants from the German-speaking parts of France). Furthermore, especially in the 17th and 18th centuries, Jewish families that could afford it would intermarry across what is now the border between Germany and the Netherlands. You will find fascinating descriptions of this in the memoirs of Glückel von Hameln (Glikl Hameln), a Jewish woman born in Hamburg in the 17th century. It exists in English, German and other translations. (I would be grateful if anyone could help me get a copy of the original West Yiddish version.) If anyone has any lead to any resources that shed further light on possible Judeo-Lowlandic language varieties, I would be most grateful for informing me about it. Tom: > This > means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for these sounds exists. Only in Medieval Yiddish and in a few Early Modern Yiddish texts. On the whole, Yiddish (and Ladino) written with Hebrew script does represent and distinguish all vowels, and it does so in an ingenious way that bridges dialect boundaries, since it is mostly vowels and diphthongs that vary from dialect to dialect. Roman or any such script for Yiddish is thus an inferior solution, which is why a Roman- and Cyrillic-script orthography movements for Yiddish in the early 20th century were failures. > Could this letter be from a speaker of Yiddish Plattdeutsch? Absolutely not. As many of our native speakers members can attest, it is Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Low German), a.k.a. "Plautdietsch," the sole survivor of West Prussian Lowlands Saxon (of the area of the Vistula Delta in what is now Northern Poland), thus, like Eastern Yiddish, a Germanic language variety with Slavic and Baltic influences. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 22:48:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:48:01 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: Learning Plattdeutsch I left Rahden in 1955 and never went back to visit. Only lately have I been able to locate some of my family and friends again. I forgot Plattdeutsch in the intervening years. The pressure against using the language was enormous in my family. Then too, the language of instruction in school was in Hochdeutsch. I remember the misery of some of my friends who only spoke Plattdeutsch as we entered school because they could not understand the teacher. I had assumed that the language had died since I left. Recently though I found and wrote my childhood playmate, Erika (still living in Espelkamp) and asked her if she still speaks Plattdeutsch? She replied, "of course. It is such a beautiful language. I speak it every chance I get." I asked my old friend Heinz ( still living in Wehe, now a part of Rahden) the same question. He said that when he gets together with his friends, Plattdeutsch is the only language that they speak. I would like to go back home to visit over the next year or so but I am embarrassed that I appear to be the only member of my old circle who has become illiterate in Plattdeutsch. I live far from any place where the language is spoken. Can anyone recommend any books or other learning materials so that I can learn the language again? Preferably the dialect spoken in the Rahden area? Tom ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Reources Tom, I am afraid there is no textbook in English yet. I also doubt that you will find any textbook for the exact dialect your ancestors spoke. If you can read German, I recommend the book I recommended Gary Taylor a little while ago (16.AUG.2002 (01)): For your purposes I'd recommend the following: Marianne Kloock & Ingo Viechelmann, _Uns plattdüütsch Spraakbook : Texte to'n Sülvstlehren dörch Lesen, Snacken un Schrieben mit Grammatik : op hooch- un nedderdüütsch | auf hoch- und niederdeutsch_, Hamburg: Helmut Buske Verlag, 1989, ISBN 3-87118-907-3. Revised edition 1996: 190 pp. ISBN 3-87548-134-8, hardbound, Euro 16.80; cassette 70 min. ISBN 3-87118-908-1. Euro 19.80 It's not fantastic (what is?) but (1) it's usable for people like you (who know what they want and what they are doing), (2) it takes the language seriously, (3) it is predominantly Hamburg dialect (bearing in mind that Hamburg has several dialects), (4) it is strictly side-by-side "Low/High" (yes, even the theoretical parts), and (5) it comes with an audio cassette (Kloock: Hamburg, Viechelmann: Aumühle = marginally Hamburg/Holstein). Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 00:42:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:42:24 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kate Gladstone Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Thomas writes: > [because] Yiddish was written in the Hebrew alphabet. This > means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for > these sounds exists. Yet Yiddish has other sounds for which no Hebrew letter exists - e.g., /zh/ - voiced version of /sh/ - Yiddish represents this with the Hebrew letter for /z/ followed by the Hebrew letter for /sh/ , so, if the umlaut-sounds had existed in Yiddish, Yiddish-speakers/-writers could & probably would have found a way to represent these as well. When languages remove/change sounds, they usually *don't* do this for the sake of making the language match the writing-system (otherwise, English would have dropped most of its vowels by now, because English has many more vowel-sounds than vowel-letters). In any case, don't other related languages exist (other varieties/close relatives of German) that also lack umlaut-sounds ... yet that use the Roman alphabet and have never used any other? If so, then tracing the lack of umlauts in one of these languages to Hebrew spelling (an explanation that cannot apply to the others) seems (to me) rather implausible and unconvincing. Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair kate at global2000.net http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] I will make some inquiries. Unfortunately I no longer live in New York City, where such inquiries would be much easier. The book I saw at Mary Rosenberg, Inc. showed a map, delineating three broad bands of Yiddish spoken in Germany. The topmost band coincided with the area where Plattdeutsch was spoken. I assumed that the Yiddish spoken there reflected the Plattdeutsch spoken in that area but I am ot absolutely sure, not having read the book. My first wife was an Orthodox Jew who came from a Yiddish speaking family that originated in Kishinev. There is little resemblance to Plattdeutsch from the little Yiddish that I picked up. However, I developed some contacts in some of the Orthodox communities such as the Lubavitch, that I might be able to exploit to research this question. Religion appears to be a powerful force to save languages from extinction. Yes, I read the Glueckl of Hamlen book in English. A fascinating book. New York is home to a number of publishers that print works of interest to Jewish culture and language, such as Schocken Books. I will look into these as well. Tom ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Kate: > Yet Yiddish has other sounds for which no Hebrew letter exists Welcome, Kate! Good point, and a topic worth noting: introduction of foreign-derived phonemes, and all that entails. Tom, thanks a lot for planning to check into the resource thing! Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 03:09:04 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:09:04 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (10) [E] OK. My assumption had been that the lack of umlauts was restrictions imposed on Yiddish by the Hebrew alphabet. I didn't realize that ways had been found around this difficulty. Now I am back to square one, wondering why Yiddish lacks the umlauts?. And how Yiddish gets around the difficulties posed by this lack? But I am straying far from the subject matter of this discussion forum. As an aside, does anyone want to know what the word OK means and how it came about? I noticed my cousin Horst using it while speaking German, and his native language is Plattdeutsch. Tom ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (10) [E] Folks, Of course Yiddish has "umlauts", it just doesn't realize them as "ue" (I'll avoid diacriticals in case it doesn't read right on all browsers) or "oe". The plural of "buch" in yiddish is "bicher". I don't know if yiddish didn't carry the typical German kind of "ue" and "oe" umlaut sounds, but it may also have been affected in Eastern Europe by the lack of those sounds in the contact languages viz. Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian (I don't know ANYTHING about Lithuanian)? No? Stan > From: Kate Gladstone > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) > [E] > > Thomas writes: > > > [because] Yiddish was written in the Hebrew > alphabet. This > > means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped > because no Hebrew symbol > for > > these sounds exists. >...> In any case, don't other related languages exist > (other varieties/close > relatives > of German) that also lack umlaut-sounds ... yet that > use the Roman alphabet > and have never used any other? If so, then tracing > the lack of umlauts in > one of these languages to Hebrew spelling (an > explanation that cannot apply > to the others) seems (to me) rather implausible and > unconvincing. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Kate: > Yet Yiddish has other sounds for which no Hebrew letter exists I forgot to mention the "soft l" (a palatalized version, vs. a "thick" one, a contrast like in Russian and Gaelic) that some Eastern Yiddish dialects have acquired due to Slavonic (probably Russian) influence. Uriel Weinreich kindly distinguishes it by means of an apostrophe after the _lamed_. As Stan pointed out above, Yiddish does have umlauting like all (?) Germanic languages, but, as in English, the front rounded vowels have become unrounded: /ü/ > /i/, /ö/ > /e/. (I will add an example of the latter to Stans example above: _loch_ 'hole' > (*_löcher_ >) _lecher_ 'holes' (with the _ch_ *always* "back" as in Dutch, never as in German _ich_ and _Löcher_). In most dialects (with the exception of "Litvak," i.e., Lithuanian East Yiddish) the /ü/ > /i/ shift has become further obscured because /u/ has come to be pronounced as [i]; e.g., (_buch_ >) _bich_ 'book' > (*_bücher_ >) _bicher_ 'books', but this does not affect the spelling. Old West Yiddish (at least) seems to have had /ü/. Now, as an enthusiast of Jewish languages, especially of Yiddish (from which I have translated into Lowlands Saxon [Low Saxon]), I would love to go on about this, but wearing my hat as the moderator of Lowlands-L I have to say _genug shoyn mit yidish_ ("enough already with Yiddish"), since the language does not qualify as a Lowlandic one. Well, perhaps Tom will lead the way to a Lowlands-specific Jewish variety. However, frankly, I am pessimistic. Northern Germany and the Netherlands tend to be included in the area of (now extinct) West Yiddish, but West Yiddish was imported to that region from the south, primarily in the 17th century, and it therefore seems to be German-based rather than Saxon-based. Having said all this, I'd just love to be proven wrong in this instance. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 03:28:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:28:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (09) [E] I have an idea for you. Go to http://www.sassisch.net and read some poetry by Franz Brookmann. I am not familiar with the smaller towns in Germany, so I would not know if you are near Hamburg, but this Brookmann writes in Niedersassisch, and he translates to several languages including English, Afrikaans, Dutch and High German. As an amateur philologist, I love that cite, as I can see the relations and the differences among the varieties. God bless! Ben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Ben, Thanks for the recommendation above, which I assume is directed at Tom. I wrestled with myself a bit over what to do, if anything. My pranksterish and modest selves surrendered to my ethical (?) self. I confess that Franz Brookmann is no other than I. It is my pen name under which I have published Lowlands Saxon (Low German) poetry. It is the name of my maternal (West-Pomeranian-Saxon-speaking) grandfather and his son. Their Lowlands Saxon surname ended with their tragic ends quite a few years before I was born. I confess that the site needs some work, and the poetry displayed there is of my "early phase." And bless you to! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 19:23:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:23:51 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kate Gladstone Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (11) [E] Tom - I do, indeed, want to know: > what the word OK means and how it came about ... Re your inquiry about: > why Yiddish lacks the umlauts?. And how Yiddish gets around the > difficulties posed by this lack? I speak (some) Yiddish, I know several fluent speakers, and to none of us has it ever occurred that an umlaut-less language suffers "difficulties." (This reminds me of the time that a native speaker of Spanish asked me how we English-speakers could possibly understand each other, what with "a" often sounding like /e:/, "e" often sounding like /i:/, and "i" often sounding like /a:i/ .) > Folks, > Of course Yiddish has "umlauts", it just doesn't > realize them as "ue" (I'll avoid diacriticals in case > it doesn't read right on all browsers) or "oe". The > plural of "buch" in yiddish is "bicher". In fact, Yiddish carries this form of umlauting further than Standard German does ... the word "tog" (= 'day') forms its plural as 'teg', and the word "hunt" (= 'dog') forms its plural as "hint": somewhat as if a variety of German existed somewhere which formed these words as "Tag/Täg - Hund/Hünd". (Does such a variety of German exist?) Conversely, some Yiddish words lack umlauting where Standard German would have it: e.g., where Standard German has "schlafen/er schläft", Yiddish (at least in the central Polish variety I heard sometimes as a child) has what Standard German orthography would transcribe as "schlufen/er schluft". > I don't know if yiddish didn't carry the typical > German kind of "ue" and "oe" umlaut sounds, Yiddish, indeed, does not have these sounds: if we used Standard German orthography to spell the sounds of the Yiddish equivalent of "ich höre" ('I hear'), the Yiddish version would look like "ich here" ... (by the way, in reading the above example please also note that Yiddish (unlike Standard German) pronounces the final consonant of "ich" with the consonant-sound that in Standard German does not occur in "ich" but does occur in "ach". (This probably has less to do with the fact that Hebrew - or German - spelling treats these sounds as identical than it has to do with the fact that Yiddish split off from Standard German before the "ich"-sound became established as an allophone of the "ach"-sound. > I forgot to mention the "soft l" (a palatalized version, vs. a "thick" one, > a contrast like in Russian and Gaelic) that some Eastern Yiddish dialects > have acquired due to Slavonic (probably Russian) influence. Uriel Weinreich > kindly distinguishes it by means of an apostrophe after the _lamed_. There also exists a "soft n", generally transcribed as "ny" and spelled in Yiddish with the equivalent Hebrew letters - e.g., in the (probably originally-Slavic) Yiddish word "paskudnyak," meaning "scoundrel". Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair kate at global2000.net http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Although Yiddish has no official place at Lowlands-L, what Kate and I have been mentioning here (i.e., palatalized /l/ and /n/ in this case) is a good example of foreign phoneme adoption. As I see it, when contact with another language is casual (and few speakers learn it), foreign sounds tend to be converted to native phonemes or phoneme sequences (e.g., French _restaurant_ > English "résteront", written ), but when knowledge of the foreign language becomes common (as in the case of Russian proficiency among Yiddish speakers in much of what used to the Soviet Union), or foreign pronunciation becomes fashionable/prestigeous, then, if this prevails for long enough and there are many such loan words, the foreign phoneme may become internalized, i.e., added to the native phoneme inventory. How about thinking about such examples in the Lowlands languages? Regards, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: Folks, please keep subject lines apart. The subject of "O.K." should be posted separately under "Etymology." Sorry to sound so bureaucratic. ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Kate writes: < In any case, don't other related languages exist (other varieties/close > < relatives> < of German) that also lack umlaut-sounds... yet that use the Roman alphabet > < and have never used any other? If so, then tracing the lack of umlauts in > < one of these languages to Hebrew spelling (an explanation that cannot apply > < to the others) seems (to me) rather implausible and unconvincing. > Dear Kate, Just a minor clarifications. If my interpretation of your terminology is correct you refer to the umlaut-sounds as the /Ö/ and /ö:/ in and , and the /Ü/ and /ü:/ in and . I would call them "front rounded vowels", as /o/,/e/ and /i/ are also sound that partially arose by way of umlaut. In German they are mostly the result of various umlaut-processes during the Middle ages. They are not, however the sole source of <ü> and <ö>. I´m sure Ron can supply you with examples of <ö> and <ü> in German from processes of later rounding etc. (I can`t think of one now). Umlaut is the process by which a root-vowel with primary stress has been influenced by the quality of the vowel in the following unstressed syllable. In both High and Low German these processes were so common, that they were grammaticalised once the unstressed following vowel had lost its quality and had become "schwa", the neutral central vowel. Thereafter the i-Umlaut became a grammatical marker, i.e for plurals or subjunctives. Ther are other umlaut processes but the i-umlaut, the a-umlaut for example, which changed a /u/ in the stressed syllable to /o/ in case /a/ was found in the following syllable. Tjis is how the short /O/ phoneme came to exist in the Germanic languages. I will exemplify both umlauts with an example: I will use the reconstructed Germanic word *gultha-z = "gold" a-umlaut: early change from *gultha-z > *goltha- in West Germanic giving: in Ger., Eng., etc. the same root had also an adjectice ending in -ín- i-umlaut: Old High Germ. > H./L. Germ. , Old Engl. > Engl. (This is a rough generalisation, the umlaut processes can be quite complex, with primary and seconady umlaut, changes throughout the different evolutionary stages of the languages etc., but they would go too far here). < In any case, don't other related languages exist (other varieties/close > < relatives> < of German) that also lack umlaut-sounds> Oll surviving Germanic languages had umlauts originally. It is one of the characteristic features of the modern Germanic languages (the exception being the extinct Eastern Germanic dialects like Gothic). Many umlaut processes have been neutralised in the Frankish, (to some extent the East Frisian) and English/Scots dialects, especially concerning i-umlaut. German (both High and Low) generalised i-umlaut as one of its many plural markers, and is an important part of its morpho-phonology. The front rounded vowels /ü/ and /ö/ that you are referring to, have been derounded in many Germanic dialects, including English/Scots, North Frisian. In fact very many German dialects have derounded front vowels: Most of the central, eastern and upper German dialects (though not in High and Highest Allemannic). Most of central and eastern Austria has developed "new" front rounded vowels from the vocalising of following /l/, i.e. Viennese /gÖ:t/ HGerm. "Geld" = money. North Frsian and Scots also have "new" front rounded vowels, which did not arise through umlaut. Oh my god! I`ve been blabbering! Yours Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 19:27:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:27:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.14 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Eldo Neufeld Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.13 (02) [E] >From: Thomas Byro >Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] > >I have continued my inquiries regarding Pfeffernuesse. Several days ago I >was with the Shirk family, Pennsylvania Dutch speaking Old Order or Team >Mennonites. Mrs. Shirk did indeed have a copy of the cookbook that you >mention and the book contained 2 recipes for Pfeffernuesse, but she again >stated that she had never eaten them. She was intrigued enough however to >consider baking them this year. Perhaps I will be responsible for having >started a new Mennonite tradition in this area. As an aside, she pointed >out an interesting recipe the book contains for preparing enough food for >175 men for a barn raising. > >Mrs. Shirk also pointed out that another member of her community that I >know, Mark Nolt, came from Canada years ago speaking Plattdeutsch but >married locally and now speaks Pennsylvania Dutch. Perhaps I will ask him >when I next see him. > >Tom Byro Thomas, I'm not sure about this, but my impression certainly is that the Pfeffernüsse tradtion is not as strong among the Pennsylvania Old Order Amish as among other kinds of Mennonites. I have known many Amish people, in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Iowa, and Kansas, and although the subject never came up, the folkways are somewhat different. One thing no one has previously mentioned on the Päpanät subject is something my wife does. When she mixes a batch of dough, she rolls parts of it into longish rolls (ca. 20 cm long, 2 cm in diameter), freezes them, then takes them out, chops the individual "Nät" into 2 cm long pieces to be baked. They normally last all winter. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 19:31:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:31:38 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.10.14 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Ron wrote: > In a couple of _belles-lettres_ > works, I have come across dialogues in which Gentiles would speak in > Lowlands Saxon and Jews would speak German (with or without Yiddish > influences). I assume that that was the typical situation, at least in the > cities. (...) > Much of this is apparently true of the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking parts of the > Netherlands as well, where most resident Jews were descendants of German > immigrants (including immigrants from the German-speaking parts of France). My own grandmother, who now lives in Hilversum (North Holland), was born from a jewish father and a christian mother in the city of Groningen. Both her father and mother spoke the Low Saxon dialect of the city of Groningen as their 1st langua- ge, although her father could also speak (eastern?) Yiddish, as well as Frisian (he was a tradesman who did business with shops and craftsmen throughout the north of the Netherlands and Germany). My great grandfather ('Arie' Rose) could however NOT speak (High) German, or at least most certainly not fluently. My grandmother speaks Yiddish too, but I am under the impession that she is not fluent in the language and uses it mostly to confuse their grandchildren ;-) Something else: I am not too familiar with the Jewish languages of Europe, but the older people of the small Jewish community of Middelburg (capital of Zeeland) say that the Yiddish that they are familiar with (allthough they do not speak it themselves anymore; I think that is due to the small size of their community), is different from the Yiddish that they hear in the Jewish quarters of Ant- werp. Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 19:47:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:47:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.14 (04) [E/LS/V] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.13 (06) [E/LS] > From: Norman Erwin > Subject: help Translating a Letter > > Greetings All, > > I would be eternally grateful if one of you would translate this > letter and > send the translation back to me: my (Norman) email address is > the_wiz_ne at yahoo.com . I believe it is written in a very unusual > dialect > of Low German; a number of the words have origin in the language of > Yiddish. > Thank you very much for your consideration. The Letter reads as > follows: > > "Mien scheena Jung, > > Ekj kaun fal fonn diene weada goanijch festone. Ekj well die, oba ein > dinkj > saje. Du haudst bata miene Dochta met fal respakjt be'haundle, wan du > weest > waut goot fa die es. Wan du dit kaust festone, dan schriewe ekj die dat > naakjsta mol en enjelsch. > > Danyelle aa Foda, > > Jeff" Hello, In West-Flemish it could sound a bit like this: Min schoône jong', Ik kan vele van die woord'n heêlegans nie verstaon. Ik wille joe daorovre eên dink zegn'. Je gaot betre min dohtre me' veel respekt behand'ln want je weet wa goed voôr joen is . Wan eêr je da (en?) koste verstaone, dan schreve kik joe da 't naoste keê in 't Ingels. Danyelle heur vaodre ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties In Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Mien (schöne =) leve Jung, Ik kann veel (~ 'n Barg) vun Dien Wöör(d') gaarnich verstahn. Ik will Di man (~ avers) een Ding (~ Dink ~ Saak) seggen. Du hest (~ hettst) mien Dochter beter mit veel Respekt to behanneln, wenn Du weetst, wat good för Di is. Wenn Du düt (~ dit) [nich ?] verstahn kannst, denn schriev' ik Di dat neegste (~ tokamene ~ annere) Maal up Ingelsch. Danyelle ehr Vadder Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 00:59:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:59:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ruud Harmsen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (01) [E] 12:23 14-10-2002 -0700, Lowlands-L: >> I don't know if yiddish didn't carry the typical >> German kind of "ue" and "oe" umlaut sounds, > >Yiddish, indeed, does not have these sounds: Neither do many dialects in southern Germany and Austria. >(by the way, in reading the above example please also note that Yiddish >(unlike >Standard German) pronounces the final consonant of "ich" with the >consonant-sound >that in Standard German does not occur in "ich" but does occur in "ach". As does Swiss German. Coincidence? I think not. -- Ruud Harmsen ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (01) [E] Corrections of blabber-letter: read for (I´m afraid I´ve been wriing too much Cornish recently!!!) Derounding has occured in Highest Allemannic!!! Dan ---------- From: Dan Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (11) [E] Kate wrote: < somewhat as if a variety of German existed somewhere which formed > < these words as "Tag/Täg - Hund/Hünd". (Does such a variety of German < > > > exist?)> /E:/ = long open e /E/ = shor open e /ê/ = schwa /â/ = a-schwa from <-er> /O:/ = long open o /U/ = short lax u /S/ = sh /A:/ = long slightly velarised and raised a Dear Kate, Swabian has: /ta:k/ - /tE:k/ Tag - Tage = day - days /fliêgê/ /E:r fluigt/ = fiegen, er fliegt = to fly, he flies Central Bavarian: /jO:r/ - /ja:r/ Jahr - Jahre = year - years /Swoav/ - /Sweaf/ Schweif - Schweife = tail - tails again /dO:x/ - /daX/ Tag - Tage = day - days North Bavarian: /SdUk/ - /Sdikâ/ Stück - Stücke = piece - pieces Upper Franconian: /bra:d/ - /brEdê/ - /bredzd/ breit - breiter - breitest = broad - broader -broadest Alsatian: /A:rm/ - /a:rm/ Arm - Arme = arm - arms again /tA:j/ - /ta:j/ Tag - Tage = day - days Swiss: /pruêf/ - /pryêf/ Prüfung - Prüfungen = exam, -s Letzeburgsch / Luxemb.: - Monat - Monate = month, -s Palatinate/Pfalz: /arêmê/ - /E:rêm/ arm - arms Hessian: again /dA:x/ - /dE:S/ Tag - Tage = day, -s /So:f/ - /Se:f/ Schaf - Schafe = sheep Back to the Lowlands: Westphalian: Druoppen - Drüöppen; Tropfen - Tropfen = drop, -s Yours, Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 01:04:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:04:14 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Dear Lowlanders, Can any of you help me with the etymology of Polish _folwark_ and Yiddish _folvark_ (with a palatal /l/) '(country) estate', 'ranch'? It sounds rather Middle Lowlands Saxon (Low German). (*_volwark_ "full work"?) Thanks in advance! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:23:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:23:05 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.15 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Songs Hi again! Muckle thanks to Sandy for Jamie Telfer O'The Fair Dodhead. I LOVE border ballads. (One of my great grandmothers was a Kerr). If you would like to hear some it is quite hard to find more than one of them on any particular recording, BUT Fellside Recordings recently released a CD of them which I found on the Border Heritage website. It is called "Fyre & Sworde" and is quite wonderful. The notes include a map of the borders with many of the old border families' domains shown. There are several fine performers, but Graham Pert's versions of The Death of Parcy Reed and The Battle of Otterbourne are not to be missed! Rounder Records has also produced a wonderful 2 CD set of Child Ballads under the title Classic Ballads of Britain and Ireland, Volumes I and II. A lot of pure southwestern English and North Eastern Scots dialects are featured. Those curious about Yorkshire dialect are advised to track down the recordings of the Watersons. Thanks to Richard Turner too for his version of Old Bangham. I didn't mean to suggest that there were actual gnostics wandering around the Appalachians - only that their ancient beliefs left traces in the centuries old ballads which had survived there. On the other hand, witch lore is a major fact of Appalachian folklore - and I have always believed that linguistic evidence might cast a lot of light on the historians' debate over the reality or not of actual conscious witchcraft practice in medieval Europe and colonial America. Nor is witch lore restricted to Appalachia/Ozarks and Salem - So-called "hex signs" (actually anti-hex signs) are still sold tourists in the "Pennsylvania Dutch" country based on traditional wheel designs painted on some barns.) The older the ballad version - the longer - the bloodier - and the more supernatural/unorthodox elements are preserved. I agree with Richard that as I think he intimates, the chorus lines to Banghum strongly suggest a half remembered Latin incantation. Putting together different variants one is struck by the number of different supernatural elements spread across these versions. A Scottish version from Banffshire has a giant as well as a killer boar, and names the place as Tore (Thor?) wood. Sam Harmon of Maryville Tennessee sings blow your horn center (scenter? centaur?) and refers to the hero as a "jovial hunter" (Jove?) After killing the boar and finding the bones of five hundred men in its lair: He meets the old witch wife on the bridge Begone you rogue you've killed my pig There is three things I crave of thee Your hawk and hound your gay lady These three things you'll not have of me My hawk my hound my gay lady He split the old witch wife to the chin And on his way he went ag'in Evelyn Purcell, of Farmville, Albemarle County Virginia sang: Old Bangham blew both loud and shrill The wild boar heard on Temple hill Cubby ki, cuddle down Killy quo quam (remember "hocus pocus" derives from "Hoc ist corpus" in the Latin mass) The wild boar came with such a rush That he broke down hickory oak and ash etc. A similar version can be heard on "Five Miles Out of Town" Volume II Rounder 787 sung by Dee Hicks of Fentress County Tennessee. Ray Hicks from Watauga County North Carolina also did an album of Jack Tales for Folkways records - a classic of old Appalachian speech. One of these can be seen and heard on video - "Tall Tales of the Blue Ridge" from Eastern National Park and Monument Asociation 210 Riceville Road Asheville North Carolina 28805. Enjoy! George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:27:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:27:24 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] I am not a linguist, and I do not speak any Slavic languages, but that word sounds like bulwark. ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] Hi! Ron, I suspect falwark could be Prussian platt for pig-snare - cf. Afrikaans valvark but for the Yiddish connection. As to OK - like my "pooch" query - nobody knows for sure - although several theories exist, all involving American initials or shorthand: 1. Andrew Jackson's semi literate shorthand for "oll korrect" 2. "Old Kinderhook" knickname for President Martin Van Buren 3. Initials of an Ellis Island immigration agent or similar bureaucrat 4. secret society written equivalent of secret handshake such as Omega Kappa Old Kingdom or Original Konfederate. Common modern expressions "On the level" "On the square" and "hoodwink" all come from Masonic ritual. The similarity of OK to Scots emphatic positive Ach aye! has always intrigued me. Kilwinning Lodge in southwest Scotland has recently been shown to be the likely origin of Free Masonry in the British Isles. By the way, most Appalachians, while southerners, were not Confederates - they were Mountain Yankees. As one East Tennessee song "Lincoln Was A Union Man" put it: "Ah'd raither be a Lincoln man and kerrie a wooden gun Than to be a Rebel and always have to run." and from the Frank Proffit of Watauga County North Carolina version of the song "Going Across the Mountains" "Goin' across the mountains if I have to crawl Give old Jeff's men some of my rifle ball" (Jeff Davis - President of the Confederate States of America) Best wishes George ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] Hi, If that word were Dutch I'd think of to "fold" and not of "full", after all a fauteuil is nothing else than the fold stool used for the king when he's on campaign.... (The rest had to stand). And there is the word "voller", having something to do with textile industry.... Wark is often an earthwork, a "defensive work" in Dutch, earth walls or dikes, around a city or borough. Not necessary connected working so... As usually I don't have a clue, but I hope I bring somebody else to an idea... Moi! Wim [Verdoold] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:29:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:29:24 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.15 (03) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.06 (06) [E] Sandy wrote: >John, you see everything in black! Canna deny it. My uisual reply ti the question o whither the gless is hauf fou or hauf tuim is at I canna see naething in it ava! >Seven years ago, I wouldn't have known any better than to >use these books uncritically, either - but now I do know >better. Teachers favourably disposed towards Scots are also >likely to use Lorimer and Colin's book, and perhaps trawl >through ScotsteXt in search of further texts. Ultimately >it's a question of making enough good text and instruction >available for people to realise what's wrong with some of >them (such as Robertson's). Again, it comes back to the >question of a critical mass being available, and I think >we're making progress there. > >No doubt these problems you keep going over are interesting >discussion points, but you can't _solve_ problems without >some sort of optimism to the effect that solutions can be >found. Aye, this is true eneuch, an makkin up mair an mair guid graith is gaun the richt wey. But I feel at, at some stage or anither, the wey at the Scots langage 'scene' is dominatit bi thaim at caa's aathing an oniething 'Scots', an writes juist English wi Scots bitties here an thare, maun be teckled heid-on. Ithergates, the guid graith will juist be seen as anither contribution alang wi aa the ither troke, ane as guid as the ither. In the wider minority-langage warld, I see fowk recognisin at some kynd o standardisation (tho that's aye no a verra guid word, cause it can hae the wrang connotations) is necessar in the upbiggin o a leid. I see at the representatives o Sardinian an Romansch in European minority langage circles (canna mynd aither o thair names) recognises this. Sae in thae kintras, the 'aathing an oniething' approach canna hae siccan a haud as it dis ower here. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:32:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:32:12 -0700 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.15 (04) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (07) [E/S] Hi! Sandy asks about some dogs including the dug o Dod's Haa. This is a border hold and implies that the owners were double dealing in border affairs. Some Grahams and some Halls had this reputation - "The three fause Ha's O' Girsenfield they'll never be trusted nor trowed again" (from the Death of Parcy Reed) while the Grahams of the Bateable (Debatable) lands once wrote to the King in Edinborough threatening to turn English if they didn't get better treatment. The Douglases once conspired with the MacDonalds of the Isles to split Scotland between them (but the MacDonalds were defeated at Harlaw - The Kerrs of Cessford and the Kerrs of Ferniehurst feuded with one another - and an old border ballad bewails the Kings betrayal of the border outlaw Johnnie Armstrong. The Dods were mainly English but had a Scottish branch in Roxboroughshire. gang ye weel George >From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] >Subject: "Idiomatica" > > > From: R. F. Hahn > > Subject: Idiomatica > > > > I provided the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) expression: > > > > > - up (d)'n Hund kamen > > > ("to come/get onto a/the dog") > > > 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)' > >A peculiar thing about dog proverbs in Scots is that they >tend to refer to a particular dog. Here's some from Hislop's >Proverbs of Scotland: > >"Nae equal tae ye but oor dug Sorkie, an he's deid, sae ye're marrowless." > >"Ye're buttoned up the back like Achmahoy's dug." > >"Ye're like the dug o Dodhaa, baith dooble an twa-faced." > >"Ye're like the dugs o Dunraggit-ye winna bark unless ye hae yer hinder end >tae the waa." > >Hislop doesn't explain any of these names - can anyone enlighten us? > >My mother had a favourite saying about "Birkie's dug", but I can't remember >it. Anybody? > >Some of my favourite general dog proverbs: > >"An auld dug bites siccar." >("An old dog bites securely.") > >"Fecht dug, fecht bear; wha wins, deil care." >("Dogs and bears may fight but no-one cares about the outcome") > >"He can lee like a dug lickin a dish." >("He can tell lies like a dog licking a dish.") > >"He fells twa dugs wi ae bane." >"He fells twa dugs wi ae stane." >("Killing two birds with one stone" - or "bone", in the diplomatic version) > >"Him that sleeps wi dugs maun ryce wi flechs." >("He who sleeps with dogs must rise with fleas.") > >"If I haed a dug as daft, I wad shoot him." >(I've often heard this one!) > >"I'm no every man's dug that whistles on me." >("I don't answer to everyone") > >"Like the smith's dug, sleep at the soond o the hammer, an >wauk at the crunchin o teeth." >("Like the blacksmith's dog, sleep at the sound of the hammer, >and awaken at the crunching of teeth.") > >Sandy >http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:47:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:47:12 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.15 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (12) [E] Mr. Reinhart, it is an honor to hear from you. The poem about the Jewish mother moved me greatly. That was the poem "In the Still." Thanks. Ben ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 16:07:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:07:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.15 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (11) [E] Just look at Dutch. Yes, it still has the Germanic sounds to which they have attached the dieresis, but Dutch does not use the dieresis. It uses EU and UU. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 16:37:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:37:07 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (02) [E] At 08:27 AM 10/15/02 -0700, George M Gibault wrote: 1. Andrew Jackson's semi literate shorthand for "oll korrect" 2. "Old Kinderhook" knickname for President Martin Van Buren 3. Initials of an Ellis Island immigration agent or similar bureaucrat 4. secret society written equivalent of secret handshake such as Omega Kappa Old Kingdom or Original Konfederate. Actually, there's a much more complete list in L-L submission of 06.FEB.1999 (06). I personally favor the Choctaw Indian origin of the word, since all the others seem so contrived. Perhaps Ron would like to resend this excellent summary of a subject that has come up more than once over the years. "Ah'd raither be a Lincoln man and kerrie a wooden gun Than to be a Rebel and always have to run." As were about half my ancestors who left Virginia before the start of the war and went to Lincoln's home state of Illinois. And don't forget that West Virginia (the most mountainous part of the state) actually seceded from Virginia during the war! I also recall that there was a whole county in Tennessee that refused to send soldiers and Confederate conscription men feared to enter. I think the state motto of West Virginia is "Mountain Men Are Free Men". Sounds to me like a real Scots sort of thing to say. Ed Alexander JAG REALTY INC. 80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1 Pager: 905-312-5204 Fax: 905-525-6671 www.jagrealty.com ED'S FUNDRAISER PAGE: http://www.deerhurst.com/fundraiser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 22:33:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:33:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (08) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (07) [E] Hi! Ed Alexander mentions the state motto of West Virginia - it is "Montani Semper Liberi" Mountaineers always freemen. Parts of western North Carolina formed the "Free State of Franklin" but it didn't survive the war. Similar secession from secession movements were the Free State if Jones in Mississippi and Winston in the hills of northern Alabama. German immigrants to the United States were strongly recruited by Lincoln with promises of homesteads after the war - and this largely explains why so many German speakers settled the upper midwest and west from Wisconsin to Montana.. The politics of the south broke down along union/confederate lines for the next hundred years - so you could actually find the concentrations of German speakers on a map of Texas simply by finding counties that registered significant votes for Republican presidential candidates before 1950. The German dialect of such union volunteers was even parodied (badly) in the popular songs "Corporal Schnapps" and "Fighting Mit Siegal" Cheers George ---------- From: elsie zinsser Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (02) [E] Haai almal, George Gibault wrote: "Ron, I suspect falwark could be Prussian platt for pig-snare - cf. Afrikaans valvark but for the Yiddish connection." I don't know the word 'valvark' in Afrikaans. It does not relate to either a farm operation (which I assume is the meaning of falwark) or a pig snare. That is 'valstrik' in Afrikaans. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology Beste liëglanners, The Polish word "folwark" and its Yiddish counterpart "folvark" have been derived from the German(ic) word : "das Vorwerk" meaning (and here I quote Adelungs dictionary) : "...das Vorwêrk, des __es, plur. die __e, ein von einem Landgute abgesondertes und vornehmlich zur Ziebzucht bestimmtes Stück, welches als ein eigenes Werk, oder eine eigene Anstalt betrachtet wird. Ein Meierhof. Ein Vorwerk bestehet gemeiniglich aus einigen von einem Hauptgute abgesonderten und mit den dazu nöthigen wirthschaftlichen Gebäuden versehenen Ländereyen. Es führet den Nahmen ohne Zweifel daher, weil es sich gemeiniglich vor dem Hauptgute befindet; ob es gleich im Oberdeutschen fuhrwerk lautet, und daher manche zu einer irrigen Ableitung veranlasset hat, als wenn das Vorwerk eine Anstalt wäre, wohin das Fuhrwesen von dem Hauptgute verleget worden, welches zwar in einigen, aber vielleicht nur in wenigen Fällen zutrifft. In Baiern heisst ein Vorwerk ein Schwaig. ..." In the Northern Netherlands this is called a "voorwerk" or an "uithof". It's definitely another word than "bolwerk" (D), "Bollwerk" (G), "boulevard" (F) which is originally a construction (= een werk) of "bolen aat" as we say in Brabantish (= "Bohle" + "Holz" in German). Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks, everyone, for the tips regarding Polish _folwark_ and Yiddish _folvark_. Luc, interesting, that thing about _Vorwerk_ etc. While this may well be true, I am somewhat skeptical regarding the phonology of it. I hardly think that Polish and/or Yiddish would make German _...werk_ into _...wark_ or _...vark_, since they would render _...erC_ as _...erC_. _Folwark_ and _folvark_ would have to be derived from *_...wark_. German (and Dutch) _erC_ pretty much consistently corresponds to _arC_ in Lowlands Saxon (Low German); e.g. _Werk_ = _Wark_ [va:k] 'work', _Werder_ = _Warder_ ['va:d3`] 'river island', _Zwerg_ = _Dwarg_ [dva:x] 'dwarf', _Berg_ = _Barg_ [ba:x] 'mountain', 'hill', _kerben_ = _karven_ ['ka:vm=] 'to carve', _fertig_ = _fardig_ ['fa:dIC] 'ready', 'completed', _Lerche_ = (Lewark ~) _Lark_ [la:k] 'lark'. Switching between /r/ and /l/ is not unheard of in LS, though in most cases variation between [r] and [l] occurs in intervocalic "flap" /d/ or /t/ (e.g., _Butter_ ~ _Budder_ ~ _Burrer_ ~ _Buller_ 'butter'. I'd therefore guess that _folwark_ entered Polish, yes, from "German" as it was considered then, namely from Lowlands Saxon (via Kashubian?) and Yiddish from Polish. In fact, there is the LS family name _Vorwark_ (besides German _Vorwerk_). Also, there was supposed to be a place in what is now Poland (Gniezno/Gnesen, a little northeast of Poznan/Posen) called Vorwark, but I have not been able to verify this and do not know the Polish name. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 22:55:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:55:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.15 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (09) [E] Good luck, Tom! Isn´t it a sad state of affairs, though, Ron, for a language of several tens of millions of speakers even as recently as 50 years ago? Mike Wintzer THE FOLLOWING QUOETS EDITED BY ME...M.W. > From: Thomas Byro > Subject: Learning Plattdeutsch > >...The pressure against using the language was > enormous in my family. Then too, the language of instruction in school was > in Hochdeutsch. I remember the misery of some of my friends who only spoke > Plattdeutsch as we entered school because they could not understand the > teacher... >...Can anyone recommend any books or other learning materials so that I can learn > the language again? Preferably the dialect spoken in the Rahden area? > > Tom > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Reources > > Tom, > > I am afraid there is no textbook in English yet. I also doubt that you will > find any textbook for the exact dialect your ancestors spoke. If you can > read German, I recommend the book I recommended Gary Taylor a little while > ago (16.AUG.2002 (01)): > > > > For your purposes I'd recommend the following: > > Marianne Kloock & Ingo Viechelmann, _Uns plattdüütsch Spraakbook : > Texte to'n Sülvstlehren dörch Lesen, Snacken un Schrieben mit > Grammatik : op hooch- un nedderdüütsch | auf hoch- und > niederdeutsch_, > Hamburg: Helmut Buske Verlag, 1989, ISBN 3-87118-907-3. > Revised edition 1996: 190 pp. ISBN 3-87548-134-8, hardbound, > Euro 16.80; > cassette 70 min. ISBN 3-87118-908-1. Euro 19.80 > > It's not fantastic (what is?)... ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (09) [E] Tom wrote and Ron answered (edited): > From: Thomas Byro > Subject: Learning Plattdeutsch > >...The pressure against using the language was > enormous in my family. Then too, the language of instruction in school was > in Hochdeutsch. I remember the misery of some of my friends who only spoke > Plattdeutsch as we entered school because they could not understand the > teacher... WHAT ABOUT UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS? THEY GUARANTEE THE RIGHT TO CULTURE AND LANGUAGE! >...Can anyone recommend any books or other learning materials so that I can learn > the language again? Preferably the dialect spoken in the Rahden area? > > Tom TOM, GOOD LUCK!!! I WISH I HAD YOUR COURAGE AND MOTIVATION. > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Reources > > Tom, > > I am afraid there is no textbook in English yet. I also doubt that you will > find any textbook for the exact dialect your ancestors spoke. If you can > read German, I recommend the book I recommended Gary Taylor a little while > ago (16.AUG.2002 (01)): > > > > For your purposes I'd recommend the following: > > Marianne Kloock & Ingo Viechelmann, _Uns plattdüütsch Spraakbook : > Texte to'n Sülvstlehren dörch Lesen, Snacken un Schrieben mit > Grammatik : op hooch- un nedderdüütsch | auf hoch- und > niederdeutsch_, > Hamburg: Helmut Buske Verlag, 1989, ISBN 3-87118-907-3. > Revised edition 1996: 190 pp. ISBN 3-87548-134-8, hardbound, > Euro 16.80; > cassette 70 min. ISBN 3-87118-908-1. Euro 19.80 > > It's not fantastic (what is?)... > Cheers! > Reinhard/Ron > RON, ISN´T IT A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS THAT FOR A LANGUAGE SPOKEN BY SEVERAL TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AS RECENTLY AS 50 YEARS AGO; THERE IS SUCH A MEAGER ("not fantastic") CHOICE OF SELF-TEACH BOOKS? Mike Wintzer ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Mike, Lowlanders, Of course it's a sad state of affairs! However -- and this does not really distract from the sadness factor -- there are apparently other textbooks floating around, mostly for German schools, and there are not tens of millions of speakers but at the very, very most ten million. Estimates (in the absence of census figures) are all over the place. This is what I say at Lowlands Talk (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/): :: Number of speakers The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers is not known, since so far there have been no large-scale surveys. Estimates vary wildly, from 2 to 10 million. Between 1.5 and 2 million tend to be estimated for the Netherlands. Estimates for Germany are less specific. Much depends on how language competence is defined. The number would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant and can follow simple narratives, and it would be even larger if it included those who consider themselves speakers but can really only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient, German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt). The number of true native speakers is small and decreasing. However, there is a fair and perhaps growing number of North Germans who are proficient in Lowlands Saxon as a second or "resurrected" language. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 22:57:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:57:06 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.15 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (01) [E] Kate wrote: > these words as "Tag/Täg - Hund/Hünd". (Does such a variety of German exist?) If it helps any, my Swiss colleagues used to form such (to my ears) funny sounding plurals as Schäfe (to Schaf.) Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 14:48:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:48:19 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Etymology > >Dear Lowlanders, > >Can any of you help me with the etymology of Polish _folwark_ and Yiddish >_folvark_ (with a palatal /l/) '(country) estate', 'ranch'? It sounds >rather Middle Lowlands Saxon (Low German). (*_volwark_ "full work"?) > >Thanks in advance! >Reinhard/Ron Hello Ron ! The words in question (Polish >folwark< and Yiddish >folvark<) I believe to be derived from German >Vorwerk< (I don't know any proper English translation but it is a special kind of estate or farm). Little irritation is left by the palatal ~l~. I would expect a postpalatal sound with some throat pressure (sounding somewhat like ~forlwark~). Kind regards Holger ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L Etymology The word OK originated in one of the early 19th century American presidential elections. I think it was that between Harrison and Tyler. Anyway, one of them was described in the election propaganda as being a rough frontiersman, a native of the upstate village of Old Kinderhook, which was a frontier village in his youth. Actually he was no such thing, but was a member of the Dutch patroon class of upstate New York. Anyway, during the course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." It amazes me how the word OK has gained acceptance among speakers of so many languages and at how few people actually know what it means. My confusion regarding my perceived difficulties regarding the umlaut situation in Yiddish I just posted in response to another letter. I chaged the heading to Etymology, as suggested by Ron Tom From: Kate Gladstone what the word OK means and how it came about ... Re your inquiry about: > why Yiddish lacks the umlauts?. And how Yiddish gets around the > difficulties posed by this lack? I speak (some) Yiddish, I know several fluent speakers, and to none of us has it ever occurred that an umlaut-less language suffers "difficulties." (This reminds me of the time that a native speaker of Spanish asked me how we English-speakers could possibly understand each other, what with "a" often sounding like /e:/, "e" often sounding like /i:/, and "i" often sounding like /a:i/ .) > Folks, > Of course Yiddish has "umlauts", it just doesn't > realize them as "ue" (I'll avoid diacriticals in case > it doesn't read right on all browsers) or "oe". The > plural of "buch" in yiddish is "bicher". In fact, Yiddish carries this form of umlauting further than Standard German does ... the word "tog" (= 'day') forms its plural as 'teg', and the word "hunt" (= 'dog') forms its plural as "hint": somewhat as if a variety of German existed somewhere which formed these words as "Tag/Täg - Hund/Hünd". (Does such a variety of German exist?) Conversely, some Yiddish words lack umlauting where Standard German would have it: e.g., where Standard German has "schlafen/er schläft", Yiddish (at least in the central Polish variety I heard sometimes as a child) has what Standard German orthography would transcribe as "schlufen/er schluft". > I don't know if yiddish didn't carry the typical > German kind of "ue" and "oe" umlaut sounds, Yiddish, indeed, does not have these sounds: if we used Standard German orthography to spell the sounds of the Yiddish equivalent of "ich höre" ('I hear'), the Yiddish version would look like "ich here" ... (by the way, in reading the above example please also note that Yiddish (unlike Standard German) pronounces the final consonant of "ich" with the consonant-sound that in Standard German does not occur in "ich" but does occur in "ach". (This probably has less to do with the fact that Hebrew - or German - spelling treats these sounds as identical than it has to do with the fact that Yiddish split off from Standard German before the "ich"-sound became established as an allophone of the "ach"-sound. > I forgot to mention the "soft l" (a palatalized version, vs. a "thick" one, > a contrast like in Russian and Gaelic) that some Eastern Yiddish dialects > have acquired due to Slavonic (probably Russian) influence. Uriel Weinreich > kindly distinguishes it by means of an apostrophe after the _lamed_. There also exists a "soft n", generally transcribed as "ny" and spelled in Yiddish with the equivalent Hebrew letters - e.g., in the (probably originally-Slavic) Yiddish word "paskudnyak," meaning "scoundrel". Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair kate at global2000.net http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 14:51:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:51:31 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.16 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (03) [E/LS] >From: Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) >Subject: festivities > >Does anybody know the meaning of "Kip Kap Kí¹zíµ¬" and "Sí±ºí¾¥r Martins Ví¹zíµ¬" >(=the birds of St. Martin ??) Hello, Hyazinth ! >Kipkapko"o"gel< is the LS word for >lantern< in Eastern Friesland and obviously in other areas too. Kumpelment Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 14:56:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:56:32 -0700 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: fr.andreas at juno.com fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (08) [E/German] Hey. The State of Franklin (or later, Frankland) was formed from counties or territories in what used to be Western North Carolina, but across the mountains! They were in what is now East Tennessee. The statehood of Frankland (my preference, which I'll explain in a moment) was defeated by Daniel Webster, a blot on his memory. This was rather earlier then the time of the Civil War, and before the statehood of Tennessee in 1796. These men of Wautauga and Holston Settlements were organized under Cols John Sevier and William Walker and Hugh Underwood (buried next-door) and William Blount, later the first governor of Tennessee. The only battle of the Revolutionary War that was fought in Frankland was fought in what is now my back yard. The Treaty of Dumplin Valley was signed two doors down. When I write that I am a Southern Appalachian, what you must understand is that I am neither from Central nor from Northern Appalachia. Southern Appalachia is the Blue Ridge, the Great Smokies and the Cumberland Mountains of Virginia, Tennessee, North and South Carolina, north Georgia and northern Alabama. It has nothing to do with the Civil War, either. My family were Federalists. We don't say "you-all." The plural is "yuins." We prefer to be called Ridgerunners or Mountainfolk. If you're not one of us, please don't use the "H-word." I had to call a man down for that the other day. Highlander is acceptable, but not widely used. It might be supposed that we are a little prickly. Central Appalachia is Kentucky, parts of Ohio and West Virginia. Northern Appalachia extends through Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York and New England. Appalachia all together is a pretty big place with widely diverging language and folkways. Lastly, why Frankland? Because it best carries the intent of what we meant by naming the state Franklin as well, without the supposed flattery to Ol Ben. A franklin is a free-holder. Frankland simply means the Land of the Free. I am a Frankland seperatist, but we're not organized... yet. Nice to hear from you, Ed. Yorn, Avva Andreas (Richard Turner) ---------- From: Pat Reynolds Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.08.06 (02) [D/E] In message <3D5042C3.17CAB856 at lowlands-l.net>, From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann" writes >In the city of "Potsdam", very close to Berlin, You also can see very >strong Dutch influences. I visited Potsdam about ten years ago, and was very struck by the early modern houses there which utilise the short wall anchor construction technique which has its heartland in the Low Countries. Is that what you meant by 'seeing' the influence? I think the buildings probably dated from around the 17th century. It was dark, and I didn't take any photographs, apart from one in a restaurant, which is decorated with architectural fragments such as window-frames, taken from now-demolished buildings. I have not traced the eastern fringe of the use of the construction technique, but it goes some way in to Germany (e.g. to Bergedorf Castle in Hamburg, various buildings in Cologne). I was told that the buildings were constructed by Dutch builders who had been brought in with, or were possibly the same people as, Dutch men contracted to dig a canal at Pottsdam. If anyone knows any more about these buildings, or the history of early modern Pottsdam, please let me know! I shall look in the areas Ron mentioned to see what the buildings are like there, too. I am very interested in seeing if there are parallels which can be drawn between the use of language and material culture: both in the original extent - like Ron's description of the Linguistic Low Countries which extends into Germany, the Building Low Countries extends there, and also into the Pas de Calais. And, the extent of continuity of the linguistic and building tradition - did people keep speaking Dutch in Pottsdam for the same length of time that they kept building 'Dutch'? I am currently building a database of buildings, which includes their longitude and latitude, so that the data can be displayed through a GIS programme. Best wishes to you all, Pat -- Pat Reynolds pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years time" (T. Pratchett) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 15:22:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:22:31 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.16 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: resources Hello Lowlanders ! Following the recent discussion on festivities I've got the idea to start a new web-project. It's just in the beginning yet - much has to be done during long winter-nights to complete it - but probably You want to have a look already. If interested go to: Kumpelment Holger ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Ron I just thought of a contact who might be able to resolve this question of a possible Judeo-lowland language. This is Professor Stanley Ned Rosenbaum, formerly professor of Judaic Studies at Dickinson College in Carlisle, PA. My son Andrew and I remember him fondly from Torah study here in Carlisle. Torah study with Ned was an intellectual orgy. Ned immortalized Andrew in his most recent book by citing him in a footnote based on an observation Andrew made when he was 12 years old that apparently no one had thought of before. I could provide you with Ned's e-mail address, after sending him an introductory e-mail, introducing you, or I could function as a sort of middleman. I think that you would find it fascinating and productive to get to know Ned.Unfortunately, Ned no longer lives here, having moved to Kentucky when he retired. Tom ---------- From: Veturlidi Oskarsson Subject: Old Frisian Hello, I am new on the list and don't know what you have been discussing, so I might be asking something that already has been answered. I wanted to ask if anybody could tell me about the sources to Old Frisian. In dictionaries, the period of Old Frisian is usually 1270-1500. But are there no older sources to the Frisian language than from the late 13th century? Greetings, Veturlidi Oskarsson, University of Uppsala ---------- From: fr.andreas at juno.com fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.15 (01) [E] Dear George and all, While there really is a hierodeacon of ours who used to be a gnostic, it wasn't the religion he learned at his mother's knee. Of course I never thought, George, that you were intending to say that the hills were alive with Valentinians, Ophites and Basilidians. There are some Waldensians left over in Valdez, NC, though. Witch lore? Yep. Witches? Probably not til after Gerald Gardner and Sibyl Leek and that lot. I don't set much store by theories that have strange survivals tucked away in these hollows. Such is the stuff of the Silver John stories of Manly Wade Wellman but not of much fact. It's rather like the reputation of George Pickingill in England... much bruited yet still undemonstrated. The nonsense chorus of Old Bang'Em isn't so much an incantation, I think, as it is a sort of dog-Latin. I poked fun at it and us, as is our wont. Bibliomancy is the only sort of mantia found in these parts, based on a belief in the (magical) power in the words of Scripture. I remember that there is a verse in Proverbs that gets rid of warts, but I can't remember which. I have seen a Civil War era Scripture-amulet purporting to render the bearer bullet-proof. At least, there wasn't any blood on the paper! The relation of Jove to jovial is causal, that is, etymological. Joviality is named after the supposed astrological influence of his star. As for Tore (maybe Tor?) wood, you'd need to ask a Scot. Most importantly, however, thanks a lot for the recommendation of the resource material. Ron, mightn't some of that be named as an off-line resource in our Appalachian section? It's certainly the right stuff. Avva Andreas (Richard Turner) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Reources Veturliði Óskarsson: > I am new on the list and don't know what you have been discussing Welcome, Veturliði! (What a lovely, romantic-sounding Icelandic name!) Have you had a look at our on- and offline Frisian resource lists? You can find them under "Resources" at our site (http://www.lowlands-l.net). Avva Andreas: > Most importantly, however, thanks a lot for the recommendation of > the resource material. Ron, mightn't some of that be named as an off-line > resource in our Appalachian section? It's certainly the right stuff. Sure! I'd have to go back to the archive to retrieve it. In fact, we *should* have separate guides for Appalachian, so online and offline tips would be greatfully received. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 16:08:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:08:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.16 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (05) [E] I don't know enough Yiddish to know how the language gets around the lack of umlauts. I recently read an article about the revival of Yiddish in the states, not only as a spoken and written language but as a language of the stage. Yiddish once had a vibrant presence on the stage in New York. The article referred to the stage as Die Biehne. This would be the same as the Hochdeutsch name for the insect that produces honey. I don't know how the two are distinguished in Yiddish. An article I read on the web suggested that Yiddish shares elements of pronounciation found only in dialects in eastern Bayern and suggests that this area is where most European Jews originated. I would disagree with this notion because it is allmost certain that Jews lived in Rhineland cities such as Colonnia Aggripina during the Roman empire and probably traded with the German tribes across the Rhine.This would have been before Yiddish developed as a language. Has anyone ever searched for Jewish artifacts in the later trading centers such as Hedeby, Birka, Hamburg, etc? What language would such people have spoken? Tom ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology But, Tom, Yiddish *does* have umlauting; e.g., (*_houz_ >) _hojz_ 'house' (cf. German _Haus_, LS _Huus_) vs (*_häüzer_ >)_hajzer_ 'houses' (cf. German _Häuser_, LS _Hüüs'_), _vort_ 'word' (cf. German _Wort_, LS _Woord_) vs (*_vörter_ >) _verter_ 'words' (cf. German _Wörter_, LS _Wöör(d')_). Like most Germanic varieties of Eastern Europe, Yiddish changed the front rounded vowels (ö and ü) into unrounded ones (e and i). Just because a language does not use a pair of dots above the symbol for an umlauted vowel does not mean that it does not have the phonological process of umlauting. So there is a difference between the phonological rule of umlauting and the orthographic way in which it is represented orthographically. The same goes for English. It started off with umlauting (e.g., _man_ > _men_, _mouse_ > _mice_) but later (after French influx?) stopped it. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 16:26:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:26:23 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] Thomas Byro wrote: > The word OK originated in one of the early 19th century American > presidential elections. I think it was that between Harrison and Tyler. > Anyway, one of them was described in the election propaganda as being a > rough frontiersman, a native of the upstate village of Old Kinderhook, which > was a frontier village in his youth. Actually he was no such thing, but was > a member of the Dutch patroon class of upstate New York. Anyway, during the > course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the > election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." Thomas writes about the 'Dutch patroon class' and Old Kinderhook. Maybe it's nice to know for people interested in Dutch language and culture in the eastern states of the USA that an archaic form of Dutch (Jersey Dutch, Albany Dutch, Mohawk Dutch or Schoharie Dutch; there might have been differences between these varieties) was still spoken there well into the 19th century in northern New Jersey and upstate New York, including Kinderhook. That's over 250 years after the Dutch first settled on the banks of the Hudson river and 200 years after the English took over the Dutch colony of New Netherland there. In fact, the Jersey Dutch language had not yet completely died out in the 1930s and 40s! On a few genealogical sites, I found some remarks, of which the following (about a Rachel Hoppers who died in 1937, aged 73 - see http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~reetrees/line.html for details): "James and his wife Rachel were the last of this family of Hoppers to be able to communicate with each other in "Jersey Dutch." Born two hundred years after their Dutch ancestors had emigrated, they were the last generation to be able to converse in a language that had been perpetuated by the closeness of the Bergen Rockland community. Although the language had changed over the years, according to his dau. Ruth, James was still able to communi- cate with workers he hired who were natives of Holland". Even more striking is the story of the Ramapo Mountain People (or "Jackson Whites"). They are a people of mixed Black, Dutch, Indian (and maybe a few others). Several sources say that some of them still speak Jersey Dutch. An interesting site about this subject can be found on http://www.netstrider.com/documents/whites/ A few quotes: That's how I first came to know who the Jackson Whites were - from Willie G. Mann, Jr., my first and best friend. Junior told me stories about these shy, gentle, reclusive mountain people. They kept mostly to them- selves. A lot of the townspeople in the valleys below their homes called them names because they were afraid of them or thought themselves better. Among Junior's many cousins, some were albino. Some had extra fingers or toes. Some had webbed fingers or toes. Some were a bit slow-witted. Some knew Indian medicine. Some spoke proudly of their Tuscarora or Hes- sian or Dutch blood. Some spoke "Jersey Dutch," an old dialect that the newer valley people couldn't understand. Some people said they came from runaway slaves or black whores. Some said they came from traitors and turncoats. Some people called them "Jacks." Others called them "Bockies." It really didn't matter. They were all wrong anyway If there's anyone out there who knows more about this subject (the Dutch language in and around the area once known as New Nether- land), please let me know! Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 19:12:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:12:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] At 07:56 AM 10/16/02 -0700, Avva Andreas (Richard Turner) wrote: > These men of Wautauga and Holston Settlements were organized under >Cols John Sevier and William Walker and Hugh Underwood (buried next-door) >and William Blount, later the first governor of Tennessee. The only >battle of the Revolutionary War that was fought in Frankland was fought >in what is now my back yard. The Treaty of Dumplin Valley was signed two >doors down. Outside my back door is a large cemetery which encompasses the site of the fort from whence 700 British regulars marched on the night of June 5, 1813, and surprised an invading army of 3,000 US regulars in the predawn about seven miles east of here and routed them. Probably the news of this humiliating defeat hasn't reached southern Appalachia yet, eh? > When I write that I am a Southern Appalachian, what you must >understand is that I am neither from Central nor from Northern >Appalachia. Southern Appalachia is the Blue Ridge, the Great Smokies and >the Cumberland Mountains of Virginia, Tennessee, North and South >Carolina, north Georgia and northern Alabama. It has nothing to do with >the Civil War, either. My family were Federalists. We don't say >"you-all." The plural is "yuins." We prefer to be called Ridgerunners or >Mountainfolk. If you're not one of us, please don't use the "H-word." I >had to call a man down for that the other day. Highlander is acceptable, >but not widely used. > It might be supposed that we are a little prickly. > Central Appalachia is Kentucky, parts of Ohio and West Virginia. >Northern Appalachia extends through Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York and >New England. Appalachia all together is a pretty big place with widely >diverging language and folkways. I have an ancestor who fought in the Revolutionary War (what I now prefer to call the First American Civil War, but we all know how prickly yuins are about that) who moved to northern Appalachia after the war, namely to Vermont. In the mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire they still speak a very ancient Anglian dialect. A popular expression in the mountains when strangers stop for directions is "You can't get the-ah from he-ah." The rest of what they have to say is usually pretty unintelligible to flatlanders. > Nice to hear from you, Ed. Yoo too, eh? Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: elsie zinsser ezinsser at icon.co.za Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] Hi all and especially Pat Reynolds, You are saying: << I visited Potsdam (...) I think the buildings probably dated from around the 17th century. (....) Dutch builders who had been brought in with, or were possibly the same people as, Dutch men contracted to dig a canal at Pottsdam>> It might interest you that our Cape Dutch style is very similar to the style of buildings in not only Potsdam but towards the north-east as far as Danzig (Koenigsberg). Regards Elsie Zinsser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 19:14:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:14:50 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: Etymology Hello everyone: From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L Etymology The word OK originated in one of the early 19th century American presidential elections. I think it was that between Harrison and Tyler. Anyway, one of them was described in the election propaganda as being a rough frontiersman, a native of the upstate village of Old Kinderhook, which was a frontier village in his youth. Actually he was no such thing, but was a member of the Dutch patroon class of upstate New York. Anyway, during the course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." It amazes me how the word OK has gained acceptance among speakers of so many languages and at how few people actually know what it means. I'm pretty sure that "Old Kinderhook" was Martin van Buren. Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 19:20:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:20:05 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.16 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.16 (04) [E] about oldfrisian. Hi! About old frisian: >From wim wkv at home.nl Hi! Here is some really really old frisian: Runic inscriptions found in the Netherlands. ======================================================================= About 25 Runic Inscriptions were found in the Netherlands, and specially in Friesland. Some are of Scandinavian origin. 1. Scandinavian coin, 11th century: "kunar amot thisae. (Gunnar owns this stamp). 2. Iron key. Probably Scandinavian: "Anuars" (Anvar). 3. Chess piece. "agerotra:mosel? / mahtelokpaetaerr?? (Machtelt and Peter). 4. Bracket. "foRo glola" 5. Narval tooth, Scandinavian. "thuRh suaerri" (? Sverri). 6. Sword handle, bone. Anglo-Saxon runes. "iethemyka " (the meek). 7. Anglo-Saxon coin. "Eadnoth" (Name of a coin master of King Offa, 757-796 AD) Friesian Runes, found in Flood mounts. ("Terpen"). ======================================================================= Usually written on Taxis wood, a tree which was considered special, bows were made off its wood. A book: "A. Quak, Runica Frisia, in: R.H. Bremmer. Aspects of Old Friesian Philology, AbaeG 31-32, 1990. Page 357-370. 8. On a Bone Comb. "Eda". 9. Miniature sword made out of taxis wood, 6th or 7th century. "Edae : boda" (Ed the postman). 10. Pieces of a walking stick made out of bone, 8th century. "tuda awudukiusthu" (or maybe "awadukirithu". (Tuda). 11. Taxis stick, 6th century. "Thiniaeberetdud / [.]n : biridmi" (this taxis always bares, .n bares me). 12. Pen made out of horse bone. "iligliu". 13. Solidus. "skanomodu" Friesian, or English. 14. Bag for a comb. "Murae". 15. Bone name tag, 6th or 7th century. "i : aehae : k" (I am Ahe). 16. Gold coin 6th, century. "hada". 17. Comb made out of deer antler, 7th century. "xnli" (Miedema). 18. Comb bag. "l, and upside down l" (laguR, water, sea). 19. Comb made out of deer antler, 8th, or 9th century. "aelb kabu deda habuku". (Alb did the comb for Habuku). 20. Handle for a sword or knife, 8th, or 9th century. "ekumaeditoka". (I the un-maimed grabbed the sword). 21. Solidus, 6th century. "weladu" (Weland). 22. Weave sword, taxis wood. "adugislu : meth gisuhidu" . (Adugisl goes with Gisuhilde). 23. Taxis stick, maybe a prayer stick, 8th century. "ophaemu gistnda aemluth / iwim ostaehthuaen / iwiosustduaele". (At Opheim takes a stand Hamlet, with taxis sticks a favor you get, with this taxis do us a favor always" 24. Piece of bone. "inguR ngR" (?Ing). 25. Gold hanger, 600 AD "hiwi". There are more.for example, a joker wrote "FM" on an old piece of bone."Fries Museum". However, these are probably fake. For more information I advise e-mailing the Fries Museum. http://www.friesmuseum.nl/ Well, that's all I could find about old frisian. I hope thqat was of some help. http://www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/Runic.htm this page is also stored on my web page. (Runic.htm) Moi! Wim [Verdoold] (32) From: Veturlidi Oskarsson Subject: Old Frisian Hello, I am new on the list and don't know what you have been discussing, so I might be asking something that already has been answered. I wanted to ask if anybody could tell me about the sources to Old Frisian. In dictionaries, the period of Old Frisian is usually 1270-1500. But are there no older sources to the Frisian language than from the late 13th century? Greetings, Veturlidi Oskarsson, University of Uppsala ---------- From: Pat Reynolds Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] >From: Marco Evenhuis >Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] > >Thomas writes about the 'Dutch patroon class' >and Old Kinderhook. Maybe it's nice to know >for people interested in Dutch language and >culture in the eastern states of the USA that an >archaic form of Dutch (Jersey Dutch, Albany >Dutch, Mohawk Dutch or Schoharie Dutch; >there might have been differences between these >varieties) was still spoken there well into the >19th century in northern New Jersey and upstate >New York, including Kinderhook. C.T. Gehring's _The Dutch Language in Colonial New York; An Investigation of a Language in Decline_ (1976) might be of interest to you. I would like to know more about the different dialects of Dutch used in the US, as I'd like to see if they can be related to different building traditions. Best wishes, Pat -- Pat Reynolds pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years time" (T. Pratchett) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 19:22:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:22:31 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.10.16 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: witchlore and Appalachian songs Hi all! Richard doubts there were any real witches in Appalachia in early times - and who am I to argue - he lives there! I only point out there was plenty of LORE about them. For instance - a witch would complain soup was salty if even one grain of salt was in the bowl full. An iron horseshoe over the door might scare her off. She wouldn't touch real silverware either. One county in south west Virginia was said to be "thick as fleas" with witches at the time of the civil war (war between the states) - but Richard might observe - shore - they're allus in the NEXT holler - never in yorin. Do any other Lowlanders have traditional witch lore? We are getting into the Halloween season after all. Four more CDs I can wholeheartedly recommend for true Appalachian English: 1. "Nothing Seems Better To Me" The Frank Warner Collection Volume II Appleseed Recordings 2. "Doug and Jack Wallin: Family Songs and Stories from the North Carolina Mountains" Smithsonian Folkways CD 40013 3.&4 Southern Journey Volumes 1 and 2 Songs From the Southern Mountains: The Alan Lomax Collection Rounder CD 1701 and 1702 and three more videos: 1. "Appalachian Journey" Vestapol 13079 2. "Shady Grove" Vestapol 13071 3. "Legends of Old Time Music" Vestapol 13026 Finally, August House has produced a nice casette tape "Ozark Ghost Stories" told by Richard Alan Young and Judy Dockery Young. Don't be a feared of no haints now George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.10.16 (10) [E] Dear George, You probably know of it, being very well informed! but there is a famous and documented case of what we used to call a witch in Tennessee. I refer of course to the Bell Witch. This spirit wasn't any sort of human, as witches are thought of now, but was a haint or booger of some terrible sort that plagued the Bell family back some time in the 19th century. It was even the cause of a death or two! This difference, the witch as haint instead of human, is a peculiarity of our local speech and folkways. And thanks again for recommending more resources. Your shelves must be really interesting! Yours, Avva Andreas (Richard Turner) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:40 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Architecture" 2002.10.16 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Pat Reynolds Subject: LL-L "Buildings" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] In message <01a101c27547$fed51360$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>, >Elsie Zinsser writes >of buildings in not only Potsdam but towards the north-east as far as Danzig >(Koenigsberg). > Hi Elsie, I've definitely seen Short Wall Anchor construction in Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Indonesia, Latvia, the Netherlands, the Netherlands Antilles, Norway, Poland, the Republic of South Africa, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States (mostly in photographs - I wish I had the budget to visit all these places). Less definitely, they may be seen in Austria, Canada (in a Huguenot building), Ghana, India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka and Surinam. There may also be buildings in Brazil, China (Formosa), Guinea, Iran, and Japan. In other words, they can be found in areas which were colonised or traded with by people from the Low Countries. So far I've really only explored the WIC and VOC colonisation - I really should check out the Belgian Congo! I found that I knew a bit more about the Pottsdam houses: The terraced houses of the Holländisches Viertel (Dutch Quarter), Potsdam, Germany were built to the designs of Johann Bourmann the Elder (Büttner and Meissner _Town Houses of Europe_, 1983, fig 198). With best wishes to all, Pat -- Pat Reynolds pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years time" (T. Pratchett) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (08) [E] Thomas Byro wrote: > Anyway, during the > course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the > election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." Kevin Browne replied: > I'm pretty sure that "Old Kinderhook" was Martin van Buren. I remember reading somewhere that not only Martin van Buren was indeed "Old Kinderhook", the word OK actually came from the fact that he signed most docu- ments with the abreveation of his nick name, O.K. Regards, Marco ---------- From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (08) [E] At 12:14 PM 10/16/02 -0700, Thomas Byro wrote: >The word OK originated in one of the early 19th century American >presidential elections. Actually, this is only one hypothesis among many, and should be presented that way, unless, of course, you have some information which substantiates this. Frankly, I think it's quite a leap from an abbreviation of an election moniker to a universally used particle of confirmation. Why, for example, didn't something like this happen with Abraham Lincoln, who was known as "Old Abe". I don't think anyone ever started saying, "he is A.B." >I think it was that between Harrison and Tyler. >Anyway, one of them was described in the election propaganda as being a >rough frontiersman, a native of the upstate village of Old Kinderhook, which >was a frontier village in his youth. Actually he was no such thing, but was >a member of the Dutch patroon class of upstate New York. Anyway, during the >course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the >election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." It >amazes me how the word OK has gained acceptance among speakers of so many >languages and at how few people actually know what it means. I'm not going to look this up, but I think that Tyler was Harrison's Vice Presidential running mate. Harrison was a great treaty breaker and scourge of the Midwestern Indians, and fought a battle with them on the Tippecanoe River in present day Indiana just before the War of 1812 broke out. Even though Harrison technically lost the battle, it was spun otherwise in the white press and he became known as Tippecanoe, hence their election slogan: Tippecanoe and Tyler, Too. Hard to picture a man with the last name of Harrison as being a member of the upstate New York patroons, too. Ed Alexander ---------- From: erek gass Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] I'm astonished that this "OK" business resurfaces SO often. There are two possible (and both plausible) explanations for the rise of "OK" (or "okay", if you prefer). One is that cited below (except it should be noted that it refers to James Van Buren, who lived at, Kinderhook NY and was sometimes called "Old Kinderhook" (abbreviated "OK"). The explanation is that Germans immigrants working in factories checked the merchandise, and if were acceptable marked it "All Correct", but, "being immigrants", and thus not knowing the language well used "OK" because "all correct" sounded to them like "oll korrect". I personally doubt this latter explanation because the German equivalent of "all" is spelt pretty much like its English cousin. Perhaps somewhere some old document will be found that reallyh attests to the origin of the word. Till then, it really remains very speculative. Erek ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:47 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:47 -0700 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] On Wednesday 16 October 2002 13:12, Ed wrote: > I have an ancestor who fought in the Revolutionary War (what I now prefer > to call the First American Civil War, but we all know how prickly yuins are > about that) who moved to northern Appalachia after the war, namely to > Vermont. ? Yeah, well to quote from a website listing the early settlers of Sand Lake, NY, http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyrensse/sandlake.htm "Bowman, John (said to have been unpopular "because of his supposed sympathy with the mother-country during the Revolutionary struggle")" I've seen the old county history that reference probably comes from. It doesn't take in account the anglization of many of the names, and the fact that 'Sand Lake' was, and still is, more an area than a settlement. When he moved out there from town it was more a lack of sympathy with either side in a war that didn't concern him. > In the mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire they still speak a > very ancient Anglian dialect. ?A popular expression in the mountains when > strangers stop for directions is "You can't get the-ah from he-ah." ?The > rest of what they have to say is usually pretty unintelligible to > flatlanders. Rensselaer county adjoins Vermont, and i have lived in both Vermont and New Hampshire also. It's only a couple of hundred mile square to encompass the whole area. I never really thought of it as a dialect, especially an ancient Anglian one. The vowels just got a little flatter as you went east. In fact, when i was out hiking Sunday, a couple asked me if they would get to the trailhead the way they were going. They had crossed a ridge and were going 180 degrees in the wrong direction. There was no way they could have continued in that drainage and gotten to their car without a very long detour -- I really used just that phrase, 'you can't get there from here'. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:50 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] Marco I lived in Ringwood in northern New Jersey for years. I used to know many of the Jackson Whites personally. Although family names like vanZutphen, Onderdonk, deGroat, vanDunk, etc. predominate, I never came across anyione who spoke other than English. But their population ranges through some pretty wild areas, so who knows. Many of the ones I knew made a living in questionable ways, such as "jacking" deer (I know a bar in Wanaque with an enormous meat locker where one can sell such meat). They are universally proud of their ability to shoot and to hunt. Their favorite watering hole, by the way, is a bar in the remote mountains operated by a man from Bremen, Walter Fahloh. Walter calls the place "Walters Mountain Rest.' There is a big sign out, "Wellcome Old Bastards." There is a shooting range out back and Jackson White mountain men come in toting their guns. Some come in barefoot. If you ask Walter for a shot of "mellow Corn", he will bring an unlabelled bottle out from under the counter and serve you homemade schnapps so powerful that I swear it will take the paint off a car. I attended a lecture at Ringwood Manor, given by the local historical society years ago on the origin of the Jackson Whites. According to the lecturer, the name originated with a man named Jackson, who got as contract to supply 200 prostitutes to the English army in New York during the revolutionary war. He got some prostitutes to volunteer off the streets of london but got nowhere the total that he needed. So, he started kidnapping women, and brought his total up to 100. For the remainder, he bught 100 slaves and set off for New York. The women were kept in a stockade and were abandoned when the English lost the war and had to break out. Everywhere they went they were shooed off by farmers with guns, so they made their way across the Hudson River to northern New Jersy, an area that was inhabbited by Dutch bandits who had intermarried with Indians. They intermarried with these people and thus were born the Jackson Whites. My brother still lives in that area and he informed that that the Jackson Whites had recently been classified as the Ramapo Indian tribe. By the way, I heard of another remote population originating in Scotland who live near Bear Mountain, NY. Reportedly they speak a form of English that no one can understand and they also live by hunting and who knows what else. Reportedly many also go baefoot. Tom ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] On Wednesday 16 October 2002 10:26, Marco wrote: > If there's anyone out there who knows more > about this subject (the Dutch language in and > around the area once known as New Nether- > land), please let me know! I can only answer in the negative. I grew up in Wynantskill, NY, which was one of the small villages formed from Rensselaerwyck, which is the present day Rensselaer county. The Dutch Reformed church dated back to 1794, although the present building is newer. The old church was still there when I was a kid, but had almost reached 'haunted house status' In my family, my paternal grandmother was the last person who could speak anything but English. Unfortunately, I was very young when she died, so I no idea what dialect it was. Some phrases and words remained, but that was about it. For instance, I was in my teens before I knew what 'chives' were. i'd eaten a lot of Schnittlau though. Many of the place names reflected the heritage, though many were really more German than Dutch, like Berlin, Alps, Nassau. Some were Anglicized, like the Greenbushes. Wynantskill and Poestenkill survived, I think, because those were the name of the creeks also. Even the term 'Dutch' was applied more in the sense of Deutsch, rather than strictly implying Dutch. When I went back for my mother's funeral, the minister in the church was from the Netherlands. (I don't think Dutch Reformed ministers are churned out by US seminaries anymore, though the one when I was growing up did come from pennsylvania). As far as I know, there was no one in the church that could speak to the minister in his native language. There may have been other pockets where Dutch survived. Rensselaer was rural, and some of the villages were quite isolated, so one would think it would be there, if anyplace. To reference the 'history' thread, this area definitely is northern Appalachia, with all the clanishness and conservatism of the southern mountains, except it is Dutch/German rather than Scotch/Irish/British. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Robert, Your grandmother's _Schnittlau_ apparently corresponds to Standard German _Schnittlauch_ (literally "cut(ting) leek/onion:) 'chive(s)'. There are many names for it in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), depending on the dialect: _Beesslook_, _Beessluuk_, _Beslack_, _Beslook_, _Bieslack_, _Bieslook_, _Graslook_, _Schnittlow_, _Sneelook_, _Snittlook_, _Snittlow_, _Snittsippel_, _Snittziepel_, _Snittzipoll_, _Snittzippel_. Dutch has _bieslook_. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 23:25:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:25:25 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Szelog, Mike Subject: History Hello all, On Wednesday 16 October 2002 13:12, Ed wrote: > In the mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire they still speak a > very ancient Anglian dialect. ?A popular expression in the mountains when > strangers stop for directions is "You can't get the-ah from he-ah." ?The > rest of what they have to say is usually pretty unintelligible to > flatlanders. I live in NH and have been to some pretty rural places in the state as well as Vermont and Maine. I've never thought of our "accent" as an ancient Anglian dialect. I believe our speech to be more of an accent than true dialect, though there are certainly true "dialect" words. One feature of our speech which is usually universally quoted is our "post-vocalic r deletion"; the preceding vowel tends to become lengthened and in a two (or more) syllable word, can actually "evolve", if you will, into a pure glide, either a front or back glide depending on the surrounding vowels. For example, 'there' can become 'THEY-ah' and 'door' can become 'DOH-ah'. Syllables in caps indicate stress. We do indeed have a very lilting, somewhat sing-song quality to our speech (if spoken very broadly) and it is VERY difficult for people "from away" to imitate. People can learn how to properly pronounce a word in our accent, but when it comes time to say an entire sentence, well, let's just say if you weren't born here, you'll never quite get it! I'm really not sure where this sing-song/lilting quality comes from, though I strongly suspect it's a sort of remnant/carry-over from the very early Irish/Scots settlers in New England. Generally, the further "Down East" you go (that is, the further to the north east, particularly in Maine), the broader the accent becomes. When spoken fast, it can seem pretty unintelligible to those not accustomed to it! Mike Szelog Manchester (Manch'stah), NH ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 23:26:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:26:57 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Szelog, Mike Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (05) [E] Thomas and Robert, thanks for the information! Thomas wrote: > I lived in Ringwood in northern New Jersey for years. I used to know many > of the Jackson Whites personally. Although family names like vanZutphen, > Onderdonk, deGroat, vanDunk, etc. predominate, I never came across anyione > who spoke other than English. But their population ranges through some > pretty wild areas, so who knows. Many of the ones I knew made a living in > questionable ways, such as "jacking" deer (I know a bar in Wanaque with an > enormous meat locker where one can sell such meat). They are universally > proud of their ability to shoot and to hunt. I already thought it would be very questionable that these people would still speak a language that had died out almost a century earlier in all neighbouring valleys. Nevertheless there should be a whole chapter about the language of the Jackson Whites in a book called 'The Ramapo Mountain People' by a David S. Cohen. That should be worth checking out, since I found some remarks on the internet as "In New Jersey there is a language that is a version of Flemish mixed with English, plus a few animal & plant terms from Lenape-Delaware Indian, called 'Jersey Dutch.' The variant spoken by the Mountain People is called 'nêxer däuts,' that is, 'Negro Dutch' (see Cohen, "The Ramapo Moun- tain People," Rutgers Univ Press, 1974, pp 142- 143)". I take it that traces of this Jersey Dutch dialect can still be found in the speech of the Jackson Whites. > I attended a lecture at Ringwood Manor, given by the local historical > society years ago on the origin of the Jackson Whites. According to the > lecturer, the name originated with a man named Jackson, who got as contract > to supply 200 prostitutes to the English army in New York during the > revolutionary war. He got some prostitutes to volunteer off the streets of > london but got nowhere the total that he needed. So, he started kidnapping > women, and brought his total up to 100. For the remainder, he bught 100 > slaves and set off for New York. > The women were kept in a stockade and were abandoned when the English lost > the war and had to break out. Everywhere they went they were shooed off by > farmers with guns, so they made their way across the Hudson River to > northern New Jersy, an area that was inhabbited by Dutch bandits who had > intermarried with Indians. They intermarried with these people and thus > were born the Jackson Whites. As far as I know, that is only one of the theories. Another theory says that the name 'Jackson Whites' actually stand for ''Jacks and Whites" ('jacks' referring to the term 'freed blacks'). > My brother still lives in that area and he informed that that the Jackson > Whites had recently been classified as the Ramapo Indian tribe. According to their official website at www.ramapoughmountainindians.com they are not yet classified as Indians, but have been trying to convince the Bureau of Indian Affairs that they are Indians since 1978. Strange to see the name of their current chief: Walter 'Silent Wolf' Van Dunk! Finally, a question for Robert Bowman: when did your paternal grandmother die? I have already found that Jersey Dutch was at least spoken fluently untill about 1940 by a few last speakers. And as late as 1964 a James Storms (born in 1888) compiled "A Jersey Dutch Vocabulary" (published by the Pascack Historical So- ciety). He drew upon his own memory of what he had heard as a child and that of other elderly in Bergen County, NJ. Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 23:31:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:31:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Folklorel" 2002.10.16 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] Hi! It was great to hear from Richard on the Bell witch. Sorry I mixed up the free state of Franklin with the free states of Jones and Winston which were civil war phenomena. I found that the counties of Ashe, Watauga, and Allegheny (possibly also Yadkin?) in western North Carolina were so isolated they were sometimes called the Lost Provinces. Major James Grayson organized union volunteers from this region - and I guess that is where I got confused. There is an excellent article on "Music From The Lost Provinces" (Old Time String Bands 1927-1931) on the web as liner notes from a 1997 CD by this title (which I don't have yet), but which is available from County sales, Elderly Instruments and Roots&Rhythm. Grayson's nephew, G.B. became a famous fiddler. I also stumbled on an ad for a new book - Enemies of the Country New Perspectives on Unionists in the Civil War South edited by John C. Inscoe and Robert Kenzer for the University of Georgia press. It contains articles both on the Appalachian unionists and on the Texas German unionists. The haunting old Scots ghost ballad The Wife of Usher's Well survives in North America as "The Lady Gay".It has often been collected in the Appalachians and Ozarks. To show you how easy it is to argue about the presence of supernatural elements, the meaning of the lines: "There was a lady and a lady gay And children she had three She sent them away to a northern school To learn their gramaree" are disputed. Does gramaree mean the innocent "grammar" or the sinister "gramercy" (sorcery?) It is a bit like conspiracy theories - depending on the eye of the beholder. Best wishes to all George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 23:35:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:35:34 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (09) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] > From: erek gass > Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] > > I'm astonished that this "OK" business resurfaces SO often. There are two > possible (and both plausible) explanations for the rise of "OK" (or "okay", > if you prefer). A brief research on the web revealed that there are many explanations. But most widely accepted seems to be the explanation that both the BBC and Merrian Webster agree on. In brief: Just before the 1840 election it became fashionable to use misspelled abbreviations such as "O.K." for "all correct", or "O.W" for "all right". In the 1840 election the Democrats founded an OK Club to support "Old Kinderhook" Martin van Buren, likely with an eye to the popular "O.K". Though it didn't help the candidate, it is believed to have helped "O.K." to become widely used. Regards Ansgar BTW: Here are some URLs I found: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A704521 http://www.m-w.com/mw/mw/textonly/whist/ok.htm http://www.wordorigins.org/wordoro.htm http://www.zeit.de/stimmts/Sprachliches/1997_36_stimmts.html ---------- From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] At 07:52 AM 10/17/02 -0700, erek gass wrote: >I'm astonished that this "OK" business resurfaces SO often. There are two >possible (and both plausible) explanations for the rise of "OK" (or "okay", >if you prefer). Actually, there's a lot more than two. Here's a reprint of the submission from T. Dale Nicklas of May 13, 1997: Subject: Origin of Okay I once tried to find the origin of okay, without success; generally I found that the origin was considered unknown. My dictionary suggests it comes from the Democratic political organization, the O.K. Club, named for Old Kinderhook, Martin van Buren, which would therefore apparantly make it Lowlandic in origin. However, it is attested several years earlier, so it appears more likely that the choice of name based on van Buren's nickname was reinforced by the already existing okay. My great-aunt Gurtrude told me many years ago that the origin was Choctaw Indian, and that this expression came into English as a result of a communication between an American officer and a Choctaw ally in one of the Indian wars in the late 1700s or early 1800s. This fits with the apparently American origin of the word, and is certainly plausible, as I will describe. Choctaw has a number of particles which may end a sentence. These particles mark a sentence as a certain type of question, or a certain type of command, or a certain type of statement. One of them is _oke_, as it is spelled in Choctaw, which is emphatic. This sounds just like okay, without the y; that is, long e much as in Dutch ee, with a prominent high to mid falling pitch. For example, _Pinsa li tuk_ "I saw him," but _Pinsa li tuk oke!_ "I DID see him." Similarly, _Eho pakna chih_ "We will defeat them," but _Eho pakna chih oke!_ "We WILL defeat them." In particular it can be used to express emphatic assent. Coming as it does at the end of sentences, where it will be followed by a pause, it is often a prominent feature of Choctaw speech; a non-speaker will hear Bababababa oke! Babababababa oke! Babababababa oke! It is not difficult to see how the American officers would pick this up, as it would be a prominent, identifiable, repeated word in a stream of otherwise incomprehensible babble. So maybe it is Choctaw Indian. Dale Nicklas Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: W. Jaap Engelsman Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] Beste Lowlanders, (Unfortunately, I do not have the time to translate this into English.) Dit is niet de enige nieuwsgroep waarin telkens weer de vraag naar de geschiedenis van "O.K." opduikt. Er wordt nogal eens gesuggereerd dat de ene theorie niet beter is dan de andere, en dat er nooit behoorlijk onderzoek naar is gedaan. Maar al in 1963-1964 heeft Allen Walker Read hieraan vijf diepgravende artikelen gewijd in "American Speech". Op basis van onder meer die vijf artikelen is de kwestie (zeer kort) samengevat door Ewoud Sanders in zijn "Geoniemenwoordenboek" (Amsterdam 1996). Hieronder geeft ik zijn tekst, met aan het slot de geraadpleegde literatuur, voor wie er het fijne van wil weten. Jaap Engelsman O.K., okay Wie zich verdiept in de herkomst van het woord "okay", trekt een beerput open. Op de bodem daarvan ligt een enorme stapel papier. Er bestaan zeker dertig verschillende verklaringen voor deze uitdrukking. Zij zou afgeleid zijn van het Franse "au quai" 'op de kade', van de Haïtiaanse havenplaats Aux Cayes, of van de Indianentaal Choctaw, waarin "oke" staat voor 'het is zo'. Er zijn verklaringen die okay afleiden uit het Deens, Duits, Schots en Afrikaans. Ook wordt okay in verband gebracht met allerlei personen met de initialen O.K. Met de Amerikaanse spoorwegbeambte Obadiah Kelly bijvoorbeeld, die ieder pakket dat hij in ontvangst nam met zijn initialen bestempelde. En met Old Keokuk, een indianenhoofdman die enkele verdragen met 'O.K.' ondertekende. Voeg daar nog een flinke stoet O.K.-ers aan toe: Amerikanen, Duitsers, Engelsen en vele anderen, en de chaos is compleet. Gelukkig is er iemand die al deze theorieën uitgebreid heeft onderzocht. In 1963 en 1964 publiceerde de Amerikaanse hoogleraar Allen Walker Read een reeks van vijf artikelen -- te zamen goed voor 104 dichtbedrukte pagina's -- in het tijdschrift "American Speech". Al voor Read hadden verschillende wetenschappers hun tanden in okay gezet; na Read nog een paar, maar geen enkele theorie is zo overtuigend als die van hem. Wat wil het geval? De inwoners van de Amerikaanse stad Boston gaven zich in de zomer van 1838 met passie over aan het spelen met afkortingen. Het meest geliefd waren O.F.M. voor "Our First Men", N.G. voor "No Go", en S.P. voor "Small Potatoes". Read geeft hiervan een indrukwekkende hoeveelheid voorbeelden uit kranten uit die tijd. Vaak spelde men de woorden ook nog eens opzettelijk verkeerd: zo stond de afkorting O.W. voor "Oll Wright". "Oll wright" wordt beschouwd als de directe voorganger van O.K. Deze afkorting is voor het eerst aangetroffen in de "Boston Morning Post" van 23 maart 1839, in een artikel van Charles Gordon Greene. O.K. stond hier voor "Oll Korrect", een opzettelijke verschrijving van "all correct". Die zomer waaide de afkortingenrage over naar New York. In de herfst van 1839 raakte New Orleans geïnfecteerd. De afkorting O.K. reisde mee, zoals Read omstandig aantoont. Maar waar blijft nu de plaatsnaam [het is immers een geoniemenwoordenboek, JE]? Die houdt direct verband met Martin Van Buren (1782-1862), indertijd Democratisch president van de Verenigde Staten. Van Buren was in 1837 tot president gekozen. Hij was geboren in Kinderhook, een dorpje in de staat New York dat in de 17de eeuw door Nederlanders was gesticht. Zijn bijnaam luidde 'The Fox of Kinderhook'. De afkorting O.K. voor 'Oll Korrect' was ongetwijfeld in vergetelheid geraakt, als zij niet zo'n voorname plaats had gekregen in de felle politieke campagne van 1840. Whigs (voorlopers van de Republikeinen) en Democraten zochten naar nieuwe slogans en probeerden zich tegen elkaars aanvallen te verweren. De Democraten grepen daarbij terug op een oud recept: zij neutraliseerden scheldnamen door ze tot geuzennaam te verheffen. Behalve voor 'de vos uit Kinderhook' werd president Van Buren uitgemaakt voor 'de tovenaar uit Kinderhook' en 'the Dutchman of Kinderhook' en 'Old Kinderhook'. De Democraten kozen nu Old Kinderhook tot geuzennaam. Op 23 maart 1840 richten zij "The Democratic O.K. club" op, om Van Buren te helpen aan een tweede termijn. O.K. werd een slogan, een strijdkreet. Aanvankelijk werd de betekenis geheim gehouden, maar na twee maanden verklaarden de Democraten dat het stond voor Old Kinderhook. Tegen die tijd hadden de Whigs zelf ook al een verklaring verzonnen. 'O.K. -- Velen vragen zich af wat de betekenis van de mysterieuze letters is', schreef een Whig op 2 april 1840 in de "Daily Express". 'Welnu, het is Arabisch, moet andersom worden gelezen en betekent "kicked out": uit het presidentiële paleis.' Later kwamen ze met nog allerlei andere verklaringen, zoals: Off to Kinderhook, Orful Katastrophe, Oll Krying en een reeks die begon met Out of... gevolgd door onder andere Kash, Karacter, Kredit, Klothes en Klients. Even hadden de Democraten spijt van hun nieuwe slogan, maar ze besloten eraan vast te houden. De daarop volgende campagne was zo hevig dat de uitdrukking O.K. zich als een olievlek over het land verbreidde. Niet dat dit Martin Van Buren aan de overwinning hielp. 'De Vos van Kinderhook' werd in 1840 overtuigend verslagen door William Henry Harrison. Maar taalkundig gezien was Van Burens campagne een groot succes: O.K. begon aan een zegetocht die uiteindelijk aan het Nederlands de begrippen "okay, oké, okee, okido" en het wanstaltige "okidoki" zou toevoegen. In 1848 deed Van Buren nog een gooi naar het presidentschap. Toen dat niet lukte, trok hij zich terug in Kinderhook, zijn onbetekenende geboortedorp, dat bijdroeg aan de populariteit van een afkorting die internationaal miljoenen keren per minuut wordt gebezigd. Bronnen: Storfer "Wörter und ihre Schicksale" (1935) 303-306; "American Speech" (verder "Am. Sp.") 7 (1942) 126-128; Mencken "American Language" (4th ed. 1947) 205-208; Allen Walker Read, 'The first stage in the history of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 28.1 (1963) 5-27; Idem, 'The second stage in the history of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 28.2 (1963) 83-102; Idem, 'The folklore of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 29.1 (1964) 5-25; Idem, 'Later stages in the history of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 29.2 (1964) 83-101; Idem, 'Successive revisions in the explanation of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 29.4 (1964) 243-267; "Am. Sp." 31 (1966) 238; 'The etymology of "ok" again', in: "Am. Sp." 40 (1975) 333-335; F.G. Cassidy 'OK is it African?', in: "Am. Sp." 46 (1981) 269-273; Hendrickson "Dict. eponyms" (1985) 239; Rey-Debove "Dictionnaire des anglicismes" (2nd ed. 1990) 640-641; "Merriam-Webster new book of word histories" (1991) 329-331; OED (2nd ed. 1993). ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 03:39:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:39:45 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.17 (10) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] >From: Thomas Byro >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Language varieties > >Tom, > >If you can point me in the direction of any concrete sources about a Jewish >language variety based on a Lowlands language, please do so by all means, >because I have been looking for such information a long time. I have >searched through all kinds of materials and collections, have read all kinds >of books about Jewish languages (including books in Yiddish and Hebrew), >have asked on this list and on Mendele (a Yiddish-focused list), and I have >never come across any evidence of a Continental-Lowlands-based Jewish >language variety. Hello Ron ! Let me quote from a today's newspaper essay (Ostfriesische Nachrichten, Aurich): ...Dar muss ik an de Markten in Auerk denken. An de Saathoffs, de Go"tzens, Junkmanns, Ju"rgens, Endjers, Wendelings - tell man up. Wat harren de fo"o"r 'n Prooteree togang. Dat kunn ok 'n Plattdu"tschen hast nich verstahn, umdat in ho"r Veehannels-Platt ok 'n bu"lt Utdru"cken van de jo"dsche Hannelslu" mit in weer. Is 'n Jammer, dat dat noit to Papier brocht is. Nu is 't to laat, dat jo"dsch-ostfreesk Hannelsplatt is verga"ten... (When I remember the market-days in Aurich, the ~following several names of former stock-sellers families~ list them - what kind of talk did they. That almost wasn't capable for Low-Saxon-speakers because that stock-sellers- Platt was mixed up with expressions of Jewish tradesmen. It's a pity that this never has been recorded on paper. Now it is too late. The Jewish-East- Frisian trades-Platt is forgotten.) I've heard about this special language used by both Jewish and Non-Jewish stock-sellers from old people also. Besides this there was a kind of Yiddish spoken in Eastern Friesland which wasn't Low Saxon based but heavily mixed. For this some single paper-record exist. Kind regards Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Ik dank Di, Holger. Wenn Du in de Tokumst wat mehr vun de Saak hören schullst, wöörd' ik Di groten Dank weten, wenn Du mi dat tostüern deest. Grötens un Kumpelmenten in 't Huus! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] On Thursday 17 October 2002 17:26, Marco wrote: > Finally, a question for Robert Bowman: > when did your paternal grandmother > die? I have already found that Jersey > Dutch was at least spoken fluently untill > about 1940 by a few last speakers. I would put it around 1953. I was only five or six at the time, not that my memory for dates has gotten any better. I think it was personal conservatism on her part. Her sister, my great-aunt lived quite a bit longer so I was older when we would visit her. She lived sort of a primitive life in a beach cottage in Connecticut after her husband died and was the picture of a crusty old Yankee. I was one of those unexpected births, so my parents were born in 1899 and 1904. My father and uncle retained a few words and phrases. They were a little coy about the translations; when i took German in highschool they would send me off to school with what were probably some choice words. Fortunately, or unfortunately maybe, between the dialect and the idiomatic expressions the Hochdeutsch professor couldn't figure them out. I regret now that I didn't press for more details and speak more to some of the older people in the village, but kids are kids. There may have been some reluctance, too. Although it never really took, many of the place names had been officially changed during the war, as well as some surnames, and there was some degree of trying to distance yourself from anything remotely Germanic. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 03:41:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:41:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.17 (11) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (09) [D/E] At 04:35 PM 10/17/02 -0700, W. Jaap Engelsman wrote: >Dit is niet de enige nieuwsgroep waarin telkens weer de vraag naar de >geschiedenis van "O.K." opduikt. Er wordt nogal eens gesuggereerd dat de ene >theorie niet beter is dan de andere, en dat er nooit behoorlijk onderzoek >naar is gedaan. Maar al in 1963-1964 heeft Allen Walker Read hieraan vijf >diepgravende artikelen gewijd in "American Speech". etc. Sorry, I can only read Dutch, not write or speak it. I was very glad to finally see some substantiation of the Old Kinderhook derivation of Okay, and it shows how the rage of using abbreviations at the time was perhaps the catalyst. Fortunately, this seems to have died out by the time of Lincoln twenty years later, so the world isn't saying, Abee after every sentence. However, I still like the Choctaw language theory, since the word not only sounds the same, it fulfills an almost identical (or at least very, very similar) function. Since this was such a very good article, perhaps someone should take the time to translate it for the non-Dutch readers. Although, one of the great things about this List is NOT getting everything in English and MAKING yourself learn to read some other Lowlands languages, okay? Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 03:43:20 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:43:20 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.17 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] On Thursday 17 October 2002 17:25, Mike Szelog wrote: > I've never thought of our "accent" as an ancient Anglian dialect. I believe > our speech to be more of an accent than true dialect, though there are > certainly true "dialect" words. Ayuh.. I lived in Dovuh (Dover) NH and Bristah (Bristol) VT, as well as traveling throughout the area and the little looseness with the last syllable really was the only thing different from my upstate NY accent. Perhaps it was just my familiarity, but I don't even recall that many colorful regionalisms. I wouldn't think anyone would have a problem understanding the language. In contrast, I've been in areas of rural Georgia where I had to frequently ask the speakers, especially older people, to repeat themselves and even then had difficulty. I don't know what the roots of the dialect are, but it is well beyond 'southern accent'. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 14:35:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:35:31 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] At 04:25 PM 10/17/02 -0700, Szelog, Mike wrote: >I live in NH and have been to some pretty rural places in the state as well >as Vermont and Maine. > >I've never thought of our "accent" as an ancient Anglian dialect. I believe >our speech to be more of an accent than true dialect, though there are >certainly true "dialect" words. > >One feature of our speech which is usually universally quoted is our >"post-vocalic r deletion"; the preceding vowel tends to become lengthened >and in a two (or more) syllable word, can actually "evolve", if you will, >into a pure glide, either a front or back glide depending on the >surrounding vowels. For example, 'there' can become 'THEY-ah' and 'door' can >become 'DOH-ah'. Syllables in caps indicate stress. > >We do indeed have a very lilting, somewhat sing-song quality to our speech >(if spoken very broadly) and it is VERY difficult for people "from away" to >imitate. People can learn how to properly pronounce a word in our accent, >but when it comes time to say an entire sentence, well, let's just say if >you weren't born here, you'll never quite get it! I'm really not sure where >this sing-song/lilting quality comes from, though I strongly suspect it's a >sort of remnant/carry-over from the very early Irish/Scots settlers in New >England. Generally, the further "Down East" you go (that is, the further to >the north east, particularly in Maine), the broader the accent becomes. >From what I've read, the accent came into the area from the original settlers in Boston, Massachusetts, who everyone pretty much agrees spoke with an East Anglian accent. Note that the original Boston is in Anglia. The characteristics of this speech go far beyond the non-rhotic characteristics, but apply to a fairly distinct way of pronouncing all of the vowels, compared to most other English dialects or accents. To use non-technical terms, what non-Anglian dialects pronounce as cot, sounds like the way an Anglian would say the word spelled cart, whereas they would say the word cot and the non-Anglian speaker would hear "caught". Similarly "lark" <> "lock" and so forth. The "a" is also generally much longer in Anglian. And I'm sure there's many other distinctions. Some scholars relate the accents of East London (Cockney), Australia, New York, Chicago, and all of New England to this dialect. When I say that what I hear the indigenous people speak in the mountains of Vermont is an "ancient" Anglian dialect, I mean that it sounds much less modified than what I hear people in Boston or New York speak. Tell me, Mike, do folks in yoa paht of the country say "shoa" afta practically evry sentence they way they do in Vumont? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 17:58:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:58:37 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Szelog, Mike Subject: Language Varieties Hi Ed and all, On 10/18/02, Ed wrote: "From what I've read, the accent came into the area from the original settlers in Boston, Massachusetts, who everyone pretty much agrees spoke with an East Anglian accent. Note that the original Boston is in Anglia. The characteristics of this speech go far beyond the non-rhotic characteristics, but apply to a fairly distinct way of pronouncing all of the vowels, compared to most other English dialects or accents. To use non-technical terms, what non-Anglian dialects pronounce as cot, sounds like the way an Anglian would say the word spelled cart, whereas they would say the word cot and the non-Anglian speaker would hear "caught". Similarly "lark" <> "lock" and so forth. The "a" is also generally much longer in Anglian. And I'm sure there's many other distinctions. Some scholars relate the accents of East London (Cockney), Australia, New York, Chicago, and all of New England to this dialect. When I say that what I hear the indigenous people speak in the mountains of Vermont is an "ancient" Anglian dialect, I mean that it sounds much less modified than what I hear people in Boston or New York speak. Tell me, Mike, do folks in yoa paht of the country say "shoa" afta practically evry sentence they way they do in Vumont?" Now I see what you're getting at! Yes, I do agree. We do indeed have a very unique way of pronouncing our vowels. I would have to agree in that our "a" is indeed rather (raahthah) long, particularly if it occurs in a syllable which also undergoes the post-vocalic r deletion! My wife is from western NY (Buffalo area) and when we visit, people get a kick (or should I say they get a "wicked chahge") when I pronounce things like "pop, cot, pot, etc." with the "open o" sound (by this I mean the IPAsymbol indicated by the open o). They seem to say "pahp, caht, paht, etc." - their accent just doesn't seem to want to use this open o sound all that much! Hence the old joke about the Boston Tea "Potty" (most accents in the US pronounce this as "pahty" - exactly the New England pronounciation of "party" - for "potty" we use that open o sound!). Yes, the rural areas of Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine retain the "older" or truer/broader pronounciation whereas places like Boston have a very distinct accent. New York may be Anglian, but it's definately not a New England accent. Southern Massachusetts, and all of Rhode Island and Connecticut though geographically in New England, to my ears anyway, do not speak with a New England accent - it's more like Long Island/New York to me!! Ndaw, we don't use the "showah/shoa" heyah in southin N' Hampshah. Yowah more ahpt to heyah "ayuh". Of course for those who may be wondering, you must realize that we just don't throw all those unused r's away - we add them onto the ends of words ending is "a"and replace the "a" with an 'e' sound, i.e. the "a" tends to get deleted and the "r" becomes vocalic. So, my sistah Linder, went to visit a friend in Florider and decided she might go to Havaner, Cuber, but wahn't shuwah she could drive hah (her) caah theyah, might be some wicked hahd, ayuh" Mike S ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 19:36:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:36:07 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson stlev99 at yahoo.com Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (02) [E] Mike et al. It may be an aural perception problem on my part, but I don't find Boston "party" to sound like rest of the nation "potty". (For truth in advertising purposes, I'm an ex-Brooklyn NY boy, but haven't lived there for 35 years; and have a son living in Boston). I won't be able to do this with IPA symbols (because I'm too ignorant), but if we compare: General American: potty Boston: party (Ignoring NY: party which has a "lower" vowel than Boston, i believe), I would say that vowel length will give away the Boston variety every time, though I also feel that the Boston variety has a really "broad" quality, i.e. it is also qualitatively different from "potty". That doesn't make it less of a good joke, though. I enjoyed Mike's comments about "transference of R", since we did that in Brooklyn too. I could never understand why my mother couldn't say "washer" (washuh) but had no problem at all pronouncing Californier. Stan > From: Szelog, Mike > Subject: Language Varieties > Now I see what you're getting at! Yes, I do agree. > We do indeed have a very > unique way of pronouncing our vowels. I would have > to agree in that our "a" > is indeed rather (raahthah) long, particularly if it > occurs in a syllable > which also undergoes the post-vocalic r deletion! > > My wife is from western NY (Buffalo area) and when > we visit, people get a > kick (or should I say they get a "wicked chahge") > when I pronounce things > like "pop, cot, pot, etc." with the "open o" sound > (by this I mean the > IPAsymbol indicated by the open o). They seem to say > "pahp, caht, paht, > etc." - their accent just doesn't seem to want to > use this open o sound all > that much! Hence the old joke about the Boston Tea > "Potty" (most accents in > the US pronounce this as "pahty" - exactly the New > England pronounciation of > "party" - for "potty" we use that open o sound!). ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Mike, Lowlanders, Like Stan (above), I don't consider the Boston pronunciation of "party" to "sound like rest of the nation "potty"." I hear the sequence /ar/ in Boston pronunciation as [a:] (['p_ha:ti] ~ ['p_ha:d_0i]), thus very similar to the common Australian pronunciation -- with a "flat" long "a" sound (like in Standard German _nass_, just much longer). I hear General American English ['p_hQ(:)ti] ~ ['p_hQ(:)d_0i] for "potty" (as opposed to BBC English ['p_hOt_hi] ~ ['p_hOt_hI] and General Australian ['p_hOt_hi]). Like Stan, I hear the "broad" New York pronunciation of /ar/ as having a lower vowel than in Boston (something like (['p_hA:ti] ~ ['p_hA:d_0i]). By the way, the pronunciation of /ar/ in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) is very much like that of Bostonian and Australian, e.g., _Park_ [p_ha:k] 'park', _Karr_ [k_ha:] 'car', _Mark_ [ma:k] 'mark', _Harm_ [ha:m] 'harm', _Smart_ [sma:t] 'smart', 'pain', _Barg_ [ba:x] 'mountain', 'hill', _Harder_ ['ha:d3`] 'herder', _Lark_ [la:k] 'lark', _Parl_ [p_ha:l] 'pearl', _Part_ [p_ha:t] 'part', 'share', _Karn_ [k_ha:n] 'kernel', 'nucleus'. However, LS does not have liaison while English does, and all words must begin with a consonant. A glottal stop occurs were people perceive a word to begin with a vowel (e.g., _Arm_ [?a:m] 'arm'), and, unlike in English, this glottal stop cannot be deleted (thus may be argued to be phonemic rather than inserted). Interpreting essentially foreign _-a_ as _-er_ (as is done in liaison in non-rhotic English dialects, e.g., "Chiner_or_other_allies") does not happen or at least cannot be proven; e.g., _Trina or Ann_ ['tri:nQ ?O3` ?a.n] 'Catherine or Anne', which in non-rhotic English might be pronounced ['tri:n at rOra.n], hence the perception of "choppiness" in German and LS to speakers of English. Another incidental remark: LS has the same aspiration ([_h]) rule as General American English: aspiration of a voiceless stop applies only in a syllable with primary stress (while in other English dialects it can apply anywhere); hence _party_: LS and Bostonian ['p_ha:ti] vs England English ['p_hQ:t_hi] ~ ['p_hQ:ts_hi]. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron P.S.: Phonetic notation used here: SAMPA http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm, http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 21:21:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:21:17 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Szelog, Mike Subject: Language Varieties Hi Stan and all, On 18.OCT.2002, Stan Levinson wrote: "I don't find Boston "party" to sound like rest of the nation "potty". (For truth in advertising purposes, I'm an ex-Brooklyn NY boy, but haven't lived there for 35 years; and have a son living in Boston). I won't be able to do this with IPA symbols (because I'm too ignorant), but if we compare: General American: potty Boston: party (Ignoring NY: party which has a "lower" vowel than Boston, i believe), I would say that vowel length will give away the Boston variety every time, though I also feel that the Boston variety has a really "broad" quality, i.e. it is also qualitatively different from "potty". " Stan, I agree - the Boston accent is quite different from the rest of New England - I can usually tell that a person is (or was) from the Boston area! To my ears, they have a very distinct "o" sound - not quite the IPA "open o", sounds something like the "aw" in 'law', but that's not quite it either - sort of something in between the two. Mike S ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 22:54:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:54:08 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (04) [E] Mike, Funny you should mention that, since my son, who has lived there for 13 years (since he went off to college), always tells me that he just can't "get" that "o"!!! As such a cosmpolitan city and college town, Boston certainly has so many people who DON'T have the typical accents, but when I'm there, I search out people who talk like that. Sounds more "real", just as when I'm in NY, I love to run into Brooklyn accents. I guess one man's food is another man's poison, but those traditional accents to me are like an ear massage, they just feel SO good! Stan > From: Szelog, Mike > Subject: Language Varieties > > Stan, I agree - the Boston accent is quite different > from the rest of New > England - I can usually tell that a person is (or > was) from the Boston area! > To my ears, they have a very distinct "o" sound - > not quite the IPA "open > o", sounds something like the "aw" in 'law', but > that's not quite it either > - sort of something in between the two. > > Mike S ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (03) [E] Ron, Interesting comparing it with Australian. I agree, except that I think the Australian "a" is even higher than the Boston "a" before "r". In general vowels written "a" in Australian seem to be higher than corresponding American vowels, so that the "a" /ae/ of words like, say, "cat", is almost more like the "e" of "end". Like to hear what the Aussies say, but my impression is that in general, if we think in terms of a kind of old fashioned vowel "inverted pyramid", that the Australian pyramid would be shorter on the open/close axis as well as on the front/back axis, with an offset closer to the front, i.e. the Aussie pyramid would fit inside the American pyramid, but be off-center favoring the "front" part. Actually, since this DOES count as lowlands, what do you folks think about Aussie vowels in general? It's my contention that there are NO "back" vowels in Australian. In fact the Australian realization of the long "o" (boat) sounds like it has every vowel known to man in it--except "o", which sounds like an exaggeration of typical British (sorry I don't know British dialect boundaries, but I guess I mean something close to normal education London). What's curious is that the Aussie "u" of "food" actually sounds kind of Irish to me... isn't that just like the Aussies. Really, Oz just has the coolest vowels... Stan > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language varieties > > Mike, Lowlanders, > > Like Stan (above), I don't consider the Boston > pronunciation of "party" to > "sound like rest of the nation "potty"." I hear the > sequence /ar/ in Boston > pronunciation as [a:] (['p_ha:ti] ~ ['p_ha:d_0i]), > thus very similar to the > common Australian pronunciation -- with a "flat" > long "a" sound (like in > Standard German _nass_, just much longer). I hear > General American English > ['p_hQ(:)ti] ~ ['p_hQ(:)d_0i] for "potty" (as > opposed to BBC English > ['p_hOt_hi] ~ ['p_hOt_hI] and General Australian > ['p_hOt_hi]). Like Stan, I > hear the "broad" New York pronunciation of /ar/ as > having a lower vowel than > in Boston (something like (['p_hA:ti] ~ > ['p_hA:d_0i]). > > By the way, the pronunciation of /ar/ in Northern > Lowlands Saxon (Low > German) is very much like that of Bostonian and > Australian, e.g., _Park_ > [p_ha:k] 'park', _Karr_ [k_ha:] 'car', _Mark_ [ma:k] > 'mark', _Harm_ [ha:m] > 'harm', _Smart_ [sma:t] 'smart', 'pain', _Barg_ > [ba:x] 'mountain', 'hill', > _Harder_ ['ha:d3`] 'herder', _Lark_ [la:k] 'lark', > _Parl_ [p_ha:l] 'pearl', > _Part_ [p_ha:t] 'part', 'share', _Karn_ [k_ha:n] > 'kernel', 'nucleus'. > > However, LS does not have liaison while English > does, and all words must > begin with a consonant. A glottal stop occurs were > people perceive a word > to begin with a vowel (e.g., _Arm_ [?a:m] 'arm'), > and, unlike in English, > this glottal stop cannot be deleted (thus may be > argued to be phonemic > rather than inserted). Interpreting essentially > foreign _-a_ as _-er_ (as > is done in liaison in non-rhotic English dialects, > e.g., > "Chiner_or_other_allies") does not happen or at > least cannot be proven; > e.g., _Trina or Ann_ ['tri:nQ ?O3` ?a.n] 'Catherine > or Anne', which in > non-rhotic English might be pronounced > ['tri:n at rOra.n], hence the perception > of "choppiness" in German and LS to speakers of > English. > > Another incidental remark: LS has the same > aspiration ([_h]) rule as General > American English: aspiration of a voiceless stop > applies only in a syllable > with primary stress (while in other English dialects > it can apply anywhere); > hence _party_: LS and Bostonian ['p_ha:ti] vs > England English ['p_hQ:t_hi] ~ > ['p_hQ:ts_hi]. > > Cheers! > Reinhard/Ron > > P.S.: Phonetic notation used here: SAMPA > http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm, > http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Stan, I basically agree with you that the Australian phonetic output of /ar/ is somewhat higher and more fronted than the Bostonian one. However, there are many shades of Australian (and probably several of Bostonian), and some of them go farther on the scale than others. Most people I know divide them into "broad Australian" and "educated Australian" (the latter predominating in the electronic media). The /ar/ -> [a:] sound tends to be somewhat higher and more fronted ("fletter") in the former than in the latter, but it is not quite [æ:] or [E:] either. What I had really meant to say was that the phonetic realizations of /ar/ in Bostonian, general New England, Australian and New Zealand dialects are similar to each other, in the same ballpark as opposed to most other dialects of English (including those of New York), and Lowlands Saxon (LS) fits in with them. > Actually, since this DOES count as lowlands, what do > you folks think about Aussie vowels in general? It's > my contention that there are NO "back" vowels in > Australian. In fact the Australian realization of the > long "o" (boat) sounds like it has every vowel known > to man in it--except "o", which sounds like an > exaggeration of typical British (sorry I don't know > British dialect boundaries, but I guess I mean > something close to normal education London). What's > curious is that the Aussie "u" of "food" actually > sounds kind of Irish to me... isn't that just like the > Aussies. Really, Oz just has the coolest vowels... Again, I generally agree with you, but at the same time remind you that there is dialectal and sociolectal variation, and most people outside Australia are not quite aware of that. If I had to instruct anyone in how to start putting on an Australian accent (without being able to pull it off myself) I would begin with suggesting to "try and speak mostly in the front of your mouth". Yes, it is almost as though the entire vowel allophone inventory has been shifted toward the front and also a bit up. As in many dialects of Southern England, the output of /oo/ as in _go_ or _boat_ is something like [e.}] (ending with a central, slightly rounded vowel or glide, very similar in many Northern Lowlands Saxon dialects). Yes, the Australian /uu/ realization (e.g., "too") seems to be something like [}:] (like long _u_ in some Swedish varieties), a sound in between [u:] and [y:] and with little rounding, almost [1:]. I hear the short /u/ (e.g., "good") pronounced with little or no rounding, almost [1] (central, between [I] and [W]). However, there do seem to be some back vowels anyway, such as [O] (e.g., "pot"), [o:] (e.g., "thought"), and [AI] ~ [QI] ~ [OI] (e.g., "die," often slightly rounded, as opposed to [aI], e.g., "day"). Much of this seems to apply to New Zealand varieties as well. The only feature of NZ "accents" that to my ear sounds special (from my pseudo-Australian viewpoint) is that the short /e/, as in "bed," is pronounced even more frontal and higher than its Australian counterpart, something like [e], approaching [I]. I hear a similar sound in some South African English dialects. Cheers [tS_hIe.z]! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 00:06:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:06:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] As a footnote to the OK discussion, this appeared in the 18 Oct New York Times: "October 18, 2002 By DOUGLAS MARTIN Allen Read, the Expert of 'O.K.,' Dies at 96 Allen Walker Read, a playful prospector of the American tongue who hunted down the source of words like Dixie and Podunk, phrases like the almighty dollar and, most famous of all, those ubiquitous initials, O.K., died on Wednesday at his home in Manhattan. He was 96. A longtime English professor at Columbia University , he demolished a host of theories about the origin of O.K., an Americanism adopted by virtually every language and one of the first words spoken on the Moon. The original source was not a misspelling by Andrew Jackson or a Choctaw Indian word or a superior brand of Army biscuit or a variety of other possibilities. Rather, its first known published appearance with its current meaning came in The Boston Morning Post on March 23, 1839: "o.k. - all correct." It appeared at a time when initials, preferably of misspelled words, like "oll korrect," were the fad. "K.Y." meant "no use" ("know yuse"), but that did not catch on. Mr. Read solved the "O.K." mystery in a series of articles in American Speech in 1963 and 1964, causing "much gnashing of teeth by other etymologists, who had themselves lusted for the laurels of `O.K.,' " according to an article by Michelle Stacey in The New Yorker in 1989. " ---------- From: Theo Homan Subject: etymology: could YOU help me? Etymology: could YOU help me? Are there any kind persons between us that would think about etymology-connections/origins of these Dutch words: 1] paling 2] puin 3] koorts. Conc. 1: Does 'paling' also occur in [orig.] saxon? ['Aal' is common-germanic.] Conc. 3: Especially 'koorts' has my warm interest. This word also occurs in saxon. [There is an overall tendency to use for 'koorts' a word that expresses 'heat']. vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Theo, I have never come across *_Pa(h)ling_ ~ *_Po(h)ling_ for 'eel' in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and also did not find it in any dialect-specific dialect dictionaries at hand. However, I would not be surprised if it did exist in some dialects. I would probably assume that the word is related to _paal_ 'pole', 'stake' (which does exist in LS), either because of the shape of the creature or because eel traps tend to be anchored at stakes or poles. I cannot think of any LS cognate of Dutch _koorts_ 'fever'. The usual word is _Fever_ ['fE.Iv3`] (pronounced like BBC English "favour") ~ _Feber_ ['fE.Iv3`] (neut., uncountable). It can also be referred to as _Fresen_ ['frE.Isn=] ~ _Freren_ ~ _Freern_ [frE.I3`n] ~ _Frerent_ ~ _Freernt_ [frE.I3`nt] (neut., uncountable, lit. "freezing," i.e., feeling cold due to fever). A bout of fever may be referred to as _Schuur_ [Su:3`] ("shower," masc. ~ neut., pl. _Schuren_ ~ _Schuurn_ [Su:3`n]), the same word being used for a rain shower (not a shower in the bathroom, which is _Duusch_). I cannot think of a LS cognate of _puin_ 'rubble' either. I would expect *_Puun_. Sorry ... I wasn't any help, can only express my solidarity with your sense of mission to get to the bottom of these mystery words. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 19 23:24:02 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:24:02 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E] (Stan's reply below) From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties I basically agree with you that the Australian phonetic output of /ar/ is somewhat higher and more fronted than the Bostonian one. However, there are many shades of Australian (and probably several of Bostonian), and some of them go farther on the scale than others. Most people I know divide them into "broad Australian" and "educated Australian" (the latter predominating in the electronic media). The /ar/ -> [a:] sound tends to be somewhat higher and more fronted ("fletter") in the former than in the latter, but it is not quite [æ:] or [E:] either. What I had really meant to say was that the phonetic realizations of /ar/ in Bostonian, general New England, Australian and New Zealand dialects are similar to each other, in the same ballpark as opposed to most other dialects of English (including those of New York), and Lowlands Saxon (LS) fits in with them. ... Again, I generally agree with you, but at the same time remind you that there is dialectal and sociolectal variation, and most people outside Australia are not quite aware of that. If I had to instruct anyone in how to start putting on an Australian accent (without being able to pull it off myself) I would begin with suggesting to "try and speak mostly in the front of your mouth". Yes, it is almost as though the entire vowel allophone inventory has been shifted toward the front and also a bit up. As in many dialects of Southern England, the output of /oo/ as in _go_ or _boat_ is something like [e.}] (ending with a central, slightly rounded vowel or glide, very similar in many Northern Lowlands Saxon dialects). Yes, the Australian /uu/ realization (e.g., "too") seems to be something like [}:] (like long _u_ in some Swedish varieties), a sound in between [u:] and [y:] and with little rounding, almost [1:]. I hear the short /u/ (e.g., "good") pronounced with little or no rounding, almost [1] (central, between [I] and [W]). However, there do seem to be some back vowels anyway, such as [O] (e.g., "pot"), [o:] (e.g., "thought"), and [AI] ~ [QI] ~ [OI] (e.g., "die," often slightly rounded, as opposed to [aI], e.g., "day"). Much of this seems to apply to New Zealand varieties as well. The only feature of NZ "accents" that to my ear sounds special (from my pseudo-Australian viewpoint) is that the short /e/, as in "bed," is pronounced even more frontal and higher than its Australian counterpart, something like [e], approaching [I]. I hear a similar sound in some South African English dialects. Ron, Thanks for the analysis. One thing that I have picked up from (non-linguistic specialist) Australians is that they tend to say that they cannot tell where a person is from in Australia by accent. I find this interested because you can hear differences (from my brief experience in Oz) in preference of [a] vs. [ae], and also I just had a kind of intangible different feel to the sound of South Australians vs. NSW (my only experience). Regarding the back vowels, yeah, I didn't even think about the AI/OI and O (pot). I guess our inverted vowel triangle, aside from being moved a bit forward, can be pulled a bit out of shape to include back vowels that tend toward the low side. As for NZ vowels, I've seen Australian writing portraying a NZ speaker and writing "bist" for "best", so I guess they perceive the same thing. I suppose you've heard the old joke, re Aussie English, of WWII vintage: the American GI is in a hospital staffed by Aussie nurses. The scared GI asks "Nurse, have I come here to die?" Answers the nurse cheerily (I said she's Australian!!!), "Why no, love, you came here yesterday." Stan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties G'die, Stan, Lowlanders! Stan: > One thing that I have picked > up from (non-linguistic specialist) Australians is > that they tend to say that they cannot tell where a > person is from in Australia by accent. Yeah, I've heard that too, but I've also heard other people claim that they can *always* tell a "Sydneysider," a "Darwinian," etc. I think that, like everywhere in the world, regional differences are fading away and there are going to be more sociolects than regional dialects. > I suppose you've heard the old joke, re Aussie > English, of WWII vintage: the American GI is in a > hospital staffed by Aussie nurses. The scared GI asks > "Nurse, have I come here to die?" Answers the nurse > cheerily (I said she's Australian!!!), "Why no, love, > you came here yesterday." Yes, that's a good one. Here's a real-life one, between two guys (roommates) I knew in an international setting, one from the U.S. and the other from Australia. In the morning, the American roommate opened the curtain, a daily ritual to help the other guy wake up. The Australian asked, "Is it late ("lite") yet?", and the American said, "Open your eyes, man!" Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 00:10:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:10:42 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.19 (05) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: johnno55 at excite.com Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.10 (03) [A/E] Groete aan Ron, Susan my mede taalgenote uit Zimbabwe, Marco en al die ander laelanders. Eerstens moet ek apologie aanteken vir my versuim om onmiddelik op julle navraag oor Zimbabwiese Afrikaans te re-ageer. Ek was met vakansie en het nou so pas teruggekeer -'n vakansie nogal sonder 'n komper of selfs die internet. Ek het Afrikaanssprekende boere in die Chimanimani en Melsetter areas ontmoet wat met die Moodie-trek van 1894 die destydse Rhodesië binne gekom het asook ander wat in die hoofstede woonagtig was. Daar was ook 'n groot gemeenskap Afrikaansspekendes wat in die jare na die Tweede Wêreld oorlog ge-immigreer het. In hulle geval het hulle Afrikaans op skool geneem en het hulle baie keer uit dele van Suid-Afrika gekom waar Afrikaans die hoof voertaal is. Hulle spraakeienskappe sal dus die gebruike van hulle gebiede van afkoms weerspieël. For the readers who perhaps are interested and who are not fully au fait with Afrikaans I shall give my observations in English with Afrikaans examples. I am not a liguistic expert so that most of the information I have is anecdotal rather than following scientific methodologies. Firstly since the initial influx of Afrikaans speakers into Zimbabwe took place less than 120 years ago the changes have been the result of pressures from the other languages spoken rather than natural changes through the effluxion of time. My first reaction to hearing second and third generation speakers was that the speakers sounded like English language users speaking Afrikaans. Though not true in all cases the younger generation had moved further than their elders. This is a natural consequence of English being the primary language of education (especially in the then Rhodesia) as well as business. Many "Anglisismes" also crept in - Ek gaan op vakansie ( ek gaan met vakansie) I am going on vacation. /> Die kamer is goed opgelig (die kamer is goed verlig) - the room is well illuminated (lit up). In this case the Zimbabwean usage would mean that the room has been lifted up. Ek kom huistoe was used often - ek kom tuis far less often and somtimes ek kom by die huis (sic). The last example sounds strange as it lacks the word "aan" at the end of the sentance to make it understandable even if it is not usual. . I seldom heard the use of Aanstaande for example - aanstaande week gaan ek weg became in most cases volgende week gaan ek weg was used. Although all these examples are also found in the Afrikaans spoken in predominately English speaking areas in South Africa. English words were frequently substituted for commonly used Afrikaans words in speaking - often the Afrikaans word was actually not known. This occured several times when I acted as a part time interpreter in the High Court. In one instance it lead to an amusing situation where the judge who came from South Africa saying to me in Afrikaans "gebruik die Engelse woord - hy weet nie wat die Afrikaanse woord is nie". This applied especially in instances where technical terms were used. Shona words were also used - "pap" when it refered to maizemeal porridge was "sadza", "moenie hom hinder nie - moenie hom shupa nie." This was not unique to Afrikaans speakers as in colloquial English these same words were used by most English first language speakers. The lingua franca of the Mines "Fanagalo" or "Chilapalapa" contributed mushi for good (muhle in the Nguni (Zulu) language) and "shut-in" for dense bush country (the back of beyond). It can perhaps be compared to some of the language used by the playwrite Bredero in a work such as "De Spaansche Brabander" where certain characters used French words or at least words "borrowed and/or modified" from French in their speech. Marco I am sure could throw some light on this. In pronounciation the diphthong "ui" merged with "y" and "ei" so that all sounded identical (this is also true for some areas in South Africa) ruis reis and rys all sounded identical (sounding like "race" in English) as did fluit and vlyt. In Afrikaans the "ui" has a rounder sound the "ei" or "y". In some cases verbs obeyed English grammar not the customary Afrikaans use. The word "is" can be used to denote a passive past tense in Afrikaans - Ek weet nie waar hy gebore is nie - I do not know where he was born - becomes Ek weet nie waar hy gebore was nie I hope my feeble efforts are of interest and perhaps someone can cast more light on this by giving formal research done possibly through he University of Zimbabwe which did have a faculty of Afrikaans/Nederlands. John le Grange ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Afrikaans John, Lowlanders, Now that's the stuff from which "Lowlands Talk" Afrikaans sub-blurbs are made, stuff even most Afrikaans speakers would love to read about. ;) Cheers! Reinhard/Ron (http://www.lowlands-l.net) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 19 23:33:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:33:05 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.19 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E] (Stan's reply below) From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties I basically agree with you that the Australian phonetic output of /ar/ is somewhat higher and more fronted than the Bostonian one. However, there are many shades of Australian (and probably several of Bostonian), and some of them go farther on the scale than others. Most people I know divide them into "broad Australian" and "educated Australian" (the latter predominating in the electronic media). The /ar/ -> [a:] sound tends to be somewhat higher and more fronted ("fletter") in the former than in the latter, but it is not quite [æ:] or [E:] either. What I had really meant to say was that the phonetic realizations of /ar/ in Bostonian, general New England, Australian and New Zealand dialects are similar to each other, in the same ballpark as opposed to most other dialects of English (including those of New York), and Lowlands Saxon (LS) fits in with them. ... Again, I generally agree with you, but at the same time remind you that there is dialectal and sociolectal variation, and most people outside Australia are not quite aware of that. If I had to instruct anyone in how to start putting on an Australian accent (without being able to pull it off myself) I would begin with suggesting to "try and speak mostly in the front of your mouth". Yes, it is almost as though the entire vowel allophone inventory has been shifted toward the front and also a bit up. As in many dialects of Southern England, the output of /oo/ as in _go_ or _boat_ is something like [e.}] (ending with a central, slightly rounded vowel or glide, very similar in many Northern Lowlands Saxon dialects). Yes, the Australian /uu/ realization (e.g., "too") seems to be something like [}:] (like long _u_ in some Swedish varieties), a sound in between [u:] and [y:] and with little rounding, almost [1:]. I hear the short /u/ (e.g., "good") pronounced with little or no rounding, almost [1] (central, between [I] and [W]). However, there do seem to be some back vowels anyway, such as [O] (e.g., "pot"), [o:] (e.g., "thought"), and [AI] ~ [QI] ~ [OI] (e.g., "die," often slightly rounded, as opposed to [aI], e.g., "day"). Much of this seems to apply to New Zealand varieties as well. The only feature of NZ "accents" that to my ear sounds special (from my pseudo-Australian viewpoint) is that the short /e/, as in "bed," is pronounced even more frontal and higher than its Australian counterpart, something like [e], approaching [I]. I hear a similar sound in some South African English dialects. Ron, Thanks for the analysis. One thing that I have picked up from (non-linguistic specialist) Australians is that they tend to say that they cannot tell where a person is from in Australia by accent. I find this interested because you can hear differences (from my brief experience in Oz) in preference of [a] vs. [ae], and also I just had a kind of intangible different feel to the sound of South Australians vs. NSW (my only experience). Regarding the back vowels, yeah, I didn't even think about the AI/OI and O (pot). I guess our inverted vowel triangle, aside from being moved a bit forward, can be pulled a bit out of shape to include back vowels that tend toward the low side. As for NZ vowels, I've seen Australian writing portraying a NZ speaker and writing "bist" for "best", so I guess they perceive the same thing. I suppose you've heard the old joke, re Aussie English, of WWII vintage: the American GI is in a hospital staffed by Aussie nurses. The scared GI asks "Nurse, have I come here to die?" Answers the nurse cheerily (I said she's Australian!!!), "Why no, love, you came here yesterday." Stan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties G'die, Stan, Lowlanders! Stan: > One thing that I have picked > up from (non-linguistic specialist) Australians is > that they tend to say that they cannot tell where a > person is from in Australia by accent. Yeah, I've heard that too, but I've also heard other people claim that they can *always* tell a "Sydneysider," a "Darwinian," etc. I think that, like everywhere in the world, regional differences are fading away and there are going to be more sociolects than regional dialects. > I suppose you've heard the old joke, re Aussie > English, of WWII vintage: the American GI is in a > hospital staffed by Aussie nurses. The scared GI asks > "Nurse, have I come here to die?" Answers the nurse > cheerily (I said she's Australian!!!), "Why no, love, > you came here yesterday." Yes, that's a good one. Here's a real-life one, between two guys (roommates) I knew in an international setting, one from the U.S. and the other from Australia. In the morning, the American roommate opened the curtain, a daily ritual to help the other guy wake up. The Australian asked, "Is it late ("lite") yet?", and the American said, "Open your eyes, man!" Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 19 23:35:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:35:42 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.19 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.16 (04) [E] > From: Veturlidi Oskarsson > Subject: Old Frisian > > Hello, > > I am new on the list and don't know what you have been discussing, so I > might be asking something that already has been answered. I wanted to > ask > if anybody could tell me about the sources to Old Frisian. In > dictionaries, > the period of Old Frisian is usually 1270-1500. But are there no older > sources to the Frisian language than from the late 13th century? > > Greetings, > > Veturlidi Oskarsson, University of Uppsala Dear Veturlidi Perhaps this is a more complex problem that one might imagine. The frisians were a well known people long before the 13th century. But they did not alwaeys live in the same area's as they do now. Shouldn't we look in other regions to find more? Greatings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 19 23:38:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:38:56 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.19 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] Marco: I would like to add that I discussed the theory as to Jackson White origins presented by the lecturer of the historical society with a Jackson White aquaintance of mine as we were sipping Walter Fahloh's powerful schnapps. This would have been around 1975, the year before I left the area. Andy (last name omitted to protect the guilty) felt that the theory was a lot of nonsense. However, he had no alternate theory to propose. Although I had my doubts about it, I returned to acceptance of the theory in spite of many doubts I had had. My doubts hinged on the fact that 200 prostitutes would have had no difficulty in finding work in New York, which even then was a wild city ( an article I had read in a newspaper stated that even in New Amsterdam times, there were more bars than churches). And then too, I reasoned that the lecturer must have done her homework and have researched the question thoroughly. Maybe not though. Maybe she gave vent to the same prejudices felt by the general population of the area. I would like to add that in the lowland areas, Dutch names are extremely frequent. I went to High School with many. No one though assumes though that someone is a Jackson White merely because their name is Vreeland. That distinction is reserved to the people who live in the mountains or who moved from there.Making joking comments about the Jackson Whites was commonplace in the area but I don't recall anyone with a Dutch surname doing so. I wonder if the name and concept of Jackson Whites is not imposed by the outsiders who have moved into the area who were not pleased with the obvious mixed race status of the mountain people? In other words, that the Jackson Whites were not a separate people but were part of the continuum of Dutch decended people? Jackson White status haunted people in the area and limited where they could live, for eaxample. Mike Milligan moved down from the mountains years ago and opened a successful construction business but he was limited as to where he could buy a house in spite of the fact that he was quite affluent. He bought a house in the area of the former Camp Midvale (which I used to manage). The communists and former communists of the area were much more tolerant than the typical population of the area. ( Camp Midvale is another interesting story, Opened by German Naturfreunde in the early 20th century, the fight between the Nazi Bund and the German communists in the 1930's, the communists winning and kicking out the Nazis, etc.) Regarding Jackson Whites having six fingers, there is some truth to that. Squeek deGroat introduced me to his cousin, who unbidden showed me his hands. There was a definite stub of a sixth finger next to his little finger. He said that most people have them surgically removed but that he decided to keep them. Tom Thomas and Robert, thanks for the information! Thomas wrote: > I lived in Ringwood in northern New Jersey for years. I used to know many > of the Jackson Whites personally. Although family names like vanZutphen, > Onderdonk, deGroat, vanDunk, etc. predominate, I never came across anyione > who spoke other than English. But their population ranges through some > pretty wild areas, so who knows. Many of the ones I knew made a living in > questionable ways, such as "jacking" deer (I know a bar in Wanaque with an > enormous meat locker where one can sell such meat). They are universally > proud of their ability to shoot and to hunt. I already thought it would be very questionable that these people would still speak a language that had died out almost a century earlier in all neighbouring valleys. Nevertheless there should be a whole chapter about the language of the Jackson Whites in a book called 'The Ramapo Mountain People' by a David S. Cohen. That should be worth checking out, since I found some remarks on the internet as "In New Jersey there is a language that is a version of Flemish mixed with English, plus a few animal & plant terms from Lenape-Delaware Indian, called 'Jersey Dutch.' The variant spoken by the Mountain People is called 'nêxer däuts,' that is, 'Negro Dutch' (see Cohen, "The Ramapo Moun- tain People," Rutgers Univ Press, 1974, pp 142- 143)". I take it that traces of this Jersey Dutch dialect can still be found in the speech of the Jackson Whites. > I attended a lecture at Ringwood Manor, given by the local historical > society years ago on the origin of the Jackson Whites. According to the > lecturer, the name originated with a man named Jackson, who got as contract > to supply 200 prostitutes to the English army in New York during the > revolutionary war. He got some prostitutes to volunteer off the streets of > london but got nowhere the total that he needed. So, he started kidnapping > women, and brought his total up to 100. For the remainder, he bught 100 > slaves and set off for New York. > The women were kept in a stockade and were abandoned when the English lost > the war and had to break out. Everywhere they went they were shooed off by > farmers with guns, so they made their way across the Hudson River to > northern New Jersy, an area that was inhabbited by Dutch bandits who had > intermarried with Indians. They intermarried with these people and thus > were born the Jackson Whites. As far as I know, that is only one of the theories. Another theory says that the name 'Jackson Whites' actually stand for ''Jacks and Whites" ('jacks' referring to the term 'freed blacks'). > My brother still lives in that area and he informed that that the Jackson > Whites had recently been classified as the Ramapo Indian tribe. According to their official website at www.ramapoughmountainindians.com they are not yet classified as Indians, but have been trying to convince the Bureau of Indian Affairs that they are Indians since 1978. Strange to see the name of their current chief: Walter 'Silent Wolf' Van Dunk! Finally, a question for Robert Bowman: when did your paternal grandmother die? I have already found that Jersey Dutch was at least spoken fluently untill about 1940 by a few last speakers. And as late as 1964 a James Storms (born in 1888) compiled "A Jersey Dutch Vocabulary" (published by the Pascack Historical So- ciety). He drew upon his own memory of what he had heard as a child and that of other elderly in Bergen County, NJ. Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 22:05:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:05:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.20 (01) [|D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] Hi! These three words ( puin koorts and paling , have "no etymological explanation" according too my etymological dictionary.. (Koorts might be connected with a word in sanscrit ....) ( j. de vries/ f de Tollennaere)(Het spectrum.. isbn 90 274 2947 2) However it's not Paal...nothing to do with paling, (and palindrome is not the dream of an eel either.) well, and they are typical Dutch words. Western Dutch. (They might come from a substratum even, like for instance the word schaap is. The Germanic word for schaap, sheep, being ewe, ooi.) Very interesting subject! Wim [Verdoold] wkv at home.nl zwolle netherlands. ---------- From: elsie zinsser Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] Haai all, Theo, in Afrikaans the 'paling' is a kind of fish found in inland lakes. It is not an eel here but a nasty looking bony fish with sharp teeth. I always suspected that the word relates to *aling or 'eel'. "puin" is 'rubble' and koors (koorts) means "fever" in Afrikaans. I cannot imagine that the three words were connected at any stage. Groete Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology Beste Theo (and other Liëglanners) Here's some etymological information (< Jan de Vries) concerning , 1) PALING : znw. m., mnl. pâlinc, paellinc, ook paeldinc, paeldrinc. Het woord is uitsluitend nl. en blijkens de uitgang (zie : bokking) een afl. van een woord paal. - Mag men wegens de vorm van een dikke paling aan overdrachtelijke betekenis van paal 1 denken ? Moelijker kan men een afl. van het eenmaal voorkomende mnl. pail m. 'poel, plas' aannemen, dat met poel zou kunnen samenhangen. De vorm paeldinc moet wel als de oudste beschouwd worden, want de Palingdijk, een gracht tussen Bourbourg en Grevelingen, heeft als oude vormen Palathingadic (1111) en Paledhingedic (1123). 2) PUIN : znw. o. eerst na Kiliaen bekend, een specifiek nnl. woord, vooral in gebruik in Noord-Holland bezuiden het IJ, Utrecht, N-W. Gelderl. en Overijsel en daarom wel als jonge formatie te beschouwen. Verband met oe. punian 'stampen' (ne. pound) is daarom niet waarschijnlijk. De herkomst van het woord is onbekend. 3) KOORTS : znw. v., mnl. corts, coorts, curts, m. (zelden) en laat-mnl. cortse, curtse v., mnd. korts. De beperkte verbreiding van het woord maakt het zeer twijfelachtig, of men het verbinden mag met oi. jvarati (heeft koorts), jvara- 'koorts, smart' (IEW 479). They are intruiging words indeed, especially "koorts". In Brabant and Flanders "kortsen" or "kortses" (always plural ! and a short 'o') is the usual form. But apparently "kortsen" (pronounced kötsen in Brabantish) have not always been associated uniquely with 'heat', because Kiliaen testifies that in the 16th century Brabantish "koud wee" used to be a synonym of "kortsen". On the other hand there are words like "ne kaa" (B), "een verkoudheid" (D), "a cold" (E) that seem to blame chilly feelings for catching a cold. Knowledge of pre-scientific medicinal skills seems necessary, I think. Maybe it's the idea of suffering from brief spells of overheating, interspersed with short periods of feeling cold that gave birth to the word. Hence it would have to be derived from "short" (E), "kort" (D). It's not entirely impossible that an adjective becomes a substantive, because in Brabantish we also have the word "köt" (probably short for "kort gekapt"), "kort" (D) which signifies "kopvlees, zult" (D), "fromage de cochon" in French and "hoofdflakke" in Flemish, meat being made from the head of a pig or a cow that is often eaten with some mustard. Regarding "paling" (D) I seem to remember that I once heard the word "peurling" being used in Flanders for an eel. This word can be derived from the verb "peuren" which means "to dig in mud with a stick in order to make the eels come out". Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Luc wrote above: > Regarding "paling" (D) I seem to remember that I once heard the word "peurling" > being used in Flanders for an eel. > This word can be derived from the verb "peuren" which means "to dig in mud with > a stick in order to make the eels come out". Interesting! I assumed this Flemish verb _peuren_ (/pöör-/) is a cognate of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _purren_ (/pur-/ [p_hU3`-]), Eastern Friesland dialect _puren_ ~ _puurn_ (/puur-/ [p_hu:3`-]), which means (intrans.) 'to stoke', 'to poke' (usually with a stick or such in dirt, sand, mud, etc.) and (trans.) 'to spur on', 'to goad on', 'to provoke', 'to pester', 'to hound'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 22:10:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:10:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (02) [|E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language Varieties Hi Ron and all You wrote: "Much of this seems to apply to New Zealand varieties as well. The only feature of NZ "accents" that to my ear sounds special (from my pseudo-Australian viewpoint) is that the short /e/, as in "bed," is pronounced even more frontal and higher than its Australian counterpart, something like [e], approaching [I]. I hear a similar sound in some South African English dialects." This closing of 'e' has also had the unique effect in NZ of pushing the 'i' to a more centralised position, which can be written as an allophone of schwa, as it's in complementary distribution. Lots of Australians thus laugh at NZ pronunciation of 'six' as to them it sounds like 'sex'. My NZ cousins all have this feature in their speech, and it's (for me) the best marker of distinguishing NZ from Australian accents. In a similar way I'll always listen to Canadians pronunciation of 'light' to distinguish them from Americans. Gary ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: Dear all, I've come into this one a little late, as usual. Apologies. Ron wrote: "Yeah, I've heard that too, but I've also heard other people claim that they can *always* tell a "Sydneysider," a "Darwinian," etc. I think that, like everywhere in the world, regional differences are fading away and there are going to be more sociolects than regional dialects." I would concur to a certain degree. My wife was born in Sydney to a West Australian mother and an Irish father and was subsequently raised in Tasmania and Perth. My mother-in-law has (what I consider) a very strong West Australian bush accent indeed, whereas Ruth has a delocalised "General Australian accent" (although she would say it was a New South Wales accent), something that appears to be making great strides at the expense of local accents and dialects, probably because of the media. I definitely noticed different regional accents when I was in Australia (I returned to Ireland a month ago), but the dichotomy is in my opinion urban/rural to each state or territory, rather than class- or education-defined as Ron suggests. (Indeed, many rural Australians are amongst the richest and most well educated of all Australians.) As an outsider in Australia who came into contact with nearly as many New Zealanders and South Africans as Aussies, I felt that the New Zealand and South African accents were closer to each other than either was to the Australian accent, due in part I suppose to their clipped vowels (cluppt voewuls). Underneath, though, Australian, NZ and South African voices all seem to share a similar sound to British or Irish ears... a fossilised Southern English accent from the early 1800s, when all three countries were first settled by English speakers, perhaps? In any case I tend to disagree with Ron about sociolects. Within a globalised world I feel that regional accents within a country are losing ground to a single "national" accent (i.e., General Australian, General New Zealand, General English, General Scottish) that can hold its own. Class doesn't come into it and I say that as a working class man only too aware of what class can do. Go raibh maith agaibh, Criostoir. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 22:34:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:34:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.20 (03) [E/Swedish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.19 (02) [E] From: wim, wkv at home.nl zwolle Netherlands. Hi, Old Frisian, well there are bits and pieces of rune sticks with Frisian words found in flood mounts all over Friesland, those are the oldest bit's of Germanic found in the Netherlands. How ever there aren't many of them, and few words, and nobody can tell the difference between really old Anglo- Saxon, and Frisian... Här är min web sidens adressen, jag har skrivet lite om gamla frisk, och runar. : http://www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/Runic.htm That's about all Ii found about Frisian runic texts. Bye. wim. [Verdoold] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Dear Lowlanders, (1) One subscriber has kindly offered Afrikaans translation help for our project "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/) but apparently would be able to translate only a few of the "blurbs." I wonder if anyone else (the more the merrier) can and wishes to participate in it in a team effort. As a matter of principle, we start a series of translations into a certain language only if there is enough commitment to translating the entire series of "blurbs" -- in other words, all or nothing. If you wish to participate in an Afrikaans translation effort, please contact Mathieu van Woerkom (Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl) and me (sassisch at yahoo.com). Thanks. (2) I wonder if there is any interest in a small series of introductory blurbs about Lowlands-L members, listing their interests, projects, achievements, web pages, and anything else they wish to be known, with an emphasis on Lowlands languages and cultures. I imagine each of those blurbs to be a paragraph in English (for which help would be available) and a version or message in the person's native language or the Lowlands language(s) of their interest. Please get in touch with me(sassisch at yahoo.com) if you are interested. Thanks for your continued interest and support! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 04:23:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:23:27 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andrys Onsman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (02) [|E] Howyagoing? Having lived in the far south (ie Hobart, Tasmania) and worked in the far north (ie Darwin and the Tiwi Islands) for some 35 years, and been to most places in between, I am yet to hear anyone pronounce good-day as g'die, or late as lite! Whilst some regional variation is undoubtedly happening (Tasmanians tend to end their sentences with though, New South Welshfolk with but and Queenslanders and Territorians with eh. As in "Nice day, though/but/eh"; Whether you call luncheon meat Belgium, Fritz or Strasbourg "Straz" will identify you as Tasmanian, South Australian or Victorian) the notion that a person can be placed by accent seems somewhat tenuous. The most fascinating aspect to me is the development of a (self-referencing) neutral Australian accent (a national version Standard Australian English). Broad Australian is often spoken naturally in the bush and affectedly in the cities. Like Christoir, I'm not sure that it's related to class. Best, Andrys ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Andrys, Christoir, Lowlanders, OK, so I concede regarding "class," admitting that most of my knowledge is dated. I understand that meanwhile genuine "broad" Australian is fading away in urban communities. It would be interesting to know if Christoir found this to be so in Western Australia as well, because in "my" time I felt that there was a range of ...lects within the greater Perth area and the Southwest in general (Bunbury, Albany, Kalgoorlie). However, considerable urban growth and a lot of influx from the East Coast (and abroad) may have changed that linguistic landscape. What I find particularly fascinating is the topic of outsiders' vs. speakers' perception of phonology, especially in the case of Australia. Abroad, Australian pronunciation of "day," "tail" and "late" tends to be perceived as "die," "tile" and "light" (i.e., to the ear of someone with little exposure to Australian speech). However, Australians tend to swear up and down that that is completely wrong, that all that is nonsense. I believe that this is because it is an issue of "mapping." The speaker and the experienced listener are aware of the difference of phonetic output, e.g., the minimal pair "day" and "die." Inexperienced listeners, however, such as most Americans, tend to perceive the Australian pronunciation of "day" as "die" and of "die" as "doy." None of them is "correct," and this analysis seems absurd to Australians, but it has something to do with the listener allocating a foreign sound (or sound sequence) to the perceptively closest native sound (or sound sequence). With sustained exposure, the listener adjusts his or her perception, usually very soon. At least this is what I think. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 18:08:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:08:55 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] Dear all, Andrys wrote: "I am yet to hear anyone pronounce good-day as g'die, or late as lite!" Absolutely. I think this is a gross distortion foisted on unsuspecting Australians. "Whilst some regional variation is undoubtedly happening (Tasmanians tend to end their sentences with though, New South Welshfolk with but and Queenslanders and Territorians with eh. As in "Nice day, though/but/eh"" "Eh" seems to be spreading heavily in Perth. I picked it up from there and now use it all the time, eh. Perth natives tend to see it as very New Zealand in origin, through a New South Wales medium, eh. :) I think it's a great tag. Ron wrote: "It would be interesting to know if Christoir found this to be so in Western Australia as well, because in "my" time I felt that there was a range of ...lects within the greater Perth area and the Southwest in general (Bunbury, Albany, Kalgoorlie)." Kalgoorlie where I lived still retained the "broad Australian" or ocker accent, definitely. Not too sure about Perth. Certainly my knowledge is limited to the southern suburbs of Thornlie, Maddington and Canning Vale, but I would doubt that amongst the young anything but an undifferentiated "general Australian" accent is in use.As Ron suggests this may have something to do with east-west migration and accent levelling but I seriously believe the strongest culprit, as every where else, is the national media. Amongst the very young (<16) I noticed a *very* strong Americanisation (specifically Californisation) of accent and tone, even in Kalgoorlie. Perhaps this is affected, I don't know. I have noticed that Australians, like many working class English speakers, become "broader" in speech when they are agitated, however. As regards perceptions of phonology, I would *never ever* hear "day" as "die" or "late" as "lite" - I hear each as day and late. The best man at my wedding is Greek and he continually heard [oi] in those positions, e.g., "moit" for "mate". At a push I can understand a perception of [oi] in day, but never [ai]. And I always tease my wife for inserting aspiration in such phrases (if you'll excuse me) as "fuck off", which I hear as "fah-hack awff". Presumably this is to do with the characteristic rising tone of Australian English, where the aspiration is the peak of the ascendant tone. Go raibh maith agaibh, Críostóir. ---------- From: Thomas Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] > Having lived in the far south (ie Hobart, Tasmania) and worked in the > far north (ie Darwin and the Tiwi Islands) for some 35 years, and been > to most places in between, I am yet to hear anyone pronounce good-day as > g'die, or late as lite! Both are commonly used here in Brisbane where I've lived and worked since 1971. I even had a problem once trying to chase up an order for sticky labels where I rang the supplier and said "I want to know what's happened to our labels ?" Woman's response was an intelligent "Eeeeh ?". After several unproductive attempts to get my message over I resorted to spelling out the word, that did it.."Aoh, Libels". Company is one of Australia's biggest suppliers of the things. You must mix with a better class of people Matey. :-) Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] When I read Andrys's comments, my thoughts were (in a less linguistically rigorous) the same as Ron's turned out to be. Ron has a good explanation, but the fact is, Ondrys, to people from outside Australia, who are familiar in particular with American or Canadian English, "day" does sound closer to our "die" than our "day", though I have also discovered from personal experience that as we grow accustomed to an 'accent', our 'mapping' must indeed change, because now when I hear Australian accents (that good old internet: all the rugby league match videos for free, all the Aussie rules for a nominal fee), I have to admit that I don't really notice it anymore unless I am focused on it. But Andrys, what about that darned /o/? Really, it does seem to take a complete tour of the mouth without ever reaching the point of articulation of /o/ as we New World types know it... Stan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Thanks for your feedback (above), guys. As you can see, perception/mapping and adjustment thereof varies and cannot be ignored or dismissed, no matter what native speakers and well-acquainted ("remapped") listeners may say. I remember my first brief encounter with a Farsi-speaking friend (from Iran). We had exchanged only a few words, and then she shouted across the room what sounded like "Boy!" For a few seconds I made a "Huh?!" face and then remembered that she, like many Iranians, renders the [aI] sound (as in "sigh", "die" and "line") as [Q.I], which to most non-Farsi speakers tends to be mapped to "oy". (Farsi has "short" /a/ which sounds rather like the "a" in "man" in most English dialects, and a "long" /â/ which sounds like the long Swedish "a" or the "ar" in very "posh" England English, with some rounding.) In rendering English [aI] she uses the "long" Farsi /â/: [Q.I]. She uses the "short" /a/ [æ] in rendering the English [EI] sound (as in "may"): [æI]. And she says something like [oI] or [UI] for the English "oy" diphthong. Now that I have known her and other Farsi speakers for a long time I hardly ever think about this. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 18:38:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:38:17 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.21 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.20 (01) [|D/E] Iedereen, Heel hartelijk dank. Ik heb eventjes heel weinig tijd, maar zeg even dank omdat ik voor deze 'moeilijke' woorden haast geen serieuze reacties verwacht had. Ter stimulering wil ik wel even kwijt dat bij 'koorts' ik zelf graag denk aan verband met het oude woord dat bijv. voorkomt in duits 'Kar-freitag', oe.'caron' en [west]scand. ong.'liggja i kjoer' (op je doodsbed liggen). Teruggaand op het Indo-Eur. kun je dan bij de betekenis komen van 'het ijlen' / 'delirium' [hadden ze vroeger ook hoor]. hart dank, vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology According to the _Herkunftsduden_, the _Kar..._ in _Karfreitag_ 'Good Friday' comes from Middle (High) German _kar_ < Old (High) German _chara_ 'lament', 'mourning'; cf. Gothic _kara_ 'care', 'worry'; cf. Old English > Modern English _care_. They link it with Greek _gêrys_ 'call', 'voice', Old Irish _gâir_ 'screaming' and ultimately Indo-European *_g^a*r-_ 'to call (out)', 'to scream', 'to lament'. Old English really has _caru_ for it, Old Saxon _kara_, Germanic *_karô_. Is there a link with Romance _car-_ 'dear' (e.g., Spanish _caro_ ~ _cara_, French _cher(e)_; also _charity_ < French _charité_ < Latin _caritas_) and North Germanic _kær_ ~ _kjær_ ~ _kär_ 'dear' and its derivatives (e.g., _kærlighed_ etc. 'love')? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 23:02:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:02:42 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) [E] Lowlands-L heeft op maandag, 21 okt 2002 om 20:08 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > > From: Criostoir O Ciardha > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] > > Dear all, > "Whilst some regional variation is undoubtedly happening (Tasmanians > tend > to end their sentences with though, New South Welshfolk with but and > Queenslanders and Territorians with eh. As in "Nice day, > though/but/eh"" > > "Eh" seems to be spreading heavily in Perth. I picked it up from there > and > now use it all the time, eh. Perth natives tend to see it as very New > Zealand in origin, through a New South Wales medium, eh. :) I think > it's a > great tag. And in West-Flanders in the "Westhoek" people alwaeys end their sentences with "enni [ {ne] " meaning "niet waar?" Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] Hi all! I am really enjoying the chat on Aussie English. Some years ago I discovered there are semi-comic books about broad Australian - which has taken the name "Strine" an extreme pronunciation of Australian. I am told something similar is published about the Charleston South Carolina which has quite unusual vowels to the outside ear. Apparently the older residents of the Outer Banks islands of coastal North Carolina share some of this divergent accent as well. There are semi-humorous books about Southern and Mountain talk - and of course Scots ("Awa and Bile Your Heid" is an example of a recent compilation of Scots curses and insults.) Are there other Lowland examples of this type of semi-popular dialect book or pamphlet? Do people think on balance it is a good or a bad thing for language conservation? No worries George Gibault ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Hi, George! (By the way, because I always pronounce written stuff in my head I've long meant to ask you if your first name is pronounced English or French. Please ignore the question if it isn't my business.) > I am really enjoying the chat on Aussie English. Some years ago I > discovered there are semi-comic books about broad Australian - which has > taken the name "Strine" an extreme pronunciation of Australian. It is called _Let Stalk Strine_ (= "Let's Talk Australian" -- Ure Smith, Sydney, 1965) and, a later work, _Let Stalk Strine and Nose Tone Unturned_ (Afferbeck Lauder, Al Terego, Australia in Print; ASIN: 0725406011; August 1989). One phrase I remember from the former is "Emma Chisitt?" for "How much is it?" They are kind of silly (in part because of deliberately moved word boundaries), but they are intertaining enough to have been sold well. It is interesting to note that quite a lot of Australians lightheartedly write "Strine" for "Australian." Either they see some sort of justification for that or they are going along with am baseless foreign joke. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 23:05:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:05:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.21 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.20 (01) [|D/E] Lowlands-L heeft op maandag, 21 okt 2002 om 00:05 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > From: Wim > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] > > Hi! > > These three words ( puin koorts and paling , have "no etymological > explanation" according too my etymological dictionary.. (Koorts might > be > connected with a word in sanscrit ....) ( j. de vries/ f de > Tollennaere)(Het spectrum.. isbn 90 274 2947 2) > > However it's not Paal...nothing to do with paling, (and palindrome is > not the dream of an eel either.) > well, and they are typical Dutch words. Western Dutch. (They might > come from a substratum even, like for instance the word schaap is. The > Germanic word for schaap, sheep, being ewe, ooi.) > > Very interesting subject! > > Wim [Verdoold] > > From: Luc Hellinckx > Subject: Etymology > > Beste Theo (and other Liëglanners) > > Here's some etymological information (< Jan de Vries) concerning , > > 1) PALING : znw. m., mnl. pâlinc, paellinc, ook paeldinc, paeldrinc. > Het > woord is uitsluitend nl. en blijkens de uitgang (zie > : bokking) een afl. van een woord paal. - Mag men wegens de vorm van > een > dikke paling aan overdrachtelijke betekenis van paal > 1 denken ? Moelijker kan men een afl. van het eenmaal voorkomende mnl. > pail > m. 'poel, plas' aannemen, dat met poel zou kunnen > samenhangen. > De vorm paeldinc moet wel als de oudste beschouwd worden, want de > Palingdijk, een gracht tussen Bourbourg en Grevelingen, > heeft als oude vormen Palathingadic (1111) en Paledhingedic (1123). > > 2) PUIN : znw. o. eerst na Kiliaen bekend, een specifiek nnl. woord, > vooral > in gebruik in Noord-Holland bezuiden het IJ, > Utrecht, N-W. Gelderl. en Overijsel en daarom wel als jonge formatie te > beschouwen. Verband met oe. punian 'stampen' (ne. > pound) is daarom niet waarschijnlijk. De herkomst van het woord is > onbekend. > > 3) KOORTS : znw. v., mnl. corts, coorts, curts, m. (zelden) en > laat-mnl. > cortse, curtse v., mnd. korts. > De beperkte verbreiding van het woord maakt het zeer twijfelachtig, of > men > het verbinden mag met oi. jvarati (heeft koorts), > jvara- 'koorts, smart' (IEW 479). > > They are intruiging words indeed, especially "koorts". In Brabant and > Flanders "kortsen" or "kortses" (always plural ! and a > short 'o') is the usual form. But apparently "kortsen" (pronounced > kötsen in > Brabantish) have not always been associated > uniquely with 'heat', because Kiliaen testifies that in the 16th > century > Brabantish "koud wee" used to be a synonym of > "kortsen". On the other hand there are words like "ne kaa" (B), "een > verkoudheid" (D), "a cold" (E) that seem to blame chilly > feelings for catching a cold. Knowledge of pre-scientific medicinal > skills > seems necessary, I think. > Maybe it's the idea of suffering from brief spells of overheating, > interspersed with short periods of feeling cold that gave > birth to the word. Hence it would have to be derived from "short" (E), > "kort" (D). It's not entirely impossible that an > adjective becomes a substantive, because in Brabantish we also have > the word > "köt" (probably short for "kort gekapt"), "kort" > (D) which signifies "kopvlees, zult" (D), "fromage de cochon" in > French and > "hoofdflakke" in Flemish, meat being made from the > head of a pig or a cow that is often eaten with some mustard. > > Regarding "paling" (D) I seem to remember that I once heard the word > "peurling" being used in Flanders for an eel. > This word can be derived from the verb "peuren" which means "to dig in > mud > with a stick in order to make the eels come out". > > Greetings, > > Luc Hellinckx > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Luc wrote above: > >> Regarding "paling" (D) I seem to remember that I once heard the word > "peurling" >> being used in Flanders for an eel. >> This word can be derived from the verb "peuren" which means "to dig >> in mud > with >> a stick in order to make the eels come out". > > Interesting! > > I assumed this Flemish verb _peuren_ (/pöör-/) is a cognate of Lowlands > Saxon (Low German) _purren_ (/pur-/ [p_hU3`-]), Eastern Friesland > dialect > _puren_ ~ _puurn_ (/puur-/ [p_hu:3`-]), which means (intrans.) 'to > stoke', > 'to poke' (usually with a stick or such in dirt, sand, mud, etc.) and > (trans.) 'to spur on', 'to goad on', 'to provoke', 'to pester', 'to > hound'. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron > Dear Lowlanders Here is some Flemish explanation regarding "paling-puin-koorts" Paoling: also called "aol(e)" Remarks... -In French-Flanders an "ale(aal)" = D: aar (W)V: een auwe E: ear (of corn). This has perhaps something to do with the simular form. -Paol (paolew-paoluw)= D: blauwzwart. Sometimes also like in the E word " pale" which is almost the opposite. Peuren (Peur'n): Is to catch an eel with a "peure"(V) For us this was fishing after eels with a net (never poking!)It could also mean to fish with a fishing-rod and bait. People also used a "paolingschaore (V) or an "olgeêr(ellekeêr)"(V). These were scissors with teeth to catch eel with it. A "peure"(V) is also a bunch of earthworms on a stick to put into the water to catch eel. "peur'n" in Flemish also means to purify, but that's another history i think. Puin: We say "pun" but i think that this is indeed a loan from the (North)Dutch word. koorts: We alwaeys say "kuts" The plural form is seldom used anymore. Sometimes one can hear: kors - korts(e) We have a saying: -De koude kuts ein/krieg'n van... (E: to have the cold fever)=to have an aversion to, from,for... And: -de rotte kuts = typhus -de roô kuts = scarlet fever -de raozende kuts = a person who wanders in his mind because of the fever. PS: could it have anything to do with the Latin word "curro" (to run, to ride) Groetjes, Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 22 15:35:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:35:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.22 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > A bout of fever may be referred to as _Schuur_ [Su:3`] ("shower," > masc. ~ neut., pl. _Schuren_ ~ _Schuurn_ [Su:3`n]), the same word > being used > for a rain shower (not a shower in the bathroom, which is _Duusch_). > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Hello, In Flanders we also use the word "stortbad" for E: shower or D: douche. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 22 16:06:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:06:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.22 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andrys Onsman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] To: George, Ron and all Subject: Language varieties From: Andrys Onsman > I am really enjoying the chat on Aussie English. Some years ago I > discovered there are semi-comic books about broad Australian - which has > taken the name "Strine" an extreme pronunciation of Australian. My bet is you'd enjoy Nino Culotto's "They're a Weird Mob" and subsequent stories about an "English" speaking migrant learning to speak "Australian." Culotto was actually John O'Grady a comedy writer with a fine ear for language. I'm sure I owe whatever "Australianess" I have to him. As it was written in the sixties, it's almost a historical piece now, but it still entertains me enormously. Good on youse, Andrys Onsman ---------- From: Andrys Onsman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) [E] To: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] > But Andrys, what about that darned /o/? Really, it > does seem to take a complete tour of the mouth without > ever reaching the point of articulation of /o/ as we > New World types know it... Stan, I've just spent half an hour sounding /o/ (Heaven knows what the people in the next office must think!) and apart from discovering that its remarkable close to the Dutch ui, (a bit lower) I can only congratulate you on your remarkable perspicacity and most effective description. Perhaps you don't have as many flies and can open your mouths wider? If nothing else I now really enjoy that sound! Cheers, Andrys ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] Dear all, George wrote: "I am really enjoying the chat on Aussie English. Some years ago I discovered there are semi-comic books about broad Australian - which has taken the name "Strine" an extreme pronunciation of Australian." I never understood "Strine" as a description of the dialect - I would use (with apologies to Tara Brabazon) "Ozdray-yun" (i.e., Australian) as a name for it. Furthermore, when I am Kalgoorlie or Perth I would call it "Wesd Ozdray-yun", for reasons that Ron would understand! "Do people think on balance it is a good or a bad thing for language conservation?" I'm ambivalent toward humour books on local dialect. For one, they perform the old function of dismissing local language as ridiculous peasant speech that should been taken seriously and on the other they are largely inaccurate as the writers tend to mangle the language to get it sound as silly as they want. There's a book on my language named "Ey up mi Duck" which is little more than a mockery of the speech, which is depressing. Local languages aren't quaint. They're the identity of real people and should perhaps be afforded a little more respect.Ron's characterisation of a "baseless foreign joke" applies just as much to local dialect. I think in Australia there is less mockery of the tongue and more a sense of national pride in it, however, which is refreshing to see. Go raibh math agaibh, Críostóir. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Andrys: > Stan, I've just spent half an hour sounding /o/ (Heaven knows what the > people in the next office must think!) So have I, but I closed my door ... I think we are dealing with something like [eW] (where the SAMPA [W] stands for an upside-down m, the unrounded equivalent of [u]). > Perhaps you don't have as many flies and can open your mouths wider? *Now* we are getting somewhere! *There's* is a plausible explanation if ever I heard (read) one, and it does explain a lot! Oh, yes! Hardly any place has more flies than Australia. Críostóir: > I think in Australia there is less mockery of the tongue and more a sense of > national pride in it, however, which is refreshing to see. The national pride thing is my impression also. However, this does not mean that Australians never poke fun at themselves, including their language. In fact, they do, but it is my impression that what on the surface appears to be deprecating is really worn as a badge of honor. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 22 18:55:58 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:55:58 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.22 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.22 (02) [E] Andrys, Hope you and the "o" had fun together. I also thought that it had some resemblance to the Dutch "ui", but it has got tons more character to it. Just love Aussie English. Not just from point of view of phonetics: I've been reading quite a bit of Australian literature, and keep running to the computer to look at the macquarie online dictionary, which is an incredible tool (Carey's "Illywhacker" is practically a crash course in "Strine"). I'm gonna have to find out if they will download that thing to a PDA before the next time I go to Australia!!! Also, don't worry about those people in the next office... in between thinking "What the hell is Andrys doing?" they are thinking "Wow, I'm in Australia. How cool is that?" Stan > From: Andrys Onsman > > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) > [E] > Stan, I've just spent half an hour sounding /o/ > (Heaven knows what the > people in the next office must think!) and apart > from discovering that > its remarkable close to the Dutch ui, (a bit lower) > I can only > congratulate you on your remarkable perspicacity and > most effective > description. Perhaps you don't have as many flies > and can open your > mouths wider? If nothing else I now really enjoy > that sound! > > Cheers, > Andrys ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] Hi! For those who are curious, my name is pronounced differently in French and English. When speaking English it is jorj jEEbo. In French it is zhorzh zhibo. I forgot to mention a great book on Canadian Engkish called Canajun Eh? which notes such Canadianisms as thre Chateau Laurier hotel in Ottawa coming out as the "Shadow". It also evidences the Canadian preference for ending sentences in eh. Educated Canadians believe they have the most "neutral" accent in English. In the sci fi film "2001 A Space Odyssey" for example, a Canadian voice was deliberately chosen for HAL the renegade computer. Educated Canadian apparently sounds "classier", "more polite", "smarter" and "more educated" to most American ears.America's, most trusted newsman, Peter Jennings - speaks Canadian which is a touch classier even than Standard Broadcast English taught to US newscasters. A few differences: yanks say May zhir we say meh zhir for measure; yanks say zee we say zed for "z". (But have you noticed Agent Zed in "Men In Black?") Sadly lots of our kids now say Zee. I have heard young Vancouverites pronounce spoon as spIHoown (Val speak from the suburban LA Galleria?) Our diphthong in "about" is less sharp than American - as also our diphthong in "nice" - but we DON'T say "aboot" as some Americans claim. The border is very real - while Torontonians and Vancouverites speak dialects of General American, they speak more alike three thousand miles apart than they do in comparison with their closest American neighbours. Washington staters supposedly speak General American - but many have a seemingly stronger "American" accent to Canadian ears than northern Californians or Oregonians. One good shibboleth - in British Columbia, in casual speech people say "thanks." Washingtonians say "uh-huh." Toronto English and Vancouver English are gradually becoming more not less distinct in spite of the homogenizing impact of television - perhaps due to stronger California influence here on the west coast. An East Indian (p.c. South Asian) friend from Montreal notices that a lot of west coast Canadians now end affirmative sentences with a rising intonation (Like to sound less heavy and judgmental I guess man). Eastern and Central Canadians don't (yet). Some rural dialects of Canadian English - Ottawa Valley, Cape Breton, various Newfoundland dialects, have strong Irish, Gaelic or Scots influence - and are often parodied. The only strong regionalism I have encountered in western Canada was the tendency of kids in the East Kootenays (rocky mountain south east of British Columbia to use "fair" for very - as in "fair good." Has anyone else heard this from other places? just another confused Canadian George ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties George: > yanks say May zhir we say meh zhir for measure *Most* Yanks do, not all. For some strange reason, "mey-zhir" rubs me the wrong way. Apparently I am not the only one. I have heard native American English speakers complain about it too. > One good shibboleth - in British Columbia, in casual speech people say "thanks." > Washingtonians say "uh-huh." As far as I know, this "uh-huh" stands for "You're welcome," "Don't mention it" or "Sure" in *response* to "Thank you," at least here in Washington *State*. At first it struck me as strange and impolite, but I have gotten (= another American adaptation of mine) over it and have caught myself saying (or grunting?) it a few times recently. On the whole, I do not find the speech habits of people in Vancouver (which I visit quite often) to be very different. As far as I can tell, it is quite a mixed bag, because the city (the warmest really large city in Canada, not mentioning Victoria) attracts so many people from all over Canada. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 22 22:51:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:51:10 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.22 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language varieties Hi All George wrote: "Do people think on balance it is a good or a bad thing for language conservation?" with regards to comedy books on regional dialects. I think it can be a bad thing. Whilst looking for books in Germany on regional dialects, I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough - but then any books on the local dialect are usually to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious study of dialects I've found most of the books to be pretty useless. There are however a few humourous books on dialect out there which are also quite informative. Going from my own 'Estuary English', there's a book by Paul Coggle (I haven't got it to hand, but I think it's called 'Estuary English' or 'Do you speak Estuary?') which goes from humourous introductions into a closer description of the differences with RP English, and it also points out some of the differences with Cockney, all done in a fairly amusing but informative way. I disagree with some of his descriptions, and he does have a nasty habit of reducing the Estuary speaker to a 'shell suit wearer', which I object to, never having worn one in my life, but it is a good introduction. So comedy dialects as a means of promoting a dialect - ok, but only if they're quite accurate. Gary (OK he points my name out as being one typical of an Estuary speaker, along with Sharon, which is my sister's name!) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 15:03:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:03:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kirky Subject: Source of "Opoe"? Greetings to all, I am new to the list and have found it very interesing so far. I was wondering if anyone has come across the word "Opoe" in any of their language/ etymology research? My grandmother, who is of Frisian decent (she was born in Jubbega, near It Hearrenfean) requested that my brother and I call her 'Opoe', while living in Australia, instead of 'Nanna' which we had previously called her from Canada. As we know, "Beppe" is Grandmother in Frisian, and "Oma" is Grandmother in Nederlander. My family and I have been puzzling over the language/ etymological source of "Opoe" for some years now, and I would be greatful to anyone who may be able to shed light on the issue. Sincerely, Kirstina [Bray] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 16:10:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:10:21 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Kirky Subject: Source of "Opoe"? Greetings to all, Incidentally for those interested in a humourous view of 'Strine'/ 'Strayan'/ or Australian as most people know it, there is "The Dinkum Dictionary: A ripper guide to Aussie English" by Lenie (Midge) Johansen. This has some gems such as 'cackleberry' meaning an egg, and 'checking (one's) eyelids for holes' meaning having a nap :) Sincerely, Kirstina [Bray] ---------- From: Kirky Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] Hi all, This is interesting. A well known Canadian stereotype is that everyone ends a sentence in 'eh' as emphasis, it's origin well known from early French influence. Eg. if an Australian says "G'day mate", a Canadian says "Good day, eh!". I've noticed a number of Canadian immigrants in Australia, to the point where there is a Toronto in Canada Bay, in the Sydney Region NSW. As the noticable rise in 'oui' (oh-u-e) for 'o' (oh) in South Australia may be attributed to New Zealand migrants, perhaps this influx of 'eh' might be from Canadian ones? Could be much earlier influences of course, but it's something to ponder. Kirstina [Bray] ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: language varieties Hoi allemaal, Gary Taylor wrote: "I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough - but then any books on the local dialect are usually to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious study of dialects I've found most of the books to be pretty useless." First I would like to say I'm not attacking you Gary. Perhaps I'm just in a bad mood, but some of the discussions are far above me and I feel quite ignorant. I know many on this list are doing whatever they can to protect and promote the languages we so dearly love, but I think any "serious" book on the study of dialects is useful and I haven't even seen them. At least someone out there is trying, which is more than I can say for the average person. Secondly, I don't mean to brag on my methods as a teacher in a high school, but many of my students have said that they actually learned German in my class in comparison to other foreign language classes where they may have learned how to say "hello, good morning, my name is, goodbye" ...and that's about it. I know my methods will always need work, but at the moment, they are working. I would like to take my ideas into the realm of minority languages from this list, particularly Dutch, Zeeuws, Frysk, Afrikaans and now, thanks to Ron at least one Native American language that has only about 6,000 speakers here in the state of Florida. But, I need help, because I can only read Afrikaans (can't speak it) and can read and speak Dutch with numerous errors. I am currently writing my own textbook to promote here in the schools, because most of them are terrible. The textbook will be very concise without a lot of "useless pictures" (one need only get on the internet to see pictures of Germany, etc.) and has the students reading simple texts in the language very quickly. I would really like to do that with some of the other lowlands languages, but as I have said, I need to learn the basics of those languages too. If someone were to translate my "textbook" into those languages I could learn them at the same time I teach my students. Many might say that one could not introduce these languages in the schools in the U.S., but I say, why not try. Who has tried? I'd like to try! I have a lot more I could say on this, but I might need a book to do it and I've already taken enough of your time. Okay (oh that word, okay, o.k.)Ron, take your best shot at me! Kevin Browne ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: Class accents Bonjour, y'all! Of course it is not just low status accents that get parodied. There used to be quite a lot of people who spoke a sort of toffee nose Southern Vancouver Island British accent - still heard "behind the tweed curtain" in Oak Bay - but gradually dying out it appears. About twenty years ago I was told that west coast naval officers had been ordered by their eastern higher ups to stop "putting it on." Our local MP still speaks a moderate form of it - and his political detractors - such as myself - sometimes refer to him as David Onderson (real name Anderson) to make the point. The dialect survey of British Columbia English which I worked on in university found traces of it in upper class Vancouver neighbourhoods and in the posh rural Okanagan Valley - so apparently it was once quite real and not "put on" until later recognition of its value by social climbers. By the mid 20th century its speakers were pretty universally thought to be using it against the rest of us. ant vs. awnt for aunt was a classic test. Interestingly enough, a transitional form developed with a sort of mid vowel ahnt (also used tomaeto not tomawto or tomayto) and this was not heard as a snob accent by the rest of us. I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist, for instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this northern "high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"? which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"? Curiously yours George ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Kevin: > Okay (oh that word, okay, o.k.)Ron, take your best shot at me! Hi, Kev! No shot from me, partly because I feel too darn sleepy, and partly because I don't have any issue with what you said. So once again you are getting away unscathed, at least as far as I am concerned. I always appreciate your enthusiasm and your willingness to take fresh looks at old issues and to "think outside the box" (sorry), and no doubt by many of your students appreciate them as well. George: > I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their > pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist, for > instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an > aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this northern > "high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"? > which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"? This is becoming a thing of the past. I am old enough to remember that general type of "better" North German "accent" quite well. These days it is mostly aged upper- and upper-middle-class Northerners who pronounce German like that. In Hamburg, Bremen, Rostock and Lübeck it used to be or still is referred to as "Hanseatisch." It is how most well-educated and -situated North Germans used to speak, especially in the cities, the upper-class equivalent of low-class Missingsch (German dialects on Lowlands Saxon [Low German] substrates), which is also fading away. Both varieties have in common certain Lowlands Saxon phonological rules. The pronunciation of syllable-final /g/ as [x] (as though written ), and in many cases a preceding long vowel is shortened. Thus, you get words like _Tag_ [t_hax] 'day' (as though written vs. Standard [t_ha:k], cf. LS _Dag_ [dax]) and _Zug_ [ts_hUx] 'train' (as though written vs. Standard [ts_hu:k], cf. LS _Tog_ [t_hOx]). (Some Hanseats may say [ts_hu:x] with a long vowel.) Syllable-final /r/ is "deleted," i.e., changes into a vowel, as in LS; e.g., _Mark_ [mQ:k] (South Hamburg) ~ [ma:k] (North Hamburg) 'mark'. These two features are fairly persistent; they can still be observed in upper- and lower-class Northern German. Pronouncing _st..._ as [st] and _sp..._ as [sp] (as in English, Dutch, Danish, etc.) and using an apical (toungue-tip) /r/, both derived from LS, are two common upper- and lower-class North German features that are now on their way out. Most people now pronounce _st..._ as _scht..._ and _sp..._ as _schp..._, and they use the uvular (throat) /r/ (similar to the French /r/). The main differences between now moribund upper-class North German (NG) and lower-class Missingsch (M) are that NG distinguishes dative and accusative while M does not, NG tends to follow Standard German syntactic rules (e.g., _Damit habich nich(t)s zu tuun_ 'I don't have anything to do with it/that.') while M tends to follow LS syntax (e.g., _Da happich niks mit zu (~ missu) tuun_ 'I don't have anything to do with it/that.' vs. Standard _Damit habe ich nichts zu tun._, LS _Daar heff ik niks mit to doon._), and M uses far, far more LS loanwords than does NG. In Missingsch, as in LS, there is no phonetic difference between (1) _machen_ 'to make', 'to do', and (2) _mögen_ 'to like' in most persons, while many NG speakers will make a difference: Standard NG Missingsch LS ich mache ['max@] ich mach(e) [max(e)] ich mach [max] ik mag [max] ich mag [ma:k] ich mach [max] ich mach [max] ik mag [max] Also, NG speakers may be more inclined to distinguish 'it' from 'that', while M speakers (like most LS speakers) never do: Standard: Es regnet. NG: Es reechnet. M: Das reechnet. LS: Dat regent. 'It rains.', 'It is raining.' Standard: Ich mag es gern. NG: Ich mach es geern(e). M: Ich mach das (~ machas) geerne. LS: Ik mag (~ mach) dat geern.* 'I like it.' * Some LS dialects have retained old _it_ ~ _et_ 'it'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 16:34:20 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:34:20 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.23 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, Since my last administrative message we have been joined by people from the following places: China: Hong Kong [1] Netherlands: Gelderland: Wageningen [1] Utrecht: Zeist [1] Spain: Málaga: Estepona [1] Sweden: Uppsala: Uppsala [1] Västmanland: Kolsva [1] Turkey: Izmir: Selcuk [1] United Kingdom: England: Lincolnshire: Boston [1] United States of America: Kentucky: Louisville [1] Minnesota: Milaca [1] Ohio: Findlay [1] Harveysburg [1] Wilmington [1] ? [1] Welcome to all of them! It is important that all subscribers, "old" and new, are familiar with the rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). The most frequent mistakes in posting submissions are not giving ones real or full name, and not keeping topics apart. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 16:39:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:39:00 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (01) [E] Hi! About the word Opoe... that's the normal word for grandmother in Salland, Eastern Netherlands. Bye! Wim wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Etymology Kirstina Bray wrote: > I am new to the list and have found it very interesing so far. I was > wondering if anyone has come across the word "Opoe" in any of their > language/ etymology research? My grandmother, who is of Frisian decent > (she was born in Jubbega, near It Hearrenfean) requested that my > brother and I call her 'Opoe', while living in Australia, instead of > 'Nanna' which we had previously called her from Canada. As we know, > "Beppe" is Grandmother in Frisian, and "Oma" is Grandmother in > Nederlander. My family and I have been puzzling over the language/ > etymological source of "Opoe" for some years now, and I would be > greatful to anyone who may be able to shed light on the issue. Hello Kirstina, as far as I know, _opoe_ is Urban Frisian for _granny_ (Urban Frisian is a dialect group which is strongly influenced by Dutch, it developed in the major towns of Friesland, e.g. Leeuwarden, Heerenveen, Dokkum, Sneek, Harlingen, Franeker etc.) You can read about it at our new project site 'Lowlands Talk' at http://lowlands-l.net/talk By the way, another Dutch word for _granny_ is _opoe_ as well... (grandpa & grandma = opa & opoe / opa & oma) Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 19:58:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:58:08 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E] Dear Lowlanders, I just spent a few days in the Lüneburger Heide, north-east of Hannover (Hanover if you must), and found Plattdüütsch to be alive and well there. I was especially thrilled to see a Lower Saxon edition of Harry Potter in a bookstore in Celle - volumes one through four! Regards, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 20:37:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:37:56 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Dear Lowlanders, Does any of you know if the Russian word _knopka_ 'button' is a loanword, and, if so, if its origin is Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or Dutch, or could it be Yiddish? The word appears to be a diminutive derivation (_-ka_). LS and Dutch have _knoop_ for 'button'. Yiddish has _knop_ for 'button', often _knepele_ in the diminutive. Other Slavonic languages for 'button': Belarusian: guzik Bulgarian: kopche, buton Croatian: dugme Czech: knoflik (< German _Knopf_?), tlačítko Polish: guzik Serbian: dugme Slovak: gombík, tlačítko Slovene: gump, glavič I can't help but sneak in a try to see if the special characters above and my bad Russian get through to you. Pardon me if it's garbled garbage. Привет, дорогие друзья! Вы знаете этимологию российского слова "кнопка"? Интересно, прибыло ли слово от голландского языка или нижнесаксонского (нижненемецкого) языка, или прибыло ли слово от немецкого языка евреев? Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 22:04:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:04:10 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.23 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, My little experiment with East-European-specific and Cyrillic letters (today's last "Etymology") "sort of" worked. The message defaulted to Unicode mode. If your email system allows you to switch to Unicode encoding (which it should), and if you have a Unicode compatible font loaded (which you should), you should be able to read it. If you do have a Unicode font installed, go to our archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html and select the mentioned message: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210d&L=lowlands-l&D=1&F=& S=&P=1113 You will then be able to see all "special" characters, because our hosts at LINGUIST have switched all of their presentation to default to Unicode mode (as befits any group dealing with languages). If you do not yet have Unicode fonts, I suggest you install at least one, preferable Arial, Times New Roman and Courier New. Allen Wood's presentation is a good resource to start with: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html Using Unicode fonts would enable us to use letters that are outside our current range, including the International Phonetic Alphabet. I would like to propose that those who wish to do so go ahead and use Unicode mode. As a courtesy to others they should signal this at the beginning of their messages (e.g., "This message is in Unicode" or just "Unicode"). Suggestions welcome. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 22:28:54 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:28:54 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (05) [E] Gabriele wrote: "I just spent a few days in the Lüneburger Heide, north-east of Hannover (Hanover if you must), and found Plattdüütsch to be alive and well there." Moin Gabriele, moin Lowlanders, Please, Gabriele, tell us more about what you saw (and heard). I´d like some good news to be able to share your optimism. You say "alive and well". According to what you saw, what percentage of 0 to 20 year olds (who will be the active midlifers in 30 years time) are able to speak the language? Whenever I go home (Nordheide) I conclude that this percentage is approaching zero (certainly a small fraction of one percent). Looking forward to better news. Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.15 (09) [E] Ron wrote [about L-S]: " and there are not tens of millions of speakers but at the very, very most ten million." Ron, I meant 50 years ago. There must have been more 10 mio.? Whatever the old and new figures, the decline is dazzling. Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 22:32:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:32:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= [Unicode] From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] > Привет, дорогие друзья! > Вы знаете этимологию российского слова "кнопка"? Интересно, прибыло ли слово > от голландского языка или нижнесаксонского (нижненемецкого) языка, или > прибыло ли слово от немецкого языка евреев? > > Reinhard/Ron Ron, My wife (a native) insists, it must be a German loanword. Take it for what it´s worth, I suspect it´s only a gut feeling of hers. Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 22:33:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:33:27 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= [Unicode] From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] > Привет, дорогие друзья! > Вы знаете этимологию российского слова "кнопка"? Интересно, прибыло ли слово > от голландского языка или нижнесаксонского (нижненемецкого) языка, или > прибыло ли слово от немецкого языка евреев? > > Reinhard/Ron Ron, My wife (a native) insists, it must be a German loanword. Take it for what it´s worth, I suspect it´s only a gut feeling of hers. Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 23:11:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:11:57 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: lingoman at webtv.net Subject: language varieties Since we've strayed into Hanseatic pronunciation of High German (well, of course, the substrate justifies our straying), I wanted to add a peculiarity I heard in Hamburg. More than once, I heard (lower-class?) speakers use something that sounded very much like Hamboich! Assuming I heard correctly, how would you classify this, Ron? It doesn't strike my ear as "fein"... Sean Roach ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Hi, Sean, Lowlanders! Yes, "Hambuich" ['hambUIC] or "Hamboich" ['hamboIC] for "Hamburg" ("fein": ['hambURk]) are typical of North German pronunciation, rhyming with that of _durch_ ([dUIC] ~ [doIC], "fein": [dURC]) 'through', and this applies to all names with "...burg". Here is my theory, based on the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) substrate. LS of these areas *always* changes non-initial /r/ to a vowel, and it *always* fricativizes final /g/. Thus, you have _seggen_ ['zEgN=] 'to say' vs. _segg!_ [zEC] 'say!', _dörch_ [d9:C] ~ [d9.3`C] 'through', or _Bargen_ ['ba:gN=] 'mountains' vs. _Barg_ [ba:x] 'mountain', similarly _Borgen_ ['bO:gN=] ~ [bO.agN=] 'fortresses' vs. _Borg_ [bO:x] ~ [bO.ax] 'fortress'. In LS it is _Hamborg_ ['ha.mbO:x] ~ ['ha.mbO.ax]. Some Missingsch speakers pronounce or used to pronounce it like that, but, perhaps with the advent of uvular /r/ in combination with exposure to more southerly German [C] rendering of final /g/, the fricative has been fronted, and the /r/ therefore had to be vocalized frontally. Note also that in Missingsch and other not so "fein" North German dialects, /l/ may get vocalized in the same position; e.g., _Milch_ [me.IC] ("fein": [mIlC]) 'milk'. This happens in some LS dialects as well; e.g., _Melk_ [mE.lk] ~ [mE.Ik] ~ [mE:k] 'milk', _Bülg_ [bY.lC] ~ [bY.IC] ~ [bY:C] 'wave', _Bülgen_ [bY.lgN=] ~ [bY.IgN=] ~ [bY:gN=] 'waves'. (Note that Dutch dialects prefer to break up such clusters by means of epenthetic vowels; e.g., _melk_ ['mEWl at k] 'milk'.) Hummel, Hummel! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 24 14:59:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:59:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E] George wrote: "I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist, for instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this northern "high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"? which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"? Curiously yours George" Hi George, I have nothing to add to Rons assessment of phonological interference from Low German in the spoken Standard German of the North, but because of my being an actor, I can tell you a bit about "stage German" (Bühnendeutsch) which has often been called the only true spoken standard of German. I would disagree here to a certain extent as to whether it can be considered a spoken standard since many of its characteristics are simply an over-enunciated version of a reading pronunciation (Leseaussprache). Some characteristics of "Bühnendeutsch": - long and short vowels kept apart before /r/: .) stark - Stärke (short) uvular /r/ pronounced; .) Fahrt - Fährte (long) uv. /r/ weakly pronounced or vocalised (scha-offglide); - long /e:/ and long <ä> (E:/ distinct (whether etymologically justified or not => Leseaussprache! Reading pronunciation); /za:l/ - /ze:l@/ - /se:l@/; - = schwa in present participle pronounced: /- at nt/ also in dat.sg. <-em> /- at m/ => /`gro:sn./ vs. /`gro:s at m/, - analogical lengthening from the plural forms in historically short- vowel monosyllabic singular forms are the rule, as in Upper German, i.e. /ta:k/ - /ta:g@/, and not Middle High German /tak/ or Northern Standard German (tax/; - initial is voiced, except in loanwords, i.e. /zEks/ vs. /sEks/. Northern German influence is to be seen in: - the /c,/ pronunciation in final unstressed <-ig> in /kö:nIc,/ vs. Upper German /könIk/ and /gÜnstIc,/ vs UG /günstIk/, (though some would also accept this pronunciation on stage, it is not the rule, however). - distribution of Glottal stop before word-initial vowels is like Low German, and quite unlike the Upper German dialects. The rolled /r/ is no longer the rule and is heard less and less, and considered to be quite affected. Generally Austrian actors get away with it more easily as rolled or trilled /r/s are often in the phonetic repertoire of Austrian Upper German dialects, and it thus sounds more natural. It is rarly heard on German stages unless a degree of affection or achaism is intended. It is often heard when German is sung, as in opera, operetta or Lied-Repertoire, rarely though in Musical, chanson, or Brecht-Lieder, for example. "Guten Tach" has a very Prussian ring to my Austrian/Upper German ear. Greetings, Daniel ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E] G`day, Generally I would agree with what has been said about the Aussie vowels, however the "back" vowel/diphthong for standard E /ou/ retains its diphthongal quality, thouugh fronted and slightly rounded, whereas /i:/ and /u:/ have continued the diphthongal tendencies inherent to Cockney high vowels. So /u:/ and /i:/ are realised with a more closed (and rounded, in the case of /u:/) coda than the onset. The onset is also substantially lower than the onset of most other varieties of English (Cockney, Dixy and Southern Hemisphere varieties excluded). Aussie shifts RP /ae/ to /E/ and /E/ to /e/, and /I/ to /i/. As correctly observed New Zealand goes even further shifting /e/ to /I/ and original /I/ to /@/ (= schwa/ in the Kiwi schibboleth "f at sh `n ch at ps". Compare South African English and Afrikaans! Striking in both Strine/Strayan and Kiwi is the reduction of unstressed /I/ in final closed syllables to /@/. Excluded /eks`klüyd at d/ - /Iks`clüyd at d/. Say yuh lider (ouside perception!!!), Dään ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E] Since we are still dancing around the Australian vowels (and I want Andrys to sit in his office at Monash pronouncing sounds and freaking out his neighbors), I would like to present the next exhibit, your honors, namely, the humble sound /i/, i.e. that one usually spelled "ee" or "ea", etc. It seems to me that many Aussies pronounced words such as "beat" (maybe I'm wrong on the example, 'cause I haven't figured out all the limitations) with an /i/ that kind of starts with something else, something more central. Now here's what I wonder: while I know VERY little about Irish and possible influence of Irish Gaelic on Hiberno-English or other forms of English where the Irish immigrated, I wonder if this sound in Australian doesn't reflect something like the Irish (Gaelic) "broad" sounds vs. the "slender" sounds (terms used in an Irish book). Basically slender there means that the consonants are palatalized, while the "broad" are not, and tend to make the vowels sound more rounded. Any takers on this one? Any folks knowledgeable of Irish that can put me out of my "misery"? Andrys: go into your office, and start pronouncing: beat, feet, street, neat, meet, read, bead, .... Stan ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (10) [E] Concerning the Hamboich-pronounciation: This is a common Northern German accent stretching from the Rhineland to the Danish border which is based on the Low Saxon tendency to pronounce all post-vocalic g's as German ch, somebody from Duisburg would call his town "Duesbuich", I myself do the same, if we have almost lost the Low Saxon language in Northern Germany, at least we can try to preserve some distinctive accent in the High German spoken there. To pronounce a post-vocalic g as ch is actually correct German, in particular in words as "Koenig", please check the "Duden" (the standart German dictionary) for this. Sometimes foreigners who learn German have a tendency to be hyper-correct, I have heard foreigners pronouncing the town of Rostock as "Roschtock", though German is fairly phonetic in compare to English it still has a lot of deviations ! ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (10) [E] Ron wrote: > Note also that in Missingsch and other not so "fein" North German dialects, > /l/ may get vocalized in the same position; e.g., _Milch_ [me.IC] ("fein": > [mIlC]) 'milk'. This happens in some LS dialects as well; e.g., _Melk_ > [mE.lk] ~ [mE.Ik] ~ [mE:k] 'milk', _Bülg_ [bY.lC] ~ [bY.IC] ~ [bY:C] 'wave', > _Bülgen_ [bY.lgN=] ~ [bY.IgN=] ~ [bY:gN=] 'waves'. (Note that Dutch > dialects prefer to break up such clusters by means of epenthetic vowels; > e.g., _melk_ ['mEWl at k] 'milk'.) Actually, this is so ingrained in me that, when I'm tired or distracted, I tend to drop my Rs and Ls all over the place, in any language! My first husband was Dutch, and when I first learned the language, I told him - in Dutch - that something was "waam" (at least I didn't say "wööm", like a good Hanoverian should). I didn't see why he didn't get it, since the word "warm" is the same in Dutch and German, after all - or so I thought. I had to spell it out for him, and then he said: "Oh, you mean warrrrrrem!" That particular r, of course, gets dropped in English, too, although it is pronounced in "farm", "harm", etc. Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (08) [E] Moin Mike, well, of course, I cannot quantify that from a brief two-days stay. But I overheard some middle-aged people talking in Platt in a pub, and there were a great many books to be had, and it also appeared a lot in writing on brochures, posters, etc. I don't know about children, of course, but I had the impression that, at least in the villages, most people over thirty would be able to switch without a problem. And their children should at least have a passive knowledge (one hopes). If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt... All the best, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language varieties Dear All I wrote previously "I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough - but then any books on the local dialect are usually to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious study of dialects I've found most of the books to be pretty useless." The kind of books I was talking about tend not to be serious, and they have the affect of making a joke out of the local dialect. As I went on to say, there are some excellent books out there about dialects - however, still too often classified as 'humourous'. Sorry if I sounded like I was 'diss'ing all dialect books. Gary ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Stan, you wrote (above): > I would like to present the next exhibit, > your honors, namely, the humble sound /i/, i.e. that > one usually spelled "ee" or "ea", etc. > It seems to me that many Aussies pronounced words such > as "beat" (maybe I'm wrong on the example, 'cause I > haven't figured out all the limitations) with an /i/ > that kind of starts with something else, something > more central. I tend to hear that as a diphthong, something like [Ii], especially after labials, as in "beat," "peat" or "meat." Helge, you wrote (above): > Sometimes foreigners who learn German have a > tendency to be hyper-correct, I have heard foreigners > pronouncing the town of Rostock as "Roschtock", though > German is fairly phonetic in compare to English it > still has a lot of deviations ! My all-time "favorite" is _Bundestag_ (the name of the German parliament) as pronounced by American and some British news people who want to demonstrate their German language prowess: "Bundeschta(a)k". They are not aware that there is a morpheme boundary there: _Bundes_ and _Tag_, that /st/ > [St] therefore does not apply. However, Helge, I have heard many a German say _Roschtock_, clearly because the etymology (which is Slavonic) is not transparent. People may be thinking of _Stock_ [StOk] 'stick' when they say it. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 24 15:05:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:05:55 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Aryunov Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (09) [E] Hi Lowlanders, At a first glance the word resembles the High German 'Knopf' with the similar meaning. So we can deduce: Knopf > knop[ka], where -ka is a diminutive suffix. On the other hand 'p' instead of 'pf' makes me think of Lowlandic rather than High German or Yiddish. The other possibility may be that 'pf' is very uncommon for Russian so it might have been modified by natives. It is interesting that -ke as diminutive is used also in Frisian (West & East) and Low Saxon. The West Frisian word for button is 'knopke'. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 2:33 AM Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (09) [E] > > [Unicode] > > From: Mike-club > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] > > > Привет, дорогие друзья! > > Вы знаете этимологию российского слова "кнопка"? Интересно, прибыло ли > слово > > от голландского языка или нижнесаксонского (нижненемецкого) языка, или > > прибыло ли слово от немецкого языка евреев? > > > > Reinhard/Ron > > Ron, > My wife (a native) insists, it must be a German > loanword. Take it for what it´s worth, I suspect > it´s only a gut feeling of hers. > Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Antero Helasvuo Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] Dear Ron. I'm happy to tell you that your "garbled garbage" reached me quite ungarbled. I'm using Eudora e-mail on Windows 98 platform with the Scandinavian character set. When I made a reply in preview mode by highlighting the Russian portion of your letter the result was this: >??????, ??????? ??????! >?? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? "??????"? ?????????, ??????? ?? ????? >?? ???????????? ????? ??? ???????????????? (??????????????) ?????, ??? >??????? ?? ????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? However "replying" the whole letter it turned out this way: ÐYÑ?ивеÑ,, доÑ?огие дÑ?ÑfзÑOя! Ð'Ñ< знаеÑ,е эÑ,имологиÑZ Ñ?оссийского слова "кнопка"? Ð~нÑ,еÑ?есно, пÑ?ибÑ<ло ли слово оÑ, голландского язÑ<ка или нижнесаксонского (нижненемеÑ?кого) язÑ<ка, или пÑ?ибÑ<ло ли слово оÑ, немеÑ?кого язÑ<ка евÑ?еев? Unfathomable unsense. The same happened, when I really opened the letter. Nevertheless copying it from the preview mode to Word 2000 was successful. In Finnish there are several words that have their origin in Swedish (knapp = button etc) or pehaps German/Low Saxon: nappi = button, nappula = game piece, näppylä = pimple, nuppi = knob, noppa = dice, plus a host of colloquial variations. The initial "k" has fallen off due to the natural structure of Finnish. By the way a tricky question in examinations is generally called "knoppi". About the Russian "knopka" one could speculate, that the use of buttons in clothing came to Russia rather late in the history. Compare it for instance to their word for pencil, "carandash". Interestingly enough the Russian word for fingernail is "nogotj" and for garlic "chesnok" (perhaps "itchy nail" or something), which make me think of the Finnish word for beak (or nozzle) "nokka". Who knows if it was not some Jewish tailor who introduced the word into Russian. Antero Helasvuo Pitäjänmäentie 35 D 32 00370 HELSINKI Finland Tel (fax on demand) + 358 9 555396 antero.helasvuo at welho.com ---------- From: Kirky planetkirky at yahoo.com.au Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (04) [E] Hello Wim , Hello Mathieu, Thank you so much for the information! It certainly has cleared up where my Opoe (first name Tite) would have first heard it to remember it (esp, as she was born near It Hearrenfean, and also lived there for a time). Interesting on the L-Lowlands site that in a Dialect: Isle of Wangerooge (Germany, extinct 1950) recorded in 1927, _Oopel_ meant _granddad_. Kirstina [Bray] > From: Wim > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (01) [E] > > Hi! > > About the word Opoe... that's the normal word for grandmother in > Salland, Eastern Netherlands. > Bye! > > Wim wkv at home.nl > [Wim Verdoold] > > ---------- > > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Etymology > > Kirstina Bray wrote: > > > I am new to the list and have found it very interesing so far. I > was > > wondering if anyone has come across the word "Opoe" in any of their > > language/ etymology research? My grandmother, who is of Frisian > decent > > (she was born in Jubbega, near It Hearrenfean) requested that my > > brother and I call her 'Opoe', while living in Australia, instead > of > > 'Nanna' which we had previously called her from Canada. As we > know, > > "Beppe" is Grandmother in Frisian, and "Oma" is Grandmother in > > Nederlander. My family and I have been puzzling over the language/ > > etymological source of "Opoe" for some years now, and I would be > > greatful to anyone who may be able to shed light on the issue. > > Hello Kirstina, > > as far as I know, _opoe_ is Urban Frisian for _granny_ (Urban Frisian > is a > dialect group which is strongly influenced by Dutch, it developed in > the > major > towns of Friesland, e.g. Leeuwarden, Heerenveen, Dokkum, Sneek, > Harlingen, > Franeker etc.) You can read about it at our new project site > 'Lowlands Talk' > at > http://lowlands-l.net/talk > > By the way, another Dutch word for _granny_ is _opoe_ as well... > (grandpa & > grandma = opa & opoe / opa & oma) > > Regards, > Mathieu ==================================END=================================== > * Please submit postings to . > * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. > * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. > * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") > are > to be sent to or at > . > ======================================================================= ===== ~~"Imagination is the foundation of Knowledge"~~ Albert Einstein (balancing instinct and logic :) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 24 20:03:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:03:32 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (01) [E] Ron wrote: > My all-time "favorite" is _Bundestag_ (the name of the German parliament) as > pronounced by American and some British news people who want to demonstrate > their German language prowess: "Bundeschta(a)k". They are not aware that > there is a morpheme boundary there: _Bundes_ and _Tag_, that /st/ > [St] > therefore does not apply. A little off the sibilant subject, my favorite morpheme boundary mistake by English speakers is Luf-thansa. Gustaaf ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 24 20:25:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:25:27 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= [Unicode] From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (02) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language varieties > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Does any of you know if the Russian word _knopka_ 'button' is a > loanword, > and, if so, if its origin is Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or Dutch, or > could > it be Yiddish? The word appears to be a diminutive derivation > (_-ka_). LS > and Dutch have _knoop_ for 'button'. Yiddish has _knop_ for 'button', > often > _knepele_ in the diminutive. > > Other Slavonic languages for 'button': > Belarusian: guzik > Bulgarian: kopche, buton > Croatian: dugme > Czech: knoflik (< German _Knopf_?), tlačítko > Polish: guzik > Serbian: dugme > Slovak: gombík, tlačítko > Slovene: gump, glavič Dear Ron, In Flemish we say "knopke / knopka" or "knoptje". There is also "ne knop" plural: knop'n. Greatings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] Dear Reinhard, > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language varieties > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Does any of you know if the Russian word _knopka_ 'button' is a loanword, > and, if so, if its origin is Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or Dutch, or could > it be Yiddish? The word appears to be a diminutive derivation (_-ka_). LS > and Dutch have _knoop_ for 'button'. Yiddish has _knop_ for 'button', often > _knepele_ in the diminutive. I cannot give an answer to your question, but let me ask a very tiny thing about your message question. Dutch "knop" originally was a sphere shaped object (on a pin) to open things like drawers and doors or to use as a switch, and this later became to mean also to a button to press on machines. Dutch "knoop" is knot, but also a button on clothes. Which of the ones is meant with Russian _knopka_? Kind regards, Floor. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hoi, Floor! > Which of > the ones is meant with Russian _knopka_? I found the following glosses under _knopka_ (кнопка): 1. key 2. knob 3. pin 4. push-button 5. push-pin 6. snap 7. stud Under _pugovica_ (пуговица) I found only 'button'. In a word, I'm not sure and leave it to someone more knowledgeable. I have a feeling that _pugovica_ corresponds to Dutch and LS _knoop_. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 03:46:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:46:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) [E] On Monday 21 October 2002 12:08, Cr?ost?ir wrote: > "Eh" seems to be spreading heavily in Perth. I picked it up from there and > now use it all the time, eh. Perth natives tend to see it as very New > Zealand in origin, through a New South Wales medium, eh. :) I think it's a > great tag. Must be a Commonwealth thing. There is a joke around here (which is close to Alberta) about the spelling of Canada: C, eh? N, eh? D, eh? There is a similar pattern is some US speakers where every sentence is ended on a rising pitch like a question, but there is no tag added. It can be difficult to tell if it is a declarative sentence or really a question. bowman ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] On Monday 21 October 2002 17:02, Reinhard wrote: > One phrase I remember from the former is "Emma Chisitt?" for "How > much is it?" ?They are kind of silly (in part because of deliberately moved > word boundaries), but they are intertaining enough to have been sold well. It took me a while to make the connection between the two phrases. I have never seen the original, but I was always skeptical that 'Mad Max' had to be dubbed for the US market -- until I saw 'Sexy Beast', I though it was just me, but walking out of the theatre, more than one person mentioned subtitles would have been nice. Not quite BBC English. bowman ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 14:31:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:31:45 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.25 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] Am I right in assuming that the Canadian "eh?" is derived from the French "hein"? Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] May I add to the "eh"-discussion that there is one dialect in the UK which has uses an "eh" in the end of every sentence and that is the one of the City of Carlisle in Cumbria, the locals put a short "ae" almost at any sentence they say, like "that's really weird, ae"... . The dialect of Carlisle is is many respects similar to Northumbrian but has distinctive characteristics and is influenced by the northern Cumbrian dialects as well. They, for instance, swop the "h", they drop the h in words as house, therefore pronouncing it "oose" but add one in words like "oil" making it sound like "hoil". ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] Dear all, bowman wrote: "a similar pattern is some US speakers where every sentence is ended on a rising pitch like a question, but there is no tag added. It can be difficult to tell if it is a declarative sentence or really a question." I use "eh" to take the edge of a sentence... e.g., "Oh, that's really bad, eh..." I always think of it more as "hey" than "eh". An earlier contributor postulated that Canadians in Australia may have brough the tag with them although I'm not so sure. I picked it up from South African friends (who had also spent time in Zambia) in Perth - the parents were Afrikaans speakers and the children English monoglots. Everyone I quizzed about "eh" origin in Western Australia firmly stuck to a New Zealand via New South Wales origin. Does it occur in Afrikaans (especially Cape Town "Coloured" Afrikaans if there is such a variant)? I think there is definitely some cause to classify "eh" as a general Commonwealth (specifically ex-dominion) English feature. I have never heard it in Britain or Ireland. "innit" seems to enjoy comparative currency to "eh" in England these days, e.g., "Oh, that's really bad, innit..." but that is a very modern development (last ten years) from south London working class English as far as I know - easy to track. Of course, there is the very real possibility that South Africans, New Zealanders or Australians might have transplanted "eh" to Canada. Immigration between dominions in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries was extensive and frequently underestimated. Go raibh maith agaibh, Críostóir. ---------- From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] At 08:46 PM 10/24/02 -0700, robert bowman wrote: >Must be a Commonwealth thing. There is a joke around here (which is close to >Alberta) about the spelling of Canada: C, eh? N, eh? D, eh? There is a >similar pattern is some US speakers where every sentence is ended on a >rising pitch like a question, but there is no tag added. It can be >difficult to >tell if it is a declarative sentence or really a question. A fellow musician of mine and I used to have names for several of the various keys, such as the Key of Enlightenment (G), the Key of Revelation (C), the Key of Existence (B), and the Key of Canada (A). Of course, Homer Simpson has Canadian roots (true fact), which is why we say "Cana-duh". Yes, the rising pattern is sometimes what gives us away in the States, even when we studiously avoid the "eh" word. My problem in adapting to Canadian is that I still get the "root" word wrong, which is pronounced "rute" instead of "ruet" here. This despite constant mocking by my wife, together with my pronunciation of "helicopter" and "plaza". Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Language varieties As for rising intonation, I find this to occur in Australian English as well, especially in women's speech, more consistently and universally in many Irish, especially Northern Irish dialects of English. When I was new to the United States, having come from Australia, I would sometimes also use rising intonation in statements, and people would occasionally ask me if it was a question. My theory is that rising intonation in statements is a further development of constructions with tag questions (e.g., "..., isn't it?"), where the tag is omitted. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 14:38:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:38:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (04) [E] About knoop en knop. Knoopje, knopje. Hi! Knopje or knop, means button in Dutch as in a button on machines. Knoop means button as on your jacket. And "in de knoop" means tangled. Like when a rope gets mixed up. There are many words that have to do with boats sails and ropes too that went to Russia with Tzar Peter. After he left Zaandam. Where he learned to build ships... So that word might be Dutch.. Wim. wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (04) [E] Dear Lowlanders: Just a guess-- One of the oldest form of buttons is the button knot, still used some in China and in patient hospital gowns. Jorge Potter ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Etymology Jorge, > One of the oldest form of buttons is the button knot, still used some in > China and in patient hospital gowns. I think you are right. First, people used pins (brooches) or laces to tie together their clothes, and then they invented a knot that could be pushed through a hole --the ancestor of the button. Yes, it's still used in traditonal Chinese clothing and also in some Western clothing at different times of fashion. Isn't that what is called a "frog"? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 16:35:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:35:46 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.25 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language Varieties Hello All Críostóir wrote about 'innit' being a South London development which has spread within the last ten years. I'm a North East Londoner and I can remember fellow students laughing at me saying that when I first went to university, in 1989 - a bit shocked to think that it might be a development from the wrong side of the Thames :) To revenge myself for comments about English speakers' pronunciations of 'Rostock' and 'Bundestag', my personal favourites from German pronunciations of English have to be 'willitch' (village) and especially 'wally ball' (volley ball). These make me chuckle every time I hear them! Also Gabriele mentioned about dropping her 'r's and 'l's , and mentioned that the r was retained in farm. She'll be pleased to know that in London we too drop our r's and l's as often as possible, and I would never pronounce the r in farm! Think I can get away with this one - three different subjects in one mail. I think they've all previously appeared as 'Language Varieties' so I hope I don't experience the 'wrath of Ron' :) (Just kidding - you do a great job!) Gary ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 16:37:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:37:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] Sorry about that, Ron. Here's the same message, minus all the Cyrillic. I don't know why it didn't come through, and I really don't know how to change the encoding. I was able to read the Cyrillic and diacritics in your original message. Kevin Caldwell ------------------ I don't know the origin of "knopka", but have always assumed it is a loanword. Any of the possible origins you proposed would make sense (Dutch from the days of Peter the Great, LS from the days of the Hanseatic League, Yiddish from the large Jewish population). "Knopka" only applies to a button you push, or to a knob of any kind. A button on clothing is "pugovitsa". Also, the Russian word for Yiddish is "idish". Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net) > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language varieties > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Does any of you know if the Russian word _knopka_ 'button' is a > loanword, and, if so, if its origin is Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or > Dutch, or could it be Yiddish? The word appears to be a diminutive > derivation (_-ka_). LS > and Dutch have _knoop_ for 'button'. Yiddish has _knop_ for 'button', > often > _knepele_ in the diminutive. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 16:55:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:55:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: political speak Hi all! Thanks for the comments on Hanseatic north German and stage speech. Fascinating! I have also heard that Prussians tend to pronounce high German more tensely and with a higher pitch in general than do south Germans. Is this true? and if so, is it limited to Prussia or is it a general north German feature? Has anyone else got examples of "quirky" political speecch/informal political labeling? My examples: a "lefty" is a usually affectionate or friendly/humorous term for a left handed person - but a "leftie" is a hostile term for a political left winger - yet I don't recall ever hearing of a "righty" or a "rightie." Calling someone "a Green" is merely descriptive, but "a greenie" is hostile. Calling them "green" adjectivily is ambiguous - it could mean inexperienced or jealous - and might not be a political label at all. "yellow" means cowardly and by extension a "yellow dog" contract means an agreement not to join a union as part of the terms of employment. (The Gaelic for yellow dog "cu buaidh" is an extreme insult). If you call someone "red all over" you probably mean that they are embarresed - but you might mean to insult them as being a communist - and if you say they are "a red" you definitely are. You are in the "pink" if you are healthy - but being "pink" means pro-communist (without admitting to it) There is a political "red" as a noun - but no reddie. No-one is a "pink" either politically - or a "pinkie" either - they are a "pinko!" "Blue" as an personal adjective means sad - but in Quebec it can mean a political conservative - and "true blue" definitely means this throughout Canada. In Quebec a conservative can even be called "a blue." Among political insiders, (but not yet the general population) blue is increasingly used both as a noun and as an adjective to mean "right wing(er) as distinct from "red" as an adjective to mean "moderate conservative!" as distinct from a blue - and as short for "red Tory." No-one calls themselves "a red" - this is still means communist - but they might well say "I'm a red Tory" as this is purely descriptive. Amazingly enough, there are even finer gradations - as some say "powder blue" for slightly right wing conservatives - and "powder pink" (note: NOT "powder red") for slightly left of conservative centre. (If that isn't quirky enough "reform" or "a reformer" in Canadian political jargon means a right wing populist (usually to the right of blue Tories!) and while "progressive" or "a progressive" still means left wing - the official name of the oldest and formerly largest conservative party is the "Progressive Conservative" party. So a"Progressive Conservative" no emphasis means a member or supporter of this party, but PROGRESSIVE conservative means "red Tory." To most media and general Canadian population "Tory" means Progressive Conservative as a description - but some Eastern European descended conservative friends of mine claim it sounds like Anglo exclusivity to them - and they refuse to use it - believing it is derogatory (no pun intended). In the US "Tory" means someone who opposed the American Revolution - but a conservative Democrat can be called either a Tory Democrat (at least in some southern states - or - once more with colour - a blue dog or blue dog Democrat!" Left wing political insiders are also colouring their world -as brown is emerging as an adjective and sometimes a noun for socialists of the less green or anti-green faction. (The educated public knows all about red Tories - but hasn't heard of "brown" politics yet - only of "brownshirts" which means Nazi or neo-Nazi. "White" is merely racially descriptive - but "whitie" is insulting - and "white sheets" are Ku Klux Klan or other white racists. ("skinhead" has the same meaning - but many skinheads are anarchists and really hate this usage) I have not heard other colour words used politically - but "orange" or "orangeman" means Irish/Ulster Protestant or one descended or in sympathy with them - and this could certainly have political connotations. (The opposite is "green" meaning Irish Catholic of course - and having nothing to do with ecology.) "Environmentalist" is a broader term than "green" ("Green" is an official party name) and non-Green environmentalists are starting to call themselves "conservationists" (the old term for environmentalist) to distinguish themselves from those they consider too extreme who they label as "preservationists." Sometimes a term starts as hostile - but is expropriated by its targets. I suspect this of "brown" in the non-green socialist context. A clear example in Canada is "Grit" - coined by the Liberals as a self description ("men of clear grit") it became archaic and is now used only by their blood foes the Tories. Those who support the competing newer and larger conservative party were "reform" as an adjective, or the "reformers" previously mentioned - but now are "alliance" (from the Canadian Alliance) USED AS AN ADJECTIVE. On the other hand, some people who are alliance will say "I'm reform" or "reform at heart" to emphasize their populist or western regional roots/sympathies. Black is a descriptive racial term but to left wingers "a black Tory" used to mean a really fierce or right wing one. To everyone else, it means a Tory of African descent. (one was a federal Cabinet Minister) I have heard "schwarz" means conservative in Germany. Is this still the case? In U.S. politics as well as Canadian "thumper" short for "Bible thumper" is a hostile term for conservative Christian while So-con at least in Canada, now means "social conservative" as opposed to "libertarian" which means conservative only on fiscal matters. The opposite of a Reaganite is a Rino (Republican in name only - perhaps a take off on the party symbol being an elephant). One is a Bush Republican or a McCain Republican - but not apparently a "Bushite" the corredct term appears to nbe "Bushie" - but oddly enough this diminutive is NOT derogatory (perhaps a case of reverse takeover, like "brown"? People still call themselves Thatcherites (even in Canada). "Winger" has become shorthand for a right winger in Canada - I don't know about the states. We do call Liberals "libs" - with no value judgement attached - but we don't call conservatives "cons." A "libber" is not a Liberal, but a women's liberationist" - and "libber" IS a derogatory term. I have heard the Democrats called the dems - but I don't think the Republicans get called the "Reps" - as with the noun "pink" - a flower - probably because the semantic territory is fully occupied. In British Columbia we currently have a rather laughable dilemma. Having a right wing provincial BC Liberal government, and a centre left Liberal Party of Canada federal government (to which the BC Liberal Party is not affiliated - the adjective "Liberal" has two totally different (some would argue virtually opposite) meanings, depending on the context. Someone here can literally say "I'm a Liberal - but of course I hate the Liberals." (Meaning the other ones). Americans visiting our province used to get even more confused when we had a right wing government called "Social Credit" and later a socialist government called the "New Democrats" - which in the US meant less liberal more centrist democrats! Is it just us - or are there quirky political labels elsewhere too? Alle die beste George ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Labels Tschortsch, > I have also heard that Prussians tend to pronounce high German more tensely > and with a higher pitch in general than do south Germans. Is this true? and if > so, is it limited to Prussia or is it a general north German feature? Vere on ers haff you hert zat?! Are you shua it isn't bääst on a Hollyvoot monocled stereotype or on ze affektet speetsch mote in Tscherman movies off ze Tventies unt Sörties? ("Prussian" = "Kaiserreich"?) Vateva you are talking about, I don't sink it exists in zis dää unt äätsche, if it eva existet in ze först plääs. > high German more tensely > and with a higher pitch Jawohl! Zat's vy it's kollt "High Tschörmen"! :) Greetinks! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 00:18:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:18:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: language varieties Hoi allemaal, Good one Gary! I really enjoy hearing the Germans say village and volleyball too. I like to give them sentences like this to say: There are very violent videos available in the village. The three thrifty Thespians thought that they were thinking. I enjoy hearing them try to say the "th" and the "v". Kevin Browne ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: Language Varieties Gary wrote: "To revenge myself for comments about English speakers' pronunciations of 'Rostock' and 'Bundestag', my personal favourites from German pronunciations of English have to be 'willitch' (village) and especially 'wally ball' (volley ball). These make me chuckle every time I hear them!" Dear Gary, Yeah right! Makes me cringe every time, too. Another one is /O:lbÖrt/, and /O:lfrIt/ for Albert and Alfred. Or /melbö:rn/ for Melbourne. Many realise the final vowel of Sidney and Harvey as a diphthong /ei/: /sidnei/, /ha:(r)vei/ => I hate it - and living in a German speaking country I`m often exposed to it. Wery vell, until next time, Dan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology So it's "Bash-the-Boche Day," is it? ;) Kevin: > I enjoy hearing them try to say the "th" and the "v". I see ... So you like to watch them suffer, huh? Ain't that just lovely?! Daniel: > /sidnei/, /ha:(r)vei/ => I hate it - and living in a German speaking > country I`m often exposed to it. You should be grateful for not being Harvey from Sydney. (But then again, ['sIdneI] can be correct for "Sydney" ...) (By the way, many Australians pronounce "Sydney" as "Sinny" ...) But seriously, folks ... (Yes, we always find something "scientific" in everything, don't we?) The phonological processing of foreign words and languages are an interesting topic, especially where languages are as closely related as "ours" are. So far we have been brushing on mistaken morpheme boundaries (e.g., _Bundeschtag_), coping with non-native phonemes (e.g., _th_, _w_ [w]) or non-native phonemic distinctions (e.g., /v/ vs /w/), and with orthographic misinterpretations (e.g., Sidney, Harvey -- and that's not a hard mistake to make given the mess that is called "English orthography"). I'm sure there are more where they come from. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 00:20:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:20:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.25 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: language survival Dear Lowlanders ! First let me quote a cut-out of sentences from recent mailings: .... Whilst looking for books in Germany on regional dialects, I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough - but then any books on the local dialect are usually to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious study of dialects I've found most of the books to be pretty useless....There are however a few humourous books on dialect out there which are also quite informative....So comedy dialects as a means of promoting a dialect - ok, but only if they're quite accurate....The kind of books I was talking about tend not to be serious, and they have the affect of making a joke out of the local dialect. As I went on to say, there are some excellent books out there about dialects - however, still too often classified as 'humourous'...."I just spent a few days in the Lüneburger Heide, north-east of Hannover (Hanover if you must), and found Plattdüütsch to be alive and well there." ... tell us more about what you saw (and heard). I´d like some good news to be able to share your optimism. You say "alive and well". According to what you saw, what percentage of 0 to 20 year olds (who will be the active midlifers in 30 years time) are able to speak the language? Whenever I go home (Nordheide) I conclude that this percentage is approaching zero (certainly a small fraction of one percent). Looking forward to better news...." and there are not tens of millions of speakers but at the very, very most ten million." Ron, I meant 50 years ago. There must have been more 10 mio.? Whatever the old and new figures, the decline is dazzling. ...But I overheard some middle-aged people talking in Platt in a pub, and there were a great many books to be had, and it also appeared a lot in writing on brochures, posters, etc. I don't know about children, of course, but I had the impression that, at least in the villages, most people over thirty would be able to switch without a problem. And their children should at least have a passive knowledge (one hopes)....If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt... I look on Low Saxon from the special point of view of the Eastern Friesland variant but I think it isn't much better in other regions. Low Saxon is still alive - of course - but the number of competent speakers decreases rapidly. Programmes have been started to promote LS in kindergardens and schools but these aren't very effective. I doubt that any child will become a speaker of LS because of these programmes. Wherever LS is used outside it's familiar context (in advertising for example) it is regarded to be a joke. There is low acceptance of this language in the younger generation. I don't give LS any chance to survive as long as it is not accepted in all respects as a serious second language besides German for use in literature and journalism as well as in official documents. About a week ago I announced my new web-project on traditional festivities. This is mainly an attempt to show the East Friesians that their language is able to express more than some humourous stories. I want to collect much material on the subject for a presentation that can be regarded as popular scientific. My hope is to spread this idea and by this rise the appreciation of our language. An other point is knowledge about the language. Most speakers don't want to learn about their language - and in fact they know very little (even that they are speaking a language of it's own). They believe its enough to practise - theoretical learning seems too academic to them. Such learning however, I believe, is basical to improve practice and to develop the language for expanded use. Kind regards Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 00:38:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:38:12 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Dear Lowlanders, Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word _makker_ and the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning 'friend', 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? (_Macker_ is also used in Missingsch, a sort of shibboleth and to many people's minds a low-class flag.) LS _Macker_ can also mean 'ringleader'. And then there is Scots _mak(e)_ for 'close friend', 'mate'? Any relation? Perhaps a permutation of _mate_? And then there is _makkar_ referring to the Scots poets of the 15th and 16th centuries, apparently derived from the verb _mak_ 'make', 'create'. The suffix _-er_ ought to derive an agent/actor from a verb, but *_mak-_? There is, however, the LS adjective _mack_ 'easy to handle', 'harmless', 'tame' (as of an animal), thus masculine _mack+er_. There is also _mackelig_ ~ _macklig_ ~ _makelk_ 'easy', 'cosy', 'slowly and relaxed', cf. Dutch _(ge)makelijk_ 'easily', German _gemächlich_ 'slowly and relaxed'. Any input would be appreciated. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 17:35:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:35:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Leslie Decker Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] but a conservative Democrat can be > called either a Tory Democrat (at least in some southern states - or - once > more with colour - a blue dog or blue dog Democrat!" > Alle die beste George > > - I don't know about other areas of the American south, but in Texas we always say 'yellow-dog Democrat,' meaning 'I'd rather vote for a yellow dog (or a 'yeller' dog in certain areas) than a Republican.' Yellow dogs have been slowly dying out since the 60s, when the Democrats aligned themselves with the civil-rights movement. Groetjes Leslie Decker ---------- From: "Ian James Parsley" Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] George, Thanks for that, fascinating! Of course, since Kim Campbell in the late 80s Canadian politics has gone from being fairly straightforward for the outsider (particularly one used to the UK system) to being an utterly incomprehensible minefield! In Great Britain the colours are seldom used, other than 'true blue' for (fairly right-wing) Conservative and the attributive adjective 'red' (as in 'Red Ken', for London Mayor Ken Livingstone who won as an independent but was beforehand on the left of the Labour Party). 'Tory' is shorthand for 'Conservative', and not necessarily derogatory. The 'Liberal Democrats' (formerly 'Social and Liberal Democrats') are often known as the 'Liberals' or, more commonly and probably more accurately, as 'LibDems' (so spelled). If someone is 'liberal' that is usually a sociological stance, if they are 'a liberal' that means almost certainly a supporter of the 'LibDems'. (The British LibDems are considered left-wing, for the British Columbians among you!) In Scotland, of course, you get 'the Nats' for the Scottish Nationalists, also occasionally in Wales for supporters of Plaid Cymru. In Northern Ireland... let's not go there just now! Of course, the colours themselves vary across Europe. In Germany the conservative CDU/CSU is usually marked in black, but one also sees light blue (for example on www.election.de), and a supporter may be 'schwarz' - but of course if he travels 'schwarz' that means using public transport without paying! In Austria this is certainly the place - certainly pre-Haider people were 'schwarz' (for the conservative OVP) or 'rot' (for the social-democrat SPO) almost as zealously as they are 'Protestant' or 'Catholic' in Northern Ireland (but thankfully without the arms!) In the German-speaking world you then get a whole series of coalitions - literally 'red-green' (Social-Democrat/Green), 'red-yellow' (Social-Democrat/Free-Democrat[right-wing Liberal]), 'black-yellow' (conservative-Free-Democrat) etc - even 'red-red' in the east (Social-Democr at/PDS[ex-communist]) Now to square this circle for Lowlanders, we may return to the general different uses of colours. For example, in English you have a 'black eye', but in Scots as in German you have a 'blue eye'. Scots these days even seems to distinguish in usage between terms using 'blae' and others with 'blue'. We may go on - what colour is a tennis ball (yellow or green)? What colour is the sea (blue, green or grey)? Regards, Ian James Parsley Co Down, N. Ireland. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 17:53:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:53:23 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] Hi... Well,... about how foreigners handle the pronouncing of names.... the BBC and CNN have hired a chimpanzee to figure out how to pronounce Dutch names in news items. (Or it's a computer...?) I have heard. So I can imagine what they are doing to other languages.... If they can't even handle simple Dutch.... Bye! Wim wkv at home.nl [Wom Verdoold] ---------- From: Gary Taylor Subject: Phonology Dear All Just a couple more - there's always the Americans' pronunciations of place names like 'Blenheim' as if it were a German word, instead of 'Blennam' as we'd say in England, and also 'Worcestershire' given it's full value instead of England English, 'Woostersheer'. But then again I always say Michigan with a 'ch' instead of a 'sh' which I'm sure makes a number of Americans smile, and every time I see 'Yosemite' I say it 'Yos-a-mite' before I realise it's 'Ya-se-ma-tee'! And why do Germans always spell my name with two r's?... :) Gary ---------- >From Daniel Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subj.: LL-L "Phonology" Re.: Bash-the-boche-day; No offence, but it`s best to get it out of the system once in a while and be totally unscientific about it. We´re all second, third, and fourth (or more) language learners, and we know what it means to acquire the pronunciation of a foreign language or dialect. And once we pat ourselves on the back an realised how great we are, we open our mouths, and first question we get is "Where are you from...?" Dan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Daniel: I'm not sure I understood what you meant above, but if you are referring to levity, I'm all for it (as long as it does not become our main focus), and I usually respond in kind. Gary: > And why do Germans always spell my name with two > r's?... :) Because there's only one "r". With only one "r" they are inclined to pronounce the vowel long. Folks, I caught myself phonologically overcompensating this morning. For people whose native or near-native languages consistently devoice final stops (e.g., German, Dutch, Polish and Russian) it is very difficult to learn *not* to devoice final voiced stops, and the next difficulty is to distinguish final voiceless phonemes from voiced ones. Once in a while, in English words I rarely use (especially when I'm tired or inattentive), I either devoice when it is not appropriate, or, more likely, I overcompensate by voicing voiceless final stops. Thus, this morning I said, "It's because she has no cloud" instead of "It's because she has no clout." Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 17:55:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:55:48 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.26 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: James Mader Subject: Eh My father-in-law, who is orginally from Zeeland, Netherlands, told me once that some Zeelanders, instead of ja, say Eh in the affirmative. This would make sense on the end of a sentence. Being that Afrikaans has such a strong link to Dutch (my wife calls it Boer dutch) maybe this is a link? James L. Mader, Seoul Korea Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 17:57:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:57:38 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.26 (04) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Dan Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subject: LL.L "language survival" Moin Holger, As ik mi so`n beten över Saterfreesch künnig maken wul, stülter ik över diin net-siid un dach mi, wo schöön dat is maal wat eersthaftig in`t Plat to lesen. Diin artikels över de algemeen tostand vun de spraak lees ik ook, un dach mi eerst wat dat drurig un pessimistisch vun di is, avers ik kun dat good verstaan, un du hest dat jaa ook bannig good röverbrocht. Un wiil dat Fiete mi al in de oren ligt, wat ik di endlich maal scriven schal, do ik dat nu. As ik dat vöör en paar weken al bi Leeglannen schreef, mut de spraak apenbaar eerst maal fast verswinnen eer dat sik de lüü daar algemeen över klaar warrn, wat daar en wichtig bestanddeel vun eer kultuur en beek rünnergaait. Ik glööv, wat in Oostfreesland de spraak angaait, Platdüütsch fast beter daar staait as in annere Platte rebeden, drurig noog, wat een immernoch de indruk het, dat sik de spraak nich verhalen daait. Ik höör avers, wat dat in Oostvreesland eerster daag en aktjoon geef, woneem de platsnakkers bi de aarbaid opföddert weren, över de "Platte Daag" Oostvreesch midenanner to praten, un dat ook mid de, wat gar ni Plat köönt, avers dat verstaan doot. Ook de Kundschap schull tweesprakig begröött warrn, un waneer se niks nich tegen hebt, dat Plat snakt warrt, schull een dat ook doon. Ik meen natöörlich nich, wat dat de spraak redden kan, avers dat is maal en anvang. Vundaag hebt wi ook de emstige schangs en "native" Plat an de neegste generatjoon widertogeven, un twaarsten mid en "aktjoon" "Grootöllern snakt Plat mid jemeer grootkinners". Villicht köönt se jaa mid eer grootkinners wedder good maken, wat se mid eer kinners nich maakt harrn, näämlich Plat snakken. As en olen keltoplile kan ik bloots berichten, wo dat in de Bretagne mid de Bretoonschsnakkers weer. De lüü de Bretoonsch köönt un so oold sünd as ik (knap 30) hebt de spraak nich vun eer öllern leert, sünnern vun jemeer Bretoonsch grootmodder, de midünner gaar keen Franzöösch snak. Mennigmaal hebt de grootöllern ook mid vliit Bretoonsch snakt, wiil dat de öllern gaar nich so wullen. Sörr 1950 bet 1960 warrt jaa de spraak gaar ni meer widergeven, wat natöörlich hen to`n sprakenkollaps in`t ganse Bretoonsche rebeet vöör. Hüütodaags gift privaatscholen de wedder op Bretoonsch ünnerrichten, avers de Franzöösche staat het daar wat tegen, un so is dat gaar ni so licht dat vun de native-speaker generatjoon op de jungen widertogeven. Dat widergeven vun de grootöllern na de grootkinners hen het also de sprakendood tonminst een generatjoon verleet. Uns Schottisch-Leegländsche vründen beklaagt jaa ook dat wedderbeleevde Scots minnhaftig is un bloots en översett Ingelsch. Ik harr de indruk du süüst dat in betrek op Platdüütsch un Hoochdüütsch ook so. Ik see dat nich so düüster. Ook waneer dat an anvang as en översetten klingt, warrt de lüü meer un meer apen vör dat orginaal, wat snakt warrt un schreven wöör, un so leert se dat ook wedder. Nu mag dat juun Noorddüütschen gaar ni so opvallen, avers wat de hoge ümgangsspraak in Noorddüütschland angaait, is dat vör en Süüddüütschen gans klaar, woveel Plat daar egentlich binnen is, also is översetten, mid en paar extras, gaar ni so verkeert, wat meent ji? Wedder en bispel ut dat keltische rebeet: Fiete weet jaa, wat daar mit Koornsch wat an`n hood hef. In Cornwall is de spraak jaa üm 1800 as gemeeinschaftsspraak utstorven (verenkelte lüü kunnen noch en paar brokken, bet in de fröjen jaren vun`t 20. jaarhunnert). 1904 begun de wedderbeleven vun de spraak. Ut de literatuur un vun uptekens, as ook vun dialektwöör in Koornsche Ingelsch, het een de spraak teemlich akraat rekonstrueert un wedderbeleft. Mid en paar loffpriisde utnamen, weer dat meeste, wat in de fröjen jaren screven wöör, en översett Ingelsch. Avers hüütodaags het dat Koornsche we`er qualität, nich jümmers, avers oft noog. Koornisch vun hüüt is veel dichter bi`t traditjonelle Koornsch, as Evrit an`t ole Hebräisch to`n bispel. Wat ik daar mid seggen wül is, nich opgeven, een kan siin spraaklige Arfschop wedderkrigen. Dan. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 18:24:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:24:49 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.26 (05) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Etymology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word > _makker_ and the > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning 'friend', > 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? (_Macker_ is also used in Missingsch, a sort of > shibboleth and to many people's minds a low-class flag.) LS _Macker_ can > also mean 'ringleader'. And then there is Scots _mak(e)_ for 'close > friend', 'mate'? Any relation? Perhaps a permutation of _mate_? > And then > there is _makkar_ referring to the Scots poets of the 15th and 16th > centuries, apparently derived from the verb _mak_ 'make', 'create'. "Makar" simply means "maker". However, in Scots the verb "mak" (or "make" in a few dialects) is used to refer to the act of creating an artistic work, so can take on the meaning of "to author", and therefore the noun "makar" corresponds to "author" in English. Its use with a capital as in "the Makars" signifies a group of poets who wrote rather grand works in Middle Scots with a distinctive diction aimed at educated patrons, but without capitals it can mean any sort of author, so that, for example, in Robert Louis Stevenson's poem "The Maker to Posterity", he's referring to himself as the author of the poem, and we see the application of the verb in James Lumbsden's play "Toorle" where one of the characters in talking about a poem, says, "Burns made it", with the meaning "Burns wrote/authored it". A more general word for the act of creation in Scots is "shup" (also "shap" and "shape"). Hence in Cameron's translation of Genesis we read, "I' the ingang God shuppit the hevin and the erd" for "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (07) [E] Lowlands-L heeft op zaterdag, 26 okt 2002 om 02:38 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word _makker_ > and the > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning > 'friend', > 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? (_Macker_ is also used in Missingsch, a sort > of > shibboleth and to many people's minds a low-class flag.) LS _Macker_ > can > also mean 'ringleader'. And then there is Scots _mak(e)_ for 'close > friend', 'mate'? Any relation? Perhaps a permutation of _mate_? And > then > there is _makkar_ referring to the Scots poets of the 15th and 16th > centuries, apparently derived from the verb _mak_ 'make', 'create'. > > The suffix _-er_ ought to derive an agent/actor from a verb, but > *_mak-_? > There is, however, the LS adjective _mack_ 'easy to handle', > 'harmless', > 'tame' (as of an animal), thus masculine _mack+er_. There is also > _mackelig_ ~ _macklig_ ~ _makelk_ 'easy', 'cosy', 'slowly and > relaxed', cf. > Dutch _(ge)makelijk_ 'easily', German _gemächlich_ 'slowly and > relaxed'. Dear Ron, My Flemish explenation for it is : "maken" has a lot of meanings. One of these is... V: We gaon da ne keê maok'n = doen passen (E: to make sure that it fits, to match) So "makker" could mean that these two people 'match' together or that they are equal to each other. "gemak'lik(V) "(D: gemakkelijk) = E: easily, without pain. We have a verb:"makkeren(V)" which means, to be good friends with. V: Ze makk'rn wel te goare = They are good friends. Another verb : "makken(V)" (makk'n)= to match, or to be tame. V: Ze makk'n lik hond'n en katt'n. E:They match together like dogs and cats. Groetjes, Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (07) [E] Ron wrote: "Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word _makker_ and the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning 'friend', 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? (_Macker_ is also used in Missingsch, a sort of shibboleth and to many people's minds a low-class flag.) LS _Macker_ can also mean 'ringleader'. And then there is Scots _mak(e)_ for 'close friend', 'mate'? Any relation? Perhaps a permutation of _mate_? And then there is _makkar_ referring to the Scots poets of the 15th and 16th centuries, apparently derived from the verb _mak_ 'make', 'create'. The suffix _-er_ ought to derive an agent/actor from a verb, but *_mak-_? There is, however, the LS adjective _mack_ 'easy to handle', 'harmless', 'tame' (as of an animal), thus masculine _mack+er_. There is also _mackelig_ ~ _macklig_ ~ _makelk_ 'easy', 'cosy', 'slowly and relaxed', cf. Dutch _(ge)makelijk_ 'easily', German _gemächlich_ 'slowly and relaxed'. Any input would be appreciated. Regards, Reinhard/Ron" Moin Ron, To "makker/Macker hef ik niks nich funnen, bloots "Macke" un dat kümt vun Jiddisch un Hebräisch. Ik denk avers nich wat dat midenanner wat to doon het. Also daar kan ik di ook ni widerhölpen. Schottisch "mak" gift dat as en veerb un as en nomen. As veerb het dat natöörlich de like wörtel as Ingl. "make", vun daar kümt ook "makar" or "makkar" (Collins English Dic. Scots variant of "maker"). Twaars süüt "mak" so ut as keem dat vun "mak" (Schot. Maken), avers ik denk mi wat dat Gälisch is un vun "mac" = söön kümt. De plural vun "mac" allerdings warrt jaa as en schimpwoord vöör de "Iren" or de Katoolschen slechthen bruukt. Collins segt twaars wat dat vun "Michael" kümt doch glööv ik dat ni so recht. Ik meen dat kümt vun Gälisch. Avers keen weet, villicht is dat jaa ook mine keltophili, nich? Alens gode, Dan ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (07) [E] Hi! About Makker. My dictionairy says: makker (1565), typisch hollands woord, waarschijnlijk met de verbreide er- uitgang (Vergelijk bakker en herder)uit een ouder woord zoals oud engels gemaecca, maat, reisgenoot. (nieuw engels match) oud saksisch gimako, oud hoog duits, gimahho. "maat" >From Etymologisch woordenboek. By J de Vries/ F de Tollenaere. (het Spectrum)(isbn 90 274 2947 2) So makker is matcher...lol. well it isn't. the meanings of words changed in the last 1200 years. Hope this was any help.. Bye, Wim. wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for your responses, folks! Sandy: > A more general word for the act of creation in Scots is > "shup" (also "shap" and "shape"). Hence in Cameron's > translation of Genesis we read, "I' the ingang God > shuppit the hevin and the erd" for "In the beginning > God created the heavens and the earth". Same thing in Lowlands Saxon (Low German): /maak-/ _maken_ ['mQ:kN=] vs. /Saap-/ _schapen_ ['SQ:pm=], also Dutch _maken_ vs. _scheppen_, Afrikaans _maak_ vs. _skep_, and German _machen_ vs. _schaffen_ and _schöpfen_ (> _Geschöpf_ 'creature'); English cognates: "make" and "shape" (and "scoop"?), Scots cognates: _mak_ and _shap(e)_ ~ _shup_ (and _scuip_ ~ _scob_?) respectively. Thus, LS Genesis 1 (past perfect): "An'n Anfang hett Gott den Heven (~ Himmel) un de Eerd' maakt ~ schapen." or (preterite): "An'n Anfang maak (~ möök) ~ schaap (~ schööp) Gott den Heven (~ Himmel) un de Eerd'." (In German, _schaffen_ also means 'to get (something) done', 'to do (successfully)', but then the preterite is regular _schaffte_ and past participial _geschafft_, vs. _schuf_ and _geschaffen_ for 'to create'.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 20:57:58 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:57:58 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (02) [E] One must remember that Dutch is extremely difficult for us Americans because we are not familiar with the British ou as in "out" and oe that does not sound exactly like book. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 21:06:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:06:06 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] At 10:35 AM 10/26/02 -0700, Ian Parsley wrote: Now to square this circle for Lowlanders, we may return to the general different uses of colours. For example, in English you have a 'black eye', but in Scots as in German you have a 'blue eye'. Scots these days even seems to distinguish in usage between terms using 'blae' and others with 'blue'. We may go on - what colour is a tennis ball (yellow or green)? What colour is the sea (blue, green or grey)? I never heard an expression using the phrase "blue streak" until I came to Canada. As in "talking up a blue streak" (talking on and on about something). Ed Alexander JAG REALTY INC. 80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1 Pager: 905-312-5204 Fax: 905-525-6671 www.jagrealty.com ED'S FUNDRAISER PAGE: http://www.deerhurst.com/fundraiser ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica Ed, Lowlanders, The few times I have heard people use the phrase "to talk up a blue streak" (yes, Canadians, I believe) I interpreted it as denoting something like "to talk up a storm," i.e., 'to talk a lot and in a very animated manner'. Apparently I "over-interpreted" it. Oops! But I seem to remember that my over-interpretation did fit within the contexts in which I heard the phrase used. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 21:53:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:53:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.26 (08) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology A "makker" is rather a "matchmaker" than a "whoremonger" (pun intended), that's how I would like to synthesize the following explanation *s*. First some English data : 1) from http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=Make MAKE (Page: 885) Make (?), n. [AS. maca, gemaca. See Match.] A companion; a mate; often, a husband or a wife. [Obs.] For in this world no woman is Worthy to be my make. Chaucer. 2) from The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology : MATCH1 A. mate, fellow OE.; person equal or corresponding XIII; B. matching of adversaries XIV; contest; matrimonial alliance XVI. OE. gemæcca :- Gmc. *Gamakjan-, rel. to *Gamakan- (OE. gemaca, dial. make match, mate; corr. to OS. gimaco, OHG. gimahho fellow, equal), sb. use of *Gamakaz (OE. gemæc, OHG. gimah well-matched, G. gemach easy, comfortable), f. *Ga- Y- + *mak- fitting, see MAKE. Hence match vb. join as a pair or one of a pair in marriage, combat, etc. XIV. Now some Flemish data : 1) from Algemeen Vlaamsch Idioticon : MAKKEN, vanwaar : makker, bet. omstr. Kortrijk : vriendmaken. Het is een andere uitspraak van maken, dat Kil. vert. door : transigere, pacisci, componere en conciliare. MAKKE m., iemand die mak is, d.i. een korte, dikke, stijve of trage jongen : toe, makke, kom wat gauwer. Hij is een eerse makke of luiaard (Brab. en elders). Het woord is verwant met maf (sic) en met gemak. 2) from Loquela : MAKKEN, makte, gemakt. = Overeen komen, mak zijn of worden tegenover malkaar.- Die twee en makken niet. Zij makken lijk honden en katten. Geh. Eecloo. Het w. makken is in 't Engelsch vertegenwoordigd door to match en verwant aan maken, maat, gemak, enz. 3) from Nederland Etymologisch Woordenboek : MAKKER znw. m. Het oudste voorbeeld is mackerscap in 1565 (Scheveningen): Kiliaen kent holl. macker, maar geeft als bet. op maggher 'koopman'. Dit zal wel gelijke te stellen zijn aan mangher, dat evenals mnd. manger, oe. mangere < mlat. *mangarius naast manganus, vgl. os. mangon, oe. mangian 'handel drijven' < mlat. mangonare. - Dit woord verklaart echter noch de vorm noch de betekenis van makker, dat men eerder zal moeten verbinden met os. gimako, ohd. gimahho, oe. gemaca 'maat, makker' (en gemæcca 'maat, genoot, echtgenoot'), waarvoor zie verder : gemak en maken. - > nhd. macker 'wie een ander gezelschap houdt' (sedert 1771, vgl. Kluge, Seemannsprache 563). So, a "makker" is somebody who "matches you". Whereas "ne mààt" (B), "een maat" (D), "a mate" (E) is originally not just somebody you mate with, but rather somebody you ate "meat" with...which on its turn was primarily done with a knife, a so called "mes" in Dutch or a "Messer" in German...which was actually a "meteseax" in Old English, where the second part denotes a "cutter", the word after which Sachsen, Sassen and Saksen have been named...the circle is round *s*... Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for your input, too, Luc! So I assume it is correct to assume the following: Germanic */mak(j)-/ *makjon ~ *makjan *'to match' > *gamakjon ~ *gamakjan *'matched' > *'fit', *'suitable' > Old Saxon _(ge)maca_ 'mate', 'companion' (>) Old English _gemæcca_ 'mate', 'companion' > Modern English "match" Scots _mak(e)_ 'mate', 'companion' Modern Dutch _makker_ 'matchmaker' > 'merchant' ~ 'mate' Modern Lowlands Saxon _mack_ 'fit (to handle)', 'tame' _Macker_ ~ _makker_ ('matchmaker' > 'merchant' ~) 'mate' Scots did not participate in k-palatalization (we find in English and Frisian), hence (OE _gemæcca_ >) ME "match" = MS _mak(e)_, (Greek _kurikon_ > Germanic *_kirika_ > OE _cir(i)ce_ >) ME "church", MS _kirk_ (WFries _tserke_). Luc: > So, a "makker" is somebody who "matches you". Whereas "ne mààt" (B), "een > maat" (D), "a mate" (E) is originally not just somebody you mate with, but > rather somebody you ate "meat" with...which on its turn was primarily done > with a knife, a so called "mes" in Dutch or a "Messer" in German...which > was actually a "meteseax" in Old English, where the second part denotes a > "cutter", the word after which Sachsen, Sassen and Saksen have been > named...the circle is round *s*... Indeed! Germanic *_mat-_ 'measure' > *_matiz_ ~ *_matam_ > Old Saxon _mat_ ~ _meti_ 'food' (Old German _maZi_ 'food', Old Norse _matr_ > Scand. _mat(ur)_) > Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Mett_ 'chopped pork_ (> German _Mett_ 'chopped pork_) > "short sword for cutting meat": Old English _meteseax_, Old German _meZZisahs_ ~ _meZZirahs_ (> _meZZer_ > MG _Messer_ 'knife'), Old Saxon _metiseahs_ (> MLS _Metz_ ~ _Mess_ 'knife'; cf. OS _sahs_, OE _seax_, ON _sax_ 'short sword' > "Saxon" (cf. Mod.Scand. _saks_ ~ _sax_ ~ _sakser_ (pl.) 'scissors' < Med.Saxon?, cf. Icelandic _skæri_ 'scissors', cf. Mod.Germ. _Schere_, Mod.English _shears_, cf. Dano-Norw. _skjære_ 'to cut', etc. I wonder if Medieval German _metze_ '(female) companion (of a male)' > 'whore' is in any way related to the above, i.e., to "match". Regards and thanks, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 21:56:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:56:38 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (07) [E] At 02:06 PM 10/26/02 -0700, Ron wrote: The few times I have heard people use the phrase "to talk up a blue streak" (yes, Canadians, I believe) I interpreted it as denoting something like "to talk up a storm," i.e., 'to talk a lot and in a very animated manner'. Apparently I "over-interpreted" it. Oops! But I seem to remember that my over-interpretation did fit within the contexts in which I heard the phrase used. I think "talk excitedly or quickly and at some length" would be a closer translation. "Me an my wife went over to the Big Smoke (Trana) and all the way there she talked a blue streak abo-ut the antique shopping her and Emilia did the day before." Ed Alexander JAG REALTY INC. 80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1 Pager: 905-312-5204 Fax: 905-525-6671 www.jagrealty.com ED'S FUNDRAISER PAGE: http://www.deerhurst.com/fundraiser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 22:57:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:57:05 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.26 (10) [E/Portuguese] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Dear Lowlanders, A kind Brazilian wrote to me (with regards to my site http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm). He informed me that Lowlands Saxon ("Plattdeutsch" or "Niederdeutsch") is spoken in his country as well, especially in Pomerode (http://www.pomerode.com.br/). Here is the most important part for us ("Culture"): "The German language is used in a daily basis by people, and this has been considered by the linguist Sílvio Edimundo Elia, who was in the city in 1989, as a typical bilingual case. The "Pomerano dialect" is still spoken in rural areas, it is a variety of Plattdeutsch or Niederdeutsch. The erudite German or Hochdeutsch is used in religious acts. However, the written predominant language is Portuguese, limiting German and Pomerano as oral language." The situation is the same everywhere: German is described as "erudite" in comparison with Lowlands Saxon ... I would like to include this information in my guide of international resources, but I need a more specific contact address. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Reinhard/Ron Caros Lowlanders, Um brasileiro amável escreveu-me (no que diz respeito a minha página no endereço http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm). Disse-me que nossa língua baixo-saxã é falada em seu país também, particularmente em Pomerode (http://www.pomerode.com.br/). É abaixo a peça mais importante para nós ("Cultura"): "Fala-se ainda nas áreas rurais o dialeto pomerano, que é uma variedade do Plattdeutsch ou Niederdeutsch. O alemão erudito ou Hochdeutsch é empregado nos atos religiosos. No entanto, a língua escrita predominante é o português, limitando-se o alemão e o pomerano à língua oral." A situação é a mesma em toda parte: A língua alemã é descrito como "erudito" em comparação com a língua baixo-saxã ... Eu gostaria de incluir esta informação em minha guia do recursos internacionais, mas eu necessito um endereço do contato mais específico. Toda a ajuda seria apreciada. Cumprimentos, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 23:07:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:07:21 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ruud Harmsen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (06) [E] 13:57 26-10-2002 -0700, Lowlands-L: Ben J. Bloomgren : >Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (02) [E] >One must remember that Dutch is extremely difficult for us Americans because >we are not familiar with the British ou as in "out" and oe that does not >sound exactly like book. Strange, I always thought that the vowel of "out" was one of the few that is practically the same in all varieties of English, across all oceans (Northern Ireland excepted), and that a British or American ou will also do fine as an imitation of what is spelt au or ou in Dutch. Am I wrong? If so, how? -- Ruud Harmsen Site updated 25 Oct 2002: http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 19:49:04 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:49:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.27 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (11) [E] At 04:07 PM 10/26/02 -0700, Ruud Harmsen wrote: >Strange, I always thought that the vowel of "out" was one of the few >that is practically the same in all varieties of English, across all >oceans (Northern Ireland excepted), and that a British or American >ou will also do fine as an imitation of what is spelt au or ou in >Dutch. Am I wrong? If so, how? In most North America accents, it is pronounced as if it were the High German pronunciation of "au" as in "aus". However, Canadian accent (except Newfoundland), pronounces it more the way it is spelled, namely "o-ut". Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (11) [E] Ruud and folks, Actually, in my experience, the "ou" of "out" has to be one of the most varied diphthongs in English, from the American version which uses a more closed and front "a" than the Dutch sound in "fout" through the Australian version which starts with an even higher front vowel, the standard British which (seems to me, though I'm not so sure) starts with a more mid vowel, and back to Canadian which really, to this American ear, sounds like it starts with something approaching /o/, but more front. No? Stan ---------- From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (11) [E] I was actually talking about the Dutch UI or UY. The OU and the AU are the same across the English world. Thanks for asking the question, Ruud. Ben ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (02) [E] On Saturday 26 October 2002 11:53, Gary wrote: > and also 'Worcestershire' given it's full > value instead of England English, 'Woostersheer'. Depends on the region. Massachussets has a Worcester which is pronouned Wooster, so by extension many people in the northeast would say 'Woostersheer'. People outside the region generate a few smiles as they try to handle Worcester, Leominster, and other imported place names. Between the English, Dutch, and native place names, you can always tell a Nebraskan on vacation. bob ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 19:51:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:51:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.27 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (07) [E] on 27/10/02 7:06, Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] wrote: > For example, in English you have a 'black eye', > but in Scots as in German you have a 'blue eye'. Scots these days even > seems As a native born Scot, raised and educated there, I never heard this description used. It was always 'black'anywhere I travelled or resided. Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 19:53:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:53:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] Hi again, Thanks for the follow up on my political labels rant. A couple of others I had forgotten: in Canada a New Democratic Party (socialist/social democrat) member or supporter may be referred to as an NDPer by friend and foe alike - but only the right wing activist will refer to one of them as an "N-dipper" - or more usual lately - simply as a "dipper." Our former right wing Social Credit supporter got shortened to "Socred" - but here there was an intriguing phonetic distinction. Two distinct pronunciations were heard: Soh-kred and Saw-kred. Soh-kred was a neutral term but Saw-kred seemed to be used almost exclusively by NDPers in describing their hated enemies. (One mayor of Seattle once told a Victoria audience "In Washington State we just don't have the kind of stick-in-the-eye politics you have here in B.C." The audience laughed - both because we knew he was right - and because it was so surprising for an American to make such an insightful comment about anything Canadian). In Canada we get far more US tv than Canadian and a lot of our political activists follow US politics and take sides - at least as a cheering section. Thus Canada may be the only country on earth where someone can say "I'm a Republican." (meaning I like the US party of that name) and also say "I'm a monarchist." (meaning I'm in favour of Canada retaining the institution of the monarchy) Since both are relatively conservative opinions there actually are quite a lot of people who would fit both categories. Of course we also have a surprising number of Scottish descendants who would say "I'm a Jacobite" meaning I support the Stuart claim to the throne. (advanced on the battlefield of Culloden in 1746.) The current monarchs, the House of Windsor are, of course, the twice renamed House of Hanover. Which leads to the obvious linguistic question - Jacobites supported King James against King George. James - Latin "Jacobus" from Hebrew Jakob yielding Jacobite - but how did Jakob become James in English (and Seumas in Gaelic) rather than say, "Jack?" or Jake or Jacob? Even French Jacques sounds closer to the original. Why "James" ? anyone? noble is who nobly does George M. Gibault (Plantagent loyalist) ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: labels Hi all! One last bit on labels. (I promise) An Ontario friend of mine notes that it is possible in that province to find a P.C. (Progressive Conservative) who is quite p.c. (politically correct). He assures me that such a person is also almost certain to own a p.c. (personal computer.) A socialist friend I was discussing labels with reminded me that many social democrats in Canada support the retention of the monarchy as well - and have been described - even in print - in an affectionate play on "Red Tory" as "tory reds." This is the only way you can call any kind of social democrat or socialist "red" in Canada without appearing to intend an insult. Liberal factions in Canada tend to be labeled in association with a leader or prominent political figure. Canadian Liberals are not so likely to say they are right left or centre (A few say "centrist Liberal") as they are to identify with a faction leader - currently Chretien (more left) Liberals vs. Martin (more centre or right wing) Liberals. Some might say "I'm a Chretien man" or "I'm for Martin." but while often labelled by the press as Chretienites or Maritinites - "ite doesn't seem to be popular self-description. Oddly enough, personal faction labeling can be abbreviated to the nth degree - as in "Are you Chretien or Martin?" with the leader's name becoming an adjective! Thus someone could say "I'm Martin" or "I'm Martin all the way." Now that Chretien is retiring and other candidates will seek to lead his faction, one can hear such amazing semantic locutions as "I'm Chretien - but I haven't decided yet whether to be Manley or Rock." There is no multiple personality disorder implied by this sentence, so long as one understands the current political context. Still, this must be as baffling to outsiders as the fact that in English we chop a tree down before chopping it up! One other retrieval from US politics - James Carville, while running "new democrat" Bill Clinton's campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination referred to the more leftward opposing faction as the "Liblabs" (short for Liberal&Labour - a polite way of saying "left wing" - considered an insult by most Americans). I don't know if this was his invention or a pre-existing label - but it suggests the labrador retreiver to me (commonly called a "lab") - perhaps continuing the yellow dog, blue dog tradition of canine labeling of US Democrats. Popular cultural phenomena can also be picked up in different places and used for political labeling without any direct association. Red Tory youth in Ontario are known as the "Killer Bees" - also, I understand, the name of liberal Democrats in the Texas legislature - their Tory Democrat opponents being successors to the other great factional label - now almost extinct - the so-called "Dixiecrats." Finally, no-one likes to be a "sheep" in politics - since this implies a mindless follower - yet the loyal supporters of any party seem to be happy to assert their partisanship by saying they are "dyed in the wool" whatevers! Proving perhaps that language is almost as funny as politics! Best wishes George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 21:35:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:35:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (04) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Orthography" Nouadays I aye uizes automatic transliteration tools tae prepare the texts on ScotsteXt for uploadin. This means that whan A come across spellins A dinna richt unnerstaun, A canna git past them wi a wee bit internal bletherie ony mair! As weel, the orthographic considerations for electronic texts can be a bit different in their ettle nor texts for fowk haein read at. In parteeclar: o bein technically (or historically) richt is like tae be mair important than the text leukin familiar (wi hou the wirds can be translatit intae mair familiar spellins automatic); o it's better if a spellin can staun as a unique signifier for a wird (sae's the transliteration saftware disna git fanklt ower the likes o ("wood") an ("mad"), for example, it wad be better tae wale for "wood" - if the spellin wis nott at the last, the transliterator could haunle it). Onywey, ae parteeclar area o spellin A'm no shuir aboot is auxiliaries, espaecially the conditionals written in English , an , an as weel, . The questions is: o A tak it that the best wey tae spell an is wi the saicondary vowel, ie an ? o Ar the ony kin o differ wirth preservin atween the forms an an an in traditional texts, or wad A be as weel tae settle on the tae kin o sibilant an lat the transliterator owerset tae the tither gin it's wantit? o What alternative spellins ar the for , that wad sinder it fae meanin "mairy"? The SND suggests - appearinly the /l/ is or wis soondit in some airts, but A div still want the electronic texts tae be in weel-kent Scots for whan a transliterator's no tae haun. A dout micht no be a guid representation o the uizual range o pronunciations ootthrou the Lawlands? Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Orthography Sandy, Fowk, Ay, A misdoot that A'm daein it agane: feelin mair maisterfu as A suid (shuid?). Ye can wyte the dictionars an Collin's braw buik an CDs o it! Sandy, is the spellin ye yuized in the postin abuin a preein o yer ain wey? Gin it is -- whittever it's wirth uz sayin is -- A can read it gey eithlie an can hear it pronoonced clairlie in ma heid whan A read it (parteeclar noo at A hae harkend tae Collin's CDs fur oors). There's mair conseestencie noo, and at's aye a guid an yuizfae thing, parteeclar fur the lerner at's stertin oot ootside Scotland. Still an on, yer spellin canna be cawed "radical," cause ye yuize tradeetional English weys wioot the tradeetional throuitherness and wioot the "apologetic apostrophees" Collin mints in his buik. A'm yet a wee bit waunert ... Whit wey div ye spell "I" what Collin spells "A" -- an abuin ye aince spellt it "A" an aw? An whit wey "ie", "y", "ee", "ei" an "ea"? Regairds, Reinhard/Ron (Scots-lernin geeniepig amang the fremmit) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 21:47:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:47:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.27 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.26 (08) [D/E] Ron wrote: > Modern Lowlands Saxon _mack_ 'fit (to handle)', 'tame' There's a Shetland word _makly_ with a similar meaning, though I'm surprised not to be able to find it in The Shetland Dictionary. CSD, though, cites _mak_ with this meaning. > >Scots did not participate in k-palatalization This is something which I've never properly understood. I've always understood that pairs such as Eng. _church_, _bridge_; Scots _kirk_, _brig_, were owing to the Scots forms being derived from Old Norse rather than Old English (so eg. David Murison in The Guid Scots Tongue, p. 48ff). Apparently there are some semantic distinctions in English based on this etymological difference - so the cognate _shirt_ from OE and _skirt_ from ON - but such differences are more typical of Scots, eg: Eng. _shelf_, Scots _skelf_. Now, does this mean that Scots did not undergo k- and g- palatalisation at all; or that it borrowed ON forms lacking palatalisation (which would seem to presuppose some palatalisation elsewhere) or that it did not undergo palatalisation under ON influence (which, it seems to me, could only be a theory.) Certainly there are words in modern Scots with apparent palatalisation, such as _watch_ (_match_, flame-stick, doesn't count because it's French) and _cheese_. Does anyone know which factors are involved here - is there partial palatalisation, delimited either lexically (eg: words with OE rather than ON origin) or according to some phonological rule; or are the words with palatalisation English loan words, as _which_ and _much_ surely are, the Scots forms being _whilk_ (now probably obsolete, and replaced in traditional braid Scots by (th)at) and _muckle_? Presumably there is some rule whereby we have English _watch_ and _wake_ with different meanings from the same origin. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 21:49:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:49:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: erek gass Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (03) [E] Political terminology is always a little tight, and not always understood as intended. As an American (and not at all enamoured of the Anjouvins as our friend is) who leans more to Cromwell and the last Stuarts (Mary and Anne) than those earlier characters, I'll note that I've heard (and used) the term "Cromwellist" to mean someone who likes the man and his actual policies as opposed to "Cromwellian" referring more to the democratic philosophy he embraced, but wasn't always able to achieve given the nature of some of us those allied to him. One thing I can't help being curious about is that the House of Hannover (which inherited the British throne as a result of the Act of Succession after the Glorious Revolution to assure that James and his Jacobites would be denied the throne) was, I thought, called that till the great War against Germany when they altered their name as a "patriotic" gesture. What was the other change (possibly dropping the second "n" in "Hannover"?)? The question about "James" versus "Jacob" is an interesting one, and calls to mind something here in York County PA a few years ago. One of our local newspapers did a write-up on St Jacob's Lutheran and reformed Church in Brodbecks (by the way, my grandfather had been the Reformed minister there for thirty years, so I had a particular interest in the article). Included in the article was the comment that the name "St. Jacob's" was odd in that "Protestans don't recognise a St. Jacob". Obviously, several of us wrote the paper advising them to take a look at any German Bible (or "Bivvel" as we say in Deitsch) and note that the "Epistle of James" is the "Epistle of Jakob" in that version. Erek Gass ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 21:52:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:52:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.27 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.26 (03) [E] > From: James Mader > Subject: Eh > > My father-in-law, who is orginally from Zeeland, Netherlands, told me > once > that some Zeelanders, instead of ja, say Eh in the affirmative. This > would > make sense on the end of a sentence. Being that Afrikaans has such a > strong > link to Dutch (my wife calls it Boer dutch) maybe this is a link? > > James L. Mader, Seoul Korea Hello, I told you already about the westhoek-Flemish and how they alwaeys use "enni" ("ehne" - meaning "eh neen" or "nietwaar")at the end of almost every sentense.The "eh" you speak of is also used in Flemish (The most near tongue of Zeelandic)It sounds just like "mm or "ehe"(meaning yes). And their is a big variety of other words to end a sentense. I think that has already been mentioned quiet a while ago (just have a look in the archives). Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 05:32:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:32:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.27 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Idiomatica Beste liëglanners, A 'black eye' is called "ön blaa kaj" in my version of Brabantish. If aliens ever hear the pronounciation of this word they will probably link it with "black eye" because it sounds almost the same...yet it ?probably? means "een blauwe kade" (D) *s*. The point is that I've never been able to explain this word "kaj" satisfactorily...It seems likely that "kaai", "kade" (D), "quay" (E) could have been an influence (in a sense that the bone structure under an eye forms sort of a fence), but at the same time the group of "kieuw", "kauwen" (D) ~ "to chew" (E) ~ "Kiefer" (G) ~ kiëvern (B, to eat slowly) might have played a role too. Especially because the usual pronounciation for "kaai" (D) is "kee" (< French "quaie"). It wouldn't be the first time however that Antwerp exports words that it heard from scandinavian (skol and fak), english or scottish seamen (blakaaj ???). Ron, the medieval word "Metze" is just a pet name for Mechtild and now I quote Matthias Lexer : "...als appelat. s.v.a. mädchen niedern standes, oft mit dem nebenbegriffe der leichtfertigkeit; hure." Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.27 (05) [E] Dear John, I believe you are right. Scots did palatalise. But palatalisation naturally only took place before palatal vowels in the following syllable. Northern Old Anglian, from which Scots is derived had infectional endings with palatal and velar vowels in one paradigm, so that palatalisation and retention of velars must have occured within such a paradigm of a verb or noun. When the unstressed vowel became schwa, forms with or without palatalisation were generalised. As to be expected these developments showed regional differences. Perheps non-palatalised forms in Scots were encouraged by a Norse cognate, from which, as you have stated, many non-palatalised forms also derive. In fact I believe Old Norse to be the origine of the overwhelming majority of non-palatalised forms. John wrote: "This is something which I've never properly understood. I've always understood that pairs such as Eng. _church_, _bridge_; Scots _kirk_, _brig_, were owing to the Scots forms being derived from Old Norse rather than Old English (so eg. David Murison in The Guid Scots Tongue, p. 48ff). Apparently there are some semantic distinctions in English based on this etymological difference - so the cognate _shirt_ from OE and _skirt_ from ON - but such differences are more typical of Scots, eg: Eng. _shelf_, Scots _skelf_. Now, does this mean that Scots did not undergo k- and g- palatalisation at all; or that it borrowed ON forms lacking palatalisation (which would seem to presuppose some palatalisation elsewhere) or that it did not undergo palatalisation under ON influence (which, it seems to me, could only be a theory.) Certainly there are words in modern Scots with apparent palatalisation, such as _watch_ (_match_, flame-stick, doesn't count because it's French) and _cheese_. Does anyone know which factors are involved here - is there partial palatalisation, delimited either lexically (eg: words with OE rather than ON origin) or according to some phonological rule; or are the words with palatalisation English loan words, as _which_ and _much_ surely are, the Scots forms being _whilk_ (now probably obsolete, and replaced in traditional braid Scots by (th)at) and _muckle_? Presumably there is some rule whereby we have English _watch_ and _wake_ with different meanings from the same origin. John M. Tait." ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 05:35:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:35:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.27 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Alfred Brothers Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (09) [E] >Ron wrote: > >The few times I have heard people use the phrase "to talk up a blue streak" >(yes, Canadians, I believe) I interpreted it as denoting something like "to >talk up a storm," i.e., 'to talk a lot and in a very animated manner'. >Apparently I "over-interpreted" it. Oops! But I seem to remember that my >over-interpretation did fit within the contexts in which I heard the phrase >used. > Ed Alexander responded: >I think "talk excitedly or quickly and at some length" would be a closer >translation. "Me an my wife went over to the Big Smoke (Trana) and all the >way there she talked a blue streak about the antique shopping her and >Emilia did the day before." > "Talking a blue streak" is quite common in the U.S., as far as I know. -- At least it is in the Northeast. It's very common in New England. In fact, in 1999 there was a movie called "Blue Streak", based on the expression, and "Blue Streak 2" is in the planning stage; so it must be known in Hollywood as well. True, I don't think I ever heard "talk UP a blue streak," but I notice that in your example the "up" is also missing. I find on the Internet that "cussing up a blue streak" is also not uncommon. Re the "black eye" vs. the "blue eye". I would speak of someone having a "_black_ eye", but I'd very likely also say "His eye was all _black and blue_." instead of "His eye was all black." Alfred Brothers ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 06:26:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:26:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (10) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Orthography" > From: R. F. Hahn mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com > Subject: Orthography > > Sandy, Fowk, > > Ay, A misdoot that A'm daein it agane: feelin mair maisterfu as A suid > (shuid?). Ye can wyte the dictionars an Collin's braw buik an CDs o it! Ron, "misdoot" is wrang here! "Doot" in Scots means the opposite o what it dis in English, sae "A doot" means "I suppose" an "A misdoot" means "I disbelieve" or "I mistrust". > A'm yet a wee bit waunert ... Whit wey div ye spell "I" what Collin spells > "A" -- an abuin ye aince spellt it "A" an aw? An whit wey "ie", > "y", "ee", > "ei" an "ea"? A startit the mail in English an syne efter typin twathree wirds decidit tae write it in Scots insteed - A maun a forgotten tae chainge the English "I" intae a Scots "A" in the first sentence! The'r some odds atween ma spellin an Colin's that A understaun like this: 1. Colin (A think) haes tried tae follae dictionars like the SND an CSD. The spellins in thame's aa tae crockanition, tho A'm shuir Colin's managed tae pit some order on the chaos for his beuk (an thare a example o ae differ - Colin writes lippenin tae the dictionars an certain historical uises, while A write tae better shaw the modern soondin o the wird). 2. Colin writes a afore wirds like - this aye surprises me cause A soonds this (/j/) in ma ain dialeck but A wadna thocht a Buchan man like Colin wad a soondit it! Even tho A say it A dinna masel write it wi hou the'r ither wirds in ma dialeck that haes this /j/. For example, A'd hae tae write as , as , as an siclike gin A war tae write an like Colin dis. Sae no writin this seems tae me tae gie a mair universal (/jInI'vE:rs=l/ -> !) kin o orthography. 3. In writin the likes o for ma , Colin's gaun wi his theory o vowel hermony. A'd caa this a guid idea gin vowel hermony wis widespreed in Scots, but it's no. It wad mak richt spellin faur ower hard for fowk disna ken Colin's parteeclar dialeck. 4. Colin's uise o , , , , micht no be the same as mines. As faur as A can lift the principles, A uizes diaphonemics for the /e:/, /i(:)/ soonds across dialecks, an again the ettle here's makkin the spellin as universal as A can. Hivin sayed aa this, baith ma spellins an Colin's is aa fanklt wi English orthographic 'principles', an sae ye can haurly expeck conseestency onywey! A ken fine nouadays hou tae heyst masel oot this historic boggie, but A'v got it on guid authority that naebody wad want tae read ma Scots if A did! Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Orthography Thenk ye for yer help an expoondin, Sandy! > > Ay, A misdoot that A'm daein it agane: feelin mair maisterfu as A suid > > (shuid?). Ye can wyte the dictionars an Collin's braw buik an CDs o it! > > Ron, "misdoot" is wrang here! "Doot" in Scots means the > opposite o what it dis in English, sae "A doot" means "I > suppose" an "A misdoot" means "I disbelieve" or "I mistrust". Och, A wis jist ettlin tae say sumhin lik "I'm afraid that ..." Hoo wuid ye say at (gin at au)? "A'm feart at ..."? "Diaphonemics across dialecks" soonds guid (geud?). Noo ye're truelins speikin ma langage! Bit A unerstaun at there's aye a mids i the sea atween at an whit five echt can accep. Whit's needit is a comparativ table o the (dia-)phonemes and the odds o spellin them. Weel, at's a haundlin for yer rife by-time. ;) Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:18:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:18:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.28 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.27 (07) [E] James Mader wrote: > > My father-in-law, who is orginally from Zeeland, Netherlands, told me > > once > > that some Zeelanders, instead of ja, say Eh in the affirmative. This > > would > > make sense on the end of a sentence. Being that Afrikaans has such a > > strong > > link to Dutch (my wife calls it Boer dutch) maybe this is a link? > > > > James L. Mader, Seoul Korea Luc Vanbrabant responded: > I told you already about the westhoek-Flemish and how they alwaeys use > "enni" ("ehne" - meaning "eh neen" or "nietwaar")at the end of almost > every sentense.The "eh" you speak of is also used in Flemish (The most > near tongue of Zeelandic)It sounds just like "mm or "ehe"(meaning > yes). And their is a big variety of other words to end a sentense. I > think that has already been mentioned quiet a while ago (just have a > look in the archives). In Zeelandic, _ee_ (pronounced as the _ay_ in 'stay') is used only to ask for confirmation. Never as an affirmitive in its own right. The same goes for West- Flemish (and probably most East-Flemish dialects). The frequency of the use of _ee_ varies; if someone is a bit uncertain about what he or she is telling, the _ee_'s are all over the place! And James, it is not just some Zeelanders that use _ee_, we all use it and some use it even when spea- king (or trying to speak) Dutch. A few examples: 1. Asking for confirmation: -Die kèrel eit toch een grôte zuupe, ee? -Jae, dat eit n zeker In English: - That man is very thirsty, isn't he? - Yes he is. Sometimes _ee_ is used well after the statement that you would like to have confirmed: Da gae me daerom 's anders doee! (pause) Ee? 2. Telling a story, using _ee_ to keep your audience's attention (could perhaps be translated with 'right'): "Dus ik loôpe dae deu de stad, ee, en aol ineêns, ee, staet da vintje van Puype vo me, ee. Ikke d'r op af, ee, ik zegge: 'A je noe nog 's wat over mien te zeien eit, ee, doet dat dan 's nie achter m'n rik, ee'. Ee?" English: "So I was walking around town, right, and all of a sudden, right, I see that guy Puype in front of me, right. So I step towards him, right, and I say: 'If you've got something to tell about me, right, don't do that behind my back, right?' Right? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:20:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:20:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.28 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.27 (09) [E] From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 9:35 PM Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.27 (09) [E] > Ed Alexander responded: > > >I think "talk excitedly or quickly and at some length" would be a closer > >translation. "Me an my wife went over to the Big Smoke (Trana) and all the > >way there she talked a blue streak about the antique shopping her and > >Emilia did the day before." > > > "Talking a blue streak" is quite common in the U.S., as far as I know. > -- At least it is in the Northeast. It's very common in New England. In > fact, in 1999 there was a movie called "Blue Streak", based on the > expression, and "Blue Streak 2" is in the planning stage; so it must be > known in Hollywood as well. True, I don't think I ever heard "talk UP a > blue streak," but I notice that in your example the "up" is also > missing. I find on the Internet that "cussing up a blue streak" is also > not uncommon. Dear Lowlanders, 'Talking a blue streak' is quite commonly heard and used in western Canada, probably also in the east. However, it would be unusual to hear 'talk UP a blue streak.' The connotation of 'talking a blue streak,' I understand to describe a profusion of speech or argument for or against a subject under discussion. Cheers! Reuben ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:22:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:22:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.28 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.19 (02) [E] Thomas Byro wrote: > I would like to add that in the lowland areas, Dutch names are extremely > frequent. I went to High School with many. No one though assumes though > that someone is a Jackson White merely because their name is Vreeland. That > distinction is reserved to the people who live in the mountains or who moved > from there.Making joking comments about the Jackson Whites was commonplace > in the area but I don't recall anyone with a Dutch surname doing so. I > wonder if the name and concept of Jackson Whites is not imposed by the > outsiders who have moved into the area who were not pleased with the obvious > mixed race status of the mountain people? In other words, that the Jackson > Whites were not a separate people but were part of the continuum of Dutch > decended people? I recently correpsonded with Dr. David Cohen, Senior Research Associate with the New Jersey Historical Commission and author of the book "The Ramapo Mountain People". He says that the Jersey Dutch dialect died out among the Jackson Whites somewhere in the 20th century (probably around 1950). Nevertheless, there are people who claim that in their homes, the older Jackson Whites still talk gibberish every few sentences. I assume that by gibberish they mean that some Jersey Dutch expressions and words are still in use. Even without asking him, mr. Cohen already sort of affirmed your assumption that the Jackson Whites were part of a continuum of Dutch decended people. He wrote to me: "I also have some additional thoughts on what I term the Afro-Dutch regional subculture of New York and New Jersey in a chapter titled "Afro- Dutch Folklore and Folklife," pp. 31-46 in a book of my essays titled Folk Legacies Revisited, published by Rutgers University Press in 1995". The term Afro-Dutch comes to mind again if one realizes that one of the varieties of Dutch spoken in NJ and NY was actually called Neger Duits (Negroe Dutch). It was a more or less creolized version of the geographically varying Dutch varieties in NJ and NY, namely Jersey Dutch, Mo- hawk Dutch, Albany Dutch and Schoharie Dutch. Jersey Dutch is the most wellknown of these varieties and there- fore the five varieties are often lumped together under that name. Dr. Cohen wrote me that this 'Neger Duits' was actually the variety spoken by the Jackson Whites: "I have material on the variant of Jersey Dutch spoken by the ancestors of the Rama- po Mountain People. It is based on an article written by a Columbia University linguist named John Dyneley Prince titled "The Jersey Dutch Dialect," which appeared in Dialect Notes 3 (1910): pp. 459-84. Prince's chief informant on "Neger Duits" was William De Freece of Ringwood, who was one of the Ramapo Mountain People". Given the fact that the Jackson Whites spoke the variety of Jersey Dutch that was spoken by black slaves, the obvious conclusion is that the Jackson Whites are primarily decen- dants of freed or escaped slaves, mixed with white outcasts, indians and perhaps a few more groups. In that way, they are indeed part of the "Dutch" culture, that they share with the Dutch decended valley-people. Even- though they live on the edge of that culture in every way. The theory or story that the Jackson Whites primarily derive from 200 prostitutes who only arrived in NY just before they moved into the mountains, doesn't really make sense anymore. Where would they have learned Neger Duits and why would these English and African prostitutes speak that language amongst themselves? It would be interesting to see what the gibberish that I mentioned above, actually consists of today. David Cohen said that the Jackson Whites at least still know a Dutch nursery rhyme, called "Trippe Trappe Troontjes". That rhyme is also still known among white Dutch decendants in NY and NJ and versions of it are known in the Netherlands as well as in South Africa. Here is one version: Trippe Trappe Troontjes De varkens in de boontjes De koetjes in de klaver De paarden in de haver De eendjes in de waterplas Zo groot mij kleine Joris Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:25:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:25:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (03) [E] > House of Hanover. > Which leads to the obvious linguistic question - Jacobites supported King > James against King George. James - Latin "Jacobus" from Hebrew Jakob > yielding Jacobite - but how did Jakob become James in English (and Seumas > in Gaelic) rather than say, "Jack?" or Jake or Jacob? Even French Jacques > sounds closer to the original. Why "James" ? anyone? Dear Lowlanders, I can't answer your question, but assume it was the French against the academics. What I can affirm is that in Spanish we have Jacobo, Jaime, Diego and Santiago. Most Spanish speakers are oblivious of the common origin. Of course Santiago is just short for San Diego. Jorge Potter ---------- From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (03) [E] > From: George M Gibault > Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] > > James - Latin "Jacobus" from Hebrew Jakob > yielding Jacobite - but how did Jakob become James in English (and Seumas > in Gaelic) rather than say, "Jack?" or Jake or Jacob? Even French Jacques > sounds closer to the original. Why "James" ? anyone? "Jakob" became "James" in English because of Old French "James", related to Provencal and Catalan "Jaume, Jacme," and Spanish "Jaime" (Spanish also has "Iago", which is the same name, just as English also has "Jacob" - thus "Santiago", which yields the nickname "Diego"). The "m" is an alteration of the "b" in Latin "Jacobus", seen also in Italian "Giacomo". In Slavic languages, the "b" became a "v" (Yakov). Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:27:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:27:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.28 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Leslie Decker Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.27 (01) [E] > Depends on the region. Massachussets has a Worcester which is pronouned > Wooster, so by extension many people in the northeast would say > 'Woostersheer'. People outside the region generate a few smiles as they try > to handle Worcester, Leominster, and other imported place names. Between the > English, Dutch, and native place names, you can always tell a Nebraskan on > vacation. > > bob We have the same sort of thing in Central Texas, which is slowing changing under the influence of the sheer number of people who have moved to the Austin area in the past 20 years (the population has tripled). Many of the Germans who settled in the region spoke a dialect which used front unrounded vowels even when it was spelled with an umlaut. For example,. there's a street in Austin called Koenig Lane, which most native-born Austinites will call [kei nig], and most newcomers will pronounce [ko: nig]. The old airport in Austin, Robert Mueller, is pronounced [mI lr], but newcomers tend to say [mju lr]. I hear the second pronunciation more and more on the radio and television, so I think it might win out. There are of course other local pronunciations of place names that I can't justify as much, such as the Spanish names and a few street names with strange stress, but you'll still be an outsider to some if you pronounce them differently :-) Leslie Decker ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: phonology Hi Ron, No, no, no. I didn't mean it like that! I'm not a sadist. It's just good clean fun when I get a group of American students and German students together and have them try to pronounce the foreign tongue. My American students have difficulty remembering the difference between the "ie" and "ei" dipthongs. I once heard a student mispronounce "schiessen." You can imagine what she said. Quite often it brings everyone onto a level-playing field. The German students come here with a good command of the English language and well, as you can imagine, the American students don't do as well with the German. The difference being of course, that the German students have had 6 years of English and my students have had 1 or 2 years of German. Some students representing their respective countries sometimes get a little "high-minded" and I certainly don't mind bringing them back to reality at that point. I also agree the "ui" dipthong in Dutch is a bit difficult at first. Funny though, many Germans have asked me if I was Dutch. I guess I have an "accent!" (ha ha) (I probably should have let this one go, but I couldn't resist.) Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:32:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:32:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.28 (06) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (04) [S] Sandy Fleming wrate: > o it's better if a spellin can staun as a unique > signifier for a wird (sae's the transliteration > saftware disna git fanklt ower the likes o > ("wood") an ("mad"), for example, it wad be > better tae wale for "wood" - if the > spellin wis nott at the last, the transliterator > could haunle it). A uise (wood), (mad) an (would) O course dependin on dialect or stress etc. thir coud aw be spelt . Thaim that's thirlt tae writin Scots as different fae English as possible e'en gin it isna phonologically soond whiles uises bi analogy wi [gId]. > Onywey, ae parteeclar area o spellin A'm no shuir aboot is > auxiliaries, espaecially the conditionals written in English > , an , an as weel, . > > The questions is: > > o A tak it that the best wey tae spell an > is wi the saicondary vowel, ie an > ? A dinna gree here acause the unnerlyin phoneme isna whit a bodie for ordinar sees as bein ahint (In sae faur as ye gree on the preenciple o unnerlyin phonemes) Baith thae wirds haes stresst an unstresst forms [kud, kId, kVd] an NE [kwId], [Sud, SId, SVd] an mair aulder [sud, sId, s at d] Shuirly wad predeect [Sid or sid] in NE on in some airts e'en [Sed or sed]. In writin (ye can dae whit ye want in dialogue) A juist uise the stresst forms an wither or no drappin the is a guid idea or no is debatable. The aulder or is aiblins best uised syne that's whit's for ordinar in dictionars. > o Ar the ony kin o differ wirth preservin atween the > forms an an an in > traditional texts, or wad A be as weel tae settle > on the tae kin o sibilant an lat the transliterator > owerset tae the tither gin it's wantit? is the aulder form an the Englifee'd ane. Aiblins best haud wi whit the author wrate unless they come up wi anither spellin for thir. > o What alternative spellins ar the for , that > wad sinder it fae meanin "mairy"? The SND > suggests - appearinly the /l/ is or wis > soondit in some airts, but A div still want the > electronic texts tae be in weel-kent Scots for whan > a transliterator's no tae haun. A dout micht > no be a guid representation o the uizual range o > pronunciations ootthrou the Lawlands? A jalouse that is gey an auld fae afore the wis vocalised cf. baw (ball) couter (culter) etc. A dinna ken o onie modren uiss o [wald]. Modren [wad, wId, wVd] giein an an o coorse the phonologically unsoond . A haud wi it bein the tradeetional leeterar furm, it sinders fae (wood) an (mad) an aw. That lea's us wi meanin "mairie". A decidit tae thole thae twa homophones (would, wed). If she wad he wid gang wid in the wid. If she wad he wud gang wud in the wud. If she wad he wuid gang wuid in the wuid. If she wad he wad gang wud in the wid. (If she married he would go mad in the wood) A prefer the last ane. Monie ither combinations is o coorse possible. Andy Eagle ---------- From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (10) [S] Sandy Fleming wrate > > Fae: R. F. Hahn > > Sandy, Fowk, > The'r some odds atween ma spellin an Colin's that A understaun > like this: > > 1. Colin (A think) haes tried tae follae dictionars like the > SND an CSD. The spellins in thame's aa tae crockanition, tho > A'm shuir Colin's managed tae pit some order on the chaos for > his beuk (an thare a example o ae differ - Colin writes > lippenin tae the dictionars an certain historical uises, while > A write tae better shaw the modern soondin o the wird). A uise an aw for the selsame raison. Tho isna necessar wrang. Its ane o the ootcomes o the modren variants o historical . It stairtit oot as /o:/ in Anglo-Saxon an becam /2/ in aulder Scots. An gin A'v liftit it richt, wi lang an short variants reflectit in the aulder Scots spellins uisin an the bein a merker o lenth cf. aulder , , an aw. Afore /k/ an /x/ it becam /(j)u/ or /(j)V/ dependin or dialect an whiles parteeclar wirds. Colin mentions thon in his beuk as pairt o his expoondin o the 'rule'. > 2. Colin writes a afore wirds like - this aye > surprises me cause A soonds this (/j/) in ma ain dialeck > but A wadna thocht a Buchan man like Colin wad a soondit it! > Even tho A say it A dinna masel write it wi hou the'r ither > wirds in ma dialeck that haes this /j/. For example, A'd hae > tae write as , as , as > an siclike gin A war tae write an like Colin > dis. Sae no writin this seems tae me tae gie a mair > universal (/jInI'vE:rs=l/ -> !) kin o orthography. A gang alang wi Sandy here. > 3. In writin the likes o for ma , Colin's gaun > wi his theory o vowel hermony. A'd caa this a guid idea gin > vowel hermony wis widespreed in Scots, but it's no. It wad mak > richt spellin faur ower hard for fowk disna ken Colin's parteeclar > dialeck. A juist deal wi thaim as 'morphemes' tho some o thaim isna richt morphemes but for practical raison a deal wi thaim as siclike. Thair pronunciation depends on sindrie factors. A tak it native speakers wad pronounce thaim richt. Eg. The negative <-na> that some fowk spells <-nae> tho is the historical leeterar furm. Diminutive Adjective and adverbial <(l)ie> or <(l)y> Whither ye uise or is a maiter o personal opeenion. Ane's as guid as the tither tho fameeliarity micht suggest uisin . The final in wirds lik , an etc. coud juist as weel be written , an . The suffix <-fu> (full) e.g. awfu = awe + fu an etymological spellin. Monie fowk gaes for phonetic spellins eg. awfae, awfa, awfie, offy etc. > 4. Colin's uise o , , , , micht no be the > same as mines. As faur as A can lift the principles, A uizes > diaphonemics for the /e:/, /i(:)/ soonds across dialecks, an > again the ettle here's makkin the spellin as universal as A > can. A uise an for wirds that haes aither /e/ or /i/ dependin o dialect an whiles wirds. for ordinar cognates wi the likes o 'head', dead' an 'deaf' etc. an for the lave eg. beat an meat. for wirds that haes /i/ in aw dialects e.g. airtifeecial, cheese, ceevil, weel an wheen etc. > Hivin sayed aa this, baith ma spellins an Colin's is aa fanklt > wi English orthographic 'principles', an sae ye can haurly expeck > conseestency onywey! A ken fine nouadays hou tae heyst masel oot > this historic boggie, but A'v got it on guid authority that naebody > wad want tae read ma Scots if A did! That's a kinch ye hae tae deal wi gin ye're efter fowk readin whit ye write. Gaun ower far fae the weel-kent English preenciples micht mak it incomprehensible tae thaim that's no acquent wi whit ye're daein. A ettle tae uise spellins that can be fund in the CSD. Tho no aye the heid wird. The spellins that fits the 'polyphonemic theory' is maist aw thare. R. F. Hahn wrate: > "Diaphonemics across dialecks" soonds guid (geud?). Noo ye're truelins > speikin ma langage! Bit A unerstaun at there's aye a mids i the sea atween > at an whit five echt can accep. > > Whit's needit is a comparativ table o the (dia-)phonemes and the odds o > spellin them. Weel, at's a haundlin for yer rife by-time. ;) Thare's ane at http://www.scots-online.org/airticles/phonology.pdf Andy Eagle ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 19:03:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:03:00 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Lowlanders, Apparently, the origin of English "black" is unknown, but I would like us to take a crack at shedding some light on it anyway. As most of you know, other Germanic languages have _swart_, _swatt_, _svartur_, _svart_, _Schwarz_, _shvarts_, etc. (< Germanic *swart-az_), for the color, which are related to obsolete English _swart- and _swarty_ 'of dark hue', and to _swarthy_ 'dark-skinned'. In Scots we have the cognate _blaik_ 'shoe-polish', which, as Colin Wilson writes in his Scots textbook, can be of any color (e.g., brown: _broon blaik_). In many Lowlands Saxon (Low Saxon) dialects, _Black_ means 'ink', which, again, does not have to be of black color (though originally it probably was, being made from some sort of soot). Danish has _blæk_, Dano-Norwegian (Bokmål) _blekk_, Swedish _bläck_ and Icelandic _blek_ in the same sense, also Old and Middle German _blah_. (Cf. WFries. _bleek_, Dutch _bleek_, LS _bleek_ [blEIk], German _bleich_, D. _bleg_, D-N. _blek_, S. _blek_, Icel. _bleikur_ 'faded', 'pale', 'colorless', cf. English _bleak_, _bleach_). Any input would be appreciated. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 23:58:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:58:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Michael Arnold Subject: Origin of "Familie" This is my first post! Anyways... I was in German class the other day when we started a new "Thema" intitled Familie. I asked the instructor why we didn't pronounce Familie the way it was spelt but rather like Familju. He did not know. I know this doesn't really relate to any of the lowlands languages, but I was hoping someone would know. -Michael Arnold ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] Hi! There is also "blak" as in water that is totally calm, no wind, for sailing. in my dialekt...salland netherlands. Wim. wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Ruud Harmsen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] 11:03 28-10-2002 -0800, Lowlands-L: >From: R. F. Hahn >Apparently, the origin of English "black" is unknown, but I would like us to >take a crack at shedding some light on it anyway. Could Dutch "blakeren" be connected? It means "make black, as a result of soot, when flames touch a surface". The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal) says about it (I quote only part of the entry): === BLAKEREN, bedr. en onz. zw. ww. Een frequentatieve vorm van Blaken. 1) Branden, blaken, gloeien. a) In 't algemeen. || 't Blickren van 't geweer, en 't blaeckren van het vier, HOOFT, Ged. 1, 90 . Wy saghen van 't Gheberght het blaack'ren in de Dallen (t. w. in den oorlog), BREDERO 1, 46 . Een lichte vlamme, die in 't stroo blaeckert, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . De hei zelve is grauw-zwart, en schijnt te blakeren, SEGERS in Ned. Dicht- en Kunsth. 1887, 336 . b) Van de zon. || Als de zonne meest blakert en steeckt, is de reghen veerdighst, om neer te storten, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . Ick laet het blaeckeren, en regenen, de douwen, WESTERBAEN, Ged. 1, 184 . === About "blaken" it says: === BLAKEN, onz. en bedr. zw. ww. Mnl. blaken (VERDAM 1, 1284), nd. blaken (D. Wtb. 2, 62); daarnaast mnl. blaexeme (VERDAM 1, 1283), ohd. blecchan (zie BLEKKEN); verder verwant met lat. flagrare en gr. flóx, flégw. Een stam die ook in beteekenis eenigzins op dien van blaken gelijkt, vindt men in woorden als bleek, blijken, blikken. Reeds in de 17de eeuw behoorde het woord tot de dichterlijke of althans meer gezochte taal. A) Onz. 1) In vuur en vlammen staan, branden, gloeien. || De ziele daeromme blaken moet In d'helsche gloet, V. D. MEULEN, Ketiuigh. 77 . In teeuwich blaken, 120 . Doen lietmen Perillus daer inne blaken (t. w. in den stier van Phalaris), MOERMAN, Clein Werelt 28 b . De kaerssen op 't autaer Sijn sommigen gebluscht, en sommigen die blaecken, VONDEL 3, 394 . 't Flikkrend wachtvuur, dat men voor een tent zag blaken, TER HAAR, Ged. 1, 226 . De blakende kolk (t. w. eene stad die in brand staat), CONCIENCE 1, 319 b . - Figuurlijk van het "oorlogsvuur" en derg. || Alzoo de oproer vast bet en bet blaakte, HOOFT, N. H. 872 . Het blaken van dien burgerkrijg, STIJL, Opk. 353 . Toch blijft zij (t. w. de vlam van den opstand) blaken, VUYLSTEKE, Ged. 2, 88 . 2) Eene gloeiende hitte van zich geven, uitstralen. || Wanneer de son ... Van boven blaeckt En steeckt, VONDEL 2, 733 . Den gloed van 't blakend zonnevuur, DE MARRE, Bat. 104 (zie ook 173 ). De blakende hette, TEN KATE, Job 149 . - Ook van het "koortsvuur". || Als ... door heete koorts het lichaam brand end blaackt, HOFFERUS 382 . Ziekten, wier verterend blaken ons de jeugd te vroeg verslijt, D. J. V. LENNEP 233 . 3) Een schitterend licht uitstralen, glanzen, fonkelen, schitteren. === -- Ruud Harmsen Site updated 25 Oct 2002: http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for your interesting responses (above), folks. Colin, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has _blank_ as one word for "white" (besides _witt_), frequently in the sense of "glaringly white," and also meaning "shiny" (e.g., metal, or "teary" or "excited" in the context of eyes). _Blank_ is also found in place names (e.g., Blankenese "white spit (of land)," now a part of Hamburg). Afrikaans also uses _blank_ for "white," as many of you may remember from signs seen in photographs and footage from the apartheid era. But how do you explain */blak/ vs. */blank/, i.e., the loss of the nasal? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:02:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:02:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] Message-ID: Please disregard the preceding incomplete version. It escaped ... RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Michael Arnold Subject: Origin of "Familie" This is my first post! Anyways... I was in German class the other day when we started a new "Thema" intitled Familie. I asked the instructor why we didn't pronounce Familie the way it was spelt but rather like Familju. He did not know. I know this doesn't really relate to any of the lowlands languages, but I was hoping someone would know. -Michael Arnold ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] Hi! There is also "blak" as in water that is totally calm, no wind, for sailing. in my dialekt...salland netherlands. Wim. wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Ruud Harmsen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] 11:03 28-10-2002 -0800, Lowlands-L: >From: R. F. Hahn >Apparently, the origin of English "black" is unknown, but I would like us to >take a crack at shedding some light on it anyway. Could Dutch "blakeren" be connected? It means "make black, as a result of soot, when flames touch a surface". The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal) says about it (I quote only part of the entry): === BLAKEREN, bedr. en onz. zw. ww. Een frequentatieve vorm van Blaken. 1) Branden, blaken, gloeien. a) In 't algemeen. || 't Blickren van 't geweer, en 't blaeckren van het vier, HOOFT, Ged. 1, 90 . Wy saghen van 't Gheberght het blaack'ren in de Dallen (t. w. in den oorlog), BREDERO 1, 46 . Een lichte vlamme, die in 't stroo blaeckert, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . De hei zelve is grauw-zwart, en schijnt te blakeren, SEGERS in Ned. Dicht- en Kunsth. 1887, 336 . b) Van de zon. || Als de zonne meest blakert en steeckt, is de reghen veerdighst, om neer te storten, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . Ick laet het blaeckeren, en regenen, de douwen, WESTERBAEN, Ged. 1, 184 . === About "blaken" it says: === BLAKEN, onz. en bedr. zw. ww. Mnl. blaken (VERDAM 1, 1284), nd. blaken (D. Wtb. 2, 62); daarnaast mnl. blaexeme (VERDAM 1, 1283), ohd. blecchan (zie BLEKKEN); verder verwant met lat. flagrare en gr. flóx, flégw. Een stam die ook in beteekenis eenigzins op dien van blaken gelijkt, vindt men in woorden als bleek, blijken, blikken. Reeds in de 17de eeuw behoorde het woord tot de dichterlijke of althans meer gezochte taal. A) Onz. 1) In vuur en vlammen staan, branden, gloeien. || De ziele daeromme blaken moet In d'helsche gloet, V. D. MEULEN, Ketiuigh. 77 . In teeuwich blaken, 120 . Doen lietmen Perillus daer inne blaken (t. w. in den stier van Phalaris), MOERMAN, Clein Werelt 28 b . De kaerssen op 't autaer Sijn sommigen gebluscht, en sommigen die blaecken, VONDEL 3, 394 . 't Flikkrend wachtvuur, dat men voor een tent zag blaken, TER HAAR, Ged. 1, 226 . De blakende kolk (t. w. eene stad die in brand staat), CONCIENCE 1, 319 b . - Figuurlijk van het "oorlogsvuur" en derg. || Alzoo de oproer vast bet en bet blaakte, HOOFT, N. H. 872 . Het blaken van dien burgerkrijg, STIJL, Opk. 353 . Toch blijft zij (t. w. de vlam van den opstand) blaken, VUYLSTEKE, Ged. 2, 88 . 2) Eene gloeiende hitte van zich geven, uitstralen. || Wanneer de son ... Van boven blaeckt En steeckt, VONDEL 2, 733 . Den gloed van 't blakend zonnevuur, DE MARRE, Bat. 104 (zie ook 173 ). De blakende hette, TEN KATE, Job 149 . - Ook van het "koortsvuur". || Als ... door heete koorts het lichaam brand end blaackt, HOFFERUS 382 . Ziekten, wier verterend blaken ons de jeugd te vroeg verslijt, D. J. V. LENNEP 233 . 3) Een schitterend licht uitstralen, glanzen, fonkelen, schitteren. === -- Ruud Harmsen Site updated 25 Oct 2002: http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm ---------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] At 19:03 28/10/02, R. F. Hahn wrote: >In many Lowlands Saxon (Low Saxon) dialects, _Black_ means 'ink', which, >again, does not have to be of black color (though originally it probably >was, being made from some sort of soot). Danish has _blæk_, Dano-Norwegian >(Bokmål) _blekk_, Swedish _bläck_ and Icelandic _blek_ in the same sense, >also Old and Middle German _blah_. (Cf. WFries. _bleek_, Dutch _bleek_, LS >_bleek_ [blEIk], German _bleich_, D. _bleg_, D-N. _blek_, S. _blek_, Icel. >_bleikur_ 'faded', 'pale', 'colorless', cf. English _bleak_, _bleach_). Not to mention English/Scots "blank", and French "blanc(he)" with numerous cognates in the Romance languages. So that's the origin of "black" - it really means "white"! Interestingly, on sailing out of Helsinki's south harbour, the first island that one passes is known in Finnish as _Valkosaari_ ("white island") and in Swedish as _Blekholmen_. Goodwill to all, Colin Wilson. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for your interesting responses (above), folks. Colin, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has _blank_ as one word for "white" (besides _witt_), frequently in the sense of "glaringly white," and also meaning "shiny" (e.g., metal, or "teary" or "excited" in the context of eyes). _Blank_ is also found in place names (e.g., Blankenese "white spit (of land)," now a part of Hamburg). Afrikaans also uses _blank_ for "white," as many of you may remember from signs seen in photographs and footage from the apartheid era. But how do you explain */blak/ vs. */blank/, i.e., the loss of the nasal? Michael, welcome! I understand that German got _Familie_ from Latin _familia_ rather than from French _familie_, hence the final schwa vowel developed from _a_. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:03:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:03:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Labels Hi All George wrote An Ontario friend of mine notes that it is possible in that province to find a P.C. (Progressive Conservative) who is quite p.c. (politically correct). He assures me that such a person is also almost certain to own a p.c. (personal computer.) Is it also possible for this person to be a retired PC (Police Constable) from England? :) Gary ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:06:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:06:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.28 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Orthography" > From: R. F. Hahn mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com > Subject: Orthography > Och, A wis jist ettlin tae say sumhin lik "I'm afraid that ..." Hoo wuid ye > say at (gin at au)? "A'm feart at ..."? Ye wadna say that in Scots, as faur's A ken. A kipple o weys o startin a sentence: "A dout..." /V du?/ "I suppose/reckon/guess..." "A daur say..." /V da:r se:/ or /dQ:r/ "I dare say..." Thir can be uized as hale phrases or sentences but ye hae tae watch the stress pattern with "daur": "Ay, A dout." /a:i V du?/ "I guess." "Ay A daur say." /a:(j)V 'da:rsI/ "Yes, of course." "Ay, A daur say." /a:i V 'da:r se:/ "Yes, I dare say." an the negative forms: "A dout no." /V du? no:/ "I guess not." "A daur say no." /V 'da:rsI no:/ "Of course not." > "Diaphonemics across dialecks" soonds guid (geud?). Noo ye're truelins > speikin ma langage! Bit A unerstaun at there's aye a mids i the sea atween > at an whit five echt can accep. It's "guid". Ye juist gits -> afore /x/ or /k/. Like Andy explained, the pronunciations depends on dialeck. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:30:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:30:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.28 (11) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (10) [S] At 06:26 28/10/02, Sandy Fleming wrote: >1. Colin (A think) haes tried tae follae dictionars like the >SND an CSD. The spellins in thame's aa tae crockanition, tho >A'm shuir Colin's managed tae pit some order on the chaos for >his beuk (an thare a example o ae differ - Colin writes >lippenin tae the dictionars an certain historical uises, while >A write tae better shaw the modern soondin o the wird). Sandy's richt on aw coonts there. Hou muckle "order" A'v pitten on the maitter, A dinna ken, bit it's likelie nae muckle. A'll mebbe jist say agane whit A'v tellt fowk at the beginnin o the buik, that the main ettle ahint the written Scots in it is tae be a wey o pittin ower the spoken material, nae for it tae be (y)uised as a foond for the reader's ain written Scots. >2. Colin writes a afore wirds like - this aye >surprises me cause A soonds this (/j/) in ma ain dialeck >but A wadna thocht a Buchan man like Colin wad a soondit it! Gin A wis fae Buchan A'd suin agree win Sandy here - still, A'm fae Deeside, aboot thertie mile tae the sooth, an even ower that distance there's differs atween the wey some wirds is pronoonce't. Maist times A'd pit the "y" soond in - A michtna, gin A wis wi haein a lang speik wi somebodie fae further north an hearin the wirds wi'oot it, an drappin the "y" micht "rub aff" on me for a whilie. For aw that, it's true that A spellt the wirds wi a "y" jist cause thon's whit the CESD gies, an A tried tae bide wi hit as faur as A cud dae. Truth be tellt, A think they luik better wi'oot it. In the bygaun, A'm richt interestit tae see the Luath Scots Language Learner comin intae the cantations here, an A'm gled o the kind things that's been said aboot it. Guidwull tae aw, Colin Wilson. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Orthography Colin: > In the bygaun, A'm richt interestit tae see the Luath Scots > Language Learner comin intae the cantations here, an A'm gled o > the kind things that's been said aboot it.* Ay, Colin, A dout (lernin fae Sandy!) at's jist the stert o it. Hoo dae ye say "You created a monster" in Scots? (Weel, it's a wee onbeastie yet; still an on it's awfie fashious auready, is ye can see.) Regairds, Reinhard/Ron * Wilson, L. Colin (2002): The Luath Scots Language Learner, ISBN 0 946487 91 X, with CDs (ISBN 1 84282 026 5 CD RRP); Edinburgh (Scotland): Luath Press (http://www.luath.co.uk/book/language_scotslearner.htm). It's rare! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:33:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:33:32 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Nigel Smith Subject: Etymology Ron Hahn wrote: RH > Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word > _makker_ and the > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning 'friend', > 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? The word "mucker" (with [V], at least the way I pronounce it) exists in (at least some varieties) of English. Chambers gives "a best friend, mate, sidekick" among its other definitions of _mucker_. Personally I have only ever heard it used by Irish people on television (I am not familiar enough with Ireland to know whether it is generally used there or not). I had always assumed that it was a form found in Irish English, perhaps a loan from Irish Gaelic. Nigel Smith ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 01:06:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:06:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.28 (13) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica A (uner "Orthography" the day): > Ay, Colin, A dout (lernin fae Sandy!) at's jist the stert o it. Hoo dae ye > say "You created a monster" in Scots? (Weel, it's a wee onbeastie yet; > still an on it's awfie fashious auready, is ye can see.) Dang! Whit A wis at wis "Hoo DIV ye say ..." It's ill tae mind fur Sassenachs an Saxons. Regairds, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 15:55:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:55:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.29 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] Dear all, Gary and George wrote: From: Gary Taylor Subject: Labels "Hi All George wrote An Ontario friend of mine notes that it is possible in that province to find a P.C. (Progressive Conservative) who is quite p.c. (politically correct). He assures me that such a person is also almost certain to own a p.c. (personal computer.) Is it also possible for this person to be a retired PC (Police Constable) from England? :)" Nonsense, Gary! Everyone knows he would have been a retired PC (police constable) from West Wales where he would have spent his life as a faithful supporter of PC (Plaid Cymru, the Party for Wales). Poppy cock! :) Go raibh maith agaibh Críostóir. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 15:56:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:56:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.29 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subject: LL-L "Phoneme Distribution" Leve Lüü, I have a question pertaining the monophthongisation of Gmc */ai/ and the relationship between Old Frisian, Old English and Old Saxon, here goes: Whereas OE monophthongised Gmc */ai/ to OE /â/ (stân, âc, râp, clâth), OF underwent a phonemic split into OF /â/ in Proto-OF /æ-/ in (*stæ-n, *æ-k), and /â/ in (*râp, *klâth). Under which circumstances did proto-OF split the Gmc phoneme */ai/? Lexical distribution appears to be the same in all the modern Frisian varieties (ecept where loans from LG or D have replaced the original F word). Eastern Westphalian and Eastphalian seem also to have undergone a phonemic split in OS/LG /ê2/ (from Gmc */ai/). Is this a related change? What were the criteria for the split? Lexical distribution? Frisian influence? Do the OF/OS word pairs match in this split? Any answer would be appreciated, Grötens, Daniel ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 16:06:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:06:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (12) [E] Dear all, Nigel wrote: "The word "mucker" (with [V], at least the way I pronounce it) exists in (at least some varieties) of English. Chambers gives "a best friend, mate, sidekick" among its other definitions of _mucker_. Personally I have only ever heard it used by Irish people on television (I am not familiar enough with Ireland to know whether it is generally used there or not). I had always assumed that it was a form found in Irish English, perhaps a loan from Irish Gaelic." Indeed. "Mucker" is the Derry term par excellence. It seems to mean "mate" in the same sort of formations as most English dialects, e.g., "How 'bout ye, mucker!" where I would say, "Ey up, mate, aa yuh doein?" As far as I can tell, from hunches and the like, it seems to have had a rural source and is still treated as a quaint country term. In Irish "muc" means "pig" and "muceoir" or whatever its Gaelic form is, might have originally been (going on scurrilous conjecture here) a Gaelic term for a specific job on the farm specialising in pig-tending that was later transferred to a more generic meaning of affability and friendliness. Does Ian Parsley have anything to add about the use of "mucker" in Ulster Scots? My sense is that it's a Gaelic-originating Scots word (Co. Derry is, as far as I know, still a Scots-speaking area). Areas I have heard the term are limited to Cos. Derry and Tyrone... I'm not sure it's used in Donegal except in, say, the Laggan. Go raibh maith agaibh, Críostóir. ---------- From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] > From: Wim > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] > > Hi! > There is also "blak" as in water that is totally calm, no wind, for > sailing. in my dialekt...salland netherlands. > > Wim. wkv at home.nl > [Wim Verdoold] > > ---------- > > From: Ruud Harmsen > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] > > 11:03 28-10-2002 -0800, Lowlands-L: >> From: R. F. Hahn >> Apparently, the origin of English "black" is unknown, but I would > like us to >> take a crack at shedding some light on it anyway. > > Could Dutch "blakeren" be connected? It means "make black, as a > result of soot, when flames touch a surface". > > The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal) says about it (I quote > only part of the entry): > === > BLAKEREN, bedr. en onz. zw. ww. Een frequentatieve vorm van Blaken. > 1) Branden, blaken, gloeien. > a) In 't algemeen. || 't Blickren van 't geweer, en 't blaeckren van > het vier, HOOFT, Ged. 1, 90 . Wy saghen van 't Gheberght het > blaack'ren in de Dallen (t. w. in den oorlog), BREDERO 1, 46 . Een > lichte vlamme, die in 't stroo blaeckert, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . > De hei zelve is grauw-zwart, en schijnt te blakeren, SEGERS in Ned. > Dicht- en Kunsth. 1887, 336 . > b) Van de zon. || Als de zonne meest blakert en steeckt, is de > reghen veerdighst, om neer te storten, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . Ick > laet het blaeckeren, en regenen, de douwen, WESTERBAEN, Ged. 1, 184 . > === > > About "blaken" it says: > > === > BLAKEN, onz. en bedr. zw. ww. Mnl. blaken (VERDAM 1, 1284), nd. > blaken (D. Wtb. 2, 62); daarnaast mnl. blaexeme (VERDAM 1, 1283), > ohd. blecchan (zie BLEKKEN); verder verwant met lat. flagrare en gr. > flóx, flégw. Een stam die ook in beteekenis eenigzins op dien van > blaken gelijkt, vindt men in woorden als bleek, blijken, blikken. > Reeds in de 17de eeuw behoorde het woord tot de dichterlijke of > althans meer gezochte taal. > A) Onz. > 1) In vuur en vlammen staan, branden, gloeien. || De ziele daeromme > blaken moet In d'helsche gloet, V. D. MEULEN, Ketiuigh. 77 . In > teeuwich blaken, 120 . Doen lietmen Perillus daer inne blaken (t. w. > in den stier van Phalaris), MOERMAN, Clein Werelt 28 b . De kaerssen > op 't autaer Sijn sommigen gebluscht, en sommigen die blaecken, > VONDEL 3, 394 . 't Flikkrend wachtvuur, dat men voor een tent zag > blaken, TER HAAR, Ged. 1, 226 . De blakende kolk (t. w. eene stad > die in brand staat), CONCIENCE 1, 319 b . > - Figuurlijk van het "oorlogsvuur" en derg. || Alzoo de oproer vast > bet en bet blaakte, HOOFT, N. H. 872 . Het blaken van dien > burgerkrijg, STIJL, Opk. 353 . Toch blijft zij (t. w. de vlam van > den opstand) blaken, VUYLSTEKE, Ged. 2, 88 . > 2) Eene gloeiende hitte van zich geven, uitstralen. || Wanneer de > son ... Van boven blaeckt En steeckt, VONDEL 2, 733 . Den gloed van > 't blakend zonnevuur, DE MARRE, Bat. 104 (zie ook 173 ). De > blakende hette, TEN KATE, Job 149 . > - Ook van het "koortsvuur". || Als ... door heete koorts het lichaam > brand end blaackt, HOFFERUS 382 . Ziekten, wier verterend blaken ons > de jeugd te vroeg verslijt, D. J. V. LENNEP 233 . > 3) Een schitterend licht uitstralen, glanzen, fonkelen, schitteren. > === > > -- > Ruud Harmsen > Site updated 25 Oct 2002: http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm > > ---------- > > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Thanks for your interesting responses (above), folks. > > Colin, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has _blank_ as one word for "white" > (besides _witt_), frequently in the sense of "glaringly white," and > also > meaning "shiny" (e.g., metal, or "teary" or "excited" in the context of > eyes). _Blank_ is also found in place names (e.g., Blankenese "white > spit > (of land)," now a part of Hamburg). Afrikaans also uses _blank_ for > "white," as many of you may remember from signs seen in photographs and > footage from the apartheid era. > > But how do you explain */blak/ vs. */blank/, i.e., the loss of the > nasal? Hello, Here is some Flemish brainstorming: "Westvlaamsch Idioticom" by De Bo writes: -blaaieren (= blaaisteren) : Frequent. van blaaien, vlammen, laaien, schitterende branden (Fr: flamboyer) Het vuur blaaiert. De blaaierende vlam van den heerd verlicht geheel de kamer. -blak: hetzelfde als vlak, effen, bloot open. Het blakke veld. De blakke zee?Dat huis staat blak(in eene bloote en opene plaats). Tautologie: De tafel staat blak en bloot (Er ligt helemaal niets op). In Noord-Vlaanderen is een streek blak en bloot als de oogst geweerd is. Subst.: In't blakke ziet men verre. Ten blakke komen= te voorschijn komen Ten blakke zitten= in eene opene bloote plaats zitten. Zich met den blakke trekken=weggaan uit eene plaats waar men blootgesteld en in gevaar is. -blaken: In gloed zijn. Als het houtvuur uitgevlamd is, dan liggen de gloeiende kolen te blaken. De blaasbalg doet de smiskolen blaken om er 't ijzer in te gloeien. Blakende kolen geven een blauw laaiken. De vuurpot blaakt te stijf, doe er een weinig asschen op. -blaker: Ijzeren blad dat men hangt voor een open vier of kachel zonder deur, om het vier aan te jagen, anders ook aanjager, jacht en klep. De groote en de kleine blaker van een openvier. Den blaker aanhangen, afnemen. Den blaker laten gloeien. ook: papieren of metalen lichtweerkaatser op eene quinquetlamp. De blaker kaatst het licht nederwaarts. Volgens Kramers en Kiliaen ook een hanglamp of keersepan. -blakeren: Met den blaker aanjagen. Het vuur moet geblakerd worden totdat de kolen wel branden. Die stove trekt niet: Ik moet ze altijd blakeren. -blank: *De daad van blinken, glans van iets dat glad gewreven of gepolijsterd is. De blank van gepolijsterd metaal. De blank van gepoetste schoenen. Blank geven aan iets=Iets doen blinken.Blank krijgen=Beginnen blinken. De blank is eraf. De blank wegnemen. *Effen, glad, blak Blanke talje= kreupelbosch die afgekapt is aan den grond. *Op gelijke hoogte, even hoog. Het water van den gracht stond blanke met de straat. Twee tafels blanke stellen bij malkaar. *Blanke vol.Effen vol. Een glas blanke vul schenken (boordevol)Telkens het vloed is, staan die meerschen blanke vul (effen vol water). * Overstroomd, met water bedekt. Geheel die weide staat blank. De weg lag blank. * 't Is al blanke + naamw.=louter.Het is al blanke water dat men ziet(Men ziet niets anders dan water). Het was al blanke soldaten in het ronde. Het is al blanke koorn zo verre men kan zien. -blankaard: Blanke vallei, uitgestrekte waterplas, vijver. De groote vijver van Merckhem heet Blankaard. In den Blankaard visschen. 's Winters schaverdijnt men op den Blankaard. Some other remarks, -"Blank" is indeed found in place names: Blankenberge, a coasttown in West-Flanders Blankaard, a pool in W-Fl. Blanc-nez in French- Flanders which means exactly the same as "Blankeness" in Hamburg (And not so far from Blanc-Nez is a village called Hames-Boucres, which is derived from Hamburg). -The word "blanc" is used in French for "white"(the frankish influence). In a Roman language it should normally have to be "alba". Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Etymology Luc: > "Blankeness" in Hamburg It's "Blankenese". I assume this _nese_, meaning 'spit (of land)', 'headland', '(small) cape', is related to English "ness." Interestingly, it seems to be a homophone of Middle Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _nese_ (still preserved as such in some dialects, ['ne:ze]) > _Nees'_ [ne:.z] 'nose'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] > From: Michael Arnold > Subject: Origin of "Familie" > > This is my first post! Anyways... I was in German class the other day > when > we started a new "Thema" intitled Familie. I asked the instructor why > we > didn't pronounce Familie the way it was spelt but rather like Familju. > He > did not know. I know this doesn't really relate to any of the lowlands > languages, but I was hoping someone would know. > > -Michael Arnold Hello Michael, In Flanders we pronounce "ie" when the sound is stressed. When it is not, we say "ië" [i@]. We use that in particular for the deminitives. So we also say "familie" in the same way. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 21:22:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:22:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Acronyms" 2002.10.29 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.29 (01) [E] Hi? PC? Ode to the Spell Checker Eye halve a spelling checker It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say Weather eye am wrong oar write, It shows me strait a weigh. As soon as a mist ache is maid, it nose bee fore two long And eye can put the error rite its rare lea ever wrong. Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no its letter; perfect awl the weigh my checker tolled me sew. Bye. From: Lowlands Languages & Cultures [mailto:LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Lowlands-L Sent: dinsdag 29 oktober 2002 16:55 To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.29 (01) [E] From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] Dear all, Gary and George wrote: From: Gary Taylor Subject: Labels "Hi All George wrote An Ontario friend of mine notes that it is possible in that province to find a P.C. (Progressive Conservative) who is quite p.c. (politically correct). He assures me that such a person is also almost certain to own a p.c. (personal computer.) Is it also possible for this person to be a retired PC (Police Constable) from England? :)" Nonsense, Gary! Everyone knows he would have been a retired PC (police constable) from West Wales where he would have spent his life as a faithful supporter of PC (Plaid Cymru, the Party for Wales). Poppy cock! :) Go raibh maith agaibh Críostóir. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 21:30:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:30:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (04) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: elsie zinsser ezinsser at icon.co.za Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] Haai almal, Re: "Blakeren": In Afrikaans a "blaker" is a candlestick holder, and possibly related to blak or black. Ron, the racial term in Afrikaans _blank_ is not used anymore. I saw today in an article in the NY Times the term "non-black" being used and I suspect this might catch on as time goes by. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: oostendse verhalen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] Luc Vanbranbant haalde het voorbeeld Cap-Blanc-Nez aan. Minder vergeten is dat de oorspronkelijke Vlaamse naam voor die rotsen "Blankenisse" is blanc = wit, nisse is neus exact hetzelfde als Blankeniss in Hamburg Danny drooghenbroodt Oostende ---------- From: oostendse verhalen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] Ik vroeg me ook af of er enig verband bestaat tussen "black" en het Nederlandse "bleek" of het oostendse "blèk" 1) In het Nederlands gebruiken we bleek om een lichte kleur aan te duiden. bv. bleek grijs, bleek blauw, bleek groen -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) In Oostende zeggen we ook blèk zwart als we een echt diepe zwarte kleur bedoelen. (blèk van black of omgekeerd?) blèk zwart = diep zwart -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Blèk betekent ook schreeuwerige kleur (blèk groen = opvallend groen) D: Bleek groen = licht groen Oostends: Blèk groen = schreeuwerig groen, opvallend groen ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) Blèk wordt ook gebruikt om iets blinkend of schitterend aan te duiden. De zunne blèkt in je ogen De deuhenieterie blèkt in je ogen (je ogen schitteren van ondeugendheid -- pretlichtjes in je ogen) Danny drooghenbroodt oostende ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology Beste liëglanners, Brabantish also has the word "blak" in its vocabulary, but I only know it from a few expressions like : "'t lèèt dàà blak en bloeët, 't bajt bekanst in a biën", meaning "it's lying there totally uncovered, bare and so visible that it's almost biting your leg"...in some regions it's rather "blijk en bloot", that is heard. "nen blakke kater" = "een blakke kouter" (D), "een blak veld" : said of a vast field, where there's no physical obstruction, where everything is in plain view...however it does not necessarily refer to "flat", quite a number of people (mistakenly) think it's just another way of pronouncing "vlak", which it is not..."vlak" (D) is usually "plat" in Brabantish. In short, "blak" (B) means : open, exposed to light. It's worth mentioning that this word is only known in Dutch and a few Baltic (Lithuanian "blakas" = equal and Latvian "blaks" = smooth, the surface of the sea when there's no wind) languages. De Vries thinks they might be inherited from a substrate language. Could this be a relic of those pre-Indo-European languages of the Baltic-Finnic group that we briefly discussed earlier on ? It's only a small step to "blec" from here, an old dutch word that is used to describe a patch of land that is almost "drowning" *s*, up till its nose in the water, but part of it is still glittering in the sun. This brings me to the verb "blikken" which is used in Brabantish when a card has to be turned upside down. She is then lying barenaked on the table, in full view. Besides, the word "naked" is always pronounced "not" (in card games for example : "'k ém d'n iër not" or "a was màà pèrnot geklid", litterally signifying : he was dressed like a toad, being scantily clad). Regarding "Blanc Nez" and "Blankenese", I would like to quote De Vries on nes : "...'buitendijks land, vaak door aanslibbing gevormd, eig. landpunt'. mnl. nesse, nes m. v. 'stuk land van een bepaalde vorm' eig. 'landtong', mnd. nes m. 'landtong; voorgebergte' (alleen in plaatsnamen bewaard), oe. næss m., on. nes o. < germ. *nasja, vgl. russ. nosu 'voorgebergte'. - Zie verder : neus. Vaak voorkomend in plaatsnamen zoals Nes, Nisse en in samenstellingen zoals Scherpenisse, evenals ook Terneuzen. Another Brabantish word that is related to this lot is "blaëk", "bleek" (D), "bliëk" in Flemish, the name for a patch of grass that is used to bleach the linen, again exposure to light (the sun in this case) is obvious. However, the Dutch dictionary of Van Dale broadens the meaning of "blak" (D), saying it could be used for any object having a colour that "differs, contrasts with the environment"...and so not only clear, visible, white and shining objects could be explained, but also dark items like "black" ink on a white background or dusk (shimmering light opposed to broad daylight)...I agree this explanation itself sounds pretty obscure *s*. Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 22:20:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:20:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.29 (05) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Vocabulary" This submission is about rude words, so don't read on if you don't like this sort of thing. I've been wondering about everyday words that many people consider to be rude, especially if, because of their status, they rarely appear in traditional literature. My contributions will be with respect to how this sort of thing is said in my own dialect of Scots. The questions are: 1. Are the same words used in other dialects of Scots, or are my own ones non-standard? 2. How are they said in other Lowlands languages? Are there unexpected similarities? "F" and "C" Words: These are exactly the same in (my dialect of) Scots as in English, though in rural Scots they're rarely used. So I don't really have anything to say about them in this context. There are some other rude words which are just as in English, which I'll refrain from mentioning as also not being very interesting in this context. "Fart" This is the same as in English, though of course pronounced /fQ:r?/. I was surprised to find that in England and Wales this isn't considered particularly rude, which makes sense as it's a very necessary word. In my area of Scotland, however, it would be more usual to substitute a euphemism. "Burp" In (my dialect of) Scots, this is "rift". However, I have come across it once in the literature, in John Hamilton's "More Country Capers", a book of stories and poems in Ayrshire dialect, so this must be widespread in the south of Scotland at least. In a poem about a local baker: His mornin rolls ar fou o holes, Inside, there's little body, They hiv the gift tae gar ye rift, For they'r fou o bakin sodae. "Tits" In my area this is "dous" /du:z/, which, taken literally, means "doves". However, "dou" in the singular is a term of endearment for a woman, and not offensive at all, as used in the drinking song "Toddlin Hame": Leez me on liqor, ma toddlin dou, Ye'r aye sae guid-humoured when ye'r weetin yer mou; Whan sober sae soor, ye'll fecht wi a flee, It maks a blythe nicht tae the bairns an me, Whan toddlin hame, toddlin hame, Whan roond as a neep ye come toddlin hame. "Balls" As well as using the Scots form of this word, we might say "nits" /nI?s/, meaning "nuts", although we use the alternative pronunciation /nV?s/ when speaking about the vegetable kind. "Piss" This is "pish", which I'm fairly sure is general Scots. It seems to be used in pretty much the same way as its English of England counterpart: "pishin doun" (pissing down rain) "rip the pish" (take the piss), "pished" (pissed = drunk). "Penis" "Tossle" /tos=l/ seems to be the most usual way of saying this in Scots: not as rude as some alternatives, yet not as polite as some. It literally means "tassle", and "tossle" is also used for tassles such as you see hanging from curtains and so on. A child's penis is refered to as a "peep" /pip/ in my dialect. "Arse" This is "erse". "Erse" can also mean the Irish language, but there's no connection between the two and they're never confused by native Scots speakers. A child's bottom might be referred to quite innocently as "ersie" as in this old rhyme intended to teach breastfeeding technique: Wamie tae wamie, Haunie tae back, Breestie tae mouie, Clap, ersie, clap. Here, "wamie, haunie, breestie, mouie /mu:I/, ersie" are all diminutives of "wame" (stomach/womb), "haun" (hand), "breest" (breast), "mou" (mouth) and "erse" (arse). "Clap" means to pat or stroke. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Sandy, Lowlanders, A couple of subscribers' naughtiness filters are going to have a field day. I can see the rejecttion messages coming already. :) For whatever it's worth, here are the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) equivalents I can come up with (not that I would know such naughty language, though): R = rude, MP = more polite > "Fart" noun: Puup [p_hu:p] (masc., pl. __s(e)_) Scheet [Se:t] (masc., pl. ___) verb: pupen ['p_hu:pm=], puupsen ['p_hu:psn=] MP: eenen gahn/fahrn laten ["to let one go"] > "Burp" verb: MP: upstöten ['?Upst9Itn=] MP: upbolken ['?UpbolkN=] MP: upkolken ['?UpkolkN=] > "Tits" noun: R: Titt [t_hIt] (masc., pl. __en_) MP: Bossen ['bOsn=] (masc., pl. __s) MP: Bost ~ Boss [bOs(t)] (fem., pl. __en_) > "Balls" noun: Klööt [kl9It] (masc., pl. Klöten) > "Piss" noun: Piss ['p_hIs] MP: Pie ['p_hi:] verb: pissen ['p_hIsn=] pirsen ['p_hI3`zn=] miegen ['mi:gN=] schiffen ['SIfm=] pullern ['p_hUl3`n] strullen ['strU.ln] MP: pien [p_hi:n] MP: watern ['vQ:te3`n] MP: Water laten ['vQ:t3` 'lQ:tn=] > "Penis" noun: Pint [p_hInt] (masc., pl. ___s) Pieler(t) ['p_hi:l3`(t)] (masc., pl. __s) Piedel ['p_hi:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) Piehahn ~ Piehaan ['p_hi:hQ:n] (masc., pl. __s) R: Pisser ['pIs3`] (masc., pl. __s) R: Dödel ['d9:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) Pesel ['p_he:sl=] masc., pl. __s) [mostly of animals] > "Arse" noun: Aars ~ Oors [?Q:3`s] ~ [?o:3`s] (masc., pl. __(e)) Maars ~ Moors [mQ:3`s] ~ [mo:3`s] (masc., pl. __(e)) Naars ~ Noors [nQ:3`s] ~ [n3`:as] (masc., pl. __(e)) Eers [e:3`s] (masc., pl. __(e)) Gatt [gat] (neut., pl. __s) Kötelkist ['k_h9:tl=kIs(t)] (fem., pl. __en) ["turd box"] MP: Steert [steI3`t] (masc., pl. __en) ["tail"] MP: Achtersten ['?axt3`stn=] (masc., pl. ___) ["hindmost (one)"] MP: Achterback ['?axt3`bak] (fem., pl. __en) ["hind cheek"] MP: Achtersteven ['?axt3`ste:vm=] (masc., pl. __s) ["hindquarter"] MP: Sett-di-daal ['zEtidQ:l] (masc., pl. __s) ["sit-yourself-down"] MP: Pöter ['p_h9:t3`] (masc., pl. __s ~ ___n, a child's) MP: Pöker ['p_h9:k3`] (masc., pl. __s ~ ___n, a child's) There you have it! (I wonder what our new subscribers will think.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 23:00:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:00:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.29 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Help needed I have received a request (below) to date signatures that, according to the description given, are Dutch (probably not Lowlands Saxon/Low German, which would have _book_ or _bouk_ rather than _boek_). If anyone can help with dating early Dutch signatures, please contact Daniel Rettberg (drettberg at huc.edu) directly. I wonder if the said book was taken or sent from Italy to then still young Sephardic community of the region that now encompasses the Netherlands and Northern Germany. It certainly sounds most fascinating. Thanks and regards. Reinhard/Ron === I am writing to you on the recommendation of Prof. Stephen Crist at Emory University. I have a small Rabbinic piece (Pirke Avot) in Hebrew with Ladino translation, printed in 1601, probably in Venice. Unfortunately, it has lost its title leaf, and I am checking every "angle" I can to discover its history. The endpapers have several inscriptions, mostly names of previous owners. Interestingly enough for a book that may have had its origins in Italy and that has a Judaeo-Spanish translation accompanying it, these names are all Germanic in nature. One has written, "Dat is m... boek," in what appears to be a Dutch or Low German dialect. I would like to find someone capable of dating the signatures based on handwriting style, spelling, etc. Do you know someone familiar enough with seventeenth and eighteenth century German hands to be able to assist me? I can send photocopies of the inscriptions. Thank you in advance for any assistance you may be able to offer. Daniel J. Rettberg, Senior Associate Librarian Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion Klau Library Cincinnati, OH drettberg at huc.edu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:35:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:35:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.30 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.28 (03) [D/E] To Marco: I would suspect that the turning point for the Dutch spoken by the Jackson Whites came with WW II. At least, this seems to have marked the turning point for many other linguistic islands in the USA. I used to own a house on a mountaintop in the Catskills and several of my neighbors who were born just before or after WW II told me that Dutch was spoken in their homes as a daily language when they were growing up. German too. The area supported a local German newspaper that lasted until the 1960's. By the way, the Jackson Whites in appearance are largely of European decent. They are very mixed, however. Squeek deGroat had dusky skin and a bit of kinkiness in his hair but had European facial features. His cousin, the one with six fingers, had light blond hair and blue eyes. You can't really absolutely tell a Jackson White by appearance. Tom ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:38:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:38:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] At 00:02 29/10/02, Reinhard/Ron wrote: >But how do you explain */blak/ vs. */blank/, i.e., the loss of the nasal? A one-off quirk? Do such things happen in the evolution of language? Goodwill to all, Colin Wilson. ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] > From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com > Subject: Etymology > > Luc: > >> "Blankeness" in Hamburg > > It's "Blankenese". I assume this _nese_, meaning 'spit (of land)', > 'headland', '(small) cape', is related to English "ness." > Interestingly, it > seems to be a homophone of Middle Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _nese_ > (still > preserved as such in some dialects, ['ne:ze]) > _Nees'_ [ne:.z] 'nose'. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Ron, Sorry for the mistake! I had a look in a little book called "De Nederlanden in Frankrijk" by Jozef van Overstraeten(1969). -Cap Blanc-Nez (Blankenes of Wittenes) : Kaap aan het nauw van Kales (French: Calais) tussen Sangatte (V: Zandgat) en Wissant (V: Witzand) met loodrechte witte mergel- en krijtrotsen, 134 m hoog. Bij mooi weer ziet men zeer goed de Engelse kust (De "clifs of Dover") 1672:blanest, 17de eeuw:Le Blanest. -Cap Griz-Nez (Zwartenes): Gemeente in het land van Bonen (French: Boulogne). Op slechts 28 km van Engeland. 1546:Blanquenés, 1660:Swartenes,1699:Swartenes of Grinay alias Grisnais of Grines. Oorspronkelijke betekenis: Craig-Ness = rotsenkaap (?) Groetjes, Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:39:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:39:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Acronyms" 2002.10.30 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Acronyms" 2002.10.29 (03) [E] "Hi? PC? Ode to the Spell Checker Eye halve a spelling checker It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say Weather eye am wrong oar write, It shows me strait a weigh. As soon as a mist ache is maid, it nose bee fore two long And eye can put the error rite its rare lea ever wrong. Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no its letter; perfect awl the weigh my checker tolled me sew." I love it!!! Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:42:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:42:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.30 (04) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.28 (13) [S] At 01:06 29/10/02, Reinhard/Ron wrote: >Dang! Whit A wis at wis "Hoo DIV ye say ..." It's ill tae mind fur >Sassenachs an Saxons. "Hoo dae ye say..." is awricht, as lang as ye're nae pittin the emphasis on "dae". Tae cairry emphasis it his tae be "div", itherwise "dae" or "div" can baith be yuised. Wi guidwull, Colin Wilson. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:44:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:44:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.30 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] Dear all To complete the colour scheme I would like to add purple. Until recently we in the NL had a coalition of liberals and social democrats for two terms which we used to call Purple I and Purple II. After having the Christian democrats in the government "from the Romans on", the new coalition (1994) of left wing liberals, right wing liberals (blue)and social democrats (red) was called Purple. Met vriendelijke groeten Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 16:52:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:52:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Lexicon Beste Sandy, Here goes my list (Brabantish): 1) "fart" : scheet, vèès, prot 2) "burp" : zoëe, verb = oproejen, opsmaëtn 3) "tits" : tètt(e)n, loez(e)n, mèmmen, ank 4) "balls" : kloeët(e)n, ball(e)n 5) "piss" : piss(e)n, zeiken, striëpen 6) "penis" : pië(ke), spel, gemacht (=4+6), floët 7) "arse" : gat, jèès (in combinations), kont, ol, oos, prot Mind you, these are all the uncensored terms. If someone wants to behave more stylish he/she can use more polite (euphemistic or non-Brabantish) words. Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.29 (05) [E/S] Dear all, Sandy wrote: "This submission is about rude words, so don't read on if you don't like this sort of thing." Indeed. I remember getting into quite a lot of trouble because of this quite some time ago, and into even more bother when I vainly tried to point out that swearing formed an integral part of my language (in the sense that it had positional uses necessary to expressing certain emotions) and that it shouldn't be looked down upon. I think I lost the argument back then and I'd probably lose it again now, so the warning's there and other subscribers shouldn't affect offence now having read it. "I've been wondering about everyday words that many people consider to be rude, especially if, because of their status, they rarely appear in traditional literature." It's quite intriguing because in my language, the Long Eaton sub-dialect of Nottingham English, we only have the "non-polite" forms: we use the general English terms when we want to be polite. This is because my language has no status whatsoever beyond the home and community. Let's go. "F and C." Here in Derry (and when I was in Australia) I'm continually mocked for the /u/ in these words. My wife mimicks me but says the sound as [u:w] which it most certainly isn't. It's a very pursed-lip /u/ merging into a schwa sound (very difficult to describe) or perhaps an /o/ and I've not heard it anywhere but in the Midlands and North of England. My Derry friends mimick it as [O], the /o/ sound in English "cot". It was this difficult sound that kept making me think there was some Scandinavian connection to the phonology of Nottingham English. "Fart". Yep, fart is the same the world over, although in Cornwall fart is known but not used. The common term there in informal speech is to say someone has "shit themselves" e.g. "I just shit mysel an am stankin' [stinking].". This was a bit strange to a Nottingham English speaker, as it means soiling oneself accidentally. I never heard anyone in Western Australia say "fart": there was always a turn of phrase employed instead, e.g., "Who's dropped their lunchbox/guts?" "Burp." Same. Although again turn of phrase (probably brought about by taboo) is more likely to be employed, as in "I wo jus nilly sick in mi maaf." (I was just nearly sick in my mouth meaning a strong belch). Belch is about as likely to be heard as burp, if you'll pardon the pun. "Tits." I got the sense as a child that "tits" was a informal loanword perhaps brought about by service in the army. "Boobs" in the natural term to a Nottingham English speakers, and I've heard "dugs" on more than one occasion. "Balls." Always bollocks. Bollocks is used far more elastically than balls, too, e.g., "Uh you gunnuh kol thuh landlord uh baat this eatin?" "Am ah bollucks." (Are you going to call the landlord about this heating?" "Am I bollocks.") It's the most versatile word in my vocabulary after fuck and can be inserted almost anywhere. "Ah, bollucks" is what I would say for "OH shit.", with the emphasis on the "ah". If I narrowly averted getting hit by a car (which I have done on my occasions in this city), I'd say "OOH bollocks"... ooh [u:w:] seems the natural verbal expressant of shock/relief, whereas ah [ae:] is used for exasperation, stress, etc. A very inventive term I heard in Western Australia for testicles was "cluster". It cracked me up then and it's cracking me up now, because it's so clever. "Piss." Always piss, never pish. Used in the same way as Scots, although I would say, "Pissin *it* daan" (note the inclusion of "it"), "Rippin *thuh* piss". Penis "Willy" when you're younger, then afterwards "knob" and "cock". "Dick" seems to be imported. Arse. Same. And that's it. Bollucks tuh this! :) (Meaning I've other things I *have* to do now, not meaning in any way that I have not enjoyed writing this letter). Go raibh maith agaibh Críostóir. ---------- From: Elsie Zinsser Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.29 (05) [E/A] Haai all, Here are the Afrikaans equivalents of Sandy's list. Some might be my family specific: > "F" and "C" Words: /f/ is one of the few Afrikaans words starting with an /f/. I suspect it should be spelled with a /v/. [I only realized at age 42 that my parents knew the word too.] /c/ is spelled with a /k/. > "Fart" Formal: wind laat Casual: poep > "Burp" Formal: wind opbreek Younger people: E. "burp" We use "kraak" in my family. > "Tits" Formal: borste Rude: tiete > "Balls" Informal: Knaters, Formal: Testikels [My secondary school Biology handbook in the late 60's still had it as "teelballe"] > "Piss" Informal: pie {pronounce: pee}, piepie Formal: water laat Rude: pis Also: "sy pis alweer" - she's lacrymose again. "gepis" - drunk. > "Penis" - "Tossle" /tos=l/ Informal (not rude): tros, trossie, [tolleman is used in my family] > "Arse" Rude: gat, poepol, hol Acceptable: anus, agterwereld Incidentally "gatsak" is a back pocket, and quite acceptable. ("gat" means "hole" - in a roof, or in flooring) Regards, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon I wrote: > > "Penis" > > noun: Pint [p_hInt] (masc., pl. ___s) > Pieler(t) ['p_hi:l3`(t)] (masc., pl. __s) > Piedel ['p_hi:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) > Piehahn ~ Piehaan ['p_hi:hQ:n] (masc., pl. __s) > R: Pisser ['pIs3`] (masc., pl. __s) > R: Dödel ['d9:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) > Pesel ['p_he:sl=] masc., pl. __s) [mostly of animals] Add to this lovely array the following: noun: Niller ['nIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) Diller ['dIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) Diddel ['dIdl=] (masc., pl. ___s) > > "Burp" > > verb: MP: upstöten ['?Upst9Itn=] > MP: upbolken ['?UpbolkN=] > MP: upkolken ['?UpkolkN=] Also: MP: upbölken ['?Upb9lkN=] MP: böllern ['b9l3`n] What really interests me about words of this type is tabooization, replacement and their consequences. For instance, I have noticed that at least older Lowlands Saxon (Low German) speakers in Germany, or anyone feeling the need to sound more polite tends to use the more polite *German* equivalents or loan translations for such words to make them sound more "medical" or "clinical." To give you a classic example for what I called "tabooization" and "replacement" above I have to resort to a language that, although also Germanic, is outside the Lowlands area: Yiddish. As most Americans know, "shmock" is a swearword derived from Yiddish. Usually people call a person a "shmock," typically a male, and some people know that the original meaning is 'penis', and they use it for in that sense in some contexts, especially on the American east coast. What is interesting is that Yiddish _shmok_ or _shmuk_ seems to have really started out as a replacement for a tabooized word. (Thus, similar to "family jewels" for "testicles" in English.) The original meaning of Yiddish _shmok_ or _shmuk_ is 'jewelry', 'finery', 'decoration', obviously related to German _Schmuck_ (verb _schmücken_ 'to decorate'), LS _Smuck_ (adj. _smuck_ 'pretty', verb _smuck maken_ 'to decorate', 'to embellish'), Danish _udsmykning_ (verb _smykke_, _udsmykke_), Swedish _smykke_ (verb _utsmycka_), perhaps also (Old English _smoc_ >) "smock" (a type of garment) and verbal "to smock" > "smocking" (a special type of decorative garment stitching). As far as I can tell, because of the replacement, Yiddish does not seem to use _shmok_ or _shmuk_ in the original sense anymore, though the derived noun _shmokler_ ~ _shmukler_ 'lacemaker' survives. The word for 'jewelry', 'finery', 'decoration' tends to be _cirung_ (cf. German _Zier_ 'prettiness', _Zierde_ 'embellishment', etc., LS _Tier_ 'prettiness', 'delicate or affectedly fine manner'). So it seems the taboo replacement word then became tabooized itself and also came to be used as a swerword. Perhaps you can come up with similar cases in Lowlands languages. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 16:57:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:57:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.30 (07) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Resources Dear Lowlanders, I have received the following appeal for help. If you wish to help, please write to Ms Mirzahanova (nadya_m1763 at yahoo.com) directly, unless you feel the information ought to be shared with all of us. Thanks. Reinhard/Ron === From: Nadine Mirzahanova Date: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:47 AM To: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Re: Brief Sehr geehrte Lowlands! Ich schreibe zum ersten Mal und orientiere mich noch nicht gut in der Lowlandswelt. Ich habe zwei Fragen: 1.Wie ist es moeglich die noetigen Materialien aus offline-Seiten per online zu bekommen? 2. Ich interessiere mich fuer Probleme der Entwicklung der Zeitformenparadigma in der germanischen Sprachen und moechte die Fragen, die mit dem Preteritumschwund und umgekehrt mit Perfekt- nichtvorhandensein, besprechen. Wie ist das Thema zu starten? Vielen Dank, Mirzahanova Nadine ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 20:01:04 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:01:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] > From: Criostoir O Ciardha > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (12) [E] > "The word "mucker" (with [V], at least the way I pronounce it) exists in (at > least some varieties) of English. Chambers gives "a best friend, mate, > sidekick" among its other definitions of _mucker_. Personally I have only > ever heard it used by Irish people on television (I am not familiar enough > with Ireland to know whether it is generally used there or not). I had > always assumed that it was a form found in Irish English, perhaps a loan > from Irish Gaelic." Muck n. dung, manure, wet or clinging filth etc. Muck v. to clear muck e.g in a cow shed, stable etc. Mucker n. a person who mucks, a fellow mucker with whom one is on good terms would affectionately be addressed as 'mucker', hense the modern usage for friend, mate etc. Old Norse myki, Danish mög, Anglo-Saxon? (hlos) moc Andy Eagle ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Andy: > Old Norse myki, Danish mög, Anglo-Saxon? (hlos) moc What about Latin (> English) _mucus_ (root: _muc-_)? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 20:12:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:12:17 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.29 (05) [E/S] > From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] > Subject: "Vocabulary" > > This submission is about rude words, so don't read on if you > don't like this sort of thing. > > I've been wondering about everyday words that many people > consider to be rude, especially if, because of their status, > they rarely appear in traditional literature. > > My contributions will be with respect to how this sort of > thing is said in my own dialect of Scots. The questions are: > > 1. Are the same words used in other dialects of Scots, or > are my own ones non-standard? > > 2. How are they said in other Lowlands languages? Are there > unexpected similarities? > > "F" and "C" Words: Same Here. A cam ower the 'C' wird clunge, A dinna ken it it micht juist be slang. >Fart > This is the same as in English, though of course pronounced > /fQ:r?/. I was surprised to find that in England and Wales > this isn't considered particularly rude, which makes sense > as it's a very necessary word. In my area of Scotland, however, > it would be more usual to substitute a euphemism. Fairt/Fert? > "Tits" > > In my area this is "dous" /du:z/, which, taken literally, > means "doves". However, "dou" in the singular is a term of > endearment for a woman, and not offensive at all, as used > in the drinking song "Toddlin Hame": Paps, The place name Paps O Jura. Mebbe no rude, juist colloquial. > "Penis" > > "Tossle" /tos=l/ seems to be the most usual way of saying > this in Scots: not as rude as some alternatives, yet not > as polite as some. It literally means "tassle", and "tossle" > is also used for tassles such as you see hanging from curtains > and so on. A child's penis is refered to as a "peep" /pip/ in > my dialect. Pintle, tadger Andy Eagle ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Dear all, Elsie wrote: "Also: "sy pis alweer" - she's lacrymose again. "gepis" - drunk." While "to be pissed" seems to enjoy general currency in every country with English except the United States*, in my language you never *just* say "pissed" to mean "drunk". You are "pisst aat yuh face" (pissed out [of] your face) or "bollucksed" or "aat y'red" (out [of] your head). Are there any continental Lowland languages that use this formation, i.e., "out of your face" to mean drunk? It's quite common in the Englishes of England. It's also quite a strange construction for English to use. Could it be borrowed from other Lowland languages? *Is it true that one way to tell a Canadian apart from someone from the US is that Canadians say "pissed" to mean "drunk" whereas USers only ever use the term to mean "angry" and don't understand it as "drunk" at all? Go raibh maith agaibh, Críostóir. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon I wrote: > > > "Penis" > > > > noun: Pint [p_hInt] (masc., pl. ___s) > > Pieler(t) ['p_hi:l3`(t)] (masc., pl. __s) > > Piedel ['p_hi:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) > > Piehahn ~ Piehaan ['p_hi:hQ:n] (masc., pl. __s) > > R: Pisser ['pIs3`] (masc., pl. __s) > > R: Dödel ['d9:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) > > Pesel ['p_he:sl=] masc., pl. __s) [mostly of animals] > > Add to this lovely array the following: > > noun: Niller ['nIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) > Diller ['dIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) > Diddel ['dIdl=] (masc., pl. ___s) And talking about or to children: noun: Piller ['p_hIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) Pillermann ['p_hIl3`ma.n] (masc., pl. ___s) > The > original meaning of Yiddish _shmok_ or _shmuk_ is 'jewelry', 'finery', > 'decoration', obviously related to German _Schmuck_ (verb _schmücken_ 'to > decorate'), LS _Smuck_ (adj. _smuck_ 'pretty', verb _smuck maken_ 'to > decorate', 'to embellish'), Danish _udsmykning_ (verb _smykke_, _udsmykke_), > Swedish _smykke_ (verb _utsmycka_), perhaps also (Old English _smoc_ >) > "smock" (a type of garment) and verbal "to smock" > "smocking" (a special > type of decorative garment stitching). As far as I can tell, because of the > replacement, Yiddish does not seem to use _shmok_ or _shmuk_ in the original > sense anymore, though the derived noun _shmokler_ ~ _shmukler_ 'lacemaker' > survives. The word for 'jewelry', 'finery', 'decoration' tends to be > _cirung_ (cf. German _Zier_ 'prettiness', _Zierde_ 'embellishment', etc., LS > _Tier_ 'prettiness', 'delicate or affectedly fine manner'). So it seems the > taboo replacement word then became tabooized itself and also came to be used > as a swerword. Perhaps you can come up with similar cases in Lowlands > languages. Well, an English example would be "cock," which at least in American English tends to be avoided and substituted with "rooster" in reference to a male bird, because the former had come to denote 'penis'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 01:01:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:01:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson stlev99 at yahoo.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (09) [E] As an American, I didn't even know 'pissed' meant joke until reading Australian and English lit. Until this email from Criostoir, I didn't know it was used in Canada in that sense! Thanks. Stan > From: Criostoir O Ciardha > Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] > *Is it true that one way to tell a Canadian apart > from someone from the US > is that Canadians say "pissed" to mean "drunk" > whereas USers only ever use > the term to mean "angry" and don't understand it as > "drunk" at all? > > Go raibh maith agaibh, > > Críostóir. ---------- From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Dear all, At 12:12 PM 10/30/02 -0800, you wrote: *Is it true that one way to tell a Canadian apart from someone from the US is that Canadians say "pissed" to mean "drunk" whereas USers only ever use the term to mean "angry" and don't understand it as "drunk" at all? I wasn't aware of that. However, both uses are quite current in Ontario. One distinguishes the difference with a postposition, e.g. "He was piss'd right o-ut of his f..kin mind." and "She was piss'd right off at him." One might also say, "He was royally piss'd", in which case one would have to seek further context for the meaning. BTW, when one says "Canadian" in a linguistic sense, we are referring to a basic linguistic heritage which is not shared by the Province of Newfoundland, which is much more related to southern Appalachian than the Mid-Atlantic speech pattern that the rest of English speaking Canadians adopted from the refugees of the First Anglo-American War. One must also keep in mind that Canada is some 4,000+ miles across, and there are some minor regional vocabulary and speech differences. Ed Alexander ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (09) [E] Ron wrote: "Well, an English example would be "cock," which at least in American English tends to be avoided and substituted with "rooster" in reference to a male bird, because the former had come to denote 'penis'." As far as I know most definitely just in American English, as the bird of the name in most of the Englishes of England (especially mine) is a "cockerel", *never ever* a cock - "cock" is specifically and exclusively part of the male anatomy. I once heard tell of "cock" (i.e., penis) deriving from the name of a part of a ship back in the days when conscription into the British navy was a daily hazard (around 1815), although given how these conversations come about (usually in pubs and the like), I was probably drunk at the time and the information can't be relied upon... Any Lowlanders out there know anything about ships? Go raibh maith agaibh, Criostoir. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 01:04:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:04:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.30 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: erek gass Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.30 (05) [E] Sounds colourful. Did such odd grouping get anything done? >From: pieter meester >Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] > >Dear all >To complete the colour scheme I would like to add purple. Until recently we >in the NL had a coalition of liberals and social democrats for two terms >which we used to call Purple I and Purple II. After having the Christian >democrats in the government "from the Romans on", the new coalition (1994) >of left wing liberals, right wing liberals (blue)and social democrats (red) >was called Purple. >Met vriendelijke groeten >Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 01:19:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:19:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.10.30 (12) [E/S/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) andy at scots-online.org Subject: Halloween Since halloween is upon us I thought fellow Lowlanders might enjoy Robert Fergusson's poem (1750 - 74) The Version below is edited using a more 'modern' orthography and has had the grammar Scottified. The Original version follows. Hallae-Fair At Hallaemas, whan nichts growes lang, An starnies shines fou clear, Whan fowk, the nippin cauld tae bang, Thair winter hap-wairms weirs, Naur Edinburgh a fair thare hauds, A wat thare's nane that's name is, For strappin dames an sturdy lads, An caup an stoup, mair famous Than it that day. Upo the tap o ilka lum The sun begoud tae keek, An bad the trig made maidens come A sichtly jo tae seek At Hallae-fair, whaur brewsters rare Keeps guid ale on the gantries, An dinna scrimp ye o a skair O kebbucks frae thair pantries, Fou saut that day. Here kintra John in bunnet blue, An eik his Sunday claes on, Rins efter Meg wi rokelay new, An sappie kisses lays on; She'll tauntin say, ye silly cuif! Be o your gab mair spairin; He'll tak the hint, an creash her luif Wi whit will buy her fairin, Tae chowe that day. Here chapman billies taks thair staund, An shaws thair bonnie wallies; Wow, but thay lie fou gleg aff haund Tae trick the silly fallaes: Heh, Sirs! whit cairds an tinklers comes, An ne'er-dae-weel horse-cowpers, An spae-wifes fenyiein tae be dumm, Wi aw siclike landlowpers, Tae thrive that day. Here Sawny cries, frae Aiberdeen; 'Come ye tae me 'at needs: The brawest shanks that e'er war seen A'll sell ye cheap an gweed. A wyte thay are as protty hose As comes fae weyr or leem: Here tak a rug, an shaw's your pose: Forseeth, ma ain's but teem An licht this day.' Ye wifes, as ye gangs throu the fair, mak your bargains huilie! O aw thir wylie louns bewaur, Or fegs thay will ye spulyie. For fernyear Meg Thamson gat, Frae thir mischievous villains, A scawt bit o a penny note, That lost a score o shillins Tae her that day. The dinlin drums alairms oor ears, The sergeant screichs fou lood, 'Aw gentlemen an volunteers That wiss your kintra guid, Come here tae me, an A shall gie Twa guineas an a croun, A bowl o punch, that like the sea Will soum a lang dragoon Wi ease this day.' Athoot the cuissers prance an nicker, An ower the ley-rig scud; In tents the carles bends the bicker, An rants an rairs like wud. Than thare's sic yallochin an din, Wi wifes an weans gablin, That ane micht trowe thay war a-kin Tae aw the tongues at Babylon, Confuised that day. Whan Phoebus ligs in Thetis laup, Auld Reekie gies thaim shelter, Whaur cadgily thay kiss the caup, An caw't roond helter-skelter. Jock Bell gaed furth tae play his freaks, Great cause he haed tae rue it, For frae a stark Lochaber aix He gat a clamihewit Fou sair that nicht. 'Ohon!' quo he, 'A'd raither be Bi swuird or bagnet stickit, Than hae ma croun or bodie wi Sic deidlie wappins nickit.' Wi that he gat anither straik Mair wechty than afore, That gart his feckless bodie ache, An spew the reekin gore, Fou reid that nicht. He pechin on the causey lay, O kicks an cuffs weel sert; A Hieland aith the sergeant gae, 'She maun pe see oor gaird.' Oot spak the warlike corporal, 'Pring in ta drunken groat, For that neist day. Guid fowks, as ye comes frae the fair, Bide yont frae this black squad; Thare's nae sic savages elsewhaur Alloud tae weir cockaud. Than the strang lions's hungry maw, Or tusk o' Roussaen beir, Frae thair wanruly fellin paw Mair cause ye hae tae fear Your daith that day. A wee soop drink dis unco weel Tae haud the hert abuin; It's guid as lang's a cannie chiel Can staund steeve in his shuin. But gin a birkie's ower weel sert, It gars him aften stammer Tae ploys that brings him tae the gaird, An eik the Cooncil-chaumer, Wi shame that day. ______ Some Comments: Robert Fergusson was Born and lived in Edinburgh but his parents came from Aberdeen. He was obviously acquaint with Aberdeen speech. Robert Burns called him "my elder brother in misfortune, by far my elder brother in the muse". In Verse 5 Sawny (Sandy) from Aberdeen is quoted in dialogue gweed = guid (good) weyr or leem = weir/wire or luim (loom) teem = tuim (empty) The above simply show the North-East rendering /i/ of the vowel. 'at needs = that needs, Interestingly the original (below) has 'fa need' = wha need (who need) The Scots idiom is of course 'that needs'. In North-East Scots this is rendered 'at. I have my suspicions that this infact may be a different word than 'that' but serving the same function. 'The 'at used in the North-East may be from Old Norse 'æt' whereas the 'that' used further south is from Anglo-Saxon 'Þæt'. 'That' is of course often ellided to 'at in connected speech. but in the North-East, in traditional varieties, ''at' is always used in place of 'that'. Can anybody shed some light on this suspicion? Verse 11 The Highland soldiers: 'She maun pe see oor gaird.' pe = be 'Pring in ta drunken groat,' Pring = Bring, ta = the showing the Gaelic phonology of the Highlanders speaking Scots. This kind of thing often appeared in Scots literature of the time. More about Gaelic influenced Scots at http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/gaelic.htm The Original version: Hallow-Fair At Hallowmas, whan nights grow lang, And starnies shine fu' clear, Whan fock, the nippin cauld to bang, Their winter hap-warms wear, Near Edinbrough a fair there hads, I wat there's nane whase name is, For strappin dames an sturdy lads, And cap and stoup, mair famous Than it that day. Upo' the tap o' ilka lum The sun bagan to keek, And bad the trig made maidens come A sightly joe to seek At Hallow-fair, whare browsters rare Keep gude ale on the gantries, And dinna scrimp ye o' a skair O' kebbucks frae their pantries, Fu' saut that day. Here country John in bonnet blue, An' eke his Sunday claise on, Rins efter Meg wi' rokelay new, An' sappy kisses lays on; She'll tauntin say, ye silly coof! Be o' your gab mair spairin; He'll tak the hint, and criesh her loof Wi' what will buy her fairin, To chow that day. Here chapman billies tak their stand, An' shaw their bonny wallies; Wow, but they lie fu' gleg aff hand To trick the silly fallows: Heh, Sirs! what cairds and tinklers come, An' ne'er-do-weel horse-coupers, An' spae-wives fenzying to be dumb, Wi' a' siclike landloupers, To thrive that day. Here Sawny cries, frae Aberdeen; 'Come ye to me fa need: The brawest shanks that e'er were seen I'll sell ye cheap an' guid. I wyt they are as protty hose As come fae weyr or leem: Here tak a rug, and shaw's your pose: Forseeth, my ain's but teem An' light this day.' Ye wives, as ye gang thro' the fair, mak your bargains hooly! O' a' thir wylie lowns beware, Or fegs they will ye spulzie. For fairn-year Meg Thamson got, Frae thir mischievous villains, A scaw'd bit o' a penny note, That lost a score o' shillins To her that day. The dinlin drums alarm our ears, The serjeant screechs fu' loud, 'A' gentlemen and volunteers That wish your country gude, Come here to me, and I shall gie Twa guineas and a crown, A bowl o' punch, that like the sea Will soum a lang dragoon Wi' ease this day.' Without the cuissers prance and nicker, An' our the ley-rig scud; In tents the carles bend the bicker, An' rant an' roar like wud. Then there's sic yellowchin and din, Wi' wives and wee-anes gablin, That ane might true they were a-kin To a' the tongues at Babylon, Confus'd that day. Whan Phoebus ligs in Thetis lap, Auld Reekie gies them shelter, Whare cadgily they kiss the cap, An' ca't round helter-skelter. Jock Bell gaed furth to play his freaks, Great cause he had to rue it, For frae a stark Lochaber aix He gat a clamihewit Fu' sair that night. 'Ohon!' quo' he, 'I'd rather be By sword or bagnet stickit, Than hae my crown or body wi' Sic deadly weapons nicket.' Wi' that he gat anither straik Mair weighty than before, That gar'd his feckless body aik, An' spew the reikin gore, Fu' red that night. He pechin on the cawsey lay, O' kicks and cuffs weel sair'd; A Highland aith the serjeant gae, 'She maun pe see our guard.' Out spak the weirlike corporal, 'Pring in ta drunken groat, For that neist day. Good focks, as ye come frae the fair, Bide yont frae this black squad; There's nae sic savages elsewhere Allow'd to wear cockade. Than the strong lions's hungry maw, Or tusk o' Russian bear, Frae their wanruly fellin paw Mair cause ye hae to fear Your death that day. A wee soup drink dis unco weel To had the heart aboon; It's good as lang's a canny chiel Can stand steeve in his shoon. But gin a birkie 's owr weel sair'd, It gars him aften stammer To pleys taht bring him to the guard, An' eke the Council-chawmir, Wi' shame that day. ___ Guid guising an galoshin oot alang the causey but dinna lat the ghaists an bogles fleg ye. An whan dookin for aiples - dinna droun or clart yersels fae the traicle anes hingin doun! Andy ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Literature Dear Lowlanders, And below once again, for good measure to further enhance your Halloween, Klaus Groth's Lowlands Saxon (Low German) poem with my English translation (http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/). Regards, Reinhard/Ron === DAT GRULI HUS vun Klaus Groth Dat süht bi Dag' so fründli ut mit Doer un Finstern gel, Des Nachts is dat en gruli Hus, denn slarrt dat langs de Del. Dat slarrt op Tüffeln, Schritt voer Schritt, dat slarrt de hin un her, Doch wenn de Dag des Morgens graut, so hört man dat ni mehr. Dats jüs, as gung en ole Fru, un söch de ganze Nach, Un kunn ni finn' un söch un söch bet an den hellen Dag. Dat kumt des Abends ut de Stuv un wannert langs de Del, Un föhlt herum bi jede Doer, as wenn de Sloetel fehl. Dat funßelt an de Koekendoer, dat kloetert an den Rink, Dat kraut un grabbelt an de Bred un röhrt an Slött un Klink. Denn slurrt dat wieder an de Wand un raschelt in den Gank, Denn pett dat langs de Trepp tohöch un trufft de Boen hentlank. Dar trufft dat langsam hin un her un wöhlt in Törf un Kaff, Denn pett dat wedder na de Luk un kumt de Trepp heraf. De Saaldoer hett en isen Ked, dar ritt dat ganze Stunn': Doch wenn de Hahn des Morgens kreiht, ist jedesmal verswunn'. === THE EERIE HOUSE by Klaus Groth Translation: R. F. Hahn ©2002 It looks so welcoming by day with yellow frames and doors. But it's an eerie house by night. There's shuffling across floors. There're slippers shuffling, step by step. There's shuffling on and on. But with the new day's morning light those shuffling sounds are gone. It sounds like an old woman's walk in search throughout the night. It seeks and seeks but cannot find until the day's first light. At nightfall it moves from the lounge, comes crawling gingerly And gropes about outside each door as though it lacked the key. It fiddles with the kitchen door, it rattles and it knocks, It claws and fumbles at the boards and touches knobs and locks. Then it slides on along the wall -- swish! - down the hall some more. Then it goes climbing up the stairs onto the attic floor. Up there it slowly stomps about and rummages and tears. Then it steps back toward the hatch and comes back down the stairs. The lounge door's heavy iron chain keeps rattling, on and on. But when at dawn the rooster crows the whole thing's simply gone. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 06:03:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:03:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.30 (13) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] >Hi friends ( I hope) Thanks to Gary for his PC police constable. The overlap with politically correct is doubtful - but not impossible - particularly if the retired British PC (Police Constable) is also a black Tory (in the Afro-Canadian sense.) Of course this would make him simultaneously a red and black Tory (my Jamaican born doctor fits this combo as well). It all goes to show that in the interests of linguistic diversity it is helpful to have friends of all political stripes! Thanks for the answer on Jacob/James! not to mention Diego! As to my Plantagenet loyalty, I should clarify that this applies only to England and the Commonwealth - of course the House of Stuart - now represented by the Wittelsbach heir of Bavaria (ironically) is the legitimate royal House of Scotland - the perfidious "Act of Union" between the crowns of England and Scotland having been obtained by bribery - and hence void. My allegiance to the Plantagents is not philosophical but genealogical. For example I have never forgiven the Tudors for beheading my ancestor Ursula Pole. But speaking of the Tudor propagandist par excellence, William Shakespeare, I once read that he intended clearly for his characters to speak in their own local dialects and not in the sort of contrived "Shakespearean stage English" we are all familiar with today. Apparently there is strong evidence that his selection of words for certain characters - ( I remember reference to Hotspur and the Northumbrian uvular "r") to emphasize the peculiarities of their regional speech. I have never heard a Scottish sounding MacBeth let alone (little own?) a Gaelic accented one. Any thoughts or experience of dialect in Shakespeare? ps Saint Jacobs Ontario where my maternal grandfather was born is still so German many people jokingly refer to it as Yakobstrudel (a take off on "Jacob's stettel.) Alle die beste George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 06:15:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:15:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (14) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (14) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] At 04:02 PM 10/28/02 -0800, Colin wrote: Not to mention English/Scots "blank", and French "blanc(he)" with numerous cognates in the Romance languages. So that's the origin of "black" - it really means "white"! Is this shift analogous to the shift that occurs in good > better (badder) > best (baddest)? I understand that German got _Familie_ from Latin _familia_ rather than from French _familie_, hence the final schwa vowel developed from _a_. That would have been my understanding. I've always been intrigued by the retention of Latin case endings in HG with the use of the name Jesus Christ, at least until more modern times, e.g. "Paulus, ein Knecht Jesu Christi, berufen zum Apostel, ausgesondert zu predigen das Evangelium Gottes" (Römer 1:1)(Luthers Übersetzung). Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Dear Lawlanders, A wis readin wir Colin's braw beuk (Luath Scots Learner) agane the noo whan A fund a Scots wird at stertet anither braith i ma kinna forfochen heid: "dreich" [drix] (~ _dree_ [dri:] = English _dreary_, _long-lasting_, _tiresome_, _hard to bear_). At's tae a shavin lik the Lawlands Saxon (Laich German) wird _dröög'_ [dr9:.j] ~ _dröög_ [dr9:C] (< _dröge_ ['dr9:ge]) at bears 'dry' an aw. (Fer example a lang lecter can be "dry" an dreich.) A lippent at the Scots wird fer _dry_ wuid be "dreich" an aw, bit it's "dry"! A'm ferlie cause the Auld English has _dry^ge_ ['dry:j@] fer 'dry', an A wis expeckin sumhin lik *_dreich_, *_dreech_ or *_dree_ fer it in Scots, sumhin wioot a diphthong an mibbie ennin wi a fricative. Whit dae ye think, fowk? Cuid "dreich" be the oreeginal Scots wird fer "dry" an aw, an cuid "dry" be an English lenwird? Or cuid "dreich" een be a Lawlands Saxon lenwird? Guidwill till ye aw (an A apologees maistlie till wir dear Scottish freends fer thrapplin their bonnie leid). Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 06:21:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:21:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.30 (15) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (15) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (10) [E] At 05:01 PM 10/30/02 -0800, Críostóir wrote: >in the days when conscription into >the British navy was a daily hazard (around 1815), Actually, in 1815 the problem had disappeared with the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The conscription or "impressment" of American sailors into the British navy on the high seas was "necessitated" by the grievous need for sailors in a nation fighting for its life against Napoleon and trying to pretty much blockade the Continent and inhibit trade with France anyway it could. In retaliation for this and some other similar grievances, the Americans declared war on Britain and attempted to seize British North America (Canada), which they thought would be a lot cheaper than trying to invade Britain or build a navy large and powerful enough to challenge the British on the open seas. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 06:29:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:29:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.30 (16) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (16) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Folks, We have been experiencing some sporadic server problems today, both in email and on the web, perhaps having started yesterday already. I have had to resort to alternative means of sending out some of today's issues. As a result of intermittent delivery problems, some of your posting submissions have been arriving in fits and starts, and some of them took a long time to arrive. Should you wonder why any of your submissions did not appear, it could well be that I did not receive them. In that case, please resubmit them. Thanks you all for your patience and understanding until this problem has been resolved. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 16:12:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:12:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.30 (01) [E] Thomas Byro wrote: > I would suspect that the turning point for the Dutch spoken by the Jackson > Whites came with WW II. At least, this seems to have marked the turning > point for many other linguistic islands in the USA. I used to own a house > on a mountaintop in the Catskills and several of my neighbors who were born > just before or after WW II told me that Dutch was spoken in their homes as a > daily language when they were growing up. German too. The area supported a > local German newspaper that lasted until the 1960's. Thanks again for the information, Tom! Details like this (Dutch being spoken as a home language in the Catskills untill WWII) are very important for learning more about language survival. Most popular as well as scientific linguistic literature about the Dutch language abroad state that Dutch as spoken by the early settlers in NJ and NY died out around 1900 with a few possible last second language speakers that died in the 1930s. That's why all this information about the Jackson Whites, Dutch being spoken in the Catskills untill at least 1945 and Robert Bowman's grandmother who spoke Dutch and died around 1953 is so interesting. One should in this respect make a strict distinction between the Dutch spoken by decendants of the earliest settlers (1620-1700) and the Dutch spoken by more recent immigrants (from 1840 and on). The Dutch spoken by the earlier settlers developed almost completely independent from the Standard Dutch language (apart from Dutch ministers that were schooled in Holland and sent out to Dutch Reformed Churches in NJ/NY). In a way, this situation can be compared with the way Afrikaans developed from the Dutch spoken by 17th century settlers. The Dutch culture in NY and NJ was apparently strong enough to sustain for more then 300 years after the English took over the Dutch colony of New Netherland. The Dutch of more recent immigrants didn't have time to develop; like most immigrants languages Dutch died out amongst the decendants of these more recent immigrants in about three generations. Among the latter, one can hardly suspect to find some 'forgotten' last speakers, because the language has no or little cultural and historical value to the speakers. In the case of the earlier colonists, the language for a long time stood for their culture and background. Linguistst once believed that the Dutch/Zeelandic creole language of the US Virgin Islands had died out around the 1940s. But the last first language speaker only died in the 1990s and there are a few quite competent second language speakers left even today. The reason that the language survived on an island where English and English based creole have been the majority languages for about 200 years now, is that people took their culture seriously. English speaking islanders still talk very positively and with great melancholy about the 'old creole' (_ow creol_). I wouldn't be surprised if a few second language speakers of Jersey Dutch turn up in the end. Apart from that rather romantic look on things, it is also very important linguistically to learn more about the conditions under which languages are able to sur- vive longer then anyone would expect. So Tom and others, every single detail about this subject would be very much appreciated. Thanks! Marco ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Marco, Lowlanders, Dutch as an immigrant language is still used in the very north here in Washington State (the northwesternmost of the USA), at the border with British Columbia, also north of the border. The center is Lyndon on the US side, a bit northeast of Bellingham, stretching all the way up to the Canadian border. I have heard it spoken myself by locals in the streets and shops of the town. It is supposed to be also spoken in the surrounding farming country (which is also a center for horseback riding enthusiasts). I have been told that Lowlands Saxon (of the Eastern Netherlands) and Westerlauwer Frisian are spoken there as well. Judging by the names of farms and companies, the presence of people of Frisian descent must be pretty strong. I would not be all that surprised to find out that Zeelandic is spoken there as well. I would love to find out more about it, but people who are from that area have told me that it tends to be rather difficult for outsiders to make social contacts there, anything beyond the tulips-and-windmill tourist thing. (They do serve good pannekoeken there and in parts of British Columbia.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 16:17:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:17:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.31 (02) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (04) [S] Sandy wrate: > >Nouadays I aye uizes automatic transliteration tools tae >prepare the texts on ScotsteXt for uploadin. > >This means that whan A come across spellins A dinna richt >unnerstaun, A canna git past them wi a wee bit internal >bletherie ony mair! > >As weel, the orthographic considerations for electronic >texts can be a bit different in their ettle nor texts for >fowk haein read at. In parteeclar: > > o bein technically (or historically) richt is like > tae be mair important than the text leukin familiar > (wi hou the wirds can be translatit intae mair > familiar spellins automatic); > > o it's better if a spellin can staun as a unique > signifier for a wird (sae's the transliteration > saftware disna git fanklt ower the likes o > ("wood") an ("mad"), for example, it wad be > better tae wale for "wood" - if the > spellin wis nott at the last, the transliterator > could haunle it). >Onywey, ae parteeclar area o spellin A'm no shuir aboot is >auxiliaries, espaecially the conditionals written in English >, an , an as weel, . > >The questions is: > > o A tak it that the best wey tae spell an > is wi the saicondary vowel, ie an > ? I gree wi Andy here - the regional variants disna shaw the UI diaphoneme. I wad gang wi 'coud' an 'shoud' - again the whaur the war - the fact at the is thare in English tae disna maiter. > > o Ar the ony kin o differ wirth preservin atween the > forms an an an in > traditional texts, or wad A be as weel tae settle > on the tae kin o sibilant an lat the transliterator > owerset tae the tither gin it's wantit? Again I gree wi Andy, at the'r nae differ apairt frae the pronunciation. The pronuncins 'sood' an 'sall' is fameeliar ti me frae Shetlandic, likely the aulder wey. I wad haud wi the writer's practics. > > o What alternative spellins ar the for , that > wad sinder it fae meanin "mairy"? The SND > suggests - appearinly the /l/ is or wis > soondit in some airts, but A div still want the > electronic texts tae be in weel-kent Scots for whan > a transliterator's no tae haun. A dout micht > no be a guid representation o the uizual range o > pronunciations ootthrou the Lawlands? Thare is a conflict here atween sinderin ilka wird frae ither (like ye hae ti dae for yer foond-text) an sinderin homographs in onie actual text for readin - whaur, alang wi Andy, I wad threip at this is no necessar. Coorse I suppose the logical spellin o auld _wald_ wad be _waud_, follaein the common orthographic practice o writin 'u' for vocalised 'l' - sae _haud_ frae _hald_, _saut_ frae _salt_, etc. Thare's nae muckle precedent for this in writin this word, I dinna think, but ye coud uise it (or for that maiter) as yer oreeginal spellin, juist for the sake o the transliterator, coud ye? I dinna think ye can get onie ither kenspeckle spellin wi'oot a homograph wi aither 'wad', 'wid' or 'wud'. (I pronunce it [wId], but I write it ). At onie rate, I 'waudna' follae whit a lot o Scots writers dis, an spell 'wid' (Eng. wood) as , cause that raivels the diaphonemics. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ---------- From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (10) [S] Sandy wrate: >A startit the mail in English an syne efter typin twathree >wirds decidit tae write it in Scots insteed - A maun a forgotten >tae chainge the English "I" intae a Scots "A" in the first sentence! Nou hing on a meenutie! Ye canna say at 'I' is English an 'A' is Scots - baith pronunciations exists in sindrie dialects (whiles wi a emphatic/unemphatic sinderin) an the chyce o or is mair or less a bawbee-flingin maiter. Coorse, I ken ye'r spaekin aboot yer ain practics here - hou ye sinder the English an Scots in spellin. >Hivin sayed aa this, baith ma spellins an Colin's is aa fanklt >wi English orthographic 'principles', an sae ye can haurly expeck >conseestency onywey! A ken fine nouadays hou tae heyst masel oot >this historic boggie, but A'v got it on guid authority that naebody >wad want tae read ma Scots if A did! This is no necessarily true. Ye coud mak up a consistent spellin for Scots foondit on English orthography - for example, consonant-dooblin rules - as lang as ye war willin ti re-spell aa the English words at disna conform ti thae rules - like _door_ -> , _tongue_ -> , etc. Forby, pairt o the raivelment o English spellin comes frae the fact at the'r mair nor ae kynd o spellin in uiss - ane for words o Auld English origin (did we decide at 'springheid' wisna a richt word?), an anither - wi different consonant dooblin rules, for example - for Latinate an Greek words (no ti mention the French an ither anes, like 'touch'). Sae ye'v ti recognise thaim as sindrie systems - an morphological spellins the likes o '-na' an '-fu' as anither. I whiles wonder whit Scots spellin wad be like gin it wis spelt efter the spellin rules o the Latin an Greek loanwords - wi nae, or little, consonant dooblin, for example. I ken ye'v cleckit sic a system yersel afore nou, but wad it be different gin the ettle wis ti haud the Latinate an Greek word i the same system? Wad it be possible? Haith - I'v likely stertit ye aff again....! Here's a phoneme leet, wi my ain spellin practics (foondit on the Spellin Comatee anes). This is a maistly non-technical ASCII version, uisin capitals for spellins insteid o bold or (if that's whit ye caa thaim) an maistly invertit commas for roch pronunciations. Cause this wis written for Scots, the pronunciation guide is foondit on SSE - Scottish Standard English. I hinna pitten in onie phonetics as sic, except for ti shaw the differin pronunciations o the /ai/ diphthong. The phoneme script is foondit on SAMPA, an is no ettelt ti be phonetically accurate. In the /e-/ an /e+/ phonemes, the /-/ an /+/ is ti shaw at, in sindrie dialects, /e+/ tends ti rise ti [i] (eg: _breid_ can be [bred] or [brid]) an /e-/ ti faa ti [E] (_bairn_ can be [be:rn] or [bE:rn]) Merk at the examples gien includes English cognate words, whan thay'r spelt efter the same rules I uise for Scots as a hale. John M. Tait. Pronunciation and Spelling of Scots Vowel Phonemes. / / - Underlying phonemes (of Scots seen as a whole) [ ] - Broad phonetic approximations /a/ - Pronounced as in SSE cat. Spelt A, as in slap, grat, tag /A/ - as in SSE caught, or in some dialects as a longer form of the A in SSE cat. Spellings: AU usually initial and medial - aumrie, auld, fauld, faur, waur AW final - craw, braw - and initial and medial in some words, e.g. awfu, bawd, bawbee, bawsant AA where English and older Scots have final -ALL, e.g. baa, faa, aa, aabodie A final in na, wha, twa, awa and ava. /E/ - as in SSE let Spelt E, e.g. hert, gless, teckle (Note: there is considerable dialect variation between /e-/ and /E/). /e-/ - as in SSE hair Spellings: AI initial and medial e.g. airt, airm, sair, mair AE final, e.g. brae, strae /e+/ - Pronounced in some dialects as 'ee' in SSE seen, in others as 'ai' in SSE hair. Spellings: EI e.g. heid, breid, deid (usually where EA in the English cognate is pronounced 'e') AE or EA, e.g. maet, aets, baet (usually where EA in the English cognate is pronounced 'ee') /e/ - as SSE gate, with some dialect variation (such as NE 'steen', stane, and 'wyle', wale). Spelt A-E, e.g. hame, stane, wale. /I/ - Pronounced as in SSE sin; but in some dialects often as 'u' in SSE sun. Spelt I - e.g. sin, wind, hill /i/ - Pronounced as in SSE seen . Spellings: EE - e.g. neep, greet, reek, eediom, speerit IE typically before CH, R, V, L(D) and ST - e.g. driech, spier, scrieve, bield, chiel, niest. /O/ - Pronounced in some dialects as in SSE got, in others as 'oa' in SSE goat Spelt O - e.g. on, got, shop, lot, loch /o/ - Pronounced as in SSE goat Spellings: OA - e.g. coat, throat, gloaming O-E - e.g. thole, hole /V/ - Pronounced as in SSE cut Spelt U - e.g cut, but, gun. /u/ - Pronounced as in SSE moon (in some dialects approaching the sound of German ü) Spellings: OU - e.g. doun, fouth, fou, hou OO where the English cognate has OU pronounced 'ow', e.g. hoose, moose, oot, oor. /y/ - Pronounciations as follows: 1. Like German Ö or Ü in some conservative dialects - e.g. 'spün', 'pör', 'öz'. 2. 'ee' in the North East - e.g. 'speen', 'fleer', 'eeze' 3. 'ai' (long) and 'i' (short) in most Central dialects - e.g. 'spin', 'pair', 'yaize'. Spelling: UI, e.g. spuin, fluir, uise (Note that UI words usually have an 'oo' sound in the English cognate - e.g. spoon, poor, use). /ju/ (original /y/ + velar) - Pronounced as EW in SSE few, but in some dialects as U in SSE luck. Spelt EU - e.g. heuk, neuk, teuk, leuk, leuch, eneuch (Because of the different pronunciation distribution, the EU spelling is preferable to UI before K and CH.) /ai/- as in SSE bite, five ( [b at It], [faiv] - determined by Scots Vowel Length Rule). Spellings: I-E or Y-E according to precedent in most identical English cognates, e.g. bike, sine (trigonometric), ripe, bite, line, hide, (mega)byte, hype, five, rise, tired, tyre, byre. Y-E (Y before consonant clusters) in most words without obvious or identical cognates in modern standard English, and for words corresponding to English OI, e.g. byke, syne, rype, gype, synd, hyne, kythe, kye, jyne, byle Y before consonant clusters even in identical English cognates, e.g. mynd, kynd. (?) EY finally for the short sound only - e.g. gey, fey, stey /ou/ - as in SSE how Spelt OW medial, OWE final - nowt, growe http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 19:28:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:28:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (01) [E] Ron wrote: > Dutch as an immigrant language is still used in the very north here in > Washington State (the northwesternmost of the USA), at the border with > British Columbia, also north of the border. The center is Lyndon on the US > side, a bit northeast of Bellingham, stretching all the way up to the > Canadian border. I have heard it spoken myself by locals in the streets and > shops of the town. It is supposed to be also spoken in the surrounding > farming country (which is also a center for horseback riding enthusiasts). > I have been told that Lowlands Saxon (of the Eastern Netherlands) and > Westerlauwer Frisian are spoken there as well. That's great to hear. Lynden is one of the few places with a largely Dutch population that I did not know of yet. The fact that Dutch is still spoken there sets it apart from a lot of other Dutch American communities. Dutch as an immigrant language is as far as I know only still spoken in Pella (Iowa), Zeeland & Holland (Michigan), the Amsterdam-Churchill area (Montana) and Prinsburg (Minnesota). The latter being the town with the highest percentage of Dutch descended people in the US census of 2000: about 75%. Zeelandic is still spoken in the vicinity of Zeeland (Michigan) and a few places in county Wayne (NY) (Marion, Arcadia, Williamson...). The latter being probably the only few villages were Zeelanders form the biggest "ethnic" group in the USA. But bear in mind that we're talking about relatively recent immigrants and their language here. Most of the towns I mentioned above, were founded between about 1840 and 1910. Older people and newcomers may still speak the language, but the lifecycle of the language will probably follow the usual pattern of dying out within three or four generations. The Jersey Dutch language variety that we discussed earlier on this list, is something completely different. It derived from the Dutch spoken by the very first colonists in New York and New Jersey around 1630. So it has a history of some 300 years and it developed completely independently from Dutch as a separate language variety. I think you can to some extend com- pare it with Pennsylvania Dutch , a language that de- veloped from the High German dialects of the Pfalz area and has been spoken in the USA for about 300 years now. Regards, Marco ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Thanks for spelling the name of the place correctly as "Lynden," Marco. I always misspell it for some reason, probably because of the men's name Lyndon. (http://www.ehpweb.com/lynden/main.htm) I have long been under the impression that language loyalty among Dutch and other North European immigrants is generally weak. When I was living in Western Australia, there were many Indonesian-born "Dutch" people there. I knew several couples in which both partners had Dutch as their primary language. They did not teach their children and grandchildren Dutch (at least not enough to make them competent speakers), and in one of the couples the partners even spoke English with each other most of the time. Here in the US I know a Belgian couple. He is from Brussels, and she is from Antwerp. Both of them have Dutch as their primary lamguage and use it with each other in relative privacy. They have never made an attempt to teach their daughter Dutch, so that the girl's grandparents have to talk English with her when they visit here or she visits them in Belgium. Recently the girl expressed an interest in learning a second foreign language (after French). I pointed out Dutch study resources, but they steered their daughter in the direction of German, saying that "Dutch is useless." Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 22:27:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:27:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: language survival Hello, Marco wrote: That's great to hear. Lynden is one of the few places with a largely Dutch population that I did not know of yet. The fact that Dutch is still spoken there sets it apart from a lot of other Dutch American communities. I was just in Lynden in June and was hard pressed to find anyone who spoke Dutch. The people I did speak to only knew a very little or told me that a relative spoke it. It seems to be dying out quickly there. On the other hand, when I was in Solvang, California, I met several people who still spoke Danish fluently. But even there, there were many who had no knowledge of Danish. Kevin Browne ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (01) [E] >Hi! Does anyone know where I can get some information on Albany Dutch? One of my Loyalist/Tory ancestral lines from New Brunswick (Canada) includes about 40 ancestors from Beverwijk, Albany, and Poughkipsie in colonial New Netherlands/New York. I too have heard Dutch in Lynden/Lyndon? Washington. Both Dutch and German are spoken by farrm families in the Fraser Valley of British Columbia between Langley and Hope - particularly German by the large Mennonite community at Clearbrook, in Abbotsford, and in Sumas - just across the line from Lynden. Lynden is also the cleanest little town I have ever been in - with the most churches per acre as well. In the Kootenay Boundary country - between Grand Forks and Nelson - the Doukhobors (anarchist vegetarian pacifist communalist Christians) preserve their own archaic Russian dialect. I have heard that the Hutterites in Alberta have their own German dialect, and that there is also a lot of German still in the Rhineland district of southwestern Manitoba, while Kashubian (language or Polish dialect) from the Pomeranian /Polish border region was spoken in the Ottawa Valley - and may still survive to some extent, as with German on the Lunenberg stretch of Nova Scotia's east coast. There is a bit of Gaelic left in the Margaree valley of western Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia. This latter has had some revival with younger learners - almost entirely because of the discovery of its wonderful musical and singing tradition. Language preservationists take note - get the kids singing it and writing their own songs in it and it might have a shot! Good luck! George ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Last time I was in Lynden, the place was swarming with young Mennonites that were on a bus tour from across the border. They were wearing traditional costume. I was desperate to hear them talk, but they talked very little and very softly, and I was afraid they would have me arrested for stalking them if I got any closer. Ah, well. But I did hear Dutch spoken here and there. George, Kashubian (Cassubian) presence in North America is not negligible, and Kashubian is often used here in its own right, independently from Polish. http://www.feefhs.org/kana/frg-kana.html http://www.ka-na.org/ http://www.kaszuby.com.pl/ http://modraglina.republika.pl/kaszlink.html What is interesting about Kashubian (which is considered by many the surviving eastern branch of Pomeranian, replaced by LS on what is now the German side of the border) is that it has a lot of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) influences, traditionally referred to as "German" influences. This and the fact that some Kashubians are or used to be Lutherans caused some Poles to refer to them as Germanized Poles. I understand that, like Lowlands Saxon in Germany, Kashubian is losing speakers in Poland, though Kashubian cultural loyalty is still fairly strong among young people. http://odur.let.rug.nl/lic/abs/toby.html Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Henry Baron Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (06) [E] As one who grew up in Lynden, WA, I can attest to the fact that Lowlands languages are still heard around town and church, particularly Frisian. This is even more the case in Grand Rapdis, MI, where I now live. Years ago there was a large Frisian society here, named after Gysbert Japiks. Now some twenty of us get together regularly for lunch, practicing the Westlauersk Frisian tongue. A Frisian church service once a year still draws some hundred people. A number of folk still use Grunnigs and Dutch as well. Some of these are second-generation who learned the mother tongue at home. But yes, in the not too-distant future, that too will have passed. Henry ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 23:11:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:11:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.31 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser at icon.co.za Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Hi all, Yes Ron, it is true that "the taboo replacement word then became tabooized itself and also came to be used as a swerword." [sic] A typical example in Afrikaans is "kak" - faeces (from L. faex). An euphemistic form [*cagare* sp.? - still known in Italian] took its place and has become the form now used in Afrikaans. As this "k" word (noun and verb) became a taboo word in Afrikaans, the form "akkies" came to be used, mostly amongst smaller kids and their mothers. The word 'poef' is more generally used in closed company. The origin of 'smuk' interested me! (I always knew it was suspect :-) In Afrikaans the word is used to denote an embellishment, whether fake or echt, and semantically carries a somewhat negative meaning. Talking about taboos - while reading your LS forms on /penis/ other similar Afrikaans forms came to mind, i.e. _piel_ (rude) (from Latin pilus - arrow _peester_ (which I know from childhood but unknown to most Afrikaans speakers my age or younger). Incidentally also known in Mennonite Plaut. Regards, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Ron wrote: >What really interests me about words of this type is tabooization, >replacement and their consequences. For instance, I have noticed that at >least older Lowlands Saxon (Low German) speakers in Germany, or anyone >feeling the need to sound more polite tends to use the more polite *German* >equivalents or loan translations for such words to make them sound more >"medical" or "clinical." > Curiously, I find a different tendency in Shetland. My pious aunts would use words like 'erse' when speaking Shetlandic, but I can't imagine them saying 'arse' when using English. The English form sounds more rude. I think that in English there is a dichotomy between polite and impolite words which is less pronounced in many local dialects. That is, these dialects, being perceived as more 'earthy', use words which would be regarded as impolite in English without any impolite connotation, and some people will use words (or their cognates) when speaking 'dialect' which they would not use when speaking the standard language. Of course, this does not mean that some words - such as the F and C words - are not still regarded as impolite. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon John Magnus: > Curiously, I find a different tendency in Shetland. My pious aunts would use > words like 'erse' when speaking Shetlandic, but I can't imagine them saying > 'arse' when using English. The English form sounds more rude. Ah, that's similar in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), but only if there is no sexual connotation. I hear and read our own Clara Kramer-Freudenthal use LS words whose German equivalents she would never use. In fact, because the German equivalents are considered too rude, people will often substitute them with LS equivalents when they speak German. This makes it a little funny in a folksy sort of way and thus more acceptable, but it can of course only be done among North Germans that understand such words, at least via Missingsch. For instance, a North German counterpart of your aunt would not say _Er ist auf den Arsch gefallen_ ("He fell on his arse.") but might say _Er ist auf den Moors gefallen_ (using the LS word, cf. LS _He is up d'n Moors fullen_) or, borrowing a LS phrase, _Er ist moorslangs hingefallen_ ("He fell down on his backside ("arselong")"; cf. LS _He is moorslangs daalfullen_). Similarly, your aunt's counterpart would have no problem expressing something like "That's too bad/a shame/a bad situation!" or "Rats!" or "Shoot!" as _Das ist ein Schiet!_ where the fully German version _Das ist eine Scheiße!_ or, more North German with the LS-based masculine, _Das ist ein Scheiß!_ (which you will hear younger people say practically anywhere) would not be acceptable. I noticed a similar phenomenon among speakers of Yiddish or their descendants, both in Hebrew and English. A Hebrew or English expression would be substituted with its Yiddish one to soften it, take out the sting, such as _tokhes_ ~ _tukhes_ for "ass" (= backside), or _meshugge_ for "crazy", or for dramatization of disapproval and/or ridicule, _shmatte_ ("rag") for "rag" (= old, ugly dress/outfit). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 23:12:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:12:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.10.31 (09) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Labels" > From: George M Gibault > Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] > > reference to Hotspur and the Northumbrian uvular "r") to emphasize the > peculiarities of their regional speech. I have never heard a Scottish > sounding MacBeth let alone (little own?) a Gaelic accented one. > Any thoughts or experience of dialect in Shakespeare? ps Saint Jacobs > Ontario where my maternal grandfather was born is still so German many > people jokingly refer to it as Yakobstrudel (a take off on "Jacob's > stettel.) English West Country people (speakers of the Wessexian dialects) complain about Shakespearian actors' use of "do", where it's used as an auxiliary, eg "She do talk perdy" (not being able to think of an example from Shakespear, I make up my own!). I think this gives a sort of continuous tense, but anyway, the "do" shouldn't be emphasised, it should be pronounced with a schwa, or elided to the following word if it begins with a vowel. There is a Scots translation of Macbeth by R L C Lorimer (Canongate Press, 1992) ISBN 0 86241 389 3. I quote: Thunner an lichtning: Ben comes the Three Weirds. WEIRD I Whan will hiz three meet agen? In binnerin flauchts o fire or renn? WEIRD II Whan the tuilyie-muilyie's dune, an the bargain's tint or wun. WEIRD III That sall tide gin darkening. WEI RD II Whaur convene ye our meeting? WEIRD I Tryst wi me on Hardmuir, neth our wee hillock. WEIRD III Tae hailse MacBeth! WEIRD I Horse an hattock, horse an ride! WEIRD II Comin, Bawtie! WEI RD III Puddock cries, belyve, belyve! Aa three Weirds [skailin] Fair be foul, an foul be fair, flicher i the smoch an smitten air! [But gae they aa. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 23:32:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:32:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.31 (10) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (14) [E/S] Ron wrate: A'm ferlie cause the Auld English has >_dry^ge_ ['dry:j@] fer 'dry', an A wis expeckin sumhin lik *_dreich_, >*_dreech_ or *_dree_ fer it in Scots, sumhin wioot a diphthong an mibbie >ennin wi a fricative. > >Whit dae ye think, fowk? Cuid "dreich" be the oreeginal Scots wird fer >"dry" an aw, an cuid "dry" be an English lenwird? Or cuid "dreich" een >be a Lawlands Saxon lenwird? > >Guidwill till ye aw (an A apologees maistlie till wir dear Scottish >freends fer thrapplin their bonnie leid). I dinna ken aboot the etymology here (tho CSD gies ME _dregh_, _dre(i)3(yogh)_ as the source o 'driech', wi 'dree' as a - aiblins obsolete - variant) but I juist thocht at, gin Ron isna fashed bi constructive creeticism o his Scots, I'd pynt oot at I dinna think ye can say 'I'm ferlie.' CSD dis leet it as a adjective (tho it disna gie onie examples) but as faur's I'v iver haurd it's aither a noun ('that's a ferlie') or a verb ('he ferlied at the sicht.'). It coud be a aulder uiss, o coorse. Gin Sandy haes his SND haundy... Canna be muckle wrang wi yer Scots, Ron, if I can only finnd ae thing ti girn aboot! Haud gaun, I wad say. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology John Magnus: > Canna be muckle wrang wi yer Scots, Ron, if I can only finnd ae thing ti > girn aboot! Haud gaun, I wad say. Och, muckle-shmuckle! Girn awa! A dinna mynd sae lang as A can haud forrit wi ma "Scots" an git a smirtle oot o it noos an thans. Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 23:37:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:37:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.31 (11) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "spelling" 2002.10.30 (12) [E/S/LS] Dear Scots Lowlanders, Are there any attemps made in Scotland to reform Scots spelling? It is my impression that Scots spelling is very inconsistent (as is English) and that the Middle Scots orthographic practises are only partially retained whereas English-based trasliterations similar to English dialect orthographies are often intermingled with the older Scots forms. Do Scots speakers with the ability to write Scots feel their orthographical traditions to be separate from Standard English in Scotland, or are there attemps to reintegrate older spellings and bring back what has been replaced by English dialect orthography ( I specifically mean the -spellings; or are they felt to be Scots?). Have there been attempts to "start from scratch" and invent an entirely new Scots orthography based on phonological analasys, or supra dialectal forms? Yours, Dan ---------- From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Orthography" > From: John M. Tait > Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (04) [S] > > Coorse I suppose the logical spellin o auld _wald_ wad be _waud_, follaein > the common orthographic practice o writin 'u' for vocalised 'l' - Ay, that's no a bad idea. > bawbee-flingin maiter. Coorse, I ken ye'r spaekin aboot yer ain practics > here - hou ye sinder the English an Scots in spellin. That's richt, it wis a anecdote! A'v been thinkin on giein up on the "A" spellin for a guid while nou. Apairt fae the fack that it's soondit different in different airts (it's written "Eh" in a Dundee dialeck beuk A'v got), it's no aesy tae write - A keep forgettin tae capitalise it and whan it's in wee letters it's haurd tae nottice it's a mistak wi the wey it leuks juist like the indefinite airticle. > >Hivin sayed aa this, baith ma spellins an Colin's is aa fanklt > >wi English orthographic 'principles', an sae ye can haurly expeck > >conseestency onywey! A ken fine nouadays hou tae heyst masel oot > >this historic boggie, but A'v got it on guid authority that naebody > >wad want tae read ma Scots if A did! > > This is no necessarily true. Ye coud mak up a consistent spellin for Scots > foondit on English orthography - for example, consonant-dooblin rules - as It is sut true. The'r nae richt rules in English orthography, juist derivations o what's the maist uizual wey tae write things. This is how A'v got 'principles' in quotes abuin. Can ye set doun the consonant-dooblin rule in sic a wey as it's vera near aye richt? > French an ither anes, like 'touch'). Sae ye'v ti recognise thaim > as sindrie > systems - an morphological spellins the likes o '-na' an '-fu' as > anither. How hiv ye tae? The'r'd be naething wrang wi writin 'tutch' "staishin" an siclike ayont the auld excuise that fowk wadna like it. > whiles wonder whit Scots spellin wad be like gin it wis spelt efter the > spellin rules o the Latin an Greek loanwords - wi nae, or little, > consonant > dooblin, for example. I ken ye'v cleckit sic a system yersel > afore nou, but > wad it be different gin the ettle wis ti haud the Latinate an Greek word i > the same system? Wad it be possible? > > Haith - I'v likely stertit ye aff again....! A dinna see hou this can be duin at aa. The Romans an Greeks atween them didna hae eneuch vouels for us, sae the'r nae precedents for the digraphs we'd need. A daur say it's aesy eneuch tae simplify English/Scots spellin dramatically wi the conseestent application o ane or twa rules. Gin ye juist sayed "nae magic E, nae dooblt vowels" like A did in thon system o mines, ye'd be hauf roads tae reddin the hale midden! Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:12:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:12:18 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.10.01 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>Mathieu. van Woerkom" Subject: events Luc Hellinckx wrote: > For those of you that are interested in Brabantish, I'd like to point > out that a meeting will take place on the 12th of October 2002 in > Ternat ("De Ploter", Belgium). During this day (happening once in > every two years), many Brabantish topics will be dealt with, ranging > from purely linguistic to more "playful" ones. Also, it might be interesting for those same people: next friday, october 4th there will be a presentation of the new volume of the Dictionary of Brabantish Dialects (Woordenboek van de Brabantse Dialecten - http://www.kun.nl/dialect). It will be held in "de Ghulden Roos" in Roosendaal (Roozendaol, West-Brabant). For information, please contact dr. Jos Swanenberg at j.swanenberg at let.kun.nl . Regards, Mathieu ==================================END===================================* Please submit postings to .* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at .* Please use only Plain Text format, not Rich Text (HTML) or any other type of format, in your submissions================================================================= ====== From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:15:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:15:19 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>Mathieu. van Woerkom" Subject: events Luc Hellinckx wrote: > For those of you that are interested in Brabantish, I'd like to point > out that a meeting will take place on the 12th of October 2002 in > Ternat ("De Ploter", Belgium). During this day (happening once in > every two years), many Brabantish topics will be dealt with, ranging > from purely linguistic to more "playful" ones. Also, it might be interesting for those same people: next friday, october 4th there will be a presentation of the new volume of the Dictionary of Brabantish Dialects (Woordenboek van de Brabantse Dialecten - http://www.kun.nl/dialect). It will be held in "de Ghulden Roos" in Roosendaal (Roozendaol, West-Brabant). For information, please contact dr. Jos Swanenberg at j.swanenberg at let.kun.nl . Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:28:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:28:44 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] My father's family comes from the nowadays Kalinigrad Oblast as well, my father was born in a place called Abschwangen in German, Absvankiai in Lithuanian. I don't believe that my surname can tell much about the ethinc origions of my father's family, it just might have been given to them by Brandenburgian tax-collectors. The surrounding villages just as Abschwangen itself are derived from old-Prussian, therefore I can assume that many of the local families are of old-Prussian ancestory though, as in whole of East Prussia, the population was mixed with settlers from all parts of Western Europe, many of them arriving for religious reasons in East Prussia. One of my forefathers stems apparantly from Salzburg as many of them did, they were religous (protestant) refugees. My aunt still spoke the old East Prussian Low Saxon, some of the words and the accent they used derived from old Prussian, such as e.g "marjell" for girl. When I hear Latvians or Lithuanians speaking German it often reminds me to the way my aunt spoke German, the relationship is all too obvious. I cannot speak or imitate the old East Prussian Low Saxon since my father died when I was two years old and I was purely raised in the Low Saxon from the Rendsborg-district in Slesvig-Holsten and partly Danish through my mother's Danish relatives. By mentality and by the way they do things most of my father's relatives remind me how people are in Scandinavia, such as the people in the Baltic States are while Slavonic people from e.g Poland have a lot more temper than the Baltic people. ---------- From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2002.09.30 (05) [D] Beste mensen, Stefaan Vermeire reageerde uitgebreid op mijn antwoord op eerdere berichten van Luc Vanbra- bant & Simon Hoare. Ik kreeg bij het lezen van het antwoord van Stefaan sterk de indruk dat hij de context van mijn bericht, dat nadrukkelijk slechts een reactie is op een eerder schrijven van Luc & Simon, enigszins verkeerd begrepen heeft. Zoals ik Stefaan's bericht lees, heeft hij menen te moeten concluderen dat ik mij af wens te zetten tegen begrippen als 'Vlaams' en 'Vlaanderen' als paraplubegrippen voor respectievelijk de Germaanse taalvarianten van noord-Belgi? en het administratieve gebied waar deze varianten gesproken worden. Dat is onjuist. In mijn schrijven probeerde ik slechts aan te geven dat Simon, die eerder aangaf verbaasd te zijn over het feit dat de niet geheel verfranste Brusselaars zich afzet- ten tegen hun 'Vlaams-zijn', terwijl de zelfs geheel ver- franste inwoners van Lille/Rijssel hun Vlaamse af- komst niet onder stoelen of banken steken en de naam Vlaming zelfs als geuzennaam gebruiken. Welnu, in die context leek het mij relevant dat inwoners van een stad als Lille, immers van oudsher onderdeel van het graafschap Vlaanderen, zich deze historische reden wel- lichtm??r Vlaams voelen dan de Babrantse Brusselaars dat doen. Wanneer het dus gaat om het 'Vlaams gevoel', dat bij Rijsse- laars sterker zou leven dan bij Brusselaars (een stelling van Simon), is naar mijn mening de historische context belang- rijker dan de relatief recente (taal-)politieke ontwikkelingen wanneer men op zoek gaat naar een reden voor dat verschil in beleving. Enkele opmerkingen bij Stefaan's schrijven dan: ik schreef: > >Brussel een Vlaamse stad? Ik dacht dat de > >oorspronkelijke taal van deze stad zo Bra- > >bants is als Brabants maar zijn kan. Net als > >de inwoners. Het etiket 'Vlaams' (als verwar- > >rende benaming voor alles wat 'Nederlands- > >talig' is in Belgi?) in zijn (taal-)politieke con- > >text, dateert pas van na de belangrijkste fases > >van de verfransing van Brussel. Stefaan: > Dit is helemaal niet juist. Midden 19e eeuw is het woord "Vlaanderen" reeds > op een organische wijze ge?volueerd tot de betekenis die het in Belgi? tot > op de dag van vandaag heeft, nl. de verzamelnaam voor alle Nederlandstalige > gewesten van Belgi?. In die tijd was Brussel trouwens nog overwegend > bevolkt door Nederlandssprekenden, zoals de toenmalige talentellingen > aantonen. Pas veel later, rond het interbellum en vooral na WO II, > verfranst Brussel diepgaand; daarvoor was er slechts een zeer > oppervlakkige, uiterlijke verfransing. > Het lijkt me niet juist een betekenisevolutie te negeren of als > onhistorisch af te doen, daar waar ze daadwerkelijk heeft plaatsgegrepen. Indien het begrip Vlaanderen in de betekenis van het totaal van Nederlandstalige gebieden in Belgi? in het midden van de 19e eeuw al bekend was, dan wil dat nog niet zeggen dat het gewone volk (want daar hebben we het in dit verband vooral over; de beleving van het gewone volk) het begrip kende, gebruikte en omarmde. Ik durf te betwijfelen dat Nederlandstalige Brusselaars in de 19e eeuw zich Vlaming noemden. ik: > >Again, the people of Brussels simpy cannot > >feel themselves Flemings, because they aren't! Stefaan: > Larie. Historisch zijn de Sorben ook geen Duitsers; tegenwoordig echter > stelt geen enkele Sorb zijn Duits-zijn in vraag. Net zomin het overgrote > deel van de Friezen hun Nederlanderschap ontkennen. Larie? Maakt Brussel dan deel uit van het Vlaams gewest? En bovendien is nationaliteit nog altijd een federale en geen gewestelijke aangelegenheid. Uw eigen argument geeft dat overigens ook al duidelijk aan: een Sorb is een Duitser, een Fries Nederlander en Vlamingen, Brusselaars en Walen zijn voor zover ik weet nog altijd Belgen. Buitendien, de discussie ging over het 'Vlaams ge- voel' van Rijsselaars en Brusselaars. In dat verband is de politieke context van uw opmerking niet rele- vant. ik: > >When you look at this subject from the > >original, regional perspective, you'll see that > >terms like Brabantish, Limburgish and (out- > >side Belgium?) Flemish can most certainly do > >without linguistic 'do's and don'ts'. > >Again and again one realizes that choosing > >the names Flanders and Flemish for the whole > >of northern Belgium and all its germanic dialects > >and languages isn't a very happy choice at all. Stefaan: > Het was helemaal geen "keuze"; het is slechts het resultaat van een > evolutie. Is dat dan zo problematisch? Gaat u ook ten strijde trekken tegen > "Rusland" en "Russen", namen die historisch helemaal niet naar de Russen > verwezen, maar wel naar de middeleeuwse Scandinavische koninkrijken in de > streek van het huidige Oekra?ene? Of een land als "Frankrijk" dat zijn naam > al helemaal onterecht draagt ("Galli?" had beter gepast). En zo kunnen we > nog een tijdje doorgaan. Ok?, het was geen keuze. Maar dat maakt het nog altijd geen bijzonder handige benaming. Pas op, ik pleit absoluut niet voor de invoering van een andere naam voor Vlaanderen (van 'ten strijde trek- ken' is al helem??l geen sprake!). Ik geef slechts aan dat die evolutie voor wat betreft het onderwerp waar we het hier over hebben, namelijk de cultu- rele beleving van bewoners van een stad of streek, niet bepaald een nuttig begrip heeft opgeleverd. Leg een naam als 'Vlaams Brabant' maar eens uit aan een buitenstaander. Het gebied is van oorsprong Brabants, de cultuur is er Brabants, de taal is er Brabants en er is van oudsher op o.m. economisch vlak een gezonde rivaliteit geweest met Vlaanderen (in de betekenis van het oude graafschap Vlaanderen). Natuurlijke evolutie, akkoord, maar binnen het kader van de discussie die we hier voeren en sowieso binnen het kader van deze discussiegroep, levert de benaming wel enige complicaties op. Met groeten uit Zeeland, Marco ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Stefaan: > Larie. Historisch zijn de Sorben ook geen Duitsers; tegenwoordig echter > stelt geen enkele Sorb zijn Duits-zijn in vraag. Actually, in my experience (and I have asked some of them), Sorbs (Lusatians) consider themselves German nationals but ethnically Sorbian. A couple of years ago a speaker of a Sorbian muscial group introduced himself to the audience at a festival in Vancouver, B.C., with pretty much these words: "We are from Germany, but we are not real Germans. We belong to a tiny minority known as Sorbs." I believe most Frisians and Danes of Germany that are conscious of their identities make this distinction between nationality/citizenship and ethnicity as well. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:31:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:31:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Events" 2002.10.01 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: "Mathieu. van Woerkom" Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl>Mathieu. van Woerkom" Subject: events Luc Hellinckx wrote: > For those of you that are interested in Brabantish, I'd like to point > out that a meeting will take place on the 12th of October 2002 in > Ternat ("De Ploter", Belgium). During this day (happening once in > every two years), many Brabantish topics will be dealt with, ranging > from purely linguistic to more "playful" ones. Also, it might be interesting for those same people: next friday, october 4th there will be a presentation of the new volume of the Dictionary of Brabantish Dialects (Woordenboek van de Brabantse Dialecten - http://www.kun.nl/dialect). It will be held in "de Ghulden Roos" in Roosendaal (Roozendaol, West-Brabant). For information, please contact dr. Jos Swanenberg at j.swanenberg at let.kun.nl . Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 15:37:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 08:37:32 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Language preservation Fellow Lowlanders, First, my heartfelt thanks to those who answered my enquiry about the legend of the sunken town! On the subject of language survival, I have seen firsthand the impact of government attempts to kill, promote, favour and even impose language on populations with diverse attitudes. It is a very tricky business. In Canada, attempts to kill Gaelic and aboriginal languages were mostly successful in the past - to the point where present attempts at revival may be too little too late. Attempts to promote, favour or impose French have been sometimes successful, sometimes hopeless failures, and always deeply resented by a significant minority, and in some cases a clear majority of the population. I hope we will always remember that the survival of any language depends ultimately on the attitude of the young. If they want to speak it - for whatever reason - it will live - similarly - if they don't want to speak it - again for whatever reason - it will die. Young children who are well cared for and loved will tend to accept their parents' values and affirm them with pride. In teenage years, most will grow apart or rebel to varying degrees - and this is entirely normal and natural. Language policy must take these facts into account, as well as the biological need to be exposed to more than one language or dialect early in life to develop the neurological flexibility to learn more than one form of speech well. All too often, language policies end up like parents choosing their teenager's career without any knowledge of, or sincere enquiry as to their actual interests and desires. Even worse - like parental sponsorship of a potential boy or girlfriend - the kiss of death. Language preservation to work must be a popular youth movement first, accepted by government - but never portrayed as the older generation's dream for the young. Comics, music, film - whatever the vehicle of youth happens to be in the place and at the moment - is the key to success. If local young people don't have a major role in formulating local language policy its chances for success are dim. I have lived just long enough to see traditional folk music go from being very cool to being very uncool back to being very cool again. Don't give up - certainly not - but for heaven's sake don't start with the politicians and lawyers - they can always be dragged along later. Start with the kids - it is their brains and mouths which form the field on which the campaign will be won or lost! alle die beste George M. Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 20:23:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 13:23:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity" 2002.10.01 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (02) [D/E] Ro, Leeg- and Lowlanners, Ron schreev: > Actually, in my experience (and I have asked some of them), Sorbs > (Lusatians) consider themselves German nationals but ethnically Sorbian. A > couple of years ago a speaker of a Sorbian muscial group introduced himself > to the audience at a festival in Vancouver, B.C., with pretty much these > words: "We are from Germany, but we are not real Germans. We belong to a > tiny minority known as Sorbs." I believe most Frisians and Danes of Germany > that are conscious of their identities make this distinction between > nationality/citizenship and ethnicity as well. I don't think that there really is any "The German" at all. We must not forget, that Germany is a young and artificial construction; USA is much older than Germany! When I came back from visits of northern and southern America I firstly felt to be back in Europe- much more important than to be back in Germany! Of course I am German- but my main-roots are in my local region, local culture AND! language! And these are part of a European history, connected with all occidental cultures. Regards Fiete. (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." ("Iced Earth") ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 22:06:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:06:28 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] Ron, You answered me (following George Gibault): > I think what you are talking about are the Germanic dialect groups of > "Prussia" ("Western Prussia" and "Eastern Prussia"): Lowlands Saxon (Low > German): "West Prussian 'Platt'" (to which Mennonite Plautdietsch belongs) > and "East Prussian 'Platt' (with which your father and my paternal > grandmother grew up), and German: _Ostpreu?isch_ (a sub-group of > _Ostmitteldeutsch_). > > The language George was talking about was the *real* Prussian, the language > of the original Prussians who in German came to be called by their Old or > Middle German name _Pruzzen_ to distinguish them from the _Preu?en_, the > German power that had usurped their name. > > > He did never mention anything like that "Triglav" (UG: "Dreiglaube???"). > > That does not surprise me terribly if his field of interest was Germanic > culture and history.> Of course- I had been on the wrong track! A little bit outside of Lowland-Languages, as I find *s*. But- let's go on, if You do allow! On my mother's side of my ancestry there are people from the area "Wendland" (sorry- I don't know it in English), near the western side of the river Elbe, about 100 kilometres south-east of Hamburg, also former and still today partly Slavic. >By the time the area came to be well and truly settled (i.e., overrun and >occupied) by Germanic-speakers, the original religions ("paganism") of that >and other eastern regions, as well as those in the west, had become >outlawed. I do not need to elaborate on what the church did to people who >kept practicing their beliefs openly. Yes- and I do remember my mother talking about some very heathen customs even there, in the border region of the "Lueneburger Heide", near the town of Dannenberg. There were some very strange things still in use up to the early years of the 20th century. She told me, that pastors did whip them at their Sunday's sermons. (But- they were really barbarically, I have to confess). (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." ("Iced Earth") ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Fiete, Lowlanders, > Of course- I had been on the wrong track! A little bit outside of > Lowland-Languages, as I find *s*. Not really, considering that these are people, cultures and languages that came to be overlayed and absorbed by later Germanic-speaking settlers. Thus, along much of the southern Baltic Sea coast you have the succession Baltic (Prussian) > Slavonic (Pomeranian-Polabian) > Germanic (Saxon, German), not to speak of earlier East Germanic and pre-Indo-European peoples. All of the above are parts of your and my heritage and no doubt of other people's on this list (and on my maternal grandmother's side there is Germanized Sorbian heritage). This is not atypical of people in Germany, only that most of them don't know and don't care. > On my mother's side of my ancestry there are people from the area "Wendland" > (sorry- I don't know it in English), near the western side of the river > Elbe, about 100 kilometres south-east of Hamburg, also former and still > today partly Slavic. It is the area known as "Hannoversch(es) Wendland." _Wende_ (from "Vandal," originally a Germanic tribe that at one time settled in Central and Eastern Europe) is an old and now pretty much non-PC word for "Slav" (like _Welsch_ for "(Gallo-)Romance"). Bear in mind that at one time the Germanic-Slavonic borderline (with some overlap) ran from Holstein (even parts of Denmark), just east of Hamburg through parts of Bavaria all the way down to just west of Triest. The _Wendland_, like Lusatia (Sorb. _L/uz^ica_, Ger. _Lausitz_), were/are tiny Slavonic remnant enclaves. These were/are areas in which on German soil Slavonic is/was still spoken. However, these languages and cultures once occupied large tracts around these enclaves and have come to be embedded in the now "German" language and culture varieties of the areas. The Slavonic language of _Hannoversch Wendland_ was Polabian (< _po_ 'on', 'by', _L/aba_ 'Elbe'), specifically Draveno-Polabian (Ger. _Draw?(h)no-Polabisch_, from the area called _Draw?hn_). The last speaker died in 1799 or thereabouts, I believe. There are some written records of the language and of local customs. Already at that time, the language was rather strongly influenced by Lowlands Saxon (Low German), and apparently all or most people that spoke Draveno-Polabian could also speak LS. Here is the Lord's Prayer: Nos fader, t? t?i jis v? ne^bis'ai, sj?ta^ v?rda^ t?ji jaima^. T?ja^ rik koma^. T?ja^ vil'a^ s^in?t, kok v? ne^bis'ai, tok ka^k no zime^. Nose*j ve*se^danesna^ st'aibe^ doj-na^m dans. Un vite^doj-na^m nos grex, ka^k moi vite^dojime^ nose^m gresna^r?m. Un ni brind'oj nos k? fars?kkon'e^, t?i l?zoj nos vit ve*soka^g x'auda^g. Amen e^ = e-breve a^ = a-breve e* = e-dot n' = n-acute s' = s-acute Note the LS loans: brind'... < bring... 'bring' fader < fader ~ vader 'father' fars?kon... < vars?kung(e) 'temptation' koma^ < kame ~ kome '(shall) come' l?z... < l?sen 'release' rik < r?k 'realm' v?rda^ < word(e) ~ ward(e) '(shall) be(come)' vil'a^ < will(e) 'will' Also, note the fronted (umlauted) vowels! I do not know of any study that points out Draveno-Polabian influences on the local Germanic varieties. Does anyone else? > Yes- and I do remember my mother talking about some very heathen customs > even there, in the border region of the "Lueneburger Heide", near the town > of Dannenberg. There were some very strange things still in use up to the > early years of the 20th century. She told me, that pastors did whip them at > their Sunday's sermons. > > (But- they were really barbarically, I have to confess). That was not anything ethnically specific but was part and parcel of living in another time, when what we now consider "abuse" was considered "education." I have heard many such stories from elders of several different ethnic backgrounds. During confirmation lessons, the pastor would slap my grandmother incessantly on the hands with a cane or ruler because she did not hold her book or pen straight. Her hands were crippled with rheumatoid arthritis from childhood (and she was in pain all her life), of which he was aware, but it was more important to him to set an example. Those were the days ... Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.29 (02) [D/E] Hi Lowlanders, I feel that considering Ole Stig Andersen?s message (I leave it in this mail in its entirety, so there are no mistakes) we can put to rest any speculations that our LLlgs might survive or even stay largely intact during this century. It?s true Klaus Groth?s prediction that L-Saxon would not survive HIS century WAS pessimistic. But how the world has changed since then, generalised schooling for children, spread of newspapers, then radio, then television, then internet, only a homoeopathic minority of children learning the language(s) - if the patient has lost his will to live (nothwithstanding a handful of Lowlanders that we are, 0.001% of the Lowlands` population) you might as well forget him. Unless some revolutionising event such as the advent of television will happen, going in the opposite direction, our LL activities as laudable as they are, will remain largely an academic delight. Now if you think I?m pessimistic, read on! Mike Wintzer > From: Ole Stig Andersen > Subject: Future? (was: "History") > > I wrote > > > 90% of the World's around 6.000 languages are moribund and will disappear > > within this century, according to the estimates of Michael Krauss. I'm > > afraid a number of Lowlands languages are among them. > > Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] replied, among other things > > > Like most "futurology" such estimates tend to turn out to be nonsense. > > Prediction over prediction, huh? > > Though I would love it to have been the case, I'm afraid that a general > mistrust of "futurology" is not quite up to the task as far as the World > Wide Language Death that we are currently experiencing is concerned. At > present humanity is losing lgs to the tune of 1- one - a week > > (The latest high-profile case I've come across is Kakadu (Gagadju/Gagudju), > a North Australian lg that died May 23rd 2002 together with it's last > speaker, Big Bill Neidjie. The minutes of the Condolence Motion carried in > the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly are published here: > http://www.icomos.org/australia/images/pdf/Big_Bill.pdf ) > > A lg faces an assortment of challenges on its fall to extinction, among > which are: > > -. Reduction of morphological complexity > -. Loss of function domains, ending up with only ritual/religious functions > -. The mean age of the users/speakers rise over time > -. The new generation doesn't learn the lg. > -. The number of speakers dwindle until > - the lg is only spoken/remembered by a few elderly people > And more could be added > > I would surmise that a lg that is no longer acquired by children is > moribund. This is the case for more than a thousand of the world's lgs > today. Hundreds of lgs TODAY are only spoken by 1-2-5 old people. > > Commissioned by UNESCO in 1991 the eskimologist Michael Krauss of Fairbanks > Univ, Alaska, did not base his estimate of impending lg mass death on some > fancy private catastrophism. He based it on the known number of lgs not > transferred to or used by the new generations. > > > The death of Scots within a generation or two has been > > predicted for almost as long as the language has existed. > > Citing Scots as a counterexample to the global trend of Massive Language > Extinction, is a bit like claiming that New Guinea birds of paradise can't > be endangered since there are lots of sparrows in my garden. > > Some of the Lowlands lgs are among the world's largest, obviously alfa-lgs > like English, Dutch and Afrikaans, but also Scots, which has an estimated > (depending on your ideology of what constitutes a lg vs a dialect) more than > 1 million speakers, though hardly in all domains. > > If we say, for convenience of calculation, that there is 6 bn people and > 6.000 lgs, then a lg has in average 1 mio speakers, and Scots is above that > level. Together with only a few hundred other lgs. The vast majority of the > world's lgs have far below the world average of speakers, many hundreds only > af few hundred. > > The level of endangerment of any lg should primarily be gauged by the age > distribution of its speakers, secondarily by the absolute size of the speech > community and thirdly by the range of domains in which it can be used. > (Maybe 2 and 3 should change place.) > > What do we know about the age distribution of the speakers of beta-lgs that > are of this list's interest?: > Ap=Appalachian > B=Brabantish > F=Frisian > L=Limburgish > LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) > S=Scots > Sh=Shetlandic > V=(West)Flemish > Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) > > The indigeneous lgs of North America, Australia, the Soviet Union have been > effectively eradicated in less than 200 years, mainly through warfare, > deprivation of livelihood, forced (and voluntary) migrations, missionary and > school policies, and kidnapping of children (boarding schools and adoption > schemes). Such processes are still in full swing. > > New Guinea still has an astounding 1100 or so lgs, one sixth of the Worlds's > stock, but they are all so small and under such ferocious attack by the > local versions of international civilisation, that just a handfuld or two of > them can be expected to survive this century. In Africa wars and famines > have had and will have a decastating effect on amultitude of lgs. All over > the Third World urban centres grow unchecked and draw "weak" lgs into > uselessnes and oblivion. > etc Indonesia, etc India, etc Africa, etc Latin America, etc ... > > The proces of losing lingustic diversity can possibly be counteracted in > some pockets, if the speakers "decide" to maintain (i.e. use) their lg, AND > if they have the means to do it. > > As this list itself bears witness to, the Internet is a marvellous > instrument for storing and sharing knowledge and bringing otherwise small > and isolated groups of people and interests together, and it is possible > that such larger virtual communities will be able to keep this or that > endangered lg alive against odds. Unfortunately the Internet is not > accessible where most of the language eradication is taking place. But in > some pockets it is: > > Gaelic might turn out to be such an example, though I doubt it. It is spoken > by about 60.000 mainly elderly people at the fringes of Scottish economy. > Though Gaelic enjoys considerable public respect, funding and promotion, it > is not taught much to children and cannot be used much for economic > purposes. Thus I think that even this nurtured endangered lg has very hard > times ahead. > > And from a diversity point of view I think that the likely loss of Gaelic is > a far greater impoverishment than the far less likely loss of, say, Scots, > would be (no offense ;-), since ALL the Celtic lgs are endangered. > > Michael Krauss' prediction was that the next millennium may see as few as > 600 living lgs left on Earth. Some experts are more pessimistic, others > less, but no estimate leaves any doubt that we are entering an age of > massive unprecedented destruction of the most fundamental part of World > Heritage, the lingustic diversity. > > Strangely, the current catastrophe - whatever it's exact extent may be - has > not attracted much attention in the linguist community. At least not until > recently. But now the British Lisbet Rausing Charitable Foundation has given > ? 20 million over 10 years creating the Endangered Languages Documentation > Project (ELDP) at School of Oriental and African Studies in London. > (http://www.eldp.soas.ac.uk) > > The massive donation, which is said to be among the largest in Humanities > ever, envisages to describe a total of 100 dying lgs, about a third of the > number of lgs Krauss' predicts will disappear in the same period. Each lg > will be described at at price of ? 150,000 a piece. But certainly not saved! > > It is characteristic of the shallow public AND professional understanding of > the problem that even serious media like Scientific American and The > Guardian have hailed the Rausing donation as a measure against Langauge > Death. That it not the case at all, the donation specifies expressly that > only lgs with a few speakers left are to be studied. > > Similarly this year the German Volkswagenstiftung donated 3,5 mio Euro f?r > die Dokumentation bedrohter Sprachen, maninly to the establishment of > Archives on endangered languages at the Max-Planck-Institut f?r > Psycholinguistik in Nijmegen. > > Also the scholarly literature is growing, e.g.: > > R.M.W Dixon: The Rise and Fall of Languages, Cambridge University Press, > 1997 (especially about the Australian lgs) > > David Crystal: Language Death, Cambridge University Press, 2000 > > Andrew Dalby: Language in Danger. How language loss threatens our future. > Allen Lane The Penguin Press, 2002 (Includes very interesting descriptions > of lg death in Ancient and Classical Europe, Latins advance etc.) > > And there are some places on the WWW, e.g. > > Terralingua: Partnerships for Linguistic & Biological Diversity > http:/www.terralingua.org > > Foundation For Endangered Languages, http://www.ogmios.org/ > > The Endangered Languages Fund, http://sapir.ling.yale.edu/~elf/index.html > > Ole Stig Andersen > http://www.olestig.dk/sprogpolitik ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 22:09:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:09:14 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.29 (02) [D/E] hi Lowlanders, A short while ago someone (cannot find the message back) suggested that Scots, rather than having been derived from English on a Gaelic/Norse substrate, might have evolved rather independently and in parallel with English from the languages of the early Anglo-Saxon invaders. I?ve had now for a few months my first real exposure - through reading LL postings - to written Scots, and I find about the same degree of Latin (Norman) superstrate in Scots as in English. Shouldn?t one expect rather less Normannic words in Scots than in English if the a.m. supposition was true? Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 22:12:02 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:12:02 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut BrowneK at brevard.k12.fl.us Subject: language survival Ron wrote: This is what in my experience most people in the States assume when I talk with them about it. The sad truth is that it is *not* far removed from them at all, that this sort of thing is not only happening in faraway countries but, at a probably faster rate than in Europe, under their very own noses. The indigenous languages of the Americas, especially of the United States, are disappearing at an alarming rate. I recently wrote about this. (http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0208D&L=lowlands-l&P=R902 ) In your very own state, Florida, there are several severely endangered (mostly Seminole) language varieties; e.g., Language: Speakers: Muskokee (Creek) 6,213 (*including* those of Oklahoma and Alabama) Mikasuki/Miccosuki 496 Many are extinct (e.g., Apalachee, Hitchiti and Taino), and the Taino plan to revive theirs by reconstructing it from records. Please take a look at a list of surviving languages and the numbers of their speakers in the United States: http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~jcamacho/363/nativetoday.htm Note that there are still 10 speakers of Makah on that list. Meanwhile there is none ... Regards, Reinhard/Ron Ow Ron! I was writing about the lowlands languages, but your point is taken. I have looked at the list you sent. Very interesting. Even though I have not really had an interest in this languages your e-mail has piqued my interest. Time is a factor and sometimes money, but I want to look into more now after your "encouragement." Perhaps I'm thinking too "lowlands-egocentrically." (my own word) thanks, Kevin Browne Titusville, Florida ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 1 22:37:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2002 15:37:15 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 01.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Here is another version of the Draveno-Polabian Lord's Prayer: N??e Wader, ta toy gi? wa Nebisg?y, Sjungta woarda t?g? Geima, tia R?k komma, tia Willia schiny?t, kok wa Nebisg?y, t?k kak no Sime, N??i wi?edanneisna Stgeiba doy n?m d?ns, un wittedoy n?m n??e Ggr?ch, kak moy wittedoyime n??em Gr?smarim, Ni bringoy n?s ka Warsik?nye, tay l?so?y n?s wit wi??kak Chaudak. Amen. http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/idg/slav/polabbs.htm And I forgot one of the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loans: un < un 'and' Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 14:29:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:29:53 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Virus warning" 2002.10.02 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim wkv at home.nl Subject: Viruswaarschuwing! >From : W!M wkv at home.nl www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/ Hoi, Hier is weer eens een berichtje in het nederlands.... Allemaal weer even opletten voor verkeerde e-m?hl, junkmail. Er waart weer eens een nieuw virus door Cyberi?... Groeten uit Zwolliewood! Wim. [Wim Verdoold] p.s. Subject: Viruswaarschuwing! ==================================================================== 30 september 2002 VirusAlert: W32.Bugbear-A (Tanatos) : gevaarlijk (39/100) ==================================================================== Informatiepagina op de website van VirusAlert: http://www.virusalert.nl/?show=virus&id=341 Bugbear is een mass-mailer internetworm die zich onder sterk wisselende eigenschappen kan verspreiden. Tevens bezit het een backdoor component waardoor de virusschrijver c.q. hacker in staat is om creditcard-details, wachtwoorden en andere gegevens opgeslagen op het systeem te ontvreemden. Het maakt voor de verspreiding gebruik van e-mail. Doordat het virus gebruik maakt van het MIME-exploit in Outlook (Zie hieronder) kan het bij niet gepatchte systemen automatisch worden geactiveerd. (In andere gevallen kan het ge-activeerd worden door het bijlagebestand handmatig te openen.) Payload/Schade * Uitschakeling van bepaalde security- c.q. antivirussoftware. * Installatie van een backdoor component. (Toegang voor virusschrijver tot uw systeem.) * Verspreiding op tamelijk intelligente wijze, waardoor herkenning lastig is. * Installatie van een aantal bestanden op uw systeem, inclusief een verwijzing vanuit de registry. * Doorzending van het virusbestand richting alle aanwezig berichten in "Postvak IN" & verzending naar andere in bestanden opgeslagen e-mailadressen. http://www.virusalert.nl/?show=link&id=asap_tekst =============================================================== Met vriendelijke groeten, VirusAlert redactie. ====================| www.VirusAlert.info |============================ VirusAlert is een onafhankelijke Nederlandse organisatie die informatie van veiligheidsexperts en antivirusfabrikanten samenbrengt en kwalificeert. Door de merkonafhankelijkheid slaat VirusAlert een brug tussen de verschillende antiviruslaboratoria en kan zij deze gebundelde kennis zeer snel aan haar abonnees ter beschikking stellen. Op dit gebied is de organisatie toonaangevend. (c) 2002 VirusAlert.info - GRATIS NIEUWSBRIEF - Oplage ruim 47.000 Verspreiding van nieuwsbrief wordt aangeboden door M+ Group. http://www.mplus.net. ================================================================= - Uw abonnement aanpassen, de-activeren? Ga naar www.virusalert.info en kies voor "inloggen". - Mocht u uw wachtwoord vergeten zijn dan kunt u deze hier per e-mail laten toezenden. ---------- From: Wim wkv at home.nl Subject: Virus Alert - WORM_BUGBEAR.A >From W!M wkv at home.nl www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/ Here is a warning in English too: Subject: Medium Risk Virus Alert - WORM_BUGBEAR.A Dear Lowlanders: This worm terminates antivirus processes and propagates by sending itself via email using its own SMTP (Simple Mail Transfer Protocol) engine. The email that it sends out contains no message body and uses any of the following as its subject: $150 FREE Bonus! 25 merchants and rising Announcement bad news CALL FOR INFORMATION! click on this! Confirmation of Recipes. Correction of errors Daily Email Reminder empty account fantastic free shipping! Get 8 FREE issues - no risk! Get a FREE gift! Greets! hello! history screen hmm.. I need help about script!!! Interesting... Introduction its easy Just a reminder Lost & Found Market Update Report Membership Confirmation My eBay ads New bonus in your cash account New Contests new reading Payment notices Please Help... Report SCAM alert!!! Sponsors needed Stats Today Only Tools For Your Online Business update various Warning! Your Gift Your News Alert The email attachment may be one of these: Setup.exe 3 July 2002.doc.pif It spoofs the FROM field of the email that it sends out while the TO field contains addresses found in the Windows Address Book (WAB). This worm exploits a known vulnerability on systems with unpatched Internet Explorer 5.01 and 5.5, which automatically runs the executable file attachment when the email message is previewed or opened in Microsoft Outlook and Outlook Express. For more information on WORM_BUGBEAR.A please visit our Web site at: http://www.trendmicro.com/vinfo/virusencyclo/default5.asp?VName=WORM_BUG BEAR.A so, now we all know about it! Wim. [Wim Verdoold] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 14:32:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:32:24 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity" 2002.10.02 (02) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Ethnicity" 2002.10.01 (04) [E] Daar kann ik di man blot recht geven, Fiete, so se ik dat ok liggers dat natuerli lang Tied versoecht woerden is een exklusive duetsche national-identitaet optobuen, een darvun is bekanntli to Ind broecht worden in 1945. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 14:45:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 07:45:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (03) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: Fiete schreef: in 't Hauchduetsche hefft wi keen Woord foer "laptop", un dat hett woll sien gauden Grund Hebt wi Fiete: Scho?rechner. Kumpelmenten, Mike Wintzer ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Tjer, denn schull dat in use Spraak sachs "Schootrekener" heten, or amenn direktemang uut 't Ingelsche: "Schoottopprekener" > kort "Schoottopp", wenn dat elk een so doon kann as se 't in 't neeste W??rbook daan hebbt. :-] (Mehr daar vun later.) Kumpelmenten ook vun mi (ofschoonst mit 'n hojappen Muul so fr?h an d'n Morgens)! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 15:26:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:26:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] Hi Ron, hi George, hi all Lowlanders, If I may summarize Ron?s answer to my (admittedly) militant call for action: Lots of good people do lots of good things behind the scenes for our languages. (I agree.) There are lots of more good things we, you, me, everyone can do, should do (I agree.) Languages have, and always will, emerge, florish, change, deteriorate, die - it?s a fact of life. (I agree.) My point though was that nowadays, in the age of universal human rights, these processes are FORCED upon us with a violence hitherto unheard of, at least in the area of languages. A sovereign even as late as the 18th or 19th century in general didn?t care too much what his subject spoke. Yes, I agree, all through the age evolution took its course. Sometimes evolution was violent. But, the systematic, state-ordered violence towards languages (and the cultures they carry) is a recent phenomenon, triggered by the emergence of the so-called "nation" states. I was raped, culturally, linguisticly, when I was denied access to my culture, deprived of my childhood language, and a foreign language was forced upon me for the rest of my days. I feel that I was denied a basic Human Right. And that?s what my militant feelings are directed to. If I belonged to an ethnie, there clearly was ethnocide. George Gibault writes: "...don't start with the politicians and lawyers..." Whom else can I address my grievances about state-ordered violence to but to state institutions, the justice system in this case? What are the alternatives? Extra-judicial (but for heaven?s sake no violent) actions, I proposed some in my posting. George continues: "Start with the kids - it is their brains and mouths which form the field on which the campaign will be won or lost!" And: "If local young people don't have a major role in formulating local language policy its chances for success are dim." Right you are George, oh so right! If you knock someone down in the street and police arrives, can you point to him and say: "Look he doesn?t even WANT to get up." Who was there when little Mike Wintzer was a receptive kid??? The almighty state with its mandatory school system that knew (and still does know) only one language - its own official "national" language, foreign to the land. Who gave young Mike a chance to "formulate local language policies"?? Better late than never, now he wants his voice to be heard. And I am sure that many of the Lowlanders, if they look at it this way, if they really become aware of their ethnic affiliation and what happened to it, will want their voices to be heard , too. That was the sense of my wake-up call. Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (07) [E] Hi all, What Kevin mentions there is an interesting phenomenon. He is deeply involved in our list and its languages, but concedes not (yet I hope) having giving much thought to the languages in his own FL. This reminds me 1. of a man named Kremnitz, a brilliant scholar of the Occitan language. He was (still is, I met him 30 years ago when I got first interested in Occitan) professor at the University of M?nster (Westphalia). When I asked him about the respective positions of Occitan vis-?-vis French and L-Saxon (platt I said in those days) vis-?-vis German, I drew a complete blank, and I found impossible to make him understand what I was talking about. 2. A bit further back in time still, of myself. When I first came to Occitania and discovered the language, it took me some time (albeit only a few days) to start drawing the parallels with my own tongue. Like Kevin, I clearly saw what was the situation of another "minority" language, but failed to grasp, at first, the situation in my own home country. Tsch??, Mike ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.01 (05) [E] Thank you all for your enlightening discussions about the Baltic/Slavonic/Germanic interactions. I learnt a lot I didn?t know about my former close neighbors. Now can anyone enlighten me on this: Does the name "Russia" have anything to do with "Prussia", etymologically speaking? I remember from my childhold the word "Reu?en" which sounded like "Preu?en" without the P. Cannot recall at all what "Reu?en" .was used for. Tsch??, Mike ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Mike, I'm sure other have more enlightening things to say about the name "Russian," but let me just quickly add that _russ_ or something of the sort started off being the name for Swedes, or at least for the tribe of Vikings from somewhere in Sweden that navigated the rivers of Russia and Ukraine all the way down to Byzantine Constantinopel (today's Istanbul). First they traded and established settlements along the way (and this is why Arabic coins of that time were unearthed in many parts of Eastern Europe, Northern Germany and Scandinavia). Then, according to old Scandinavian sources, the local Slavs "asked us to come and rule over them" (which I take with a huge grain of salt). The ruling class of those area thus consisted largely of Scandinavians for a while, and they were eventually absorbed into the general population. Unearthed Viking settlements and boats, personal names such as Ol'ga (< Helga), and the ethnonym "Russ" are among traces of their one-time presence. The Finnic peoples of the Baltic Sea region (who also call Germany "Saxony") still call Swedes and Sweden by this old name: Swede/Swedish Sweden German Germany Russian Russia Finnish: ruotsalainen Ruotsi saksalainen Saksa ven?l?inen Ven?j? Karelian: ? ? ? ? ? ? Estonian: rootslane Rootsi sakslane Saksa venelane Venemaa (?) Livonian: ? ? ? ? ? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 15:28:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:28:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.09.25 (07) [E] >From: Thomas Byro >Subject: Festivals/songs > >We had a local festival in the Rahden area, Suenematen (please pardon >spellings). It was much like Halloween with the difference that we hollowed >out a turnip called a Kuerbis, rather than a pumpkin, and carved out a >frightening face, put a lit candle in it and put it out. We would also go >from house to house, singing a song. It began "Suenematen, Gauematen--" but >I forgot how it went on, and we would get treats. This festival clearly has >the same origins as Halloween and probably goes back to when the area was >Keltic. I have never met abyone from Germany who has heard of this >festival. Was it a local festival,found only in the Rahden area? Does >anyone know the song? > >Another festival involved people dancing around a bonfire at night. Couples >would then jump over the fire hand in hand. Something very similar is >described in Gerhard Herm's book, The Kelts. In his version though, the >couples would have sex in the fields after jumping over the fire. I don't >think anything like that took place in my area but who knows? > >Tom Hello Tom ! In Eastern Friesland we have a festival called >Su"nnermarten<. The word simply means >Saint Martin<. It is on November 10th. Being genuine St. Martin's day (11. November) it is associated with the birthday of the church-reformer Martin Luther in protestant areas. Traditionally children carrying >kipkapko"o"gels< = lanterns (often hand-made from paper or small pumpkins [German: Ku"rbis]) walk from house to house singing songs referring to Martin Luther or religious things and receive gifts (sweets, chocolade or more traditional >pe:perno"o"ten< [gingernuts] and apples) from the people. Many children also disguise and carry >sghabellenskoppen< [masks]. Thus there is some similarity with halloween. In former times November 11th was the day when taxes had to be payed, farm- workers were set free from their contacts and livestock was fetched off the pastures. A day life became much harder for many people and a tradition of begging for provisional stock also lives on in the tradition explained above. On the other hand the song You mentioned reminds me to a song that is associated with >Su"nnerklo??s< = St. Nikolaus-day (December 6th.). I'll look whether I can find out the text and post it later. There are many fire-festivals all over Europe. In Eastern Friesland the most famous is >po??skefu"er< (Easter-fire) which is held at Saturday before Easter. In single areas there is a tradition of jumping over the fire when it is already low but these are exceptions. There are other traditions of fire-jumping mostly with the so called >Johannisfeuer< in May. We haven't them in Eastern Friesland but in other regions You can find frequent examples. They are spring-rites and always associated with fertility of nature, crops, livestock and even humans. In some areas the jumping over the fire of a couple means a promise of marriage. Kind regards Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 15:29:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 08:29:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.09.25 (07) [E] >From: Thomas Byro >Subject: Festivals/songs > >We had a local festival in the Rahden area, Suenematen (please pardon >spellings). It was much like Halloween with the difference that we hollowed >out a turnip called a Kuerbis, rather than a pumpkin, and carved out a >frightening face, put a lit candle in it and put it out. We would also go >from house to house, singing a song. It began "Suenematen, Gauematen--" but >I forgot how it went on, and we would get treats. This festival clearly has >the same origins as Halloween and probably goes back to when the area was >Keltic. I have never met abyone from Germany who has heard of this >festival. Was it a local festival,found only in the Rahden area? Does >anyone know the song? > >Another festival involved people dancing around a bonfire at night. Couples >would then jump over the fire hand in hand. Something very similar is >described in Gerhard Herm's book, The Kelts. In his version though, the >couples would have sex in the fields after jumping over the fire. I don't >think anything like that took place in my area but who knows? > >Tom Hello Tom ! In Eastern Friesland we have a festival called >Su"nnermarten<. The word simply means >Saint Martin<. It is on November 10th. Being genuine St. Martin's day (11. November) it is associated with the birthday of the church-reformer Martin Luther in protestant areas. Traditionally children carrying >kipkapko"o"gels< = lanterns (often hand-made from paper or small pumpkins [German: Ku"rbis]) walk from house to house singing songs referring to Martin Luther or religious things and receive gifts (sweets, chocolade or more traditional >pe:perno"o"ten< [gingernuts] and apples) from the people. Many children also disguise and carry >sghabellenskoppen< [masks]. Thus there is some similarity with halloween. In former times November 11th was the day when taxes had to be payed, farm- workers were set free from their contacts and livestock was fetched off the pastures. A day life became much harder for many people and a tradition of begging for provisional stock also lives on in the tradition explained above. On the other hand the song You mentioned reminds me to a song that is associated with >Su"nnerklo??s< = St. Nikolaus-day (December 6th.). I'll look whether I can find out the text and post it later. There are many fire-festivals all over Europe. In Eastern Friesland the most famous is >po??skefu"er< (Easter-fire) which is held at Saturday before Easter. In single areas there is a tradition of jumping over the fire when it is already low but these are exceptions. There are other traditions of fire-jumping mostly with the so called >Johannisfeuer< in May. We haven't them in Eastern Friesland but in other regions You can find frequent examples. They are spring-rites and always associated with fertility of nature, crops, livestock and even humans. In some areas the jumping over the fire of a couple means a promise of marriage. Kind regards Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 20:18:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:18:00 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Language survival Beste li?glanners, Recently I've been reading all kinds of declarations about the linguistic character of Brussels that somehow managed to stir my mind. It goes without saying (but not without writing maybe *s*) that Brabantish has always been the main language of Brussels (and Antwerp and Den Bosch and Leuven) until the late 19th century. Surely there were pockets of "high class people" that spoke French, but 99 % of the local population spoke plain Brabantish. Even in the so called "Marolles". Also bear in mind that Flemish on the other hand has always suffered much more influence from French than Brabantish. France used to have a very tight grip on the county of Flanders for centuries and centuries, and this shows...still today, if one takes into account the sometimes overly sensitive reactions of many a Fleming that would qualify himself a "flamingant". Those among you, who do not know how such a person is perceived by "les francophones", should listen to a song by Jacques Brel titled "Les F-". In order to give you an idea of how thoroughly "unfrench" (and also "unflemish") popular language still was somewhere around 1860 in Brussels, I will now quote the lemma "dietsch" from a dictionary that was roughly written between 1850 and 1882 by the Brabantish priest L.W. Schuermans : >DIETSCH, bijv. en z. nw. Dit is de echte algemeene naam onzer taal, nog zeer in Br., Antw. en Limb. in voege om de vlaamsche of nederduitsche of nederlandsche spraak aan te duiden. De Brusselaar spreekt "disch", "plat-tisch", met den duitschen sch-klank, uit; door "dosch" verstaat hij hoogduitsch. Te Leuv. en omstr. zegt men niet "diets" maar "duts", even als in Limb. en dat bet. hetzelfde als in 't engl. "dutch", d.i. vlaamsch of nederduits; om het hgd. aan te duiden zegt men in Br. "duitsch", of "deutsch" (met korten eu-klank) en "duitsch" of "hoogduts", "hoogdutsch" (sch uitgespr. als in 't hgd.) in Limb. But then things changed...very rapidly...By the end of the 19th century, more and more (Belgian) people found Brussels to be very attractive and a huge influx was taking place...many of them were Flemings and soon they abandoned their native language...no doubt because French was fashionable (in more than one sense) and if you wanted to get a job in the city, Flemish, Brabantish or Limburgish was much less useful. On a more positive note, French was the "lingua franca" that united people from West-Vlaanderen and Limburg and Luxemburg in this young kingdom. At the same time people all over the northern part of Belgium started reacting and demanded more rights for their community...in those days even the university of Ghent for example was not yet "dutch-speaking", and sure enough the ongoing battle (then !) had valid reasons in my opinion. Because "their enemy", so to speak, was common, both Flemish, Brabantish and Limburgish people kind of unified their forces and chose to be labelled "Flemish" ("Vlaamse Beweging"), but linguistically speaking this was incorrect. "Eendracht maakt macht" and "Het doel heiligt de middelen", you know. *s* Up till this day though, people from the provinces of Vlaams-Brabant (wrong name actually, but another name would be untranslatable in French because "francophones" make little or no distinction between people living north of the linguistic border) and Antwerp and Noord-Brabant (and especially dutch-speaking people from Brussels !) do not consider themselves very much "Vlaams". Yes they do if they have to show their profile towards an outsider living far away (the words Flanders, Flemish and Fleming are better known in English than any other words derived from Brabant for that matter), but within a Benelux-context history still plays a (minor) role. In my version of Brabantish for example we'll say that we speak sort of "Vloms" ~ "Vlaams" (D), yet people from the two provinces of Flanders speak "Vlojners" ~ "Vlaanders", which is quite different. We'll also rarely qualify ourselves as being "ne Vl?mink" ~ "een Vlaming" (D), and the term "ne Vlojnereir" ~ "een Vlaanderaar" is certainly exclusively used for people living in the old county of Flanders. The difference in "heimatgef?hl" between Flemings and Brabantians (don't even know whether this word exists *s*) is also quite obvious when you take a look at the distribution of Belgian family names on the following site : http://geonome.metaphor.be/cgi-bin/geonome.pl People from Brabant are known as "De Brabander(e)" in Flanders, but not in their homelands of course, whereas Flemings are not only called "Vleminckx" outside Flanders, but apparently they even use the name "Vlaeminck" within their homelands...judge for yourself... This rivalry between the county of Flanders and the duchy of Brabant used to be much more outspoken in the past (resulting in a series of war-like battles because "Vlaanderen" and "Brabant" were both trying to expand eastwards), but slowly this seems to fade, as younger people are focussing less and less inside their communities and tend to broaden their horizons. In Brussels itself however, this anti-Flemish, anti-"Hollands" and anti-German(ic) resentment can still be felt; and so, if anything, dutch-speaking folk there, often consider themselves "Brussels" in the first place, "Brabants" in the second, and "European" in the third. Off the record, I'm not "Brussels" myself. Briefly, imho Marco Evenhuis got it completely right in his last message. Voila *s*, my two cents ... next one, please... Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] At 23:09 01/10/02, Mike Wintzer wrote: >hi Lowlanders, >A short while ago someone (cannot find the message back) suggested that >Scots, rather than having been derived from English on a Gaelic/Norse >substrate, might have evolved rather independently and in parallel with >English from the languages of the early Anglo-Saxon invaders. I?ve had now >for a few months my first real exposure - through reading LL postings - to >written Scots, and I find about the same degree of Latin (Norman) >superstrate in Scots as in English. Shouldn?t one expect rather less >Normannic words in Scots than in English if the a.m. supposition was true? Not at all. Indeed, for centuries Scotland and France not only were allies against their common enemy, England, but also traded with each other a great deal, and so one might even expect to see *more*. It's certainly true that Scots has a range of vocabulary derived from French, that isn't found in English. Some examples are _rooser_ (arrosoir), _pell-mell_ (p?le-m?le), _groset_ (groseille), _gigot_, _gibbet_ (gibet), _ashet_ (assiete), and there are more. Goodwill to all, Colin Wilson. ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (02) [D/E] Lowlands-L heeft op dinsdag, 1 okt 2002 om 17:28 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > From: Marco Evenhuis > Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2002.09.30 (05) [D] > > Beste mensen, > > Stefaan Vermeire reageerde uitgebreid op mijn > antwoord op eerdere berichten van Luc Vanbra- > bant & Simon Hoare. Ik kreeg bij het lezen van > het antwoord van Stefaan sterk de indruk dat hij > de context van mijn bericht, dat nadrukkelijk slechts > een reactie is op een eerder schrijven van Luc & Simon, > enigszins verkeerd begrepen heeft. > Zoals ik Stefaan's bericht lees, heeft hij menen te > moeten concluderen dat ik mij af wens te zetten > tegen begrippen als 'Vlaams' en 'Vlaanderen' als > paraplubegrippen voor respectievelijk de Germaanse > taalvarianten van noord-Belgi? en het administratieve > gebied waar deze varianten gesproken worden. Dat is > onjuist. > In mijn schrijven probeerde ik slechts aan te geven > dat Simon, die eerder aangaf verbaasd te zijn over het > feit dat de niet geheel verfranste Brusselaars zich afzet- > ten tegen hun 'Vlaams-zijn', terwijl de zelfs geheel ver- > franste inwoners van Lille/Rijssel hun Vlaamse af- > komst niet onder stoelen of banken steken en > de naam Vlaming zelfs als geuzennaam gebruiken. Misschien splijt ik hier wind, maar de Vlaamse naam voor Lille is Rijsel, met ??n s. Voor de inwoners gebruiken wij al altijd de naam 'Rijselnaars' maar daar kan ik niet met 100% zekerheid zeggen dat het taalkundig correct is. Rijsel en Lille zijn trouwens etymologisch van hetzelfde woord afkomstig: insula werd " ter isla "(V) en "l'isla"(Frans) Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (04) [D/E] Lowlands-L heeft op maandag, 30 sep 2002 om 20:26 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > From: W. Jaap Engelsman > Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.29 (02) [D/E] > > Beste Laaglanders, > > Luc Vanbrabant schreef: > >> Perhaps it would be interesting to send to our Lowland site all the >> French words who are derived from one of the lowland tongues. > > Maar laten we niet vergeten dat er op dit gebied al veel werk verzet > is. In > het reuzenwerk van W. von Wartburg, "Franz?sisches etymologisches > W?rterbuch" (1928-), zijn de delen 15-17 gewijd aan "Die germanischen > Elemente". > > Een zeer interessante analyse van de sporen van de Oudnederlandse > woordenschat in het Frankisch is te vinden in: Nicoline van der Sijs, > "Chronologisch woordenboek" (2001), hoofdstuk 2.2. > > Jaap Engelsman Dag Jaap, Inderdaad, het chronologisch woordenboek geeft ons een interessante analyse. Maar er worden daaruit hooguit 90 woorden vermeld. Toen ik met mijn fluo-stift een etymologisch woordenboek doorbladerde, vond ik er toch een 400-tal. Daarbij moet je ook naar de zinsconstructies zelf kijken Frans is zo anders dan de andere Romaanse talen, precies door die Frankische invloed. Een Franse en een Latijnse zin tonen veel minder overeenkomst dan een Franse en een Vlaamse zin. Goetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] Fellow Lowlanders, The presence of many French loan words in Scots is not at all surprising for three reasons: 1. French was the "universal" (in Europe) language of culture in the Middle Ages 2. There were close political ties between France and Scotland, which often allied against England - in fact there is a Scots term for this - the "Auld Alliance." Bonnie Prince Charlie, for example, spoke French as his first language 3. There was a significant French immigration to Scotland in the 11th and 12th centuries (which few Scots realize) - such typically Scots names as Fraser Archibald and Stewart for example being Norman and Breton in origin. Another typ9cal Scottish name - Fleming - of course refers to Vlaams who brought the wool trade Because the Reformation was particularly violent in Scotland and religious prejudices often extreme, Scots protestants were often encouraged to downplay or ignore the "French (Catholic) connection" to their history - indeed much of the substantial 18th century Catholic population of Scotland emigrated to Ireland and Canada. The degree of English influence on Scots evolution increased steadily over time, particularly after the Union of the crowns in the early 1700s - which, ironically, put a Scot on the throne of England! Scots for aye George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 20:27:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:27:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (07) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (03) [LS] Leve L??, Ik find "Klappreekner gans good v??r "laptop", mut ik seggen. Aver "Scho?rechner" v??r`t Hoochd??tsche is bannig snaaksch. Wor?m nich slichtweg "Klapprechner"? ?vrigen harr ik al j?mmers wat tegen "Handy" v??r "Mobiltelefon" in`t Hooch. Gaar ni tegen dat Woord s?lf, avers tegen de scriifwiis. Wp weer dat den mid "H?ndi" ? Gr?tens, Daniel ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Tjer, "Mobiltelefon" ... daar stimm' ik, je na Dialekt, f?r "Taschenkl??nkassen," "Taschensabbelkassen," "Fickenkl??nkassen" un "Fickensabbelkassen" ... :] Kumpelmenten in 't Huus! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 20:29:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:29:51 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jack Driedger jimdee at sasktel.net Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] I have lived in Saskatchewan, Canada all my life. My first language was Plautdietsch. When I entered the local public school, I was forced to speak English from the time I entered the school grounds until I left the school grounds to walk home. I am glad that happened at the time. I empathize with Mike Wintzer. Although I needed to learn the English language as a resident of Canada, I have continued to practice Plautdietsch to this day. My children never learned Plautdietsch. ..................................... My point though was that nowadays, in the age of > universal human > rights, these processes are FORCED upon us with a violence hitherto unheard > of, at least in the area of languages. A sovereign even as late as the 18th > or 19th century in general didn?t care too much what his subject spoke. Yes, > I agree, all through the age evolution took its course. Sometimes evolution > was violent. But, the systematic, state-ordered violence towards languages > (and the cultures they carry) is a recent phenomenon, triggered by the > emergence of the so-called "nation" states. I was raped, culturally, > linguisticly, when I was denied access to my culture, deprived of my > childhood language, and a foreign language was forced upon me for the rest > of my days. I feel that I was denied a basic Human Right. And that?s what my > militant feelings are directed to. If I belonged to an ethnie, there clearly > was ethnocide. > George Gibault writes: > "...don't start with the politicians and lawyers..." > Whom else can I address my grievances about state-ordered violence to but to > state institutions, the justice system in this case? What are the > alternatives? Extra-judicial (but for heaven?s sake no violent) actions, > I proposed some in my posting. > George continues: > "Start with the kids - it is their brains and mouths which form the field on > which the campaign will be won or lost!" > And: > "If local young people don't have a major role in formulating local language > policy its chances for success are dim." > Right you are George, oh so right! > If you knock someone down in the street and police arrives, can you point to > him and say: "Look he doesn?t even WANT to get up." > Who was there when little Mike Wintzer was a receptive kid??? The almighty > state with its mandatory school system that knew (and still does know) only > one language - its own official "national" language, foreign to the land. > Who gave young Mike a chance to > "formulate local language policies"?? > Better late than never, now he wants > his voice to be heard. And I am sure that many of the > Lowlanders, if they look at it this way, if they really become aware of > their ethnic affiliation and what happened to it, will want their voices to > be heard , too. That was the sense of my wake-up call. > Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 20:33:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 13:33:17 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jack Driedger jimdee at sasktel.net Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] I have lived in Saskatchewan, Canada all my life. My first language was Plautdietsch. When I entered the local public school, I was forced to speak English from the time I entered the school grounds until I left the school grounds to walk home. I am glad that happened at the time. I empathize with Mike Wintzer. Although I needed to learn the English language as a resident of Canada, I have continued to practice Plautdietsch to this day. My children never learned Plautdietsch. ..................................... My point though was that nowadays, in the age of > universal human > rights, these processes are FORCED upon us with a violence hitherto unheard > of, at least in the area of languages. A sovereign even as late as the 18th > or 19th century in general didn?t care too much what his subject spoke. Yes, > I agree, all through the age evolution took its course. Sometimes evolution > was violent. But, the systematic, state-ordered violence towards languages > (and the cultures they carry) is a recent phenomenon, triggered by the > emergence of the so-called "nation" states. I was raped, culturally, > linguisticly, when I was denied access to my culture, deprived of my > childhood language, and a foreign language was forced upon me for the rest > of my days. I feel that I was denied a basic Human Right. And that?s what my > militant feelings are directed to. If I belonged to an ethnie, there clearly > was ethnocide. > George Gibault writes: > "...don't start with the politicians and lawyers..." > Whom else can I address my grievances about state-ordered violence to but to > state institutions, the justice system in this case? What are the > alternatives? Extra-judicial (but for heaven?s sake no violent) actions, > I proposed some in my posting. > George continues: > "Start with the kids - it is their brains and mouths which form the field on > which the campaign will be won or lost!" > And: > "If local young people don't have a major role in formulating local language > policy its chances for success are dim." > Right you are George, oh so right! > If you knock someone down in the street and police arrives, can you point to > him and say: "Look he doesn?t even WANT to get up." > Who was there when little Mike Wintzer was a receptive kid??? The almighty > state with its mandatory school system that knew (and still does know) only > one language - its own official "national" language, foreign to the land. > Who gave young Mike a chance to > "formulate local language policies"?? > Better late than never, now he wants > his voice to be heard. And I am sure that many of the > Lowlanders, if they look at it this way, if they really become aware of > their ethnic affiliation and what happened to it, will want their voices to > be heard , too. That was the sense of my wake-up call. > Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 23:45:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:45:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] Fellow lowlanders: Hi and best wishes to all. I agree that the act of the state against minority languages must be fought politically and in the courts - absolutely. I have been helping in a case as a matter of fact where native kids are suing for loss of culture at state enforced "residential schools." My point was that there is a fine line between government "help" which supports real community efforts and government "help" which ends up being a costly waste of tax dollars and generates regional and ethnic animosity and backlash - as Canada's federal bilingual policy has done in western Canada - where studies actually show that the French speaking minority has dropped French FASTER than immigrant minorities speaking "unofficial" languages. I would say use political and legal action in defence - to open up opportunities to use and develop minority languages - but be very careful about how you use the cold hand of the state to "promote" them. Bottom up culture and language support feels like democracy: top down feels like political pandering and in extreme cases forced language learning/use feels like tyranny. P.S. Prussia derives from Bo Russia (near Russia) Rurik, foujder of the Kievan Rus dynasty which led to the Czars was a viking. Cheers George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 23:57:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:57:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (10) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (06) [E] Luc Hellinckx wrote about the postings on the linguistic (and ethnic) situation in Brus- sels: > Briefly, imho Marco Evenhuis got it completely right in his last message. Good to hear that from someone south of the Dutch/Belgian border... I often get the feeling that when one dares to have an opinion about 'Flemish' subjects like these as a 'Hollander', no matter what your opinion is, you're always wrong in the eyes of a Fleming. But then again, that's just one of these things that make Belgium such an interesting place for us ;-) Sante?e! Marco Luc Vanbrabant schreef: > Inderdaad, het chronologisch woordenboek geeft ons een interessante > analyse. Maar er worden daaruit hooguit 90 woorden vermeld. > Toen ik met mijn fluo-stift een etymologisch woordenboek doorbladerde, > vond ik er toch een 400-tal. > Daarbij moet je ook naar de zinsconstructies zelf kijken Frans is zo > anders dan de andere Romaanse talen, precies door die Frankische > invloed. Een Franse en een Latijnse zin tonen veel minder overeenkomst > dan een Franse en een Vlaamse zin. Zou dat laatste niet vooral veroorzaakt worden door de Franse invloed op het Vlaams in plaats van een Germaans- Frankisch substraat in het Frans? Ik be- doel, wanneer ik naar mijn eigen Zeeuws kijk, daar bestaan lijsten van met honder- den Zeeuwse woorden van Franse kom- af. Zou het aantal Franse leenwoorden naar het zuiden toe geen veelvoud zijn van wat er hier, waar het Frans nooit een rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld, al niet te vinden is? Groeten, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 2 23:59:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 16:59:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Eldo Neufeld Subject: LL-L Festivals Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P?pan?t" (Ger: Pfeffern?sse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and "P?pan?t?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P?pan?t (after baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. Eldo Neufeld 4040 Blenheim St. Vancouver, BC V6L 2Y9 Tel: (604) 738-4378 e-mail: greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 00:07:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 17:07:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "In the news" 2002.10.02 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: In the news Lowlanders, Canada, Steinbach, Mennonites and their "archaic German dialect" -- as well as multicultural and multilingual situations -- all mentioned (though somewhat buried in economic reports) without real reference to the United States in a U.S. newspaper article? Yes, the weirdest things do happen! Please read below! Regards, Reinhard/Ron === Seattle Post-Intelligencer, Wednesday, October 2, 2002 As provincial tax base shrinks, 'the very future of our country' at stake Canada has open arms for rural immigrants CANADA: Many rural newcomers speak no English BY CLIFFORD KRAUSS The New York Times STEINBACH, Manitoba - Udia Tschritter comes to the door barefoot to meet her nine children as they return home from school. Her hair is tied in a kerchief and she wears a homemade flower-print dress that reaches her ankles just as she did in her native Mennonite village in Kazakhstan. The front yard of her six-bedroom house has a trampoline for the children next to a sumptuous fruit and vegetable garden. Her husband, David, a carpenter who makes patio doors in a local window factory, will be home any minute to care for the family's barn full of animals. "Canada is wonderful!" exclaimed Tschritter, 39, in her archaic German dialect. "We can buy everything we need, worship as we wish, and it's nice and peaceful." This is the snapshot the Canadian government hopes to duplicate thousands of times over as it embarks on a new immigration policy designed to attract young, preferably large foreign families to rural Canada. The goal is to send 1 million immigrants into the hinterlands over the next decade by matching workers with remote businesses and farms that are starved for skilled labor, and to spread Canada's multiethnic rainbow across the country's vast prairies, tundras and forests. Officials hope to remold an immigration policy that has turned Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal into three of the most ethnically diverse cities in the world, and to distribute the labor riches of places such as China, India and Ethiopia more equally. With Canada's population of 30 million aging and its birth rate plummeting - Canadian women currently have 1.49 children on average - the government says that it, like some European countries, must rely on increasing immigration to ward off a population decline. But with the populations of Newfoundland falling by 7 percent between the 1996 and 2001 censuses, Yukon by 6.8 percent, Northwest Territories by 5.8 percent, New Brunswick by 1.2 percent and Saskatchewan by 1.1 percent, populations in some rural areas are already in calamitous decline. "We need to create more magnets for immigration everywhere," said Minister for Citizenship and Immigration Denis Codere, in an interview. "It's a matter of population growth, labor supply, quality of life, the very future of our country." Not only is the centuries-old dream of populating Canada's vast-ness at stake. The solvency of national health care, and educational and housing programs that are financed by provincial tax bases, which are shrinking, may also hang in the balance. Enormous stretches in the prairies are suffering a slow death from cuts in farm subsidies, shrinking agricultural profit margins and drought. The decline of the farm economy has throttled businesses and compelled young people to take their skills and ambitions to large cities or to the United States. Along the frigid Atlantic coast, a depletion offish stocks has converted entire fishing communities into ghost towns. Looking to immigration to meet its needs is not new for Canada. Pew industrialized countries have so consistently used immigration as a tool for nation-building. Canada populated its vast west in the 19th century by handing out land to European immigrants, much as its southern neighbor did. Today Canada's per capita immigration rate is twice that of the United States, and about 17 percent of the population is foreign-born. Canadian authorities, noting negative demographic trends 25 years ago, opened Canada's doors to people from the Caribbean, Asia and Africa. But the new arrivals duster in a few cities - 53 percent of the 250,000 who arrive every year settle in Toronto, 15 percent in Vancouver and 13 percent in Montreal. Now, though, the earnings for new immigrants are declining in saturated labor markets, strains have been put on services, and urban neighborhoods and schools are growing increasingly segregated into a racial and ethnic checkerboard. The imbalance also threatens to produce a balkanized Canada, with three metropolitan areas becoming increasingly distinct from the rest of the country. "We just don't know how a Toronto of the future, which is 60 percent non-white with 110 different ethnic groups and languages, is going to relate to the rest of Canada," said Larry Bourne, a geography professor at the University of Toronto. Codere has embraced the efforts and will unveil a new federal policy in mid-October that would grant thousands of immigrants three- to five-year work permits under the proviso that they live in rural communities. If they comply, they will be automatically granted permanent resident status, with the right to apply for citizenship after another three years. By then, officials hope they will have planted roots in the small towns and will stay Codere also will propose ways to quicken retraining and licensing for foreign engineers, teachers and medical professionals seeking work in rural communities. Skeptics say immigrants will continue to gravitate to cities and some question the constitutionality of limiting people's freedom to move around. Furthermore, they say, not every province is able to build on ethnic populations already present. But at Loewen Windows here in Steinbach, founded a century ago by the son of Russian Mennonites, the owners turned to Mennonites as they sought 150 new workers. Originally from Germany, the Mennonites have a 200-year history in Russia and Kazakhstan. During the Soviet period, they were encouraged to go to Kazakhstan for much the same reason that Canada is seeking them as set-tiers today. Many of the newcomers here speak no English, although many of the older Mennonite supervisors speak at least some German learned from their grandparents. The housing boom in the United States had propelled the company's sales, and Loewen needed more skilled workers. "I could have put a plant in Georgia, Mexico, Malaysia or China," said Charles Loewen, the chief executive officer, "but we prefer to grow here and immigration helped us hugely." In nearby Winnipeg, the 15,000-member Jewish population has helped attract Jews from economically depressed Argentina by sending delegations, helping with job interviews and English lessons and making sure prospective immigrants have a Friday night Sabbath dinner during exploratory visits. The 35 Argentine families who have arrived over the last year have given the Jewish community here renewed confidence it can survive, and hundreds more have expressed interest in coming. Martin Wayngenten, 30, an accountant, remembered when his rabbi in the city of Parana took him aside and asked him toconsider moving to Winnipeg. The rabbi suggested that he and his wife, Agustina, 29, a bio-medical engineer, would be welcomed with open arms. "We took out a map and looked up Winnipeg," Agustina Wayngenten recalled. Her husband chimed in, "When you don't have a job, you don't worry about the weather." They have found jobs, are saving for a house and are expecting their first baby. "I am going to speak to my child in Spanish," Agustina said, smiling, "but he'll be a Canadian." ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 04:36:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2002 21:36:19 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.02 (13) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 02.OCT.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Delectables Dag ook, Eldo un annere Leeglanners! Eldo, under "Festivals" you wrote today: > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P?pan?t" (Ger: > Pfeffern?sse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "P?pan?t?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P?pan?t (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffern?sse_), as you already know. In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" out of a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ (['pe:p3n?:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same form for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is "gingerbread nut(s)." (* North Saxon _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ and Plautdietsch _P?pan?t_ correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most eastern dialects unrounds /?/ to /e/ and /?/ to /i/.) There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have never heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version *_Peperkoken_ (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by some. Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], literally "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread (German _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by origin (at least in Northern Germany). I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not only literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of Dutch imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indi?_, namely mostly from what is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In German you can tell someone to "get lost" by suggesting they "go where pepper grows" (_hingehen, wo der Pfeffer w?chst_), which means to a really distant place (preferably of no return), and I believe that this, too, originally referred to "exotic spices" in general (from Indonesia or the Americas). There must be thousands of recipes for _Pfeffern?sse_, _Pepern??t_ and _pepernoten_. Usually, pepper is not one of its ingredients, though I have heard that someone adds black pepper to her _Pfeffern?sse_, perhaps only because of the name. The ingredients tend to be similar to those of gingerbread, but the dough is rolled into small balls before baking, and the baked balls tend to get some, usually white, sugar frosting or glazing on top. Like gingerbread, they are hard and chewy (at least originally) and are (were) meant for long-time storage without refrigeration. Like gingerbread, they count among traditional staple Christmas treats. I might be able to scare up a couple of traditional recipes should anyone be interested in trying them in preparation for the end-of-year holidays. Why, if they don't turn out properly edible, you could always use the end results as paper weights, or as projectiles to keep the crows away from the kale and brusselsprouts in your wintry backyards. (I remember one of our Scottish friends--perhaps Sandy?--a long time ago telling us a number of ways of making and variously using Scottish _parritch_ 'porridge' other than eating it, and I vaguely remember it involved drawers (of the cupboard type, fortunately not of the underwear type) and other unexpected things. I have to try and dig that one up from the depths of our pre-LINGUIST archive.) Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:13:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:13:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "In the news" 2002.10.03 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] Sandy wrote: >It doesn't follow. > >All your examples do is establish a trend - you also have >to establish why this trend should persist. Although >languages may be dying out wholesale, languages exist in >many different situations and have a lot of individuality. >Just because a population is declining doesn't mean all but >a few will survive. It could even be said that trends are >made to be broken because they carry the seeds of their own >destruction, in the form of the idea that quantity produces >quality. An increasing trend is a question of something >being piled on steadily until something changes - a pile of >child's bricks is just too high and finally topples over, >the people rebel against the latest minor tax increase >because some personal wealth threshhold has been crossed. >On the other hand the qualitative change that finally >results from a persistent trend can be productive - a >critical mass is reached and things can begin to happen. > >Diminishing trends can be more predictable - instead of a >critical mass being reached, the thing can get insupportably >small and disappear. This is probably what raises concerns >about language death. > >However, your examples also seem selective, in the sense >that they all indicate diminishing trends. There are also >increasing trends in Scots, particularly with written >Scots - although a lot of the Scots written in the 20th >century has been poorer quality than ever before, the >"Lallans Movement" still established the idea that Scots >doesn't have to be written as a dialect of English and in >fact only really works if it isn't. The later 20th century >also saw the publication of Lorimer's New Testament, which >is in what might be the best Scots ever written. > >Although it seems as if Lorimer has been largely ignored, >it actually represents a serious trend-breaking possibility. >It certainly lays low the old idea that Scots is only suited >to the writing of humour and reminiscences. How do we know >there isn't some brilliant young writer with a reasonable >Scots-speaking background who's capable of integrating the >lessons in Lorimer with his own background to produce >outstanding works in Scots that will be so good that people >will want to read it in spite of not being familiar with >written Scots? > >This sort of thing has happened before. Fergusson and Ramsay >were writing very good stuff, and when a relatively uneducated >genius like Burns came on the scene, there was Fergusson and >Ramsay's Scots diction for him to study and become familiar >with how to write Scots. Burns wasn't really recognised in >his time, but within a century his works were on the shelves >of most Scottish households, beside the King James Bible. The >effect of even a single book like this shouldn't be underestimated >in the preservation of a living language - I myself remember >pulling the Burns book from my parents' bookshelf at an early >age and finding out for the first time that Scots could be written. > >Although this is about written Scots, I think that there may >come a time when there's a critical mass of written Scots, >after which many more people will start writing it, and as a >result, speaking it better and in wider social circles. A >qualitative change like this depends on a critical mass being >reached. This is why I think ScotsteXt is important: whereas >before only a few books have been readily available in Scots >(mainly Burns and Lorimer - don't miss the fact that although >Lorimer seems to be ignored, he always sells well enough to >stay in print) now there are hundreds. It's not just the >enjoyment of being able to read all those texts, it's also >the statement that Scots has a huge literature, and the study >resources being available for any writers who may want to >continue this great tradition and extend the literature. > >The 20th Century saw the publication of the SND and now we >have Colin's book as the latest addition to the critical mass. >Think of what we have now that we didn't have until relatively >recently: > >Huge ten-volume language dictionary; >New Testament in extremely high-register Scots; >Major text book for learners, with tapes; >Large body of Scots literature readily available worldwide; >Parliament that might yet be persuaded to provide decent > translations of its bumph into Scots; >And so on. > >As Ron has pointed out, the existence of the Internet opens up >many new possibilities for breaking trends, no matter how long >they may have been established. You can either go down the >plughole with the prophets of doom, or you can seize the >opportunity and try to rescue at least your own language! > There remains, however, the problem that most of the things you cite as advances in Scots are totally unknown to the vast majority of the Scots-speaking population. Those who do know about these advances are perhaps just as (more?) likely to be monolingual English speakers, because they inhabit the educational echelons where these advances are recognised. What Scots speakers are more likely to come across are (a) Trainspotting, and (b) Chewin' the Fat and similar programmes, both of which reinforce the image of Scots as the language of (a) drug addicts, and (b) persons, shall we say, of less than average intelligence. This leaves the problem which my illustrations (um!) illustrate! The identification of Scots with 'low' culture - an identification largely perpetrated by middle-class speakers of English - reinforces rather than counters the tendency for English to be associated with advancement and 'niceness'. And much of the 'Scots' produced specifically in order to advance Scots and to prove that it can be 'nice' - such as James Robertson's book on the Scottish Parliament - may be 'nice', but unfortunately isn't Scots. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:16:35 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:16:35 -0700 Subject: LL-L "In the news" 2002.10.03 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com Subject: papanat, pfeffernusse, pepernoten The possible solution of the "pepper-problem" might be this: In the beginning (if my memory is wright) of importing spice to Europe, the word "pepper" was used to indicate "spice" in general; including cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. vr. gr. Theo Homan -------------------------- answering: From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Delectables Dag ook, Eldo un annere Leeglanners! Eldo, under "Festivals" you wrote today: > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P?pan?t" (Ger: > Pfeffern?sse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "P?pan?t?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P?pan?t (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffern?sse_), as you already know. In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" out of a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ (['pe:p3n?:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same form for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is "gingerbread nut(s)." (* North Saxon _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ and Plautdietsch _P?pan?t_ correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most eastern dialects unrounds /?/ to /e/ and /?/ to /i/.) There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have never heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version *_Peperkoken_ (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by some. Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], literally "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread (German _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by origin (at least in Northern Germany). I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not only literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of Dutch imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indi?_, namely mostly from what is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In German you can tell someone to "get lost" by suggesting they "go where pepper grows" (_hingehen, wo der Pfeffer w?chst_), which means to a really distant place (preferably of no return), and I believe that this, too, originally referred to "exotic spices" in general (from Indonesia or the Americas). There must be thousands of recipes for _Pfeffern?sse_, _Pepern??t_ and _pepernoten_. Usually, pepper is not one of its ingredients, though I have heard that someone adds black pepper to her _Pfeffern?sse_, perhaps only because of the name. The ingredients tend to be similar to those of gingerbread, but the dough is rolled into small balls before baking, and the baked balls tend to get some, usually white, sugar frosting or glazing on top. Like gingerbread, they are hard and chewy (at least originally) and are (were) meant for long-time storage without refrigeration. Like gingerbread, they count among traditional staple Christmas treats. I might be able to scare up a couple of traditional recipes should anyone be interested in trying them in preparation for the end-of-year holidays. Why, if they don't turn out properly edible, you could always use the end results as paper weights, or as projectiles to keep the crows away from the kale and brusselsprouts in your wintry backyards. (I remember one of our Scottish friends--perhaps Sandy?--a long time ago telling us a number of ways of making and variously using Scottish _parritch_ 'porridge' other than eating it, and I vaguely remember it involved drawers (of the cupboard type, fortunately not of the underwear type) and other unexpected things. I have to try and dig that one up from the depths of our pre-LINGUIST archive.) Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Delectables Ron wrote: > In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffern?sse_), as you already > know. > In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" > out of > a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low > German) _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ (['pe:p3n?:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same > form > for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is > "gingerbread nut(s)." > > (* North Saxon _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ and Plautdietsch _P?pan?t_ > correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most > eastern > dialects unrounds /?/ to /e/ and /?/ to /i/.) > > There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent > _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have > never > heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version > *_Peperkoken_ > (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by > some. > Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], > literally > "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread > (German > _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by > origin > (at least in Northern Germany). > > I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not > only > literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, > including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of > Dutch > imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indi?_, namely mostly from > what > is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In Dutch, pepernoten are also called kruidnoten ('spice nuts'). They are not completely the same, but I don't know about ingredients, though. This Honingkuchen is known in the Netherlands under the names "kruidkoek" and "ontbijtkoek". The general assumption is that this 'bread' of 'cake' originated in Friesland or Groningen, but these kinds of cakes (often with 'kandijsuiker-brokken' on top) are very general in the entire country. Also, one of the most famous ontbijkoek-bakeries is from Brabant...(picture: http://www.peijnenburg.nl/main/images/500-ok-01-01.gif) Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:17:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:17:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectable" 2002.10.03 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan theohoman at yahoo.com Subject: papanat, pfeffernusse, pepernoten The possible solution of the "pepper-problem" might be this: In the beginning (if my memory is wright) of importing spice to Europe, the word "pepper" was used to indicate "spice" in general; including cinnamon, nutmeg, etc. vr. gr. Theo Homan -------------------------- answering: From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Delectables Dag ook, Eldo un annere Leeglanners! Eldo, under "Festivals" you wrote today: > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P?pan?t" (Ger: > Pfeffern?sse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "P?pan?t?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P?pan?t (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffern?sse_), as you already know. In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" out of a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ (['pe:p3n?:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same form for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is "gingerbread nut(s)." (* North Saxon _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ and Plautdietsch _P?pan?t_ correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most eastern dialects unrounds /?/ to /e/ and /?/ to /i/.) There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have never heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version *_Peperkoken_ (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by some. Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], literally "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread (German _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by origin (at least in Northern Germany). I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not only literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of Dutch imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indi?_, namely mostly from what is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In German you can tell someone to "get lost" by suggesting they "go where pepper grows" (_hingehen, wo der Pfeffer w?chst_), which means to a really distant place (preferably of no return), and I believe that this, too, originally referred to "exotic spices" in general (from Indonesia or the Americas). There must be thousands of recipes for _Pfeffern?sse_, _Pepern??t_ and _pepernoten_. Usually, pepper is not one of its ingredients, though I have heard that someone adds black pepper to her _Pfeffern?sse_, perhaps only because of the name. The ingredients tend to be similar to those of gingerbread, but the dough is rolled into small balls before baking, and the baked balls tend to get some, usually white, sugar frosting or glazing on top. Like gingerbread, they are hard and chewy (at least originally) and are (were) meant for long-time storage without refrigeration. Like gingerbread, they count among traditional staple Christmas treats. I might be able to scare up a couple of traditional recipes should anyone be interested in trying them in preparation for the end-of-year holidays. Why, if they don't turn out properly edible, you could always use the end results as paper weights, or as projectiles to keep the crows away from the kale and brusselsprouts in your wintry backyards. (I remember one of our Scottish friends--perhaps Sandy?--a long time ago telling us a number of ways of making and variously using Scottish _parritch_ 'porridge' other than eating it, and I vaguely remember it involved drawers (of the cupboard type, fortunately not of the underwear type) and other unexpected things. I have to try and dig that one up from he depths of our pre-LINGUIST archive.) Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Delectables Ron wrote: > In German it is _Pfeffernuss_ (plural _Pfeffern?sse_), as you already > know. > In Dutch it is _pepernoot_ (sounding somewhat similar to "paper note" > out of > a Scottish mouth, pl. _pepernoten_) and in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low > German) _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ (['pe:p3n?:t] ~ ['pE:p3n9:t], same > form > for plural)*, all literally "pepper nut(s)". The usual English name is > "gingerbread nut(s)." > > (* North Saxon _Pepern??t_ ~ _P?pern??t_ and Plautdietsch _P?pan?t_ > correspond perfectly phonologically, where Plautdietsch, like most > eastern > dialects unrounds /?/ to /e/ and /?/ to /i/.) > > There are also the German name _Pfefferkuchen_ and its Dutch equivalent > _peperkoek_, literally "pepper cake," meaning 'gingerbread'. I have > never > heard or read the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) version > *_Peperkoken_ > (['pe:p3kOUkN=] ~ ['pE:p3kOUkN=]) used, though I expect it is used by > some. > Most people that I know call it _Honnigkoken_ (['hO.nICkOUkN=], > literally > "honey cake"), though this may overlap with "real" honey cake/bread > (German > _Honigkuchen_, made with honey) that tends to be considered Dutch by > origin > (at least in Northern Germany). > > I have a hunch that _Pfeffer_, _Peper_ and _peper_ used to mean not > only > literally "pepper" but also "exotic spice(s)" as a general term (thus, > including ginger, cloves and cinnamon), probably in the early days of > Dutch > imports from the "Spice Islands," or _(Oost-)Indi?_, namely mostly from > what > is now the Moluccas and Indonesia. In Dutch, pepernoten are also called kruidnoten ('spice nuts'). They are not completely the same, but I don't know about ingredients, though. This Honingkuchen is known in the Netherlands under the names "kruidkoek" and "ontbijtkoek". The general assumption is that this 'bread' of 'cake' originated in Friesland or Groningen, but these kinds of cakes (often with 'kandijsuiker-brokken' on top) are very general in the entire country. Also, one of the most famous ontbijkoek-bakeries is from Brabant...(picture: http://www.peijnenburg.nl/main/images/500-ok-01-01.gif) Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:21:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:21:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.03 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl Subject: Language varieties Mike Wintzer and Colin Wilson wrote: > >I find about the same degree of Latin (Norman) > >superstrate in Scots as in English. Shouldn?t one expect rather less > >Normannic words in Scots than in English if the a.m. supposition was > true? > > Not at all. Indeed, for centuries Scotland and France not only were > allies against their common enemy, England, but also traded with each > other a great deal, and so one might even expect to see *more And George M Gibault wrote: > The presence of many French loan words in Scots is not at all > surprising > for three reasons: > 1. French was the "universal" (in Europe) language of culture in the > Middle > Ages > 2. There were close political ties between France and Scotland, which > often > allied against England > - in fact there is a Scots term for this - the "Auld Alliance." Bonnie > Prince Charlie, for example, spoke French as his first language > 3. There was a significant French immigration to Scotland in the 11th > and > 12th centuries (which few Scots realize) - such typically Scots names > as > Fraser Archibald and Stewart for example being Norman and Breton in > origin. I can confirm this, at university (I study regional planning) we recently discussed the differences en simularities between European justice and planning systems. It was noticable that Scotland shares the basics with France, the Netherlands etc. ('Napoleonic system'), whereas the other British nations are clearly different than the rest of Europe ('British system'). Clearly there was some sort of alliance between Scotland and France. Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 15:26:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 08:26:44 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.03 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] Sandy wrote: >It doesn't follow. > >All your examples do is establish a trend - you also have >to establish why this trend should persist. Although >languages may be dying out wholesale, languages exist in >many different situations and have a lot of individuality. >Just because a population is declining doesn't mean all but >a few will survive. It could even be said that trends are >made to be broken because they carry the seeds of their own >destruction, in the form of the idea that quantity produces >quality. An increasing trend is a question of something >being piled on steadily until something changes - a pile of >child's bricks is just too high and finally topples over, >the people rebel against the latest minor tax increase >because some personal wealth threshhold has been crossed. >On the other hand the qualitative change that finally >results from a persistent trend can be productive - a >critical mass is reached and things can begin to happen. > >Diminishing trends can be more predictable - instead of a >critical mass being reached, the thing can get insupportably >small and disappear. This is probably what raises concerns >about language death. > >However, your examples also seem selective, in the sense >that they all indicate diminishing trends. There are also >increasing trends in Scots, particularly with written >Scots - although a lot of the Scots written in the 20th >century has been poorer quality than ever before, the >"Lallans Movement" still established the idea that Scots >doesn't have to be written as a dialect of English and in >fact only really works if it isn't. The later 20th century >also saw the publication of Lorimer's New Testament, which >is in what might be the best Scots ever written. > >Although it seems as if Lorimer has been largely ignored, >it actually represents a serious trend-breaking possibility. >It certainly lays low the old idea that Scots is only suited >to the writing of humour and reminiscences. How do we know >there isn't some brilliant young writer with a reasonable >Scots-speaking background who's capable of integrating the >lessons in Lorimer with his own background to produce >outstanding works in Scots that will be so good that people >will want to read it in spite of not being familiar with >written Scots? > >This sort of thing has happened before. Fergusson and Ramsay >were writing very good stuff, and when a relatively uneducated >genius like Burns came on the scene, there was Fergusson and >Ramsay's Scots diction for him to study and become familiar >with how to write Scots. Burns wasn't really recognised in >his time, but within a century his works were on the shelves >of most Scottish households, beside the King James Bible. The >effect of even a single book like this shouldn't be underestimated >in the preservation of a living language - I myself remember >pulling the Burns book from my parents' bookshelf at an early >age and finding out for the first time that Scots could be written. > >Although this is about written Scots, I think that there may >come a time when there's a critical mass of written Scots, >after which many more people will start writing it, and as a >result, speaking it better and in wider social circles. A >qualitative change like this depends on a critical mass being >reached. This is why I think ScotsteXt is important: whereas >before only a few books have been readily available in Scots >(mainly Burns and Lorimer - don't miss the fact that although >Lorimer seems to be ignored, he always sells well enough to >stay in print) now there are hundreds. It's not just the >enjoyment of being able to read all those texts, it's also >the statement that Scots has a huge literature, and the study >resources being available for any writers who may want to >continue this great tradition and extend the literature. > >The 20th Century saw the publication of the SND and now we >have Colin's book as the latest addition to the critical mass. >Think of what we have now that we didn't have until relatively >recently: > >Huge ten-volume language dictionary; >New Testament in extremely high-register Scots; >Major text book for learners, with tapes; >Large body of Scots literature readily available worldwide; >Parliament that might yet be persuaded to provide decent > translations of its bumph into Scots; >And so on. > >As Ron has pointed out, the existence of the Internet opens up >many new possibilities for breaking trends, no matter how long >they may have been established. You can either go down the >plughole with the prophets of doom, or you can seize the >opportunity and try to rescue at least your own language! There remains, however, the problem that most of the things you cite as advances in Scots are totally unknown to the vast majority of the Scots-speaking population. Those who do know about these advances are perhaps just as (more?) likely to be monolingual English speakers, because they inhabit the educational echelons where these advances are recognised. What Scots speakers are more likely to come across are (a) Trainspotting, and (b) Chewin' the Fat and similar programmes, both of which reinforce the image of Scots as the language of (a) drug addicts, and (b) persons, shall we say, of less than average intelligence. This leaves the problem which my illustrations (um!) illustrate! The identification of Scots with 'low' culture - an identification largely perpetrated by middle-class speakers of English - reinforces rather than counters the tendency for English to be associated with advancement and 'niceness'. And much of the 'Scots' produced specifically in order to advance Scots and to prove that it can be 'nice' - such as James Robertson's book on the Scottish Parliament - may be 'nice', but unfortunately isn't Scots. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 21:36:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:36:34 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Lowland cat terms - moggie Hi all! Some - but not all of my English friends use the term "moggie" as an affectionate term for a cat or kitten. I wonder if there are other terms not cognate with cat used for cats, kittens or kinds of them in varieties of Lowlands. I have a ginger cat - but do you use the word for ginger to describe such felines - or do you call her a rooikop or some such? What about "tabby?" Angora turns out to be dialect for Ankara - so these are Turks! I wonder if "moggie" is from the same root as magie (small stomach or tummy in Afrikaans) The "same" but different word means "magic" - a connotation of cats as witches' familiars perhaps? I thought Billy was a random name for a cat as in the TV series Billy the cat until I learned that billi is a Punjabi word for cat - so now I am less certain that it is a coincidence. Any Lowland cat terms appreciated! Best wishes George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 21:38:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:38:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.03 (05) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (10) [D/E] > From: Marco Evenhuis evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (06) [E] [Luc Hellinckx]: > > > Inderdaad, het chronologisch woordenboek geeft ons een interessante > > analyse. Maar er worden daaruit hooguit 90 woorden vermeld. > > Toen ik met mijn fluo-stift een etymologisch woordenboek doorbladerde, > > vond ik er toch een 400-tal. > > Daarbij moet je ook naar de zinsconstructies zelf kijken Frans is zo > > anders dan de andere Romaanse talen, precies door die Frankische > > invloed. Een Franse en een Latijnse zin tonen veel minder overeenkomst > > dan een Franse en een Vlaamse zin. [Marco Evenhuis]: > Zou dat laatste niet vooral veroorzaakt > worden door de Franse invloed op het > Vlaams in plaats van een Germaans- > Frankisch substraat in het Frans? Ik be- > doel, wanneer ik naar mijn eigen Zeeuws > kijk, daar bestaan lijsten van met honder- > den Zeeuwse woorden van Franse kom- > af. Zou het aantal Franse leenwoorden > naar het zuiden toe geen veelvoud zijn > van wat er hier, waar het Frans nooit een > rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld, > al niet te vinden is? Beste Marco, Ik onderschrijf ten volle jouw suggestie dat de overeenkomst tussen Vlaams en Frans wel eens voor een aardig deel zou kunnen zijn ontstaan door invloed van Frans op het Vlaams. Maar de opmerking dat Frans hier "nooit een rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld" lijkt me wat kort door de bocht. Ten eerste natuurlijk op bestuurlijk niveau wel, ten tweede via handel ook wel, en ten derde zijn er in Zeeland dacht ik behoorlijk wat Hugenoten neergestreken. Groeten, Floor van Lamoen. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 21:39:58 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:39:58 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.03 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Language survival" > From: John M. Tait > Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.09.30 (06) [E] > > There remains, however, the problem that most of the things you cite as > advances in Scots are totally unknown to the vast majority of the > Scots-speaking population. Those who do know about these advances are > perhaps just as (more?) likely to be monolingual English speakers, because > they inhabit the educational echelons where these advances are recognised. > What Scots speakers are more likely to come across are (a) Trainspotting, > and (b) Chewin' the Fat and similar programmes, both of which > reinforce the > image of Scots as the language of (a) drug addicts, and (b) persons, shall > we say, of less than average intelligence. This leaves the > problem which my I already suggested the solution to this 'problem', by saying that we need to build up a critical mass of suitable materials until the general populace does find itself 'ignited' with an awareness of this sort of thing. Books like Trainspotting and programmes like Chewin' the Fat are deliberately written in such a way as to be understandable by the English-speaking populace, and this is why they're widely popular. If you're promoting Scots as a language then whatever you produce has a built-in disadvantage because the written language isn't taught and so can be inaccessible even for many Scots speakers. However, things like Colin's book gradually make better Scots more accessible, not necessarily immediately to the general populace but it has a good chance of raising the awareness of more educated people such as teachers, who might then be better equipped to point the way for others. This is the sort of thing that can provide and awareness of Scots as high culture rather than low. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 21:54:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 14:54:25 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (07) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Delectables" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Delectables > > There must be thousands of recipes for _Pfeffernsse_, _Pepernt_ and > _pepernoten_. Usually, pepper is not one of its ingredients, > though I have > heard that someone adds black pepper to her _Pfeffernsse_, perhaps only > because of the name. The ingredients tend to be similar to those of > gingerbread, but the dough is rolled into small balls before > baking, and the > baked balls tend to get some, usually white, sugar frosting or glazing on > top. Like gingerbread, they are hard and chewy (at least originally) and > are (were) meant for long-time storage without refrigeration. Like > gingerbread, they count among traditional staple Christmas treats. The traditional Scottish treat for Hogmanay is "black bun", which is a heavily spiced, dense, chewy black mixture which is made with dried frruit (mainly raisins, I think) a few months in advance of eating, in order to give it time to mature. It's wrapped in a shell of very thin, hard pastry to trap in the flavour over these months. It's cut into slices for serving, as gingerbread would be, although it's very different. I wonder if there's any connection here with Pepern??t? > (I remember one of our Scottish friends--perhaps Sandy?--a long time ago > telling us a number of ways of making and variously using Scottish > _parritch_ 'porridge' other than eating it, and I vaguely remember it > involved drawers (of the cupboard type, fortunately not of the underwear > type) and other unexpected things. I have to try and dig that one up from > the depths of our pre-LINGUIST archive.) This story originated about 25 years ago with a friend who told me that his grandfather used to make porridge in a drawer every Monday morning and cut a slice off for breakfast each day of the week. This rang a bell with me, as if I'd heard of my own grandfather, or great grandfather, or whoever, doing this. I don't know how widespread it was or whether it was just an eccentricity, but it seems logical in an older generation where houses were cold (hence carvable porridge) and fires took time to light in the morning. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Delectables Sandy, Lawlanders, Here's a bit that I found in the older archive -- nice, albeit not really what I was hoping for: From: Sandy Fleming Subject: Re: LL-L: "Scots" [E/S], LOWLANDS-L, 31.JUL.1998 (06) In message , "R. Hahn" writes > Cuid a scotophile Continental Saxon lik me dae it an aet it an still be > tae the fore? Wid it mak me mair Scotish or it least mair acceptable > in Scotish een? Wull it be the naitional mait o free Scotlan? Is > there a Scotish parritch cuikbuik? Gin there's nane, whit for no? Ower > monie threips anent the cuikin an aetin and spellin o hit? > >So? Ron, there'll be nae airgyment gin ye mak yer parritch the Fleimin wey! Ye need: 1 (ae) bowle 1 (ae) spurtler 1/2 (hauf) mug o aits 1 (ae) mug o watter saut 1 (ae) microwave oven (pronoonced "oaven") Cowp watter & aits inti bowle, microwave on ful pouer for 2m30s, fling saut in an gie it a steir. Onybody airgies, gie them 1 (ae) rap on fingers wi spurtler. That's what the spurtler's _for_! Cheers! Reinhard/Ron P.S.: A _spurtler_ (or _spurtle_) is a porridge stirrer. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 22:05:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 15:05:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (08) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] Dear Eldo, > From: Eldo Neufeld > Subject: LL-L Festivals > > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P?pan?t" (Ger: > Pfeffern?sse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "P?pan?t?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P?pan?t (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. I do not know about the "gingernuts". But I do know that "pepernoten" in the Netherlands are connected to the gift giving day Sinterklaas (5 Dec), which I suggest will be the origin of the Plautdietsch P?pan?t. Of course among the sweets that are given to children at "Sint Maarten" - known in mostly northern parts of the Netherlands - are "pepernoten" as well, but they don't play a key role. St. Maarten was discussed on this list in Nov 1996. Let me quote a small Grunnens LS song that was posted then by Erik Springelkamp: Mien lutje lanteern Ik sai die zo geern Ik loop langs de stroat'n da ken ik nait loat'n Mien lutje lanteern Ik sai die zo geern Groeten, Floor van Lamoen. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Festivals Here is a translation of Floor's Groningen Lowlands Saxon lantern song into Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) from not that much farther east across the NL-DE border: Mien l?ttje Lanteern, Ik seh di so geern. Ik loop langs de straat'n. Da' kann ik nich laat'n. Mien l?ttje Lanteern, Ik seh di so geern The difference is mostly orthographic (Dutch- vs. German-based). In many dialects _she_ would be _seih_ [za.I] too. Rough translation: My little lantern, I love seeing you. I walk down the streets, Just don't want to stop. My little lantern, I love seeing you. Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 23:33:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:33:56 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Anja Meyfarth Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.09.27 (07) [E] Hello Lowlanders, Gary wrote (already some time ago): > If your interested, Romanian has 'mam?' and 'tat?' > (written here with the wrong final accent, because I > don't have the appropriate one on my keyboard) as > standard words for mother and father, which has led to > the rare state of a masculine word (tat?) ending in > -?. and Ron answered: > Thus, it is _mama_ 'mother' and _tata_ 'father', pronounced > somewhat like Yiddish _mame_ and _tate_, which I assume are derived from > them. "Tate" is known in North Frisian dialects too, I don`t know where it comes from. Theory seems to be that it is baby-speech, _t_ being one of the first sounds litle children can produce. Greetings from Kiel, Anja Meyfarth ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 3 23:38:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 16:38:37 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] >From: Eldo Neufeld >Subject: LL-L Festivals > >Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern >Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house >singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In >Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at >Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P???n??? (Ger: >Pfeffern??????, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might >possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and >"P???n???" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no >mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P???n?? (after >baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites >everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around >Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. > >Eldo Neufeld >4040 Blenheim St. >Vancouver, BC V6L 2Y9 >Tel: (604) 738-4378 Hello Eldo ! When I wrote about >gingernuts< it was because I didn't know a better translation for our Eastern Friesland LS word >pe:perno"o"ten< (~e:~ is a long ~e~ and ~o"~ is o-Umlaut - You know the problems with displaying diacritics in my postings !?). Of course >pe:perno"o"ten< is the same word as Your >Pa"pana"t< (German: Pfeffern??sse). They are a kind of spiced cookies, very solid. Unfortunately I don't know the recipe but I'll hear around. Kind regards Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Delectables PEPPERN??T - PFEFFERN?SSE (Gingerbread Nuts, German) (1) Soft butter 4 cup all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon double-acting baking powder 1 teaspoon ground cloves 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon 3/4 cup honey 1 cup dark corn syrup 3/4 cup sugar 2 tablespoon butter 1 tablespoon lard (optional) Preheat the oven to 400 degrees (F). Coat two large baking sheets lightly with butter. Combine the flour, baking powder, cloves, allspice and cinnamon in a bowl, and set aside. In a deep, heavy 5- to 6-quart saucepan, bring the honey, corn syrup and sugar to a boil over moderate heat, stirring until the sugar dissolves. Reduce the heat to low and simmer, uncovered, for 5 minutes. Remove the pan from the heat, add the butter and lard, and stir until melted. Beat in the flour mixture, a cup so at a time. When the batter is smooth, drop it by teaspoonfuls onto the baking sheets, leaving an inch or so between the cookies. Bake in the middle of the oven for about 15 minutes, or until the cookies are firm to the touch and light brown. Transfer them to a cake rack to cool, and proceed with the remaining batches, coating the baking sheets with a little butter each time. If you like, you may brush the cookies while still warm with the almond glaze for _Honigkuchen_, Honey Cake. _Pfeffern?sse_ can be stored for 6 to 8 weeks in tightly sealed jars or tins. Makes about 30 cookies. They tend to be covered with sugar glaze (powdered sugar and water solution). (2) 1/3 cup dark corn syrup 1/4 cup honey 1/4 cup sugar 1/4 cup shortening 1 beaten egg 2 1/4 cups flour 1/2 teaspoon baking soda 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon powdered sugar Melt the corn syrup, honey, sugar and shortening in a medium heavy saucepan until the shortening melts and the sugar dissolves. Cool until barely lukewarm. In a large bowl, beat the egg, then add the corn-syrup mixture. In a small bowl, whisk together the flour and spices. Mix the flour into the corn-syrup mixture until well blended. Dough can be chilled at this time to develop flavor for up to 48 hours. Preheat oven to 375 degrees and lightly grease cookie sheets. Taking one tablespoon of dough for each cookie, roll into balls between the palms of your hands and place on prepared cookie sheets. Bake for eight to 10 minutes, or until just pale golden. Cool on wire racks and dust with powdered sugar. Store in airtight containers. PEPERNOTEN (Gingerbread Nuts, Dutch) 150 g self raising flour 75 g castor sugar (the brown variety, if possible) 90 g butter 2 tbsp milk 3 teaspoon _speculaaskruiden_ (if you can get this mixture) _Speculaaskruiden_ is a mixture of cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, pimento, mace, ground ginger, and cardamom, but leaving out some of the more exotic spices will not be disastrous. Mix ingredients into a dough that can be easily managed (add a little more milk if too crumbly, a little more flour if too wet). Form into balls the size of a small marble, Put them on a greased baking tray in the middle of a pre-heated oven (150'C) for about 15-20 minutes. Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 00:22:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2002 17:22:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 03.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt platt at HOLGER-WEIGELT.DE Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] >From: Eldo Neufeld >Subject: LL-L Festivals > >Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern >Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house >singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In >Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at >Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P???n??? (Ger: >Pfeffern??????, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might >possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and >"P???n???" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no >mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P???n?? (after >baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites >everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around >Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. > >Eldo Neufeld >4040 Blenheim St. >Vancouver, BC V6L 2Y9 >Tel: (604) 738-4378 Hello Eldo ! When I wrote about >gingernuts< it was because I didn't know a better translation for our Eastern Friesland LS word >pe:perno"o"ten< (~e:~ is a long ~e~ and ~o"~ is o-Umlaut - You know the problems with displaying diacritics in my postings !?). Of course >pe:perno"o"ten< is the same word as Your >Pa"pana"t< (German: Pfeffern??sse). They are a kind of spiced cookies, very solid. Unfortunately I don't know the recipe but I'll hear around. Kind regards Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Delectables PEPPERN??T - PFEFFERN?SSE (Gingerbread Nuts, German) (1) Soft butter 4 cup all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon double-acting baking powder 1 teaspoon ground cloves 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 1/2 teaspoon ground cinnamon 3/4 cup honey 1 cup dark corn syrup 3/4 cup sugar 2 tablespoon butter 1 tablespoon lard (optional) Preheat the oven to 400 degrees (F). Coat two large baking sheets lightly with butter. Combine the flour, baking powder, cloves, allspice and cinnamon in a bowl, and set aside. In a deep, heavy 5- to 6-quart saucepan, bring the honey, corn syrup and sugar to a boil over moderate heat, stirring until the sugar dissolves. Reduce the heat to low and simmer, uncovered, for 5 minutes. Remove the pan from the heat, add the butter and lard, and stir until melted. Beat in the flour mixture, a cup so at a time. When the batter is smooth, drop it by teaspoonfuls onto the baking sheets, leaving an inch or so between the cookies. Bake in the middle of the oven for about 15 minutes, or until the cookies are firm to the touch and light brown. Transfer them to a cake rack to cool, and proceed with the remaining batches, coating the baking sheets with a little butter each time. If you like, you may brush the cookies while still warm with the almond glaze for _Honigkuchen_, Honey Cake. _Pfeffern?sse_ can be stored for 6 to 8 weeks in tightly sealed jars or tins. Makes about 30 cookies. They tend to be covered with sugar glaze (powdered sugar and water solution). (2) 1/3 cup dark corn syrup 1/4 cup honey 1/4 cup sugar 1/4 cup shortening 1 beaten egg 2 1/4 cups flour 1/2 teaspoon baking soda 1/2 teaspoon ground allspice 1/4 teaspoon ground cinnamon powdered sugar Melt the corn syrup, honey, sugar and shortening in a medium heavy saucepan until the shortening melts and the sugar dissolves. Cool until barely lukewarm. In a large bowl, beat the egg, then add the corn-syrup mixture. In a small bowl, whisk together the flour and spices. Mix the flour into the corn-syrup mixture until well blended. Dough can be chilled at this time to develop flavor for up to 48 hours. Preheat oven to 375 degrees and lightly grease cookie sheets. Taking one tablespoon of dough for each cookie, roll into balls between the palms of your hands and place on prepared cookie sheets. Bake for eight to 10 minutes, or until just pale golden. Cool on wire racks and dust with powdered sugar. Store in airtight containers. PEPERNOTEN (Gingerbread Nuts, Dutch) 150 g self raising flour 75 g castor sugar (the brown variety, if possible) 90 g butter 2 tbsp milk 3 teaspoon _speculaaskruiden_ (if you can get this mixture) _Speculaaskruiden_ is a mixture of cinnamon, nutmeg, cloves, pimento, mace, ground ginger, and cardamom, but leaving out some of the more exotic spices will not be disastrous. Mix ingredients into a dough that can be easily managed (add a little more milk if too crumbly, a little more flour if too wet). Form into balls the size of a small marble, Put them on a greased baking tray in the middle of a pre-heated oven (150'C) for about 15-20 minutes. Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 14:22:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:22:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.04 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Vlaams enz. Hoi Marco, Misschien een idee dat je een aanvullend stuk over 'naamgeving' of iets dergelijks schrijft (een bewerking van wat je hieronder hebt geschreven), dan kunnen we dat toevoegen aan de pagina over Vlaams. Ron's stuk over Nedersaksisch heeft ook een paragraaf over naamgeving, dus misschien in die trant... Wellicht kun je wat kortsluiten met de auteur, Luc Vanbrabant? groeten, Mathieu Aanhalen Marco Evenhuis : > Hoi, > > > Ik ook! Vrij lastig dat hij enerzijds taalkundig een overeenkomst met > Zeeuws > > beschijft, maar politiek gezien beschouwd hij het algemene Belgische > Nederlands > > ??k als Vlaams... > > Precies. En de aloude aaneensmeding van Oost- en West-Vlaams is > taalkundig > totale onzin. Zelfs de redacteuren van het Woordenboek van de Vlaamse > Dialecten geven in inleidingen op hun werk grif toe dat taalkundige > overeenkomsten binnen hun werkgebied (Frans-, West-, Zeeuws- en > Oost-Vlaanderen) minder belangrijk zijn dan het feit dat al deze > gebieden > tesamen ooit het Nederlandstalige deel van het graafschap Vlaanderen > vormden. > West-Vlaanderen, Frans-Vlaanderen en Zeeland zijn taalkundig gezien nog > nauwer verwant dan de meeste Nedersaksische dialecten. Het Oost-Vlaams > verschilt m??r van het zuid-Brabants dan het Noord-Brabants dat doet, > maar > de verschillen met Zeeuws/West-vlaams zijn nog veel groter. > > Het zal nog wel wat kunst- en vliegwerk vergen om dat op de site tot > ieders > tevredenheid recht te breien. De hamvraag luidt uiteraard: van welke > bron of > welke auteur ga je uit en hoeveel belang hecht je aan persoonlijke > opvattingen? > > > > Ook omdat het hele Zeeuws/West-Vlaamse-Vlaamse verhaal nu al voor > een > > > aantal > > > vervelende inconsistenties op de site heeft gezorgd. > > > > Inderdaad, want moet Vlaams nu ook als aparte taal genoemd worden? > Terwijl > > Vlaams (als in: Oost-Vlaams) wordt gezien als een belangrijke > bouwsteen > van de > > Nederlandse standaardtaal. > > Nog even in het kort mijn idee: West-Vlaams, Frans-Vlaams, West- en > Midden-Zeeuws-Vlaams en Zeeuws vormen samen de Friso-Frankische > zuidwestgroep van de Nederlandse taalvarianten. Oost-Vlaams is een > Frankisch > overgangsgebied tussen West-Vlaams/Zeeuws en Brabants, maar sluit > zuiver > taalkundig gezien meer bij het (eveneens Frankische) Brabants dan bij > het > West-Vlaams/Zeeuws aan. > Aardig ijkpunt: Zeeuwen en West-Vlamingen doen aan code-switching > wanneer > zij geconfronteerd worden met een spreker van het Standaardnederlands > (ze > schakelen dus tussen twee min of meer 'zuivere' taalvarianten). > Oost-Vlamingen passen hun taal, net als Brabanders, in stapjes aan aan > de > gesprekspartner. Maw, iemand kan wel een b??tje of een beetje veel > Oost-Vlaams of Brabants praten (en het gewoon Oost-Vlaams of Brabants > noemen > bovendien), maar met Zeeuws en West-Vlaams is dat onmogelijk. Je spreekt > ?f > Zeeuws ?f AN. Er is geen tussenweg. Dat er mensen zijn, die zich in het > AN > niet altijd evengoed weten te redden, is een heel andere kwestie. > > Probleem blijft natuurlijk dat het begrip Vlaams zowel wordt gebruikt > voor > de Zuid-Nederlandse standaardtaal als (door de sprekers) het Oost- ?n > het > West-Vlaams. Sprekers maken dus voor wat betreft de benaming van hun > taal > geen onderscheid tussen Oost en West, alhoewel de jongere generaties > West-Vlamingen steeds vaker een voorkeur voor 'West-Vlaams' boven > 'Vlaams' > laten zien. In Oost-Vlaanderen weet ik niet precies hoe dat laatste met > de > jongste generaties precies zit. > > Afijn, we komen er wel uit. Groeten, > > Marco ---------- From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.03 (05) [D] Ik schreef: > > Zou dat laatste niet vooral veroorzaakt > > worden door de Franse invloed op het > > Vlaams in plaats van een Germaans- > > Frankisch substraat in het Frans? Ik be- > > doel, wanneer ik naar mijn eigen Zeeuws > > kijk, daar bestaan lijsten van met honder- > > den Zeeuwse woorden van Franse kom- > > af. Zou het aantal Franse leenwoorden > > naar het zuiden toe geen veelvoud zijn > > van wat er hier, waar het Frans nooit een > > rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld, > > al niet te vinden is? Floor van Lamoen schreef: > Ik onderschrijf ten volle jouw suggestie dat de overeenkomst tussen > Vlaams en Frans wel eens voor een aardig deel zou kunnen zijn ontstaan > door invloed van Frans op het Vlaams. Maar de opmerking dat Frans hier > "nooit een rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld" lijkt me wat kort > door de bocht. Ten eerste natuurlijk op bestuurlijk niveau wel, ten > tweede via handel ook wel, en ten derde zijn er in Zeeland dacht ik > behoorlijk wat Hugenoten neergestreken. Beste Floor, Inderdaad, 'geen rol van betekenis' is inderdaad wat overdreven. Toch durf ik te betwijfelen of het gebruik van Frans in sommige bestuurlijke en/of aristocratische kringen hier in Zeeland van dien aard was, dat dat enige weerslag van beteke- nis heeft gehad op de volkstaal. De invloed van de handel lijkt me in dit verband zelfs te verwaarlozen, gezien de handelspartners van Zeeland door de eeuwen heen. De invloed van de Hugenoten is echter een stuk interessanter. Hoewel de instroom van Hugeno- ten (vooral na het Edict van Nantes; 1648?) in getal (relatief) vergelijkbaar is met recente immi- gratiestromen en net als bij diezelfde recente im- migranten de oorspronkelijke moedertaal van de Hugenoten in drie, hooguit vier generaties is ver- dwenen, was hun economische ?n maatschappe- lijk-culturele invloed waarschijnlijk veel groter dan die van andere immigratiestromen. Even een hele simpele vergelijking om dit te illu- streren: hoe groot de invloed van de Franstalige Hugenoten op de lokale omgangstaal is, is onbe- kend, maar je mag toch aannemen dat zeker een deel van de Franse leenwoorden in het Zeeuws van deze groep afkomstig is. Die invloed moet dan in een tijdsbestek van drie ? vier generaties gerealiseerd zijn. Hier op Souburg zijn zo'n vijftig jaar geleden enkele honderden Molukkers neergestreken op een bevolking van (toen) ongeveer 4.500. In getal deden ze wat dat betreft ook relatief gezien ongetwijfeld niet onder voor het aantal Huge- noten een paar eeuwen eerder. Toch geloof ik niet dat er ook maar ??n Moluks-Maleis woord in de lokale omgangstaal is doorgedrongen. En dat terwijl ondertussen de derde generatie Moluk- kers volwassen is en zich een vierde generatie aan- dient. Samenvattend: de rol van het Frans in Zeeland is naar mijn bescheiden mening weliswaar nooit echt groot geweest (zeker niet in vergelijkin met Vlaanderen; en daar is deze discussie tenslotte mee begonnen), maar de waarschijnlijke invloed van de Franstalige Hugenoten op onze taal (hoe- wel nooit onderzocht en gekwantificeerd) is naar mijn idee in vergelijking met andere factoren (Franstalige adel en bestuurslieden, handel, 'door- stroom' van Franse woorden via Picardi? en Vlaan- deren, etc.) buitenproportioneel groot. Wellicht dat de Zeeuwen van weleer opkeken tegen deze 'verlichte' nieuwkomers? Met groeten, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 14:29:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 07:29:23 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (04) [E] Hi George, the first term that springs to mind would be the Dutch "poes", similar to the English "pussycat". But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told us that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, I haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). That certainly explains what my three cats keep trying to tell me!! Cheers, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Gabriele wrote: > But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told us > that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, I > haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). Wolof _mew_ 'milk' ('Cat' is _moos_.) Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 16:06:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 09:06:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (02) [E] Ron Haan wrote: > Wolof _mew_ 'milk' > > ('Cat' is _moos_.) Ron, is there a language you DON'T speak?? Forgive the silly question - of course there isn't!! :-) That gives the name of my translation bureau - Global Moose - a whole new meaning... I think my cats will want me to drop the final "e" now. There's also the German "Mieze" for cat; doesn't that have a Lower Saxon equivalent, too? Regards, Gabriele Kahn > From: Global Moose Translations > Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.03 (04) [E] > > Hi George, > > the first term that springs to mind would be the Dutch "poes", similar to > the English "pussycat". > > But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told us > that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, I > haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). That certainly > explains what my three cats keep trying to tell me!! > > Cheers, > Gabriele Kahn > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com > Subject: Lexicon > > Gabriele wrote: > > > But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told > us > > that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, > I > > haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). > > Wolof _mew_ 'milk' > > ('Cat' is _moos_.) > > Cheers! > Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Gabriele wrote: > Ron, is there a language you DON'T speak?? > Forgive the silly question - of course there isn't!! :-) Gabriele, come on now! Of course I don't *speak* that many! In my case it's more a matter of theory, memory, connections and resource availability, accumulated over more years than I care to think about. It also so happens that I have Wolof-speaking Senegalese acquaintances. (Wolof is spoken in the Gambia as well.) > That gives the name of my translation bureau - Global Moose - a whole new > meaning... I think my cats will want me to drop the final "e" now. Right. Unfortunately, Wolof _o_ is pronounced as in _pot_, so _moos_ sounds like "moss" with vowel doubling or lengthening. Sorry about that, but cheer up! Here comes the consolation prize: Wolof _muus_, pronounced pretty much like Lowlands Saxon _Muus_ 'mouse', also means 'cat' (dialectal variant), and this word is also used to call cats (like "Come here, Pussy, Pussy!"). Back to the *European* Lowlands, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the basic word for 'cat' is _Katt_ ~ _kat_ ([kat]). You can also say _Muuschkatt_ (['mu:Skat]), _Muusch_ ([mu:S]), _Muuskatt_ (['mu:skat]), or _Puus_ ([pu:s]), or you can use the nickname _B??nhaas'_ (['b?:nhQ:.z] ~ ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 18:13:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:13:10 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (04) [D/E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Reinhard wrote: > Back to the *European* Lowlands, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the basic > word for 'cat' is _Katt_ ~ _kat_ ([kat]). You can also say _Muuschkatt_ > (['mu:Skat]), _Muusch_ ([mu:S]), _Muuskatt_ (['mu:skat]), or _Puus_ > ([pu:s]), or you can use the nickname _B??nhaas'_ (['b?:nhQ:.z] ~ > ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). Dat is interessant, want in het Nederlands hebben we het woord 'beunhaas' met dezelfde oorspronkelijke betekenis (attic hare) maar het duidt nu iemand aan die een bepaald beroep verricht in z'n vrije tijd zonder de juiste opleiding of papieren. Er is zelfs een werkwoord 'beunhazen'. Gustaaf ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Beste Gustaaf, Nipp un nau dats?lvige Bed?den kann neddersassisch/nedderd??tsch _B??nhaas'_ ~ _B?hnhaas' (nedderlandsch schreven "beunhaoz" mit 't "ao" bes?nners lang) ook hebben! Up ("Hoog"-)D??tsch kann 'n dat as "Pfuscher" or "unz?nftiger Handwerker" ?versetten. Man vun'n Verb heff ik noch niks h??rt. Kann 't liekers geven. Folks, Gustaaf and I noticed that the nickname for 'cat' (_B??nhaas'_ "attic hare") in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) can in both Dutch and LS also mean 'tinker', 'boggler', anything like 'barely qualified/trained amateur (who works in the attic, D _beun_, LS _B??n_)'. In Dutch (and in LS?) there is even a derived verb! Groetjes/Kumpelmenten, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 18:55:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 11:55:25 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: Kakatoe-Kakadu Hi Ron-of Many-Languages Heartened by the latest exchanges about Wolof, I dare to ask again a question that may have got lost in the latest week or so's mail: According to my Oxford Etymological the word _cockatoo_ comes from Malay _kakatua_ (mening "big parrot"), the English rendering possibly influenced by another bird's name, the cock. In Danish the word is _kakadu_, contaminated by another bird, the dove, in Danish "due". It is derived from Dutch _kaketoe_, the books say. Is there any possible connection to the Australian _Kakadu_, a name for both a (recently deceased) language, a tribe/people/nation and a National Park where the bird in question lives?(also endangered, I believe). It is also spelled Gagadju and Gagudju and lies in the Northern Territory where I think Dutchmen came by in the 16th century, leaving place names like Arnhem Land behind. Or is Danish Kakadu and Australian Kakadu just a coincidence, like the Dyirbal (another recently deceased Australian lg) word for "dog" is said to be - "dog"! Ole Stig Andersen http://www.olestig.dk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Hi, Ole Stig! Now, now! I don't want to acquire a reputation I haven't really earned, even though I must confess that I did study Malay/Indonesian (only to let it gather a crust of dust and rust in the meantime). I did not ignore your posting, never ignore any. :) I've just been ruminating about it. You see, I have to confess that I--naively?--used to assume that "cockatoo," German _Kakadu_, etc., were related to the Kakadu ~ Gagadu ~ Gagadju ~ Gagudju people and the Kakadu National Park in Northern Australia. I was quite surprised when I heard that the word was supposed to have come from Malay via Dutch. Now, what is interesting is that the actual Malay/Indonesian word for 'cockatoo' and loosely also for 'parrot' is _burung kakak tua_, literally "kakak-tua bird" (with the final "k" unreleased, thus usually not perceived by European ears). Etymologically, it doesn't make any sense to me. _Kakak_ means 'elder sister' and also appears in _kakak beradik_ 'brethren', and _tua_ means 'old', 'ripe' or 'of dark color'. Of course, this _kakak tua_ could be onomatopoetic. I don't really doubt that European languages got their equivalents from Dutch via Malay/Indonesian. However, I wonder if the _kakak tua_ part in _burung kakak tua_ is native to Malay/Indonesian or is a loanword from an Australian language. I don't even know if cockatoos are native to Malaysia and Indonesia, but I do know that they are native to Australia. I don't know the Gagadu language and have no access to a reference book about it. I do know that in Warlpiri, also a northern language (Northern Territory), 'cockatoo' is _kakalyaya_. Since Malays and other people from the Indonesian Islands used to have contacts with the indigenous population of the Australian north coast for a long time (probably preceding European arrivals), which is also the reason why those people used boats and other items other Australians did not know, I don't consider it impossible that _kaka tua_ was the Indonesian rendering of the Gagadu people's name, thus _burung kakak tua_ *"Gagadu bird". Just a wild guess ... Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 20:58:47 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 13:58:47 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.04 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, Here's some administrative business. No, don't leave yet! Underneath the routine stuff is an "exciting" piece of news. (1) Since my last administrative message we have been joined by people from the following places: Norway: Oslo [1] United Kingdom: England: Leicestershire: Ashby de la Zouch [1] ? [1] United States of America: Arizona: Chandler [1] California: Slo [1] Mississippi: Water Valley [1] Utah: Salt Lake City [1] (2) On this list we deal with various language varieties and list words that are "foreign" to whatever language version of software you may be using. A couple of you use a "naughty language filter," which I can understand, especially if you are protective of children that you give access to your computer. However, please be aware that once in a while a foreign word may sound/spell like a "naughty" word in your language, and that the respective LL-L mailings bounce back to me as rejected, apart from the fact that you do not receive the offending mailing. Just now I got one such a rejection notification. Unlike others, however, it would not tell me what the protected address is, not even in the full header. Annoying! Well, it was one of today's "Lexicon" (LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (05) [E]) mailings about the word ... I dare not write it ... for a crested bird in the parrot family. There are two possible "naughty" candidates in there, one in English and the other in Dutch. If you want to view it online, please go to http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html. (3) There are still some problems with Hotmail accounts. Rudi V?ri kindly helped me by testing what filter setting causes the problem. Our conclusion is that it's erratic and nonsensical. Banning new subscriptions of Hotmail accounts thus remains in force. (4) Today I would like to unveil our project "Lowlands Talk: An Introduction to the Language Varieties of the Lowlands." I do so somewhat reluctantly because the project is unfinished, albeit quite presentable, thanks to hard work, especially that of Mathieu van Woerkom. You can access the presentation if you go to our homepage (http://www.lowlands-l.net) and go to "Resources." The direct way is as follows: http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/ I suppose I need not say very much about it; you can tell yourselves what is there and what is still missing, and also who did or will do what (Acknowledgements), not to mention that help is still needed and how you can volunteer. Please bear in mind that some of the introductions and translations are being worked on (such as the English blurb). So keep checking. If you wish to help us, I can tell you what has not yet been started. Hopefully you will be able to tell that a few of us have done a lot of work. Praise and constructive criticism are welcome, volunteering even more. I want to thank all of you who have helped with the project, especially Onze Mathieu, Sandy Fleming and Roman Laryushkin, who, with yours truly, have been shouldering the lion share of the work so far. Friendly regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 4 21:08:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 14:08:28 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (07) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (05) [E] Reinhard wrote: > You see, I have to confess that I--naively?--used to > assume that "cockatoo," German _Kakadu_, etc., were related to the Kakadu ~ > Gagadu ~ Gagadju ~ Gagudju people and the Kakadu National Park in Northern > Australia. Same here, and I still think this would be too much of a coincidence. This reminds me of a Neerlands Hoop skit in the early seventies feat- uring an Indian (Native American) tribe and their "zwijgzame opperhoofd Kaketoe". Sorry the pun is untranslatable. Lest there be any doubt, I am not suggesting this as an alternative etymology ... Gustaaf Neerlands Hoop was a famous Dutch cabaret duo of the 1970's zwijgzaam = silent opperhoofd = chief Kaketoe ~ Kaken toe = jaws closed ---------- From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Ron, Gabriele, Leeglanners, Ron wrote as an answer on Gabriele's frolicsomeness (the first time I heard about the existence of a word like this [except some dog pellets], looking into my dic! It's a really funny and basic expression!): >or you can use the nickname _B??nhaas'_ (['b?:nhQ:.z] ~ > ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). Don't try a new shifting this steeple way, please, in Your "spheric" exchanges! *s* De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat w??er ne opp 'n B??*n*, mann opp 'n B??*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "B??n" in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? Mookt blaut wieter sau! :-) Kumpelmenten noo Jau beid! Fiete. (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." ("Iced Earth") ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Fiete: > De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat w??er ne opp 'n B??*n*, mann opp 'n > B??*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "B??n" in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? Klaar heett dat "B??n", tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _B??m_ heff ik bitherto nich maal in W??rb?ker funnen. Mi d?cht, dat Woord "B??n" keem vun _boden_ > _b?den_ af. Gr?tens, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: Un wat is daar "spheric" an? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 00:25:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2002 17:25:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (08) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 04.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (07) [E/LS] Ron schreef: > Klaar heett dat "B??n", tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel > snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _B??m_ heff ik > bitherto nich maal in W??rb?ker funnen. Mi d?cht, dat Woord "B??n" keem vun > _boden_ > _b?den_ af. That's funny, because they call the attic "B?hne" in the German Southwest (Schwaben), and I had never heard of a similar expression. In High German, "B?hne" means "stage", and I was very confused when I moved to Ulm 16 years ago to hear prospective landlords tell me the apartment came with a stage. Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Leeive Ron, Du hesst schreeven >> De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat w??er ne opp 'n B??*n*, mann opp 'n >> B??*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "B??*n in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? >Klaar heett dat "B??*n*, tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel >snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _B??*m* heff ik >bitherto nich maal in W??rbeukers funnen. Mi d?cht dat Woord "B??*n* keem vun >_boden_ > _b?den_ af. > >Reinhard/Ron Mookst mi heel d??rnein! Nee- ick b?nn recht seeker, hier, an dennen "beusen", ook "leeigen" *s* Innen vonne Elv, waard "B??(be)m" seggt, as (E) "bottom" (I assume, cognate of [UG] "Boden"). W??rb??kers! Hah! Is nu' tau loot, mien Mentors antauraupen. Schull ick opp'n verkeihrten Damper ween, schall ick mi woll monnen frauh foors melln! >P.S.: Un wat is daar "spheric" an? Door- gonnix! Mann- Jie beeid' snackt un schrievt sau 'n heel best *outraged* Ingelt (Ron: (E) "albeit"- heff 'ck in 15 Johrn Utbillen un Uutland keen einkeld Mool heurt), door s?cht 'n "Schaul-Ingelten" as ick leeigh bi uut! Mann- ick kann't woll leesn, heff mien Spooss dooran, un- dauht mi eein Gefalln: wieter sau! Allerbest Kumpelmenten in 't Huus: Fiete. ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (07) [E/LS] From: Daniel Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subject: Lexicon > Fiete: > De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat w??er ne opp 'n B??*n*, mann opp 'n > B??*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "B??n" in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? > Ron: > Klaar heett dat "B??n", tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel > snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _B??m_ heff ik > bitherto nich maal in W??rb?ker funnen. Mi d?cht, dat Woord "B??n" keem > > vun > _boden_ > _b?den_ af. Leve Ron, Ik gl??v wat "b??n" ?llerhaftiger is as "boden" > "b?den" mid /d/- utfall. Vergliik mhd. / mnd. , laat up ahd * sluten. Verwandschup mid gift dat wol, avers gaait dat veel wider tr?g, denk ik, vergliik ags. "schipsbodden". "B??n" is also in de like familie, avers nich dat like woord as "bodden". In de Baverd??tsch mundaarden segt man to`n bispeel in`t Schw?bisch "B?hne" (or /bi:n(e)/) un heet ook "b??n". Dat etymoloogsche w??rbook vun Kluge snakt daar ook vun, wat germ. * mit ?llerhaftige utfall vun en dentaal v??r *bhu(dh)ni? upkeem. Versipt is wol ook Awestisch buna "bodden", un Ooldirisch bun "dat ?nnere en". Gr?tens, Dan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Gabriele un Daniel, mit "B??n" un _B?hne_ m??gt Ji wull recht hebben! Un Fiete, maak Du ook so wieder! Man Di bruuk ik sachs den Mood nich steilen. Gr?tens, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 18:22:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:22:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.02 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Afrikaans tapes etc. Hi! Many thanks to those who answered my questions about cat terms and Afrikaans phonetics. I hope I can be forgiven if I seemed too strident on the topic of not starting with the lawyers and politicians in language preservation. If I came off as insensitive in any way - that was NOT my intention. My apologies. Does anyone have a good source for Afrikaans sound recordings - tapes, cds, lps or videos? I hope you will all take a look at Afrikaans at some point. It is full of wonderfully humorous expressions. (many perhaps common to Dutch, Vlaams and Platt?) In English we say for an unintentional giving away of a secret "He let the cat out of the bag." In Afrikaans it is "Hy het die aap uit die mou laat kom."" He has let the ape come out of the sleeve." How can you not love a language in which porcupine comes out as "skekelvark" or the equally colourful "ystervark?" Best to all George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 18:25:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:25:59 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.02 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] Your question has intrigued me. I must tell you that I had assumed until recently that all Mennonites in North America were derived from South Germany and spoke variants of Hochdeutsch. I live in central Pennsylvania, an area that has been settled by people from Germany for the last 300 years or so. In this area, I have many personal contacts in the Team Mennonite community, as well as a few in the Old Order Amish community. The main difference between the two, as far as I can see, is that Amish do not use electricity and tractors, whereas the Team Mennonites use both. However, both use only horse drawn buggies for personal transportation. We use a Mennonite family to occasionally babysit our granddaughter and I can't tell you how excited she was several weeks ago to go shopping in a horse drawn buggy. The daily language of both communities is "Pennsylvania Dutch (Deutsch)". If you really want to be sure of communicating, that is the language that you would use here. This language is based on Schwaebisch, since the ancestors of most of these people came from Schwaben, Switzerland and Elsass. Anyway, I asked several of these families about Pfeffernuesse. They had all heard about them but had never eaten them. This amazed me because I cannot imagine Christmas without them. I can only assume that Pfeffernuesse had not become a part of the cultural tradition in South Germany at the time that their ancestors left there. Perhaps I will try again, asking for Paepanaet, this time. Maybe they know them under that name, but I somehow doubt it. A useful source of information might be the newspaper "Die Bootschaft", which is aimed at Mennonites and Amish. I don't know if this paper reaches Canada or not but I would be happy to provide you with the address. Tom\ From: Eldo Neufeld Subject: LL-L Festivals Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in Eastern Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P?pan?t" (Ger: Pfeffern?sse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and "P?pan?t?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P?pan?t (after baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. Eldo Neufeld 4040 Blenheim St. Vancouver, BC V6L 2Y9 Tel: (604) 738-4378 e-mail: greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] > From: Eldo Neufeld > Subject: LL-L Festivals > > Holger Weigelt (in answering Thomas Byro) wrote about a festival in > Eastern > Friesland called "St. Martin," in which children go from house to house > singing, and receive gifts, among them traditional "gingernuts." In > Mennonite Plautdietsch tradition, a common reward, especially at > Christmastime, for such activity would be what were called "P?pan?t" > (Ger: > Pfeffern?sse, Eng: pepper- nuts). Does anyone know whether there might > possibly be any kind of historical connection between "gingernuts" and > "P?pan?t?" The Mennonite Community Cookbook (c.1950) recipe makes no > mention of pepper, but does call for peppermint extract. P?pan?t > (after > baking) are small, hard, candy-like, confections beloved of Mennonites > everywhere (whether Plautdietsch-speaking or not!), primarily around > Christmastime. Any thoughts on the subject would be welcomed. > > Eldo Neufeld > Dear Eldo, In the coast area of West Flanders the feest of "Sinte Moarten" is also well known. Children then go through the villages with a carved sugar beet and a light within. Sinte maorten is also the man who brings a lot of presents (like "Sinterklaas"). Among those gifts there was alwaeys some food (especially in times when there was a lot of poverty)One of the items was a "peperkoek"(E: gingerbread) Peperkoek meaning literally spiced cake. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 18:31:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:31:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: Over: Vlaams en zo, termen Matthieu van Woerkom pleit voor een aanvullend stuk over naamgeving; altijd heel nuttig voor informatie en -met name- voor gedachtenaanscherping. Bij al deze deskundigheid wil ik graag een kleine gedachte kwijt. Marco Evenhuis gebruikt de term "Friso-Frankisch" en hier twijfel ik bij het gebruik van "Friso". Bij deze discussies gaan de situaties van vroeger en heden steeds rakelings langs elkaar heen; en ik ben niet gelukkig met het gebruik van "Friso". Ter opfrissing van ons geheugen: een romeins geschiedschrijver gebruikt de term "Fries" omdat bij de kust een volk woonde dat de haren gekruld droeg [dus dit woord zit ook in 'friseur']. Heel veel later zeiden mensen ergens anders: deze Friezen zijn wij en wij wonen in Friesland. [En heel veel 'specialiteiten' in de historische taalkunde van het Fries zouden minder speciaal zijn wanneer met het Fries gewoon tot het Noord-Germaans zou rekenen]. Zou met het woord Friso- hier niet gebruiken, dan volgt: hoe noem je het dan? Vr. gr. Theo Homan ===== Theo Homan - Verkopende Teksten 050 571 81 38 freelance copywriting direct marketing ideeen & concepten folders, catalogi, brochures, print ads verkopende brieven www.theohoman.8m.com ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 18:45:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:45:14 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.02 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.09.26 (08) [E] >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Language changes > >Lowlanders, > >It seems to me that there is a trend in English, at least in American >English varieties, toward avoiding the words "father" and "mother" and to >use in their places "mom" and "dad", also more and more often "mom and dad" >in place of "parents." > >This makes me want to ask if you have noticed similar trends in other >varieties of English and in other Lowlands languages (e.g., "mother" ~> >"mum", "father" ~> "dad" in other forms of English, and/or _mither_ ~> >_mum_, _faither_ ~> _dad_ in Scots). Outside the Lowlands area but within >the Germanic group, I noticed that in Modern Icelandic _mamma_ and _pabbi_ >are often used where I would expect _m????_ 'mother' and _fa???Y 'father' >respectively, similarly _mame_ and _tate_ in place of (rather serious and >distant) _muter_ 'mother' and _foter_ 'father' respectively in Yiddish, and, >back in the Lowlands fold, oftentimes _ma_ and _pa_ where I would expect >_vader_ and _moer_ respectively in Afrikaans. > >I wonder if under similar circumstances the old words for (i.e., the >cognates of) 'mother' and 'father' (Old Frisian _moder_ and _fader_) >eventually came to be replaced by _mem_ and _heit_ in Westerlauwer ("West") >Frisian (similarly in other Frisian varieties?). > >I feel that in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Moder_ ['mO.Ud3] ~ _Mudder_ >['mUd3] ~ [mUr3] 'mother' and _Vadder_ ['fad3] ~ ['far3] 'father' still have >very strong positions, also as terms of address, and that _Mamma_ ['ma.ma] >'mom' and _Pappa_ ['papa] ~ ['paba] 'dad' are not all that often heard, at >least not in traditional speaker circles, may well have rubbed off from >German, where they are still mostly used as terms of address/endearment and >in talking with children or among ones own relatives. > >In Missingsch (i.e., German on Lowlands Saxon substrate) many people, >especially males, refer to and in some families even address their fathers >by means of _Ald?Y (= Standard German _Alter_ 'old guy'), thus something >like '(my) old man'. Some people, again mostly males, also use it to >address friends (e.g., _Na, Ald??Y 'What's up, dude?'), thus, similar to >_Mack?Y (= LS _Macker_). I have also heard it used to denote 'husband' >(e.g., _Oh ha, oh ha! Wenn das ihr Ald? ?auskricht!_ 'Boy, oh boy! Wait till >her hubby finds out!'), similarly _Alde_ for 'wife', sometimes '(steady) >girlfriend'. Outside of that, _Ald?Y and _Alde_, and also _Macker_, are >likely to sound derogatory or hostile (_Kuck ma die Alde da!_ 'Look at that >chick over there!', _Oi, Ald?? Was kucksu uns so bescheu?? an?_ 'Hey, dude! >What do you think you are look at (= at us)?', _Eh, komm ma mit raus, Mack ?? >Denn gieps Schl???._ 'Eh, come on outside, dude! Then I'll beat you up.'). >(These examples are in Hamburg Missingsch.) > >Any responses, information, corrections or additions would be appreciated. > >Regards, >Reinhard/Ron Moin Ron ! In our Eastern Friesland Platt we have several words to adress parents. >mauder< and >fo??der< have the parallel words >mo??r< and >fo??r<. In a more familiar context we use >ma^m< and >pa^<. The general term is >ollen< (parents) or >folk<. The last sometimes is used for the further family or kinship, too. For father sometimes the term >oel< is used (ex.: mi:n oel is up tuer = my father isn't at home / is walking around / is out for a beer etc.). An old term for father is >ba"ep< or >baeaep< (~ae~ = ae-ligature) but I cannot remember to have heard it any more since more than twenty years and only a few speakers used it then. The use of >ma^m< and >pa^< adressing ones parents is restricted to the families and used to talk about them just with some very close friends. Outside these contextes only the other words are in use with the exception of >oel<. Kumpelment Holger ---------- From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (02) [E] >But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told us >that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, I >haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). That certainly >explains what my three cats keep trying to tell me!! > >Cheers, >Gabriele Kahn > >Gabriele wrote: > >> But, speaking about cats: we just had a houseguest from Senegal who told >us >> that the word for "milk" in her native language, Wolof, is "miaou" (sorry, >I >> haven't seen the word written, but that's how it sounds). > >Wolof _mew_ 'milk' > >('Cat' is _moos_.) > >Cheers! >Reinhard/Ron Hello Ron ! Is this Wolof word >mew< for milk an English loan (the ~w~ being a substitute for the dark ~l~ resp. the ~lk~) ? Regards Holger ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] cat names... and b?n Hi, Cat names. We are owned by a cat too here in our house. Cats have a lot of bad names. In Dutch kat, in Dalland dialect katte. They have bad names like Dakhaas , roof hare, riooltijger , gutter tiger, let me think.. well it depends , if you are a bird keeper, you got many more names, if you are a cat owner you call the cat poes. What ever you call them they listen very well, but they don't obey. About b?n there is a word in dutch ..a part of a fishing boat is called bun, or in dialect b?n , the part on the bottom of the ship where you keep live fish, it has holes, so that the water comes in it's a compartment in the middle of the boat. Visb?n, or visbun. That has probably connections with the word bodem than? Bottom, german boden? Moi! Wim. [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Theo Homan Subject: Kakatu, etc.; Loans in Austral. Aborig. ll Several times now there have been some talk about possible loans [from Dutch] in aborig. ll of Australia. I remember that Austral. scholars doing a lot of work in North Australia were surprised to find Dutch loanwords in aborig. ll. Their conclusion: natives of the Indonesian archipel always used to visit North Australia by boat. My note: Long ago I made the conclusion that water never is a borderline for language- / geolect-influence; but mountain-ridges/chains are. Source: The Aboriginal Australian in North Eastern Arnhem Land Author: Don Williams Publisher: The Curriculum Development Centre, Canberra, Australia [Please, no misunderstanding: I have to brush up my 'North Eastern Arnhem Aboriginialian' because I never met such a native in pub or supermarket in my rural villagetown.] vr.gr. Theo Homan ================================= REFERRING TO: From: Ole Stig Andersen Subject: Kakatoe-Kakadu Hi Ron-of Many-Languages Heartened by the latest exchanges about Wolof, I dare to ask again a question that may have got lost in the latest week or so's mail: According to my Oxford Etymological the word _cockatoo_ comes from Malay _kakatua_ (mening "big parrot"), the English rendering possibly influenced by another bird's name, the cock. In Danish the word is _kakadu_, contaminated by another bird, the dove, in Danish "due". It is derived from Dutch _kaketoe_, the books say. Is there any possible connection to the Australian _Kakadu_, a name for both a (recently deceased) language, a tribe/people/nation and a National Park where the bird in question lives?(also endangered, I believe). It is also spelled Gagadju and Gagudju and lies in the Northern Territory where I think Dutchmen came by in the 16th century, leaving place names like Arnhem Land behind. Or is Danish Kakadu and Australian Kakadu just a coincidence, like the Dyirbal (another recently deceased Australian lg) word for "dog" is said to be - "dog"! Ole Stig Andersen ===== Theo Homan - Verkopende Teksten 050 571 81 38 freelance copywriting direct marketing ideeen & concepten folders, catalogi, brochures, print ads verkopende brieven www.theohoman.8m.com ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Lexicon Beste li?glanners, Let's cast a ray of light on this "beun(haas)" matter...this is what Jan de Vries thinks about it : > BEUN znw. v. 'losse planken boven de vloer', ook "viskaar" (met de bijvorm 'bun'), bij Kiliaen : > "boene", "buene" 'tabulata' en "bonne", "bunne" 'coassatio, tabulatum et fori navium', vgl; mnd. > "bone, b?ne" m.v. 'planken stelling, zoldering, zolder, verdieping', "bune" v. 'staketsel aan een > oever' (vgl. in duitse zeemanstaal "b?nn" 'beun in een schip'; ook oostfri. "b?nne"), mnd. bune, mhd. > b?ne, b?n (nhd. b?hne) 'estrade, zoldering'. Men zal wel van 'dunne plank, sliet' moeten uitgaan, vgl. > het woord "buna" 'droge stengel' in de plantnaam zw. "gr?b?na", de. dial. "graabone" (AEW 63 onder > b?a 2). Daarnaast staan nnoorw. "bunke", nde. "bynke" 'bijvoet' en nzw. dial. "bunke" 'rietsoort'. > Verder zijn te vergelijken on. "buna" als bijnaam voorkomend = nijsl. "buna" 'bot van een os', > nnoorw. "buna" 'been, pijp', ozw. "buulogger" 'voorbout van een slachtdier', nde. "bonneben" > 'scheenbeen van een slachtdier'. Deze woorden zijn moeilijk te verklaren, maar zullen wel met de > groep van "bonk" samenhangen. > FW 57 noemt nog als zwakke mogelijkheden verbinding met de wt. *bhen 'slaan', waarvoor zie : > "baan" en nog zwakker verbinding met het woord "ben" in de zin van vlechtwerk. > BEUNHAAS znw. m. sedert de 17de eeuw < nd. b?n(e)hase, dat eig. 'zolderhaas' betekent, een > spotnaam voor 'kat', dan 'arbeider die in het geheim op zolder werkt, een knoeier in zijn vak' : in > Salzburg heet de niet bij een gilde aangesloten timmerman "Dachhase" (eig. 'kat') en "Zaunhase" (eig. > 'egel') elders "balkhase" (westf. oostfri.), vgl. gron. "balkhoas", fri. "bolkhazze". In de 14de eeuw is > het woord in Duitsland een PN, sedert 1568 komt het voor in de betekenis van 'buiten het gilde > werkende kleermaker'' (vgl. hd. "b?hnhase"). Duden's Herkunftsw?rterbuch says this : > B?HNE w: Die Herkunft von mhd. b?ne "Bretterb?hne, Zimmerdecke", mnd. b?ne "bretterne > Erh?hung, Empore, Zimmerdecke", niederl. beun "bretterne Erh?hung, Bretterdiele, Steg; Decke" ist > nicht sicher gekl?rt. Vielleicht h?ngt das auf das dt. und niederl. Sprachgebiet beschr?nkte Wort mit > der Sippe von ? Boden zusammen. Das aus 'Schaub?hne' verk?rzte Wort 'B?hne' wird im 18. Jh. auf > das Podium des Schauspielers eingeschr?nkt und alsbald auch ?bertragen f?r "Theater" gebraucht. As I was quoting them, I don't want to translate their words. Slightly off the record, the bottom of an object happens to be called "boe?m" in Brabantish, "bodem" (D) ~ "fundus" (Latin) ~ "budhnas" (Old Indian), and the Dutch naval term "bodem" became French "bodine". Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Holger, > Is this Wolof word >mew< for milk an English loan (the ~w~ being a > substitute for the dark ~l~ resp. the ~lk~) ? I hardly think so, considering that traditionally any "Western" influences on the languages of Senegal etc. was French, not English. Luc, Wim, Lowlanders, Most Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects have _Bodden_ ~ _Botten_ ~ _Boddem_ for 'bottom'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 5 19:11:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:11:34 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.02 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 05.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, Since yesterday's administrative message we have been joined by one person from Cary, North Carolina, USA, and one person from Alva, Scotland. Welcome to them! I want to remind everyone that our rules and guidelines must be understood and are posted here: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm Our newly unveiled but far from completed series "Lowlands Talk" can be accessed here: http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/. Help would be appreciated. Please also note the disclaimer that basically says that Lowlands-L holds no official views and opinion but has room and appreciation for diversity, also in the series "Lowlands Talk." Please note that it is important to keep apart my two relevant email addresses. If you wish to communicate with me privately, please use my private address: sassisch at yahoo.com. If you wish to communicate with me about administrative matters, such problems with the List or your accounts, please use my administratie address: admin at lowlands-l.net. (It is also safest to send messages regarding "Lowlands Talk" to my *private* address, since they can easily be construed as intended postings.) Submissions for List postings should go to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org. Some people are still sending posting submissions to my private or administrative addresses. Please don't, unless you are a LL-L editor and have been specifically instructed to do so for certain technical reasons. Again (important): * private: sassisch at yahoo.com * administrative: admin at lowlands-l.net * LL-L posting: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org If you pay attention to these distinctions, you do not only make my life easier, but you will avoid situations in which I misconstrue private communication as posting submissions. Your cooperation would be much appreciated, as would be your forbearance and your understanding that the running of Lowlands-L, though facilitated by technological tools, relies mostly on human perception and action, and that mistakes do happen. Thanks, and best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 19:33:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:33:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.06 (01) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (08) [E/LS] Moin, Ron, W??rb??kers, Leeglanners, joo- mien Damper g?ng blauts opp de anner Sied vonne Elv, j?mmer hin un tr?ch, un Dien Damper wieter, no Omerikoo! W??er veel tau d?sser- un 's Nachts *m* un *n* tau ?nnerschieden is heel swoor *s*! Du hesst recht, un Dien W??rb??kers ook: hier waard ook "B??n" (UG) "(Dach-)Boden" (E) "loft" seggt; mann- ick heff 't ?ber d?rtig Joorn ne maarkt! Offschoonst- wi m?ssen mennigmool hin un tr?ch snacken, ?mm 't tau klooreern. De (LS) "Boon" (ook: "die[!] Grund"), (UG) "(Erd-)Boden", (E) "bottom" w??er noch stuurer; twei Meeinen tendeern tau "Boo-e-m". Is woll 'n figeliinsch' Familie(?): (LS) "Boaum, ook: Boom (sing.)" vs. "B??em (plur)", (E) "tree" vs "trees",. Wi k?emn denn no datt (LS) "booben, booven, baaven, baaben", (UG: "oben"), (E) "above, at the top", un ick f?ng an, 'n l?tt beeten kl?ftich/"klaukschietert" (b?n ick fooken, ick weit!) tau waarn: "no booben", (UG) "nach oben", (E) "to the top", un heff dennen (verkeeihrten!, ass ick nu weit,) "B??[b{e}]m" weller in 't Speel brocht- mien L?? woorn unseeker. Nee- heit "B??n"! Deiht mi leeid, Ron, sorry, leeve W??rb??kers, f??r dat Unrecht, watt ick Di un jau dittmool dauhn heff *s*! Greutens Fiete. (Friedrich W. Neumann) ----- "SOMETHING WICKED THIS WAY COMES..." ("Iced Earth") > >> De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat w??er ne opp 'n B??*n*, mann opp 'n > >> B??*m*. Or gifft ook 'n "B??*n in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? > > >Klaar heett dat "B??*n*, tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel > >snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _B??*m* heff ik > >bitherto nich maal in W??rbeukers funnen. Mi d?cht dat Woord "B??*n* keem > vun > >_boden_ > _b?den_ af. > > > >Reinhard/Ron > > Mookst mi heel d??rnein! > Nee- ick b?nn recht seeker, hier, an dennen "beusen", ook "leeigen" *s* > Innen vonne Elv, waard "B??(be)m" seggt, as (E) "bottom" (I assume, cognate > of [UG] "Boden"). > W??rb??kers! Hah! > Is nu' tau loot, mien Mentors antauraupen. Schull ick opp'n verkeihrten > Damper ween, schall ick mi woll monnen frauh foors melln!Ron wrote: > >Gabriele, come on now! Of course I don't *speak* that many! In my case >it's more a matter of theory, memory, connections and resource availability, >accumulated over more years than I care to think about. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 19:47:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:47:15 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Code switching" 2002.10.06 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] Ron wrote: > >Gabriele, come on now! Of course I don't *speak* that many! In my case >it's more a matter of theory, memory, connections and resource availability, >accumulated over more years than I care to think about. Speaking about polyglottism, has anyone else heard of Derrick Herning? He was a schoolteacher in Lerwick when I was at school - now retired - and was once in the Guiness Book of Records for being able to speak the most languages of anyone in Europe. I used to think the name 'Herning' was German - he was a teacher of German, mainly - but he actually comes from Fife. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Code switching John Magnus, I heard of this Derrick Herning and remember that he spoke 22 languages fluently--I don't know which ones--and that he won some sort of polyglott prize. I don't think this was a terribly long time ago. I think the name Herning is rather rare, but I would not be surprised to come across it as supposedly "Dutch," (North) "German" or Danish. Of course, there is a Danish city called Herning. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 19:50:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:50:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.06 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.03 (06) [E] Sandy wrote: >I already suggested the solution to this 'problem', by saying >that we need to build up a critical mass of suitable materials >until the general populace does find itself 'ignited' with an >awareness of this sort of thing. > >Books like Trainspotting and programmes like Chewin' the Fat >are deliberately written in such a way as to be understandable >by the English-speaking populace, and this is why they're widely >popular. If you're promoting Scots as a language then whatever >you produce has a built-in disadvantage because the written >language isn't taught and so can be inaccessible even for many >Scots speakers. This is the big dilemma, isn't it? If you produce Scots which is not easily understood at a casual level by English speakers, then it is dismissed as 'artificial' or such. Even linguists are guilty of a version of this mistake. In English Phonology and Phonological Theory, Roger Lass lists several examples of word forms such as _tap_, _labster_, etc, as examples of vowel changes in 'earlier Scots'. But most of these 'earlier' Scots words are familiar to me in everyday speech. This type of thinking - where 'braid' Scots is regarded as relics of 'earlier' Scots - leaves the way for the words 'Scots' to imply mainly the heavily Anglicised forms found in mostly Glasgow and Edinburgh. In other words, people from areas where Scots is most depleted regard this sort of Scots as 'contemporary' and the other forms as relics. When these forms of Scots (equivalent, I would say, to Ron's descriptions of Missingisch (sp?)) are written, it is rightly pointed out that they are little different from English. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that many of those who are at the forefront of Scots promotion actually seem to be unfamiliar with 'braid' Scots, to the extent that they are dismayed when they encounter it. Colin tells me that the SLRC produced a document which stated that the 'braid' varieties of Scots are comprehensible only to linguistic specialists! > >However, things like Colin's book gradually make better Scots >more accessible, not necessarily immediately to the general >populace but it has a good chance of raising the awareness of >more educated people such as teachers, who might then be better >equipped to point the way for others. This is the sort of thing >that can provide and awareness of Scots as high culture rather >than low. This is true. However, there is the problem - which I keep going on about - that most of the material available to educators is of the 'relexified English' sort, and even those teachers who are favourably disposed towards Scots, not knowing any better, are likely to uncritically use texts like Robertson's book on the Parliament, or Telfer's Bruce and Wallace. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 19:57:47 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:57:47 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.06 (04) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (03) [E] Theo Hofman schreef: > Matthieu van Woerkom pleit voor een aanvullend stuk > over naamgeving; altijd heel nuttig voor informatie en > -met name- voor gedachtenaanscherping. > Bij al deze deskundigheid wil ik graag een kleine > gedachte kwijt. > > Marco Evenhuis gebruikt de term "Friso-Frankisch" en > hier twijfel ik bij het gebruik van "Friso". > Bij deze discussies gaan de situaties van vroeger en > heden steeds rakelings langs elkaar heen; en ik ben > niet gelukkig met het gebruik van "Friso". > > Ter opfrissing van ons geheugen: een romeins > geschiedschrijver gebruikt de term "Fries" omdat bij > de kust een volk woonde dat de haren gekruld droeg > [dus dit woord zit ook in 'friseur']. Heel veel later > zeiden mensen ergens anders: deze Friezen zijn wij en > wij wonen in Friesland. [En heel veel 'specialiteiten' > in de historische taalkunde van het Fries zouden > minder speciaal zijn wanneer met het Fries gewoon tot > het Noord-Germaans zou rekenen]. > > Zou met het woord Friso- hier niet gebruiken, dan > volgt: hoe noem je het dan? Hoewel ik me wel iets kan voorstellen bij de bedenkingen die Theo hierboven uit ten aanzien van terminologie als 'Friso--Frankisch', geloof ik niet dat het raadzaam is om op de website van deze mailing list andere, zelf-bedachte termen te gaan gebruiken voor zaken waar al vanoudsher bepaalde, algemeen gangbare benamingen voor gebruikt worden. Ook al is zo'n benaming wellicht wat ongelukkig. In de Nederlandse taalkunde (en op veel andere terreinen) zijn de termen Fries, Saksisch en Frankisch (en combinaties daarvan) nu eenmaal gemeengoed. Het zijn bovendien bij- zonder bruikbare termen om het karakter van een bepaalde taalvariant zeer grof weer te geven. Groeten, Marco ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.03 (05) [D] > From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (10) [D/E] > >> From: Marco Evenhuis evenhuis at zeelandnet.nl >> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (06) [E] > Luc Vanbrabant: >> >>> Inderdaad, het chronologisch woordenboek geeft ons een interessante >>> analyse. Maar er worden daaruit hooguit 90 woorden vermeld. >>> Toen ik met mijn fluo-stift een etymologisch woordenboek >>> doorbladerde, >>> vond ik er toch een 400-tal. >>> Daarbij moet je ook naar de zinsconstructies zelf kijken Frans is zo >>> anders dan de andere Romaanse talen, precies door die Frankische >>> invloed. Een Franse en een Latijnse zin tonen veel minder >>> overeenkomst >>> dan een Franse en een Vlaamse zin. > > [Marco Evenhuis]: >> Zou dat laatste niet vooral veroorzaakt >> worden door de Franse invloed op het >> Vlaams in plaats van een Germaans- >> Frankisch substraat in het Frans? Ik be- >> doel, wanneer ik naar mijn eigen Zeeuws >> kijk, daar bestaan lijsten van met honder- >> den Zeeuwse woorden van Franse kom- >> af. Zou het aantal Franse leenwoorden >> naar het zuiden toe geen veelvoud zijn >> van wat er hier, waar het Frans nooit een >> rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld, >> al niet te vinden is? > > Beste Marco, > > Ik onderschrijf ten volle jouw suggestie dat de overeenkomst tussen > Vlaams en Frans wel eens voor een aardig deel zou kunnen zijn ontstaan > door invloed van Frans op het Vlaams. Maar de opmerking dat Frans hier > "nooit een rol van enige betekenis heeft gespeeld" lijkt me wat kort > door de bocht. Ten eerste natuurlijk op bestuurlijk niveau wel, ten > tweede via handel ook wel, en ten derde zijn er in Zeeland dacht ik > behoorlijk wat Hugenoten neergestreken. > > Groeten, > Floor van Lamoen. > Beste mensen, Toch niet hoor. Ik denk dat u even aan andere zaken denkt, dan diegene waar ik over aan het schrijven was. Ik blijf toch bij mij beweringen van hierboven en wel om verschillende redenen: 1/ Geschiedkundig Het Franse koningshuis is gesticht door de Diets sprekende Franken. Karel de Grote sprak een Oud-Brabants dialect en heeft in zijn rijk alle 'oude liederen' die in de volkstaal bestonden, laten noteren.Op dat moment bestond het Frans nog niet .Het oudste geschreven Frans, "l' histoire de Ste.-Eulalie" dateert van de 11de eeuw. Het is zijn zoon Lodewijk de Vrome die dat alles vernietigd heeft en het voor ons moeilijk gemaakt heeft om de oorsprong van veel Franse verhalen terug te vinden Want voor hem moest aankomende en groeiende Frans het anker worden van zijn monarchie. Als men de vroegste verhalen leest, herkent men daar direct de Germaanse oorsprong in . Alle namen zijn meestal Diets. Ik denk hierbij zeker aan "La chanson de Roland" dat duidelijk op Frankisch-Vlaamse leest geschoeid is. De Fransen hebben de Dietse oorsprong in de loop van de geschiedenis altijd maar geminimaliseerd. En de Nederlandstaligen zijn hen daarin teveel gevolgd, een paar uitzonderingen niet te na gesproken. 2/Taalkundig Natuurlijk weet ik wel dat de Franse taal een enorme invloed gehad heeft op het (West)Vlaams of het Zeeuws. Dit gebeurde echter in een tijdperk dat Vlaams geen cultuurtaal meer was, een heel stuk later dan de periode waarover ik sprak. Ik had het hier over de geboorte van het Frans en de invloed van de Frankische taal bij dit gebeuren.Het Frans is ontstaan in een Germaanse cultuur waar het Latijn een steeds grotere rol toebedeeld kreeg, en niet omgekeerd. Bij het ontstaan van een woord is het toch heel duidelijk uit welke andere taal dat eventueel komt. Het is vooral ook duidelijk dat dat omgekeerd niet het geval is.Dat Frankisch substraat is dus zeker re?el. Ik meen mij ook te herinneren dat men in het historisch woordenboek aanhaalt dat daarover zeker nog heel veel te onderzoeken valt. Als voorsmaak misschien enkele woorden uit het Franse etymologische woordenboek. Voorbeelden bij de letter "a". abandon - *band accabler - chable / cable(D V) accise - accijs (accijns)(D V) accore - schore / schor(D V) acre - acre(E V) adouber - dubban (Frankisch) affaler - afhalen (D V) agace - agaza(Germaans) agrafer - krap aigrefin- -> esclevis->skelvis(V) ale - ale (V) al?rion - adalaro (Frankisch) adelare(V) allemand - allamann (G) alleman' (V) alleu - *al-?d(Frankisch) algoed (V) all? - hallo, hello (E) amarrer - maren (D) ambassade - andbahti(Gotisch) ambacht (V) anspect - handspecke (V) arlequin - hellequin - helleke(kleine duivel ?) arquebuse - hakenbussche (G V) asple - haspel (G V) astic - stikk?n (Frankisch) stick(E) asticoter - steken (D V) atlas (het boek) naam gegeven door Mercator attacher - stake (V) aubaine - aliban (Frankisch) van een andere ban (groep) aubette - *huba(Frankisch) aubin - hobby (E) aumusse - mutse (G V) aune - elle (V) aurique - orig (D V) aurochs - oeros (G V) avachir - *vaikjan(Frankisch) weken (D V) ... En ik vergeet er waarschijnlijk nog. Wat namen de Fransen van de Franken over? -persoonsnamen namen i.v.m. ... -landbouw en veeteelt -huisconstructies -planten-en dierenwereld -administratie van leger en rechtswezen -gevoelsleven... Veel plaatsen hebben Germaanse naamtypes: -ingum -ingas inga heima -baki -tuna (ingatuna) De zinsconstructies: -adjectief voor substantief Tot halverwege Frankrijk hoor en lees je- "blanc fer - neufchateau -grande maison..." -Germaanse naam +court of +ville (voorbij Geneve wordt dat omgekeerd) -Gebruik van het onderwerp bij een persoonsvorm: je pense (tu... - il - elle - nous - vous - ils - elles) -De woordvolgorde in Franse zinnen lijkt sterker op de woordvolgorde in Germaanse zinnen dan in die van andere Romaanse talen. Een interessant boekje daarover heet: De taalgrens (Danny Lamarcq en Marc Rogge - Davidsfonds Leuven 1996). Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 20:09:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 13:09:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Mennonites" 2002.10.06 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: erek gass Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.02 (02) [E] Like Thomas, I live in South Central PA (York County), and grew up in Northern Montgomery County (Eastern PA, at the time a "Pennsylvania Dutch" area). Thomas notes that our PA Mennonites are descendants of settlers invited (by William Penn) from their homes in Alsace, Switzerland, and Swabia. A goodly number also came from France and French (rather than German) cantons in the Helvetic Confederation. In this they don't differ very much from the "Church people" (that is, Lutherans and Reformests). The language they use amongst themselves is Pennsylvania Dutch (more correctly, "Deitsch", the standard High German "eu" following the Pfalz dialect's usage of "ei" instead). It is important, perhaps, to note that Deitsch is not a Lowlands dialect, but rather is a type of High German. Although some Allemanisch words are included in Deitsch, this is a dialect much different than the Low Saxon I see being discussed in the group. It is possibly worth mentioning that the three of the four general categories of Anabaptists live in PA: the Mennonites, the Amish, and the Brethren (no Hutterites here). These are further divided into many subsets. Most Brethren differ little these days from "Church" people, rarely speaking Deitsch anymore, and dressing in traditional sectarian clothing only for special occasions (when I attend a funeral or viewing, it's likely the only time I see some of my Brethren acquaintances in their traditional clothing). The Amish really are Mennonites, though they are usually spoken of as a separate group (or, more correctly, groups). Most non-Amish Mennonites have adopted modern dress, education, and lifestyle. In the easern part of the state, the church in my town was one of the first to break away from "being different" and as I grew up the Mennonite Church really didn't seem much different than my own (except for the adult baptism, of course). They drove cars, they didn't paint the chrome black or take any of the other measures so often mentioned in the press or in popular books about them. Farther west, in Lancaster County, the non-Amish Mennonites who remain traditional can be identified on the roads by their black buggies (the Amish buggies are grey). ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 21:02:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:02:12 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.06 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Language survival" > From: John M. Tait > Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.03 (06) [E] > > This is true. However, there is the problem - which I keep going > on about - > that most of the material available to educators is of the 'relexified > English' sort, and even those teachers who are favourably disposed towards > Scots, not knowing any better, are likely to uncritically use texts like > Robertson's book on the Parliament, or Telfer's Bruce and Wallace. John, you see everything in black! Seven years ago, I wouldn't have known any better than to use these books uncritically, either - but now I do know better. Teachers favourably disposed towards Scots are also likely to use Lorimer and Colin's book, and perhaps trawl through ScotsteXt in search of further texts. Ultimately it's a question of making enough good text and instruction available for people to realise what's wrong with some of them (such as Robertson's). Again, it comes back to the question of a critical mass being available, and I think we're making progress there. No doubt these problems you keep going over are interesting discussion points, but you can't _solve_ problems without some sort of optimism to the effect that solutions can be found. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 6 21:04:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:04:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.06 (07) [D/F] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 06.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?s) ======================================================================= From: Stella en Henno Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.02 (03) [E] > Marco Evenhuis gebruikt de term "Friso-Frankisch" en > hier twijfel ik bij het gebruik van "Friso". > Bij deze discussies gaan de situaties van vroeger en > heden steeds rakelings langs elkaar heen; en ik ben > niet gelukkig met het gebruik van "Friso". > > Ter opfrissing van ons geheugen: een romeins > geschiedschrijver gebruikt de term "Fries" omdat bij > de kust een volk woonde dat de haren gekruld droeg > [dus dit woord zit ook in 'friseur'] Dit is net alheel krekt sa't dat hjir sein wurdt! De Friezen neamden harsels ek sa, dus de Romeinen hawwe de besteande namme oernommen, net sels ien betocht op gr?n fan in uterlik skaaimerk. En sels dat "kroljende hier" is net wis; better net te witten is noch altyd net rjocht d?dlik w?r't ?s namme weikomt... . Heel veel later > zeiden mensen ergens anders: deze Friezen zijn wij en > wij wonen in Friesland. [En heel veel 'specialiteiten' > in de historische taalkunde van het Fries zouden > minder speciaal zijn wanneer met het Fries gewoon tot > het Noord-Germaans zou rekenen]. Soeste dizze opmerking faaks mear ?twurkje kinne? It Frysk foldocht oan alle skaaimerken fan it Westgermaansk dy't tradisjoneel br?kt wurde. Boppedat foldocht it net oan skaaimerken fan it Noardgermaansk. De brekkingsferskynsels komme yndie yn guon Skandinaafske talen ek foar, mar bygelyks ek yn it Ingelsk (al binne dat wer wat oare ferskynsels, mar algemien fonetysk net..) Dat, wat bedoelst hjir mei? > Vr. gr. Theo Homan Freonlike groetnisse Henno Brandsma ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 17:06:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:06:11 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.07 (01) [D] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.04 (01) [D] > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Vlaams enz. > > Hoi Marco, > > Misschien een idee dat je een aanvullend stuk over 'naamgeving' of iets > dergelijks schrijft (een bewerking van wat je hieronder hebt > geschreven), > dan > kunnen we dat toevoegen aan de pagina over Vlaams. Ron's stuk over > Nedersaksisch heeft ook een paragraaf over naamgeving, dus misschien > in die > trant... > > Wellicht kun je wat kortsluiten met de auteur, Luc Vanbrabant? Hallo, jullie beiden. Moet ik wat kortsluiten? Dan ga je dat toch even moeten uitleggen wat je daar precies mee bedoelt hoor. > Aanhalen Marco Evenhuis : > >> Hoi, >> >>> Ik ook! Vrij lastig dat hij enerzijds taalkundig een overeenkomst met >> Zeeuws >>> beschijft, Die is er toch!! En dat ik er niet veel over uitweid is, omdat ik daar geen nonsens wil verkopen.Ik ken de taalsituatie in Nederland minder dan iemand uit Nederland zelf. Wie die daar een deftige tekst tussen wil plaatsen over het Zeeuws moet het voor mij niet laten. Dat kan mij alleen maar blij maken. >>> maar politiek ??? taalkundig, cultureel en politiek... >>> gezien beschouwd hij het algemene Belgische >> Nederlands >>> ??k als Vlaams... Dat is in de meeste teksten die in Belgi? verschijnen ook zo. Ik denk dat ik in enkele korte zinsconstructies heb proberen weer te geven wat de moeilijkheid is met die verschillende naamgevingen. We moeten hier ook oppassen om niet te veel in haarklieverij te vervallen . Het moet interessant en leuk lezen blijven voor anderen buiten dit taalgebied ook.Het verschil tussen Vlaams en Vlaams zit wel degelijk in de tekst verborgen, zij het kort. >> Precies. En de aloude aaneensmeding van Oost- en West-Vlaams is >> taalkundig >> totale onzin. Dat kan toch niet zo'n onzin zijn als je zelf zegt dat het een "aloude" aaneensmeding is. Moeten we er ook niet van uitgaan dat verstaanbaarheid hier de belangrijkste norm hoort te zijn? Ik kan mij in mijn West-Vlaams perfect verstaanbaar maken in Oost-Vlaanderen, zonder dat daar een vertaling voor hoeft te zijn.In een Gents caf? praat ik West-Vlaams zonder problemen. Omgekeerd is dat ook zo voor de Oost-Vlaamse variant, want meer durf ik het echt niet te noemen, ondanks de verschillen die de taalkundigen er op willen plakken. Met Brabants gaat dit al minder, en met Limburgs zit ik er nog een stap verder van af. >> Zelfs de redacteuren van het Woordenboek van de Vlaamse >> Dialecten geven in inleidingen op hun werk grif toe dat taalkundige >> overeenkomsten binnen hun werkgebied (Frans-, West-, Zeeuws- en >> Oost-Vlaanderen) minder belangrijk zijn dan het feit dat al deze >> gebieden >> tesamen ooit het Nederlandstalige deel van het graafschap Vlaanderen >> vormden. >> West-Vlaanderen, Frans-Vlaanderen en Zeeland zijn taalkundig gezien >> nog >> nauwer verwant dan de meeste Nedersaksische dialecten. Het Oost-Vlaams >> verschilt m??r van het zuid-Brabants dan het Noord-Brabants dat doet, >> maar >> de verschillen met Zeeuws/West-vlaams zijn nog veel groter. Maar alles blijft heel duidelijk herkenbaar en onderling verstaanbaar. >> Het zal nog wel wat kunst- en vliegwerk vergen om dat op de site tot >> ieders >> tevredenheid recht te breien. De hamvraag luidt uiteraard: van welke >> bron of >> welke auteur ga je uit en hoeveel belang hecht je aan persoonlijke >> opvattingen? Inderdaad! Ik heb geprobeerd om de termen zo neutraal als mogelijk te houden om zo weinig mogelijk subjectief te worden.De talen werden ingedeeld volgens hun geografische situatie. Dat is ??n van de criteria die minst weerstand zal bieden. >>>> Ook omdat het hele Zeeuws/West-Vlaamse-Vlaamse verhaal nu al voor >> een >>>> aantal >>>> vervelende inconsistenties op de site heeft gezorgd. Als de verschillende betekenissen naast elkaar opgesomd worden(wat ook kort gebeurt) is er echt niet zo'n probleem voor iemand die heel eventjes zijn best wil doen. >>> Inderdaad, want moet Vlaams nu ook als aparte taal genoemd worden? >> Terwijl >>> Vlaams (als in: Oost-Vlaams) wordt gezien als een belangrijke >> bouwsteen >> van de >>> Nederlandse standaardtaal. Ik zou eerder stellen: Als een belangrijke bouwsteen bij het ontstaan van het Nederlands. Hoeveel Noord-Nederlanders begrijpen die varianten van het Zuid-Nederlands? Op teevee horen er telkens ondertitels bij.Als we Oost- of West-Vlaams durven gebruiken als een onderdeel van het AN, dan zou het er nogal wat gaan stuiven bij al die taalkundigen denk ik. >> Nog even in het kort mijn idee: West-Vlaams, Frans-Vlaams, West- en >> Midden-Zeeuws-Vlaams en Zeeuws vormen samen de Friso-Frankische Goed om dat zo te noemen. Ik houd wel van dat Friese element.Ik heb daarover mijn eigen idee?n, maar daar schrijf ik later nog wel een stukje over. >> zuidwestgroep van de Nederlandse taalvarianten. Oost-Vlaams is een >> Frankisch >> overgangsgebied tussen West-Vlaams/Zeeuws en Brabants, maar sluit >> zuiver >> taalkundig gezien meer bij het (eveneens Frankische) Brabants dan bij >> het >> West-Vlaams/Zeeuws aan. >> Aardig ijkpunt: Zeeuwen en West-Vlamingen doen aan code-switching >> wanneer >> zij geconfronteerd worden met een spreker van het Standaardnederlands >> (ze >> schakelen dus tussen twee min of meer 'zuivere' taalvarianten). >> Oost-Vlamingen passen hun taal, net als Brabanders, in stapjes aan aan >> de >> gesprekspartner. Maw, iemand kan wel een b??tje of een beetje veel >> Oost-Vlaams of Brabants praten (en het gewoon Oost-Vlaams of Brabants >> noemen >> bovendien), maar met Zeeuws en West-Vlaams is dat onmogelijk. Ik praat met mijn Brusselse vrienden Nederlands maar ook een soort tussentaal die zij zeker appreci?ren en begrijpen . En daar zitten een paar rasechte ketjes bij. >> Je spreekt >> ?f >> Zeeuws ?f AN. Er is geen tussenweg. Dat is toch een kwestie van even je best willen doen. Niet iedereen is toch zo ongevoelig voor taal dat hij /zij niet met ??n van onze varianten mee onderweg kan gaan. Al die Noord-Duitse talen waren voor mij ook nieuw, maar dat zijn ze na een klein beetje tijd allang niet meer. Ook het "Scots" is mij al bekender dan enkele weken geleden.Even wennen en Antwerps lukt wel. Limburgs moet voor mij ook kunnen met wat inspanning, enz... >> Dat er mensen zijn, die zich in het >> AN >> niet altijd evengoed weten te redden, is een heel andere kwestie. >> >> Probleem blijft natuurlijk dat het begrip Vlaams zowel wordt gebruikt >> voor >> de Zuid-Nederlandse standaardtaal als (door de sprekers) het Oost- ?n >> het >> West-Vlaams. Sprekers maken dus voor wat betreft de benaming van hun >> taal >> geen onderscheid tussen Oost en West, alhoewel de jongere generaties >> West-Vlamingen steeds vaker een voorkeur voor 'West-Vlaams' boven >> 'Vlaams' >> laten zien. Die willen gewoon wat nauwkeuriger zijn.Het West-Vlaams is ook conservatief en evolueert niet zo vlug naar het algemeen Nederlands als de andere regionale talen.Vandaar dat misschien wat aparte gevoel en 'statement'. >> In Oost-Vlaanderen weet ik niet precies hoe dat laatste met >> de >> jongste generaties precies zit. >> >> Afijn, we komen er wel uit. Groeten, >> >> Marco Groetjes, Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 17:08:30 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:08:30 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.07 (02) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (08) [E/LS] >Ron schreef: .... Mi d??Z???, dat Woord "B??s??? keem >vun >> _boden_ > _b??'???_ af. > >That's funny, because they call the attic "B??????" in the German Southwest >(Schwaben), and I had never heard of a similar expression. In High German, >"B??????" means "stage", and I was very confused when I moved to Ulm 16 years >ago to hear prospective landlords tell me the apartment came with a stage. > >Regards, >Gabriele Kahn > >Leeive Ron, >Du hesst schreeven > >>> De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat w??s??? ne opp 'n B??s???*, mann opp 'n >>> B??s???*. Or gifft ook 'n "B??s??? in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? > >>Klaar heett dat "B??s???*, tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar heel >>snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _B??s???* heff ik >>bitherto nich maal in W??>???eukers funnen. Mi d??Z??? dat Woord "B??s???* keem >vun >>_boden_ > _b??'???_ af. >> >>Reinhard/Ron > >Mookst mi heel d??>???ein! >Nee- ick b????? recht seeker, hier, an dennen "beusen", ook "leeigen" *s* >Innen vonne Elv, waard "B??s???e)m" seggt, as (E) "bottom" (I assume, cognate >of [UG] "Boden"). >> Fiete: > >> De "Mieze-" (E: "mice-"?) -katze/cat w??s??? ne opp 'n B??s???*, mann opp >'n >> B??s???*. Or gifft ook 'n "B??s??? in anner snaaksche LS-Munnoorten? > >> Ron: > >> Klaar heett dat "B??s???, tominnst in de mehrsten Dialekten, 'n paar >heel >> snaaksche an 't Enn vun de Elv maal nich mitrekend. ;) _B??s??Y heff >ik >> bitherto nich maal in W??>????????? funnen. Mi d??Z???, dat Woord "B??s??? >keem > > vun >> _boden_ > _b??'???_ af. > >Leve Ron, > >Ik gl??>?? wat "b??s??? ??????rhaftiger is as "boden" > "b??'???" mid /d/- >utfall. Vergliik mhd. / mnd. sluten. Verwandschup mid gift dat wol, avers gaait dat veel >wider tr??z?? denk ik, vergliik ags. "schipsbodden". "B??s??? is >also in de like familie, avers nich dat like woord as "bodden". In de >Baverd??????ch mundaarden segt man to`n bispeel in`t Schw???sch "B??????" >(or /bi:n(e)/) un heet ook "b??s???. >Dat etymoloogsche w??>???ook vun Kluge snakt daar ook vun, wat germ. >*?? *bhu(dh)ni? ?pkeem. >Versipt is wol ook Awestisch buna "bodden", un Ooldirisch bun "dat >??????re en". > >Gr??'???s, > >Dan Hello Fiete, Ron and all ! As I mentioned already, in Eastern Friesland Low Saxon we have >bo"o"em< as one possible plural for >bo:m< (tree) besides >bo:men<. But also we have >bo:m< meaning >bottom, ground, base<. >bo"o"n< is >attic, loft etc.< but >stage< would be >bu"u"en< as a German loan or mainly used >spo"o"lde^l<. (>de^l< is >floor; plank<) By the way: >bo"o"ners< are a special kind of broom made of heather used for cleaning kettles or pots. At last let me add a little correction to my last posting about cat's names in EFLS: If we call a cat we'd use >pu:s< but if this word replaces the word >cat< it will be >pu^s< (mi:n dochter ho"o"r dreiklo"o"ert pu^s lieght net akro??t te:gen mi: up 't so:fa un slo"pt as ik dit sghri:f). Kumpelment Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 17:56:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 10:56:40 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (05) [E] Thank you for the information. I had forgotten about the paper lanterns we carried with lit candles in them. Suennermarten is clearly the same holdiday that we had. I asume that it must be limited to the north of Germany because none of the Germans I have met here (allmost all from south Germany) had ever heard of it. If you can dig up the song, I would greatly appreciate it. The fire festival was as you described it. Only a few couples jumped over the fire and that only when the fire had burned quite low. By the way, does Nikolaus still have his place on December 6th or has he been displaced by the American Santa Claus by now? Tom ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Festivities Tom, I think that several of these holidays and customs have merged: Martinmas, Halloween and the various New Year's customs, most of which obviously have pre-Christians roots. In Protestant communities of Northern Germany there are permutations of Martinmas. I'm not so sure if this is done a lot now, but when I was a child we would walk around with foldable paper laterns (usually in different shapes and colors, held with a stick with a wire hook or loop) and sing certain latern songs, usually of the endless type (of which I might share a couple if you are interested). This was not confined to Martinmas, of which we knew nothing, but could be done pretty much anytime just after dusk in the fall. Much of what children in North America do on Halloween, we used to do on New Years Eve. In other words, there is a merging of the two originally "pagan" festivals Halloween and "winter cleansing" (cleaning houses of evil spirits before the return of the sun, as is still done in archaic shamanist mummenschanz rituals in Alemannic areas, especially in Switzerland, reflected also in the Scandinavian Christmas dance through all the rooms of the house). On New Year's Eve, we children would go from door to door in fancy costumes, often with masks, pretending to be something like beggar pilgrims, singing songs and expecting to get rewarded with candy, cookies and such like, thus similar to American Halloween Trick-o-Treating. Sometimes, if people didn't give them anything or would not open their doors, children would make a terrible racket, originally with pots, pans, drums and _rummelpots_ (a special type of droning instrument). In the most recent past they would fire off fireworks. (I remember one case in which teenagers stuck life fireworks into someone's letterslot in the door and burnt up the place while the residents were on a trip ...) As you can see, there is a direct relationship between these customs and those of Scottish Hogmaney. There are also similarities with the Lucia festivities in Scandinavia, the use of candles (such as on Advent wreaths and Christmas trees) to symbolize the "pagan" rituals of bringing back the light in mid-winter, which was easy for the Christian churches to convert conceptually and ritually. In Northern Germany the "Dutch" and "German" customs have merged (just to confuse the children, I suppose). We have both Santa Claus (LS _Nicklas_, _Sinterklaas_, Germ. _(Sankt) Nikolaus_) on December 6 and Father Christmas (LS _Wiehnachtsmann, Germ. _Weihnachtsmann_). If you had been good all year, the former would put small gifts into your shoes, which you would have to shine and put on a window sill while saying a verse. The latter will bring gifts (or beat you with a bunch of faggots) on Christmas Eve. We were told he would come while we went to evening church service, funnily always one grown-up family member short, usually our father. (On our return there would be a huge hoopla -- "Oh, Father Christmas must have been here!") In many families' traditions, Father Christmas is accompanied by his servant Knecht Ruprecht (whose counterpart accompanies the Dutch Sinterklaas on December 6). (In the Roman Catholic south, the companion is the "Christ Child," or Father Christmas does not exist, and the "Christ Child" brings gifts.) In Hamburg, which is relatively cosmopolitan, many of these traditions co-exist(ed), because people's ancestry came from all of Germany and beyond. I happened to live in an area with an unusually high Roman Catholic concentration and got exposed to their customs early, and, to make it more complicated, among them South German, East German, Polish and Ukrainian ones coexisted. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 22:35:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:35:25 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.07 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] > Back to the *European* Lowlands, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the > basic > word for 'cat' is _Katt_ ~ _kat_ ([kat]). You can also say > _Muuschkatt_ > (['mu:Skat]), _Muusch_ ([mu:S]), _Muuskatt_ (['mu:skat]), or _Puus_ > ([pu:s]), or you can use the nickname _B??nhaas'_ (['b?:nhQ:.z] ~ > ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). > > Kumpelmenten, > Reinhard/Ron > Dear Ron, In V we also have the same words for cats: kat (kater= male cat) poes poezekatje poezeke Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.02 (01) [E] > From: George M Gibault > Subject: Afrikaans tapes etc. > > I hope you will all take a look at Afrikaans at some point. It is full > of > wonderfully humorous expressions. (many perhaps common to Dutch, > Vlaams > and Platt?) > > In English we say for an unintentional giving away of a secret "He let > the > cat out of the bag." In Afrikaans it is "Hy het die aap uit die mou > laat > kom."" He has let the ape come out of the sleeve." How can you not > love a > language in which porcupine comes out as "skekelvark" or the equally > colourful "ystervark?" > > Best to all George Dear George, here are some West-Flemish expressions about cats: (written in a Dutch-like style) -De katte in de kelder kweken -Een veugel voor de katte zijn -De katte komt up de ko?rde -Up iemand zitt'n lijk Stoffle up z'n katte -De veugeltjes die 's nuchtends vroeg schuf'ln worden van de katte gepakt -Katt'n in zakk'n ko?pen -Konsuis konsoois de katte legt eiers -Het is nauwe muizen als de katte voor heur zelve muist -Ik zal er mijn katte van spreken -Hij zendt er zijn katte naartoe -Wacht u van katten die muizen zonder meeuwen -Heeft de katte haren wens, het zal muizen reg'nen -Overeenkom' lijk katt'n en hond'n -'k Wilde dat de katt'n uw aanzichte wiesen 't Is ge?n katte om zonder handschoe'n an te pakk'n -Om de katte een steirt te mak'n -Katje mie katje were -Katje-duik spel'n Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Indiomatica In Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Katt [kat] 'cat' * de Katt uut d'n Sack laten ("to let the cat out of the sack/bag") 'to let the cat out of the bag' (to let slip a secret') * de/'n Katt in 'n Sack k?pen ("to buy a cat in a sack/bag") 'to buy a pig in a poke' (to acquire something without knowing what it is) * de Katt in 't Oog' slaan ("to hit the cat into the eye") 'to act in an insulting manner' * f?r de Katt ("for the cat") 'for the birds' (useless, trivial) * dat hett de Katt sick haalt ("the cat got it") 'for the birds' (useless, trivial) * dat lickt ... keen Katt wedder af ("no cat will lick it/that off ...") (something tarnishes ...'s reputation forever) * Daar s?nd mehr Katten as Graden. ("There are more cats than (fish) bones.") 'They are in deep financial trouble.' * De Bruud hett de Katten nich good fodert. ("The bride didn't feed the cats well.") 'It's bad weather (on a wedding day).' Kater ['kQ:t3] 'tomcat' (also 'hangover') * d'n Kater bi d'n Steert hebben ("to have the tomcat by the tail") 'to be cookin' with gas/grease' (American) (to have mastered something and make good progress) * He s?ht uut as 'n aflickten Kater. ("He looks like a licked tomcat") 'He's well groomed.', 'His hair looks wet/greasy.' * nieglich/neeschierig sien (so) as 'n Kater ("to be as curious as a tomcat") 'to be very curious' * Hier hett de Kater de M??s' speelt. ("The tomcat played with the mice here.") 'It's a terrible mess here.' * Dat is 'n slichten Kater, de (man) bloots v?r een Lock must. ("It's a plain tomcat that hunts mice only in front of one hole.") 'Most men are Casanovas.' Aap [?Q:p] (~ Ape ['?Q:pe]) 'monkey', 'ape' * sik 'n Aap (~ Apen) k?pen ("to buy oneself a monkey") 'to get drunk' * 'n Aap (~ Apen) in d'n Aars kieken ("to look a monkey up the ass/arse") 'to be very lucky', 'to get rich', 'to hit the big time' Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 7 22:43:15 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 15:43:15 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.07 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.04 (03) [E] > Back to the *European* Lowlands, in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), the > basic > word for 'cat' is _Katt_ ~ _kat_ ([kat]). You can also say > _Muuschkatt_ > (['mu:Skat]), _Muusch_ ([mu:S]), _Muuskatt_ (['mu:skat]), or _Puus_ > ([pu:s]), or you can use the nickname _B??nhaas'_ (['b?:nhQ:.z] ~ > ['b9:nhQ:.z], literally "attic hare"). > > Kumpelmenten, > Reinhard/Ron > Dear Ron, In V we also have the same words for cats: kat (kater= male cat) poes poezekatje poezeke Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.02 (01) [E] > From: George M Gibault > Subject: Afrikaans tapes etc. > > I hope you will all take a look at Afrikaans at some point. It is full > of > wonderfully humorous expressions. (many perhaps common to Dutch, > Vlaams > and Platt?) > > In English we say for an unintentional giving away of a secret "He let > the > cat out of the bag." In Afrikaans it is "Hy het die aap uit die mou > laat > kom."" He has let the ape come out of the sleeve." How can you not > love a > language in which porcupine comes out as "skekelvark" or the equally > colourful "ystervark?" > > Best to all George Dear George, here are some West-Flemish expressions about cats: (written in a Dutch-like style) -De katte in de kelder kweken -Een veugel voor de katte zijn -De katte komt up de ko?rde -Up iemand zitt'n lijk Stoffle up z'n katte -De veugeltjes die 's nuchtends vroeg schuf'ln worden van de katte gepakt -Katt'n in zakk'n ko?pen -Konsuis konsoois de katte legt eiers -Het is nauwe muizen als de katte voor heur zelve muist -Ik zal er mijn katte van spreken -Hij zendt er zijn katte naartoe -Wacht u van katten die muizen zonder meeuwen -Heeft de katte haren wens, het zal muizen reg'nen -Overeenkom' lijk katt'n en hond'n -'k Wilde dat de katt'n uw aanzichte wiesen 't Is ge?n katte om zonder handschoe'n an te pakk'n -Om de katte een steirt te mak'n -Katje mie katje were -Katje-duik spel'n Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Indiomatica In Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Katt [kat] 'cat' (plural _Katten_ ['katn=]) * de Katt uut d'n Sack laten ("to let the cat out of the sack/bag") 'to let the cat out of the bag' (to let a secret slip) 'to lay the cards on the table' (to finally reveal something) * de/'n Katt in 'n Sack k?pen ("to buy a cat in a sack/bag") 'to buy a pig in a poke' (to acquire something without knowing what it is) * de Katt in 't Oog' slaan ("to hit the cat in the eye") 'to be insulting' * f?r de Katt ("for the cat") 'for the birds' (useless, trivial) * dat hett de Katt sick haalt ("the cat got it") 'for the birds' (useless, trivial) * dat lickt ... keen Katt wedder af ("no cat will lick it/that off ...") 'That'll stick to ... (forever)' (something tarnishes ...'s reputation forever) * Daar s?nd mehr Katten as Graden. ("There are more cats than (fish) bones.") 'They are in deep financial trouble.' * De Bruud hett de Katten nich good fodert. ("The bride didn't feed the cats well.") 'It's bad weather (on a wedding day).' Kater ['kQ:t3] 'tomcat' (also 'hangover', plural _Katers_) * d'n Kater bi d'n Steert hebben ("to have the tomcat by the tail") 'to be cookin' with gas/grease' (American) (to have mastered something and make good progress) * He s?ht uut as 'n aflickten Kater. ("He looks like a licked tomcat") 'He's well groomed.', 'His hair looks wet/greasy.' * nieglich/neeschierig sien (so) as 'n Kater ("to be as curious as a tomcat") 'to be very curious' * Hier hett de Kater de M??s' speelt. ("The tomcat played with the mice here.") 'It's a terrible mess here.' * Dat is 'n slichten Kater, de (man) bloots v?r een Lock must. ("It's a plain tomcat that hunts mice only in front of one hole.") 'Most men are Casanovas.' Aap [?Q:p] (~ Ape ['?Q:pe]) 'monkey'#, 'ape' (plural _Apen_ ['?Q:pm=]) * sik 'n Aap k?pen ("to buy oneself a monkey") 'to get drunk' * 'n Aap in d'n Aars kieken ("to look a monkey up the ass/arse") 'to be very lucky', 'to get rich', 'to hit the big time' # Specifically 'monkey' can also be _Aapkatt_ ("ape cat"). Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 03:41:02 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 20:41:02 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.07 (05) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Swanepoels Subject: Afrikaans Hi there, I agree that Afrikaans is a wonderfully, expressive language, tinted with the obvious African flavour, which it has been exposed to for so many years. I love it with a passion and it does allow for humorous expressions and "idiome", often involving animals eg. "moenie die bobbejaan agter die bult gaan haal nie", for warning against unnecessary, premature worry or concern about something that may not even happen. "Tiermelk", for beverages containing alcohol etc. Hope to hear some more Afrikaans soon, Susan Swanepoel ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Afrikaans Lewe Susan, Welkom by Lowlands-L, en baie dankie vir jou eerste insending! Ek is werklik bly, dat jy van Afrikaans melding maak -- ja, een uiters belangwekkende en betowernde taal -- en ek hoop, dat jy jou kennis daarvan dikwels onder ons bekend sal maak. Ons het ook baie Afrikaners en Afrikaans-entoesiaste onder ons, selfs onder Lowlands-L se "ringkoppe". Maar in die laaste tyd is hulle bietjie stil, om dit maar saggies uit te druk. (Nie meer ge?nteresseerd nie? Besig op 'n ander, beter lys? Te veel tiermelk? ...) Miskien kan jy ons help hulle "agter die bult gaan haal." Met vriendelike groete, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: Ekskuus hierdie Nedersaksiese Laelander se Afrikaans! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 04:17:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2002 21:17:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 07.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (03) [E] Tom wrote: < Thank you for the information. I had forgotten about the paper lanterns we < carried with lit candles in them. Suennermarten is clearly the same < holdiday that we had. I asume that it must be limited to the north of < Germany because none of the Germans I have met here (allmost all from < south < Germany) had ever heard of it. If you can dig up the song, I would < greatly < appreciate it. < The fire festival was as you described it. Only a few couples jumped over < the fire and that only when the fire had burned quite low. < By the way, does Nikolaus still have his place on December 6th or has he < been displaced by the American Santa Claus by now? Im Schwoabal?ndle wo`n i ufgwachsa bee, hot`s ao dr Sankt Mardin g?ba. Mir sen mit de Laternla omadomgloffa un hent Liadla gsonga: "Ich geh mit meiner Laterne...".... dee? hoi?t also dass`es im Siid-Weschda vo Deitschland fei scho dr St Mardin geit. Nadiirlich ao de andre Sacha wo dr Ron gsait hot, mit vor-chischdliche Rituale und so weidr. Mir Schoaba sen hald ao Allemanna. In Swabia, where I grew up, St Martin was celebrated as well. We went from house to house with our Lanterns singing "Ich geh` mit meiner Laterne..." ....which means that St Martin is known in the South West of Germany. Of course there are also the other customs that Ron mentioned, concerning the Allemannic area and their pre-christian rituals. We Swabians are Allemannic as well. Daniel ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Festivities Daniel, Lowlanders, We used to sing that German song up in the north too. The other one -- also a "song that never ends," I'm afraid -- was maccaronic: German, then suddenly (indented part below) switching over to Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Laterne, Laterne! Die Sonne, der Mond und die Sterne! Brenne auf, mein Licht! Brenne auf, mein Licht, Aber nur meine liebe Laterne nicht! Meine Laterne ist so sch?n! Da kann man mit spazieren gehn, In dem gr?nen Walde, Wo die B?chsen knallen, Waar de Oldsch mit 'n L?cht, De de L??d' bedr?ggt, De de Eier haalt Un j?m nich betaalt.* Laterne, ... * In our Hamburg dialect with bookish influence due to rhythm: Lat?ane, Lat?ane! Die Sonne, d? Moond unnie St?ane! Brenne aauf, maain Licht! Brenne aauf, maain Licht, ?ba nua maaine liebe Lat?ane nicht! Maaine Lat?ane isso sch??n! D? kammammit spazieren gehn, In den gr?nen Walde, Wo die B?cksn knallen, Wo de Ollsch mit 'n Licht, De de L??t bedr?cht, De de Aaier hoolt Un se nich betoolt.* My translation: Lantern, Lantern! The sun, the moon and the stars! Burn up, my light (= candle)! Burn up, my light, But not you, my lovely lantern! My lantern is so beautiful! You can go for walks with it, In the green woods, Where rifle shots ring out, Where the old woman with a light [is/lives] Who bamboozles folks, Who keeps taking eggs And won't pay for them. Lantern, ... The German sentence _Da kann man mit spazieren gehn_ has a definite northern (Missingsch) ring to it. In proper "High" German it would be _Damit kann man spazieren gehn_ (but that wouldn't work in the song). Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 15:04:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:04:48 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (01) [E/LS/S/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (08) [E/LS] >From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen >Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] > >> From: Eldo Neufeld >> Subject: LL-L Festivals >> Of >course among the sweets that are given to children at "Sint Maarten" - >known in mostly northern parts of the Netherlands - are "pepernoten" as >well, but they don't play a key role. > >St. Maarten was discussed on this list in Nov 1996. Let me quote a small >Grunnens LS song that was posted then by Erik Springelkamp: > > Mien lutje lanteern > Ik sai die zo geern > > Ik loop langs de stroat'n > da ken ik nait loat'n > > Mien lutje lanteern > Ik sai die zo geern > >Groeten, >Floor van Lamoen. > >---------- > >From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com >Subject: Festivals > >Here is a translation of Floor's Groningen Lowlands Saxon lantern song into >Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) from not that much farther east across >the NL-DE border: > > Mien l??"???e Lanteern, > Ik seh di so geern. > > Ik loop langs de straat'n. > Da' kann ik nich laat'n. > > Mien l??"???e Lanteern, > Ik seh di so geern > >The difference is mostly orthographic (Dutch- vs. German-based). In many >dialects _she_ would be _seih_ [za.I] too. > >Rough translation: > > My little lantern, > I love seeing you. > I walk down the streets, > Just don't want to stop. > > My little lantern, > I love seeing you. > >Kumpelmenten, >Reinhard/Ron Moin Floor, Ron and all ! The song You call a Grunnens (Groningen) one is known to me as a genuine text from the Eastern Friesland author Greta Schoon who composed it for the children (and together with them) during her working in a kindergarden. Completely it reads (unfortunately in the odd German based orthography): Mien lu"ttje Lantern, ik hebb Di so gern, Du danzt do"r de Straten, Du kannst dat nich laaten. Ik mutt mit Di lopen, mutt singen un ropen. Mien lu"ttje Lantern, ik hebb Di so gern. --- Mien lu"ttje Lantern, ik hebb Di so gern. Du Wind laat dat susen ! Krup achter de Husen, krup achter de Dieken, fandaag must Du wieken. Mien lu"ttje Lantern, ik hebb Di so gern. ---- Mien lu"ttje Lantern, Du glaist as een Steern. Daar tinkelt gien Maandje, daar krait uns kien Hahntje, danz wieder, danz wieder ! Ik sing immer blieder: Mien lu"ttje Lantern ik hebb Di so gern. An English translation of the contents: My little lantern I love You so much You dance through the streets, You cannot stop I must go with You, must sing, must shout My little... My little... You, wind, stop blowing, hide behind the houses hide behind the dikes, today You must leave. My little... My little lantern You glow like a star no moon-y is twinkling no cock is crowing dance further, dance further ! I chant still brighter my little lantern I love You so much. Kumpelmenten Holger ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (06) [E] I know the St. Martin-tradition from the Lower Rhine area near Glabbeek/Moenchengladbach where I spent some time in my childhood but in my native Rendsborg in Slesvig-Holsten this tradition is unknown, instead we have the "Rummelpott", celebrated at New Year's Eve in a similar fashion but we don't have lanterns, instead we use a bladder stretched over a bowl (or a bigger 'pott') and it is used to create a particular sound while the children go around in the early evening and request "bunschers" (sweets) and sing songs, most of them in Low Saxon. This tradidition is known in the whole of Southern Jutland down to, as far as I know, Hamborg. ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (06) [E] I grew up between the Harz mountains and the Weser river; we used to go from door to door and sing, and receive sweets and other goodies, basically to shut us up and make us go away! There's one Lower Saxon Martin song I remember, but as usual, I don't know how to spell it "correctly": Matten Matten Abend, de ?ppel un de Beren, dat Himmelreich is upgedaan, da woll'n wer alle rinnegaan, an diesen Matten Abend. Southern Lower Saxony is very Protestant; therefore, while in the southern regions of Germany and also in North Rhine-Westphalia, which is mainly Catholic, St. Martin songs and traditions refer to the fellow who split his coat, where I come from the meaning has shifted. Even almost 40 years ago, most of the songs we sang would refer to Martin Luther instead (whose birthday was November 10th; I seem to remember that was also the day we did our singing). The standard was: Als Martin noch ein Knabe war (or, frequently: Als Martin Luther ein Knabe war), da hat er gesungen so manches Jahr vor fremder Leute T?ren, vor fremder Leute T?ren. Actually, my friends and I sang my new and improved version: "vor fremder Leute T?ren, ganz ohne Starall?ren". But I doubt that that has become a tradition... While, in other parts of Germany, walking with lanterns is a St. Martin's thing, we did that all through the fall whenever we felt like it; it had no connection with St. Martin's Day whatsoever that we were aware of. Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon Gabriele: > While, in other parts of Germany, walking with lanterns is a St. Martin's > thing, we did that all through the fall whenever we felt like it; it had no > connection with St. Martin's Day whatsoever that we were aware of. Same thing up in urban Hamburg, Gabriele. I wouldn't even have known what you were talking about had you said "St. Martin" when I was a child. We were able to do _Laternelaufen_ (G) or _La(n)teernlopen_ (LS) anytime in the fall, whenever it wasn't raining, when our parents would allow it, and whenever an adult or late-teen chaparone for the little ones could be scared up. Apparently, in some places outside the urban area, even still within the state of Hamburg and _umrum_ (Missingsch for "roundabout"), Martinmas had not yet been forgotten. Our own Clara Cramer-Freudenthal writes about this from her childhood in the Old Land (Olland), and something about it is posted at her site: http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/, namely "De Martinsdag / Martinmas" (http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/kramer/martinsdag.htm). Gr?tens, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (06) [E] Dear Tom, I forgot to answer you second question. Of course Nikolaus is still on the 6th of Dec. and has not been replaced by Santa. In Germany He accompanied by Knecht Ruprecht, and in Austria by the Grampus, two mean characters who put naughty children in the sack they carry around with them. According to the myth the naughtiest children are subsequently beaten. Merry Christmas. Daniel ---------- From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.03 (07) [E/S] Fellow Lowlanders, You remind me of the first verse of the Scottish Ballad "Get Up and Bar The Door" to wit: "It fell aboot the Martinmass time And a gay time it was then oh Whan oor guid wife got puddins tae mak And she biled them in the pan oh Fall the riddle fall the riddle fall the riddle aye doh" Sadly, no recipe! Best to all George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 15:07:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:07:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.01 (02) [D]] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Language varieties Hallo Luc, Laaglanders, > > Misschien een idee dat je een aanvullend stuk over 'naamgeving' of > iets > > dergelijks schrijft (een bewerking van wat je hieronder hebt > > geschreven), > > dan > > kunnen we dat toevoegen aan de pagina over Vlaams. Ron's stuk over > > Nedersaksisch heeft ook een paragraaf over naamgeving, dus misschien > > in die > > trant... > > > > Wellicht kun je wat kortsluiten met de auteur, Luc Vanbrabant? > > Hallo, jullie beiden. Moet ik wat kortsluiten? Dan ga je dat toch even > moeten uitleggen wat je daar precies mee bedoelt hoor. Dit bericht is een fragment uit een priv?-mail die ik naar Marco heb gestuurd, maar die per ongeluk op de lijst terecht is gekomen, vandaar dat je er geen touw aan vast kan knopen :-) . Het ging om de website Lowlands Talk (http://lowlands-l.net/talk), waarvoor jij een inleidend verhaal over het Vlaams hebt geschreven. Marco en ik denken dat de term "Vlaams" zoals die hier gebruikt wordt voor veel Hollanders verwarrend is. Dit komt doordat het Zeeuws zo expliciet vermeld wordt, terwijl het Zeeuws alleen aan het West-Vlaams sterk verwant is, veel minder aan het Oost-Vlaams. Aan de overeenkomsten tussen Oost- en West-Vlaams kan ik uiteraard niet spreken. Bij de term "Vlaams" denk de gemiddelde Hollander aan het Nederlands zoals dat wordt (uit)gesproken in Belgi?, niet aan het oude graafschap Vlaanderen en al helemaal niet aan het Zeeuws. Ik bedoelde dat hier misschien een verklarende paragraaf over naamgeving en de daarmee aangeduidde gebieden duidelijkheid zou kunnen verschaffen in deze uiterst complexe situatie. > > Aanhalen Marco Evenhuis : > > > >> Hoi, > >> > >>> Ik ook! Vrij lastig dat hij enerzijds taalkundig een overeenkomst > met > >> Zeeuws > >>> beschijft, > > Die is er toch!! > En dat ik er niet veel over uitweid is, omdat ik daar geen nonsens wil > verkopen.Ik ken de taalsituatie in Nederland minder dan iemand uit > Nederland zelf. Wie die daar een deftige tekst tussen wil plaatsen > over het Zeeuws moet het voor mij niet laten. Dat kan mij alleen maar > blij maken. De taalkundige overeenkomst tussen Zeeuws en West-Vlaams bestaat inderdaad, maar met Oost-Vlaams is deze overeenkomst nu juist veel kleiner. Althans, dit heb ik altijd begrepen, en is mij ook opgevallen. > >>> maar politiek > > ??? taalkundig, cultureel en politiek... > > >>> gezien beschouwd hij het algemene Belgische > >> Nederlands > >>> ??k als Vlaams... > > Dat is in de meeste teksten die in Belgi? verschijnen ook zo. Ik denk > dat ik in enkele korte zinsconstructies heb proberen weer te geven wat > de moeilijkheid is met die verschillende naamgevingen. We moeten hier > ook oppassen om niet te veel in haarklieverij te vervallen . Het moet > interessant en leuk lezen blijven voor anderen buiten dit taalgebied > ook.Het verschil tussen Vlaams en Vlaams zit wel degelijk in de tekst > verborgen, zij het kort. Ik vrees dat dat misschien iets explicieter moet, Hollanders zijn niet gewenst zo genuanceerd over Vlaanderen en het Vlaams te denken :-) . Vandaar mijn 'proefbalonnetje' ten aanzien van een aparte paragraaf. Hartelijke groeten, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 15:09:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 08:09:48 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: denis dujardin Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.07 (04) [E] Not to forget: in West-Flemish: "t'spuuwt kattejongen" (litt: "it is spitting kittens") meaning : "It's raining cats and dogs". denis dujardin kortrijk flanders ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 20:58:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 13:58:45 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.01 (04) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Swanepoels Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.07 (05) [A/E] Liewe Reinhard, Wat 'n verrassing om 'n Nedersaksiese Laaglander so uitstekend te hoor / sien Afrikaans praat. Aangesien die taal dikwels deur sommige van my Nederlandse vriende as "een schattig taaltje" beskryf word, neem ek aan dat dit soms as die "Aspoestertjie" van die LL-tale beskou word. Die geskiedenis en ontwikkeling daarvan, is natuurlik baie interessant en dikwels hoor ek Engelssprekendes, wat ook Afrikaans effens magtig is s?, dat dit so 'n po?tiese taal is en soveel meer beskrywend as hul eie taal. Daarmee stem ek saam, want emosie en fyner nuanses kan met Afrikaans onverbeterlik uitgedruk word. Wat die "ringkoppe" van Lowlands-L betref, laat hoor gerus meer van julle kennis van Afrikaans, en ek sal nie omgee as julle soms van die os op die jas spring nie. Groete, Susan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Afrikaans Liewe Susan, > Wat 'n verrassing om 'n Nedersaksiese Laaglander so uitstekend te hoor / > sien Afrikaans praat. "Uitstekend"?! Ha! Mooipratertjie! ;) Ek weet, dat dit nie uitstekend is nie! Susan, Laaglanders, op hierdie lys het ons geen "Aspoestertjie" onder die tale nie, en ook geen kwaaie stiefma en stiefsusters nie (nee, ook geen prins nie). Hulle is almal sustertale. Elke suster is op haar eie wys aantreklik and lieflik, en hulle het mekaar lief. Seker wil die meeste Laaglanders, soos ek, graag meer in en oor Afrikaans hoor/lees. Groete, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 21:04:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 14:04:42 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (05) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.07 (03) [E] Beste Laaglanders, > In Northern Germany the "Dutch" and "German" customs have merged (just > to confuse the children, I suppose). We have both Santa Claus (LS > _Nicklas_, _Sinterklaas_, Germ. _(Sankt) Nikolaus_) on December 6 and > Father Christmas (LS _Wiehnachtsmann, Germ. _Weihnachtsmann_). Just to give an example of how traditions get merged or mixed (up) or how people deal with different traditions that come together. In my village in Western Lower-Saxony we had S?nnerklaas (accompanied by Knecht Ruprecht) the Weihnachtsmann, and the Christkind. I should maybe add that it is a Catholic region, if that matters. S?nnerklaas came on December 6, but even before he would bring candy if you put some food for his horse on the window sill. On December 6 S?nnerklaas came to town (on his horse), with Knecht Ruprecht and a lot of angles (usually the second or third grade girls in their first communion dresses, with wings attached to it). At this evening we also had our lanterns with us, IIRC. We did not have Sankt Martin, this was something the people in the City (of Meppen) did. I still can remember that our neighbor, who had cousins in Meppen, went to the Sankt Martin parade, and got candies, and we still had to wait for a couple of weeks. On Christmas eve you had either the Weihnachtsmann or the Christkind, but not both. In our family we had always the Christkind. The Weihnachtmann was just present in his chocolate manifestation. BTW: The Christkind is not "Baby Jesus". It is actually no baby at all, it is more a fairy. I just want to mention it, since I heard people who are unfamiliar with the Christkind complaining about us, cruel Germans, who let a baby bring all the heavy gifts. But it is just a heavenly creature who does this by magic. That's why you are supposed to see a short flash of light when the presents are delivered. It is getting cold outside. Time for hotchpotch:) Ansgar ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (01) [E/LS/S/German] Helge Tietz wrote: > I know the St. Martin-tradition from the Lower Rhine > area near Glabbeek/Moenchengladbach where I spent some > time in my childhood but in my native Rendsborg in > Slesvig-Holsten this tradition is unknown, instead we > have the "Rummelpott", celebrated at New Year's Eve in > a similar fashion but we don't have lanterns, instead > we use a bladder stretched over a bowl (or a bigger > 'pott') and it is used to create a particular sound > while the children go around in the early evening and > request "bunschers" (sweets) and sing songs, most of > them in Low Saxon. This tradidition is known in the > whole of Southern Jutland down to, as far as I know, > Hamborg. Actually, the "Rommelpot" is a Dutch tradition as well. There's a song that goes with it: "Rommelpotterij, rommelpotterij, geef maar 'n centje, dan ga ik voorbij. 'k Heb geen geld om brood te kopen, daarom moet ik met de rommelpot lopen. Rommelpotterij, rommelpotterij, geef maar 'n centje, dan ga ik voorbij." The song seems to indicate that the "rommelpot" is an implement used by beggars going from door to door. I don't know much about the circumstances, I'm afraid. Groetjes, Gabriele Kahn ----------- From: Jan Strunk Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (01) [E/LS/S/German] Dear Lowlanders, Gabriele wrote: > Southern Lower Saxony is very Protestant; therefore, while in the southern > regions of Germany and also in North Rhine-Westphalia, which is mainly > Catholic, St. Martin songs and traditions refer to the fellow who split his > coat, where I come from the meaning has shifted. Even almost 40 years ago, > most of the songs we sang would refer to Martin Luther instead (whose > birthday was November 10th; I seem to remember that was also the day we did > our singing). The standard was: > > Als Martin noch ein Knabe war (or, frequently: Als Martin Luther ein Knabe > war), > da hat er gesungen so manches Jahr > vor fremder Leute T?ren, > vor fremder Leute T?ren. > > Actually, my friends and I sang my new and improved version: "vor fremder > Leute T?ren, ganz ohne Starall?ren". But I doubt that that has become a > tradition... > > While, in other parts of Germany, walking with lanterns is a St. Martin's > thing, we did that all through the fall whenever we felt like it; it had no > connection with St. Martin's Day whatsoever that we were aware of. > > Regards, > Gabriele Kahn It is true that Westphalia is mostly Catholic. But in the cities like M?nster and especially in the Ruhr District, there is a mixture of catholics and protestants. Nearly every "part of town" has two churches, one catholic and one protestant. Maybe it's because of that mixture, but our protestant church organized "Laternenumz?ge" (going round with the lantern) and explicitly in connection with Sankt Martin and the parting of the coat. I am not sure, but it might have been organized by the two churches together. Sch?ne Gr??e Jan Strunk strunk at linguistics.ruhr-uni-bochum.de ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 22:53:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:53:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] denis dujardin wrote: > Not to forget: in West-Flemish: "t'spuuwt > kattejongen" (litt: "it is spitting kittens") > meaning : "It's raining cats and dogs". Time to spit out some expressions related to cats in Zeelandic. At random, first a variation on the one mentioned by Denis above: *_de katten spiee_: litt. the cats are spitting; it's going to rain *_de katte kom op 't koord"_: the cat's coming on the cord; it's getting tricky now *_da za de katte 't 'aer uutgae_: it will come out the cat's hair; it's going to be a close/near thing *_da geeve ik an de katte_: that, I give to the cat; I don't care about that *_allez, de katte van de plaete_: come on, (send) the cat of the fireplate; get out of the way *_z? gro?s as een katte die een daerm sleept_: as proud as a cat dragging a bowel; very proud *_e baemiskatte_: an 'autumn cat', litt. a very weak cat, but also used in respect to weak children A popular wisdom: "Negen weken jaege, negen weken draege, negen weken blind, da's de katte z'n kind." (Nine weeks of hunting nine weeks of carrying nine weeks blind, that's a cat's child) Has anyone heard of an equivalent of the Zeelandic _kattendans_ (fairy ring, Dutch: heksenkring), not only in the meaning of fungi growing in a circle, but also litterally a circle of dancing cats at night, putting a spell on someone and thus both causing the circle of fungi and putting the spell. The 'Woordenboek der Zeeuwse Dialecten' mentions a song: "Hand in hand, po?t in po?t, Jan van Balen z'n koeie is do?d" (Hand in hand paw in paw Jan van Balen's cow is dead) Regards, Marco ----------- From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.07 (04) [E] Some more expressions about cats: D: De kat in het donker knijpen WF: De kat yn 't tjuster knipe "To pinch a cat in the darkness" Do something illegal. D: Je moet de kat niet op het spek binden "You should not tie the cat to the pork" You should not lead somebody into temptation. D: Zij heeft de kat aan de kaas laten komen "She allowed the cat to the cheese" She let herself make pregnant D: Kat in't bakkie "Cat in the [cat]box" That was easy WF: Eine as in kat op n?tsdoppen "Proceed as a cat on nutshells" Proceed very slowly WF: De kat sil net mei myn mage fuort gean "The cat will not run away with my stomach" I am hungry Kind regards, Groetjes, Groetnis, Floor. ---------- From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Idiomatica" Here are some "cat" proverbs in Scots. I'm not good at interpreting proverbs (most seem to have multiple meanings to me and work best in some context), so I'll leave that as an excercise to the reader! A bawbee cat can leuk at a king. "A halfpeny cat can look at a king" (A cat may look at a queen) A blate cat maks a prood moose. "A shy cat makes a proud mouse" (When the cat's away the mice will play) Aa cats is grey in the dark. "All cats are grey in the dark" A scauded cat dreids cauld watter. "A scalded cat dreads cold watter" (Once bitten, twice shy) He can haud the cat an play wi the kitten. "He can hold the cat and play with the kitten" (He can chew gum and walk at the same time (but perhaps not intended so sarcastically!)) He's unco fond o fermin that wad harrow wi the cat. "He's remarkably fond of farming who would harrow with the cat" The cat's oot o the pock. "The cat's out of the bag" Wha daur bell the cat? "Who dares to bell the cat?" (This refers to the well-known Scottish concept that if only one mouse were brave enough to put a bell round the cat's neck, they could all raid the pantry) Ye glower like a cat oot o a whinbush. "You glare like a cat from (gorse/broom)" Ye wad clatter a cat tae daith. "You would chatter the cat to death" (You'd talk the hind legs off a donkey) Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 8 22:56:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 15:56:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Dawn Work MaKinne Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (05) [D/E] Dear Lowland-Experts, "Somewhere" in my files I think I have a reference to St-Martin Day having also a focus on the folkloric-figure/goddess Holla (Holle). I collect Holla references, and I have many of course relating to the Yule season December and January, but only found one reference to Holla festivities around November 11. Has anyone else heard of such a thing? Dawn in Des Moines, Iowa ---------- From: Thomas Byro thbyro at earthlink.net Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.01 (05) [D/E] I didn't know that Westphalia is mostly Catholic. I came from that portion that is like a peninsula stuck deep within Niedersachsen and the area was overwhelmingly Evangelish-Lutherisch. However, this does not mean that we saw the people of Niedersachsen as like us. I remember as a child, gaping at a woman who had moved to our area from Niedersachsen, like she was a martian. We even had a saying (which I remember in Hochdeutsch) "Sachsen, wo die Maedel an die Baueme wachsen". Tom ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 14:31:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 07:31:07 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.09 (01) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (06) [E] > From: Marco Evenhuis > Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.01 (03) [E] > > Has anyone heard of an equivalent of the Zeelandic > _kattendans_ (fairy ring, Dutch: heksenkring), not > only in the meaning of fungi growing in a circle, but > also litterally a circle of dancing cats at night, putting > a spell on someone and thus both causing the circle > of fungi and putting the spell. Dear Lowlanders, In the Plautdietsch dialect of Lower Saxon/Low German there are well-known expressions relating to the dancing of cats, as follows: Nu es de Kotadaunz doa! / Nu fangt de Kotadaunz aun! Literally translated into English they read: 'Now the dance of the tomcats is there! / begins!' They are exclamations of dismay or alarm at turmoil and/or recriminations that follow revelation of secretive or undesirable activities. These Plautdietsch expressions apparently do not relate to the casting of spells or to the growth of fungi. Reuben Epp ---------- From: johnno55 at excite.com johnno55 at excite.com Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.07 (05) [A/E] Groete aan almal in ons lys, Ek het Ron se boodskap deeglik ter harter geneem dus skryf ek sommer nou so 'n paar woordjies. Welkom Susan, dis lekker om jou hier by ons te h?. I am a "rooinek" who also loves Afrikaans even the Zimbabwean version where I once lived. Speaking of idioms with animals Afrikaans truly abounds with them "hy weet van iets soveel soos 'n bobbejaan van Godsdiens" and "ou koeie uit die sloot grawe". The first one is self explanatory but the second means remembering things which should have been forgotten (many wives are adept at this :)). I hope I wont be executed for this! John le Grange PS Ron your Afrikaans is vastly better than my Niedersachsies but I can at least read many of the sister languages easily thanks to the lowlander's list. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 14:35:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 07:35:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club botas at club-internet.fr Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.06 (04) [D] Hoi, Leeglanders: Marco schreef:. > Karel de Grote sprak een Oud-Brabants dialect Het lijkt me dat ik wat bijles nodig heb. In mijn hoofd zit nog vast wat ons op school (D) werd geleerd: Dat Karel de Grote middel-frankisch (of is het midden-frankish?) sprak, dat hij een administrative rijkstaal heeft gekre?erd gebaseerd op zijn eigen dialekt, en dat daaruit het "Duits" is voortgevloeid. Wie geeft me bijles? Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Mike-club botas at club-internet.fr Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.04 (01) [D] Hi, Lowlanders, Marco wrote: > Hier op Souburg zijn zo'n vijftig jaar geleden > enkele honderden Molukkers neergestreken op > een bevolking van (toen) ongeveer 4.500. In > getal deden ze wat dat betreft ook relatief gezien > ongetwijfeld niet onder voor het aantal Huge- > noten een paar eeuwen eerder. Toch geloof ik > niet dat er ook maar ??n Moluks-Maleis woord > in de lokale omgangstaal is doorgedrongen. En > dat terwijl ondertussen de derde generatie Moluk- > kers volwassen is en zich een vierde generatie aan- > dient. I feel that the change of environment between then and now also plays a role. Now: Mandatory schooling inescapably grabs every six-year old and shoves down his throat only one language, the so-called national language of the country - TV does the rest. What took generations then with plenty of chances for lingustic exchanges between the residents and newcomers is now achieved in one generation. Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 15:07:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:07:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (03) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) Subject: festivities Dear Lowlanders, after months of silence here comes a contribution from my part. For time reasons and due to personal circumstances I haven't checked all the postings of the previous months which meanwhile occupy quiete some space on my hard disk. Starting with the most recent postings I found the customs of St. Martin a very interesting subject since there is a typical song here in northern Emsland that children sing on that day when they go from house to house in the neighbourhood and ask for sweets: Kip Kap K?gel, s?nner Martins V?gel. Hier waant de rieke Mann, de us wall wat geven kann. Vele sch?ll he geven, lange sch?ll he leven. Nu laat us nich to lange staan, wi m??t noch'n H??sken wieder gaan. Wi m??t noch heel na Bremen. Bremen is 'ne grote Stadt, dor krieget alle Kinner wat. After this song the children hold their bags open and the housewife puts the candies in. When leaving the house they sing: Buur bind den Pudel an, dat he us nich bieten kann. Bitt he us, verklaag wi jau. Dusend Daaler kost' dat jau. Does anybody know the meaning of "Kip Kap K?gel" and "S?nner Martins V?gel" (=the birds of St. Martin ??) Ansgar Fehnker, I'm quite surprised that there is no St. Martins tradition in Teglingen as that place is only 30 km away from Wippingen. The other customs in the Meppen area are almost the same except for "Pinksterbl?mken" which is unknown here in Northern Emsland and H?mmling. Maybe you can tell about that. I would like to know if the custom of "Pinksterbl?mken" is still alive there. In the village of Schwefingen, where my mother was born, this tradition has died in the 1960s. However, I think that it still exists in the Hasel?nne region. Regards Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Festivities Moin, Zintus! Is prima Di wedder mank us to tellen! Lowlanders, I've long wondered what those birds of St. Martin's are. I assume there is some medieval legend behind it. Well, might the following be the answer? Martinsfischer (St. Martin's fisherman) The colloquial name for the kingfisher bird. The legend tells that St. Martin gave bright white feathers to an ugly black bird, and the kingfisher was born. (http://www.martin-von-tours.de/lexikon/englisch_lexikon.html) Below is a Low Frankish Martinmas song (M?lheim an der Ruhr) that also mentions the birds. (How would you classify the variety? It seems very Limbugish to me.) I had first shared this with you in November 1999. Hammel, Hans-Dieter (1967), _Bedeutung, Wortschatz und Weltbild der niederfr?nkischen Mundart von M?lheim an der Ruhr_; doctoral dissertation, Freiburg im Breisgau: Albert-Ludwigs-Universit?t. (Substitutions: ? for superscript e (schwa), ? for superscript a, ? for ?) Sint?r-M??t?s-Liit sint?r m??t?s f??j?lsch? h?t sun ruu?t kap??j?lsch?, ch?flooj?, ch?stoow? wiit, wiit ??w?r d? riin, wuu d? f?t? f?rk?s siin. chut frou, cheeft us wat, aal d? h?nnerk?s leej? wat! boow?n in d? f??sch? hang? d? lang? w??st?, cheeft us d? lang?, loot d? kot? hang?, loot us nit su lang hii stoon, w?i m??t? ?n h??sk? wid?r choon, hii fan d?n noo ??s?, hool?n ?n f?t?m bl??s?, hiif??r doof??r, f??r d? riik? koupmansd??r. Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann, der uns was geben kann; viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben, selig soll er sterben, das Himmelreich erwerben (~ ererben). d? maat dii l?p d? trap?n ?rop, pak waal in de n??t?sak, pak waal nit d?rneew?, sal us waal wat cheew?. chif wat, haul wat, teej?n't joor wi?r wat. sint?r m??t?s stupstat schmiit ?n ap?l duar dat chat, schmiit ?n nit t? wiit s?s f?lt h? in d?n driit (~ diik) schmiit ?n nit t? hat, s?s f?lt h? in dat chat. muus, muus, kum ?ruut, chif us ?p?l un n??t?, ?p?l un n??t? siint su chut f??r d?n aulen patsfut. German-based Orthography (R. F. Hahn) Sinter-M?tes-Lied Sinter M?tes V?jelsche h?tt su'n ruat Kap?jelsche, gefloje, gestowe wiet, wiet ?wer de Rhien, wu de fette Ferkes sien. Chutt Frou, geeft us wat! Aall de H?nnerkes leje wat! Bowen in de F??sche hange de lange W??ste. Geeft us de lange! Loot de kotte hange! Loot us nitt su lang hie stohn! w?i m?te en H??ske widder gohn, hie van denn noh ?se, holen en fettem Bl?se, hiev?r, dov?r, v?r de rieke Koupmannsd??r. Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann, der uns was geben kann; viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben, selig soll er sterben, das Himmelreich erwerben (~ ererben). De Maat, die l?pp de Trappen eropp, Pack wahl in de N?tesack, Pack wahl nitt dernewe, sall us wahl wat gewe. Giff wat, haul wat, Tejen't Johr wier wat. Sinter M?tes Stuppstatt schmiet en Appel duar dat Gatt. Schmiet en nitt te wiet, s?ss f?llt he in den Driet (~ Diek). Schmiet en nitt te hatt, s?ss f?llt he in dat Gatt. Muus, Muus, kumm eruut! Giff us ?ppel un N?te! ?ppel un N?te siend su gutt f?r den aulen Pattsfutt. Dutch-based Orthography (R. F. Hahn) (? as in German 'H?tte', ? as in Afrikaans 'h?' with long and short versions, oe short before double letters) Zinter-M?tes-Lied Zinter M?tes vujelsje het zoenn roe?d kapujelsje, gefloje, gesjtowe wied, wied euwer de Rien woe de vette verkes zien. Goedd frou, geeft oess wat! Aal de h?nnerkes leje wat! Bowen in de v??sje hange de lange weuste. Geeft oess de lange! Loot de kotte hange! Loot oess nit zoe lang hie sjtoon! Wei mute en huuske widder goon, hie van den no Esse, holen en vettem blesse, hie vuur, do vuur, vuur de rieke koupmansduur. Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann, der uns was geben kann; viel soll er geben, lang soll er leben, selig soll er sterben, das Himmelreich erwerben (~ ererben). De maat, die lup de trappen erop, pak waal in de neutezak, pak waal nit dernewe, zal oess waal wat gewe. Gif wat, hauwl wat, tejen't joor wier wat. Zinter M?tes sjtoepp-sjtat sjmiet en appel doe?r dat gat. Sjmiet en nit te wied, z?s felt he in den driet (~ diek). Sjmiet en nit te hat, z?s felt he in dat gat. Moes, moes, koemm eroet! Gif oess eppel oenn neute! Eppel oenn neute ziend zoe goedd vuur den auwlen patsfoett. English translation (R. F. Hahn) Martinmas Song Saint Martin's little bird had one of those little red hoods, has flown, was blown far, far across the Rhine where the chubby piglets are. Good lady, give us something! All the chickens lay something! Up there in the gable long sausages are hanging. Give us the long one! Leave the short one hanging! Don't let us stand here all that long! We've got to go to the next house, from here all the way to Essen, taking along a fat cow with a blaze in front of this, in front of that, in front of the rich merchant's door. A wealthy man lives here who can give us things. He's got to give us plenty. Long shall he live! Blissfully he shall die, shall receive (~ inherit) the heavenly realm! The maid runs up the stairs, puts her hand into the bag of nuts. Her hand surely won't miss. She surely will give us some. Give a little, hold a little, and some more a year from now. Saint Martin's stubby tail flings an apple through the hole. Don't fling it too far, or it will fall in the muck (~ pond). Don't fling it too hard, or it will fall in the hole. Mouse, mouse, come on out! Give us apples and nuts! Apples and nuts are oh so sweet for the old horse's ass. Alternative version in Hans Reis, _Die deutsche Mundartdichtung_, Berlin, Leipzig: G?schen, 1915; pp.13-14: Sinter Meetes V?gelsche Het sun ruat Kap?gelsche Chefloge, chestowe Wahl ?wer de Rhin, Wu die fette Ferkes sind. Chut Frau, cheeft us wat, All de Huhner lege wat. Bowen in de Feesche Hangen de langen W??ste. Cheft us de lange. L?t de kooten hange Lod us nit su lang hii schtoon, Wi m?te noch en H?ske wider choon, Hi fan den no Esse, Holen en fettem Blesse. Hief?r, dof?r, F?r de rike Kaupmannsd?r. Hier wohnt ein reicher Mann, Der uns was cheben kann Viel soll er cheben, Selig soll er schterben, Das Himmelreich erwerben. De Maate l??p de Trappen erop, Pack wahl in de N??tesack, Pack wahl ni drneewe, Se weed us wahl wat cheewe. Chif wat, hoult wat Neechent Johr wier wat. Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 20:17:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:17:37 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.09 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Dear Lowlanders, Not that we do not already have more projects than you can shake a stick at, but I feel compelled to point you to an online audiovisual language presentation in the Tanacross Athabascan language of Alaska (http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/languages.html, http://www.uaf.edu/anlc/langs/tc.html). This might well be something that could be applied to Lowlands language varieties, especially to those that are rarely heard and those for which basic teaching material (especially for children) is needed: "Fishing Place": http://archives.anlc.uaf.edu/langs/tc/fish/ "What I Do": http://archives.anlc.uaf.edu/langs/tc/whatIdo/ And talking of "projects," let me remind you of our evolving Lowlands-l companion presentation "Lowlands Talk": http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/ One person said he had difficulties navigating the site. Here are easy instructions for those who need them: 1 --> Go to http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk 2 --> Choose the language you want to read in.* 3 --> Click on any Lowlands language variety on the left (or on the bottom): Afrikaans ( ) Appalachian ( ) Dutch English ( ) [being worked on] Frisian Limburgish Low Saxon Scots Zeelandic ( ) Contact Languages * So far, there are more finished versions in English than in the other languages. Some more are being worked on, and some have not yet been started. We would be grateful fore translation help, especially French. ( ) not yet finished, but sub-categories may be finished We could definitely do with some help: (1) writing brief introductions to Afrikaans, Appalachian and Zeelandic (2) writing brief(er) introductions to more specific sub-category varieties, also to various contact languages (creoles, pidgins, and other "mixed" varieties, such as Missingsch). (3) translate already finished versions into the remaining languages If you wish to help, please write to me (sassisch at yahoo.com). Thanks, and regards! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 20:59:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 13:59:56 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] Dear Lowlanders, Mike schreef: > Marco schreef:. > > Karel de Grote sprak een Oud-Brabants dialect > Het lijkt me dat ik wat bijles nodig heb. > In mijn hoofd zit nog vast wat ons op school (D) > werd geleerd: Dat Karel de Grote middel-frankisch > (of is het midden-frankish?) sprak, dat hij een > administrative rijkstaal heeft gekre?erd gebaseerd > op zijn eigen dialekt, en dat daaruit het "Duits" is > voortgevloeid. Het citaat dat Mike noemt, is niet van mij afkomstig. Niettemin een reactie. 'Oud-Brabants' lijkt me in dit verband een wat tendentieuze term, maar ik denk dat ik wel begrijp welke kant de schrijver (wie was dat overigens?) ermee bedoelt. Het Brabants is de west- germaanse streektaal met het meest (westneder-) Fran- kische karakter. Terugredeneren als zou Karel de Grote als spreker van het middelfrankisch 'dus' een soort oud- Brabants gesproken hebben, gaat zoals gezegd wel ?rg ver... Quoting Mike again: > Marco wrote: > > Hier op Souburg zijn zo'n vijftig jaar geleden > > enkele honderden Molukkers neergestreken op > > een bevolking van (toen) ongeveer 4.500. In > > getal deden ze wat dat betreft ook relatief gezien > > ongetwijfeld niet onder voor het aantal Huge- > > noten een paar eeuwen eerder. Toch geloof ik > > niet dat er ook maar ??n Moluks-Maleis woord > > in de lokale omgangstaal is doorgedrongen. En > > dat terwijl ondertussen de derde generatie Moluk- > > kers volwassen is en zich een vierde generatie aan- > > dient. > I feel that the change of environment between then > and now also plays a role. > Now: > Mandatory schooling inescapably grabs every > six-year old and shoves down his throat only > one language, the so-called national language > of the country - TV does the rest. > What took generations then with plenty of chances > for lingustic exchanges between the residents > and newcomers is now achieved in one > generation. Point well taken. But there is a small detail that is pretty important in this respect: even the fourth generation of people from the Moluccan Islands still speak their native language (Moluccan Malay) among themselves and the speak it perfectly! So there h?ve been generations with plenty of chances for linguistic exchanges, but there has not been any direct influence on the local dialect whasoever. Maybe the social prestige of the French Huguenots was much higher than that of the Moluccans. Maybe the Moluccans tend to keep their language to their own community more then the Huguenots did. May- be the Moluccan Malay influence on our local dialect will grow when the language dies out, with Moluccans speaking Dutch and using Moluccan Malay terms for things they can not name in Dutch... regards/groetjes, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 22:19:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:19:53 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (06) [E/Z] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] Gabriele Kahn wrote: > Actually, the "Rommelpot" is a Dutch tradition as well. There's a song that > goes with it: > > "Rommelpotterij, rommelpotterij, > geef maar 'n centje, dan ga ik voorbij. > 'k Heb geen geld om brood te kopen, > daarom moet ik met de rommelpot lopen. > Rommelpotterij, rommelpotterij, > geef maar 'n centje, dan ga ik voorbij." > > The song seems to indicate that the "rommelpot" is an implement used by > beggars going from door to door. I don't know much about the circumstances, > I'm afraid. We in "Ze?land", especially in Zuid-Beveland use exactly the same song, but then we say "koenkelpot " in stead of "Rommelpot". It was used on the evening before newyearsday. As you can see in a column I wrote in Ze?landic for a local newspaper: Halloween in Ze?land Ei julder 't ok oal ezie: die pompoenen, heksen en spinnen in de wienkels ? Op 31 oktober wor Halloween evierd. 't Schient da Halloween een soort Nieuwjaer is en da mie de lichtjes in de pompoenen de ge?sten van dooie familie verwelkomd worre. In Amerika ga? de huus die aevond verkle?d de straete op. Ze komme dan an je deure een liedje zienge om snoepjes te verdienen In Nederland do? me dat mie St. Maarten op 11 november. Da? ? ik vroeger ok nog w?'s een liedje over eleerd mie een koeie en staerten glo?'k en dan liep je mie een lampion rond. Bie oans do? ze da? nie echt an mee, want ik ? gin kind an de deure ehad. Ik oa w? vee snoep in uus, want oanze oudsten was n?t viere eworre. En a je viere bin, mag je na? schole. Een e?le veranderienge voe zo'n kind. De juffrouw op schole, ok een echte Zeeuwse, oa d'r w? begrip voe da ze most wenne. Dus toen a d'r opa een keer meegoeng, mocht 'n even in de krieng meedo? en een Zeeuws liedje zienge dat a oanze dochter goed kent: Koenkelpotterij, koenkelpotterij g? me een centje dan ga'k voorbij: "'K ? zo lank mie m'n koenkelpot el?pe, 'k ? gin geld om een bro?dje te k?pe, Vrouwe geef me dit, vrouwe geef me dat geef me een stik van 't verreke z'n gat: vier p?ten en een staert, vrouwe is dat gin centje waerd vier p?ten en een staert, vrouwe is dat gin centje waerd!" Mie de koenkelpot l?pe de? me in Ze?land mie d'n ouwejaer. In Yese is d'r een club mensen die a dat nog steeds doe. Eigenlijk is dat oans "Halloween", alleen do? oans 't in tw? keer: Wie a nog een trommel, een verrekesblaeze en een stro?tje over eit, kan van Oud op Nieuw ?k mie de koenkelpot gel?pe. En 't verkle?? Dat do? me mie de Carnaval. Ommers; de optocht in 't Paerehat wor oaltiet eregeld deur...juust: de Koenkelpot. Om 't kriengetje aelemille rond te maeken: mie St. Maarten (d'n 11-den van d 'n elfden) begunne de caranavalsvoorbereidingen en is't motto voe kommende jaere wee bekend emikt. Me zoue in Ze?land dus zelfs 3 keer per jaer Halloween kunne viere! ExpresZo (dirrom z?) Hope to have added some interesting information. Kind regard, Margot van Baalen ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Festivities Here is a German definition of a _Rummelpott_: Zu fr?heren Zeiten (ca. 1860) gingen zu Martini die Jungen mit Rummelpotten und die M?dchen mit Kip-Kap-K?gels. Der Rummelpott besteht aus einem mit Wasser gef?llten Topf oder kleinem Fa?. ?ber diesen Beh?lter wird stramm ein St?ck eingeweichte Schweinsblase gezogen. In der Mitte der Schweinsblase wird ein St?ck Spanisches Rohr befestigt. The cane is rubbed up and down with a wet hand, and a not especially musical sound is thus produced. Translation: "In earlier times (approx. 1860), during Martinmas boys would go around with _Rummelpotts_ ("rumble pots") and girls with _Kip Kap K?gels_. The _Rummelpott_ consisted of a pot or small cask filled with water. A pig's bladder is tightly affixed across the opening as a membrane. A piece of cane is attached in the center of the membrane. In the center of the pig blister a piece Spanish pipe is fastened. One rubs off with a damp hand against the pipe on and, then develops a clay/tone, which is not very musical." Other sources call for using a cloth to rub the cane. De rommelpot komt uitstekend tot zijn recht in traditionele volksdansmuziek, bijvoorbeeld in combinatie met doedelzak. Vroeger werd het instrument ook gebruikt ter ondersteuning van straatzang op Sint Maarten, Vastenavond of Driekoningen. Translation: "The _rommelpot_ is featured at its best in traditional folkdance music, for instance in combination with bagpipes. In earlier times it used to be used in support of street singing during Martinmas, Shrove Tuesdays (Mardi Gras) and Epiphany." ("Rommelpot" AND bagpipes ... Fortunately I like both.) Here the Dutch source with pictures http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/luc.dordregter/rommelpo.htm http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/luc.dordregter/ro4.htm Een rommelpot is een instrument. Geen speelgoed. Het neemt eigenlijk de rol van de bas over. Translation: "A _rommelpot_ is an instrument, not a toy. In actual fact, it plays the part of the bass." (I wish they would create the _rommelpot_ sound (which some perceive as somewhat rude) for the MIDI instrument selection so I can add it to my budding collection of Lowlands renaissance folkdances.) Some English sources call this type of instrument a "friction drum." It has many counterparts all over the world, also in Southern Europe (e.g., the Italian _pu-ti-p?_, the Greek _ghourgho?ra_ and the Spanish _zambomba_. It is also found in India (the _baghra) in Orissa and the _nar hunkarnio_ in Rajastan). There are countless African counterparts, some of which have evolved into Caribbean and South American instruments. And there are also some pre-Columbian Central American ones. Below please find a few links to sites about _Rummelpott_- and _rommelpot_-related activities: Rummelpott in Flensburg (now unfortunately the northernmost city in which Lowlands Saxon [Low German] is used): http://www.flensburg-online.de/diverses/rummelpott.html Rummelpott songs: http://www.flensburg-online.de/diverses/rummelpott5.html Rummelpott in Schleswig-Holstein: http://www.sh-tourist.de/radderge/braeuche/sylveste/rummpott.htm Here you can listen to a Martinmas song from Eastern Friesland: http://www.plattplanet.de/fpx/martens.ram http://www.plattplanet.de/fpx/kippkapp.ram Enjoy! Reinhard/Ron P.S.: I still don't know what a _Kip(p-) Kap(p-) K?gel_ is. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 9 22:24:20 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 15:24:20 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 09.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.09 (01) [A/E] John le Grange schreef: > I am a "rooinek" who also loves Afrikaans even the Zimbabwean version > where I once lived. Omdat Afrikaans letterlijk zo ver van ons vandaan ligt, maar figuurlijk zo dichtbij komt, is het misschien goed om uit te leg- gen wat de verschillen zijn tussen normaal Afrikaans en het Afrikaans zoals dat in Zimbabwe gesproken wordt. Ik zou er zelf in elk geval graag meer van weten! Groetjes, Marco ---------- From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] > From: Mike-club botas at club-internet.fr > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.06 (04) [D] > > Hoi, Leeglanders: > Marco schreef:. >> Karel de Grote sprak een Oud-Brabants dialect Sorry Mike, Maar dat was mezelf (Luc Vanbrabant) die dat geschreven heeft met een berichtje naar Marco. Inderdaad: In Frankrijk beschouwen ze Karel de Grote als een (vroege) Fransman. En in Duitsland beschouwen ze Karel de Grote als een( vroege) Duitser! Wie heeft er nu gelijk? De waarheid ligt hier in het (geografische) midden. Karel de Grote is hoogstwaarschijnlijk geboren in de buurt van Luik , toen nog een Dietse stad (Jupille? - Herstal?). Ik heb dat enkele maanden geleden gelezen in een Belgische krant ("De Morgen" denk ik, maar het kan ook "De Standaard" geweest zijn). Daar beweerden de historici dat Karel de Grote als geschiedkundige figuur door onze twee grote buurlanden afgesnoept was. Als u kijkt naar zijn (voor)ouders, dan stammen die allemaal af van wat nu Brabant of Limburg genoemd wordt. Het zijn pas de nakomelingen die de 'Duitse' en 'Franse' gebieden op de kaart zetten. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 16:23:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:23:38 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Customs" 2002.10.10 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Himmel Brief Hi all! Thanks to Luc Ron, Marco, Floor, Gabrielle and others for your great responses to my enquiries about lowland cat talk and Afrikaans! New topic - my maternal grandfather said that in his youth many German speaking families in rural Ontario put up framed embroidered - sometimes decorated - prayers they called Himmels Briefs - letters to heaven. He recalled these were sometimes composed in dialect - often the only time Platt or "Pennsylvania Dutch" would be seen written. I myself have seen whole ballads of a religious caste such as "La Plainte Du Juif Errant" (Lament of the Wandering Jew) and "La Passion de Jesus Christ" ("Passion" meaning sufferings) similarly displayed in farmhouse parlours in rural Quebec. Do other lowlanders have similar examples to share? I believe some of the Huguenot relatives of my father's family also followed this practice in Holland. Alle die beste George M. Gibault ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 16:28:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:28:21 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.10 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (06) [E/Z] I read that I am supposed to be the author of the following: > From: Marco Evenhuis > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (02) [D/E] > > Gabriele Kahn wrote: > > Actually, the "Rommelpot" is a Dutch tradition as well. There's a song > that > > goes with it: (...) > We in "Ze?land", especially in Zuid-Beveland use exactly the same song, but > then we say "koenkelpot " in stead of "Rommelpot". It was used on the > evening before newyearsday. As you can see in a column I wrote in Ze?landic > for a local newspaper: etc. Just like the message posted under language varieties about Charlemagne speaking Frankish, I was not the author! Margot van Baalen wrote this piece about the _koenkelpot_, a custom that was once known through- out Zeeland, but is now only in use in some villages on the former island of Zuid-Beveland. regards, Marco --------- From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (03) [E/LS] > From: Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) > > Ansgar Fehnker, I'm quite surprised that there is no St. Martins tradition > in Teglingen as that place is only 30 km away from Wippingen. The other > customs in the Meppen area are almost the same except for "Pinksterbl?mken" > which is unknown here in Northern Emsland and H?mmling. Maybe you can tell > about that. I would like to know if the custom of "Pinksterbl?mken" is still > alive there. In the village of Schwefingen, where my mother was born, this > tradition has died in the 1960s. However, I think that it still exists in > the Hasel?nne region. Frankly, I wouldn't know what a "Pinksterbl?mken" is. Regarding the St Martin tradition I would guess that keeping this kind of traditions alive depends also on individuals who take the responsibility. When I grew up in the late 70's we also didn't do the ususal "three kings singing". Later, when I was involved in the church youth group, there was somebody to took the lead, and organized the "three kings singing" again. And it was fun. So, what is a Pinksterbl?mken? Ansgar ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 16:49:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 09:49:28 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.10 (03) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Swanepoels Subject: Afrikaans John le Grange, Heerlik om van 'n oud-Zimbabwe?r te hoor hier op LL-L. Net soos Marco wil ek graag van jou die verskille tussen Afrikaans en Afrikaans in Zim. hoor / sien. Miskien idiomatiek / uitspraak / eienaardighede wat betref groetgewoontes / kleinpraatjies soos oor die geduldige onderwerp van die weer ens.?? I am intrigued by this wonderful new source of instant knowledge and interaction. How remarkably close are all our languages, sometimes even in spite of being removed literally thousands of miles from the origin. Hoop om gou van jou te hoor John. Susan [Swanepoel] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Afrikaans Susan, John en andere Laaglanders, > Net soos Marco wil ek graag van jou die verskille tussen Afrikaans en Afrikaans in Zim. hoor / > sien. Miskien idiomatiek / uitspraak / eienaardighede wat betref groetgewoontes / kleinpraatjies > soos oor die geduldige onderwerp van die weer ens.?? Ek ook! Miskien ook 'n korte inleiding ("sub-blurb") tot Zimbabwe-Afrikaans voor "Lowland Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/)? Ons het ook nog 'n hoofinleiding ("main blurb") vir "Afrikaans" (algemeen) nodig. Het ons een of twee vrywilligers? (Of is dit te gretig om te vra?) Groetjies! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 17:19:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:19:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.10 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Lowlanders, I am sure quite a few of you would be interested in the following website with background information for glossophiles like us (despite the unfortunate, superceded German name "Indogermanisch"): http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/didact/didact2.htm Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 17:22:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 10:22:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: What dialect do they speak in the far northeast of Germany? Lowlanders, Hello, Lowlanders and highlanders alike, I had a question for the list. What dialect is spoken in far northeastern Germany? How does it look? What is it called? What state speaks it? Thanks. Manfisher ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 21:33:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 14:33:51 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.10 (06) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.10 (02) [E] > From: Ansgar Fehnker > Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (03) [E/LS] > >> From: Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) >> >> Ansgar Fehnker, I'm quite surprised that there is no St. Martins >> tradition >> in Teglingen as that place is only 30 km away from Wippingen. The >> other >> customs in the Meppen area are almost the same except for > "Pinksterbl?mken" >> which is unknown here in Northern Emsland and H?mmling. Maybe you can >> tell >> about that. I would like to know if the custom of "Pinksterbl?mken" is > still >> alive there. In the village of Schwefingen, where my mother was born, >> this >> tradition has died in the 1960s. However, I think that it still >> exists in >> the Hasel?nne region. > > Frankly, I wouldn't know what a "Pinksterbl?mken" is. Regarding the St > Martin tradition I would guess that keeping this kind of traditions > alive depends also on individuals who take the responsibility. When I > grew up in the late 70's we also didn't do the ususal "three kings > singing". Later, when I was involved in the church youth group, there > was somebody to took the lead, and organized the "three kings singing" > again. And it was fun. > > So, what is a Pinksterbl?mken? > > Ansgar Dear Ansgar, In Dutch: "Een pinksterbloem", is een bloem die rond de tijd van Pinksteren bloeit.Het wordt ook wel veldkers of koekoeksbloem of geel lis genoemd. Dit is de letterlijke betekenis. Een pinksterbloem is ook een jong meisje dat met bloemen en sieraden getooid werd en op Pinksteren rondgedragen of rondgeleid. Daarbij werd gezongen en geld ingezameld.Dat meisje werd ook de pinksterbruid genoemd. Nu betekent het ook nog iemand die zich in het nieuw steekt met Pinksteren. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Festivities In many parts of Europe, including much of the Germanic-speaking area, Christian Whitsun ~ Pentecost replaced various types of pre-Christian fertility and courtship festivities. In the Middle Ages, this was the time for "goin' courtin'," involving all sorts of rituals, some less mentionable than dancing. In many traditions it involved also the maypole (which can be found thoughout Eurasia, as far as Eastern Central Asia), whose shamanist symbolism is that of both fertility (Need I explain?)and connection between earth and heaven (thus, a rather Tantric approach). (A glimpse at the medieval goings-on is offered for instance in the section "Uf dem anger" [On the Meadow] in the _Carmina Burana_, a medieval Latin-French-German song cycle made famous by the composer Carl Orff. See here for the words and their translation: http://www.mgeurts.tmfweb.nl/carmlyr.htm) In Germany, including Northern, Lowlands Germany, Whitsuntide celebrates the height of spring (formerly as the beginning of Summer, or Midsummer), which nowadays is still marked by way of special flower decoration in home and church. In some areas' folk customs some remnants of the old courtship/fertility rituals survive in fragments. (Among the Slavonic Sorbs of Germany, this has been distributed over the customs of "Easter Riding," "Birds' Wedding," and the like, involving round-dances, wedding-like celebrations and a custom in which the unmarried men build flower-decorated bowers or gazebos for the unmarried women to meet in and sing while being watched/chosen by potential suitors.) What Zintus and Luc referred to is no doubt a part of all that. What exactly the people of the northwest do, I do not know. In some parts of Germany there are celebrations revolving around a "Whitsun Bride" (_Pfingstbraut_, or _P?nk?sdikir?lyn?_ "Whitsun Queen" as in Hungary) and a "Whitsun King" (Pfingstk?nig), and bunches of flower-bearing maidens. A very nice overview of it is provided here (in German): http://www.religioeses-brauchtum.de/sommer/pfingsten.html Similar customs survive in Scandinavia, Britain and throughout Eastern Europe (e.g., http://www.dailyastorian.com/Scandi/History.html, http://www.headmap.com/book/words/thegoldenbough/19.html, http://www.cyberwitch.com/wychwood/Temple/midsummer.htm). Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 22:19:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 15:19:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (07) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.09 (05) [E] Sorry, Marco, for the misquote. With the quotes-in-quotes-in-quotes in some ll-listings it?s easy to make mistakes. Cheers to all, Mike Wintzer ----- Original Message ----- > Het citaat dat Mike noemt, is niet van mij afkomstig. > > regards/groetjes, > > Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 23:36:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:36:28 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (05) [E] Ben, This is a harder question than you might think to answer. After the end of the Second World War, Eastern Germany was cut off and given to Poland. The population was resettled, many in northwestern Germany. The old north Eastern Germany was called Prussia (West and East) and in most of the Baltic coast part of it a form of Platt - rather similar to other north German dialects was spoken. What is nowadays called east Germany (which I think you were asking about) is historically considered mid Germany. the northeastern corner of it is part of Pomerania, where a Platt dialect is also spoken. The term Platt or Plaut means "flat" not because of its intonation - but because this was the obvious difference between the northern German lands and the mountainous south. Platt dialects did not undergo the great consonant shift which made Hoch Deutsch - standard German - so different from our Lowland tongues. For example Wasser in Hoch - water in English. On the other hand, Platt dialects did not undergo the great vowel shift which made English sound so different from other Germanic tongues. e.g. English "make" once sounded more like "mock" - much closer to the vowel sound in Platt dialects today. No standard Platt dialect ever emerged, and so there is a gradual change from place to place in the local speech as you go from west to east across northern Germany - but if you go south you will suddenly notice a sharp change where the great consonant shift takes hold. The dialects spoken between France and Poland south of Denmark and north of Cologne (roughly) thus mostly preserve a much older pronunciation - closer to the English of the middle ages which you may have heard in reconstructions of the original speech in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales. The same is true of braid (broad) Scots - in which, for example the "ch" in nicht is pronounced as the "gh" in English night was in the Middle Ages. (Compare German "nacht") Pomerania was Baltic and Slavic before being Germanized and so their local dialects will show some of these influences as well. ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (06) [E/Z] Ron wrote in passing: "Flensburg (now unfortunately the northernmost city in which Lowlands Saxon [Low German] is used)" Ron, do I take it that L-S was formerly spoken North of the present "national boundary"? My ignorance must seem even more appalling if I confess to having spent my school years in Rendsburg, less than 100km from the border. In those days we sold "Bausteine" in support of the "Deutschtum in Nord- Schleswig". And I (we) believed it, til today. Who was there (in the early 50s) to tell us otherwise? Not even the existence of L-S was ever mentioned in school (although it was still spoken all around us, it was the "Bauerndialekt", the despised "platt"). This demonstrates the ethnocidic charakter of the mandatory "national" school systems, the German one in any case. Nevertheless, dear Lowlanders, keep up the spirits and the good work! Mike Wintzer ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Mike, > > "Flensburg (now unfortunately the northernmost city in which > > Lowlands Saxon [Low German] is used)" > Ron, do I take it that L-S was formerly > spoken North of the present "national > boundary"? Well, think about it, Mike. Among the "German" dialects, the "Low German" ones have been the northernmost ones for ages. On much of the peninsula that contains the parts "Hulsteen/Holstein," "Sleswig/Schleswig/Slesvig" and "Jylland" (Jutland), "Germans" and "Danes" have been coexisting in a sort of overlap area, much of which went back and forth between German and Danish rule. Now there is a "German" minority in Denmark and a "Danish" minority in Germany. Would anyone *really* believe that what is now the German-Danish border has always coincided with the northern borderline of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) language? (Recent northward spread is hardly a possibility given that it is rare for underdog languages to enlarge their territory, unless it is through faraway emigration.) The two main populations that originally overlapped in that area were speakers of Lowlands Saxon and Southern Jutish (considered Danish dialects by most in Denmark). From what I read and hear, I gather there was a fair degree of intermingling and mutual language adoption. (Someone -- I forgot who -- wrote a book about "Low German on Danish substrate.) Sure, "High"-German-speakers and Standard Danish speakers have been among them for a long time, especially in the upper echelon. As I understand it, the deathknell came with official partition at today's border after World War II. In the mutual agreement there was only talk of "Danish" and "German" language rights for the respective minorities, consistent with the official ethnic labels. Thus, the suppression, low prestige and disregard of Lowlands Saxon in Germany came to extend to Denmark, in administration, schools, churches, media, etc. What survival chance do you think a language has that is "minority within minority"? I do not know what the state of affairs is for Southern Jutish in Germany these days, but I assume it is not good either, although I have been told that there are still speakers of it, even occasional radio blurbs. I hardly think it is appropriate to point the finger at Denmark (though I still wonder why North Frisian died out there -- perhaps for the same reason?). The traditional pattern is a general one, certainly in Europe: national label > ethnic label > language assignment -- the basic assumptions being based on the ideal that nation, ethnicity and language should be one, that diversity is an inconvenience rather than a blessing. Ben: George's description (above) is right on the money. The dialects are the West Pomeranian ones of Lowlands Saxon (Low German), used in the eastern part of the state of Mecklenburg-Western-Pomerania (German _Mecklenburg-Vorpommern_, LS _Mekelnborg-V?rpommern_), up to today's Polish border, east of which East Pomeranian (or West Prussian) and East Prussian dialects used to be used. West Pomeranian dialects have some of the typically eastern (Slavic-substrate) characteristics, albeit less pronounced than farther east. In most of them, _?_ and _?_ survive, while farther east they become _e_ and _i_ repectively. Also, most dialects of that area do not have the eastern shift _g_ > _j_. One Slavonic characteristic is the diminutive suffix _-ing_ or _-ink_ (< _-inke_ < _-inka_), e.g., _Gr?tting_ 'grampa', but also German-influenced _Gro?murrer_, as in the dialect of Stralsund (http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/probe05.htm): As ik noch 'n l?tt'n Jung'n wer, t?rfte ich an j?idn Sommer norn Land gorn. Mihn Gr?tting n?hm mi dormals opp. Dat wi? de Tiit as wi noch in ?ers'n Kriich wiern. Dor geff dat noch Boller, dor wier ne Kouh, dor haat wii wat to drinkn - all dat watt wi to Huus inne Stadt noch nich hebbm d?idn, dat f?nn' wi bi uns Gro?murrer. Unn dor kr?ign wi dat denn okk. Dor schp??lten wi okk rumm. Mihn Gro?murrer kunn ?wer haupt blo? Plattd?tsch. 'Hochdeutsch' - dat k?nn se nie. Doovonn verschdoh se nix, datt harr se, as se jung wer, schon ... nich anners mehr liert, unn dor bl?if se denn okk. Unn die ganze Familie ?mm enn r?mm, die wi dor kennen lernen d?idn, dee wi? noch ?al so ?hnlich. Dor k?m so por l?dde M?gns, de k?m'n dann 'rinn unn schr?in dann: "Morr?ing, kann ikk f?tt di j?tz, j?tz morl ... 'n Schd?ck Porr?ing kriegn?" Au' di Morrer d?i wi? dann da f??r unn s?i denn: "Jawohl, ?lling g?ign, igg g?ff di gliik ein Boller Schmolltinken." Schmollt, door wi? mi Morrer nich. Mi Murrer harr edd to h?pp mit Schmollt nix ssu dounn, de wi?r v?rre Boller. Unn dee kr?ign wii dor denn okk. The most famous writer of Northeastern LS is Fritz Reuter (1810-1874), though his dialect of Stavenhagen might best be considered a southeast Mecklenburg one. D?fft b?n ick ok un heww ok P?dings hatt: vir St?ck. Un wenn min vir P?dings noch lewten un g?ngen mit mi ?wer de Strat, denn w?rden de L?d' still stahn un seggen: "Kikt, wat s?nd dat f?r lange Kirls! Nah so'n Ort kann ein up Stunn'ns lang s?uken; dat s?nd noch P?dings!" === I was baptized, too, and used to have godfathers -- four of them. And if my godfathers were still alive and would cross the street with me, then people would stop and say, "Look, how tall those fellows are! It would take you quite a while to find this sort these days. That's what I call 'godfathers'!" Low Saxon, in "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 10 23:56:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2002 16:56:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.10 (09) [A] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 10.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Swanepoels swanepoels at cmsinter.net Subject: Afrikaanse taal Vir meeste Afrikaanssprekendes is die Nederlandse taal wel "lievelijk" en aangenaam op die oor. Wat my betref, sou ek kon s? dat ek byna verslaaf is daaraan, om iemand goed te hoor Nederlands praat.Dankie Ria, vir jou wonderlike kasette wat ek van tyd tot tyd ontvang, met Nederlands (onverdun) so goed deur jou gepraat, daarop. Sommige van die ouer garde (Suid Afrikaners) het nie 'n affiniteit daarvoor nie, omdat daar in die geskiedenis van die ontwikkeling van die Afrikaanse taal, 'n tydperk was, waar dit deur middel van wetgewing, op die jong Afrikanervolk afgevorseer was. Die kinders op skool (en ook in die kerk) mog destyds net Nederlands lees of skryf, ten spyte van die feit dat die jong Afrikaanse taal, hul huistaal was. Die nuwe /latere geslagte word geensins hierdeur be?nvloed nie en geniet dit sonder voorbehoud (d.w.s. die "glossophiles" onder hulle). Daar is ook wonderlike dialekte in Suid Afrika, wat streeksgebonde is, en ontwikkel het vanuit die kleurvolle verskeidenheid kulture. 'n Fees vir die oor en die hart. Kosbare kleinode. Nog 'n paar idiome / uitdrukkings wat vanuit die ryk dierelewe van Afrika ge?nspireer is en waarby John moontlik kan aanlas: Hy kan nie hond haaraf maak nie (he can not convince someone to change their mind / he can not succeed) Hy is vol jakkalsstreke (he is very sly) Jakkals trou met wolf se vrou (said when it is actually raining, while the sun is still shining) Hy het nie al sy varkies op hok nie (he is crazy) Interessant sou wees as iemand 'n paar Nederlandse eweknie? sou instuur ter vergelyking. Groetjies Susan vanuit Michigan [Susan Swanepoel] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 16:29:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 09:29:40 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.11 (01) [A/D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.10 (09) [A] > From: Swanepoels swanepoels at cmsinter.net > Subject: Afrikaanse taal > > Nog 'n paar idiome / uitdrukkings wat vanuit die ryk dierelewe van > Afrika > ge?nspireer is en waarby John moontlik kan aanlas: > Hy kan nie hond haaraf maak nie (he can not convince someone to change > their > mind / he can not succeed) > Hy is vol jakkalsstreke (he is very sly) > Jakkals trou met wolf se vrou (said when it is actually raining, while > the > sun is still shining) > Hy het nie al sy varkies op hok nie (he is crazy) > Interessant sou wees as iemand 'n paar Nederlandse eweknie? sou > instuur ter > vergelyking. > Groetjies > Susan vanuit Michigan > > [Susan Swanepoel] Beste Susan (Swanepoel is in onze streken een relatief veel voorkomende naam), Hieronder vind je enkele uitdrukkingen of zegswijzen over honden in het West-Vlaams. Men zou der ge?n hond deurejaog'n (slecht weer) Die hond is, moet be?n knaog'n (Wie arm is, moet het verdragen) Voor hond en hazewind lo?p'n (rondzwerven) Hoe nader den hond hoe nader de bete (niet te familiair zijn met de baas want je kan rap in ongenade vallen) Overe?nkomm' lijk katt'n en hond'n (altijd ruzie maken) Met onwillige hond'n kan men ge?n hoaz'n vang'n(Met iemand die altijd dwars ligt, kan men niet veel aanvangen) Lik nen hond van zijnen stront (Veel te vlug met iets stoppen) En hier enkele in het Nederlands: Zo moe als een hond (uitgeput zijn) Er was geen hond te zien (Er was niemand) Zo ziek als een hond (heel ziek) Als men een hond wil slaan, kan men vlug een stok vinden (Er is vlug iets gevonden om iemand kwaad te doen) Dode honden bijten niet (Wie dood is, kan je niets meer doen). Blaffende honden bijten niet (Men moet niet zo bang zijn van iemand die altijd maar dreigt) Als twee honden vechten om een been,loopt een derde ermee heen (Van onenigheid tussen 2 personen profiteert soms een derde) Twee kwade honden bijten elkaar niet (dief en diefjesvriend) De hond in de pot vinden (Komen als het eten op is) Van de stoker zijn hond gebeten zijn (graag sterke drank of bier drinken) Op iets staan kijken als een hond op een zieke koe(beteuterd staan kijken) Komt men over de hond, dan komt men ook over de staart (Als men iets heel moeilijks verwezenlijkt heeft, zal het andere ook wel lukken) En er zijn er nog wel hoor! Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene (Belgi?) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica And here a few expressions involving dogs in Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Hund [hU.nt] 'dog' (masc., plural _Hunnen_ [hU.n:]) - 'n falschen Hund ("a false dog") 'a dishonest person' - Em* schall de Hund wat! ("May the dog [do] something [to] him* ") 'Damn him!', 'I've had it with him!" * ~ ehr 'her', j?m 'them' - up (d)'n Hund kamen ("to come/get onto a/the dog") 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)' - v?r de Hunnen gahn ("to go before/in front of the dogs") 'to go to the dogs', 'to go to hell in a handbasket' (= 'to get bad/rundown') - Daar liggt de Hund begraven. ("That's where the dog lies buried.") 'That's the (fundamental) point/cause/problem.' Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 18:04:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 11:04:23 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.11 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, (1) Since I sent you the last administrative message a week ago, we have been able to welcome a few new members, and they joined us from the following places: Australia: Victoria: Harcourt [1] Melbourne [1] Brazil: S?o Paolo: Santos [1] ? [1] Finland: It?-Uusimaa: Kerava [1] Korea: Ky?nggi-do: Seoul [1] Philippines: Cavite: Rosario [1] United Kingdom: Scotland: Aberdeenshire: Aberdeen [1] United States of America: Arizona: Scottsdale [1] Illinois: Chicago [1] Mississippi: Hattiesburg [1] Tennessee: Kodak [1] ? [1] (2) It is very important that all of you are familiar with our rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). The following rules in particular tend to be ignored: Keep subjects separate: Do not submit a single posting in which more than one topic is discussed. ("Topic" equals "subject line".) This also applies when you respond to other people's postings. Edit quotes: When you reply to what someone else has written, don't just hit the reply button and write your reply before or after the quoted text. Edit out whatever is not essential, most definitely the Lowlands-L masthead and footer. (They are going to stay, for good reasons.) Also, don't do what some do: they follow this rule nicely until they run out of things to say, and then they let the rest of the quoted text dangle behind their "signature." Give credit: Don't forget to say who the writer of the text is to which you are responding. (When you hit the reply button your system most likely credits the administrator or "Lowlands-L," the sender, even if they did not write it.) Identify yourself: Anonymous postings are not permitted and will be ignored if anonymous submissions keep being sent despite a warning. Readers must be able to see who wrote a posting. Many people use automatic "signatures;" they are great, as long as they are not attached. (No attachments allowed!) Otherwise, your name must appear either with your email address or at the end of your contribution. It is all right to have your surname appear in one place and your given name in another place within the same posting. (3) As I already stressed in one of my replies to Susan Swanepoel (in Afrikaans), many members may have favorites among the language and culture varieties with which we deal here, but there are no favorites or lesser liked ones as far as Lowlands-L as a whole is concerned. All varieties are to be given equal opportunity and respect and are never to me greeted with expressions of scorn or disapproval. This list is not about specific languages and cultures as much as about their common base, and our mission is to cherish not only the similarities but also the differences between them. (4) I would like to remind you of "Lowlands Talk," our evolving companion series of introductions to the Lowlands language varieties: http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/ You can get to it via our homepage (http://www.lowlands-l.net) as well. Some of the writing and translation projects have not yet begun and others are underway but are not yet published. If you wish to help, and I hope you do, please write to me at sassisch at yahoo.com, and I will let you know with which of the projects we still need help. You are also most welcome to write introductions to more specific dialects or dialect groups, which would be listed under the languages to which they belong. These "sub-blurbs" do not need to follow any specific format and style, as long as they are brief. They do not need to be highly scientific in style and substance. Please bear in mind that this series is aimed at as wide a readership as possible. (5) Please send your posting submissions to the posting address (lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org). If you need to write to me regarding List business (such as subscription), please contact me at the administrative address (admin at lowlands-l.net). If you wish to write to me privately, please use my private address (sassisch at yahoo.com). With friendly regards, Reinhard "Ron" Hahn Lowlands-L ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 19:44:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 12:44:44 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.11 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: denis dujardin Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.11 (01) [A/D/E] Not to forget: " ie zoe meegoan m? ne hon' m? ne hoe' " (hij zou meegaan met een hond met een hoed) typische Kortrijkse (Zuid-West-Vlaanderen) uitspraak typical expression for Kortrijk (South-West-Flanders) d-apokope meaning: whenever he meets someone unknown, he feels invited to go with him. denis dujardin kortrijk Flanders ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica Here's another Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dog saying: bekannt as de bunte Hund ("(well-)known as/like the multicolored dog") 'to be know all over the place' Usually this has a negative or jocular connotation, such "known by every Tom, Dick and Harry (for something)" or "known for making a public spectacle of oneself." The general idea is that someone is known everywhere for something that is not exactly reputable or comfortable. It can also mean "to stick out;" e.g., _Dat bring ik beter mit mien Schrieversnaam ?nner de L??d'; anners warr ik bekannt as de bunte Hund._ 'I'd better publish it under my _nom de plume_, or else I'd get "known like the multicolored dog."' ("High") German has the equivalent _bekannt wie ein bunter Hund_ ("known like a multicolored dog"), with an indefinite article rather than a definite one. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 20:02:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 13:02:52 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.11 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Dear Lowlanders, Lately we have not heard a lot about or in Appalachian, but quite a few subscribers who joined us during the past few weeks have been expressing an interest in it in their subscription applications. In the past it was mostly our good Father Andreas (Richard Turner) who held up the Appalachian flag. Fortunately, he just rejoined us after a period of absence (during which I surely was not the only one who missed him). I encourage interested Lowlanders to start including Appalachian again, or any other rarely mentioned variety for that matter. If you are only in a receptive mode, please express your curiosity and interest by posting requests or questions to that effect. Also, we included Appalachian in its own right in "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/) and would be grateful to anyone or to any team of subscribers for writing an introductory piece. Please bear in mind that there is a good deal of interest in Appalachian, not only among our members but, judging by email messages I receive, in the general public as well, not only in North America but all over the world. Please remember that Lowlands-L is what its members make it, and that some things don't happen unless we make them happen. Friendly regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 11 23:00:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2002 16:00:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.11 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 11.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.11 (04) [E] Fellow Lowlanders/Appalachian Highlanders, Hi! Old ballads are a wonderful linguistic gold mine. In the late 1800s James Francis Child published a classic collection of traditional English and Scots ballads (narrative songs) now known as the Child Ballads. Collectors such as Cecil Sharpe published dozens of versions of these from England and Appalachia early in the twentieth centuries, and in the 1960s professor Bertrand Bronson of Berkeley published several volumes of those which had been collected together with their melodies. Jean Ritchie did a 2 album set of her family's Child Ballad versions from eastern Kentucky for Folkways Records - still available from the Smithsonian Institute on tape. The School of Scottish Studies has produced an album of them and a number of performers from the 60s folk revival such as the Corries, Jean Redpath and Ewan McColl in Scotland, Maddy Prior and Steeleye Span in England and Peggy Seeger, Hedy West, and Custer La Rue in America have recorded many wonderful Child Ballad versions. The old English Topic Label is a great source for them , and at least a few years ago actual field recordings or tapes of them were available from the Library of Congress collection. A huge collection of traditional folk songs sung by the ordinary folk of the British Isles is now available on cd for anyone who wants to hear real dialects this is the pace. The series is called "The Voice of the People" and is on the Topic label. There are dozens of artists who have recorded Child Ballad variants as part oft heir repertoire - but only a few have made it a major focus. (Early Joan Baez records, for example) Ballads often preserve old language and old folklore - for example old Appalachian expressions such as "down in yanders holler" or remote pronunciations such as "He stobbed her to the hort" even sometimes preserving Scottish words needed to sustain the rhyme such as "dee" for die in some versions of Mary Hamilton. One of my favourites comes from a version of Little Musgrove in North Carolina called "Mattie Groves" Get up from their you naked man Get up put on some clothes For I won't have it said in the North Scotland That a naked man I slow (for slew) or a phonetic reading of one verse of the popular bluegrass song "Rabbit In the Log" would come out: There's a rabbit in the log and I ain't got no dog How will I git him? I know I'll git me a braar (for briar) and twist in his haar (for hair) And thet way I'll git him I know. In the Ballad Sir Lionel (known in North America as Old Bangham) a witch and a magic boar figure along with pagan tree lore and sacrifice - including the fascinating line: "Old Bangham drew his wooden knife and twined that wild boar of its life" this after the wild boar heard his horn on "temple hill" and came with such a crash that he "broke down both oak and ash" some scholars have suggested the wooden knife - a strange choice - is really a Woden knife. Other amazing archaisms that show up include heretical elements from what appears to be an underground stream of folk Christianity - perhaps Gnostic? So, in one of Jean Ritchie's ballads the enquiry is made "Are you the Queen of Heaven she asked - or are you the Mary Magdalene come to pardon all our sins?" One interesting note on the language of ballads - as different dialects came into contact - sometimes different versions of the same word would coexist in the same text! - such as law and laigh for low in Scots. Poets always liked a good rhyme better than linguistic purity it seems. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 12 16:15:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:15:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.12 (01) [Ap/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Songs" > From: George M Gibault > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.11 (04) [E] > > One interesting note on the language of ballads - as different dialects > came into contact - sometimes different versions of the same word would > coexist in the same text! - such as law and laigh for low in Scots. Poets > always liked a good rhyme better than linguistic purity it seems. While I agree that Scots poets are too easily seduced into using inapproriate (usually English) words to get rhymes (you can read my not-too-serious essay "A Caa it Macaroni" on the subject at http://www.fleimin.demon.co.uk/Bletherskite/Bletherskite.htm ), I would use both "law" and "laich" in speech. At least in my dialect, "laich" tends to be used when something is unexpectedly low, such as a body of water in a dry season. Of course, "law" has an alternative meaning, that of a prominent hill, usually isolated, hill, a common feature of Lowland Scottish topography. Here's a typical Border tale of revenge. JAMIE TELFER IN THE FAIR DODHEID I IT fell aboot the Martinmas tyde, When our Border steeds get corn and hay, The Captain o Bewcastle bound him to ryde, And he's ower to Tividale to drive a prey. II The first ae guide that they met wi, It was hiegh up in Hardhauchswire; The second guide that they met wi, It was laich doun in Borthwick water. III 'What tidins, what tidins, my trusty guide?'- 'Nae tidins, nae tidins, I hae to thee; But gin ye'll gae to the fair Dodheid, Mony a cou's cauf I'll let thee see.' IV And when they cam to the fair Dodheid, Richt hastily they clam the peel; They lowsed the kye oot, ane and a', And ranshackled the hoose richt weel. V Nou Jamie Telfer's hert was sair, The tear aye rowin in his ee; He pled wi the Captain to hae his gear, Or else revenged he wad be. VI The Captain turned him round and leuch; Said- 'Man, there's naething in thy hoose, But ae auld sword without a sheath, That hardly nou wad fell a moose.' VII The sun wasna up, but the muin was doun, It was the grymin o a new-fa'n snaw, Jamie Telfer has run ten myles a-fit, Between the Dodheid and the Stobs's Ha'. VIII And when he cam to the fair touer-yate, He shouted loud, and cried weel hie, Till oot bespak auld Gibby Elliot- 'Whae's this that brings the fraye to me?'- IX 'It's I, Jamie Telfer in the fair Dodheid, And a harried man I think I be! There's naething left at the fair Dodheid, But a waefu wife and bairnies three.' X 'Gae seek your succour at Branksome Ha', For succour ye'se get nane frae me! Gae seek your succour where ye paid black-mail, For, man, ye ne'er paid money to me.'- XI Jamie has turned him round aboot, I wat the tear blinded his ee- 'I'll ne'er pay mail to Elliot again, And the fair Dodheid I'll never see. XII 'My hounds may a' rin masterless, My hawks may fly frae tree to tree, My lord may grip my vassal lands, For there again maun I never be!'- XIII He has turn'd him to the Tiviot-side, een as fast as he could drie, Till he cam to the Coultart Cleuch, And there he shouted baith loud and hie. XIV Then up bespak him auld Jock Grieve, 'Whae's this that brings the fraye to me?'- 'It's I, Jamie Telfer in the fair Dodheid, A harried man I trew I be. XV 'There's naething left in the fair Dodheid, But a greetin wife and bairnies three, And sax puir ca's stand in the sta', A' routin loud for their minnie.'- XVI 'Alack a wae!' qo auld Jock Grieve, 'Alack! my hert is sair for thee! For I was married on the elder sister, And you on the youngest o a' the three.' XVII Then he has taen oot a bonny black, Was richt weel fed wi corn and hay, And he's set Jamie Telfer on his back, To the Catslockhill to tak the fraye. XVIII And whan he cam to the Catslockhill, He shouted loud, and cried weel hie, Till oot and spak him William's Wat, 'O whae's this brings the fraye to me?'- XIX 'It's I, Jamie Telfer in the fair Dodheid, A harried man I think I be! The Captain o Bewcastle has driven my gear; For God's sake rise, and succour me!'- XX 'Alas for wae!' qo William's Wat, 'Alack, for thee my hert is sair! I never cam by the fair Dodheid, That ever I fand thy basket bare.' XXI He's set his twa sons on coal-black steeds, Himsell upon a freckled gray, And they are on wi Jamie Telfer, To Branksome Ha' to tak the fraye. XXII And when they cam to Branksome Ha', They shouted a' baith loud and hie, Till up and spak him auld Buccleuch, Said, 'Whae's this brings the fraye to me?'- XXIII 'It's I, Jamie Telfer in the fair Dodheid, And a harried man I think I be! There's nocht left in the fair Dodheid, But a greetin wife and bairnies three.'- XXIV 'Alack for wae!' qo the gude auld lord, 'And ever my hert is wae for thee! But fye gar cry on Willie, my son, And see that he come to me speedilie! XXV 'Gar warn the water, braid and wide, Gar warn it sune and hastilie! They that winna ride for Telfer's kye, Let them never leuk in the face o me! XXVI 'Warn Wat o Harden, and his sons, Wi them will Borthwick Water ride; Warn Gaudilands, and Allanhauch, And Gilmanscleuch, and Commonside. XXVII 'Ride by the gate at Priesthauchswire, And warn the Currors o the Lee; As ye cum doun the Hermitage Slack, Warn dochty Willie o Gorrinberry.' XXVIII The Scotts they rade, the Scotts they ran, Sae starkly and sae steadilie! And aye the ower-word o the thrang Was-'Rise for Branksome readilie!' XXIX The gear was driven the Frostylee up, Frae the Frostylee unto the plain, Whan Willie has leuk'd his men before, And saw the kye richt fast drivand. XXX 'Whae drives thir kye?' 'gan Willie say, 'To make an ootspeckle o me?'- 'It's I, the Captain o Bewcastle, Willie; I winna layne my name for thee.'- XXXI 'O will ye let Telfer's kye gae back? Or will ye do ocht for regard o me? Or, by the faith o my body,' qo Willie Scott, I'se ware my dame's cauf skin on thee!'- XXXII 'I winna let the kye gae back, Neither for thy love, nor yet thy fear; But I will drive Jamie Telfer's kye, In spite o every Scott that's here.'- XXXIII 'Set on them, lads!' qo Willie than; 'Fye, lads, set on them cruellie! For ere they win to the Ritterford, Mony a tuim saddle there sall be!' XXXIV Then till't they gaed wi hert and hand, The blows fell thick as bickerin hail; And mony a horse ran masterless, And mony a comely cheek was pale. XXXV But Willie was stricken ower the heid, And throu the knapscap the sword has gane; And Harden grat for very rage, Whan Willie on the grund lay slane. XXXVI But he's taen aff his gude steel cap, And thrice he's waved it in the air- The Dinlay snaw was ne'er mair white Nor the lyart locks o Harden's hair. XXXVII 'Revenge! revenge!' auld Wat 'gan cry; 'Fye, lads, lay on them cruellie! We'll ne'er see Tiviot-side again, Or Willie's daith revenged sall be.' XXXVIII O mony a horse ran masterless, The splinter'd lances flew on hie; But or they wan to the Kershope ford, The Scotts had gotten the victory. XXXIX John o Bricham there was slane, And John o Barlow, as I heard say; And thirty mae o the Captain's men Lay bleedin on the grund that day XL The Captain was run throu the thick o the thie, And broken was his richt leg-bane; If he had lived this hundred years, He had never been loed by woman again. XLI 'Hae back the kye!' the Captain said; 'Dear kye, I trew, to some they be! For gin I suld live a hundred years, There will ne'er fair lady smile on me.' XLII Then word is gane to the Captain's bride, Even in the bower where that she lay, That her lord was prisoner in enemy's land, Since into Tividale he had led the way. XLIII 'I wad lourd have had a windin-sheet, And helped to put it ower his heid, Ere he had been disgraced by the Border Scot, Whan he ower Liddel his men did lead!' XLIV There was a wild gallant amang us a', His name was Watty wi the Wudspurs, Cried - 'On for his hoose in Stanegirthside, If ony man will ride wi us!' XLV When they cam to the Stanegirthside, They dang wi trees, and burst the door; They lowsed oot a' the Captain's kye, And set them forth oor lads before. XLVI There was an auid wyfe ayont the fire, A wee bit o the Captain's kin- 'Whae dar lowse oot the Captain's kye Or answer to him and his men?'- XLVII 'It's I, Watty Wudspurs, lowse the kye, I winna layne my name frae thee! And I will lowse oot the Captain's kye, In scorn o a' his men and he.' XLVIII Whan they cam to the fair Dodheid, They were a wellcum sicht to see! For instead o his ain ten milk kye, Jamie Telfer has gotten thirty and three. XLIX And he has paid the rescue shot, Baith wi gowd and white monie; And at the burial o Willie Scott, I wat was mony a weepin ee. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.11 (05) [E] Hey, Mr Gibault an aw yuins. How be yuins up er out yander? We'er aw fine down hyir, thankee. Oh, we aw got the hay fever, but hit's seasonable. Hit is a-tarnin a mite airish of a night, now, so we won't be a-sneezin fer much longer. Hit'll kill 'at ol rag-weed off. A sung Ol Bang'em right smart, man an boy fer more years 'an a coon's got, an neer hyird tell o ought tae do wi no oak nor ash (nor thorn neither, gin ye was a-wonderin). Ol Bang'em will ye huntin ride? Dillum down dillum. Ol Bang'em will ye huntin ride? Dillum down. Ol Bang'em will ye huntin ride Wi a sword an a pistol ba yir side? Kubee kee! Killy Killy Cum, Kubee Quo Quam. (An folk says we ain't got no Latin!) They lived a wild boar in the wuid/ at'd break men's bones an drank ther blud. Ol Bang'em tuk his wooden knife/ an swore ba Gum at he'd take hit's life. Wal they fit aw day an they fit aw night/ till the staurs an the moon fled fum the sight. Ol Bang'em did ye win er lose?/ Wal, he swore ba Gum at he'd won his shoes. No sight o no temple hill, neither. Probly comes o poverty or the Babtists a-runnin 'em off. As fer Gnostics an sech, they warn't but one in Newport, Tennessee, some time back an he went Orthodox atter he hyird ma preachin one Pentecost five er six year agone. We got 'im fer a hierodeacon, now, an a more Orthodox feller ye neer seen. No lie. A am right happy tae be back, an aw. A'm proud yuins indulge or at least abide me. An come on, ye ridge-runners, an write yuins a piece! Yorn, Fr Andreas (Richard Turner) ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: "Songs" 2002.10.11 (05) [E] On Friday 11 October 2002 17:00, George M Gibault wrote: > A huge collection of traditional folk songs sung by the ordinary ?folk of > the British Isles is now available on cd for anyone who wants to hear real > dialects this is the pace. Somewhat apropos, the recent film, Songcatcher, is a fictionalized account of a woman's attempt to capture the traditional songs. Janet McTeer overplays a bit, but the some of the performances are well worth seeing. bob bowman ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 12 16:30:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2002 09:30:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.12 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 12.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro Subject: Appalachian and Scots (E) Dear Users, I've just signed in to this mailing list, which I hope I will never leave. Also, I have had the chance (with Lowlands-L) to know all these wonderful dialects from the Lowlands. I have become fond of the Appalachian and Scots dialects and I will start seeking texts, poems, songs and anything that might be of interest and finally, post links (if that is allowed*) so that, everyone, especially, the new ones* (just like me) could get into the ''spirit'' . I have been searching for songs in Scots and I've found a Rock/Punk band, which I believe comes from Scotland and seems to perform some of its songs in the Scots dialect. The band is: The Real McKenzies. The following song has been found: Scots Wha' ha'e. Since I'm brand new to these dialects, I would apologise if I did any mistake by mentioning that band/song as a Scots work. (In case it is not in Scots) I've found, also, this link that is all about Scots, sounds and texts. I would recommend, especially, to the new subscribers who have never had contact with such nice dialect. http://www.electricscotland.com/si/features/scots/index.htm I will soon come up with more links, including links related to the Appalachian dialect. Does anybody know other links? Anything that you might want to share is welcome! Have a nice weekend! Reynaldo Damy Castro ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Welcome, and thank you for your first posting, Reynaldo, also to you, Bob (Bowman)! Thank you also for joining the Lowlands Talk Team (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/), Reynaldo! I will be back in touch with you privately as soon as I'll get a chance. It is a delight to have an enthusiastic young person like you join LL-L and the project all the way from Brazil. Your posting reminded me that we ought to have a special online resource guide for Appalachian, also an offline resource guide. So any help with that would be most welcome. Of course, we ought to keep expanding the existing guides. I just added Colin Wilson's brand-new Scots textbook (the first ever, and with audio-CDs!) to the Scots offline resource guide, and my own copy is on its way from Scotland as we "speak." I can't wait to get it. Keep up your interests, and keep following your passion! Goodwill to all! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 16:29:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:29:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.12 (02) [E] Reynaldo Pimentel Damy Castro wrote: > I have been searching for songs in Scots and I've found a Rock/Punk band, > which I believe comes from Scotland and seems to perform some of its songs > in the Scots dialect. > > The band is: The Real McKenzies. The following song has been found: Scots > Wha' ha'e. The The Real McKenzies comes fae Canadae. Andy Eagle ---------- From: Florian Lohbrunner Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.12 (02) [E] >I have been searching for >songs in Scots and I've found >a Rock/Punk band, >which I believe comes from >Scotland and seems to perform >some of its songs >in the Scots dialect. > >The band is: The Real >McKenzies. The following song >has been found: Scots >Wha' ha'e. Hi! Actually these guys are Canadians with a strong scottish ancestry. They sing a lot of scottish traditionals although they don't speak Scots. I talked to them on several occasions in Germany and once in Glasgow. They speak Canadian English with more or less Scottish accent (even when being in Scotland). Anyway, a great young band spreading their kind of Scottishness ("Up yer kilts"-on their merchandise T-Shirts) all over the globe :-) Regards, Florian ---------- From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.12 (02) [E] Hello, Lowlanders. If I am putting a link where the cite's authors do not want it to be, then I am extremely sorry. If there are any questions about it, please contact me. Here is a wonderful cite about all varieties of Scots. http://www.scots-online.org. God bless! Ben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Ben, Lowlanders, The site http://www.scots-online.org belongs to no other than our own veteran members Andy Eagle. It is also listed in our online resource guide. Best regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 16:38:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:38:18 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.13 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] I have continued my inquiries regarding Pfeffernuesse. Several days ago I was with the Shirk family, Pennsylvania Dutch speaking Old Order or Team Mennonites. Mrs. Shirk did indeed have a copy of the cookbook that you mention and the book contained 2 recipes for Pfeffernuesse, but she again stated that she had never eaten them. She was intrigued enough however to consider baking them this year. Perhaps I will be responsible for having started a new Mennonite tradition in this area. As an aside, she pointed out an interesting recipe the book contains for preparing enough food for 175 men for a barn raising. Mrs. Shirk also pointed out that another member of her community that I know, Mark Nolt, came from Canada years ago speaking Plattdeutsch but married locally and now speaks Pennsylvania Dutch. Perhaps I will ask him when I next see him. Tom Byro ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 16:51:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 09:51:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (03) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (08) [E] Ron, where does this wonderful piece of Stralsundish come from? Mike Wintzer > > > As ik noch 'n l?tt'n Jung'n wer, t?rfte ich an j?idn Sommer norn Land gorn. > Mihn Gr?tting n?hm mi dormals opp. Dat wi? de Tiit as wi noch in ?ers'n > Kriich wiern. Dor geff dat noch Boller, dor wier ne Kouh, dor haat wii wat > to drinkn - all dat watt wi to Huus inne Stadt noch nich hebbm d?idn, dat > f?nn' wi bi uns Gro?murrer. Unn dor kr?ign wi dat denn okk. Dor schp??lten > wi okk rumm. Mihn Gro?murrer kunn ?wer haupt blo? Plattd?tsch. > 'Hochdeutsch' - dat k?nn se nie. Doovonn verschdoh se nix, datt harr se, as > se jung wer, schon ... nich anners mehr liert, unn dor bl?if se denn okk. > Unn die ganze Familie ?mm enn r?mm, die wi dor kennen lernen d?idn, dee wi? > noch ?al so ?hnlich. Dor k?m so por l?dde M?gns, de k?m'n dann 'rinn unn > schr?in dann: "Morr?ing, kann ikk f?tt di j?tz, j?tz morl ... 'n Schd?ck > Porr?ing kriegn?" Au' di Morrer d?i wi? dann da f??r unn s?i denn: "Jawohl, > ?lling g?ign, igg g?ff di gliik ein Boller Schmolltinken." Schmollt, door > wi? mi Morrer nich. Mi Murrer harr edd to h?pp mit Schmollt nix ssu dounn, > de wi?r v?rre Boller. Unn dee kr?ign wii dor denn okk. > ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Mike: > Ron, where does this wonderful piece of Stralsundish come from? I wrote >> (http://staff-www.uni-marburg.de/~naeser/probe05.htm): Note that the speaker switches between his own dialect -- e.g., (_diminutive _-ing_ in *_Groutfadder_ > *_Groutfarrer_ 'grandfather' > ) _Gr?tting_ 'grandpa', and _Gro?murrer_ [half-German] 'grandmother' -- and that of _por l?dde M?gns_ ('a few little girls'): (_Mudder_ 'mother' > _Mudding_ > _Murring_ >) _Morr?ing_ 'mom(my)', and analogical extension of _-ing_ in (_Pudding_ > _Purring_ >) _Porr?ing_ 'pudding'. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 17:07:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:07:57 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language policies" 2002.10.13 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.10 (08) [E] Ron wrote: > >The traditional pattern is a general one, certainly in Europe: > national label > ethnic label > language assignment -- the basic assumptions > being based on the ideal that nation, ethnicity and language should be one, > that diversity is an inconvenience rather than a blessing. > Ron, you couldn?t have described it better! We are an inconvenience that has to be dealt with. My question remains: Are we Lowlanders, "minorities" in general, carriers of diversity, going to leave it at that? Perhaps posing the following question could get things moving in reverse gear, make this "inconvenience" appear for what it really is - like you say - a blessing: Which is easier to shovel into a bag: Fine sand or a few big boulders? Is it easier to build Europe from a few big, ethnically homogeneous states or a multitude of ethnically diverse regions? Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 17:38:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:38:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.11 (03) [E] Thanks, Ron. I love those idiomatic expressions with animals. I love dialectology and idiomatic expressions! God bless! Ben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica Ben, I take the liberty to include in your thanks all the others that contributed to this thread from the angles of Scots and a number of varieties of Belgium and the Netherlands. I provided the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) expression: > - up (d)'n Hund kamen > ("to come/get onto a/the dog") > 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)' There is a dialectal variant that may preserve the original version: - up (d)'n Hund to rieden kamen ("to come to ride on a/the dog") 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)', 'to lose on'se shirt (= everything)" And another expression: - Hunnenmelk sagen hebben ("to have sucked/nursed dog's milk") 'to be a sly/untrustworthy person' There are also the following proverbs: - Daar is keen Hund so dumm, dat he nich bellen lehrt. ("There is no dog so stupid that he does not learn to bark.") 'Certain things are innate/instinctive/don't have to be learned.' - Is de Hund ?ver d'n Tuun, k?mmt de Steert ook noch r?ver. ("Once the dog is across the fence, the tail gets across it too.") 'Once the hard part is done, everything else will follow easily.' - Kaam ik ?ver d'n Hund, kaam ik ook ?ver d'n Steert. ("[Once] I've gotten across the dog, I'll get across the tail as well.") 'Once the hard part is done, everything else will follow easily.' Note also the following compounds containing _Hund_ 'dog' (> _Hunnen_): - Hunnendanss ("dogs' dance'") 'crazy affair/to-do/fuss/fight' > _Hunnendanns up Socken_ ("dog's dance on socks") 'absolutely crazy affair/to-do/fuss /fight' - Hunnenhandschen ("dog's gloves/mittens") 'fishy/shaky/suspicious business'; 'untrustworthy person' - Hunnenschiet ("dog shit") 'inferior stuff/merchandize', 'fishy/shaky/ suspicious business' Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 17:47:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 10:47:32 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.13 (06) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Norman Erwin Subject: help Translating a Letter Greetings All, I would be eternally grateful if one of you would translate this letter and send the translation back to me: my (Norman) email address is the_wiz_ne at yahoo.com . I believe it is written in a very unusual dialect of Low German; a number of the words have origin in the language of Yiddish. Thank you very much for your consideration. The Letter reads as follows: "Mien scheena Jung, Ekj kaun fal fonn diene weada goanijch festone. Ekj well die, oba ein dinkj saje. Du haudst bata miene Dochta met fal respakjt be'haundle, wan du weest waut goot fa die es. Wan du dit kaust festone, dan schriewe ekj die dat naakjsta mol en enjelsch. Danyelle aa Foda, Jeff" ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Help needed Oh-uh! That's a warning in "Plautdietsch" (Mennonite Lowlands Saxon/Low German). It contains no Yiddish words that I can find, though both languages often seem alike because of the Eastern influences. Here goes: === My dear boy, I can't understand some of your words at all. I want to tell you one thing, though: you had better treat my daughter with a lot of respect if you know what is good for you. If you can (omitted: not?) understand this, I will write to you in English next time. Danyelles's father, Heff === Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 21:17:44 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 14:17:44 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (07) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Idiomatica" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Idiomatica > > I provided the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) expression: > > > - up (d)'n Hund kamen > > ("to come/get onto a/the dog") > > 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)' A peculiar thing about dog proverbs in Scots is that they tend to refer to a particular dog. Here's some from Hislop's Proverbs of Scotland: "Nae equal tae ye but oor dug Sorkie, an he's deid, sae ye're marrowless." "Ye're buttoned up the back like Achmahoy's dug." "Ye're like the dug o Dodhaa, baith dooble an twa-faced." "Ye're like the dugs o Dunraggit-ye winna bark unless ye hae yer hinder end tae the waa." Hislop doesn't explain any of these names - can anyone enlighten us? My mother had a favourite saying about "Birkie's dug", but I can't remember it. Anybody? Some of my favourite general dog proverbs: "An auld dug bites siccar." ("An old dog bites securely.") "Fecht dug, fecht bear; wha wins, deil care." ("Dogs and bears may fight but no-one cares about the outcome") "He can lee like a dug lickin a dish." ("He can tell lies like a dog licking a dish.") "He fells twa dugs wi ae bane." "He fells twa dugs wi ae stane." ("Killing two birds with one stone" - or "bone", in the diplomatic version) "Him that sleeps wi dugs maun ryce wi flechs." ("He who sleeps with dogs must rise with fleas.") "If I haed a dug as daft, I wad shoot him." (I've often heard this one!) "I'm no every man's dug that whistles on me." ("I don't answer to everyone") "Like the smith's dug, sleep at the soond o the hammer, an wauk at the crunchin o teeth." ("Like the blacksmith's dog, sleep at the sound of the hammer, and awaken at the crunching of teeth.") Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 22:34:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:34:07 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.13 (06) [E/LS] I worked for a while for an importer of books from Germany, Mary Rosenberg, Inc. Many of the books were scholarly, such as philology books. One book I found was about a version of Yiddish that was spoken in north Germany that was based on Plattdeutsch. I have ofen wodered if any speakers of this language remain. Of course one of the differences between Yiddish and standard German is that Yiddish was written in the Hebrew alphabet. This means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for these sounds exists. Could this letter be from a speaker of Yiddish Plattdeutsch? If so, where did they survive? ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Tom, If you can point me in the direction of any concrete sources about a Jewish language variety based on a Lowlands language, please do so by all means, because I have been looking for such information a long time. I have searched through all kinds of materials and collections, have read all kinds of books about Jewish languages (including books in Yiddish and Hebrew), have asked on this list and on Mendele (a Yiddish-focused list), and I have never come across any evidence of a Continental-Lowlands-based Jewish language variety. The closest thing would be Yiddish spoken by descendants of immigrants from Eastern Europe in Belgium and the Netherlands, and their language varieties are based on Eastern Yiddish with Dutch admixture. I suspect that what you are referring to is what is known as "Western Yiddish," a group of varieties spoken primarily in Germany, the Low Countries and Eastern France -- but no longer. As far as is known, it is extinct. (If it is not, *please*, anyone, let me know.) Rumor has it that there are still some speakers in Western France, but no one has been able to confirm this. Also there are or were some Jewish-specific varieties in Northern Switzerland, but, judging by samples I saw, they are Swiss German dialects with Yiddish influences. Sizeable Jewish communities were established in the Northern Lowlands fairly late. The first ones were Sefardic (i.e., Iberian Jewish), founded by refugees from the horrors of the Inquisition on the Iberian Peninsula (today's Spain and, particularly in the case of the Lowlands, Portugal, thus mostly speakers of late medieval or early modern Portuguese and Galician). They were particularly in evidence along the Netherlands coast, including Amsterdam, and also in Hamburg (arriving there via Emden), specifically in Altona, which then was a separate city and later frequently served as a refuge for Hamburg Jews whenever the city senate harrassed them with visa and business permit restrictions and other types of chicanery. These Sefardic communities proved to have made important contributions to the welfare and development of the larger communities. Their Hispanic-based Ladino varieties became extinct, at the latest with World War II. Sizeable Ashkenazic (i.e., German Jewish) communities in the Northern Lowlands came about later, mostly in the 17th century. (I am talking about *communities*, not individuals or individual families that may have moved north earlier.) Most of these immigrated from what are now Southern and Central Germany. Their home and community language varieties were what is known as "Western Yiddish," like Eastern Yiddish primarily a branch off Medieval German (*not* Lowlands Saxon/Low German!), but without the Slavic, Romanian, Baltic and Hungarian influences that characterize Eastern Yiddish (which was based on Western Yiddish transported to Eastern Europe). By the time these Ashkenazic communities were established in the north, German had already begun to encroach upon and usurping the Lowlands-Saxon speaking land, having become the language of power and prestige. West-Yiddish- and (with the non-Jewish world) German-speaking newcomers thus had no incentive to use Lowlands Saxon, although, like the German-speaking non-Jewish elite, they had an incentive to learn to *understand* the language of the common people if they had any direct contacts with them, few of which at that time could speak German, leave alone write it. In a couple of _belles-lettres_ works, I have come across dialogues in which Gentiles would speak in Lowlands Saxon and Jews would speak German (with or without Yiddish influences). I assume that that was the typical situation, at least in the cities. I further assume that Jews living in rural areas outside sizeable Yiddish- and German-speaking communities tended to be able to speak Lowlands Saxon, especially those that intermingled and married with non-Jews. Much of this is apparently true of the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking parts of the Netherlands as well, where most resident Jews were descendants of German immigrants (including immigrants from the German-speaking parts of France). Furthermore, especially in the 17th and 18th centuries, Jewish families that could afford it would intermarry across what is now the border between Germany and the Netherlands. You will find fascinating descriptions of this in the memoirs of Gl?ckel von Hameln (Glikl Hameln), a Jewish woman born in Hamburg in the 17th century. It exists in English, German and other translations. (I would be grateful if anyone could help me get a copy of the original West Yiddish version.) If anyone has any lead to any resources that shed further light on possible Judeo-Lowlandic language varieties, I would be most grateful for informing me about it. Tom: > This > means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for these sounds exists. Only in Medieval Yiddish and in a few Early Modern Yiddish texts. On the whole, Yiddish (and Ladino) written with Hebrew script does represent and distinguish all vowels, and it does so in an ingenious way that bridges dialect boundaries, since it is mostly vowels and diphthongs that vary from dialect to dialect. Roman or any such script for Yiddish is thus an inferior solution, which is why a Roman- and Cyrillic-script orthography movements for Yiddish in the early 20th century were failures. > Could this letter be from a speaker of Yiddish Plattdeutsch? Absolutely not. As many of our native speakers members can attest, it is Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Low German), a.k.a. "Plautdietsch," the sole survivor of West Prussian Lowlands Saxon (of the area of the Vistula Delta in what is now Northern Poland), thus, like Eastern Yiddish, a Germanic language variety with Slavic and Baltic influences. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 22:39:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:39:52 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.13 (06) [E/LS] I worked for a while for an importer of books from Germany, Mary Rosenberg, Inc. Many of the books were scholarly, such as philology books. One book I found was about a version of Yiddish that was spoken in north Germany that was based on Plattdeutsch. I have ofen wodered if any speakers of this language remain. Of course one of the differences between Yiddish and standard German is that Yiddish was written in the Hebrew alphabet. This means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for these sounds exists. Could this letter be from a speaker of Yiddish Plattdeutsch? If so, where did they survive? ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Tom, If you can point me in the direction of any concrete sources about a Jewish language variety based on a Lowlands language, please do so by all means, because I have been looking for such information a long time. I have searched through all kinds of materials and collections, have read all kinds of books about Jewish languages (including books in Yiddish and Hebrew), have asked on this list and on Mendele (a Yiddish-focused list), and I have never come across any evidence of a Continental-Lowlands-based Jewish language variety. The closest thing would be Yiddish spoken by descendants of immigrants from Eastern Europe in Belgium and the Netherlands, and their language varieties are based on Eastern Yiddish with Dutch admixture. I suspect that what you are referring to is what is known as "Western Yiddish," a group of varieties spoken primarily in Germany, the Low Countries and Eastern France -- but no longer. As far as is known, it is extinct. (If it is not, *please*, anyone, let me know.) Rumor has it that there are still some speakers in Western France, but no one has been able to confirm this. Also there are or were some Jewish-specific varieties in Northern Switzerland, but, judging by samples I saw, they are Swiss German dialects with Yiddish influences. Sizeable Jewish communities were established in the Northern Lowlands fairly late. The first ones were Sefardic (i.e., Iberian Jewish), founded by refugees from the horrors of the Inquisition on the Iberian Peninsula (today's Spain and, particularly in the case of the Lowlands, Portugal, thus mostly speakers of late medieval or early modern Portuguese and Galician). They were particularly in evidence along the Netherlands coast, including Amsterdam, and also in Hamburg (arriving there via Emden), specifically in Altona, which then was a separate city and later frequently served as a refuge for Hamburg Jews whenever the city senate harrassed them with visa and business permit restrictions and other types of chicanery. These Sefardic communities proved to have made important contributions to the welfare and development of the larger communities. Their Hispanic-based Ladino varieties became extinct, at the latest with World War II. Sizeable Ashkenazic (i.e., German Jewish) communities in the Northern Lowlands came about later, mostly in the 17th century. (I am talking about *communities*, not individuals or individual families that may have moved north earlier.) Most of these immigrated from what are now Southern and Central Germany. Their home and community language varieties were what is known as "Western Yiddish," like Eastern Yiddish primarily a branch off Medieval German (*not* Lowlands Saxon/Low German!), but without the Slavic, Romanian, Baltic and Hungarian influences that characterize Eastern Yiddish (which was based on Western Yiddish transported to Eastern Europe). By the time these Ashkenazic communities were established in the north, German had already begun to encroach upon and usurping the Lowlands-Saxon speaking land, having become the language of power and prestige. West-Yiddish- and (with the non-Jewish world) German-speaking newcomers thus had no incentive to use Lowlands Saxon, although, like the German-speaking non-Jewish elite, they had an incentive to learn to *understand* the language of the common people if they had any direct contacts with them, few of which at that time could speak German, leave alone write it. In a couple of _belles-lettres_ works, I have come across dialogues in which Gentiles would speak in Lowlands Saxon and Jews would speak German (with or without Yiddish influences). I assume that that was the typical situation, at least in the cities. I further assume that Jews living in rural areas outside sizeable Yiddish- and German-speaking communities tended to be able to speak Lowlands Saxon, especially those that intermingled and married with non-Jews. Much of this is apparently true of the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking parts of the Netherlands as well, where most resident Jews were descendants of German immigrants (including immigrants from the German-speaking parts of France). Furthermore, especially in the 17th and 18th centuries, Jewish families that could afford it would intermarry across what is now the border between Germany and the Netherlands. You will find fascinating descriptions of this in the memoirs of Gl?ckel von Hameln (Glikl Hameln), a Jewish woman born in Hamburg in the 17th century. It exists in English, German and other translations. (I would be grateful if anyone could help me get a copy of the original West Yiddish version.) If anyone has any lead to any resources that shed further light on possible Judeo-Lowlandic language varieties, I would be most grateful for informing me about it. Tom: > This > means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for these sounds exists. Only in Medieval Yiddish and in a few Early Modern Yiddish texts. On the whole, Yiddish (and Ladino) written with Hebrew script does represent and distinguish all vowels, and it does so in an ingenious way that bridges dialect boundaries, since it is mostly vowels and diphthongs that vary from dialect to dialect. Roman or any such script for Yiddish is thus an inferior solution, which is why a Roman- and Cyrillic-script orthography movements for Yiddish in the early 20th century were failures. > Could this letter be from a speaker of Yiddish Plattdeutsch? Absolutely not. As many of our native speakers members can attest, it is Mennonite Lowlands Saxon (Low German), a.k.a. "Plautdietsch," the sole survivor of West Prussian Lowlands Saxon (of the area of the Vistula Delta in what is now Northern Poland), thus, like Eastern Yiddish, a Germanic language variety with Slavic and Baltic influences. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 13 22:48:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 15:48:01 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: Learning Plattdeutsch I left Rahden in 1955 and never went back to visit. Only lately have I been able to locate some of my family and friends again. I forgot Plattdeutsch in the intervening years. The pressure against using the language was enormous in my family. Then too, the language of instruction in school was in Hochdeutsch. I remember the misery of some of my friends who only spoke Plattdeutsch as we entered school because they could not understand the teacher. I had assumed that the language had died since I left. Recently though I found and wrote my childhood playmate, Erika (still living in Espelkamp) and asked her if she still speaks Plattdeutsch? She replied, "of course. It is such a beautiful language. I speak it every chance I get." I asked my old friend Heinz ( still living in Wehe, now a part of Rahden) the same question. He said that when he gets together with his friends, Plattdeutsch is the only language that they speak. I would like to go back home to visit over the next year or so but I am embarrassed that I appear to be the only member of my old circle who has become illiterate in Plattdeutsch. I live far from any place where the language is spoken. Can anyone recommend any books or other learning materials so that I can learn the language again? Preferably the dialect spoken in the Rahden area? Tom ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Reources Tom, I am afraid there is no textbook in English yet. I also doubt that you will find any textbook for the exact dialect your ancestors spoke. If you can read German, I recommend the book I recommended Gary Taylor a little while ago (16.AUG.2002 (01)): For your purposes I'd recommend the following: Marianne Kloock & Ingo Viechelmann, _Uns plattd??tsch Spraakbook : Texte to'n S?lvstlehren d?rch Lesen, Snacken un Schrieben mit Grammatik : op hooch- un nedderd??tsch | auf hoch- und niederdeutsch_, Hamburg: Helmut Buske Verlag, 1989, ISBN 3-87118-907-3. Revised edition 1996: 190 pp. ISBN 3-87548-134-8, hardbound, Euro 16.80; cassette 70 min. ISBN 3-87118-908-1. Euro 19.80 It's not fantastic (what is?) but (1) it's usable for people like you (who know what they want and what they are doing), (2) it takes the language seriously, (3) it is predominantly Hamburg dialect (bearing in mind that Hamburg has several dialects), (4) it is strictly side-by-side "Low/High" (yes, even the theoretical parts), and (5) it comes with an audio cassette (Kloock: Hamburg, Viechelmann: Aum?hle = marginally Hamburg/Holstein). Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 00:42:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 17:42:24 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kate Gladstone Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Thomas writes: > [because] Yiddish was written in the Hebrew alphabet. This > means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped because no Hebrew symbol for > these sounds exists. Yet Yiddish has other sounds for which no Hebrew letter exists - e.g., /zh/ - voiced version of /sh/ - Yiddish represents this with the Hebrew letter for /z/ followed by the Hebrew letter for /sh/ , so, if the umlaut-sounds had existed in Yiddish, Yiddish-speakers/-writers could & probably would have found a way to represent these as well. When languages remove/change sounds, they usually *don't* do this for the sake of making the language match the writing-system (otherwise, English would have dropped most of its vowels by now, because English has many more vowel-sounds than vowel-letters). In any case, don't other related languages exist (other varieties/close relatives of German) that also lack umlaut-sounds ... yet that use the Roman alphabet and have never used any other? If so, then tracing the lack of umlauts in one of these languages to Hebrew spelling (an explanation that cannot apply to the others) seems (to me) rather implausible and unconvincing. Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair kate at global2000.net http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] I will make some inquiries. Unfortunately I no longer live in New York City, where such inquiries would be much easier. The book I saw at Mary Rosenberg, Inc. showed a map, delineating three broad bands of Yiddish spoken in Germany. The topmost band coincided with the area where Plattdeutsch was spoken. I assumed that the Yiddish spoken there reflected the Plattdeutsch spoken in that area but I am ot absolutely sure, not having read the book. My first wife was an Orthodox Jew who came from a Yiddish speaking family that originated in Kishinev. There is little resemblance to Plattdeutsch from the little Yiddish that I picked up. However, I developed some contacts in some of the Orthodox communities such as the Lubavitch, that I might be able to exploit to research this question. Religion appears to be a powerful force to save languages from extinction. Yes, I read the Glueckl of Hamlen book in English. A fascinating book. New York is home to a number of publishers that print works of interest to Jewish culture and language, such as Schocken Books. I will look into these as well. Tom ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Kate: > Yet Yiddish has other sounds for which no Hebrew letter exists Welcome, Kate! Good point, and a topic worth noting: introduction of foreign-derived phonemes, and all that entails. Tom, thanks a lot for planning to check into the resource thing! Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 03:09:04 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:09:04 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (10) [E] OK. My assumption had been that the lack of umlauts was restrictions imposed on Yiddish by the Hebrew alphabet. I didn't realize that ways had been found around this difficulty. Now I am back to square one, wondering why Yiddish lacks the umlauts?. And how Yiddish gets around the difficulties posed by this lack? But I am straying far from the subject matter of this discussion forum. As an aside, does anyone want to know what the word OK means and how it came about? I noticed my cousin Horst using it while speaking German, and his native language is Plattdeutsch. Tom ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (10) [E] Folks, Of course Yiddish has "umlauts", it just doesn't realize them as "ue" (I'll avoid diacriticals in case it doesn't read right on all browsers) or "oe". The plural of "buch" in yiddish is "bicher". I don't know if yiddish didn't carry the typical German kind of "ue" and "oe" umlaut sounds, but it may also have been affected in Eastern Europe by the lack of those sounds in the contact languages viz. Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian (I don't know ANYTHING about Lithuanian)? No? Stan > From: Kate Gladstone > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) > [E] > > Thomas writes: > > > [because] Yiddish was written in the Hebrew > alphabet. This > > means that the umlaut sounds had to be dropped > because no Hebrew symbol > for > > these sounds exists. >...> In any case, don't other related languages exist > (other varieties/close > relatives > of German) that also lack umlaut-sounds ... yet that > use the Roman alphabet > and have never used any other? If so, then tracing > the lack of umlauts in > one of these languages to Hebrew spelling (an > explanation that cannot apply > to the others) seems (to me) rather implausible and > unconvincing. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Kate: > Yet Yiddish has other sounds for which no Hebrew letter exists I forgot to mention the "soft l" (a palatalized version, vs. a "thick" one, a contrast like in Russian and Gaelic) that some Eastern Yiddish dialects have acquired due to Slavonic (probably Russian) influence. Uriel Weinreich kindly distinguishes it by means of an apostrophe after the _lamed_. As Stan pointed out above, Yiddish does have umlauting like all (?) Germanic languages, but, as in English, the front rounded vowels have become unrounded: /?/ > /i/, /?/ > /e/. (I will add an example of the latter to Stans example above: _loch_ 'hole' > (*_l?cher_ >) _lecher_ 'holes' (with the _ch_ *always* "back" as in Dutch, never as in German _ich_ and _L?cher_). In most dialects (with the exception of "Litvak," i.e., Lithuanian East Yiddish) the /?/ > /i/ shift has become further obscured because /u/ has come to be pronounced as [i]; e.g., (_buch_ >) _bich_ 'book' > (*_b?cher_ >) _bicher_ 'books', but this does not affect the spelling. Old West Yiddish (at least) seems to have had /?/. Now, as an enthusiast of Jewish languages, especially of Yiddish (from which I have translated into Lowlands Saxon [Low Saxon]), I would love to go on about this, but wearing my hat as the moderator of Lowlands-L I have to say _genug shoyn mit yidish_ ("enough already with Yiddish"), since the language does not qualify as a Lowlandic one. Well, perhaps Tom will lead the way to a Lowlands-specific Jewish variety. However, frankly, I am pessimistic. Northern Germany and the Netherlands tend to be included in the area of (now extinct) West Yiddish, but West Yiddish was imported to that region from the south, primarily in the 17th century, and it therefore seems to be German-based rather than Saxon-based. Having said all this, I'd just love to be proven wrong in this instance. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 03:28:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2002 20:28:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 13.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (09) [E] I have an idea for you. Go to http://www.sassisch.net and read some poetry by Franz Brookmann. I am not familiar with the smaller towns in Germany, so I would not know if you are near Hamburg, but this Brookmann writes in Niedersassisch, and he translates to several languages including English, Afrikaans, Dutch and High German. As an amateur philologist, I love that cite, as I can see the relations and the differences among the varieties. God bless! Ben ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Ben, Thanks for the recommendation above, which I assume is directed at Tom. I wrestled with myself a bit over what to do, if anything. My pranksterish and modest selves surrendered to my ethical (?) self. I confess that Franz Brookmann is no other than I. It is my pen name under which I have published Lowlands Saxon (Low German) poetry. It is the name of my maternal (West-Pomeranian-Saxon-speaking) grandfather and his son. Their Lowlands Saxon surname ended with their tragic ends quite a few years before I was born. I confess that the site needs some work, and the poetry displayed there is of my "early phase." And bless you to! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 19:23:51 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:23:51 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kate Gladstone Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (11) [E] Tom - I do, indeed, want to know: > what the word OK means and how it came about ... Re your inquiry about: > why Yiddish lacks the umlauts?. And how Yiddish gets around the > difficulties posed by this lack? I speak (some) Yiddish, I know several fluent speakers, and to none of us has it ever occurred that an umlaut-less language suffers "difficulties." (This reminds me of the time that a native speaker of Spanish asked me how we English-speakers could possibly understand each other, what with "a" often sounding like /e:/, "e" often sounding like /i:/, and "i" often sounding like /a:i/ .) > Folks, > Of course Yiddish has "umlauts", it just doesn't > realize them as "ue" (I'll avoid diacriticals in case > it doesn't read right on all browsers) or "oe". The > plural of "buch" in yiddish is "bicher". In fact, Yiddish carries this form of umlauting further than Standard German does ... the word "tog" (= 'day') forms its plural as 'teg', and the word "hunt" (= 'dog') forms its plural as "hint": somewhat as if a variety of German existed somewhere which formed these words as "Tag/T?g - Hund/H?nd". (Does such a variety of German exist?) Conversely, some Yiddish words lack umlauting where Standard German would have it: e.g., where Standard German has "schlafen/er schl?ft", Yiddish (at least in the central Polish variety I heard sometimes as a child) has what Standard German orthography would transcribe as "schlufen/er schluft". > I don't know if yiddish didn't carry the typical > German kind of "ue" and "oe" umlaut sounds, Yiddish, indeed, does not have these sounds: if we used Standard German orthography to spell the sounds of the Yiddish equivalent of "ich h?re" ('I hear'), the Yiddish version would look like "ich here" ... (by the way, in reading the above example please also note that Yiddish (unlike Standard German) pronounces the final consonant of "ich" with the consonant-sound that in Standard German does not occur in "ich" but does occur in "ach". (This probably has less to do with the fact that Hebrew - or German - spelling treats these sounds as identical than it has to do with the fact that Yiddish split off from Standard German before the "ich"-sound became established as an allophone of the "ach"-sound. > I forgot to mention the "soft l" (a palatalized version, vs. a "thick" one, > a contrast like in Russian and Gaelic) that some Eastern Yiddish dialects > have acquired due to Slavonic (probably Russian) influence. Uriel Weinreich > kindly distinguishes it by means of an apostrophe after the _lamed_. There also exists a "soft n", generally transcribed as "ny" and spelled in Yiddish with the equivalent Hebrew letters - e.g., in the (probably originally-Slavic) Yiddish word "paskudnyak," meaning "scoundrel". Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair kate at global2000.net http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Although Yiddish has no official place at Lowlands-L, what Kate and I have been mentioning here (i.e., palatalized /l/ and /n/ in this case) is a good example of foreign phoneme adoption. As I see it, when contact with another language is casual (and few speakers learn it), foreign sounds tend to be converted to native phonemes or phoneme sequences (e.g., French _restaurant_ > English "r?steront", written ), but when knowledge of the foreign language becomes common (as in the case of Russian proficiency among Yiddish speakers in much of what used to the Soviet Union), or foreign pronunciation becomes fashionable/prestigeous, then, if this prevails for long enough and there are many such loan words, the foreign phoneme may become internalized, i.e., added to the native phoneme inventory. How about thinking about such examples in the Lowlands languages? Regards, Reinhard/Ron P.S.: Folks, please keep subject lines apart. The subject of "O.K." should be posted separately under "Etymology." Sorry to sound so bureaucratic. ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Kate writes: < In any case, don't other related languages exist (other varieties/close > < relatives> < of German) that also lack umlaut-sounds... yet that use the Roman alphabet > < and have never used any other? If so, then tracing the lack of umlauts in > < one of these languages to Hebrew spelling (an explanation that cannot apply > < to the others) seems (to me) rather implausible and unconvincing. > Dear Kate, Just a minor clarifications. If my interpretation of your terminology is correct you refer to the umlaut-sounds as the /?/ and /?:/ in and , and the /?/ and /?:/ in and . I would call them "front rounded vowels", as /o/,/e/ and /i/ are also sound that partially arose by way of umlaut. In German they are mostly the result of various umlaut-processes during the Middle ages. They are not, however the sole source of and . I?m sure Ron can supply you with examples of and in German from processes of later rounding etc. (I can`t think of one now). Umlaut is the process by which a root-vowel with primary stress has been influenced by the quality of the vowel in the following unstressed syllable. In both High and Low German these processes were so common, that they were grammaticalised once the unstressed following vowel had lost its quality and had become "schwa", the neutral central vowel. Thereafter the i-Umlaut became a grammatical marker, i.e for plurals or subjunctives. Ther are other umlaut processes but the i-umlaut, the a-umlaut for example, which changed a /u/ in the stressed syllable to /o/ in case /a/ was found in the following syllable. Tjis is how the short /O/ phoneme came to exist in the Germanic languages. I will exemplify both umlauts with an example: I will use the reconstructed Germanic word *gultha-z = "gold" a-umlaut: early change from *gultha-z > *goltha- in West Germanic giving: in Ger., Eng., etc. the same root had also an adjectice ending in -?n- i-umlaut: Old High Germ. > H./L. Germ. , Old Engl. > Engl. (This is a rough generalisation, the umlaut processes can be quite complex, with primary and seconady umlaut, changes throughout the different evolutionary stages of the languages etc., but they would go too far here). < In any case, don't other related languages exist (other varieties/close > < relatives> < of German) that also lack umlaut-sounds> Oll surviving Germanic languages had umlauts originally. It is one of the characteristic features of the modern Germanic languages (the exception being the extinct Eastern Germanic dialects like Gothic). Many umlaut processes have been neutralised in the Frankish, (to some extent the East Frisian) and English/Scots dialects, especially concerning i-umlaut. German (both High and Low) generalised i-umlaut as one of its many plural markers, and is an important part of its morpho-phonology. The front rounded vowels /?/ and /?/ that you are referring to, have been derounded in many Germanic dialects, including English/Scots, North Frisian. In fact very many German dialects have derounded front vowels: Most of the central, eastern and upper German dialects (though not in High and Highest Allemannic). Most of central and eastern Austria has developed "new" front rounded vowels from the vocalising of following /l/, i.e. Viennese /g?:t/ HGerm. "Geld" = money. North Frsian and Scots also have "new" front rounded vowels, which did not arise through umlaut. Oh my god! I`ve been blabbering! Yours Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 19:27:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:27:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.14 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Eldo Neufeld Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2002.10.13 (02) [E] >From: Thomas Byro >Subject: LL-L "Festivals" 2002.10.02 (11) [E] > >I have continued my inquiries regarding Pfeffernuesse. Several days ago I >was with the Shirk family, Pennsylvania Dutch speaking Old Order or Team >Mennonites. Mrs. Shirk did indeed have a copy of the cookbook that you >mention and the book contained 2 recipes for Pfeffernuesse, but she again >stated that she had never eaten them. She was intrigued enough however to >consider baking them this year. Perhaps I will be responsible for having >started a new Mennonite tradition in this area. As an aside, she pointed >out an interesting recipe the book contains for preparing enough food for >175 men for a barn raising. > >Mrs. Shirk also pointed out that another member of her community that I >know, Mark Nolt, came from Canada years ago speaking Plattdeutsch but >married locally and now speaks Pennsylvania Dutch. Perhaps I will ask him >when I next see him. > >Tom Byro Thomas, I'm not sure about this, but my impression certainly is that the Pfeffern?sse tradtion is not as strong among the Pennsylvania Old Order Amish as among other kinds of Mennonites. I have known many Amish people, in Pennsylvania, Ohio, Iowa, and Kansas, and although the subject never came up, the folkways are somewhat different. One thing no one has previously mentioned on the P?pan?t subject is something my wife does. When she mixes a batch of dough, she rolls parts of it into longish rolls (ca. 20 cm long, 2 cm in diameter), freezes them, then takes them out, chops the individual "N?t" into 2 cm long pieces to be baked. They normally last all winter. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 19:31:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:31:38 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language contacts" 2002.10.14 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Ron wrote: > In a couple of _belles-lettres_ > works, I have come across dialogues in which Gentiles would speak in > Lowlands Saxon and Jews would speak German (with or without Yiddish > influences). I assume that that was the typical situation, at least in the > cities. (...) > Much of this is apparently true of the Lowlands-Saxon-speaking parts of the > Netherlands as well, where most resident Jews were descendants of German > immigrants (including immigrants from the German-speaking parts of France). My own grandmother, who now lives in Hilversum (North Holland), was born from a jewish father and a christian mother in the city of Groningen. Both her father and mother spoke the Low Saxon dialect of the city of Groningen as their 1st langua- ge, although her father could also speak (eastern?) Yiddish, as well as Frisian (he was a tradesman who did business with shops and craftsmen throughout the north of the Netherlands and Germany). My great grandfather ('Arie' Rose) could however NOT speak (High) German, or at least most certainly not fluently. My grandmother speaks Yiddish too, but I am under the impession that she is not fluent in the language and uses it mostly to confuse their grandchildren ;-) Something else: I am not too familiar with the Jewish languages of Europe, but the older people of the small Jewish community of Middelburg (capital of Zeeland) say that the Yiddish that they are familiar with (allthough they do not speak it themselves anymore; I think that is due to the small size of their community), is different from the Yiddish that they hear in the Jewish quarters of Ant- werp. Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 14 19:47:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 12:47:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.14 (04) [E/LS/V] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.13 (06) [E/LS] > From: Norman Erwin > Subject: help Translating a Letter > > Greetings All, > > I would be eternally grateful if one of you would translate this > letter and > send the translation back to me: my (Norman) email address is > the_wiz_ne at yahoo.com . I believe it is written in a very unusual > dialect > of Low German; a number of the words have origin in the language of > Yiddish. > Thank you very much for your consideration. The Letter reads as > follows: > > "Mien scheena Jung, > > Ekj kaun fal fonn diene weada goanijch festone. Ekj well die, oba ein > dinkj > saje. Du haudst bata miene Dochta met fal respakjt be'haundle, wan du > weest > waut goot fa die es. Wan du dit kaust festone, dan schriewe ekj die dat > naakjsta mol en enjelsch. > > Danyelle aa Foda, > > Jeff" Hello, In West-Flemish it could sound a bit like this: Min scho?ne jong', Ik kan vele van die woord'n he?legans nie verstaon. Ik wille joe daorovre e?n dink zegn'. Je gaot betre min dohtre me' veel respekt behand'ln want je weet wa goed vo?r joen is . Wan e?r je da (en?) koste verstaone, dan schreve kik joe da 't naoste ke? in 't Ingels. Danyelle heur vaodre ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties In Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German): Mien (sch?ne =) leve Jung, Ik kann veel (~ 'n Barg) vun Dien W??r(d') gaarnich verstahn. Ik will Di man (~ avers) een Ding (~ Dink ~ Saak) seggen. Du hest (~ hettst) mien Dochter beter mit veel Respekt to behanneln, wenn Du weetst, wat good f?r Di is. Wenn Du d?t (~ dit) [nich ?] verstahn kannst, denn schriev' ik Di dat neegste (~ tokamene ~ annere) Maal up Ingelsch. Danyelle ehr Vadder Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 00:59:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 17:59:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ruud Harmsen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (01) [E] 12:23 14-10-2002 -0700, Lowlands-L: >> I don't know if yiddish didn't carry the typical >> German kind of "ue" and "oe" umlaut sounds, > >Yiddish, indeed, does not have these sounds: Neither do many dialects in southern Germany and Austria. >(by the way, in reading the above example please also note that Yiddish >(unlike >Standard German) pronounces the final consonant of "ich" with the >consonant-sound >that in Standard German does not occur in "ich" but does occur in "ach". As does Swiss German. Coincidence? I think not. -- Ruud Harmsen ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (01) [E] Corrections of blabber-letter: read for (I?m afraid I?ve been wriing too much Cornish recently!!!) Derounding has occured in Highest Allemannic!!! Dan ---------- From: Dan Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (11) [E] Kate wrote: < somewhat as if a variety of German existed somewhere which formed > < these words as "Tag/T?g - Hund/H?nd". (Does such a variety of German < > > > exist?)> /E:/ = long open e /E/ = shor open e /?/ = schwa /?/ = a-schwa from <-er> /O:/ = long open o /U/ = short lax u /S/ = sh /A:/ = long slightly velarised and raised a Dear Kate, Swabian has: /ta:k/ - /tE:k/ Tag - Tage = day - days /fli?g?/ /E:r fluigt/ = fiegen, er fliegt = to fly, he flies Central Bavarian: /jO:r/ - /ja:r/ Jahr - Jahre = year - years /Swoav/ - /Sweaf/ Schweif - Schweife = tail - tails again /dO:x/ - /daX/ Tag - Tage = day - days North Bavarian: /SdUk/ - /Sdik?/ St?ck - St?cke = piece - pieces Upper Franconian: /bra:d/ - /brEd?/ - /bredzd/ breit - breiter - breitest = broad - broader -broadest Alsatian: /A:rm/ - /a:rm/ Arm - Arme = arm - arms again /tA:j/ - /ta:j/ Tag - Tage = day - days Swiss: /pru?f/ - /pry?f/ Pr?fung - Pr?fungen = exam, -s Letzeburgsch / Luxemb.: - Monat - Monate = month, -s Palatinate/Pfalz: /ar?m?/ - /E:r?m/ arm - arms Hessian: again /dA:x/ - /dE:S/ Tag - Tage = day, -s /So:f/ - /Se:f/ Schaf - Schafe = sheep Back to the Lowlands: Westphalian: Druoppen - Dr??ppen; Tropfen - Tropfen = drop, -s Yours, Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 01:04:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2002 18:04:14 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 14.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Dear Lowlanders, Can any of you help me with the etymology of Polish _folwark_ and Yiddish _folvark_ (with a palatal /l/) '(country) estate', 'ranch'? It sounds rather Middle Lowlands Saxon (Low German). (*_volwark_ "full work"?) Thanks in advance! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:23:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:23:05 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.15 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: Songs Hi again! Muckle thanks to Sandy for Jamie Telfer O'The Fair Dodhead. I LOVE border ballads. (One of my great grandmothers was a Kerr). If you would like to hear some it is quite hard to find more than one of them on any particular recording, BUT Fellside Recordings recently released a CD of them which I found on the Border Heritage website. It is called "Fyre & Sworde" and is quite wonderful. The notes include a map of the borders with many of the old border families' domains shown. There are several fine performers, but Graham Pert's versions of The Death of Parcy Reed and The Battle of Otterbourne are not to be missed! Rounder Records has also produced a wonderful 2 CD set of Child Ballads under the title Classic Ballads of Britain and Ireland, Volumes I and II. A lot of pure southwestern English and North Eastern Scots dialects are featured. Those curious about Yorkshire dialect are advised to track down the recordings of the Watersons. Thanks to Richard Turner too for his version of Old Bangham. I didn't mean to suggest that there were actual gnostics wandering around the Appalachians - only that their ancient beliefs left traces in the centuries old ballads which had survived there. On the other hand, witch lore is a major fact of Appalachian folklore - and I have always believed that linguistic evidence might cast a lot of light on the historians' debate over the reality or not of actual conscious witchcraft practice in medieval Europe and colonial America. Nor is witch lore restricted to Appalachia/Ozarks and Salem - So-called "hex signs" (actually anti-hex signs) are still sold tourists in the "Pennsylvania Dutch" country based on traditional wheel designs painted on some barns.) The older the ballad version - the longer - the bloodier - and the more supernatural/unorthodox elements are preserved. I agree with Richard that as I think he intimates, the chorus lines to Banghum strongly suggest a half remembered Latin incantation. Putting together different variants one is struck by the number of different supernatural elements spread across these versions. A Scottish version from Banffshire has a giant as well as a killer boar, and names the place as Tore (Thor?) wood. Sam Harmon of Maryville Tennessee sings blow your horn center (scenter? centaur?) and refers to the hero as a "jovial hunter" (Jove?) After killing the boar and finding the bones of five hundred men in its lair: He meets the old witch wife on the bridge Begone you rogue you've killed my pig There is three things I crave of thee Your hawk and hound your gay lady These three things you'll not have of me My hawk my hound my gay lady He split the old witch wife to the chin And on his way he went ag'in Evelyn Purcell, of Farmville, Albemarle County Virginia sang: Old Bangham blew both loud and shrill The wild boar heard on Temple hill Cubby ki, cuddle down Killy quo quam (remember "hocus pocus" derives from "Hoc ist corpus" in the Latin mass) The wild boar came with such a rush That he broke down hickory oak and ash etc. A similar version can be heard on "Five Miles Out of Town" Volume II Rounder 787 sung by Dee Hicks of Fentress County Tennessee. Ray Hicks from Watauga County North Carolina also did an album of Jack Tales for Folkways records - a classic of old Appalachian speech. One of these can be seen and heard on video - "Tall Tales of the Blue Ridge" from Eastern National Park and Monument Asociation 210 Riceville Road Asheville North Carolina 28805. Enjoy! George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:27:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:27:24 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] I am not a linguist, and I do not speak any Slavic languages, but that word sounds like bulwark. ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] Hi! Ron, I suspect falwark could be Prussian platt for pig-snare - cf. Afrikaans valvark but for the Yiddish connection. As to OK - like my "pooch" query - nobody knows for sure - although several theories exist, all involving American initials or shorthand: 1. Andrew Jackson's semi literate shorthand for "oll korrect" 2. "Old Kinderhook" knickname for President Martin Van Buren 3. Initials of an Ellis Island immigration agent or similar bureaucrat 4. secret society written equivalent of secret handshake such as Omega Kappa Old Kingdom or Original Konfederate. Common modern expressions "On the level" "On the square" and "hoodwink" all come from Masonic ritual. The similarity of OK to Scots emphatic positive Ach aye! has always intrigued me. Kilwinning Lodge in southwest Scotland has recently been shown to be the likely origin of Free Masonry in the British Isles. By the way, most Appalachians, while southerners, were not Confederates - they were Mountain Yankees. As one East Tennessee song "Lincoln Was A Union Man" put it: "Ah'd raither be a Lincoln man and kerrie a wooden gun Than to be a Rebel and always have to run." and from the Frank Proffit of Watauga County North Carolina version of the song "Going Across the Mountains" "Goin' across the mountains if I have to crawl Give old Jeff's men some of my rifle ball" (Jeff Davis - President of the Confederate States of America) Best wishes George ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] Hi, If that word were Dutch I'd think of to "fold" and not of "full", after all a fauteuil is nothing else than the fold stool used for the king when he's on campaign.... (The rest had to stand). And there is the word "voller", having something to do with textile industry.... Wark is often an earthwork, a "defensive work" in Dutch, earth walls or dikes, around a city or borough. Not necessary connected working so... As usually I don't have a clue, but I hope I bring somebody else to an idea... Moi! Wim [Verdoold] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:29:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:29:24 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.15 (03) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.06 (06) [E] Sandy wrote: >John, you see everything in black! Canna deny it. My uisual reply ti the question o whither the gless is hauf fou or hauf tuim is at I canna see naething in it ava! >Seven years ago, I wouldn't have known any better than to >use these books uncritically, either - but now I do know >better. Teachers favourably disposed towards Scots are also >likely to use Lorimer and Colin's book, and perhaps trawl >through ScotsteXt in search of further texts. Ultimately >it's a question of making enough good text and instruction >available for people to realise what's wrong with some of >them (such as Robertson's). Again, it comes back to the >question of a critical mass being available, and I think >we're making progress there. > >No doubt these problems you keep going over are interesting >discussion points, but you can't _solve_ problems without >some sort of optimism to the effect that solutions can be >found. Aye, this is true eneuch, an makkin up mair an mair guid graith is gaun the richt wey. But I feel at, at some stage or anither, the wey at the Scots langage 'scene' is dominatit bi thaim at caa's aathing an oniething 'Scots', an writes juist English wi Scots bitties here an thare, maun be teckled heid-on. Ithergates, the guid graith will juist be seen as anither contribution alang wi aa the ither troke, ane as guid as the ither. In the wider minority-langage warld, I see fowk recognisin at some kynd o standardisation (tho that's aye no a verra guid word, cause it can hae the wrang connotations) is necessar in the upbiggin o a leid. I see at the representatives o Sardinian an Romansch in European minority langage circles (canna mynd aither o thair names) recognises this. Sae in thae kintras, the 'aathing an oniething' approach canna hae siccan a haud as it dis ower here. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:32:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:32:12 -0700 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.15 (04) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (07) [E/S] Hi! Sandy asks about some dogs including the dug o Dod's Haa. This is a border hold and implies that the owners were double dealing in border affairs. Some Grahams and some Halls had this reputation - "The three fause Ha's O' Girsenfield they'll never be trusted nor trowed again" (from the Death of Parcy Reed) while the Grahams of the Bateable (Debatable) lands once wrote to the King in Edinborough threatening to turn English if they didn't get better treatment. The Douglases once conspired with the MacDonalds of the Isles to split Scotland between them (but the MacDonalds were defeated at Harlaw - The Kerrs of Cessford and the Kerrs of Ferniehurst feuded with one another - and an old border ballad bewails the Kings betrayal of the border outlaw Johnnie Armstrong. The Dods were mainly English but had a Scottish branch in Roxboroughshire. gang ye weel George >From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] >Subject: "Idiomatica" > > > From: R. F. Hahn > > Subject: Idiomatica > > > > I provided the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) expression: > > > > > - up (d)'n Hund kamen > > > ("to come/get onto a/the dog") > > > 'to go bankrupt (due to mismanagement)' > >A peculiar thing about dog proverbs in Scots is that they >tend to refer to a particular dog. Here's some from Hislop's >Proverbs of Scotland: > >"Nae equal tae ye but oor dug Sorkie, an he's deid, sae ye're marrowless." > >"Ye're buttoned up the back like Achmahoy's dug." > >"Ye're like the dug o Dodhaa, baith dooble an twa-faced." > >"Ye're like the dugs o Dunraggit-ye winna bark unless ye hae yer hinder end >tae the waa." > >Hislop doesn't explain any of these names - can anyone enlighten us? > >My mother had a favourite saying about "Birkie's dug", but I can't remember >it. Anybody? > >Some of my favourite general dog proverbs: > >"An auld dug bites siccar." >("An old dog bites securely.") > >"Fecht dug, fecht bear; wha wins, deil care." >("Dogs and bears may fight but no-one cares about the outcome") > >"He can lee like a dug lickin a dish." >("He can tell lies like a dog licking a dish.") > >"He fells twa dugs wi ae bane." >"He fells twa dugs wi ae stane." >("Killing two birds with one stone" - or "bone", in the diplomatic version) > >"Him that sleeps wi dugs maun ryce wi flechs." >("He who sleeps with dogs must rise with fleas.") > >"If I haed a dug as daft, I wad shoot him." >(I've often heard this one!) > >"I'm no every man's dug that whistles on me." >("I don't answer to everyone") > >"Like the smith's dug, sleep at the soond o the hammer, an >wauk at the crunchin o teeth." >("Like the blacksmith's dog, sleep at the sound of the hammer, >and awaken at the crunching of teeth.") > >Sandy >http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 15:47:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 08:47:12 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.15 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (12) [E] Mr. Reinhart, it is an honor to hear from you. The poem about the Jewish mother moved me greatly. That was the poem "In the Still." Thanks. Ben ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 16:07:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:07:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.15 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (11) [E] Just look at Dutch. Yes, it still has the Germanic sounds to which they have attached the dieresis, but Dutch does not use the dieresis. It uses EU and UU. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 16:37:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 09:37:07 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (02) [E] At 08:27 AM 10/15/02 -0700, George M Gibault wrote: 1. Andrew Jackson's semi literate shorthand for "oll korrect" 2. "Old Kinderhook" knickname for President Martin Van Buren 3. Initials of an Ellis Island immigration agent or similar bureaucrat 4. secret society written equivalent of secret handshake such as Omega Kappa Old Kingdom or Original Konfederate. Actually, there's a much more complete list in L-L submission of 06.FEB.1999 (06). I personally favor the Choctaw Indian origin of the word, since all the others seem so contrived. Perhaps Ron would like to resend this excellent summary of a subject that has come up more than once over the years. "Ah'd raither be a Lincoln man and kerrie a wooden gun Than to be a Rebel and always have to run." As were about half my ancestors who left Virginia before the start of the war and went to Lincoln's home state of Illinois. And don't forget that West Virginia (the most mountainous part of the state) actually seceded from Virginia during the war! I also recall that there was a whole county in Tennessee that refused to send soldiers and Confederate conscription men feared to enter. I think the state motto of West Virginia is "Mountain Men Are Free Men". Sounds to me like a real Scots sort of thing to say. Ed Alexander JAG REALTY INC. 80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1 Pager: 905-312-5204 Fax: 905-525-6671 www.jagrealty.com ED'S FUNDRAISER PAGE: http://www.deerhurst.com/fundraiser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 22:33:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:33:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (08) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (07) [E] Hi! Ed Alexander mentions the state motto of West Virginia - it is "Montani Semper Liberi" Mountaineers always freemen. Parts of western North Carolina formed the "Free State of Franklin" but it didn't survive the war. Similar secession from secession movements were the Free State if Jones in Mississippi and Winston in the hills of northern Alabama. German immigrants to the United States were strongly recruited by Lincoln with promises of homesteads after the war - and this largely explains why so many German speakers settled the upper midwest and west from Wisconsin to Montana.. The politics of the south broke down along union/confederate lines for the next hundred years - so you could actually find the concentrations of German speakers on a map of Texas simply by finding counties that registered significant votes for Republican presidential candidates before 1950. The German dialect of such union volunteers was even parodied (badly) in the popular songs "Corporal Schnapps" and "Fighting Mit Siegal" Cheers George ---------- From: elsie zinsser Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (02) [E] Haai almal, George Gibault wrote: "Ron, I suspect falwark could be Prussian platt for pig-snare - cf. Afrikaans valvark but for the Yiddish connection." I don't know the word 'valvark' in Afrikaans. It does not relate to either a farm operation (which I assume is the meaning of falwark) or a pig snare. That is 'valstrik' in Afrikaans. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology Beste li?glanners, The Polish word "folwark" and its Yiddish counterpart "folvark" have been derived from the German(ic) word : "das Vorwerk" meaning (and here I quote Adelungs dictionary) : "...das Vorw?rk, des __es, plur. die __e, ein von einem Landgute abgesondertes und vornehmlich zur Ziebzucht bestimmtes St?ck, welches als ein eigenes Werk, oder eine eigene Anstalt betrachtet wird. Ein Meierhof. Ein Vorwerk bestehet gemeiniglich aus einigen von einem Hauptgute abgesonderten und mit den dazu n?thigen wirthschaftlichen Geb?uden versehenen L?ndereyen. Es f?hret den Nahmen ohne Zweifel daher, weil es sich gemeiniglich vor dem Hauptgute befindet; ob es gleich im Oberdeutschen fuhrwerk lautet, und daher manche zu einer irrigen Ableitung veranlasset hat, als wenn das Vorwerk eine Anstalt w?re, wohin das Fuhrwesen von dem Hauptgute verleget worden, welches zwar in einigen, aber vielleicht nur in wenigen F?llen zutrifft. In Baiern heisst ein Vorwerk ein Schwaig. ..." In the Northern Netherlands this is called a "voorwerk" or an "uithof". It's definitely another word than "bolwerk" (D), "Bollwerk" (G), "boulevard" (F) which is originally a construction (= een werk) of "bolen aat" as we say in Brabantish (= "Bohle" + "Holz" in German). Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks, everyone, for the tips regarding Polish _folwark_ and Yiddish _folvark_. Luc, interesting, that thing about _Vorwerk_ etc. While this may well be true, I am somewhat skeptical regarding the phonology of it. I hardly think that Polish and/or Yiddish would make German _...werk_ into _...wark_ or _...vark_, since they would render _...erC_ as _...erC_. _Folwark_ and _folvark_ would have to be derived from *_...wark_. German (and Dutch) _erC_ pretty much consistently corresponds to _arC_ in Lowlands Saxon (Low German); e.g. _Werk_ = _Wark_ [va:k] 'work', _Werder_ = _Warder_ ['va:d3`] 'river island', _Zwerg_ = _Dwarg_ [dva:x] 'dwarf', _Berg_ = _Barg_ [ba:x] 'mountain', 'hill', _kerben_ = _karven_ ['ka:vm=] 'to carve', _fertig_ = _fardig_ ['fa:dIC] 'ready', 'completed', _Lerche_ = (Lewark ~) _Lark_ [la:k] 'lark'. Switching between /r/ and /l/ is not unheard of in LS, though in most cases variation between [r] and [l] occurs in intervocalic "flap" /d/ or /t/ (e.g., _Butter_ ~ _Budder_ ~ _Burrer_ ~ _Buller_ 'butter'. I'd therefore guess that _folwark_ entered Polish, yes, from "German" as it was considered then, namely from Lowlands Saxon (via Kashubian?) and Yiddish from Polish. In fact, there is the LS family name _Vorwark_ (besides German _Vorwerk_). Also, there was supposed to be a place in what is now Poland (Gniezno/Gnesen, a little northeast of Poznan/Posen) called Vorwark, but I have not been able to verify this and do not know the Polish name. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 22:55:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:55:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.15 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (09) [E] Good luck, Tom! Isn?t it a sad state of affairs, though, Ron, for a language of several tens of millions of speakers even as recently as 50 years ago? Mike Wintzer THE FOLLOWING QUOETS EDITED BY ME...M.W. > From: Thomas Byro > Subject: Learning Plattdeutsch > >...The pressure against using the language was > enormous in my family. Then too, the language of instruction in school was > in Hochdeutsch. I remember the misery of some of my friends who only spoke > Plattdeutsch as we entered school because they could not understand the > teacher... >...Can anyone recommend any books or other learning materials so that I can learn > the language again? Preferably the dialect spoken in the Rahden area? > > Tom > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Reources > > Tom, > > I am afraid there is no textbook in English yet. I also doubt that you will > find any textbook for the exact dialect your ancestors spoke. If you can > read German, I recommend the book I recommended Gary Taylor a little while > ago (16.AUG.2002 (01)): > > > > For your purposes I'd recommend the following: > > Marianne Kloock & Ingo Viechelmann, _Uns plattd??tsch Spraakbook : > Texte to'n S?lvstlehren d?rch Lesen, Snacken un Schrieben mit > Grammatik : op hooch- un nedderd??tsch | auf hoch- und > niederdeutsch_, > Hamburg: Helmut Buske Verlag, 1989, ISBN 3-87118-907-3. > Revised edition 1996: 190 pp. ISBN 3-87548-134-8, hardbound, > Euro 16.80; > cassette 70 min. ISBN 3-87118-908-1. Euro 19.80 > > It's not fantastic (what is?)... ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.13 (09) [E] Tom wrote and Ron answered (edited): > From: Thomas Byro > Subject: Learning Plattdeutsch > >...The pressure against using the language was > enormous in my family. Then too, the language of instruction in school was > in Hochdeutsch. I remember the misery of some of my friends who only spoke > Plattdeutsch as we entered school because they could not understand the > teacher... WHAT ABOUT UNIVERSAL HUMAN RIGHTS? THEY GUARANTEE THE RIGHT TO CULTURE AND LANGUAGE! >...Can anyone recommend any books or other learning materials so that I can learn > the language again? Preferably the dialect spoken in the Rahden area? > > Tom TOM, GOOD LUCK!!! I WISH I HAD YOUR COURAGE AND MOTIVATION. > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Reources > > Tom, > > I am afraid there is no textbook in English yet. I also doubt that you will > find any textbook for the exact dialect your ancestors spoke. If you can > read German, I recommend the book I recommended Gary Taylor a little while > ago (16.AUG.2002 (01)): > > > > For your purposes I'd recommend the following: > > Marianne Kloock & Ingo Viechelmann, _Uns plattd??tsch Spraakbook : > Texte to'n S?lvstlehren d?rch Lesen, Snacken un Schrieben mit > Grammatik : op hooch- un nedderd??tsch | auf hoch- und > niederdeutsch_, > Hamburg: Helmut Buske Verlag, 1989, ISBN 3-87118-907-3. > Revised edition 1996: 190 pp. ISBN 3-87548-134-8, hardbound, > Euro 16.80; > cassette 70 min. ISBN 3-87118-908-1. Euro 19.80 > > It's not fantastic (what is?)... > Cheers! > Reinhard/Ron > RON, ISN?T IT A SAD STATE OF AFFAIRS THAT FOR A LANGUAGE SPOKEN BY SEVERAL TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AS RECENTLY AS 50 YEARS AGO; THERE IS SUCH A MEAGER ("not fantastic") CHOICE OF SELF-TEACH BOOKS? Mike Wintzer ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Mike, Lowlanders, Of course it's a sad state of affairs! However -- and this does not really distract from the sadness factor -- there are apparently other textbooks floating around, mostly for German schools, and there are not tens of millions of speakers but at the very, very most ten million. Estimates (in the absence of census figures) are all over the place. This is what I say at Lowlands Talk (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/): :: Number of speakers The number of Lowlands Saxon speakers is not known, since so far there have been no large-scale surveys. Estimates vary wildly, from 2 to 10 million. Between 1.5 and 2 million tend to be estimated for the Netherlands. Estimates for Germany are less specific. Much depends on how language competence is defined. The number would be large if it included people who are somewhat conversant and can follow simple narratives, and it would be even larger if it included those who consider themselves speakers but can really only manage lexically, idiomatically and grammatically deficient, German-based, "made-up Platt" (Patentplatt). The number of true native speakers is small and decreasing. However, there is a fair and perhaps growing number of North Germans who are proficient in Lowlands Saxon as a second or "resurrected" language. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 15 22:57:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2002 15:57:06 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.15 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 15.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (01) [E] Kate wrote: > these words as "Tag/T?g - Hund/H?nd". (Does such a variety of German exist?) If it helps any, my Swiss colleagues used to form such (to my ears) funny sounding plurals as Sch?fe (to Schaf.) Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 14:48:19 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:48:19 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.14 (06) [E] >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Etymology > >Dear Lowlanders, > >Can any of you help me with the etymology of Polish _folwark_ and Yiddish >_folvark_ (with a palatal /l/) '(country) estate', 'ranch'? It sounds >rather Middle Lowlands Saxon (Low German). (*_volwark_ "full work"?) > >Thanks in advance! >Reinhard/Ron Hello Ron ! The words in question (Polish >folwark< and Yiddish >folvark<) I believe to be derived from German >Vorwerk< (I don't know any proper English translation but it is a special kind of estate or farm). Little irritation is left by the palatal ~l~. I would expect a postpalatal sound with some throat pressure (sounding somewhat like ~forlwark~). Kind regards Holger ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L Etymology The word OK originated in one of the early 19th century American presidential elections. I think it was that between Harrison and Tyler. Anyway, one of them was described in the election propaganda as being a rough frontiersman, a native of the upstate village of Old Kinderhook, which was a frontier village in his youth. Actually he was no such thing, but was a member of the Dutch patroon class of upstate New York. Anyway, during the course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." It amazes me how the word OK has gained acceptance among speakers of so many languages and at how few people actually know what it means. My confusion regarding my perceived difficulties regarding the umlaut situation in Yiddish I just posted in response to another letter. I chaged the heading to Etymology, as suggested by Ron Tom From: Kate Gladstone what the word OK means and how it came about ... Re your inquiry about: > why Yiddish lacks the umlauts?. And how Yiddish gets around the > difficulties posed by this lack? I speak (some) Yiddish, I know several fluent speakers, and to none of us has it ever occurred that an umlaut-less language suffers "difficulties." (This reminds me of the time that a native speaker of Spanish asked me how we English-speakers could possibly understand each other, what with "a" often sounding like /e:/, "e" often sounding like /i:/, and "i" often sounding like /a:i/ .) > Folks, > Of course Yiddish has "umlauts", it just doesn't > realize them as "ue" (I'll avoid diacriticals in case > it doesn't read right on all browsers) or "oe". The > plural of "buch" in yiddish is "bicher". In fact, Yiddish carries this form of umlauting further than Standard German does ... the word "tog" (= 'day') forms its plural as 'teg', and the word "hunt" (= 'dog') forms its plural as "hint": somewhat as if a variety of German existed somewhere which formed these words as "Tag/T?g - Hund/H?nd". (Does such a variety of German exist?) Conversely, some Yiddish words lack umlauting where Standard German would have it: e.g., where Standard German has "schlafen/er schl?ft", Yiddish (at least in the central Polish variety I heard sometimes as a child) has what Standard German orthography would transcribe as "schlufen/er schluft". > I don't know if yiddish didn't carry the typical > German kind of "ue" and "oe" umlaut sounds, Yiddish, indeed, does not have these sounds: if we used Standard German orthography to spell the sounds of the Yiddish equivalent of "ich h?re" ('I hear'), the Yiddish version would look like "ich here" ... (by the way, in reading the above example please also note that Yiddish (unlike Standard German) pronounces the final consonant of "ich" with the consonant-sound that in Standard German does not occur in "ich" but does occur in "ach". (This probably has less to do with the fact that Hebrew - or German - spelling treats these sounds as identical than it has to do with the fact that Yiddish split off from Standard German before the "ich"-sound became established as an allophone of the "ach"-sound. > I forgot to mention the "soft l" (a palatalized version, vs. a "thick" one, > a contrast like in Russian and Gaelic) that some Eastern Yiddish dialects > have acquired due to Slavonic (probably Russian) influence. Uriel Weinreich > kindly distinguishes it by means of an apostrophe after the _lamed_. There also exists a "soft n", generally transcribed as "ny" and spelled in Yiddish with the equivalent Hebrew letters - e.g., in the (probably originally-Slavic) Yiddish word "paskudnyak," meaning "scoundrel". Yours for better letters, Kate Gladstone - Handwriting Repair kate at global2000.net http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair 325 South Manning Boulevard Albany, New York 12208-1731 USA telephone 518/482-6763 ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 14:51:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:51:31 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.16 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Festivities" 2002.10.09 (03) [E/LS] >From: Hyazinth Sievering (Zintus) >Subject: festivities > >Does anybody know the meaning of "Kip Kap K??z???" and "S??????r Martins V??z???" >(=the birds of St. Martin ??) Hello, Hyazinth ! >Kipkapko"o"gel< is the LS word for >lantern< in Eastern Friesland and obviously in other areas too. Kumpelment Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 14:56:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 07:56:32 -0700 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: fr.andreas at juno.com fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.15 (08) [E/German] Hey. The State of Franklin (or later, Frankland) was formed from counties or territories in what used to be Western North Carolina, but across the mountains! They were in what is now East Tennessee. The statehood of Frankland (my preference, which I'll explain in a moment) was defeated by Daniel Webster, a blot on his memory. This was rather earlier then the time of the Civil War, and before the statehood of Tennessee in 1796. These men of Wautauga and Holston Settlements were organized under Cols John Sevier and William Walker and Hugh Underwood (buried next-door) and William Blount, later the first governor of Tennessee. The only battle of the Revolutionary War that was fought in Frankland was fought in what is now my back yard. The Treaty of Dumplin Valley was signed two doors down. When I write that I am a Southern Appalachian, what you must understand is that I am neither from Central nor from Northern Appalachia. Southern Appalachia is the Blue Ridge, the Great Smokies and the Cumberland Mountains of Virginia, Tennessee, North and South Carolina, north Georgia and northern Alabama. It has nothing to do with the Civil War, either. My family were Federalists. We don't say "you-all." The plural is "yuins." We prefer to be called Ridgerunners or Mountainfolk. If you're not one of us, please don't use the "H-word." I had to call a man down for that the other day. Highlander is acceptable, but not widely used. It might be supposed that we are a little prickly. Central Appalachia is Kentucky, parts of Ohio and West Virginia. Northern Appalachia extends through Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York and New England. Appalachia all together is a pretty big place with widely diverging language and folkways. Lastly, why Frankland? Because it best carries the intent of what we meant by naming the state Franklin as well, without the supposed flattery to Ol Ben. A franklin is a free-holder. Frankland simply means the Land of the Free. I am a Frankland seperatist, but we're not organized... yet. Nice to hear from you, Ed. Yorn, Avva Andreas (Richard Turner) ---------- From: Pat Reynolds Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.08.06 (02) [D/E] In message <3D5042C3.17CAB856 at lowlands-l.net>, From: "Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann" writes >In the city of "Potsdam", very close to Berlin, You also can see very >strong Dutch influences. I visited Potsdam about ten years ago, and was very struck by the early modern houses there which utilise the short wall anchor construction technique which has its heartland in the Low Countries. Is that what you meant by 'seeing' the influence? I think the buildings probably dated from around the 17th century. It was dark, and I didn't take any photographs, apart from one in a restaurant, which is decorated with architectural fragments such as window-frames, taken from now-demolished buildings. I have not traced the eastern fringe of the use of the construction technique, but it goes some way in to Germany (e.g. to Bergedorf Castle in Hamburg, various buildings in Cologne). I was told that the buildings were constructed by Dutch builders who had been brought in with, or were possibly the same people as, Dutch men contracted to dig a canal at Pottsdam. If anyone knows any more about these buildings, or the history of early modern Pottsdam, please let me know! I shall look in the areas Ron mentioned to see what the buildings are like there, too. I am very interested in seeing if there are parallels which can be drawn between the use of language and material culture: both in the original extent - like Ron's description of the Linguistic Low Countries which extends into Germany, the Building Low Countries extends there, and also into the Pas de Calais. And, the extent of continuity of the linguistic and building tradition - did people keep speaking Dutch in Pottsdam for the same length of time that they kept building 'Dutch'? I am currently building a database of buildings, which includes their longitude and latitude, so that the data can be displayed through a GIS programme. Best wishes to you all, Pat -- Pat Reynolds pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years time" (T. Pratchett) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 15:22:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 08:22:31 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.16 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: resources Hello Lowlanders ! Following the recent discussion on festivities I've got the idea to start a new web-project. It's just in the beginning yet - much has to be done during long winter-nights to complete it - but probably You want to have a look already. If interested go to: Kumpelment Holger ---------- From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] Ron I just thought of a contact who might be able to resolve this question of a possible Judeo-lowland language. This is Professor Stanley Ned Rosenbaum, formerly professor of Judaic Studies at Dickinson College in Carlisle, PA. My son Andrew and I remember him fondly from Torah study here in Carlisle. Torah study with Ned was an intellectual orgy. Ned immortalized Andrew in his most recent book by citing him in a footnote based on an observation Andrew made when he was 12 years old that apparently no one had thought of before. I could provide you with Ned's e-mail address, after sending him an introductory e-mail, introducing you, or I could function as a sort of middleman. I think that you would find it fascinating and productive to get to know Ned.Unfortunately, Ned no longer lives here, having moved to Kentucky when he retired. Tom ---------- From: Veturlidi Oskarsson Subject: Old Frisian Hello, I am new on the list and don't know what you have been discussing, so I might be asking something that already has been answered. I wanted to ask if anybody could tell me about the sources to Old Frisian. In dictionaries, the period of Old Frisian is usually 1270-1500. But are there no older sources to the Frisian language than from the late 13th century? Greetings, Veturlidi Oskarsson, University of Uppsala ---------- From: fr.andreas at juno.com fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2002.10.15 (01) [E] Dear George and all, While there really is a hierodeacon of ours who used to be a gnostic, it wasn't the religion he learned at his mother's knee. Of course I never thought, George, that you were intending to say that the hills were alive with Valentinians, Ophites and Basilidians. There are some Waldensians left over in Valdez, NC, though. Witch lore? Yep. Witches? Probably not til after Gerald Gardner and Sibyl Leek and that lot. I don't set much store by theories that have strange survivals tucked away in these hollows. Such is the stuff of the Silver John stories of Manly Wade Wellman but not of much fact. It's rather like the reputation of George Pickingill in England... much bruited yet still undemonstrated. The nonsense chorus of Old Bang'Em isn't so much an incantation, I think, as it is a sort of dog-Latin. I poked fun at it and us, as is our wont. Bibliomancy is the only sort of mantia found in these parts, based on a belief in the (magical) power in the words of Scripture. I remember that there is a verse in Proverbs that gets rid of warts, but I can't remember which. I have seen a Civil War era Scripture-amulet purporting to render the bearer bullet-proof. At least, there wasn't any blood on the paper! The relation of Jove to jovial is causal, that is, etymological. Joviality is named after the supposed astrological influence of his star. As for Tore (maybe Tor?) wood, you'd need to ask a Scot. Most importantly, however, thanks a lot for the recommendation of the resource material. Ron, mightn't some of that be named as an off-line resource in our Appalachian section? It's certainly the right stuff. Avva Andreas (Richard Turner) ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Reources Veturli?i ?skarsson: > I am new on the list and don't know what you have been discussing Welcome, Veturli?i! (What a lovely, romantic-sounding Icelandic name!) Have you had a look at our on- and offline Frisian resource lists? You can find them under "Resources" at our site (http://www.lowlands-l.net). Avva Andreas: > Most importantly, however, thanks a lot for the recommendation of > the resource material. Ron, mightn't some of that be named as an off-line > resource in our Appalachian section? It's certainly the right stuff. Sure! I'd have to go back to the archive to retrieve it. In fact, we *should* have separate guides for Appalachian, so online and offline tips would be greatfully received. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 16:08:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:08:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.16 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.14 (05) [E] I don't know enough Yiddish to know how the language gets around the lack of umlauts. I recently read an article about the revival of Yiddish in the states, not only as a spoken and written language but as a language of the stage. Yiddish once had a vibrant presence on the stage in New York. The article referred to the stage as Die Biehne. This would be the same as the Hochdeutsch name for the insect that produces honey. I don't know how the two are distinguished in Yiddish. An article I read on the web suggested that Yiddish shares elements of pronounciation found only in dialects in eastern Bayern and suggests that this area is where most European Jews originated. I would disagree with this notion because it is allmost certain that Jews lived in Rhineland cities such as Colonnia Aggripina during the Roman empire and probably traded with the German tribes across the Rhine.This would have been before Yiddish developed as a language. Has anyone ever searched for Jewish artifacts in the later trading centers such as Hedeby, Birka, Hamburg, etc? What language would such people have spoken? Tom ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology But, Tom, Yiddish *does* have umlauting; e.g., (*_houz_ >) _hojz_ 'house' (cf. German _Haus_, LS _Huus_) vs (*_h??zer_ >)_hajzer_ 'houses' (cf. German _H?user_, LS _H??s'_), _vort_ 'word' (cf. German _Wort_, LS _Woord_) vs (*_v?rter_ >) _verter_ 'words' (cf. German _W?rter_, LS _W??r(d')_). Like most Germanic varieties of Eastern Europe, Yiddish changed the front rounded vowels (? and ?) into unrounded ones (e and i). Just because a language does not use a pair of dots above the symbol for an umlauted vowel does not mean that it does not have the phonological process of umlauting. So there is a difference between the phonological rule of umlauting and the orthographic way in which it is represented orthographically. The same goes for English. It started off with umlauting (e.g., _man_ > _men_, _mouse_ > _mice_) but later (after French influx?) stopped it. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 16:26:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 09:26:23 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] Thomas Byro wrote: > The word OK originated in one of the early 19th century American > presidential elections. I think it was that between Harrison and Tyler. > Anyway, one of them was described in the election propaganda as being a > rough frontiersman, a native of the upstate village of Old Kinderhook, which > was a frontier village in his youth. Actually he was no such thing, but was > a member of the Dutch patroon class of upstate New York. Anyway, during the > course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the > election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." Thomas writes about the 'Dutch patroon class' and Old Kinderhook. Maybe it's nice to know for people interested in Dutch language and culture in the eastern states of the USA that an archaic form of Dutch (Jersey Dutch, Albany Dutch, Mohawk Dutch or Schoharie Dutch; there might have been differences between these varieties) was still spoken there well into the 19th century in northern New Jersey and upstate New York, including Kinderhook. That's over 250 years after the Dutch first settled on the banks of the Hudson river and 200 years after the English took over the Dutch colony of New Netherland there. In fact, the Jersey Dutch language had not yet completely died out in the 1930s and 40s! On a few genealogical sites, I found some remarks, of which the following (about a Rachel Hoppers who died in 1937, aged 73 - see http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~reetrees/line.html for details): "James and his wife Rachel were the last of this family of Hoppers to be able to communicate with each other in "Jersey Dutch." Born two hundred years after their Dutch ancestors had emigrated, they were the last generation to be able to converse in a language that had been perpetuated by the closeness of the Bergen Rockland community. Although the language had changed over the years, according to his dau. Ruth, James was still able to communi- cate with workers he hired who were natives of Holland". Even more striking is the story of the Ramapo Mountain People (or "Jackson Whites"). They are a people of mixed Black, Dutch, Indian (and maybe a few others). Several sources say that some of them still speak Jersey Dutch. An interesting site about this subject can be found on http://www.netstrider.com/documents/whites/ A few quotes: That's how I first came to know who the Jackson Whites were - from Willie G. Mann, Jr., my first and best friend. Junior told me stories about these shy, gentle, reclusive mountain people. They kept mostly to them- selves. A lot of the townspeople in the valleys below their homes called them names because they were afraid of them or thought themselves better. Among Junior's many cousins, some were albino. Some had extra fingers or toes. Some had webbed fingers or toes. Some were a bit slow-witted. Some knew Indian medicine. Some spoke proudly of their Tuscarora or Hes- sian or Dutch blood. Some spoke "Jersey Dutch," an old dialect that the newer valley people couldn't understand. Some people said they came from runaway slaves or black whores. Some said they came from traitors and turncoats. Some people called them "Jacks." Others called them "Bockies." It really didn't matter. They were all wrong anyway If there's anyone out there who knows more about this subject (the Dutch language in and around the area once known as New Nether- land), please let me know! Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 19:12:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:12:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] At 07:56 AM 10/16/02 -0700, Avva Andreas (Richard Turner) wrote: > These men of Wautauga and Holston Settlements were organized under >Cols John Sevier and William Walker and Hugh Underwood (buried next-door) >and William Blount, later the first governor of Tennessee. The only >battle of the Revolutionary War that was fought in Frankland was fought >in what is now my back yard. The Treaty of Dumplin Valley was signed two >doors down. Outside my back door is a large cemetery which encompasses the site of the fort from whence 700 British regulars marched on the night of June 5, 1813, and surprised an invading army of 3,000 US regulars in the predawn about seven miles east of here and routed them. Probably the news of this humiliating defeat hasn't reached southern Appalachia yet, eh? > When I write that I am a Southern Appalachian, what you must >understand is that I am neither from Central nor from Northern >Appalachia. Southern Appalachia is the Blue Ridge, the Great Smokies and >the Cumberland Mountains of Virginia, Tennessee, North and South >Carolina, north Georgia and northern Alabama. It has nothing to do with >the Civil War, either. My family were Federalists. We don't say >"you-all." The plural is "yuins." We prefer to be called Ridgerunners or >Mountainfolk. If you're not one of us, please don't use the "H-word." I >had to call a man down for that the other day. Highlander is acceptable, >but not widely used. > It might be supposed that we are a little prickly. > Central Appalachia is Kentucky, parts of Ohio and West Virginia. >Northern Appalachia extends through Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York and >New England. Appalachia all together is a pretty big place with widely >diverging language and folkways. I have an ancestor who fought in the Revolutionary War (what I now prefer to call the First American Civil War, but we all know how prickly yuins are about that) who moved to northern Appalachia after the war, namely to Vermont. In the mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire they still speak a very ancient Anglian dialect. A popular expression in the mountains when strangers stop for directions is "You can't get the-ah from he-ah." The rest of what they have to say is usually pretty unintelligible to flatlanders. > Nice to hear from you, Ed. Yoo too, eh? Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: elsie zinsser ezinsser at icon.co.za Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] Hi all and especially Pat Reynolds, You are saying: << I visited Potsdam (...) I think the buildings probably dated from around the 17th century. (....) Dutch builders who had been brought in with, or were possibly the same people as, Dutch men contracted to dig a canal at Pottsdam>> It might interest you that our Cape Dutch style is very similar to the style of buildings in not only Potsdam but towards the north-east as far as Danzig (Koenigsberg). Regards Elsie Zinsser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 19:14:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:14:50 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: Etymology Hello everyone: From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L Etymology The word OK originated in one of the early 19th century American presidential elections. I think it was that between Harrison and Tyler. Anyway, one of them was described in the election propaganda as being a rough frontiersman, a native of the upstate village of Old Kinderhook, which was a frontier village in his youth. Actually he was no such thing, but was a member of the Dutch patroon class of upstate New York. Anyway, during the course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." It amazes me how the word OK has gained acceptance among speakers of so many languages and at how few people actually know what it means. I'm pretty sure that "Old Kinderhook" was Martin van Buren. Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 19:20:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:20:05 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.16 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.16 (04) [E] about oldfrisian. Hi! About old frisian: >From wim wkv at home.nl Hi! Here is some really really old frisian: Runic inscriptions found in the Netherlands. ======================================================================= About 25 Runic Inscriptions were found in the Netherlands, and specially in Friesland. Some are of Scandinavian origin. 1. Scandinavian coin, 11th century: "kunar amot thisae. (Gunnar owns this stamp). 2. Iron key. Probably Scandinavian: "Anuars" (Anvar). 3. Chess piece. "agerotra:mosel? / mahtelokpaetaerr?? (Machtelt and Peter). 4. Bracket. "foRo glola" 5. Narval tooth, Scandinavian. "thuRh suaerri" (? Sverri). 6. Sword handle, bone. Anglo-Saxon runes. "iethemyka " (the meek). 7. Anglo-Saxon coin. "Eadnoth" (Name of a coin master of King Offa, 757-796 AD) Friesian Runes, found in Flood mounts. ("Terpen"). ======================================================================= Usually written on Taxis wood, a tree which was considered special, bows were made off its wood. A book: "A. Quak, Runica Frisia, in: R.H. Bremmer. Aspects of Old Friesian Philology, AbaeG 31-32, 1990. Page 357-370. 8. On a Bone Comb. "Eda". 9. Miniature sword made out of taxis wood, 6th or 7th century. "Edae : boda" (Ed the postman). 10. Pieces of a walking stick made out of bone, 8th century. "tuda awudukiusthu" (or maybe "awadukirithu". (Tuda). 11. Taxis stick, 6th century. "Thiniaeberetdud / [.]n : biridmi" (this taxis always bares, .n bares me). 12. Pen made out of horse bone. "iligliu". 13. Solidus. "skanomodu" Friesian, or English. 14. Bag for a comb. "Murae". 15. Bone name tag, 6th or 7th century. "i : aehae : k" (I am Ahe). 16. Gold coin 6th, century. "hada". 17. Comb made out of deer antler, 7th century. "xnli" (Miedema). 18. Comb bag. "l, and upside down l" (laguR, water, sea). 19. Comb made out of deer antler, 8th, or 9th century. "aelb kabu deda habuku". (Alb did the comb for Habuku). 20. Handle for a sword or knife, 8th, or 9th century. "ekumaeditoka". (I the un-maimed grabbed the sword). 21. Solidus, 6th century. "weladu" (Weland). 22. Weave sword, taxis wood. "adugislu : meth gisuhidu" . (Adugisl goes with Gisuhilde). 23. Taxis stick, maybe a prayer stick, 8th century. "ophaemu gistnda aemluth / iwim ostaehthuaen / iwiosustduaele". (At Opheim takes a stand Hamlet, with taxis sticks a favor you get, with this taxis do us a favor always" 24. Piece of bone. "inguR ngR" (?Ing). 25. Gold hanger, 600 AD "hiwi". There are more.for example, a joker wrote "FM" on an old piece of bone."Fries Museum". However, these are probably fake. For more information I advise e-mailing the Fries Museum. http://www.friesmuseum.nl/ Well, that's all I could find about old frisian. I hope thqat was of some help. http://www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/Runic.htm this page is also stored on my web page. (Runic.htm) Moi! Wim [Verdoold] (32) From: Veturlidi Oskarsson Subject: Old Frisian Hello, I am new on the list and don't know what you have been discussing, so I might be asking something that already has been answered. I wanted to ask if anybody could tell me about the sources to Old Frisian. In dictionaries, the period of Old Frisian is usually 1270-1500. But are there no older sources to the Frisian language than from the late 13th century? Greetings, Veturlidi Oskarsson, University of Uppsala ---------- From: Pat Reynolds Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] >From: Marco Evenhuis >Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] > >Thomas writes about the 'Dutch patroon class' >and Old Kinderhook. Maybe it's nice to know >for people interested in Dutch language and >culture in the eastern states of the USA that an >archaic form of Dutch (Jersey Dutch, Albany >Dutch, Mohawk Dutch or Schoharie Dutch; >there might have been differences between these >varieties) was still spoken there well into the >19th century in northern New Jersey and upstate >New York, including Kinderhook. C.T. Gehring's _The Dutch Language in Colonial New York; An Investigation of a Language in Decline_ (1976) might be of interest to you. I would like to know more about the different dialects of Dutch used in the US, as I'd like to see if they can be related to different building traditions. Best wishes, Pat -- Pat Reynolds pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years time" (T. Pratchett) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 16 19:22:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2002 12:22:31 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.10.16 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 16.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: witchlore and Appalachian songs Hi all! Richard doubts there were any real witches in Appalachia in early times - and who am I to argue - he lives there! I only point out there was plenty of LORE about them. For instance - a witch would complain soup was salty if even one grain of salt was in the bowl full. An iron horseshoe over the door might scare her off. She wouldn't touch real silverware either. One county in south west Virginia was said to be "thick as fleas" with witches at the time of the civil war (war between the states) - but Richard might observe - shore - they're allus in the NEXT holler - never in yorin. Do any other Lowlanders have traditional witch lore? We are getting into the Halloween season after all. Four more CDs I can wholeheartedly recommend for true Appalachian English: 1. "Nothing Seems Better To Me" The Frank Warner Collection Volume II Appleseed Recordings 2. "Doug and Jack Wallin: Family Songs and Stories from the North Carolina Mountains" Smithsonian Folkways CD 40013 3.&4 Southern Journey Volumes 1 and 2 Songs From the Southern Mountains: The Alan Lomax Collection Rounder CD 1701 and 1702 and three more videos: 1. "Appalachian Journey" Vestapol 13079 2. "Shady Grove" Vestapol 13071 3. "Legends of Old Time Music" Vestapol 13026 Finally, August House has produced a nice casette tape "Ozark Ghost Stories" told by Richard Alan Young and Judy Dockery Young. Don't be a feared of no haints now George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: fr.andreas at juno.com Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.10.16 (10) [E] Dear George, You probably know of it, being very well informed! but there is a famous and documented case of what we used to call a witch in Tennessee. I refer of course to the Bell Witch. This spirit wasn't any sort of human, as witches are thought of now, but was a haint or booger of some terrible sort that plagued the Bell family back some time in the 19th century. It was even the cause of a death or two! This difference, the witch as haint instead of human, is a peculiarity of our local speech and folkways. And thanks again for recommending more resources. Your shelves must be really interesting! Yours, Avva Andreas (Richard Turner) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:40 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:40 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Architecture" 2002.10.16 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Pat Reynolds Subject: LL-L "Buildings" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] In message <01a101c27547$fed51360$1c0d5f80 at dental.washington.edu>, >Elsie Zinsser writes >of buildings in not only Potsdam but towards the north-east as far as Danzig >(Koenigsberg). > Hi Elsie, I've definitely seen Short Wall Anchor construction in Belgium, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Germany, Indonesia, Latvia, the Netherlands, the Netherlands Antilles, Norway, Poland, the Republic of South Africa, Sweden, the United Kingdom and the United States (mostly in photographs - I wish I had the budget to visit all these places). Less definitely, they may be seen in Austria, Canada (in a Huguenot building), Ghana, India, Malaysia, Sri Lanka and Surinam. There may also be buildings in Brazil, China (Formosa), Guinea, Iran, and Japan. In other words, they can be found in areas which were colonised or traded with by people from the Low Countries. So far I've really only explored the WIC and VOC colonisation - I really should check out the Belgian Congo! I found that I knew a bit more about the Pottsdam houses: The terraced houses of the Holl?ndisches Viertel (Dutch Quarter), Potsdam, Germany were built to the designs of Johann Bourmann the Elder (B?ttner and Meissner _Town Houses of Europe_, 1983, fig 198). With best wishes to all, Pat -- Pat Reynolds pat at caerlas.demon.co.uk "It might look a bit messy now, but just you come back in 500 years time" (T. Pratchett) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:43 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:43 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (08) [E] Thomas Byro wrote: > Anyway, during the > course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the > election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." Kevin Browne replied: > I'm pretty sure that "Old Kinderhook" was Martin van Buren. I remember reading somewhere that not only Martin van Buren was indeed "Old Kinderhook", the word OK actually came from the fact that he signed most docu- ments with the abreveation of his nick name, O.K. Regards, Marco ---------- From: Ed Alexander edsells at cogeco.ca Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (08) [E] At 12:14 PM 10/16/02 -0700, Thomas Byro wrote: >The word OK originated in one of the early 19th century American >presidential elections. Actually, this is only one hypothesis among many, and should be presented that way, unless, of course, you have some information which substantiates this. Frankly, I think it's quite a leap from an abbreviation of an election moniker to a universally used particle of confirmation. Why, for example, didn't something like this happen with Abraham Lincoln, who was known as "Old Abe". I don't think anyone ever started saying, "he is A.B." >I think it was that between Harrison and Tyler. >Anyway, one of them was described in the election propaganda as being a >rough frontiersman, a native of the upstate village of Old Kinderhook, which >was a frontier village in his youth. Actually he was no such thing, but was >a member of the Dutch patroon class of upstate New York. Anyway, during the >course of the election he was decribed as being "Old Kinderhook." As the >election progressed further he was described as simply "he is OK." It >amazes me how the word OK has gained acceptance among speakers of so many >languages and at how few people actually know what it means. I'm not going to look this up, but I think that Tyler was Harrison's Vice Presidential running mate. Harrison was a great treaty breaker and scourge of the Midwestern Indians, and fought a battle with them on the Tippecanoe River in present day Indiana just before the War of 1812 broke out. Even though Harrison technically lost the battle, it was spun otherwise in the white press and he became known as Tippecanoe, hence their election slogan: Tippecanoe and Tyler, Too. Hard to picture a man with the last name of Harrison as being a member of the upstate New York patroons, too. Ed Alexander ---------- From: erek gass Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] I'm astonished that this "OK" business resurfaces SO often. There are two possible (and both plausible) explanations for the rise of "OK" (or "okay", if you prefer). One is that cited below (except it should be noted that it refers to James Van Buren, who lived at, Kinderhook NY and was sometimes called "Old Kinderhook" (abbreviated "OK"). The explanation is that Germans immigrants working in factories checked the merchandise, and if were acceptable marked it "All Correct", but, "being immigrants", and thus not knowing the language well used "OK" because "all correct" sounded to them like "oll korrect". I personally doubt this latter explanation because the German equivalent of "all" is spelt pretty much like its English cousin. Perhaps somewhere some old document will be found that reallyh attests to the origin of the word. Till then, it really remains very speculative. Erek ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:47 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:47 -0700 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] On Wednesday 16 October 2002 13:12, Ed wrote: > I have an ancestor who fought in the Revolutionary War (what I now prefer > to call the First American Civil War, but we all know how prickly yuins are > about that) who moved to northern Appalachia after the war, namely to > Vermont. ? Yeah, well to quote from a website listing the early settlers of Sand Lake, NY, http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyrensse/sandlake.htm "Bowman, John (said to have been unpopular "because of his supposed sympathy with the mother-country during the Revolutionary struggle")" I've seen the old county history that reference probably comes from. It doesn't take in account the anglization of many of the names, and the fact that 'Sand Lake' was, and still is, more an area than a settlement. When he moved out there from town it was more a lack of sympathy with either side in a war that didn't concern him. > In the mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire they still speak a > very ancient Anglian dialect. ?A popular expression in the mountains when > strangers stop for directions is "You can't get the-ah from he-ah." ?The > rest of what they have to say is usually pretty unintelligible to > flatlanders. Rensselaer county adjoins Vermont, and i have lived in both Vermont and New Hampshire also. It's only a couple of hundred mile square to encompass the whole area. I never really thought of it as a dialect, especially an ancient Anglian one. The vowels just got a little flatter as you went east. In fact, when i was out hiking Sunday, a couple asked me if they would get to the trailhead the way they were going. They had crossed a ridge and were going 180 degrees in the wrong direction. There was no way they could have continued in that drainage and gotten to their car without a very long detour -- I really used just that phrase, 'you can't get there from here'. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 14:52:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 07:52:50 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] Marco I lived in Ringwood in northern New Jersey for years. I used to know many of the Jackson Whites personally. Although family names like vanZutphen, Onderdonk, deGroat, vanDunk, etc. predominate, I never came across anyione who spoke other than English. But their population ranges through some pretty wild areas, so who knows. Many of the ones I knew made a living in questionable ways, such as "jacking" deer (I know a bar in Wanaque with an enormous meat locker where one can sell such meat). They are universally proud of their ability to shoot and to hunt. Their favorite watering hole, by the way, is a bar in the remote mountains operated by a man from Bremen, Walter Fahloh. Walter calls the place "Walters Mountain Rest.' There is a big sign out, "Wellcome Old Bastards." There is a shooting range out back and Jackson White mountain men come in toting their guns. Some come in barefoot. If you ask Walter for a shot of "mellow Corn", he will bring an unlabelled bottle out from under the counter and serve you homemade schnapps so powerful that I swear it will take the paint off a car. I attended a lecture at Ringwood Manor, given by the local historical society years ago on the origin of the Jackson Whites. According to the lecturer, the name originated with a man named Jackson, who got as contract to supply 200 prostitutes to the English army in New York during the revolutionary war. He got some prostitutes to volunteer off the streets of london but got nowhere the total that he needed. So, he started kidnapping women, and brought his total up to 100. For the remainder, he bught 100 slaves and set off for New York. The women were kept in a stockade and were abandoned when the English lost the war and had to break out. Everywhere they went they were shooed off by farmers with guns, so they made their way across the Hudson River to northern New Jersy, an area that was inhabbited by Dutch bandits who had intermarried with Indians. They intermarried with these people and thus were born the Jackson Whites. My brother still lives in that area and he informed that that the Jackson Whites had recently been classified as the Ramapo Indian tribe. By the way, I heard of another remote population originating in Scotland who live near Bear Mountain, NY. Reportedly they speak a form of English that no one can understand and they also live by hunting and who knows what else. Reportedly many also go baefoot. Tom ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] On Wednesday 16 October 2002 10:26, Marco wrote: > If there's anyone out there who knows more > about this subject (the Dutch language in and > around the area once known as New Nether- > land), please let me know! I can only answer in the negative. I grew up in Wynantskill, NY, which was one of the small villages formed from Rensselaerwyck, which is the present day Rensselaer county. The Dutch Reformed church dated back to 1794, although the present building is newer. The old church was still there when I was a kid, but had almost reached 'haunted house status' In my family, my paternal grandmother was the last person who could speak anything but English. Unfortunately, I was very young when she died, so I no idea what dialect it was. Some phrases and words remained, but that was about it. For instance, I was in my teens before I knew what 'chives' were. i'd eaten a lot of Schnittlau though. Many of the place names reflected the heritage, though many were really more German than Dutch, like Berlin, Alps, Nassau. Some were Anglicized, like the Greenbushes. Wynantskill and Poestenkill survived, I think, because those were the name of the creeks also. Even the term 'Dutch' was applied more in the sense of Deutsch, rather than strictly implying Dutch. When I went back for my mother's funeral, the minister in the church was from the Netherlands. (I don't think Dutch Reformed ministers are churned out by US seminaries anymore, though the one when I was growing up did come from pennsylvania). As far as I know, there was no one in the church that could speak to the minister in his native language. There may have been other pockets where Dutch survived. Rensselaer was rural, and some of the villages were quite isolated, so one would think it would be there, if anyplace. To reference the 'history' thread, this area definitely is northern Appalachia, with all the clanishness and conservatism of the southern mountains, except it is Dutch/German rather than Scotch/Irish/British. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Robert, Your grandmother's _Schnittlau_ apparently corresponds to Standard German _Schnittlauch_ (literally "cut(ting) leek/onion:) 'chive(s)'. There are many names for it in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), depending on the dialect: _Beesslook_, _Beessluuk_, _Beslack_, _Beslook_, _Bieslack_, _Bieslook_, _Graslook_, _Schnittlow_, _Sneelook_, _Snittlook_, _Snittlow_, _Snittsippel_, _Snittziepel_, _Snittzipoll_, _Snittzippel_. Dutch has _bieslook_. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 23:25:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:25:25 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Szelog, Mike Subject: History Hello all, On Wednesday 16 October 2002 13:12, Ed wrote: > In the mountains of Vermont and New Hampshire they still speak a > very ancient Anglian dialect. ?A popular expression in the mountains when > strangers stop for directions is "You can't get the-ah from he-ah." ?The > rest of what they have to say is usually pretty unintelligible to > flatlanders. I live in NH and have been to some pretty rural places in the state as well as Vermont and Maine. I've never thought of our "accent" as an ancient Anglian dialect. I believe our speech to be more of an accent than true dialect, though there are certainly true "dialect" words. One feature of our speech which is usually universally quoted is our "post-vocalic r deletion"; the preceding vowel tends to become lengthened and in a two (or more) syllable word, can actually "evolve", if you will, into a pure glide, either a front or back glide depending on the surrounding vowels. For example, 'there' can become 'THEY-ah' and 'door' can become 'DOH-ah'. Syllables in caps indicate stress. We do indeed have a very lilting, somewhat sing-song quality to our speech (if spoken very broadly) and it is VERY difficult for people "from away" to imitate. People can learn how to properly pronounce a word in our accent, but when it comes time to say an entire sentence, well, let's just say if you weren't born here, you'll never quite get it! I'm really not sure where this sing-song/lilting quality comes from, though I strongly suspect it's a sort of remnant/carry-over from the very early Irish/Scots settlers in New England. Generally, the further "Down East" you go (that is, the further to the north east, particularly in Maine), the broader the accent becomes. When spoken fast, it can seem pretty unintelligible to those not accustomed to it! Mike Szelog Manchester (Manch'stah), NH ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 23:26:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:26:57 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Szelog, Mike Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (05) [E] Thomas and Robert, thanks for the information! Thomas wrote: > I lived in Ringwood in northern New Jersey for years. I used to know many > of the Jackson Whites personally. Although family names like vanZutphen, > Onderdonk, deGroat, vanDunk, etc. predominate, I never came across anyione > who spoke other than English. But their population ranges through some > pretty wild areas, so who knows. Many of the ones I knew made a living in > questionable ways, such as "jacking" deer (I know a bar in Wanaque with an > enormous meat locker where one can sell such meat). They are universally > proud of their ability to shoot and to hunt. I already thought it would be very questionable that these people would still speak a language that had died out almost a century earlier in all neighbouring valleys. Nevertheless there should be a whole chapter about the language of the Jackson Whites in a book called 'The Ramapo Mountain People' by a David S. Cohen. That should be worth checking out, since I found some remarks on the internet as "In New Jersey there is a language that is a version of Flemish mixed with English, plus a few animal & plant terms from Lenape-Delaware Indian, called 'Jersey Dutch.' The variant spoken by the Mountain People is called 'n?xer d?uts,' that is, 'Negro Dutch' (see Cohen, "The Ramapo Moun- tain People," Rutgers Univ Press, 1974, pp 142- 143)". I take it that traces of this Jersey Dutch dialect can still be found in the speech of the Jackson Whites. > I attended a lecture at Ringwood Manor, given by the local historical > society years ago on the origin of the Jackson Whites. According to the > lecturer, the name originated with a man named Jackson, who got as contract > to supply 200 prostitutes to the English army in New York during the > revolutionary war. He got some prostitutes to volunteer off the streets of > london but got nowhere the total that he needed. So, he started kidnapping > women, and brought his total up to 100. For the remainder, he bught 100 > slaves and set off for New York. > The women were kept in a stockade and were abandoned when the English lost > the war and had to break out. Everywhere they went they were shooed off by > farmers with guns, so they made their way across the Hudson River to > northern New Jersy, an area that was inhabbited by Dutch bandits who had > intermarried with Indians. They intermarried with these people and thus > were born the Jackson Whites. As far as I know, that is only one of the theories. Another theory says that the name 'Jackson Whites' actually stand for ''Jacks and Whites" ('jacks' referring to the term 'freed blacks'). > My brother still lives in that area and he informed that that the Jackson > Whites had recently been classified as the Ramapo Indian tribe. According to their official website at www.ramapoughmountainindians.com they are not yet classified as Indians, but have been trying to convince the Bureau of Indian Affairs that they are Indians since 1978. Strange to see the name of their current chief: Walter 'Silent Wolf' Van Dunk! Finally, a question for Robert Bowman: when did your paternal grandmother die? I have already found that Jersey Dutch was at least spoken fluently untill about 1940 by a few last speakers. And as late as 1964 a James Storms (born in 1888) compiled "A Jersey Dutch Vocabulary" (published by the Pascack Historical So- ciety). He drew upon his own memory of what he had heard as a child and that of other elderly in Bergen County, NJ. Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 23:31:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:31:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Folklorel" 2002.10.16 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: LL-L "Folklore" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] Hi! It was great to hear from Richard on the Bell witch. Sorry I mixed up the free state of Franklin with the free states of Jones and Winston which were civil war phenomena. I found that the counties of Ashe, Watauga, and Allegheny (possibly also Yadkin?) in western North Carolina were so isolated they were sometimes called the Lost Provinces. Major James Grayson organized union volunteers from this region - and I guess that is where I got confused. There is an excellent article on "Music From The Lost Provinces" (Old Time String Bands 1927-1931) on the web as liner notes from a 1997 CD by this title (which I don't have yet), but which is available from County sales, Elderly Instruments and Roots&Rhythm. Grayson's nephew, G.B. became a famous fiddler. I also stumbled on an ad for a new book - Enemies of the Country New Perspectives on Unionists in the Civil War South edited by John C. Inscoe and Robert Kenzer for the University of Georgia press. It contains articles both on the Appalachian unionists and on the Texas German unionists. The haunting old Scots ghost ballad The Wife of Usher's Well survives in North America as "The Lady Gay".It has often been collected in the Appalachians and Ozarks. To show you how easy it is to argue about the presence of supernatural elements, the meaning of the lines: "There was a lady and a lady gay And children she had three She sent them away to a northern school To learn their gramaree" are disputed. Does gramaree mean the innocent "grammar" or the sinister "gramercy" (sorcery?) It is a bit like conspiracy theories - depending on the eye of the beholder. Best wishes to all George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 17 23:35:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 16:35:34 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (09) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ansgar Fehnker Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] > From: erek gass > Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] > > I'm astonished that this "OK" business resurfaces SO often. There are two > possible (and both plausible) explanations for the rise of "OK" (or "okay", > if you prefer). A brief research on the web revealed that there are many explanations. But most widely accepted seems to be the explanation that both the BBC and Merrian Webster agree on. In brief: Just before the 1840 election it became fashionable to use misspelled abbreviations such as "O.K." for "all correct", or "O.W" for "all right". In the 1840 election the Democrats founded an OK Club to support "Old Kinderhook" Martin van Buren, likely with an eye to the popular "O.K". Though it didn't help the candidate, it is believed to have helped "O.K." to become widely used. Regards Ansgar BTW: Here are some URLs I found: http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A704521 http://www.m-w.com/mw/mw/textonly/whist/ok.htm http://www.wordorigins.org/wordoro.htm http://www.zeit.de/stimmts/Sprachliches/1997_36_stimmts.html ---------- From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] At 07:52 AM 10/17/02 -0700, erek gass wrote: >I'm astonished that this "OK" business resurfaces SO often. There are two >possible (and both plausible) explanations for the rise of "OK" (or "okay", >if you prefer). Actually, there's a lot more than two. Here's a reprint of the submission from T. Dale Nicklas of May 13, 1997: Subject: Origin of Okay I once tried to find the origin of okay, without success; generally I found that the origin was considered unknown. My dictionary suggests it comes from the Democratic political organization, the O.K. Club, named for Old Kinderhook, Martin van Buren, which would therefore apparantly make it Lowlandic in origin. However, it is attested several years earlier, so it appears more likely that the choice of name based on van Buren's nickname was reinforced by the already existing okay. My great-aunt Gurtrude told me many years ago that the origin was Choctaw Indian, and that this expression came into English as a result of a communication between an American officer and a Choctaw ally in one of the Indian wars in the late 1700s or early 1800s. This fits with the apparently American origin of the word, and is certainly plausible, as I will describe. Choctaw has a number of particles which may end a sentence. These particles mark a sentence as a certain type of question, or a certain type of command, or a certain type of statement. One of them is _oke_, as it is spelled in Choctaw, which is emphatic. This sounds just like okay, without the y; that is, long e much as in Dutch ee, with a prominent high to mid falling pitch. For example, _Pinsa li tuk_ "I saw him," but _Pinsa li tuk oke!_ "I DID see him." Similarly, _Eho pakna chih_ "We will defeat them," but _Eho pakna chih oke!_ "We WILL defeat them." In particular it can be used to express emphatic assent. Coming as it does at the end of sentences, where it will be followed by a pause, it is often a prominent feature of Choctaw speech; a non-speaker will hear Bababababa oke! Babababababa oke! Babababababa oke! It is not difficult to see how the American officers would pick this up, as it would be a prominent, identifiable, repeated word in a stream of otherwise incomprehensible babble. So maybe it is Choctaw Indian. Dale Nicklas Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: W. Jaap Engelsman Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (03) [E] Beste Lowlanders, (Unfortunately, I do not have the time to translate this into English.) Dit is niet de enige nieuwsgroep waarin telkens weer de vraag naar de geschiedenis van "O.K." opduikt. Er wordt nogal eens gesuggereerd dat de ene theorie niet beter is dan de andere, en dat er nooit behoorlijk onderzoek naar is gedaan. Maar al in 1963-1964 heeft Allen Walker Read hieraan vijf diepgravende artikelen gewijd in "American Speech". Op basis van onder meer die vijf artikelen is de kwestie (zeer kort) samengevat door Ewoud Sanders in zijn "Geoniemenwoordenboek" (Amsterdam 1996). Hieronder geeft ik zijn tekst, met aan het slot de geraadpleegde literatuur, voor wie er het fijne van wil weten. Jaap Engelsman O.K., okay Wie zich verdiept in de herkomst van het woord "okay", trekt een beerput open. Op de bodem daarvan ligt een enorme stapel papier. Er bestaan zeker dertig verschillende verklaringen voor deze uitdrukking. Zij zou afgeleid zijn van het Franse "au quai" 'op de kade', van de Ha?tiaanse havenplaats Aux Cayes, of van de Indianentaal Choctaw, waarin "oke" staat voor 'het is zo'. Er zijn verklaringen die okay afleiden uit het Deens, Duits, Schots en Afrikaans. Ook wordt okay in verband gebracht met allerlei personen met de initialen O.K. Met de Amerikaanse spoorwegbeambte Obadiah Kelly bijvoorbeeld, die ieder pakket dat hij in ontvangst nam met zijn initialen bestempelde. En met Old Keokuk, een indianenhoofdman die enkele verdragen met 'O.K.' ondertekende. Voeg daar nog een flinke stoet O.K.-ers aan toe: Amerikanen, Duitsers, Engelsen en vele anderen, en de chaos is compleet. Gelukkig is er iemand die al deze theorie?n uitgebreid heeft onderzocht. In 1963 en 1964 publiceerde de Amerikaanse hoogleraar Allen Walker Read een reeks van vijf artikelen -- te zamen goed voor 104 dichtbedrukte pagina's -- in het tijdschrift "American Speech". Al voor Read hadden verschillende wetenschappers hun tanden in okay gezet; na Read nog een paar, maar geen enkele theorie is zo overtuigend als die van hem. Wat wil het geval? De inwoners van de Amerikaanse stad Boston gaven zich in de zomer van 1838 met passie over aan het spelen met afkortingen. Het meest geliefd waren O.F.M. voor "Our First Men", N.G. voor "No Go", en S.P. voor "Small Potatoes". Read geeft hiervan een indrukwekkende hoeveelheid voorbeelden uit kranten uit die tijd. Vaak spelde men de woorden ook nog eens opzettelijk verkeerd: zo stond de afkorting O.W. voor "Oll Wright". "Oll wright" wordt beschouwd als de directe voorganger van O.K. Deze afkorting is voor het eerst aangetroffen in de "Boston Morning Post" van 23 maart 1839, in een artikel van Charles Gordon Greene. O.K. stond hier voor "Oll Korrect", een opzettelijke verschrijving van "all correct". Die zomer waaide de afkortingenrage over naar New York. In de herfst van 1839 raakte New Orleans ge?nfecteerd. De afkorting O.K. reisde mee, zoals Read omstandig aantoont. Maar waar blijft nu de plaatsnaam [het is immers een geoniemenwoordenboek, JE]? Die houdt direct verband met Martin Van Buren (1782-1862), indertijd Democratisch president van de Verenigde Staten. Van Buren was in 1837 tot president gekozen. Hij was geboren in Kinderhook, een dorpje in de staat New York dat in de 17de eeuw door Nederlanders was gesticht. Zijn bijnaam luidde 'The Fox of Kinderhook'. De afkorting O.K. voor 'Oll Korrect' was ongetwijfeld in vergetelheid geraakt, als zij niet zo'n voorname plaats had gekregen in de felle politieke campagne van 1840. Whigs (voorlopers van de Republikeinen) en Democraten zochten naar nieuwe slogans en probeerden zich tegen elkaars aanvallen te verweren. De Democraten grepen daarbij terug op een oud recept: zij neutraliseerden scheldnamen door ze tot geuzennaam te verheffen. Behalve voor 'de vos uit Kinderhook' werd president Van Buren uitgemaakt voor 'de tovenaar uit Kinderhook' en 'the Dutchman of Kinderhook' en 'Old Kinderhook'. De Democraten kozen nu Old Kinderhook tot geuzennaam. Op 23 maart 1840 richten zij "The Democratic O.K. club" op, om Van Buren te helpen aan een tweede termijn. O.K. werd een slogan, een strijdkreet. Aanvankelijk werd de betekenis geheim gehouden, maar na twee maanden verklaarden de Democraten dat het stond voor Old Kinderhook. Tegen die tijd hadden de Whigs zelf ook al een verklaring verzonnen. 'O.K. -- Velen vragen zich af wat de betekenis van de mysterieuze letters is', schreef een Whig op 2 april 1840 in de "Daily Express". 'Welnu, het is Arabisch, moet andersom worden gelezen en betekent "kicked out": uit het presidenti?le paleis.' Later kwamen ze met nog allerlei andere verklaringen, zoals: Off to Kinderhook, Orful Katastrophe, Oll Krying en een reeks die begon met Out of... gevolgd door onder andere Kash, Karacter, Kredit, Klothes en Klients. Even hadden de Democraten spijt van hun nieuwe slogan, maar ze besloten eraan vast te houden. De daarop volgende campagne was zo hevig dat de uitdrukking O.K. zich als een olievlek over het land verbreidde. Niet dat dit Martin Van Buren aan de overwinning hielp. 'De Vos van Kinderhook' werd in 1840 overtuigend verslagen door William Henry Harrison. Maar taalkundig gezien was Van Burens campagne een groot succes: O.K. begon aan een zegetocht die uiteindelijk aan het Nederlands de begrippen "okay, ok?, okee, okido" en het wanstaltige "okidoki" zou toevoegen. In 1848 deed Van Buren nog een gooi naar het presidentschap. Toen dat niet lukte, trok hij zich terug in Kinderhook, zijn onbetekenende geboortedorp, dat bijdroeg aan de populariteit van een afkorting die internationaal miljoenen keren per minuut wordt gebezigd. Bronnen: Storfer "W?rter und ihre Schicksale" (1935) 303-306; "American Speech" (verder "Am. Sp.") 7 (1942) 126-128; Mencken "American Language" (4th ed. 1947) 205-208; Allen Walker Read, 'The first stage in the history of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 28.1 (1963) 5-27; Idem, 'The second stage in the history of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 28.2 (1963) 83-102; Idem, 'The folklore of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 29.1 (1964) 5-25; Idem, 'Later stages in the history of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 29.2 (1964) 83-101; Idem, 'Successive revisions in the explanation of "o.k."', in: "Am. Sp." 29.4 (1964) 243-267; "Am. Sp." 31 (1966) 238; 'The etymology of "ok" again', in: "Am. Sp." 40 (1975) 333-335; F.G. Cassidy 'OK is it African?', in: "Am. Sp." 46 (1981) 269-273; Hendrickson "Dict. eponyms" (1985) 239; Rey-Debove "Dictionnaire des anglicismes" (2nd ed. 1990) 640-641; "Merriam-Webster new book of word histories" (1991) 329-331; OED (2nd ed. 1993). ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 03:39:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:39:45 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.17 (10) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.13 (08) [E] >From: Thomas Byro >From: R. F. Hahn >Subject: Language varieties > >Tom, > >If you can point me in the direction of any concrete sources about a Jewish >language variety based on a Lowlands language, please do so by all means, >because I have been looking for such information a long time. I have >searched through all kinds of materials and collections, have read all kinds >of books about Jewish languages (including books in Yiddish and Hebrew), >have asked on this list and on Mendele (a Yiddish-focused list), and I have >never come across any evidence of a Continental-Lowlands-based Jewish >language variety. Hello Ron ! Let me quote from a today's newspaper essay (Ostfriesische Nachrichten, Aurich): ...Dar muss ik an de Markten in Auerk denken. An de Saathoffs, de Go"tzens, Junkmanns, Ju"rgens, Endjers, Wendelings - tell man up. Wat harren de fo"o"r 'n Prooteree togang. Dat kunn ok 'n Plattdu"tschen hast nich verstahn, umdat in ho"r Veehannels-Platt ok 'n bu"lt Utdru"cken van de jo"dsche Hannelslu" mit in weer. Is 'n Jammer, dat dat noit to Papier brocht is. Nu is 't to laat, dat jo"dsch-ostfreesk Hannelsplatt is verga"ten... (When I remember the market-days in Aurich, the ~following several names of former stock-sellers families~ list them - what kind of talk did they. That almost wasn't capable for Low-Saxon-speakers because that stock-sellers- Platt was mixed up with expressions of Jewish tradesmen. It's a pity that this never has been recorded on paper. Now it is too late. The Jewish-East- Frisian trades-Platt is forgotten.) I've heard about this special language used by both Jewish and Non-Jewish stock-sellers from old people also. Besides this there was a kind of Yiddish spoken in Eastern Friesland which wasn't Low Saxon based but heavily mixed. For this some single paper-record exist. Kind regards Holger ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Ik dank Di, Holger. Wenn Du in de Tokumst wat mehr vun de Saak h?ren schullst, w??rd' ik Di groten Dank weten, wenn Du mi dat tost?ern deest. Gr?tens un Kumpelmenten in 't Huus! Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] On Thursday 17 October 2002 17:26, Marco wrote: > Finally, a question for Robert Bowman: > when did your paternal grandmother > die? I have already found that Jersey > Dutch was at least spoken fluently untill > about 1940 by a few last speakers. I would put it around 1953. I was only five or six at the time, not that my memory for dates has gotten any better. I think it was personal conservatism on her part. Her sister, my great-aunt lived quite a bit longer so I was older when we would visit her. She lived sort of a primitive life in a beach cottage in Connecticut after her husband died and was the picture of a crusty old Yankee. I was one of those unexpected births, so my parents were born in 1899 and 1904. My father and uncle retained a few words and phrases. They were a little coy about the translations; when i took German in highschool they would send me off to school with what were probably some choice words. Fortunately, or unfortunately maybe, between the dialect and the idiomatic expressions the Hochdeutsch professor couldn't figure them out. I regret now that I didn't press for more details and speak more to some of the older people in the village, but kids are kids. There may have been some reluctance, too. Although it never really took, many of the place names had been officially changed during the war, as well as some surnames, and there was some degree of trying to distance yourself from anything remotely Germanic. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 03:41:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:41:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.17 (11) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (09) [D/E] At 04:35 PM 10/17/02 -0700, W. Jaap Engelsman wrote: >Dit is niet de enige nieuwsgroep waarin telkens weer de vraag naar de >geschiedenis van "O.K." opduikt. Er wordt nogal eens gesuggereerd dat de ene >theorie niet beter is dan de andere, en dat er nooit behoorlijk onderzoek >naar is gedaan. Maar al in 1963-1964 heeft Allen Walker Read hieraan vijf >diepgravende artikelen gewijd in "American Speech". etc. Sorry, I can only read Dutch, not write or speak it. I was very glad to finally see some substantiation of the Old Kinderhook derivation of Okay, and it shows how the rage of using abbreviations at the time was perhaps the catalyst. Fortunately, this seems to have died out by the time of Lincoln twenty years later, so the world isn't saying, Abee after every sentence. However, I still like the Choctaw language theory, since the word not only sounds the same, it fulfills an almost identical (or at least very, very similar) function. Since this was such a very good article, perhaps someone should take the time to translate it for the non-Dutch readers. Although, one of the great things about this List is NOT getting everything in English and MAKING yourself learn to read some other Lowlands languages, okay? Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 03:43:20 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2002 20:43:20 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.17 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] On Thursday 17 October 2002 17:25, Mike Szelog wrote: > I've never thought of our "accent" as an ancient Anglian dialect. I believe > our speech to be more of an accent than true dialect, though there are > certainly true "dialect" words. Ayuh.. I lived in Dovuh (Dover) NH and Bristah (Bristol) VT, as well as traveling throughout the area and the little looseness with the last syllable really was the only thing different from my upstate NY accent. Perhaps it was just my familiarity, but I don't even recall that many colorful regionalisms. I wouldn't think anyone would have a problem understanding the language. In contrast, I've been in areas of rural Georgia where I had to frequently ask the speakers, especially older people, to repeat themselves and even then had difficulty. I don't know what the roots of the dialect are, but it is well beyond 'southern accent'. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 14:35:31 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 07:35:31 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.16 (06) [E] At 04:25 PM 10/17/02 -0700, Szelog, Mike wrote: >I live in NH and have been to some pretty rural places in the state as well >as Vermont and Maine. > >I've never thought of our "accent" as an ancient Anglian dialect. I believe >our speech to be more of an accent than true dialect, though there are >certainly true "dialect" words. > >One feature of our speech which is usually universally quoted is our >"post-vocalic r deletion"; the preceding vowel tends to become lengthened >and in a two (or more) syllable word, can actually "evolve", if you will, >into a pure glide, either a front or back glide depending on the >surrounding vowels. For example, 'there' can become 'THEY-ah' and 'door' can >become 'DOH-ah'. Syllables in caps indicate stress. > >We do indeed have a very lilting, somewhat sing-song quality to our speech >(if spoken very broadly) and it is VERY difficult for people "from away" to >imitate. People can learn how to properly pronounce a word in our accent, >but when it comes time to say an entire sentence, well, let's just say if >you weren't born here, you'll never quite get it! I'm really not sure where >this sing-song/lilting quality comes from, though I strongly suspect it's a >sort of remnant/carry-over from the very early Irish/Scots settlers in New >England. Generally, the further "Down East" you go (that is, the further to >the north east, particularly in Maine), the broader the accent becomes. >From what I've read, the accent came into the area from the original settlers in Boston, Massachusetts, who everyone pretty much agrees spoke with an East Anglian accent. Note that the original Boston is in Anglia. The characteristics of this speech go far beyond the non-rhotic characteristics, but apply to a fairly distinct way of pronouncing all of the vowels, compared to most other English dialects or accents. To use non-technical terms, what non-Anglian dialects pronounce as cot, sounds like the way an Anglian would say the word spelled cart, whereas they would say the word cot and the non-Anglian speaker would hear "caught". Similarly "lark" <> "lock" and so forth. The "a" is also generally much longer in Anglian. And I'm sure there's many other distinctions. Some scholars relate the accents of East London (Cockney), Australia, New York, Chicago, and all of New England to this dialect. When I say that what I hear the indigenous people speak in the mountains of Vermont is an "ancient" Anglian dialect, I mean that it sounds much less modified than what I hear people in Boston or New York speak. Tell me, Mike, do folks in yoa paht of the country say "shoa" afta practically evry sentence they way they do in Vumont? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 17:58:37 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 10:58:37 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Szelog, Mike Subject: Language Varieties Hi Ed and all, On 10/18/02, Ed wrote: "From what I've read, the accent came into the area from the original settlers in Boston, Massachusetts, who everyone pretty much agrees spoke with an East Anglian accent. Note that the original Boston is in Anglia. The characteristics of this speech go far beyond the non-rhotic characteristics, but apply to a fairly distinct way of pronouncing all of the vowels, compared to most other English dialects or accents. To use non-technical terms, what non-Anglian dialects pronounce as cot, sounds like the way an Anglian would say the word spelled cart, whereas they would say the word cot and the non-Anglian speaker would hear "caught". Similarly "lark" <> "lock" and so forth. The "a" is also generally much longer in Anglian. And I'm sure there's many other distinctions. Some scholars relate the accents of East London (Cockney), Australia, New York, Chicago, and all of New England to this dialect. When I say that what I hear the indigenous people speak in the mountains of Vermont is an "ancient" Anglian dialect, I mean that it sounds much less modified than what I hear people in Boston or New York speak. Tell me, Mike, do folks in yoa paht of the country say "shoa" afta practically evry sentence they way they do in Vumont?" Now I see what you're getting at! Yes, I do agree. We do indeed have a very unique way of pronouncing our vowels. I would have to agree in that our "a" is indeed rather (raahthah) long, particularly if it occurs in a syllable which also undergoes the post-vocalic r deletion! My wife is from western NY (Buffalo area) and when we visit, people get a kick (or should I say they get a "wicked chahge") when I pronounce things like "pop, cot, pot, etc." with the "open o" sound (by this I mean the IPAsymbol indicated by the open o). They seem to say "pahp, caht, paht, etc." - their accent just doesn't seem to want to use this open o sound all that much! Hence the old joke about the Boston Tea "Potty" (most accents in the US pronounce this as "pahty" - exactly the New England pronounciation of "party" - for "potty" we use that open o sound!). Yes, the rural areas of Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine retain the "older" or truer/broader pronounciation whereas places like Boston have a very distinct accent. New York may be Anglian, but it's definately not a New England accent. Southern Massachusetts, and all of Rhode Island and Connecticut though geographically in New England, to my ears anyway, do not speak with a New England accent - it's more like Long Island/New York to me!! Ndaw, we don't use the "showah/shoa" heyah in southin N' Hampshah. Yowah more ahpt to heyah "ayuh". Of course for those who may be wondering, you must realize that we just don't throw all those unused r's away - we add them onto the ends of words ending is "a"and replace the "a" with an 'e' sound, i.e. the "a" tends to get deleted and the "r" becomes vocalic. So, my sistah Linder, went to visit a friend in Florider and decided she might go to Havaner, Cuber, but wahn't shuwah she could drive hah (her) caah theyah, might be some wicked hahd, ayuh" Mike S ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 19:36:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 12:36:07 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson stlev99 at yahoo.com Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (02) [E] Mike et al. It may be an aural perception problem on my part, but I don't find Boston "party" to sound like rest of the nation "potty". (For truth in advertising purposes, I'm an ex-Brooklyn NY boy, but haven't lived there for 35 years; and have a son living in Boston). I won't be able to do this with IPA symbols (because I'm too ignorant), but if we compare: General American: potty Boston: party (Ignoring NY: party which has a "lower" vowel than Boston, i believe), I would say that vowel length will give away the Boston variety every time, though I also feel that the Boston variety has a really "broad" quality, i.e. it is also qualitatively different from "potty". That doesn't make it less of a good joke, though. I enjoyed Mike's comments about "transference of R", since we did that in Brooklyn too. I could never understand why my mother couldn't say "washer" (washuh) but had no problem at all pronouncing Californier. Stan > From: Szelog, Mike > Subject: Language Varieties > Now I see what you're getting at! Yes, I do agree. > We do indeed have a very > unique way of pronouncing our vowels. I would have > to agree in that our "a" > is indeed rather (raahthah) long, particularly if it > occurs in a syllable > which also undergoes the post-vocalic r deletion! > > My wife is from western NY (Buffalo area) and when > we visit, people get a > kick (or should I say they get a "wicked chahge") > when I pronounce things > like "pop, cot, pot, etc." with the "open o" sound > (by this I mean the > IPAsymbol indicated by the open o). They seem to say > "pahp, caht, paht, > etc." - their accent just doesn't seem to want to > use this open o sound all > that much! Hence the old joke about the Boston Tea > "Potty" (most accents in > the US pronounce this as "pahty" - exactly the New > England pronounciation of > "party" - for "potty" we use that open o sound!). ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Mike, Lowlanders, Like Stan (above), I don't consider the Boston pronunciation of "party" to "sound like rest of the nation "potty"." I hear the sequence /ar/ in Boston pronunciation as [a:] (['p_ha:ti] ~ ['p_ha:d_0i]), thus very similar to the common Australian pronunciation -- with a "flat" long "a" sound (like in Standard German _nass_, just much longer). I hear General American English ['p_hQ(:)ti] ~ ['p_hQ(:)d_0i] for "potty" (as opposed to BBC English ['p_hOt_hi] ~ ['p_hOt_hI] and General Australian ['p_hOt_hi]). Like Stan, I hear the "broad" New York pronunciation of /ar/ as having a lower vowel than in Boston (something like (['p_hA:ti] ~ ['p_hA:d_0i]). By the way, the pronunciation of /ar/ in Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) is very much like that of Bostonian and Australian, e.g., _Park_ [p_ha:k] 'park', _Karr_ [k_ha:] 'car', _Mark_ [ma:k] 'mark', _Harm_ [ha:m] 'harm', _Smart_ [sma:t] 'smart', 'pain', _Barg_ [ba:x] 'mountain', 'hill', _Harder_ ['ha:d3`] 'herder', _Lark_ [la:k] 'lark', _Parl_ [p_ha:l] 'pearl', _Part_ [p_ha:t] 'part', 'share', _Karn_ [k_ha:n] 'kernel', 'nucleus'. However, LS does not have liaison while English does, and all words must begin with a consonant. A glottal stop occurs were people perceive a word to begin with a vowel (e.g., _Arm_ [?a:m] 'arm'), and, unlike in English, this glottal stop cannot be deleted (thus may be argued to be phonemic rather than inserted). Interpreting essentially foreign _-a_ as _-er_ (as is done in liaison in non-rhotic English dialects, e.g., "Chiner_or_other_allies") does not happen or at least cannot be proven; e.g., _Trina or Ann_ ['tri:nQ ?O3` ?a.n] 'Catherine or Anne', which in non-rhotic English might be pronounced ['tri:n at rOra.n], hence the perception of "choppiness" in German and LS to speakers of English. Another incidental remark: LS has the same aspiration ([_h]) rule as General American English: aspiration of a voiceless stop applies only in a syllable with primary stress (while in other English dialects it can apply anywhere); hence _party_: LS and Bostonian ['p_ha:ti] vs England English ['p_hQ:t_hi] ~ ['p_hQ:ts_hi]. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron P.S.: Phonetic notation used here: SAMPA http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm, http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 21:21:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 14:21:17 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Szelog, Mike Subject: Language Varieties Hi Stan and all, On 18.OCT.2002, Stan Levinson wrote: "I don't find Boston "party" to sound like rest of the nation "potty". (For truth in advertising purposes, I'm an ex-Brooklyn NY boy, but haven't lived there for 35 years; and have a son living in Boston). I won't be able to do this with IPA symbols (because I'm too ignorant), but if we compare: General American: potty Boston: party (Ignoring NY: party which has a "lower" vowel than Boston, i believe), I would say that vowel length will give away the Boston variety every time, though I also feel that the Boston variety has a really "broad" quality, i.e. it is also qualitatively different from "potty". " Stan, I agree - the Boston accent is quite different from the rest of New England - I can usually tell that a person is (or was) from the Boston area! To my ears, they have a very distinct "o" sound - not quite the IPA "open o", sounds something like the "aw" in 'law', but that's not quite it either - sort of something in between the two. Mike S ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 18 22:54:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2002 15:54:08 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 18.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (04) [E] Mike, Funny you should mention that, since my son, who has lived there for 13 years (since he went off to college), always tells me that he just can't "get" that "o"!!! As such a cosmpolitan city and college town, Boston certainly has so many people who DON'T have the typical accents, but when I'm there, I search out people who talk like that. Sounds more "real", just as when I'm in NY, I love to run into Brooklyn accents. I guess one man's food is another man's poison, but those traditional accents to me are like an ear massage, they just feel SO good! Stan > From: Szelog, Mike > Subject: Language Varieties > > Stan, I agree - the Boston accent is quite different > from the rest of New > England - I can usually tell that a person is (or > was) from the Boston area! > To my ears, they have a very distinct "o" sound - > not quite the IPA "open > o", sounds something like the "aw" in 'law', but > that's not quite it either > - sort of something in between the two. > > Mike S ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (03) [E] Ron, Interesting comparing it with Australian. I agree, except that I think the Australian "a" is even higher than the Boston "a" before "r". In general vowels written "a" in Australian seem to be higher than corresponding American vowels, so that the "a" /ae/ of words like, say, "cat", is almost more like the "e" of "end". Like to hear what the Aussies say, but my impression is that in general, if we think in terms of a kind of old fashioned vowel "inverted pyramid", that the Australian pyramid would be shorter on the open/close axis as well as on the front/back axis, with an offset closer to the front, i.e. the Aussie pyramid would fit inside the American pyramid, but be off-center favoring the "front" part. Actually, since this DOES count as lowlands, what do you folks think about Aussie vowels in general? It's my contention that there are NO "back" vowels in Australian. In fact the Australian realization of the long "o" (boat) sounds like it has every vowel known to man in it--except "o", which sounds like an exaggeration of typical British (sorry I don't know British dialect boundaries, but I guess I mean something close to normal education London). What's curious is that the Aussie "u" of "food" actually sounds kind of Irish to me... isn't that just like the Aussies. Really, Oz just has the coolest vowels... Stan > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language varieties > > Mike, Lowlanders, > > Like Stan (above), I don't consider the Boston > pronunciation of "party" to > "sound like rest of the nation "potty"." I hear the > sequence /ar/ in Boston > pronunciation as [a:] (['p_ha:ti] ~ ['p_ha:d_0i]), > thus very similar to the > common Australian pronunciation -- with a "flat" > long "a" sound (like in > Standard German _nass_, just much longer). I hear > General American English > ['p_hQ(:)ti] ~ ['p_hQ(:)d_0i] for "potty" (as > opposed to BBC English > ['p_hOt_hi] ~ ['p_hOt_hI] and General Australian > ['p_hOt_hi]). Like Stan, I > hear the "broad" New York pronunciation of /ar/ as > having a lower vowel than > in Boston (something like (['p_hA:ti] ~ > ['p_hA:d_0i]). > > By the way, the pronunciation of /ar/ in Northern > Lowlands Saxon (Low > German) is very much like that of Bostonian and > Australian, e.g., _Park_ > [p_ha:k] 'park', _Karr_ [k_ha:] 'car', _Mark_ [ma:k] > 'mark', _Harm_ [ha:m] > 'harm', _Smart_ [sma:t] 'smart', 'pain', _Barg_ > [ba:x] 'mountain', 'hill', > _Harder_ ['ha:d3`] 'herder', _Lark_ [la:k] 'lark', > _Parl_ [p_ha:l] 'pearl', > _Part_ [p_ha:t] 'part', 'share', _Karn_ [k_ha:n] > 'kernel', 'nucleus'. > > However, LS does not have liaison while English > does, and all words must > begin with a consonant. A glottal stop occurs were > people perceive a word > to begin with a vowel (e.g., _Arm_ [?a:m] 'arm'), > and, unlike in English, > this glottal stop cannot be deleted (thus may be > argued to be phonemic > rather than inserted). Interpreting essentially > foreign _-a_ as _-er_ (as > is done in liaison in non-rhotic English dialects, > e.g., > "Chiner_or_other_allies") does not happen or at > least cannot be proven; > e.g., _Trina or Ann_ ['tri:nQ ?O3` ?a.n] 'Catherine > or Anne', which in > non-rhotic English might be pronounced > ['tri:n at rOra.n], hence the perception > of "choppiness" in German and LS to speakers of > English. > > Another incidental remark: LS has the same > aspiration ([_h]) rule as General > American English: aspiration of a voiceless stop > applies only in a syllable > with primary stress (while in other English dialects > it can apply anywhere); > hence _party_: LS and Bostonian ['p_ha:ti] vs > England English ['p_hQ:t_hi] ~ > ['p_hQ:ts_hi]. > > Cheers! > Reinhard/Ron > > P.S.: Phonetic notation used here: SAMPA > http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm, > http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/x-sampa.htm ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Stan, I basically agree with you that the Australian phonetic output of /ar/ is somewhat higher and more fronted than the Bostonian one. However, there are many shades of Australian (and probably several of Bostonian), and some of them go farther on the scale than others. Most people I know divide them into "broad Australian" and "educated Australian" (the latter predominating in the electronic media). The /ar/ -> [a:] sound tends to be somewhat higher and more fronted ("fletter") in the former than in the latter, but it is not quite [?:] or [E:] either. What I had really meant to say was that the phonetic realizations of /ar/ in Bostonian, general New England, Australian and New Zealand dialects are similar to each other, in the same ballpark as opposed to most other dialects of English (including those of New York), and Lowlands Saxon (LS) fits in with them. > Actually, since this DOES count as lowlands, what do > you folks think about Aussie vowels in general? It's > my contention that there are NO "back" vowels in > Australian. In fact the Australian realization of the > long "o" (boat) sounds like it has every vowel known > to man in it--except "o", which sounds like an > exaggeration of typical British (sorry I don't know > British dialect boundaries, but I guess I mean > something close to normal education London). What's > curious is that the Aussie "u" of "food" actually > sounds kind of Irish to me... isn't that just like the > Aussies. Really, Oz just has the coolest vowels... Again, I generally agree with you, but at the same time remind you that there is dialectal and sociolectal variation, and most people outside Australia are not quite aware of that. If I had to instruct anyone in how to start putting on an Australian accent (without being able to pull it off myself) I would begin with suggesting to "try and speak mostly in the front of your mouth". Yes, it is almost as though the entire vowel allophone inventory has been shifted toward the front and also a bit up. As in many dialects of Southern England, the output of /oo/ as in _go_ or _boat_ is something like [e.}] (ending with a central, slightly rounded vowel or glide, very similar in many Northern Lowlands Saxon dialects). Yes, the Australian /uu/ realization (e.g., "too") seems to be something like [}:] (like long _u_ in some Swedish varieties), a sound in between [u:] and [y:] and with little rounding, almost [1:]. I hear the short /u/ (e.g., "good") pronounced with little or no rounding, almost [1] (central, between [I] and [W]). However, there do seem to be some back vowels anyway, such as [O] (e.g., "pot"), [o:] (e.g., "thought"), and [AI] ~ [QI] ~ [OI] (e.g., "die," often slightly rounded, as opposed to [aI], e.g., "day"). Much of this seems to apply to New Zealand varieties as well. The only feature of NZ "accents" that to my ear sounds special (from my pseudo-Australian viewpoint) is that the short /e/, as in "bed," is pronounced even more frontal and higher than its Australian counterpart, something like [e], approaching [I]. I hear a similar sound in some South African English dialects. Cheers [tS_hIe.z]! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 00:06:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:06:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.16 (01) [E] As a footnote to the OK discussion, this appeared in the 18 Oct New York Times: "October 18, 2002 By DOUGLAS MARTIN Allen Read, the Expert of 'O.K.,' Dies at 96 Allen Walker Read, a playful prospector of the American tongue who hunted down the source of words like Dixie and Podunk, phrases like the almighty dollar and, most famous of all, those ubiquitous initials, O.K., died on Wednesday at his home in Manhattan. He was 96. A longtime English professor at Columbia University , he demolished a host of theories about the origin of O.K., an Americanism adopted by virtually every language and one of the first words spoken on the Moon. The original source was not a misspelling by Andrew Jackson or a Choctaw Indian word or a superior brand of Army biscuit or a variety of other possibilities. Rather, its first known published appearance with its current meaning came in The Boston Morning Post on March 23, 1839: "o.k. - all correct." It appeared at a time when initials, preferably of misspelled words, like "oll korrect," were the fad. "K.Y." meant "no use" ("know yuse"), but that did not catch on. Mr. Read solved the "O.K." mystery in a series of articles in American Speech in 1963 and 1964, causing "much gnashing of teeth by other etymologists, who had themselves lusted for the laurels of `O.K.,' " according to an article by Michelle Stacey in The New Yorker in 1989. " ---------- From: Theo Homan Subject: etymology: could YOU help me? Etymology: could YOU help me? Are there any kind persons between us that would think about etymology-connections/origins of these Dutch words: 1] paling 2] puin 3] koorts. Conc. 1: Does 'paling' also occur in [orig.] saxon? ['Aal' is common-germanic.] Conc. 3: Especially 'koorts' has my warm interest. This word also occurs in saxon. [There is an overall tendency to use for 'koorts' a word that expresses 'heat']. vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Theo, I have never come across *_Pa(h)ling_ ~ *_Po(h)ling_ for 'eel' in Lowlands Saxon (Low German) and also did not find it in any dialect-specific dialect dictionaries at hand. However, I would not be surprised if it did exist in some dialects. I would probably assume that the word is related to _paal_ 'pole', 'stake' (which does exist in LS), either because of the shape of the creature or because eel traps tend to be anchored at stakes or poles. I cannot think of any LS cognate of Dutch _koorts_ 'fever'. The usual word is _Fever_ ['fE.Iv3`] (pronounced like BBC English "favour") ~ _Feber_ ['fE.Iv3`] (neut., uncountable). It can also be referred to as _Fresen_ ['frE.Isn=] ~ _Freren_ ~ _Freern_ [frE.I3`n] ~ _Frerent_ ~ _Freernt_ [frE.I3`nt] (neut., uncountable, lit. "freezing," i.e., feeling cold due to fever). A bout of fever may be referred to as _Schuur_ [Su:3`] ("shower," masc. ~ neut., pl. _Schuren_ ~ _Schuurn_ [Su:3`n]), the same word being used for a rain shower (not a shower in the bathroom, which is _Duusch_). I cannot think of a LS cognate of _puin_ 'rubble' either. I would expect *_Puun_. Sorry ... I wasn't any help, can only express my solidarity with your sense of mission to get to the bottom of these mystery words. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 19 23:24:02 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:24:02 -0700 Subject: No subject Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E] (Stan's reply below) From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties I basically agree with you that the Australian phonetic output of /ar/ is somewhat higher and more fronted than the Bostonian one. However, there are many shades of Australian (and probably several of Bostonian), and some of them go farther on the scale than others. Most people I know divide them into "broad Australian" and "educated Australian" (the latter predominating in the electronic media). The /ar/ -> [a:] sound tends to be somewhat higher and more fronted ("fletter") in the former than in the latter, but it is not quite [?:] or [E:] either. What I had really meant to say was that the phonetic realizations of /ar/ in Bostonian, general New England, Australian and New Zealand dialects are similar to each other, in the same ballpark as opposed to most other dialects of English (including those of New York), and Lowlands Saxon (LS) fits in with them. ... Again, I generally agree with you, but at the same time remind you that there is dialectal and sociolectal variation, and most people outside Australia are not quite aware of that. If I had to instruct anyone in how to start putting on an Australian accent (without being able to pull it off myself) I would begin with suggesting to "try and speak mostly in the front of your mouth". Yes, it is almost as though the entire vowel allophone inventory has been shifted toward the front and also a bit up. As in many dialects of Southern England, the output of /oo/ as in _go_ or _boat_ is something like [e.}] (ending with a central, slightly rounded vowel or glide, very similar in many Northern Lowlands Saxon dialects). Yes, the Australian /uu/ realization (e.g., "too") seems to be something like [}:] (like long _u_ in some Swedish varieties), a sound in between [u:] and [y:] and with little rounding, almost [1:]. I hear the short /u/ (e.g., "good") pronounced with little or no rounding, almost [1] (central, between [I] and [W]). However, there do seem to be some back vowels anyway, such as [O] (e.g., "pot"), [o:] (e.g., "thought"), and [AI] ~ [QI] ~ [OI] (e.g., "die," often slightly rounded, as opposed to [aI], e.g., "day"). Much of this seems to apply to New Zealand varieties as well. The only feature of NZ "accents" that to my ear sounds special (from my pseudo-Australian viewpoint) is that the short /e/, as in "bed," is pronounced even more frontal and higher than its Australian counterpart, something like [e], approaching [I]. I hear a similar sound in some South African English dialects. Ron, Thanks for the analysis. One thing that I have picked up from (non-linguistic specialist) Australians is that they tend to say that they cannot tell where a person is from in Australia by accent. I find this interested because you can hear differences (from my brief experience in Oz) in preference of [a] vs. [ae], and also I just had a kind of intangible different feel to the sound of South Australians vs. NSW (my only experience). Regarding the back vowels, yeah, I didn't even think about the AI/OI and O (pot). I guess our inverted vowel triangle, aside from being moved a bit forward, can be pulled a bit out of shape to include back vowels that tend toward the low side. As for NZ vowels, I've seen Australian writing portraying a NZ speaker and writing "bist" for "best", so I guess they perceive the same thing. I suppose you've heard the old joke, re Aussie English, of WWII vintage: the American GI is in a hospital staffed by Aussie nurses. The scared GI asks "Nurse, have I come here to die?" Answers the nurse cheerily (I said she's Australian!!!), "Why no, love, you came here yesterday." Stan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties G'die, Stan, Lowlanders! Stan: > One thing that I have picked > up from (non-linguistic specialist) Australians is > that they tend to say that they cannot tell where a > person is from in Australia by accent. Yeah, I've heard that too, but I've also heard other people claim that they can *always* tell a "Sydneysider," a "Darwinian," etc. I think that, like everywhere in the world, regional differences are fading away and there are going to be more sociolects than regional dialects. > I suppose you've heard the old joke, re Aussie > English, of WWII vintage: the American GI is in a > hospital staffed by Aussie nurses. The scared GI asks > "Nurse, have I come here to die?" Answers the nurse > cheerily (I said she's Australian!!!), "Why no, love, > you came here yesterday." Yes, that's a good one. Here's a real-life one, between two guys (roommates) I knew in an international setting, one from the U.S. and the other from Australia. In the morning, the American roommate opened the curtain, a daily ritual to help the other guy wake up. The Australian asked, "Is it late ("lite") yet?", and the American said, "Open your eyes, man!" Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 00:10:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 17:10:42 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.19 (05) [A/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: johnno55 at excite.com Subject: LL-L "Afrikaans" 2002.10.10 (03) [A/E] Groete aan Ron, Susan my mede taalgenote uit Zimbabwe, Marco en al die ander laelanders. Eerstens moet ek apologie aanteken vir my versuim om onmiddelik op julle navraag oor Zimbabwiese Afrikaans te re-ageer. Ek was met vakansie en het nou so pas teruggekeer -'n vakansie nogal sonder 'n komper of selfs die internet. Ek het Afrikaanssprekende boere in die Chimanimani en Melsetter areas ontmoet wat met die Moodie-trek van 1894 die destydse Rhodesi? binne gekom het asook ander wat in die hoofstede woonagtig was. Daar was ook 'n groot gemeenskap Afrikaansspekendes wat in die jare na die Tweede W?reld oorlog ge-immigreer het. In hulle geval het hulle Afrikaans op skool geneem en het hulle baie keer uit dele van Suid-Afrika gekom waar Afrikaans die hoof voertaal is. Hulle spraakeienskappe sal dus die gebruike van hulle gebiede van afkoms weerspie?l. For the readers who perhaps are interested and who are not fully au fait with Afrikaans I shall give my observations in English with Afrikaans examples. I am not a liguistic expert so that most of the information I have is anecdotal rather than following scientific methodologies. Firstly since the initial influx of Afrikaans speakers into Zimbabwe took place less than 120 years ago the changes have been the result of pressures from the other languages spoken rather than natural changes through the effluxion of time. My first reaction to hearing second and third generation speakers was that the speakers sounded like English language users speaking Afrikaans. Though not true in all cases the younger generation had moved further than their elders. This is a natural consequence of English being the primary language of education (especially in the then Rhodesia) as well as business. Many "Anglisismes" also crept in - Ek gaan op vakansie ( ek gaan met vakansie) I am going on vacation. /> Die kamer is goed opgelig (die kamer is goed verlig) - the room is well illuminated (lit up). In this case the Zimbabwean usage would mean that the room has been lifted up. Ek kom huistoe was used often - ek kom tuis far less often and somtimes ek kom by die huis (sic). The last example sounds strange as it lacks the word "aan" at the end of the sentance to make it understandable even if it is not usual. . I seldom heard the use of Aanstaande for example - aanstaande week gaan ek weg became in most cases volgende week gaan ek weg was used. Although all these examples are also found in the Afrikaans spoken in predominately English speaking areas in South Africa. English words were frequently substituted for commonly used Afrikaans words in speaking - often the Afrikaans word was actually not known. This occured several times when I acted as a part time interpreter in the High Court. In one instance it lead to an amusing situation where the judge who came from South Africa saying to me in Afrikaans "gebruik die Engelse woord - hy weet nie wat die Afrikaanse woord is nie". This applied especially in instances where technical terms were used. Shona words were also used - "pap" when it refered to maizemeal porridge was "sadza", "moenie hom hinder nie - moenie hom shupa nie." This was not unique to Afrikaans speakers as in colloquial English these same words were used by most English first language speakers. The lingua franca of the Mines "Fanagalo" or "Chilapalapa" contributed mushi for good (muhle in the Nguni (Zulu) language) and "shut-in" for dense bush country (the back of beyond). It can perhaps be compared to some of the language used by the playwrite Bredero in a work such as "De Spaansche Brabander" where certain characters used French words or at least words "borrowed and/or modified" from French in their speech. Marco I am sure could throw some light on this. In pronounciation the diphthong "ui" merged with "y" and "ei" so that all sounded identical (this is also true for some areas in South Africa) ruis reis and rys all sounded identical (sounding like "race" in English) as did fluit and vlyt. In Afrikaans the "ui" has a rounder sound the "ei" or "y". In some cases verbs obeyed English grammar not the customary Afrikaans use. The word "is" can be used to denote a passive past tense in Afrikaans - Ek weet nie waar hy gebore is nie - I do not know where he was born - becomes Ek weet nie waar hy gebore was nie I hope my feeble efforts are of interest and perhaps someone can cast more light on this by giving formal research done possibly through he University of Zimbabwe which did have a faculty of Afrikaans/Nederlands. John le Grange ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Afrikaans John, Lowlanders, Now that's the stuff from which "Lowlands Talk" Afrikaans sub-blurbs are made, stuff even most Afrikaans speakers would love to read about. ;) Cheers! Reinhard/Ron (http://www.lowlands-l.net) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 19 23:33:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:33:05 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.19 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E] (Stan's reply below) From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties I basically agree with you that the Australian phonetic output of /ar/ is somewhat higher and more fronted than the Bostonian one. However, there are many shades of Australian (and probably several of Bostonian), and some of them go farther on the scale than others. Most people I know divide them into "broad Australian" and "educated Australian" (the latter predominating in the electronic media). The /ar/ -> [a:] sound tends to be somewhat higher and more fronted ("fletter") in the former than in the latter, but it is not quite [?:] or [E:] either. What I had really meant to say was that the phonetic realizations of /ar/ in Bostonian, general New England, Australian and New Zealand dialects are similar to each other, in the same ballpark as opposed to most other dialects of English (including those of New York), and Lowlands Saxon (LS) fits in with them. ... Again, I generally agree with you, but at the same time remind you that there is dialectal and sociolectal variation, and most people outside Australia are not quite aware of that. If I had to instruct anyone in how to start putting on an Australian accent (without being able to pull it off myself) I would begin with suggesting to "try and speak mostly in the front of your mouth". Yes, it is almost as though the entire vowel allophone inventory has been shifted toward the front and also a bit up. As in many dialects of Southern England, the output of /oo/ as in _go_ or _boat_ is something like [e.}] (ending with a central, slightly rounded vowel or glide, very similar in many Northern Lowlands Saxon dialects). Yes, the Australian /uu/ realization (e.g., "too") seems to be something like [}:] (like long _u_ in some Swedish varieties), a sound in between [u:] and [y:] and with little rounding, almost [1:]. I hear the short /u/ (e.g., "good") pronounced with little or no rounding, almost [1] (central, between [I] and [W]). However, there do seem to be some back vowels anyway, such as [O] (e.g., "pot"), [o:] (e.g., "thought"), and [AI] ~ [QI] ~ [OI] (e.g., "die," often slightly rounded, as opposed to [aI], e.g., "day"). Much of this seems to apply to New Zealand varieties as well. The only feature of NZ "accents" that to my ear sounds special (from my pseudo-Australian viewpoint) is that the short /e/, as in "bed," is pronounced even more frontal and higher than its Australian counterpart, something like [e], approaching [I]. I hear a similar sound in some South African English dialects. Ron, Thanks for the analysis. One thing that I have picked up from (non-linguistic specialist) Australians is that they tend to say that they cannot tell where a person is from in Australia by accent. I find this interested because you can hear differences (from my brief experience in Oz) in preference of [a] vs. [ae], and also I just had a kind of intangible different feel to the sound of South Australians vs. NSW (my only experience). Regarding the back vowels, yeah, I didn't even think about the AI/OI and O (pot). I guess our inverted vowel triangle, aside from being moved a bit forward, can be pulled a bit out of shape to include back vowels that tend toward the low side. As for NZ vowels, I've seen Australian writing portraying a NZ speaker and writing "bist" for "best", so I guess they perceive the same thing. I suppose you've heard the old joke, re Aussie English, of WWII vintage: the American GI is in a hospital staffed by Aussie nurses. The scared GI asks "Nurse, have I come here to die?" Answers the nurse cheerily (I said she's Australian!!!), "Why no, love, you came here yesterday." Stan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties G'die, Stan, Lowlanders! Stan: > One thing that I have picked > up from (non-linguistic specialist) Australians is > that they tend to say that they cannot tell where a > person is from in Australia by accent. Yeah, I've heard that too, but I've also heard other people claim that they can *always* tell a "Sydneysider," a "Darwinian," etc. I think that, like everywhere in the world, regional differences are fading away and there are going to be more sociolects than regional dialects. > I suppose you've heard the old joke, re Aussie > English, of WWII vintage: the American GI is in a > hospital staffed by Aussie nurses. The scared GI asks > "Nurse, have I come here to die?" Answers the nurse > cheerily (I said she's Australian!!!), "Why no, love, > you came here yesterday." Yes, that's a good one. Here's a real-life one, between two guys (roommates) I knew in an international setting, one from the U.S. and the other from Australia. In the morning, the American roommate opened the curtain, a daily ritual to help the other guy wake up. The Australian asked, "Is it late ("lite") yet?", and the American said, "Open your eyes, man!" Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 19 23:35:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:35:42 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.19 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.16 (04) [E] > From: Veturlidi Oskarsson > Subject: Old Frisian > > Hello, > > I am new on the list and don't know what you have been discussing, so I > might be asking something that already has been answered. I wanted to > ask > if anybody could tell me about the sources to Old Frisian. In > dictionaries, > the period of Old Frisian is usually 1270-1500. But are there no older > sources to the Frisian language than from the late 13th century? > > Greetings, > > Veturlidi Oskarsson, University of Uppsala Dear Veturlidi Perhaps this is a more complex problem that one might imagine. The frisians were a well known people long before the 13th century. But they did not alwaeys live in the same area's as they do now. Shouldn't we look in other regions to find more? Greatings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 19 23:38:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 19 Oct 2002 16:38:56 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.19 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 19.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (07) [E] Marco: I would like to add that I discussed the theory as to Jackson White origins presented by the lecturer of the historical society with a Jackson White aquaintance of mine as we were sipping Walter Fahloh's powerful schnapps. This would have been around 1975, the year before I left the area. Andy (last name omitted to protect the guilty) felt that the theory was a lot of nonsense. However, he had no alternate theory to propose. Although I had my doubts about it, I returned to acceptance of the theory in spite of many doubts I had had. My doubts hinged on the fact that 200 prostitutes would have had no difficulty in finding work in New York, which even then was a wild city ( an article I had read in a newspaper stated that even in New Amsterdam times, there were more bars than churches). And then too, I reasoned that the lecturer must have done her homework and have researched the question thoroughly. Maybe not though. Maybe she gave vent to the same prejudices felt by the general population of the area. I would like to add that in the lowland areas, Dutch names are extremely frequent. I went to High School with many. No one though assumes though that someone is a Jackson White merely because their name is Vreeland. That distinction is reserved to the people who live in the mountains or who moved from there.Making joking comments about the Jackson Whites was commonplace in the area but I don't recall anyone with a Dutch surname doing so. I wonder if the name and concept of Jackson Whites is not imposed by the outsiders who have moved into the area who were not pleased with the obvious mixed race status of the mountain people? In other words, that the Jackson Whites were not a separate people but were part of the continuum of Dutch decended people? Jackson White status haunted people in the area and limited where they could live, for eaxample. Mike Milligan moved down from the mountains years ago and opened a successful construction business but he was limited as to where he could buy a house in spite of the fact that he was quite affluent. He bought a house in the area of the former Camp Midvale (which I used to manage). The communists and former communists of the area were much more tolerant than the typical population of the area. ( Camp Midvale is another interesting story, Opened by German Naturfreunde in the early 20th century, the fight between the Nazi Bund and the German communists in the 1930's, the communists winning and kicking out the Nazis, etc.) Regarding Jackson Whites having six fingers, there is some truth to that. Squeek deGroat introduced me to his cousin, who unbidden showed me his hands. There was a definite stub of a sixth finger next to his little finger. He said that most people have them surgically removed but that he decided to keep them. Tom Thomas and Robert, thanks for the information! Thomas wrote: > I lived in Ringwood in northern New Jersey for years. I used to know many > of the Jackson Whites personally. Although family names like vanZutphen, > Onderdonk, deGroat, vanDunk, etc. predominate, I never came across anyione > who spoke other than English. But their population ranges through some > pretty wild areas, so who knows. Many of the ones I knew made a living in > questionable ways, such as "jacking" deer (I know a bar in Wanaque with an > enormous meat locker where one can sell such meat). They are universally > proud of their ability to shoot and to hunt. I already thought it would be very questionable that these people would still speak a language that had died out almost a century earlier in all neighbouring valleys. Nevertheless there should be a whole chapter about the language of the Jackson Whites in a book called 'The Ramapo Mountain People' by a David S. Cohen. That should be worth checking out, since I found some remarks on the internet as "In New Jersey there is a language that is a version of Flemish mixed with English, plus a few animal & plant terms from Lenape-Delaware Indian, called 'Jersey Dutch.' The variant spoken by the Mountain People is called 'n?xer d?uts,' that is, 'Negro Dutch' (see Cohen, "The Ramapo Moun- tain People," Rutgers Univ Press, 1974, pp 142- 143)". I take it that traces of this Jersey Dutch dialect can still be found in the speech of the Jackson Whites. > I attended a lecture at Ringwood Manor, given by the local historical > society years ago on the origin of the Jackson Whites. According to the > lecturer, the name originated with a man named Jackson, who got as contract > to supply 200 prostitutes to the English army in New York during the > revolutionary war. He got some prostitutes to volunteer off the streets of > london but got nowhere the total that he needed. So, he started kidnapping > women, and brought his total up to 100. For the remainder, he bught 100 > slaves and set off for New York. > The women were kept in a stockade and were abandoned when the English lost > the war and had to break out. Everywhere they went they were shooed off by > farmers with guns, so they made their way across the Hudson River to > northern New Jersy, an area that was inhabbited by Dutch bandits who had > intermarried with Indians. They intermarried with these people and thus > were born the Jackson Whites. As far as I know, that is only one of the theories. Another theory says that the name 'Jackson Whites' actually stand for ''Jacks and Whites" ('jacks' referring to the term 'freed blacks'). > My brother still lives in that area and he informed that that the Jackson > Whites had recently been classified as the Ramapo Indian tribe. According to their official website at www.ramapoughmountainindians.com they are not yet classified as Indians, but have been trying to convince the Bureau of Indian Affairs that they are Indians since 1978. Strange to see the name of their current chief: Walter 'Silent Wolf' Van Dunk! Finally, a question for Robert Bowman: when did your paternal grandmother die? I have already found that Jersey Dutch was at least spoken fluently untill about 1940 by a few last speakers. And as late as 1964 a James Storms (born in 1888) compiled "A Jersey Dutch Vocabulary" (published by the Pascack Historical So- ciety). He drew upon his own memory of what he had heard as a child and that of other elderly in Bergen County, NJ. Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 22:05:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:05:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.20 (01) [|D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] Hi! These three words ( puin koorts and paling , have "no etymological explanation" according too my etymological dictionary.. (Koorts might be connected with a word in sanscrit ....) ( j. de vries/ f de Tollennaere)(Het spectrum.. isbn 90 274 2947 2) However it's not Paal...nothing to do with paling, (and palindrome is not the dream of an eel either.) well, and they are typical Dutch words. Western Dutch. (They might come from a substratum even, like for instance the word schaap is. The Germanic word for schaap, sheep, being ewe, ooi.) Very interesting subject! Wim [Verdoold] wkv at home.nl zwolle netherlands. ---------- From: elsie zinsser Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] Haai all, Theo, in Afrikaans the 'paling' is a kind of fish found in inland lakes. It is not an eel here but a nasty looking bony fish with sharp teeth. I always suspected that the word relates to *aling or 'eel'. "puin" is 'rubble' and koors (koorts) means "fever" in Afrikaans. I cannot imagine that the three words were connected at any stage. Groete Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology Beste Theo (and other Li?glanners) Here's some etymological information (< Jan de Vries) concerning , 1) PALING : znw. m., mnl. p?linc, paellinc, ook paeldinc, paeldrinc. Het woord is uitsluitend nl. en blijkens de uitgang (zie : bokking) een afl. van een woord paal. - Mag men wegens de vorm van een dikke paling aan overdrachtelijke betekenis van paal 1 denken ? Moelijker kan men een afl. van het eenmaal voorkomende mnl. pail m. 'poel, plas' aannemen, dat met poel zou kunnen samenhangen. De vorm paeldinc moet wel als de oudste beschouwd worden, want de Palingdijk, een gracht tussen Bourbourg en Grevelingen, heeft als oude vormen Palathingadic (1111) en Paledhingedic (1123). 2) PUIN : znw. o. eerst na Kiliaen bekend, een specifiek nnl. woord, vooral in gebruik in Noord-Holland bezuiden het IJ, Utrecht, N-W. Gelderl. en Overijsel en daarom wel als jonge formatie te beschouwen. Verband met oe. punian 'stampen' (ne. pound) is daarom niet waarschijnlijk. De herkomst van het woord is onbekend. 3) KOORTS : znw. v., mnl. corts, coorts, curts, m. (zelden) en laat-mnl. cortse, curtse v., mnd. korts. De beperkte verbreiding van het woord maakt het zeer twijfelachtig, of men het verbinden mag met oi. jvarati (heeft koorts), jvara- 'koorts, smart' (IEW 479). They are intruiging words indeed, especially "koorts". In Brabant and Flanders "kortsen" or "kortses" (always plural ! and a short 'o') is the usual form. But apparently "kortsen" (pronounced k?tsen in Brabantish) have not always been associated uniquely with 'heat', because Kiliaen testifies that in the 16th century Brabantish "koud wee" used to be a synonym of "kortsen". On the other hand there are words like "ne kaa" (B), "een verkoudheid" (D), "a cold" (E) that seem to blame chilly feelings for catching a cold. Knowledge of pre-scientific medicinal skills seems necessary, I think. Maybe it's the idea of suffering from brief spells of overheating, interspersed with short periods of feeling cold that gave birth to the word. Hence it would have to be derived from "short" (E), "kort" (D). It's not entirely impossible that an adjective becomes a substantive, because in Brabantish we also have the word "k?t" (probably short for "kort gekapt"), "kort" (D) which signifies "kopvlees, zult" (D), "fromage de cochon" in French and "hoofdflakke" in Flemish, meat being made from the head of a pig or a cow that is often eaten with some mustard. Regarding "paling" (D) I seem to remember that I once heard the word "peurling" being used in Flanders for an eel. This word can be derived from the verb "peuren" which means "to dig in mud with a stick in order to make the eels come out". Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Luc wrote above: > Regarding "paling" (D) I seem to remember that I once heard the word "peurling" > being used in Flanders for an eel. > This word can be derived from the verb "peuren" which means "to dig in mud with > a stick in order to make the eels come out". Interesting! I assumed this Flemish verb _peuren_ (/p??r-/) is a cognate of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _purren_ (/pur-/ [p_hU3`-]), Eastern Friesland dialect _puren_ ~ _puurn_ (/puur-/ [p_hu:3`-]), which means (intrans.) 'to stoke', 'to poke' (usually with a stick or such in dirt, sand, mud, etc.) and (trans.) 'to spur on', 'to goad on', 'to provoke', 'to pester', 'to hound'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 22:10:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:10:26 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (02) [|E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language Varieties Hi Ron and all You wrote: "Much of this seems to apply to New Zealand varieties as well. The only feature of NZ "accents" that to my ear sounds special (from my pseudo-Australian viewpoint) is that the short /e/, as in "bed," is pronounced even more frontal and higher than its Australian counterpart, something like [e], approaching [I]. I hear a similar sound in some South African English dialects." This closing of 'e' has also had the unique effect in NZ of pushing the 'i' to a more centralised position, which can be written as an allophone of schwa, as it's in complementary distribution. Lots of Australians thus laugh at NZ pronunciation of 'six' as to them it sounds like 'sex'. My NZ cousins all have this feature in their speech, and it's (for me) the best marker of distinguishing NZ from Australian accents. In a similar way I'll always listen to Canadians pronunciation of 'light' to distinguish them from Americans. Gary ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: Dear all, I've come into this one a little late, as usual. Apologies. Ron wrote: "Yeah, I've heard that too, but I've also heard other people claim that they can *always* tell a "Sydneysider," a "Darwinian," etc. I think that, like everywhere in the world, regional differences are fading away and there are going to be more sociolects than regional dialects." I would concur to a certain degree. My wife was born in Sydney to a West Australian mother and an Irish father and was subsequently raised in Tasmania and Perth. My mother-in-law has (what I consider) a very strong West Australian bush accent indeed, whereas Ruth has a delocalised "General Australian accent" (although she would say it was a New South Wales accent), something that appears to be making great strides at the expense of local accents and dialects, probably because of the media. I definitely noticed different regional accents when I was in Australia (I returned to Ireland a month ago), but the dichotomy is in my opinion urban/rural to each state or territory, rather than class- or education-defined as Ron suggests. (Indeed, many rural Australians are amongst the richest and most well educated of all Australians.) As an outsider in Australia who came into contact with nearly as many New Zealanders and South Africans as Aussies, I felt that the New Zealand and South African accents were closer to each other than either was to the Australian accent, due in part I suppose to their clipped vowels (cluppt voewuls). Underneath, though, Australian, NZ and South African voices all seem to share a similar sound to British or Irish ears... a fossilised Southern English accent from the early 1800s, when all three countries were first settled by English speakers, perhaps? In any case I tend to disagree with Ron about sociolects. Within a globalised world I feel that regional accents within a country are losing ground to a single "national" accent (i.e., General Australian, General New Zealand, General English, General Scottish) that can hold its own. Class doesn't come into it and I say that as a working class man only too aware of what class can do. Go raibh maith agaibh, Criostoir. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 20 22:34:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 15:34:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.20 (03) [E/Swedish] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.19 (02) [E] From: wim, wkv at home.nl zwolle Netherlands. Hi, Old Frisian, well there are bits and pieces of rune sticks with Frisian words found in flood mounts all over Friesland, those are the oldest bit's of Germanic found in the Netherlands. How ever there aren't many of them, and few words, and nobody can tell the difference between really old Anglo- Saxon, and Frisian... H?r ?r min web sidens adressen, jag har skrivet lite om gamla frisk, och runar. : http://www.geocities.com/velikovski_project/Runic.htm That's about all Ii found about Frisian runic texts. Bye. wim. [Verdoold] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Dear Lowlanders, (1) One subscriber has kindly offered Afrikaans translation help for our project "Lowlands Talk" (http://www.lowlands-l.net/talk/) but apparently would be able to translate only a few of the "blurbs." I wonder if anyone else (the more the merrier) can and wishes to participate in it in a team effort. As a matter of principle, we start a series of translations into a certain language only if there is enough commitment to translating the entire series of "blurbs" -- in other words, all or nothing. If you wish to participate in an Afrikaans translation effort, please contact Mathieu van Woerkom (Mathieu.vanWoerkom at student.kun.nl) and me (sassisch at yahoo.com). Thanks. (2) I wonder if there is any interest in a small series of introductory blurbs about Lowlands-L members, listing their interests, projects, achievements, web pages, and anything else they wish to be known, with an emphasis on Lowlands languages and cultures. I imagine each of those blurbs to be a paragraph in English (for which help would be available) and a version or message in the person's native language or the Lowlands language(s) of their interest. Please get in touch with me(sassisch at yahoo.com) if you are interested. Thanks for your continued interest and support! Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 04:23:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2002 21:23:27 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 20.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andrys Onsman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (02) [|E] Howyagoing? Having lived in the far south (ie Hobart, Tasmania) and worked in the far north (ie Darwin and the Tiwi Islands) for some 35 years, and been to most places in between, I am yet to hear anyone pronounce good-day as g'die, or late as lite! Whilst some regional variation is undoubtedly happening (Tasmanians tend to end their sentences with though, New South Welshfolk with but and Queenslanders and Territorians with eh. As in "Nice day, though/but/eh"; Whether you call luncheon meat Belgium, Fritz or Strasbourg "Straz" will identify you as Tasmanian, South Australian or Victorian) the notion that a person can be placed by accent seems somewhat tenuous. The most fascinating aspect to me is the development of a (self-referencing) neutral Australian accent (a national version Standard Australian English). Broad Australian is often spoken naturally in the bush and affectedly in the cities. Like Christoir, I'm not sure that it's related to class. Best, Andrys ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Andrys, Christoir, Lowlanders, OK, so I concede regarding "class," admitting that most of my knowledge is dated. I understand that meanwhile genuine "broad" Australian is fading away in urban communities. It would be interesting to know if Christoir found this to be so in Western Australia as well, because in "my" time I felt that there was a range of ...lects within the greater Perth area and the Southwest in general (Bunbury, Albany, Kalgoorlie). However, considerable urban growth and a lot of influx from the East Coast (and abroad) may have changed that linguistic landscape. What I find particularly fascinating is the topic of outsiders' vs. speakers' perception of phonology, especially in the case of Australia. Abroad, Australian pronunciation of "day," "tail" and "late" tends to be perceived as "die," "tile" and "light" (i.e., to the ear of someone with little exposure to Australian speech). However, Australians tend to swear up and down that that is completely wrong, that all that is nonsense. I believe that this is because it is an issue of "mapping." The speaker and the experienced listener are aware of the difference of phonetic output, e.g., the minimal pair "day" and "die." Inexperienced listeners, however, such as most Americans, tend to perceive the Australian pronunciation of "day" as "die" and of "die" as "doy." None of them is "correct," and this analysis seems absurd to Australians, but it has something to do with the listener allocating a foreign sound (or sound sequence) to the perceptively closest native sound (or sound sequence). With sustained exposure, the listener adjusts his or her perception, usually very soon. At least this is what I think. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 18:08:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:08:55 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] Dear all, Andrys wrote: "I am yet to hear anyone pronounce good-day as g'die, or late as lite!" Absolutely. I think this is a gross distortion foisted on unsuspecting Australians. "Whilst some regional variation is undoubtedly happening (Tasmanians tend to end their sentences with though, New South Welshfolk with but and Queenslanders and Territorians with eh. As in "Nice day, though/but/eh"" "Eh" seems to be spreading heavily in Perth. I picked it up from there and now use it all the time, eh. Perth natives tend to see it as very New Zealand in origin, through a New South Wales medium, eh. :) I think it's a great tag. Ron wrote: "It would be interesting to know if Christoir found this to be so in Western Australia as well, because in "my" time I felt that there was a range of ...lects within the greater Perth area and the Southwest in general (Bunbury, Albany, Kalgoorlie)." Kalgoorlie where I lived still retained the "broad Australian" or ocker accent, definitely. Not too sure about Perth. Certainly my knowledge is limited to the southern suburbs of Thornlie, Maddington and Canning Vale, but I would doubt that amongst the young anything but an undifferentiated "general Australian" accent is in use.As Ron suggests this may have something to do with east-west migration and accent levelling but I seriously believe the strongest culprit, as every where else, is the national media. Amongst the very young (<16) I noticed a *very* strong Americanisation (specifically Californisation) of accent and tone, even in Kalgoorlie. Perhaps this is affected, I don't know. I have noticed that Australians, like many working class English speakers, become "broader" in speech when they are agitated, however. As regards perceptions of phonology, I would *never ever* hear "day" as "die" or "late" as "lite" - I hear each as day and late. The best man at my wedding is Greek and he continually heard [oi] in those positions, e.g., "moit" for "mate". At a push I can understand a perception of [oi] in day, but never [ai]. And I always tease my wife for inserting aspiration in such phrases (if you'll excuse me) as "fuck off", which I hear as "fah-hack awff". Presumably this is to do with the characteristic rising tone of Australian English, where the aspiration is the peak of the ascendant tone. Go raibh maith agaibh, Cr?ost?ir. ---------- From: Thomas Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] > Having lived in the far south (ie Hobart, Tasmania) and worked in the > far north (ie Darwin and the Tiwi Islands) for some 35 years, and been > to most places in between, I am yet to hear anyone pronounce good-day as > g'die, or late as lite! Both are commonly used here in Brisbane where I've lived and worked since 1971. I even had a problem once trying to chase up an order for sticky labels where I rang the supplier and said "I want to know what's happened to our labels ?" Woman's response was an intelligent "Eeeeh ?". After several unproductive attempts to get my message over I resorted to spelling out the word, that did it.."Aoh, Libels". Company is one of Australia's biggest suppliers of the things. You must mix with a better class of people Matey. :-) Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] When I read Andrys's comments, my thoughts were (in a less linguistically rigorous) the same as Ron's turned out to be. Ron has a good explanation, but the fact is, Ondrys, to people from outside Australia, who are familiar in particular with American or Canadian English, "day" does sound closer to our "die" than our "day", though I have also discovered from personal experience that as we grow accustomed to an 'accent', our 'mapping' must indeed change, because now when I hear Australian accents (that good old internet: all the rugby league match videos for free, all the Aussie rules for a nominal fee), I have to admit that I don't really notice it anymore unless I am focused on it. But Andrys, what about that darned /o/? Really, it does seem to take a complete tour of the mouth without ever reaching the point of articulation of /o/ as we New World types know it... Stan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Thanks for your feedback (above), guys. As you can see, perception/mapping and adjustment thereof varies and cannot be ignored or dismissed, no matter what native speakers and well-acquainted ("remapped") listeners may say. I remember my first brief encounter with a Farsi-speaking friend (from Iran). We had exchanged only a few words, and then she shouted across the room what sounded like "Boy!" For a few seconds I made a "Huh?!" face and then remembered that she, like many Iranians, renders the [aI] sound (as in "sigh", "die" and "line") as [Q.I], which to most non-Farsi speakers tends to be mapped to "oy". (Farsi has "short" /a/ which sounds rather like the "a" in "man" in most English dialects, and a "long" /?/ which sounds like the long Swedish "a" or the "ar" in very "posh" England English, with some rounding.) In rendering English [aI] she uses the "long" Farsi /?/: [Q.I]. She uses the "short" /a/ [?] in rendering the English [EI] sound (as in "may"): [?I]. And she says something like [oI] or [UI] for the English "oy" diphthong. Now that I have known her and other Farsi speakers for a long time I hardly ever think about this. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 18:38:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 11:38:17 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.21 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Theo Homan Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.20 (01) [|D/E] Iedereen, Heel hartelijk dank. Ik heb eventjes heel weinig tijd, maar zeg even dank omdat ik voor deze 'moeilijke' woorden haast geen serieuze reacties verwacht had. Ter stimulering wil ik wel even kwijt dat bij 'koorts' ik zelf graag denk aan verband met het oude woord dat bijv. voorkomt in duits 'Kar-freitag', oe.'caron' en [west]scand. ong.'liggja i kjoer' (op je doodsbed liggen). Teruggaand op het Indo-Eur. kun je dan bij de betekenis komen van 'het ijlen' / 'delirium' [hadden ze vroeger ook hoor]. hart dank, vr. gr. Theo Homan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology According to the _Herkunftsduden_, the _Kar..._ in _Karfreitag_ 'Good Friday' comes from Middle (High) German _kar_ < Old (High) German _chara_ 'lament', 'mourning'; cf. Gothic _kara_ 'care', 'worry'; cf. Old English > Modern English _care_. They link it with Greek _g?rys_ 'call', 'voice', Old Irish _g?ir_ 'screaming' and ultimately Indo-European *_g^a*r-_ 'to call (out)', 'to scream', 'to lament'. Old English really has _caru_ for it, Old Saxon _kara_, Germanic *_kar?_. Is there a link with Romance _car-_ 'dear' (e.g., Spanish _caro_ ~ _cara_, French _cher(e)_; also _charity_ < French _charit?_ < Latin _caritas_) and North Germanic _k?r_ ~ _kj?r_ ~ _k?r_ 'dear' and its derivatives (e.g., _k?rlighed_ etc. 'love')? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 23:02:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:02:42 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) [E] Lowlands-L heeft op maandag, 21 okt 2002 om 20:08 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > > From: Criostoir O Ciardha > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] > > Dear all, > "Whilst some regional variation is undoubtedly happening (Tasmanians > tend > to end their sentences with though, New South Welshfolk with but and > Queenslanders and Territorians with eh. As in "Nice day, > though/but/eh"" > > "Eh" seems to be spreading heavily in Perth. I picked it up from there > and > now use it all the time, eh. Perth natives tend to see it as very New > Zealand in origin, through a New South Wales medium, eh. :) I think > it's a > great tag. And in West-Flanders in the "Westhoek" people alwaeys end their sentences with "enni [ {ne] " meaning "niet waar?" Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] Hi all! I am really enjoying the chat on Aussie English. Some years ago I discovered there are semi-comic books about broad Australian - which has taken the name "Strine" an extreme pronunciation of Australian. I am told something similar is published about the Charleston South Carolina which has quite unusual vowels to the outside ear. Apparently the older residents of the Outer Banks islands of coastal North Carolina share some of this divergent accent as well. There are semi-humorous books about Southern and Mountain talk - and of course Scots ("Awa and Bile Your Heid" is an example of a recent compilation of Scots curses and insults.) Are there other Lowland examples of this type of semi-popular dialect book or pamphlet? Do people think on balance it is a good or a bad thing for language conservation? No worries George Gibault ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Hi, George! (By the way, because I always pronounce written stuff in my head I've long meant to ask you if your first name is pronounced English or French. Please ignore the question if it isn't my business.) > I am really enjoying the chat on Aussie English. Some years ago I > discovered there are semi-comic books about broad Australian - which has > taken the name "Strine" an extreme pronunciation of Australian. It is called _Let Stalk Strine_ (= "Let's Talk Australian" -- Ure Smith, Sydney, 1965) and, a later work, _Let Stalk Strine and Nose Tone Unturned_ (Afferbeck Lauder, Al Terego, Australia in Print; ASIN: 0725406011; August 1989). One phrase I remember from the former is "Emma Chisitt?" for "How much is it?" They are kind of silly (in part because of deliberately moved word boundaries), but they are intertaining enough to have been sold well. It is interesting to note that quite a lot of Australians lightheartedly write "Strine" for "Australian." Either they see some sort of justification for that or they are going along with am baseless foreign joke. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 21 23:05:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2002 16:05:22 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.21 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 21.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.20 (01) [|D/E] Lowlands-L heeft op maandag, 21 okt 2002 om 00:05 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > From: Wim > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] > > Hi! > > These three words ( puin koorts and paling , have "no etymological > explanation" according too my etymological dictionary.. (Koorts might > be > connected with a word in sanscrit ....) ( j. de vries/ f de > Tollennaere)(Het spectrum.. isbn 90 274 2947 2) > > However it's not Paal...nothing to do with paling, (and palindrome is > not the dream of an eel either.) > well, and they are typical Dutch words. Western Dutch. (They might > come from a substratum even, like for instance the word schaap is. The > Germanic word for schaap, sheep, being ewe, ooi.) > > Very interesting subject! > > Wim [Verdoold] > > From: Luc Hellinckx > Subject: Etymology > > Beste Theo (and other Li?glanners) > > Here's some etymological information (< Jan de Vries) concerning , > > 1) PALING : znw. m., mnl. p?linc, paellinc, ook paeldinc, paeldrinc. > Het > woord is uitsluitend nl. en blijkens de uitgang (zie > : bokking) een afl. van een woord paal. - Mag men wegens de vorm van > een > dikke paling aan overdrachtelijke betekenis van paal > 1 denken ? Moelijker kan men een afl. van het eenmaal voorkomende mnl. > pail > m. 'poel, plas' aannemen, dat met poel zou kunnen > samenhangen. > De vorm paeldinc moet wel als de oudste beschouwd worden, want de > Palingdijk, een gracht tussen Bourbourg en Grevelingen, > heeft als oude vormen Palathingadic (1111) en Paledhingedic (1123). > > 2) PUIN : znw. o. eerst na Kiliaen bekend, een specifiek nnl. woord, > vooral > in gebruik in Noord-Holland bezuiden het IJ, > Utrecht, N-W. Gelderl. en Overijsel en daarom wel als jonge formatie te > beschouwen. Verband met oe. punian 'stampen' (ne. > pound) is daarom niet waarschijnlijk. De herkomst van het woord is > onbekend. > > 3) KOORTS : znw. v., mnl. corts, coorts, curts, m. (zelden) en > laat-mnl. > cortse, curtse v., mnd. korts. > De beperkte verbreiding van het woord maakt het zeer twijfelachtig, of > men > het verbinden mag met oi. jvarati (heeft koorts), > jvara- 'koorts, smart' (IEW 479). > > They are intruiging words indeed, especially "koorts". In Brabant and > Flanders "kortsen" or "kortses" (always plural ! and a > short 'o') is the usual form. But apparently "kortsen" (pronounced > k?tsen in > Brabantish) have not always been associated > uniquely with 'heat', because Kiliaen testifies that in the 16th > century > Brabantish "koud wee" used to be a synonym of > "kortsen". On the other hand there are words like "ne kaa" (B), "een > verkoudheid" (D), "a cold" (E) that seem to blame chilly > feelings for catching a cold. Knowledge of pre-scientific medicinal > skills > seems necessary, I think. > Maybe it's the idea of suffering from brief spells of overheating, > interspersed with short periods of feeling cold that gave > birth to the word. Hence it would have to be derived from "short" (E), > "kort" (D). It's not entirely impossible that an > adjective becomes a substantive, because in Brabantish we also have > the word > "k?t" (probably short for "kort gekapt"), "kort" > (D) which signifies "kopvlees, zult" (D), "fromage de cochon" in > French and > "hoofdflakke" in Flemish, meat being made from the > head of a pig or a cow that is often eaten with some mustard. > > Regarding "paling" (D) I seem to remember that I once heard the word > "peurling" being used in Flanders for an eel. > This word can be derived from the verb "peuren" which means "to dig in > mud > with a stick in order to make the eels come out". > > Greetings, > > Luc Hellinckx > > ---------- > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Luc wrote above: > >> Regarding "paling" (D) I seem to remember that I once heard the word > "peurling" >> being used in Flanders for an eel. >> This word can be derived from the verb "peuren" which means "to dig >> in mud > with >> a stick in order to make the eels come out". > > Interesting! > > I assumed this Flemish verb _peuren_ (/p??r-/) is a cognate of Lowlands > Saxon (Low German) _purren_ (/pur-/ [p_hU3`-]), Eastern Friesland > dialect > _puren_ ~ _puurn_ (/puur-/ [p_hu:3`-]), which means (intrans.) 'to > stoke', > 'to poke' (usually with a stick or such in dirt, sand, mud, etc.) and > (trans.) 'to spur on', 'to goad on', 'to provoke', 'to pester', 'to > hound'. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron > Dear Lowlanders Here is some Flemish explanation regarding "paling-puin-koorts" Paoling: also called "aol(e)" Remarks... -In French-Flanders an "ale(aal)" = D: aar (W)V: een auwe E: ear (of corn). This has perhaps something to do with the simular form. -Paol (paolew-paoluw)= D: blauwzwart. Sometimes also like in the E word " pale" which is almost the opposite. Peuren (Peur'n): Is to catch an eel with a "peure"(V) For us this was fishing after eels with a net (never poking!)It could also mean to fish with a fishing-rod and bait. People also used a "paolingschaore (V) or an "olge?r(elleke?r)"(V). These were scissors with teeth to catch eel with it. A "peure"(V) is also a bunch of earthworms on a stick to put into the water to catch eel. "peur'n" in Flemish also means to purify, but that's another history i think. Puin: We say "pun" but i think that this is indeed a loan from the (North)Dutch word. koorts: We alwaeys say "kuts" The plural form is seldom used anymore. Sometimes one can hear: kors - korts(e) We have a saying: -De koude kuts ein/krieg'n van... (E: to have the cold fever)=to have an aversion to, from,for... And: -de rotte kuts = typhus -de ro? kuts = scarlet fever -de raozende kuts = a person who wanders in his mind because of the fever. PS: could it have anything to do with the Latin word "curro" (to run, to ride) Groetjes, Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 22 15:35:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 08:35:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.22 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.19 (04) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > A bout of fever may be referred to as _Schuur_ [Su:3`] ("shower," > masc. ~ neut., pl. _Schuren_ ~ _Schuurn_ [Su:3`n]), the same word > being used > for a rain shower (not a shower in the bathroom, which is _Duusch_). > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Hello, In Flanders we also use the word "stortbad" for E: shower or D: douche. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 22 16:06:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 09:06:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.22 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andrys Onsman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] To: George, Ron and all Subject: Language varieties From: Andrys Onsman > I am really enjoying the chat on Aussie English. Some years ago I > discovered there are semi-comic books about broad Australian - which has > taken the name "Strine" an extreme pronunciation of Australian. My bet is you'd enjoy Nino Culotto's "They're a Weird Mob" and subsequent stories about an "English" speaking migrant learning to speak "Australian." Culotto was actually John O'Grady a comedy writer with a fine ear for language. I'm sure I owe whatever "Australianess" I have to him. As it was written in the sixties, it's almost a historical piece now, but it still entertains me enormously. Good on youse, Andrys Onsman ---------- From: Andrys Onsman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) [E] To: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.20 (04) [E] > But Andrys, what about that darned /o/? Really, it > does seem to take a complete tour of the mouth without > ever reaching the point of articulation of /o/ as we > New World types know it... Stan, I've just spent half an hour sounding /o/ (Heaven knows what the people in the next office must think!) and apart from discovering that its remarkable close to the Dutch ui, (a bit lower) I can only congratulate you on your remarkable perspicacity and most effective description. Perhaps you don't have as many flies and can open your mouths wider? If nothing else I now really enjoy that sound! Cheers, Andrys ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] Dear all, George wrote: "I am really enjoying the chat on Aussie English. Some years ago I discovered there are semi-comic books about broad Australian - which has taken the name "Strine" an extreme pronunciation of Australian." I never understood "Strine" as a description of the dialect - I would use (with apologies to Tara Brabazon) "Ozdray-yun" (i.e., Australian) as a name for it. Furthermore, when I am Kalgoorlie or Perth I would call it "Wesd Ozdray-yun", for reasons that Ron would understand! "Do people think on balance it is a good or a bad thing for language conservation?" I'm ambivalent toward humour books on local dialect. For one, they perform the old function of dismissing local language as ridiculous peasant speech that should been taken seriously and on the other they are largely inaccurate as the writers tend to mangle the language to get it sound as silly as they want. There's a book on my language named "Ey up mi Duck" which is little more than a mockery of the speech, which is depressing. Local languages aren't quaint. They're the identity of real people and should perhaps be afforded a little more respect.Ron's characterisation of a "baseless foreign joke" applies just as much to local dialect. I think in Australia there is less mockery of the tongue and more a sense of national pride in it, however, which is refreshing to see. Go raibh math agaibh, Cr?ost?ir. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Andrys: > Stan, I've just spent half an hour sounding /o/ (Heaven knows what the > people in the next office must think!) So have I, but I closed my door ... I think we are dealing with something like [eW] (where the SAMPA [W] stands for an upside-down m, the unrounded equivalent of [u]). > Perhaps you don't have as many flies and can open your mouths wider? *Now* we are getting somewhere! *There's* is a plausible explanation if ever I heard (read) one, and it does explain a lot! Oh, yes! Hardly any place has more flies than Australia. Cr?ost?ir: > I think in Australia there is less mockery of the tongue and more a sense of > national pride in it, however, which is refreshing to see. The national pride thing is my impression also. However, this does not mean that Australians never poke fun at themselves, including their language. In fact, they do, but it is my impression that what on the surface appears to be deprecating is really worn as a badge of honor. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 22 18:55:58 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 11:55:58 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.22 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.22 (02) [E] Andrys, Hope you and the "o" had fun together. I also thought that it had some resemblance to the Dutch "ui", but it has got tons more character to it. Just love Aussie English. Not just from point of view of phonetics: I've been reading quite a bit of Australian literature, and keep running to the computer to look at the macquarie online dictionary, which is an incredible tool (Carey's "Illywhacker" is practically a crash course in "Strine"). I'm gonna have to find out if they will download that thing to a PDA before the next time I go to Australia!!! Also, don't worry about those people in the next office... in between thinking "What the hell is Andrys doing?" they are thinking "Wow, I'm in Australia. How cool is that?" Stan > From: Andrys Onsman > > Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) > [E] > Stan, I've just spent half an hour sounding /o/ > (Heaven knows what the > people in the next office must think!) and apart > from discovering that > its remarkable close to the Dutch ui, (a bit lower) > I can only > congratulate you on your remarkable perspicacity and > most effective > description. Perhaps you don't have as many flies > and can open your > mouths wider? If nothing else I now really enjoy > that sound! > > Cheers, > Andrys ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] Hi! For those who are curious, my name is pronounced differently in French and English. When speaking English it is jorj jEEbo. In French it is zhorzh zhibo. I forgot to mention a great book on Canadian Engkish called Canajun Eh? which notes such Canadianisms as thre Chateau Laurier hotel in Ottawa coming out as the "Shadow". It also evidences the Canadian preference for ending sentences in eh. Educated Canadians believe they have the most "neutral" accent in English. In the sci fi film "2001 A Space Odyssey" for example, a Canadian voice was deliberately chosen for HAL the renegade computer. Educated Canadian apparently sounds "classier", "more polite", "smarter" and "more educated" to most American ears.America's, most trusted newsman, Peter Jennings - speaks Canadian which is a touch classier even than Standard Broadcast English taught to US newscasters. A few differences: yanks say May zhir we say meh zhir for measure; yanks say zee we say zed for "z". (But have you noticed Agent Zed in "Men In Black?") Sadly lots of our kids now say Zee. I have heard young Vancouverites pronounce spoon as spIHoown (Val speak from the suburban LA Galleria?) Our diphthong in "about" is less sharp than American - as also our diphthong in "nice" - but we DON'T say "aboot" as some Americans claim. The border is very real - while Torontonians and Vancouverites speak dialects of General American, they speak more alike three thousand miles apart than they do in comparison with their closest American neighbours. Washington staters supposedly speak General American - but many have a seemingly stronger "American" accent to Canadian ears than northern Californians or Oregonians. One good shibboleth - in British Columbia, in casual speech people say "thanks." Washingtonians say "uh-huh." Toronto English and Vancouver English are gradually becoming more not less distinct in spite of the homogenizing impact of television - perhaps due to stronger California influence here on the west coast. An East Indian (p.c. South Asian) friend from Montreal notices that a lot of west coast Canadians now end affirmative sentences with a rising intonation (Like to sound less heavy and judgmental I guess man). Eastern and Central Canadians don't (yet). Some rural dialects of Canadian English - Ottawa Valley, Cape Breton, various Newfoundland dialects, have strong Irish, Gaelic or Scots influence - and are often parodied. The only strong regionalism I have encountered in western Canada was the tendency of kids in the East Kootenays (rocky mountain south east of British Columbia to use "fair" for very - as in "fair good." Has anyone else heard this from other places? just another confused Canadian George ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties George: > yanks say May zhir we say meh zhir for measure *Most* Yanks do, not all. For some strange reason, "mey-zhir" rubs me the wrong way. Apparently I am not the only one. I have heard native American English speakers complain about it too. > One good shibboleth - in British Columbia, in casual speech people say "thanks." > Washingtonians say "uh-huh." As far as I know, this "uh-huh" stands for "You're welcome," "Don't mention it" or "Sure" in *response* to "Thank you," at least here in Washington *State*. At first it struck me as strange and impolite, but I have gotten (= another American adaptation of mine) over it and have caught myself saying (or grunting?) it a few times recently. On the whole, I do not find the speech habits of people in Vancouver (which I visit quite often) to be very different. As far as I can tell, it is quite a mixed bag, because the city (the warmest really large city in Canada, not mentioning Victoria) attracts so many people from all over Canada. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 22 22:51:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2002 15:51:10 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.22 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 22.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language varieties Hi All George wrote: "Do people think on balance it is a good or a bad thing for language conservation?" with regards to comedy books on regional dialects. I think it can be a bad thing. Whilst looking for books in Germany on regional dialects, I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough - but then any books on the local dialect are usually to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious study of dialects I've found most of the books to be pretty useless. There are however a few humourous books on dialect out there which are also quite informative. Going from my own 'Estuary English', there's a book by Paul Coggle (I haven't got it to hand, but I think it's called 'Estuary English' or 'Do you speak Estuary?') which goes from humourous introductions into a closer description of the differences with RP English, and it also points out some of the differences with Cockney, all done in a fairly amusing but informative way. I disagree with some of his descriptions, and he does have a nasty habit of reducing the Estuary speaker to a 'shell suit wearer', which I object to, never having worn one in my life, but it is a good introduction. So comedy dialects as a means of promoting a dialect - ok, but only if they're quite accurate. Gary (OK he points my name out as being one typical of an Estuary speaker, along with Sharon, which is my sister's name!) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 15:03:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:03:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kirky Subject: Source of "Opoe"? Greetings to all, I am new to the list and have found it very interesing so far. I was wondering if anyone has come across the word "Opoe" in any of their language/ etymology research? My grandmother, who is of Frisian decent (she was born in Jubbega, near It Hearrenfean) requested that my brother and I call her 'Opoe', while living in Australia, instead of 'Nanna' which we had previously called her from Canada. As we know, "Beppe" is Grandmother in Frisian, and "Oma" is Grandmother in Nederlander. My family and I have been puzzling over the language/ etymological source of "Opoe" for some years now, and I would be greatful to anyone who may be able to shed light on the issue. Sincerely, Kirstina [Bray] ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 16:10:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:10:21 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Kirky Subject: Source of "Opoe"? Greetings to all, Incidentally for those interested in a humourous view of 'Strine'/ 'Strayan'/ or Australian as most people know it, there is "The Dinkum Dictionary: A ripper guide to Aussie English" by Lenie (Midge) Johansen. This has some gems such as 'cackleberry' meaning an egg, and 'checking (one's) eyelids for holes' meaning having a nap :) Sincerely, Kirstina [Bray] ---------- From: Kirky Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] Hi all, This is interesting. A well known Canadian stereotype is that everyone ends a sentence in 'eh' as emphasis, it's origin well known from early French influence. Eg. if an Australian says "G'day mate", a Canadian says "Good day, eh!". I've noticed a number of Canadian immigrants in Australia, to the point where there is a Toronto in Canada Bay, in the Sydney Region NSW. As the noticable rise in 'oui' (oh-u-e) for 'o' (oh) in South Australia may be attributed to New Zealand migrants, perhaps this influx of 'eh' might be from Canadian ones? Could be much earlier influences of course, but it's something to ponder. Kirstina [Bray] ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: language varieties Hoi allemaal, Gary Taylor wrote: "I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough - but then any books on the local dialect are usually to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious study of dialects I've found most of the books to be pretty useless." First I would like to say I'm not attacking you Gary. Perhaps I'm just in a bad mood, but some of the discussions are far above me and I feel quite ignorant. I know many on this list are doing whatever they can to protect and promote the languages we so dearly love, but I think any "serious" book on the study of dialects is useful and I haven't even seen them. At least someone out there is trying, which is more than I can say for the average person. Secondly, I don't mean to brag on my methods as a teacher in a high school, but many of my students have said that they actually learned German in my class in comparison to other foreign language classes where they may have learned how to say "hello, good morning, my name is, goodbye" ...and that's about it. I know my methods will always need work, but at the moment, they are working. I would like to take my ideas into the realm of minority languages from this list, particularly Dutch, Zeeuws, Frysk, Afrikaans and now, thanks to Ron at least one Native American language that has only about 6,000 speakers here in the state of Florida. But, I need help, because I can only read Afrikaans (can't speak it) and can read and speak Dutch with numerous errors. I am currently writing my own textbook to promote here in the schools, because most of them are terrible. The textbook will be very concise without a lot of "useless pictures" (one need only get on the internet to see pictures of Germany, etc.) and has the students reading simple texts in the language very quickly. I would really like to do that with some of the other lowlands languages, but as I have said, I need to learn the basics of those languages too. If someone were to translate my "textbook" into those languages I could learn them at the same time I teach my students. Many might say that one could not introduce these languages in the schools in the U.S., but I say, why not try. Who has tried? I'd like to try! I have a lot more I could say on this, but I might need a book to do it and I've already taken enough of your time. Okay (oh that word, okay, o.k.)Ron, take your best shot at me! Kevin Browne ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: Class accents Bonjour, y'all! Of course it is not just low status accents that get parodied. There used to be quite a lot of people who spoke a sort of toffee nose Southern Vancouver Island British accent - still heard "behind the tweed curtain" in Oak Bay - but gradually dying out it appears. About twenty years ago I was told that west coast naval officers had been ordered by their eastern higher ups to stop "putting it on." Our local MP still speaks a moderate form of it - and his political detractors - such as myself - sometimes refer to him as David Onderson (real name Anderson) to make the point. The dialect survey of British Columbia English which I worked on in university found traces of it in upper class Vancouver neighbourhoods and in the posh rural Okanagan Valley - so apparently it was once quite real and not "put on" until later recognition of its value by social climbers. By the mid 20th century its speakers were pretty universally thought to be using it against the rest of us. ant vs. awnt for aunt was a classic test. Interestingly enough, a transitional form developed with a sort of mid vowel ahnt (also used tomaeto not tomawto or tomayto) and this was not heard as a snob accent by the rest of us. I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist, for instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this northern "high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"? which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"? Curiously yours George ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Kevin: > Okay (oh that word, okay, o.k.)Ron, take your best shot at me! Hi, Kev! No shot from me, partly because I feel too darn sleepy, and partly because I don't have any issue with what you said. So once again you are getting away unscathed, at least as far as I am concerned. I always appreciate your enthusiasm and your willingness to take fresh looks at old issues and to "think outside the box" (sorry), and no doubt by many of your students appreciate them as well. George: > I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their > pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist, for > instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an > aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this northern > "high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"? > which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"? This is becoming a thing of the past. I am old enough to remember that general type of "better" North German "accent" quite well. These days it is mostly aged upper- and upper-middle-class Northerners who pronounce German like that. In Hamburg, Bremen, Rostock and L?beck it used to be or still is referred to as "Hanseatisch." It is how most well-educated and -situated North Germans used to speak, especially in the cities, the upper-class equivalent of low-class Missingsch (German dialects on Lowlands Saxon [Low German] substrates), which is also fading away. Both varieties have in common certain Lowlands Saxon phonological rules. The pronunciation of syllable-final /g/ as [x] (as though written ), and in many cases a preceding long vowel is shortened. Thus, you get words like _Tag_ [t_hax] 'day' (as though written vs. Standard [t_ha:k], cf. LS _Dag_ [dax]) and _Zug_ [ts_hUx] 'train' (as though written vs. Standard [ts_hu:k], cf. LS _Tog_ [t_hOx]). (Some Hanseats may say [ts_hu:x] with a long vowel.) Syllable-final /r/ is "deleted," i.e., changes into a vowel, as in LS; e.g., _Mark_ [mQ:k] (South Hamburg) ~ [ma:k] (North Hamburg) 'mark'. These two features are fairly persistent; they can still be observed in upper- and lower-class Northern German. Pronouncing _st..._ as [st] and _sp..._ as [sp] (as in English, Dutch, Danish, etc.) and using an apical (toungue-tip) /r/, both derived from LS, are two common upper- and lower-class North German features that are now on their way out. Most people now pronounce _st..._ as _scht..._ and _sp..._ as _schp..._, and they use the uvular (throat) /r/ (similar to the French /r/). The main differences between now moribund upper-class North German (NG) and lower-class Missingsch (M) are that NG distinguishes dative and accusative while M does not, NG tends to follow Standard German syntactic rules (e.g., _Damit habich nich(t)s zu tuun_ 'I don't have anything to do with it/that.') while M tends to follow LS syntax (e.g., _Da happich niks mit zu (~ missu) tuun_ 'I don't have anything to do with it/that.' vs. Standard _Damit habe ich nichts zu tun._, LS _Daar heff ik niks mit to doon._), and M uses far, far more LS loanwords than does NG. In Missingsch, as in LS, there is no phonetic difference between (1) _machen_ 'to make', 'to do', and (2) _m?gen_ 'to like' in most persons, while many NG speakers will make a difference: Standard NG Missingsch LS ich mache ['max@] ich mach(e) [max(e)] ich mach [max] ik mag [max] ich mag [ma:k] ich mach [max] ich mach [max] ik mag [max] Also, NG speakers may be more inclined to distinguish 'it' from 'that', while M speakers (like most LS speakers) never do: Standard: Es regnet. NG: Es reechnet. M: Das reechnet. LS: Dat regent. 'It rains.', 'It is raining.' Standard: Ich mag es gern. NG: Ich mach es geern(e). M: Ich mach das (~ machas) geerne. LS: Ik mag (~ mach) dat geern.* 'I like it.' * Some LS dialects have retained old _it_ ~ _et_ 'it'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 16:34:20 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:34:20 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.23 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, Since my last administrative message we have been joined by people from the following places: China: Hong Kong [1] Netherlands: Gelderland: Wageningen [1] Utrecht: Zeist [1] Spain: M?laga: Estepona [1] Sweden: Uppsala: Uppsala [1] V?stmanland: Kolsva [1] Turkey: Izmir: Selcuk [1] United Kingdom: England: Lincolnshire: Boston [1] United States of America: Kentucky: Louisville [1] Minnesota: Milaca [1] Ohio: Findlay [1] Harveysburg [1] Wilmington [1] ? [1] Welcome to all of them! It is important that all subscribers, "old" and new, are familiar with the rules and guidelines (http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm). The most frequent mistakes in posting submissions are not giving ones real or full name, and not keeping topics apart. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 16:39:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 09:39:00 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (01) [E] Hi! About the word Opoe... that's the normal word for grandmother in Salland, Eastern Netherlands. Bye! Wim wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Mathieu. van Woerkom Subject: Etymology Kirstina Bray wrote: > I am new to the list and have found it very interesing so far. I was > wondering if anyone has come across the word "Opoe" in any of their > language/ etymology research? My grandmother, who is of Frisian decent > (she was born in Jubbega, near It Hearrenfean) requested that my > brother and I call her 'Opoe', while living in Australia, instead of > 'Nanna' which we had previously called her from Canada. As we know, > "Beppe" is Grandmother in Frisian, and "Oma" is Grandmother in > Nederlander. My family and I have been puzzling over the language/ > etymological source of "Opoe" for some years now, and I would be > greatful to anyone who may be able to shed light on the issue. Hello Kirstina, as far as I know, _opoe_ is Urban Frisian for _granny_ (Urban Frisian is a dialect group which is strongly influenced by Dutch, it developed in the major towns of Friesland, e.g. Leeuwarden, Heerenveen, Dokkum, Sneek, Harlingen, Franeker etc.) You can read about it at our new project site 'Lowlands Talk' at http://lowlands-l.net/talk By the way, another Dutch word for _granny_ is _opoe_ as well... (grandpa & grandma = opa & opoe / opa & oma) Regards, Mathieu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 19:58:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 12:58:08 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E] Dear Lowlanders, I just spent a few days in the L?neburger Heide, north-east of Hannover (Hanover if you must), and found Plattd??tsch to be alive and well there. I was especially thrilled to see a Lower Saxon edition of Harry Potter in a bookstore in Celle - volumes one through four! Regards, Gabriele Kahn ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 20:37:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 13:37:56 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Dear Lowlanders, Does any of you know if the Russian word _knopka_ 'button' is a loanword, and, if so, if its origin is Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or Dutch, or could it be Yiddish? The word appears to be a diminutive derivation (_-ka_). LS and Dutch have _knoop_ for 'button'. Yiddish has _knop_ for 'button', often _knepele_ in the diminutive. Other Slavonic languages for 'button': Belarusian: guzik Bulgarian: kopche, buton Croatian: dugme Czech: knoflik (< German _Knopf_?), tla??tko Polish: guzik Serbian: dugme Slovak: gomb?k, tla??tko Slovene: gump, glavi? I can't help but sneak in a try to see if the special characters above and my bad Russian get through to you. Pardon me if it's garbled garbage. ??????, ??????? ??????! ?? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? "??????"? ?????????, ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???????????? ????? ??? ???????????????? (??????????????) ?????, ??? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 22:04:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:04:10 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.23 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Dear Lowlanders, My little experiment with East-European-specific and Cyrillic letters (today's last "Etymology") "sort of" worked. The message defaulted to Unicode mode. If your email system allows you to switch to Unicode encoding (which it should), and if you have a Unicode compatible font loaded (which you should), you should be able to read it. If you do have a Unicode font installed, go to our archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html and select the mentioned message: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0210d&L=lowlands-l&D=1&F=& S=&P=1113 You will then be able to see all "special" characters, because our hosts at LINGUIST have switched all of their presentation to default to Unicode mode (as befits any group dealing with languages). If you do not yet have Unicode fonts, I suggest you install at least one, preferable Arial, Times New Roman and Courier New. Allen Wood's presentation is a good resource to start with: http://www.alanwood.net/unicode/fonts.html Using Unicode fonts would enable us to use letters that are outside our current range, including the International Phonetic Alphabet. I would like to propose that those who wish to do so go ahead and use Unicode mode. As a courtesy to others they should signal this at the beginning of their messages (e.g., "This message is in Unicode" or just "Unicode"). Suggestions welcome. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 22:28:54 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:28:54 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (05) [E] Gabriele wrote: "I just spent a few days in the L?neburger Heide, north-east of Hannover (Hanover if you must), and found Plattd??tsch to be alive and well there." Moin Gabriele, moin Lowlanders, Please, Gabriele, tell us more about what you saw (and heard). I?d like some good news to be able to share your optimism. You say "alive and well". According to what you saw, what percentage of 0 to 20 year olds (who will be the active midlifers in 30 years time) are able to speak the language? Whenever I go home (Nordheide) I conclude that this percentage is approaching zero (certainly a small fraction of one percent). Looking forward to better news. Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.15 (09) [E] Ron wrote [about L-S]: " and there are not tens of millions of speakers but at the very, very most ten million." Ron, I meant 50 years ago. There must have been more 10 mio.? Whatever the old and new figures, the decline is dazzling. Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 22:32:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:32:09 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= [Unicode] From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] > ??????, ??????? ??????! > ?? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? "??????"? ?????????, ??????? ?? ????? > ?? ???????????? ????? ??? ???????????????? (??????????????) ?????, ??? > ??????? ?? ????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > Reinhard/Ron Ron, My wife (a native) insists, it must be a German loanword. Take it for what it?s worth, I suspect it?s only a gut feeling of hers. Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 22:33:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 15:33:27 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= [Unicode] From: Mike-club Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] > ??????, ??????? ??????! > ?? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? "??????"? ?????????, ??????? ?? ????? > ?? ???????????? ????? ??? ???????????????? (??????????????) ?????, ??? > ??????? ?? ????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > Reinhard/Ron Ron, My wife (a native) insists, it must be a German loanword. Take it for what it?s worth, I suspect it?s only a gut feeling of hers. Mike Wintzer ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 23 23:11:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2002 16:11:57 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: lingoman at webtv.net Subject: language varieties Since we've strayed into Hanseatic pronunciation of High German (well, of course, the substrate justifies our straying), I wanted to add a peculiarity I heard in Hamburg. More than once, I heard (lower-class?) speakers use something that sounded very much like Hamboich! Assuming I heard correctly, how would you classify this, Ron? It doesn't strike my ear as "fein"... Sean Roach ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Hi, Sean, Lowlanders! Yes, "Hambuich" ['hambUIC] or "Hamboich" ['hamboIC] for "Hamburg" ("fein": ['hambURk]) are typical of North German pronunciation, rhyming with that of _durch_ ([dUIC] ~ [doIC], "fein": [dURC]) 'through', and this applies to all names with "...burg". Here is my theory, based on the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) substrate. LS of these areas *always* changes non-initial /r/ to a vowel, and it *always* fricativizes final /g/. Thus, you have _seggen_ ['zEgN=] 'to say' vs. _segg!_ [zEC] 'say!', _d?rch_ [d9:C] ~ [d9.3`C] 'through', or _Bargen_ ['ba:gN=] 'mountains' vs. _Barg_ [ba:x] 'mountain', similarly _Borgen_ ['bO:gN=] ~ [bO.agN=] 'fortresses' vs. _Borg_ [bO:x] ~ [bO.ax] 'fortress'. In LS it is _Hamborg_ ['ha.mbO:x] ~ ['ha.mbO.ax]. Some Missingsch speakers pronounce or used to pronounce it like that, but, perhaps with the advent of uvular /r/ in combination with exposure to more southerly German [C] rendering of final /g/, the fricative has been fronted, and the /r/ therefore had to be vocalized frontally. Note also that in Missingsch and other not so "fein" North German dialects, /l/ may get vocalized in the same position; e.g., _Milch_ [me.IC] ("fein": [mIlC]) 'milk'. This happens in some LS dialects as well; e.g., _Melk_ [mE.lk] ~ [mE.Ik] ~ [mE:k] 'milk', _B?lg_ [bY.lC] ~ [bY.IC] ~ [bY:C] 'wave', _B?lgen_ [bY.lgN=] ~ [bY.IgN=] ~ [bY:gN=] 'waves'. (Note that Dutch dialects prefer to break up such clusters by means of epenthetic vowels; e.g., _melk_ ['mEWl at k] 'milk'.) Hummel, Hummel! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 24 14:59:29 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 07:59:29 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E] George wrote: "I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist, for instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this northern "high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"? which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"? Curiously yours George" Hi George, I have nothing to add to Rons assessment of phonological interference from Low German in the spoken Standard German of the North, but because of my being an actor, I can tell you a bit about "stage German" (B?hnendeutsch) which has often been called the only true spoken standard of German. I would disagree here to a certain extent as to whether it can be considered a spoken standard since many of its characteristics are simply an over-enunciated version of a reading pronunciation (Leseaussprache). Some characteristics of "B?hnendeutsch": - long and short vowels kept apart before /r/: .) stark - St?rke (short) uvular /r/ pronounced; .) Fahrt - F?hrte (long) uv. /r/ weakly pronounced or vocalised (scha-offglide); - long /e:/ and long (E:/ distinct (whether etymologically justified or not => Leseaussprache! Reading pronunciation); /za:l/ - /ze:l@/ - /se:l@/; - = schwa in present participle pronounced: /- at nt/ also in dat.sg. <-em> /- at m/ => /`gro:sn./ vs. /`gro:s at m/, - analogical lengthening from the plural forms in historically short- vowel monosyllabic singular forms are the rule, as in Upper German, i.e. /ta:k/ - /ta:g@/, and not Middle High German /tak/ or Northern Standard German (tax/; - initial is voiced, except in loanwords, i.e. /zEks/ vs. /sEks/. Northern German influence is to be seen in: - the /c,/ pronunciation in final unstressed <-ig> in /k?:nIc,/ vs. Upper German /k?nIk/ and /g?nstIc,/ vs UG /g?nstIk/, (though some would also accept this pronunciation on stage, it is not the rule, however). - distribution of Glottal stop before word-initial vowels is like Low German, and quite unlike the Upper German dialects. The rolled /r/ is no longer the rule and is heard less and less, and considered to be quite affected. Generally Austrian actors get away with it more easily as rolled or trilled /r/s are often in the phonetic repertoire of Austrian Upper German dialects, and it thus sounds more natural. It is rarly heard on German stages unless a degree of affection or achaism is intended. It is often heard when German is sung, as in opera, operetta or Lied-Repertoire, rarely though in Musical, chanson, or Brecht-Lieder, for example. "Guten Tach" has a very Prussian ring to my Austrian/Upper German ear. Greetings, Daniel ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E] G`day, Generally I would agree with what has been said about the Aussie vowels, however the "back" vowel/diphthong for standard E /ou/ retains its diphthongal quality, thouugh fronted and slightly rounded, whereas /i:/ and /u:/ have continued the diphthongal tendencies inherent to Cockney high vowels. So /u:/ and /i:/ are realised with a more closed (and rounded, in the case of /u:/) coda than the onset. The onset is also substantially lower than the onset of most other varieties of English (Cockney, Dixy and Southern Hemisphere varieties excluded). Aussie shifts RP /ae/ to /E/ and /E/ to /e/, and /I/ to /i/. As correctly observed New Zealand goes even further shifting /e/ to /I/ and original /I/ to /@/ (= schwa/ in the Kiwi schibboleth "f at sh `n ch at ps". Compare South African English and Afrikaans! Striking in both Strine/Strayan and Kiwi is the reduction of unstressed /I/ in final closed syllables to /@/. Excluded /eks`kl?yd at d/ - /Iks`cl?yd at d/. Say yuh lider (ouside perception!!!), D??n ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E] Since we are still dancing around the Australian vowels (and I want Andrys to sit in his office at Monash pronouncing sounds and freaking out his neighbors), I would like to present the next exhibit, your honors, namely, the humble sound /i/, i.e. that one usually spelled "ee" or "ea", etc. It seems to me that many Aussies pronounced words such as "beat" (maybe I'm wrong on the example, 'cause I haven't figured out all the limitations) with an /i/ that kind of starts with something else, something more central. Now here's what I wonder: while I know VERY little about Irish and possible influence of Irish Gaelic on Hiberno-English or other forms of English where the Irish immigrated, I wonder if this sound in Australian doesn't reflect something like the Irish (Gaelic) "broad" sounds vs. the "slender" sounds (terms used in an Irish book). Basically slender there means that the consonants are palatalized, while the "broad" are not, and tend to make the vowels sound more rounded. Any takers on this one? Any folks knowledgeable of Irish that can put me out of my "misery"? Andrys: go into your office, and start pronouncing: beat, feet, street, neat, meet, read, bead, .... Stan ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (10) [E] Concerning the Hamboich-pronounciation: This is a common Northern German accent stretching from the Rhineland to the Danish border which is based on the Low Saxon tendency to pronounce all post-vocalic g's as German ch, somebody from Duisburg would call his town "Duesbuich", I myself do the same, if we have almost lost the Low Saxon language in Northern Germany, at least we can try to preserve some distinctive accent in the High German spoken there. To pronounce a post-vocalic g as ch is actually correct German, in particular in words as "Koenig", please check the "Duden" (the standart German dictionary) for this. Sometimes foreigners who learn German have a tendency to be hyper-correct, I have heard foreigners pronouncing the town of Rostock as "Roschtock", though German is fairly phonetic in compare to English it still has a lot of deviations ! ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (10) [E] Ron wrote: > Note also that in Missingsch and other not so "fein" North German dialects, > /l/ may get vocalized in the same position; e.g., _Milch_ [me.IC] ("fein": > [mIlC]) 'milk'. This happens in some LS dialects as well; e.g., _Melk_ > [mE.lk] ~ [mE.Ik] ~ [mE:k] 'milk', _B?lg_ [bY.lC] ~ [bY.IC] ~ [bY:C] 'wave', > _B?lgen_ [bY.lgN=] ~ [bY.IgN=] ~ [bY:gN=] 'waves'. (Note that Dutch > dialects prefer to break up such clusters by means of epenthetic vowels; > e.g., _melk_ ['mEWl at k] 'milk'.) Actually, this is so ingrained in me that, when I'm tired or distracted, I tend to drop my Rs and Ls all over the place, in any language! My first husband was Dutch, and when I first learned the language, I told him - in Dutch - that something was "waam" (at least I didn't say "w??m", like a good Hanoverian should). I didn't see why he didn't get it, since the word "warm" is the same in Dutch and German, after all - or so I thought. I had to spell it out for him, and then he said: "Oh, you mean warrrrrrem!" That particular r, of course, gets dropped in English, too, although it is pronounced in "farm", "harm", etc. Regards, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (08) [E] Moin Mike, well, of course, I cannot quantify that from a brief two-days stay. But I overheard some middle-aged people talking in Platt in a pub, and there were a great many books to be had, and it also appeared a lot in writing on brochures, posters, etc. I don't know about children, of course, but I had the impression that, at least in the villages, most people over thirty would be able to switch without a problem. And their children should at least have a passive knowledge (one hopes). If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt... All the best, Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language varieties Dear All I wrote previously "I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough - but then any books on the local dialect are usually to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious study of dialects I've found most of the books to be pretty useless." The kind of books I was talking about tend not to be serious, and they have the affect of making a joke out of the local dialect. As I went on to say, there are some excellent books out there about dialects - however, still too often classified as 'humourous'. Sorry if I sounded like I was 'diss'ing all dialect books. Gary ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language varieties Stan, you wrote (above): > I would like to present the next exhibit, > your honors, namely, the humble sound /i/, i.e. that > one usually spelled "ee" or "ea", etc. > It seems to me that many Aussies pronounced words such > as "beat" (maybe I'm wrong on the example, 'cause I > haven't figured out all the limitations) with an /i/ > that kind of starts with something else, something > more central. I tend to hear that as a diphthong, something like [Ii], especially after labials, as in "beat," "peat" or "meat." Helge, you wrote (above): > Sometimes foreigners who learn German have a > tendency to be hyper-correct, I have heard foreigners > pronouncing the town of Rostock as "Roschtock", though > German is fairly phonetic in compare to English it > still has a lot of deviations ! My all-time "favorite" is _Bundestag_ (the name of the German parliament) as pronounced by American and some British news people who want to demonstrate their German language prowess: "Bundeschta(a)k". They are not aware that there is a morpheme boundary there: _Bundes_ and _Tag_, that /st/ > [St] therefore does not apply. However, Helge, I have heard many a German say _Roschtock_, clearly because the etymology (which is Slavonic) is not transparent. People may be thinking of _Stock_ [StOk] 'stick' when they say it. Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 24 15:05:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 08:05:55 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Mike Aryunov Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (09) [E] Hi Lowlanders, At a first glance the word resembles the High German 'Knopf' with the similar meaning. So we can deduce: Knopf > knop[ka], where -ka is a diminutive suffix. On the other hand 'p' instead of 'pf' makes me think of Lowlandic rather than High German or Yiddish. The other possibility may be that 'pf' is very uncommon for Russian so it might have been modified by natives. It is interesting that -ke as diminutive is used also in Frisian (West & East) and Low Saxon. The West Frisian word for button is 'knopke'. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: Thursday, October 24, 2002 2:33 AM Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (09) [E] > > [Unicode] > > From: Mike-club > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] > > > ??????, ??????? ??????! > > ?? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? "??????"? ?????????, ??????? ?? > ????? > > ?? ???????????? ????? ??? ???????????????? (??????????????) ?????, ??? > > ??????? ?? ????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? > > > > Reinhard/Ron > > Ron, > My wife (a native) insists, it must be a German > loanword. Take it for what it?s worth, I suspect > it?s only a gut feeling of hers. > Mike Wintzer ---------- From: Antero Helasvuo Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] Dear Ron. I'm happy to tell you that your "garbled garbage" reached me quite ungarbled. I'm using Eudora e-mail on Windows 98 platform with the Scandinavian character set. When I made a reply in preview mode by highlighting the Russian portion of your letter the result was this: >??????, ??????? ??????! >?? ?????? ?????????? ??????????? ????? "??????"? ?????????, ??????? ?? ????? >?? ???????????? ????? ??? ???????????????? (??????????????) ?????, ??? >??????? ?? ????? ?? ????????? ????? ??????? However "replying" the whole letter it turned out this way: ?Y?????????,, ?????????????? ?????f???O??! ?'?< ?????????,?? ???,???????????????Z ?????????????????????? ?????????? "????????????"? ?~???,????????????, ????????? From: Wim > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (01) [E] > > Hi! > > About the word Opoe... that's the normal word for grandmother in > Salland, Eastern Netherlands. > Bye! > > Wim wkv at home.nl > [Wim Verdoold] > > ---------- > > From: Mathieu. van Woerkom > Subject: Etymology > > Kirstina Bray wrote: > > > I am new to the list and have found it very interesing so far. I > was > > wondering if anyone has come across the word "Opoe" in any of their > > language/ etymology research? My grandmother, who is of Frisian > decent > > (she was born in Jubbega, near It Hearrenfean) requested that my > > brother and I call her 'Opoe', while living in Australia, instead > of > > 'Nanna' which we had previously called her from Canada. As we > know, > > "Beppe" is Grandmother in Frisian, and "Oma" is Grandmother in > > Nederlander. My family and I have been puzzling over the language/ > > etymological source of "Opoe" for some years now, and I would be > > greatful to anyone who may be able to shed light on the issue. > > Hello Kirstina, > > as far as I know, _opoe_ is Urban Frisian for _granny_ (Urban Frisian > is a > dialect group which is strongly influenced by Dutch, it developed in > the > major > towns of Friesland, e.g. Leeuwarden, Heerenveen, Dokkum, Sneek, > Harlingen, > Franeker etc.) You can read about it at our new project site > 'Lowlands Talk' > at > http://lowlands-l.net/talk > > By the way, another Dutch word for _granny_ is _opoe_ as well... > (grandpa & > grandma = opa & opoe / opa & oma) > > Regards, > Mathieu ==================================END=================================== > * Please submit postings to . > * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. > * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. > * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") > are > to be sent to or at > . > ======================================================================= ===== ~~"Imagination is the foundation of Knowledge"~~ Albert Einstein (balancing instinct and logic :) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 24 20:03:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:03:32 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gustaaf Van Moorsel gvanmoor at aoc.nrao.edu Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (01) [E] Ron wrote: > My all-time "favorite" is _Bundestag_ (the name of the German parliament) as > pronounced by American and some British news people who want to demonstrate > their German language prowess: "Bundeschta(a)k". They are not aware that > there is a morpheme boundary there: _Bundes_ and _Tag_, that /st/ > [St] > therefore does not apply. A little off the sibilant subject, my favorite morpheme boundary mistake by English speakers is Luf-thansa. Gustaaf ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 24 20:25:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 13:25:27 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= [Unicode] From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (02) [E] > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language varieties > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Does any of you know if the Russian word _knopka_ 'button' is a > loanword, > and, if so, if its origin is Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or Dutch, or > could > it be Yiddish? The word appears to be a diminutive derivation > (_-ka_). LS > and Dutch have _knoop_ for 'button'. Yiddish has _knop_ for 'button', > often > _knepele_ in the diminutive. > > Other Slavonic languages for 'button': > Belarusian: guzik > Bulgarian: kopche, buton > Croatian: dugme > Czech: knoflik (< German _Knopf_?), tla??tko > Polish: guzik > Serbian: dugme > Slovak: gomb?k, tla??tko > Slovene: gump, glavi? Dear Ron, In Flemish we say "knopke / knopka" or "knoptje". There is also "ne knop" plural: knop'n. Greatings Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] Dear Reinhard, > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language varieties > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Does any of you know if the Russian word _knopka_ 'button' is a loanword, > and, if so, if its origin is Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or Dutch, or could > it be Yiddish? The word appears to be a diminutive derivation (_-ka_). LS > and Dutch have _knoop_ for 'button'. Yiddish has _knop_ for 'button', often > _knepele_ in the diminutive. I cannot give an answer to your question, but let me ask a very tiny thing about your message question. Dutch "knop" originally was a sphere shaped object (on a pin) to open things like drawers and doors or to use as a switch, and this later became to mean also to a button to press on machines. Dutch "knoop" is knot, but also a button on clothes. Which of the ones is meant with Russian _knopka_? Kind regards, Floor. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Hoi, Floor! > Which of > the ones is meant with Russian _knopka_? I found the following glosses under _knopka_ (??????): 1. key 2. knob 3. pin 4. push-button 5. push-pin 6. snap 7. stud Under _pugovica_ (????????) I found only 'button'. In a word, I'm not sure and leave it to someone more knowledgeable. I have a feeling that _pugovica_ corresponds to Dutch and LS _knoop_. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 03:46:03 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 20:46:03 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (01) [E] On Monday 21 October 2002 12:08, Cr?ost?ir wrote: > "Eh" seems to be spreading heavily in Perth. I picked it up from there and > now use it all the time, eh. Perth natives tend to see it as very New > Zealand in origin, through a New South Wales medium, eh. :) I think it's a > great tag. Must be a Commonwealth thing. There is a joke around here (which is close to Alberta) about the spelling of Canada: C, eh? N, eh? D, eh? There is a similar pattern is some US speakers where every sentence is ended on a rising pitch like a question, but there is no tag added. It can be difficult to tell if it is a declarative sentence or really a question. bowman ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E] On Monday 21 October 2002 17:02, Reinhard wrote: > One phrase I remember from the former is "Emma Chisitt?" for "How > much is it?" ?They are kind of silly (in part because of deliberately moved > word boundaries), but they are intertaining enough to have been sold well. It took me a while to make the connection between the two phrases. I have never seen the original, but I was always skeptical that 'Mad Max' had to be dubbed for the US market -- until I saw 'Sexy Beast', I though it was just me, but walking out of the theatre, more than one person mentioned subtitles would have been nice. Not quite BBC English. bowman ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 14:31:45 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:31:45 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.25 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Global Moose Translations Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] Am I right in assuming that the Canadian "eh?" is derived from the French "hein"? Gabriele Kahn ---------- From: Helge Tietz Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] May I add to the "eh"-discussion that there is one dialect in the UK which has uses an "eh" in the end of every sentence and that is the one of the City of Carlisle in Cumbria, the locals put a short "ae" almost at any sentence they say, like "that's really weird, ae"... . The dialect of Carlisle is is many respects similar to Northumbrian but has distinctive characteristics and is influenced by the northern Cumbrian dialects as well. They, for instance, swop the "h", they drop the h in words as house, therefore pronouncing it "oose" but add one in words like "oil" making it sound like "hoil". ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] Dear all, bowman wrote: "a similar pattern is some US speakers where every sentence is ended on a rising pitch like a question, but there is no tag added. It can be difficult to tell if it is a declarative sentence or really a question." I use "eh" to take the edge of a sentence... e.g., "Oh, that's really bad, eh..." I always think of it more as "hey" than "eh". An earlier contributor postulated that Canadians in Australia may have brough the tag with them although I'm not so sure. I picked it up from South African friends (who had also spent time in Zambia) in Perth - the parents were Afrikaans speakers and the children English monoglots. Everyone I quizzed about "eh" origin in Western Australia firmly stuck to a New Zealand via New South Wales origin. Does it occur in Afrikaans (especially Cape Town "Coloured" Afrikaans if there is such a variant)? I think there is definitely some cause to classify "eh" as a general Commonwealth (specifically ex-dominion) English feature. I have never heard it in Britain or Ireland. "innit" seems to enjoy comparative currency to "eh" in England these days, e.g., "Oh, that's really bad, innit..." but that is a very modern development (last ten years) from south London working class English as far as I know - easy to track. Of course, there is the very real possibility that South Africans, New Zealanders or Australians might have transplanted "eh" to Canada. Immigration between dominions in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries was extensive and frequently underestimated. Go raibh maith agaibh, Cr?ost?ir. ---------- From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (05) [E] At 08:46 PM 10/24/02 -0700, robert bowman wrote: >Must be a Commonwealth thing. There is a joke around here (which is close to >Alberta) about the spelling of Canada: C, eh? N, eh? D, eh? There is a >similar pattern is some US speakers where every sentence is ended on a >rising pitch like a question, but there is no tag added. It can be >difficult to >tell if it is a declarative sentence or really a question. A fellow musician of mine and I used to have names for several of the various keys, such as the Key of Enlightenment (G), the Key of Revelation (C), the Key of Existence (B), and the Key of Canada (A). Of course, Homer Simpson has Canadian roots (true fact), which is why we say "Cana-duh". Yes, the rising pattern is sometimes what gives us away in the States, even when we studiously avoid the "eh" word. My problem in adapting to Canadian is that I still get the "root" word wrong, which is pronounced "rute" instead of "ruet" here. This despite constant mocking by my wife, together with my pronunciation of "helicopter" and "plaza". Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Language varieties As for rising intonation, I find this to occur in Australian English as well, especially in women's speech, more consistently and universally in many Irish, especially Northern Irish dialects of English. When I was new to the United States, having come from Australia, I would sometimes also use rising intonation in statements, and people would occasionally ask me if it was a question. My theory is that rising intonation in statements is a further development of constructions with tag questions (e.g., "..., isn't it?"), where the tag is omitted. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 14:38:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:38:13 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (04) [E] About knoop en knop. Knoopje, knopje. Hi! Knopje or knop, means button in Dutch as in a button on machines. Knoop means button as on your jacket. And "in de knoop" means tangled. Like when a rope gets mixed up. There are many words that have to do with boats sails and ropes too that went to Russia with Tzar Peter. After he left Zaandam. Where he learned to build ships... So that word might be Dutch.. Wim. wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.24 (04) [E] Dear Lowlanders: Just a guess-- One of the oldest form of buttons is the button knot, still used some in China and in patient hospital gowns. Jorge Potter ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Etymology Jorge, > One of the oldest form of buttons is the button knot, still used some in > China and in patient hospital gowns. I think you are right. First, people used pins (brooches) or laces to tie together their clothes, and then they invented a knot that could be pushed through a hole --the ancestor of the button. Yes, it's still used in traditonal Chinese clothing and also in some Western clothing at different times of fashion. Isn't that what is called a "frog"? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 16:35:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:35:46 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.25 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Language Varieties Hello All Cr?ost?ir wrote about 'innit' being a South London development which has spread within the last ten years. I'm a North East Londoner and I can remember fellow students laughing at me saying that when I first went to university, in 1989 - a bit shocked to think that it might be a development from the wrong side of the Thames :) To revenge myself for comments about English speakers' pronunciations of 'Rostock' and 'Bundestag', my personal favourites from German pronunciations of English have to be 'willitch' (village) and especially 'wally ball' (volley ball). These make me chuckle every time I hear them! Also Gabriele mentioned about dropping her 'r's and 'l's , and mentioned that the r was retained in farm. She'll be pleased to know that in London we too drop our r's and l's as often as possible, and I would never pronounce the r in farm! Think I can get away with this one - three different subjects in one mail. I think they've all previously appeared as 'Language Varieties' so I hope I don't experience the 'wrath of Ron' :) (Just kidding - you do a great job!) Gary ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 16:37:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:37:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.23 (06) [E/(Russian)] Sorry about that, Ron. Here's the same message, minus all the Cyrillic. I don't know why it didn't come through, and I really don't know how to change the encoding. I was able to read the Cyrillic and diacritics in your original message. Kevin Caldwell ------------------ I don't know the origin of "knopka", but have always assumed it is a loanword. Any of the possible origins you proposed would make sense (Dutch from the days of Peter the Great, LS from the days of the Hanseatic League, Yiddish from the large Jewish population). "Knopka" only applies to a button you push, or to a knob of any kind. A button on clothing is "pugovitsa". Also, the Russian word for Yiddish is "idish". Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net) > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Language varieties > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Does any of you know if the Russian word _knopka_ 'button' is a > loanword, and, if so, if its origin is Lowlands Saxon (Low German) or > Dutch, or could it be Yiddish? The word appears to be a diminutive > derivation (_-ka_). LS > and Dutch have _knoop_ for 'button'. Yiddish has _knop_ for 'button', > often > _knepele_ in the diminutive. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Fri Oct 25 16:55:36 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 09:55:36 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault gmg at direct.ca Subject: political speak Hi all! Thanks for the comments on Hanseatic north German and stage speech. Fascinating! I have also heard that Prussians tend to pronounce high German more tensely and with a higher pitch in general than do south Germans. Is this true? and if so, is it limited to Prussia or is it a general north German feature? Has anyone else got examples of "quirky" political speecch/informal political labeling? My examples: a "lefty" is a usually affectionate or friendly/humorous term for a left handed person - but a "leftie" is a hostile term for a political left winger - yet I don't recall ever hearing of a "righty" or a "rightie." Calling someone "a Green" is merely descriptive, but "a greenie" is hostile. Calling them "green" adjectivily is ambiguous - it could mean inexperienced or jealous - and might not be a political label at all. "yellow" means cowardly and by extension a "yellow dog" contract means an agreement not to join a union as part of the terms of employment. (The Gaelic for yellow dog "cu buaidh" is an extreme insult). If you call someone "red all over" you probably mean that they are embarresed - but you might mean to insult them as being a communist - and if you say they are "a red" you definitely are. You are in the "pink" if you are healthy - but being "pink" means pro-communist (without admitting to it) There is a political "red" as a noun - but no reddie. No-one is a "pink" either politically - or a "pinkie" either - they are a "pinko!" "Blue" as an personal adjective means sad - but in Quebec it can mean a political conservative - and "true blue" definitely means this throughout Canada. In Quebec a conservative can even be called "a blue." Among political insiders, (but not yet the general population) blue is increasingly used both as a noun and as an adjective to mean "right wing(er) as distinct from "red" as an adjective to mean "moderate conservative!" as distinct from a blue - and as short for "red Tory." No-one calls themselves "a red" - this is still means communist - but they might well say "I'm a red Tory" as this is purely descriptive. Amazingly enough, there are even finer gradations - as some say "powder blue" for slightly right wing conservatives - and "powder pink" (note: NOT "powder red") for slightly left of conservative centre. (If that isn't quirky enough "reform" or "a reformer" in Canadian political jargon means a right wing populist (usually to the right of blue Tories!) and while "progressive" or "a progressive" still means left wing - the official name of the oldest and formerly largest conservative party is the "Progressive Conservative" party. So a"Progressive Conservative" no emphasis means a member or supporter of this party, but PROGRESSIVE conservative means "red Tory." To most media and general Canadian population "Tory" means Progressive Conservative as a description - but some Eastern European descended conservative friends of mine claim it sounds like Anglo exclusivity to them - and they refuse to use it - believing it is derogatory (no pun intended). In the US "Tory" means someone who opposed the American Revolution - but a conservative Democrat can be called either a Tory Democrat (at least in some southern states - or - once more with colour - a blue dog or blue dog Democrat!" Left wing political insiders are also colouring their world -as brown is emerging as an adjective and sometimes a noun for socialists of the less green or anti-green faction. (The educated public knows all about red Tories - but hasn't heard of "brown" politics yet - only of "brownshirts" which means Nazi or neo-Nazi. "White" is merely racially descriptive - but "whitie" is insulting - and "white sheets" are Ku Klux Klan or other white racists. ("skinhead" has the same meaning - but many skinheads are anarchists and really hate this usage) I have not heard other colour words used politically - but "orange" or "orangeman" means Irish/Ulster Protestant or one descended or in sympathy with them - and this could certainly have political connotations. (The opposite is "green" meaning Irish Catholic of course - and having nothing to do with ecology.) "Environmentalist" is a broader term than "green" ("Green" is an official party name) and non-Green environmentalists are starting to call themselves "conservationists" (the old term for environmentalist) to distinguish themselves from those they consider too extreme who they label as "preservationists." Sometimes a term starts as hostile - but is expropriated by its targets. I suspect this of "brown" in the non-green socialist context. A clear example in Canada is "Grit" - coined by the Liberals as a self description ("men of clear grit") it became archaic and is now used only by their blood foes the Tories. Those who support the competing newer and larger conservative party were "reform" as an adjective, or the "reformers" previously mentioned - but now are "alliance" (from the Canadian Alliance) USED AS AN ADJECTIVE. On the other hand, some people who are alliance will say "I'm reform" or "reform at heart" to emphasize their populist or western regional roots/sympathies. Black is a descriptive racial term but to left wingers "a black Tory" used to mean a really fierce or right wing one. To everyone else, it means a Tory of African descent. (one was a federal Cabinet Minister) I have heard "schwarz" means conservative in Germany. Is this still the case? In U.S. politics as well as Canadian "thumper" short for "Bible thumper" is a hostile term for conservative Christian while So-con at least in Canada, now means "social conservative" as opposed to "libertarian" which means conservative only on fiscal matters. The opposite of a Reaganite is a Rino (Republican in name only - perhaps a take off on the party symbol being an elephant). One is a Bush Republican or a McCain Republican - but not apparently a "Bushite" the corredct term appears to nbe "Bushie" - but oddly enough this diminutive is NOT derogatory (perhaps a case of reverse takeover, like "brown"? People still call themselves Thatcherites (even in Canada). "Winger" has become shorthand for a right winger in Canada - I don't know about the states. We do call Liberals "libs" - with no value judgement attached - but we don't call conservatives "cons." A "libber" is not a Liberal, but a women's liberationist" - and "libber" IS a derogatory term. I have heard the Democrats called the dems - but I don't think the Republicans get called the "Reps" - as with the noun "pink" - a flower - probably because the semantic territory is fully occupied. In British Columbia we currently have a rather laughable dilemma. Having a right wing provincial BC Liberal government, and a centre left Liberal Party of Canada federal government (to which the BC Liberal Party is not affiliated - the adjective "Liberal" has two totally different (some would argue virtually opposite) meanings, depending on the context. Someone here can literally say "I'm a Liberal - but of course I hate the Liberals." (Meaning the other ones). Americans visiting our province used to get even more confused when we had a right wing government called "Social Credit" and later a socialist government called the "New Democrats" - which in the US meant less liberal more centrist democrats! Is it just us - or are there quirky political labels elsewhere too? Alle die beste George ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Labels Tschortsch, > I have also heard that Prussians tend to pronounce high German more tensely > and with a higher pitch in general than do south Germans. Is this true? and if > so, is it limited to Prussia or is it a general north German feature? Vere on ers haff you hert zat?! Are you shua it isn't b??st on a Hollyvoot monocled stereotype or on ze affektet speetsch mote in Tscherman movies off ze Tventies unt S?rties? ("Prussian" = "Kaiserreich"?) Vateva you are talking about, I don't sink it exists in zis d?? unt ??tsche, if it eva existet in ze f?rst pl??s. > high German more tensely > and with a higher pitch Jawohl! Zat's vy it's kollt "High Tsch?rmen"! :) Greetinks! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 00:18:33 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:18:33 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: language varieties Hoi allemaal, Good one Gary! I really enjoy hearing the Germans say village and volleyball too. I like to give them sentences like this to say: There are very violent videos available in the village. The three thrifty Thespians thought that they were thinking. I enjoy hearing them try to say the "th" and the "v". Kevin Browne ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: Language Varieties Gary wrote: "To revenge myself for comments about English speakers' pronunciations of 'Rostock' and 'Bundestag', my personal favourites from German pronunciations of English have to be 'willitch' (village) and especially 'wally ball' (volley ball). These make me chuckle every time I hear them!" Dear Gary, Yeah right! Makes me cringe every time, too. Another one is /O:lb?rt/, and /O:lfrIt/ for Albert and Alfred. Or /melb?:rn/ for Melbourne. Many realise the final vowel of Sidney and Harvey as a diphthong /ei/: /sidnei/, /ha:(r)vei/ => I hate it - and living in a German speaking country I`m often exposed to it. Wery vell, until next time, Dan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology So it's "Bash-the-Boche Day," is it? ;) Kevin: > I enjoy hearing them try to say the "th" and the "v". I see ... So you like to watch them suffer, huh? Ain't that just lovely?! Daniel: > /sidnei/, /ha:(r)vei/ => I hate it - and living in a German speaking > country I`m often exposed to it. You should be grateful for not being Harvey from Sydney. (But then again, ['sIdneI] can be correct for "Sydney" ...) (By the way, many Australians pronounce "Sydney" as "Sinny" ...) But seriously, folks ... (Yes, we always find something "scientific" in everything, don't we?) The phonological processing of foreign words and languages are an interesting topic, especially where languages are as closely related as "ours" are. So far we have been brushing on mistaken morpheme boundaries (e.g., _Bundeschtag_), coping with non-native phonemes (e.g., _th_, _w_ [w]) or non-native phonemic distinctions (e.g., /v/ vs /w/), and with orthographic misinterpretations (e.g., Sidney, Harvey -- and that's not a hard mistake to make given the mess that is called "English orthography"). I'm sure there are more where they come from. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 00:20:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:20:16 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.25 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Holger Weigelt Subject: language survival Dear Lowlanders ! First let me quote a cut-out of sentences from recent mailings: .... Whilst looking for books in Germany on regional dialects, I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough - but then any books on the local dialect are usually to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious study of dialects I've found most of the books to be pretty useless....There are however a few humourous books on dialect out there which are also quite informative....So comedy dialects as a means of promoting a dialect - ok, but only if they're quite accurate....The kind of books I was talking about tend not to be serious, and they have the affect of making a joke out of the local dialect. As I went on to say, there are some excellent books out there about dialects - however, still too often classified as 'humourous'...."I just spent a few days in the L??neburger Heide, north-east of Hannover (Hanover if you must), and found Plattd????tsch to be alive and well there." ... tell us more about what you saw (and heard). I??d like some good news to be able to share your optimism. You say "alive and well". According to what you saw, what percentage of 0 to 20 year olds (who will be the active midlifers in 30 years time) are able to speak the language? Whenever I go home (Nordheide) I conclude that this percentage is approaching zero (certainly a small fraction of one percent). Looking forward to better news...." and there are not tens of millions of speakers but at the very, very most ten million." Ron, I meant 50 years ago. There must have been more 10 mio.? Whatever the old and new figures, the decline is dazzling. ...But I overheard some middle-aged people talking in Platt in a pub, and there were a great many books to be had, and it also appeared a lot in writing on brochures, posters, etc. I don't know about children, of course, but I had the impression that, at least in the villages, most people over thirty would be able to switch without a problem. And their children should at least have a passive knowledge (one hopes)....If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt... I look on Low Saxon from the special point of view of the Eastern Friesland variant but I think it isn't much better in other regions. Low Saxon is still alive - of course - but the number of competent speakers decreases rapidly. Programmes have been started to promote LS in kindergardens and schools but these aren't very effective. I doubt that any child will become a speaker of LS because of these programmes. Wherever LS is used outside it's familiar context (in advertising for example) it is regarded to be a joke. There is low acceptance of this language in the younger generation. I don't give LS any chance to survive as long as it is not accepted in all respects as a serious second language besides German for use in literature and journalism as well as in official documents. About a week ago I announced my new web-project on traditional festivities. This is mainly an attempt to show the East Friesians that their language is able to express more than some humourous stories. I want to collect much material on the subject for a presentation that can be regarded as popular scientific. My hope is to spread this idea and by this rise the appreciation of our language. An other point is knowledge about the language. Most speakers don't want to learn about their language - and in fact they know very little (even that they are speaking a language of it's own). They believe its enough to practise - theoretical learning seems too academic to them. Such learning however, I believe, is basical to improve practice and to develop the language for expanded use. Kind regards Holger ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 00:38:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 17:38:12 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 25.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Dear Lowlanders, Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word _makker_ and the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning 'friend', 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? (_Macker_ is also used in Missingsch, a sort of shibboleth and to many people's minds a low-class flag.) LS _Macker_ can also mean 'ringleader'. And then there is Scots _mak(e)_ for 'close friend', 'mate'? Any relation? Perhaps a permutation of _mate_? And then there is _makkar_ referring to the Scots poets of the 15th and 16th centuries, apparently derived from the verb _mak_ 'make', 'create'. The suffix _-er_ ought to derive an agent/actor from a verb, but *_mak-_? There is, however, the LS adjective _mack_ 'easy to handle', 'harmless', 'tame' (as of an animal), thus masculine _mack+er_. There is also _mackelig_ ~ _macklig_ ~ _makelk_ 'easy', 'cosy', 'slowly and relaxed', cf. Dutch _(ge)makelijk_ 'easily', German _gem?chlich_ 'slowly and relaxed'. Any input would be appreciated. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 17:35:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:35:41 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Leslie Decker Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] but a conservative Democrat can be > called either a Tory Democrat (at least in some southern states - or - once > more with colour - a blue dog or blue dog Democrat!" > Alle die beste George > > - I don't know about other areas of the American south, but in Texas we always say 'yellow-dog Democrat,' meaning 'I'd rather vote for a yellow dog (or a 'yeller' dog in certain areas) than a Republican.' Yellow dogs have been slowly dying out since the 60s, when the Democrats aligned themselves with the civil-rights movement. Groetjes Leslie Decker ---------- From: "Ian James Parsley" Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] George, Thanks for that, fascinating! Of course, since Kim Campbell in the late 80s Canadian politics has gone from being fairly straightforward for the outsider (particularly one used to the UK system) to being an utterly incomprehensible minefield! In Great Britain the colours are seldom used, other than 'true blue' for (fairly right-wing) Conservative and the attributive adjective 'red' (as in 'Red Ken', for London Mayor Ken Livingstone who won as an independent but was beforehand on the left of the Labour Party). 'Tory' is shorthand for 'Conservative', and not necessarily derogatory. The 'Liberal Democrats' (formerly 'Social and Liberal Democrats') are often known as the 'Liberals' or, more commonly and probably more accurately, as 'LibDems' (so spelled). If someone is 'liberal' that is usually a sociological stance, if they are 'a liberal' that means almost certainly a supporter of the 'LibDems'. (The British LibDems are considered left-wing, for the British Columbians among you!) In Scotland, of course, you get 'the Nats' for the Scottish Nationalists, also occasionally in Wales for supporters of Plaid Cymru. In Northern Ireland... let's not go there just now! Of course, the colours themselves vary across Europe. In Germany the conservative CDU/CSU is usually marked in black, but one also sees light blue (for example on www.election.de), and a supporter may be 'schwarz' - but of course if he travels 'schwarz' that means using public transport without paying! In Austria this is certainly the place - certainly pre-Haider people were 'schwarz' (for the conservative OVP) or 'rot' (for the social-democrat SPO) almost as zealously as they are 'Protestant' or 'Catholic' in Northern Ireland (but thankfully without the arms!) In the German-speaking world you then get a whole series of coalitions - literally 'red-green' (Social-Democrat/Green), 'red-yellow' (Social-Democrat/Free-Democrat[right-wing Liberal]), 'black-yellow' (conservative-Free-Democrat) etc - even 'red-red' in the east (Social-Democr at/PDS[ex-communist]) Now to square this circle for Lowlanders, we may return to the general different uses of colours. For example, in English you have a 'black eye', but in Scots as in German you have a 'blue eye'. Scots these days even seems to distinguish in usage between terms using 'blae' and others with 'blue'. We may go on - what colour is a tennis ball (yellow or green)? What colour is the sea (blue, green or grey)? Regards, Ian James Parsley Co Down, N. Ireland. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 17:53:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:53:23 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] Hi... Well,... about how foreigners handle the pronouncing of names.... the BBC and CNN have hired a chimpanzee to figure out how to pronounce Dutch names in news items. (Or it's a computer...?) I have heard. So I can imagine what they are doing to other languages.... If they can't even handle simple Dutch.... Bye! Wim wkv at home.nl [Wom Verdoold] ---------- From: Gary Taylor Subject: Phonology Dear All Just a couple more - there's always the Americans' pronunciations of place names like 'Blenheim' as if it were a German word, instead of 'Blennam' as we'd say in England, and also 'Worcestershire' given it's full value instead of England English, 'Woostersheer'. But then again I always say Michigan with a 'ch' instead of a 'sh' which I'm sure makes a number of Americans smile, and every time I see 'Yosemite' I say it 'Yos-a-mite' before I realise it's 'Ya-se-ma-tee'! And why do Germans always spell my name with two r's?... :) Gary ---------- >From Daniel Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subj.: LL-L "Phonology" Re.: Bash-the-boche-day; No offence, but it`s best to get it out of the system once in a while and be totally unscientific about it. We?re all second, third, and fourth (or more) language learners, and we know what it means to acquire the pronunciation of a foreign language or dialect. And once we pat ourselves on the back an realised how great we are, we open our mouths, and first question we get is "Where are you from...?" Dan ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Phonology Daniel: I'm not sure I understood what you meant above, but if you are referring to levity, I'm all for it (as long as it does not become our main focus), and I usually respond in kind. Gary: > And why do Germans always spell my name with two > r's?... :) Because there's only one "r". With only one "r" they are inclined to pronounce the vowel long. Folks, I caught myself phonologically overcompensating this morning. For people whose native or near-native languages consistently devoice final stops (e.g., German, Dutch, Polish and Russian) it is very difficult to learn *not* to devoice final voiced stops, and the next difficulty is to distinguish final voiceless phonemes from voiced ones. Once in a while, in English words I rarely use (especially when I'm tired or inattentive), I either devoice when it is not appropriate, or, more likely, I overcompensate by voicing voiceless final stops. Thus, this morning I said, "It's because she has no cloud" instead of "It's because she has no clout." Cheers! Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 17:55:48 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:55:48 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.26 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: James Mader Subject: Eh My father-in-law, who is orginally from Zeeland, Netherlands, told me once that some Zeelanders, instead of ja, say Eh in the affirmative. This would make sense on the end of a sentence. Being that Afrikaans has such a strong link to Dutch (my wife calls it Boer dutch) maybe this is a link? James L. Mader, Seoul Korea Legum servi sumus ut liberi esse possimus. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 17:57:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 10:57:38 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.26 (04) [LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Dan Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subject: LL.L "language survival" Moin Holger, As ik mi so`n beten ?ver Saterfreesch k?nnig maken wul, st?lter ik ?ver diin net-siid un dach mi, wo sch??n dat is maal wat eersthaftig in`t Plat to lesen. Diin artikels ?ver de algemeen tostand vun de spraak lees ik ook, un dach mi eerst wat dat drurig un pessimistisch vun di is, avers ik kun dat good verstaan, un du hest dat jaa ook bannig good r?verbrocht. Un wiil dat Fiete mi al in de oren ligt, wat ik di endlich maal scriven schal, do ik dat nu. As ik dat v??r en paar weken al bi Leeglannen schreef, mut de spraak apenbaar eerst maal fast verswinnen eer dat sik de l?? daar algemeen ?ver klaar warrn, wat daar en wichtig bestanddeel vun eer kultuur en beek r?nnergaait. Ik gl??v, wat in Oostfreesland de spraak angaait, Platd??tsch fast beter daar staait as in annere Platte rebeden, drurig noog, wat een immernoch de indruk het, dat sik de spraak nich verhalen daait. Ik h??r avers, wat dat in Oostvreesland eerster daag en aktjoon geef, woneem de platsnakkers bi de aarbaid opf?ddert weren, ?ver de "Platte Daag" Oostvreesch midenanner to praten, un dat ook mid de, wat gar ni Plat k??nt, avers dat verstaan doot. Ook de Kundschap schull tweesprakig begr??tt warrn, un waneer se niks nich tegen hebt, dat Plat snakt warrt, schull een dat ook doon. Ik meen nat??rlich nich, wat dat de spraak redden kan, avers dat is maal en anvang. Vundaag hebt wi ook de emstige schangs en "native" Plat an de neegste generatjoon widertogeven, un twaarsten mid en "aktjoon" "Groot?llern snakt Plat mid jemeer grootkinners". Villicht k??nt se jaa mid eer grootkinners wedder good maken, wat se mid eer kinners nich maakt harrn, n??mlich Plat snakken. As en olen keltoplile kan ik bloots berichten, wo dat in de Bretagne mid de Bretoonschsnakkers weer. De l?? de Bretoonsch k??nt un so oold s?nd as ik (knap 30) hebt de spraak nich vun eer ?llern leert, s?nnern vun jemeer Bretoonsch grootmodder, de mid?nner gaar keen Franz??sch snak. Mennigmaal hebt de groot?llern ook mid vliit Bretoonsch snakt, wiil dat de ?llern gaar nich so wullen. S?rr 1950 bet 1960 warrt jaa de spraak gaar ni meer widergeven, wat nat??rlich hen to`n sprakenkollaps in`t ganse Bretoonsche rebeet v??r. H??todaags gift privaatscholen de wedder op Bretoonsch ?nnerrichten, avers de Franz??sche staat het daar wat tegen, un so is dat gaar ni so licht dat vun de native-speaker generatjoon op de jungen widertogeven. Dat widergeven vun de groot?llern na de grootkinners hen het also de sprakendood tonminst een generatjoon verleet. Uns Schottisch-Leegl?ndsche vr?nden beklaagt jaa ook dat wedderbeleevde Scots minnhaftig is un bloots en ?versett Ingelsch. Ik harr de indruk du s??st dat in betrek op Platd??tsch un Hoochd??tsch ook so. Ik see dat nich so d??ster. Ook waneer dat an anvang as en ?versetten klingt, warrt de l?? meer un meer apen v?r dat orginaal, wat snakt warrt un schreven w??r, un so leert se dat ook wedder. Nu mag dat juun Noordd??tschen gaar ni so opvallen, avers wat de hoge ?mgangsspraak in Noordd??tschland angaait, is dat v?r en S??dd??tschen gans klaar, woveel Plat daar egentlich binnen is, also is ?versetten, mid en paar extras, gaar ni so verkeert, wat meent ji? Wedder en bispel ut dat keltische rebeet: Fiete weet jaa, wat daar mit Koornsch wat an`n hood hef. In Cornwall is de spraak jaa ?m 1800 as gemeeinschaftsspraak utstorven (verenkelte l?? kunnen noch en paar brokken, bet in de fr?jen jaren vun`t 20. jaarhunnert). 1904 begun de wedderbeleven vun de spraak. Ut de literatuur un vun uptekens, as ook vun dialektw??r in Koornsche Ingelsch, het een de spraak teemlich akraat rekonstrueert un wedderbeleft. Mid en paar loffpriisde utnamen, weer dat meeste, wat in de fr?jen jaren screven w??r, en ?versett Ingelsch. Avers h??todaags het dat Koornsche we`er qualit?t, nich j?mmers, avers oft noog. Koornisch vun h??t is veel dichter bi`t traditjonelle Koornsch, as Evrit an`t ole Hebr?isch to`n bispel. Wat ik daar mid seggen w?l is, nich opgeven, een kan siin spraaklige Arfschop wedderkrigen. Dan. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 18:24:49 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 11:24:49 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.26 (05) [E/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Etymology" > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word > _makker_ and the > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning 'friend', > 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? (_Macker_ is also used in Missingsch, a sort of > shibboleth and to many people's minds a low-class flag.) LS _Macker_ can > also mean 'ringleader'. And then there is Scots _mak(e)_ for 'close > friend', 'mate'? Any relation? Perhaps a permutation of _mate_? > And then > there is _makkar_ referring to the Scots poets of the 15th and 16th > centuries, apparently derived from the verb _mak_ 'make', 'create'. "Makar" simply means "maker". However, in Scots the verb "mak" (or "make" in a few dialects) is used to refer to the act of creating an artistic work, so can take on the meaning of "to author", and therefore the noun "makar" corresponds to "author" in English. Its use with a capital as in "the Makars" signifies a group of poets who wrote rather grand works in Middle Scots with a distinctive diction aimed at educated patrons, but without capitals it can mean any sort of author, so that, for example, in Robert Louis Stevenson's poem "The Maker to Posterity", he's referring to himself as the author of the poem, and we see the application of the verb in James Lumbsden's play "Toorle" where one of the characters in talking about a poem, says, "Burns made it", with the meaning "Burns wrote/authored it". A more general word for the act of creation in Scots is "shup" (also "shap" and "shape"). Hence in Cameron's translation of Genesis we read, "I' the ingang God shuppit the hevin and the erd" for "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth". Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (07) [E] Lowlands-L heeft op zaterdag, 26 okt 2002 om 02:38 (Europe/Brussels) het volgende geschreven: > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Dear Lowlanders, > > Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word _makker_ > and the > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning > 'friend', > 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? (_Macker_ is also used in Missingsch, a sort > of > shibboleth and to many people's minds a low-class flag.) LS _Macker_ > can > also mean 'ringleader'. And then there is Scots _mak(e)_ for 'close > friend', 'mate'? Any relation? Perhaps a permutation of _mate_? And > then > there is _makkar_ referring to the Scots poets of the 15th and 16th > centuries, apparently derived from the verb _mak_ 'make', 'create'. > > The suffix _-er_ ought to derive an agent/actor from a verb, but > *_mak-_? > There is, however, the LS adjective _mack_ 'easy to handle', > 'harmless', > 'tame' (as of an animal), thus masculine _mack+er_. There is also > _mackelig_ ~ _macklig_ ~ _makelk_ 'easy', 'cosy', 'slowly and > relaxed', cf. > Dutch _(ge)makelijk_ 'easily', German _gem?chlich_ 'slowly and > relaxed'. Dear Ron, My Flemish explenation for it is : "maken" has a lot of meanings. One of these is... V: We gaon da ne ke? maok'n = doen passen (E: to make sure that it fits, to match) So "makker" could mean that these two people 'match' together or that they are equal to each other. "gemak'lik(V) "(D: gemakkelijk) = E: easily, without pain. We have a verb:"makkeren(V)" which means, to be good friends with. V: Ze makk'rn wel te goare = They are good friends. Another verb : "makken(V)" (makk'n)= to match, or to be tame. V: Ze makk'n lik hond'n en katt'n. E:They match together like dogs and cats. Groetjes, Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (07) [E] Ron wrote: "Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word _makker_ and the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning 'friend', 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? (_Macker_ is also used in Missingsch, a sort of shibboleth and to many people's minds a low-class flag.) LS _Macker_ can also mean 'ringleader'. And then there is Scots _mak(e)_ for 'close friend', 'mate'? Any relation? Perhaps a permutation of _mate_? And then there is _makkar_ referring to the Scots poets of the 15th and 16th centuries, apparently derived from the verb _mak_ 'make', 'create'. The suffix _-er_ ought to derive an agent/actor from a verb, but *_mak-_? There is, however, the LS adjective _mack_ 'easy to handle', 'harmless', 'tame' (as of an animal), thus masculine _mack+er_. There is also _mackelig_ ~ _macklig_ ~ _makelk_ 'easy', 'cosy', 'slowly and relaxed', cf. Dutch _(ge)makelijk_ 'easily', German _gem?chlich_ 'slowly and relaxed'. Any input would be appreciated. Regards, Reinhard/Ron" Moin Ron, To "makker/Macker hef ik niks nich funnen, bloots "Macke" un dat k?mt vun Jiddisch un Hebr?isch. Ik denk avers nich wat dat midenanner wat to doon het. Also daar kan ik di ook ni widerh?lpen. Schottisch "mak" gift dat as en veerb un as en nomen. As veerb het dat nat??rlich de like w?rtel as Ingl. "make", vun daar k?mt ook "makar" or "makkar" (Collins English Dic. Scots variant of "maker"). Twaars s??t "mak" so ut as keem dat vun "mak" (Schot. Maken), avers ik denk mi wat dat G?lisch is un vun "mac" = s??n k?mt. De plural vun "mac" allerdings warrt jaa as en schimpwoord v??r de "Iren" or de Katoolschen slechthen bruukt. Collins segt twaars wat dat vun "Michael" k?mt doch gl??v ik dat ni so recht. Ik meen dat k?mt vun G?lisch. Avers keen weet, villicht is dat jaa ook mine keltophili, nich? Alens gode, Dan ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.25 (07) [E] Hi! About Makker. My dictionairy says: makker (1565), typisch hollands woord, waarschijnlijk met de verbreide er- uitgang (Vergelijk bakker en herder)uit een ouder woord zoals oud engels gemaecca, maat, reisgenoot. (nieuw engels match) oud saksisch gimako, oud hoog duits, gimahho. "maat" >From Etymologisch woordenboek. By J de Vries/ F de Tollenaere. (het Spectrum)(isbn 90 274 2947 2) So makker is matcher...lol. well it isn't. the meanings of words changed in the last 1200 years. Hope this was any help.. Bye, Wim. wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for your responses, folks! Sandy: > A more general word for the act of creation in Scots is > "shup" (also "shap" and "shape"). Hence in Cameron's > translation of Genesis we read, "I' the ingang God > shuppit the hevin and the erd" for "In the beginning > God created the heavens and the earth". Same thing in Lowlands Saxon (Low German): /maak-/ _maken_ ['mQ:kN=] vs. /Saap-/ _schapen_ ['SQ:pm=], also Dutch _maken_ vs. _scheppen_, Afrikaans _maak_ vs. _skep_, and German _machen_ vs. _schaffen_ and _sch?pfen_ (> _Gesch?pf_ 'creature'); English cognates: "make" and "shape" (and "scoop"?), Scots cognates: _mak_ and _shap(e)_ ~ _shup_ (and _scuip_ ~ _scob_?) respectively. Thus, LS Genesis 1 (past perfect): "An'n Anfang hett Gott den Heven (~ Himmel) un de Eerd' maakt ~ schapen." or (preterite): "An'n Anfang maak (~ m??k) ~ schaap (~ sch??p) Gott den Heven (~ Himmel) un de Eerd'." (In German, _schaffen_ also means 'to get (something) done', 'to do (successfully)', but then the preterite is regular _schaffte_ and past participial _geschafft_, vs. _schuf_ and _geschaffen_ for 'to create'.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 20:57:58 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 13:57:58 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (02) [E] One must remember that Dutch is extremely difficult for us Americans because we are not familiar with the British ou as in "out" and oe that does not sound exactly like book. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 21:06:06 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:06:06 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] At 10:35 AM 10/26/02 -0700, Ian Parsley wrote: Now to square this circle for Lowlanders, we may return to the general different uses of colours. For example, in English you have a 'black eye', but in Scots as in German you have a 'blue eye'. Scots these days even seems to distinguish in usage between terms using 'blae' and others with 'blue'. We may go on - what colour is a tennis ball (yellow or green)? What colour is the sea (blue, green or grey)? I never heard an expression using the phrase "blue streak" until I came to Canada. As in "talking up a blue streak" (talking on and on about something). Ed Alexander JAG REALTY INC. 80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1 Pager: 905-312-5204 Fax: 905-525-6671 www.jagrealty.com ED'S FUNDRAISER PAGE: http://www.deerhurst.com/fundraiser ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica Ed, Lowlanders, The few times I have heard people use the phrase "to talk up a blue streak" (yes, Canadians, I believe) I interpreted it as denoting something like "to talk up a storm," i.e., 'to talk a lot and in a very animated manner'. Apparently I "over-interpreted" it. Oops! But I seem to remember that my over-interpretation did fit within the contexts in which I heard the phrase used. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 21:53:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:53:39 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.26 (08) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology A "makker" is rather a "matchmaker" than a "whoremonger" (pun intended), that's how I would like to synthesize the following explanation *s*. First some English data : 1) from http://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=Make MAKE (Page: 885) Make (?), n. [AS. maca, gemaca. See Match.] A companion; a mate; often, a husband or a wife. [Obs.] For in this world no woman is Worthy to be my make. Chaucer. 2) from The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology : MATCH1 A. mate, fellow OE.; person equal or corresponding XIII; B. matching of adversaries XIV; contest; matrimonial alliance XVI. OE. gem?cca :- Gmc. *Gamakjan-, rel. to *Gamakan- (OE. gemaca, dial. make match, mate; corr. to OS. gimaco, OHG. gimahho fellow, equal), sb. use of *Gamakaz (OE. gem?c, OHG. gimah well-matched, G. gemach easy, comfortable), f. *Ga- Y- + *mak- fitting, see MAKE. Hence match vb. join as a pair or one of a pair in marriage, combat, etc. XIV. Now some Flemish data : 1) from Algemeen Vlaamsch Idioticon : MAKKEN, vanwaar : makker, bet. omstr. Kortrijk : vriendmaken. Het is een andere uitspraak van maken, dat Kil. vert. door : transigere, pacisci, componere en conciliare. MAKKE m., iemand die mak is, d.i. een korte, dikke, stijve of trage jongen : toe, makke, kom wat gauwer. Hij is een eerse makke of luiaard (Brab. en elders). Het woord is verwant met maf (sic) en met gemak. 2) from Loquela : MAKKEN, makte, gemakt. = Overeen komen, mak zijn of worden tegenover malkaar.- Die twee en makken niet. Zij makken lijk honden en katten. Geh. Eecloo. Het w. makken is in 't Engelsch vertegenwoordigd door to match en verwant aan maken, maat, gemak, enz. 3) from Nederland Etymologisch Woordenboek : MAKKER znw. m. Het oudste voorbeeld is mackerscap in 1565 (Scheveningen): Kiliaen kent holl. macker, maar geeft als bet. op maggher 'koopman'. Dit zal wel gelijke te stellen zijn aan mangher, dat evenals mnd. manger, oe. mangere < mlat. *mangarius naast manganus, vgl. os. mangon, oe. mangian 'handel drijven' < mlat. mangonare. - Dit woord verklaart echter noch de vorm noch de betekenis van makker, dat men eerder zal moeten verbinden met os. gimako, ohd. gimahho, oe. gemaca 'maat, makker' (en gem?cca 'maat, genoot, echtgenoot'), waarvoor zie verder : gemak en maken. - > nhd. macker 'wie een ander gezelschap houdt' (sedert 1771, vgl. Kluge, Seemannsprache 563). So, a "makker" is somebody who "matches you". Whereas "ne m??t" (B), "een maat" (D), "a mate" (E) is originally not just somebody you mate with, but rather somebody you ate "meat" with...which on its turn was primarily done with a knife, a so called "mes" in Dutch or a "Messer" in German...which was actually a "meteseax" in Old English, where the second part denotes a "cutter", the word after which Sachsen, Sassen and Saksen have been named...the circle is round *s*... Greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for your input, too, Luc! So I assume it is correct to assume the following: Germanic */mak(j)-/ *makjon ~ *makjan *'to match' > *gamakjon ~ *gamakjan *'matched' > *'fit', *'suitable' > Old Saxon _(ge)maca_ 'mate', 'companion' (>) Old English _gem?cca_ 'mate', 'companion' > Modern English "match" Scots _mak(e)_ 'mate', 'companion' Modern Dutch _makker_ 'matchmaker' > 'merchant' ~ 'mate' Modern Lowlands Saxon _mack_ 'fit (to handle)', 'tame' _Macker_ ~ _makker_ ('matchmaker' > 'merchant' ~) 'mate' Scots did not participate in k-palatalization (we find in English and Frisian), hence (OE _gem?cca_ >) ME "match" = MS _mak(e)_, (Greek _kurikon_ > Germanic *_kirika_ > OE _cir(i)ce_ >) ME "church", MS _kirk_ (WFries _tserke_). Luc: > So, a "makker" is somebody who "matches you". Whereas "ne m??t" (B), "een > maat" (D), "a mate" (E) is originally not just somebody you mate with, but > rather somebody you ate "meat" with...which on its turn was primarily done > with a knife, a so called "mes" in Dutch or a "Messer" in German...which > was actually a "meteseax" in Old English, where the second part denotes a > "cutter", the word after which Sachsen, Sassen and Saksen have been > named...the circle is round *s*... Indeed! Germanic *_mat-_ 'measure' > *_matiz_ ~ *_matam_ > Old Saxon _mat_ ~ _meti_ 'food' (Old German _maZi_ 'food', Old Norse _matr_ > Scand. _mat(ur)_) > Modern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Mett_ 'chopped pork_ (> German _Mett_ 'chopped pork_) > "short sword for cutting meat": Old English _meteseax_, Old German _meZZisahs_ ~ _meZZirahs_ (> _meZZer_ > MG _Messer_ 'knife'), Old Saxon _metiseahs_ (> MLS _Metz_ ~ _Mess_ 'knife'; cf. OS _sahs_, OE _seax_, ON _sax_ 'short sword' > "Saxon" (cf. Mod.Scand. _saks_ ~ _sax_ ~ _sakser_ (pl.) 'scissors' < Med.Saxon?, cf. Icelandic _sk?ri_ 'scissors', cf. Mod.Germ. _Schere_, Mod.English _shears_, cf. Dano-Norw. _skj?re_ 'to cut', etc. I wonder if Medieval German _metze_ '(female) companion (of a male)' > 'whore' is in any way related to the above, i.e., to "match". Regards and thanks, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 21:56:38 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 14:56:38 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (07) [E] At 02:06 PM 10/26/02 -0700, Ron wrote: The few times I have heard people use the phrase "to talk up a blue streak" (yes, Canadians, I believe) I interpreted it as denoting something like "to talk up a storm," i.e., 'to talk a lot and in a very animated manner'. Apparently I "over-interpreted" it. Oops! But I seem to remember that my over-interpretation did fit within the contexts in which I heard the phrase used. I think "talk excitedly or quickly and at some length" would be a closer translation. "Me an my wife went over to the Big Smoke (Trana) and all the way there she talked a blue streak abo-ut the antique shopping her and Emilia did the day before." Ed Alexander JAG REALTY INC. 80 Jones Street Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8R 1Y1 Pager: 905-312-5204 Fax: 905-525-6671 www.jagrealty.com ED'S FUNDRAISER PAGE: http://www.deerhurst.com/fundraiser ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 22:57:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:57:05 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.26 (10) [E/Portuguese] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Dear Lowlanders, A kind Brazilian wrote to me (with regards to my site http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm). He informed me that Lowlands Saxon ("Plattdeutsch" or "Niederdeutsch") is spoken in his country as well, especially in Pomerode (http://www.pomerode.com.br/). Here is the most important part for us ("Culture"): "The German language is used in a daily basis by people, and this has been considered by the linguist S?lvio Edimundo Elia, who was in the city in 1989, as a typical bilingual case. The "Pomerano dialect" is still spoken in rural areas, it is a variety of Plattdeutsch or Niederdeutsch. The erudite German or Hochdeutsch is used in religious acts. However, the written predominant language is Portuguese, limiting German and Pomerano as oral language." The situation is the same everywhere: German is described as "erudite" in comparison with Lowlands Saxon ... I would like to include this information in my guide of international resources, but I need a more specific contact address. Any help would be appreciated. Regards, Reinhard/Ron Caros Lowlanders, Um brasileiro am?vel escreveu-me (no que diz respeito a minha p?gina no endere?o http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm). Disse-me que nossa l?ngua baixo-sax? ? falada em seu pa?s tamb?m, particularmente em Pomerode (http://www.pomerode.com.br/). ? abaixo a pe?a mais importante para n?s ("Cultura"): "Fala-se ainda nas ?reas rurais o dialeto pomerano, que ? uma variedade do Plattdeutsch ou Niederdeutsch. O alem?o erudito ou Hochdeutsch ? empregado nos atos religiosos. No entanto, a l?ngua escrita predominante ? o portugu?s, limitando-se o alem?o e o pomerano ? l?ngua oral." A situa??o ? a mesma em toda parte: A l?ngua alem? ? descrito como "erudito" em compara??o com a l?ngua baixo-sax? ... Eu gostaria de incluir esta informa??o em minha guia do recursos internacionais, mas eu necessito um endere?o do contato mais espec?fico. Toda a ajuda seria apreciada. Cumprimentos, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sat Oct 26 23:07:21 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 16:07:21 -0700 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 26.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ruud Harmsen Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (06) [E] 13:57 26-10-2002 -0700, Lowlands-L: Ben J. Bloomgren : >Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (02) [E] >One must remember that Dutch is extremely difficult for us Americans because >we are not familiar with the British ou as in "out" and oe that does not >sound exactly like book. Strange, I always thought that the vowel of "out" was one of the few that is practically the same in all varieties of English, across all oceans (Northern Ireland excepted), and that a British or American ou will also do fine as an imitation of what is spelt au or ou in Dutch. Am I wrong? If so, how? -- Ruud Harmsen Site updated 25 Oct 2002: http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 19:49:04 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:49:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.27 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (11) [E] At 04:07 PM 10/26/02 -0700, Ruud Harmsen wrote: >Strange, I always thought that the vowel of "out" was one of the few >that is practically the same in all varieties of English, across all >oceans (Northern Ireland excepted), and that a British or American >ou will also do fine as an imitation of what is spelt au or ou in >Dutch. Am I wrong? If so, how? In most North America accents, it is pronounced as if it were the High German pronunciation of "au" as in "aus". However, Canadian accent (except Newfoundland), pronounces it more the way it is spelled, namely "o-ut". Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: Stan Levinson Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (11) [E] Ruud and folks, Actually, in my experience, the "ou" of "out" has to be one of the most varied diphthongs in English, from the American version which uses a more closed and front "a" than the Dutch sound in "fout" through the Australian version which starts with an even higher front vowel, the standard British which (seems to me, though I'm not so sure) starts with a more mid vowel, and back to Canadian which really, to this American ear, sounds like it starts with something approaching /o/, but more front. No? Stan ---------- From: Ben J. Bloomgren Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (11) [E] I was actually talking about the Dutch UI or UY. The OU and the AU are the same across the English world. Thanks for asking the question, Ruud. Ben ---------- From: robert bowman Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.26 (02) [E] On Saturday 26 October 2002 11:53, Gary wrote: > and also 'Worcestershire' given it's full > value instead of England English, 'Woostersheer'. Depends on the region. Massachussets has a Worcester which is pronouned Wooster, so by extension many people in the northeast would say 'Woostersheer'. People outside the region generate a few smiles as they try to handle Worcester, Leominster, and other imported place names. Between the English, Dutch, and native place names, you can always tell a Nebraskan on vacation. bob ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 19:51:05 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:51:05 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.27 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (07) [E] on 27/10/02 7:06, Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] wrote: > For example, in English you have a 'black eye', > but in Scots as in German you have a 'blue eye'. Scots these days even > seems As a native born Scot, raised and educated there, I never heard this description used. It was always 'black'anywhere I travelled or resided. Regards Tom Tom Mc Rae PSOC Brisbane Australia "The masonnis suld mak housis stark and rude, To keep the pepill frome the stormes strang, And he that fals, the craft it gois all wrang." >From 15th century Scots Poem 'The Buke of the Chess' ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 19:53:57 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 11:53:57 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] Hi again, Thanks for the follow up on my political labels rant. A couple of others I had forgotten: in Canada a New Democratic Party (socialist/social democrat) member or supporter may be referred to as an NDPer by friend and foe alike - but only the right wing activist will refer to one of them as an "N-dipper" - or more usual lately - simply as a "dipper." Our former right wing Social Credit supporter got shortened to "Socred" - but here there was an intriguing phonetic distinction. Two distinct pronunciations were heard: Soh-kred and Saw-kred. Soh-kred was a neutral term but Saw-kred seemed to be used almost exclusively by NDPers in describing their hated enemies. (One mayor of Seattle once told a Victoria audience "In Washington State we just don't have the kind of stick-in-the-eye politics you have here in B.C." The audience laughed - both because we knew he was right - and because it was so surprising for an American to make such an insightful comment about anything Canadian). In Canada we get far more US tv than Canadian and a lot of our political activists follow US politics and take sides - at least as a cheering section. Thus Canada may be the only country on earth where someone can say "I'm a Republican." (meaning I like the US party of that name) and also say "I'm a monarchist." (meaning I'm in favour of Canada retaining the institution of the monarchy) Since both are relatively conservative opinions there actually are quite a lot of people who would fit both categories. Of course we also have a surprising number of Scottish descendants who would say "I'm a Jacobite" meaning I support the Stuart claim to the throne. (advanced on the battlefield of Culloden in 1746.) The current monarchs, the House of Windsor are, of course, the twice renamed House of Hanover. Which leads to the obvious linguistic question - Jacobites supported King James against King George. James - Latin "Jacobus" from Hebrew Jakob yielding Jacobite - but how did Jakob become James in English (and Seumas in Gaelic) rather than say, "Jack?" or Jake or Jacob? Even French Jacques sounds closer to the original. Why "James" ? anyone? noble is who nobly does George M. Gibault (Plantagent loyalist) ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: labels Hi all! One last bit on labels. (I promise) An Ontario friend of mine notes that it is possible in that province to find a P.C. (Progressive Conservative) who is quite p.c. (politically correct). He assures me that such a person is also almost certain to own a p.c. (personal computer.) A socialist friend I was discussing labels with reminded me that many social democrats in Canada support the retention of the monarchy as well - and have been described - even in print - in an affectionate play on "Red Tory" as "tory reds." This is the only way you can call any kind of social democrat or socialist "red" in Canada without appearing to intend an insult. Liberal factions in Canada tend to be labeled in association with a leader or prominent political figure. Canadian Liberals are not so likely to say they are right left or centre (A few say "centrist Liberal") as they are to identify with a faction leader - currently Chretien (more left) Liberals vs. Martin (more centre or right wing) Liberals. Some might say "I'm a Chretien man" or "I'm for Martin." but while often labelled by the press as Chretienites or Maritinites - "ite doesn't seem to be popular self-description. Oddly enough, personal faction labeling can be abbreviated to the nth degree - as in "Are you Chretien or Martin?" with the leader's name becoming an adjective! Thus someone could say "I'm Martin" or "I'm Martin all the way." Now that Chretien is retiring and other candidates will seek to lead his faction, one can hear such amazing semantic locutions as "I'm Chretien - but I haven't decided yet whether to be Manley or Rock." There is no multiple personality disorder implied by this sentence, so long as one understands the current political context. Still, this must be as baffling to outsiders as the fact that in English we chop a tree down before chopping it up! One other retrieval from US politics - James Carville, while running "new democrat" Bill Clinton's campaign for the Democratic presidential nomination referred to the more leftward opposing faction as the "Liblabs" (short for Liberal&Labour - a polite way of saying "left wing" - considered an insult by most Americans). I don't know if this was his invention or a pre-existing label - but it suggests the labrador retreiver to me (commonly called a "lab") - perhaps continuing the yellow dog, blue dog tradition of canine labeling of US Democrats. Popular cultural phenomena can also be picked up in different places and used for political labeling without any direct association. Red Tory youth in Ontario are known as the "Killer Bees" - also, I understand, the name of liberal Democrats in the Texas legislature - their Tory Democrat opponents being successors to the other great factional label - now almost extinct - the so-called "Dixiecrats." Finally, no-one likes to be a "sheep" in politics - since this implies a mindless follower - yet the loyal supporters of any party seem to be happy to assert their partisanship by saying they are "dyed in the wool" whatevers! Proving perhaps that language is almost as funny as politics! Best wishes George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 21:35:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:35:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (04) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Orthography" Nouadays I aye uizes automatic transliteration tools tae prepare the texts on ScotsteXt for uploadin. This means that whan A come across spellins A dinna richt unnerstaun, A canna git past them wi a wee bit internal bletherie ony mair! As weel, the orthographic considerations for electronic texts can be a bit different in their ettle nor texts for fowk haein read at. In parteeclar: o bein technically (or historically) richt is like tae be mair important than the text leukin familiar (wi hou the wirds can be translatit intae mair familiar spellins automatic); o it's better if a spellin can staun as a unique signifier for a wird (sae's the transliteration saftware disna git fanklt ower the likes o ("wood") an ("mad"), for example, it wad be better tae wale for "wood" - if the spellin wis nott at the last, the transliterator could haunle it). Onywey, ae parteeclar area o spellin A'm no shuir aboot is auxiliaries, espaecially the conditionals written in English , an , an as weel, . The questions is: o A tak it that the best wey tae spell an is wi the saicondary vowel, ie an ? o Ar the ony kin o differ wirth preservin atween the forms an an an in traditional texts, or wad A be as weel tae settle on the tae kin o sibilant an lat the transliterator owerset tae the tither gin it's wantit? o What alternative spellins ar the for , that wad sinder it fae meanin "mairy"? The SND suggests - appearinly the /l/ is or wis soondit in some airts, but A div still want the electronic texts tae be in weel-kent Scots for whan a transliterator's no tae haun. A dout micht no be a guid representation o the uizual range o pronunciations ootthrou the Lawlands? Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Orthography Sandy, Fowk, Ay, A misdoot that A'm daein it agane: feelin mair maisterfu as A suid (shuid?). Ye can wyte the dictionars an Collin's braw buik an CDs o it! Sandy, is the spellin ye yuized in the postin abuin a preein o yer ain wey? Gin it is -- whittever it's wirth uz sayin is -- A can read it gey eithlie an can hear it pronoonced clairlie in ma heid whan A read it (parteeclar noo at A hae harkend tae Collin's CDs fur oors). There's mair conseestencie noo, and at's aye a guid an yuizfae thing, parteeclar fur the lerner at's stertin oot ootside Scotland. Still an on, yer spellin canna be cawed "radical," cause ye yuize tradeetional English weys wioot the tradeetional throuitherness and wioot the "apologetic apostrophees" Collin mints in his buik. A'm yet a wee bit waunert ... Whit wey div ye spell "I" what Collin spells "A" -- an abuin ye aince spellt it "A" an aw? An whit wey "ie", "y", "ee", "ei" an "ea"? Regairds, Reinhard/Ron (Scots-lernin geeniepig amang the fremmit) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 21:47:26 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:47:26 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.27 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.26 (08) [D/E] Ron wrote: > Modern Lowlands Saxon _mack_ 'fit (to handle)', 'tame' There's a Shetland word _makly_ with a similar meaning, though I'm surprised not to be able to find it in The Shetland Dictionary. CSD, though, cites _mak_ with this meaning. > >Scots did not participate in k-palatalization This is something which I've never properly understood. I've always understood that pairs such as Eng. _church_, _bridge_; Scots _kirk_, _brig_, were owing to the Scots forms being derived from Old Norse rather than Old English (so eg. David Murison in The Guid Scots Tongue, p. 48ff). Apparently there are some semantic distinctions in English based on this etymological difference - so the cognate _shirt_ from OE and _skirt_ from ON - but such differences are more typical of Scots, eg: Eng. _shelf_, Scots _skelf_. Now, does this mean that Scots did not undergo k- and g- palatalisation at all; or that it borrowed ON forms lacking palatalisation (which would seem to presuppose some palatalisation elsewhere) or that it did not undergo palatalisation under ON influence (which, it seems to me, could only be a theory.) Certainly there are words in modern Scots with apparent palatalisation, such as _watch_ (_match_, flame-stick, doesn't count because it's French) and _cheese_. Does anyone know which factors are involved here - is there partial palatalisation, delimited either lexically (eg: words with OE rather than ON origin) or according to some phonological rule; or are the words with palatalisation English loan words, as _which_ and _much_ surely are, the Scots forms being _whilk_ (now probably obsolete, and replaced in traditional braid Scots by (th)at) and _muckle_? Presumably there is some rule whereby we have English _watch_ and _wake_ with different meanings from the same origin. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 21:49:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:49:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: erek gass Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (03) [E] Political terminology is always a little tight, and not always understood as intended. As an American (and not at all enamoured of the Anjouvins as our friend is) who leans more to Cromwell and the last Stuarts (Mary and Anne) than those earlier characters, I'll note that I've heard (and used) the term "Cromwellist" to mean someone who likes the man and his actual policies as opposed to "Cromwellian" referring more to the democratic philosophy he embraced, but wasn't always able to achieve given the nature of some of us those allied to him. One thing I can't help being curious about is that the House of Hannover (which inherited the British throne as a result of the Act of Succession after the Glorious Revolution to assure that James and his Jacobites would be denied the throne) was, I thought, called that till the great War against Germany when they altered their name as a "patriotic" gesture. What was the other change (possibly dropping the second "n" in "Hannover"?)? The question about "James" versus "Jacob" is an interesting one, and calls to mind something here in York County PA a few years ago. One of our local newspapers did a write-up on St Jacob's Lutheran and reformed Church in Brodbecks (by the way, my grandfather had been the Reformed minister there for thirty years, so I had a particular interest in the article). Included in the article was the comment that the name "St. Jacob's" was odd in that "Protestans don't recognise a St. Jacob". Obviously, several of us wrote the paper advising them to take a look at any German Bible (or "Bivvel" as we say in Deitsch) and note that the "Epistle of James" is the "Epistle of Jakob" in that version. Erek Gass ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Sun Oct 27 21:52:01 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 13:52:01 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.27 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.26 (03) [E] > From: James Mader > Subject: Eh > > My father-in-law, who is orginally from Zeeland, Netherlands, told me > once > that some Zeelanders, instead of ja, say Eh in the affirmative. This > would > make sense on the end of a sentence. Being that Afrikaans has such a > strong > link to Dutch (my wife calls it Boer dutch) maybe this is a link? > > James L. Mader, Seoul Korea Hello, I told you already about the westhoek-Flemish and how they alwaeys use "enni" ("ehne" - meaning "eh neen" or "nietwaar")at the end of almost every sentense.The "eh" you speak of is also used in Flemish (The most near tongue of Zeelandic)It sounds just like "mm or "ehe"(meaning yes). And their is a big variety of other words to end a sentense. I think that has already been mentioned quiet a while ago (just have a look in the archives). Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 05:32:07 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:32:07 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.27 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Idiomatica Beste li?glanners, A 'black eye' is called "?n blaa kaj" in my version of Brabantish. If aliens ever hear the pronounciation of this word they will probably link it with "black eye" because it sounds almost the same...yet it ?probably? means "een blauwe kade" (D) *s*. The point is that I've never been able to explain this word "kaj" satisfactorily...It seems likely that "kaai", "kade" (D), "quay" (E) could have been an influence (in a sense that the bone structure under an eye forms sort of a fence), but at the same time the group of "kieuw", "kauwen" (D) ~ "to chew" (E) ~ "Kiefer" (G) ~ ki?vern (B, to eat slowly) might have played a role too. Especially because the usual pronounciation for "kaai" (D) is "kee" (< French "quaie"). It wouldn't be the first time however that Antwerp exports words that it heard from scandinavian (skol and fak), english or scottish seamen (blakaaj ???). Ron, the medieval word "Metze" is just a pet name for Mechtild and now I quote Matthias Lexer : "...als appelat. s.v.a. m?dchen niedern standes, oft mit dem nebenbegriffe der leichtfertigkeit; hure." Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.27 (05) [E] Dear John, I believe you are right. Scots did palatalise. But palatalisation naturally only took place before palatal vowels in the following syllable. Northern Old Anglian, from which Scots is derived had infectional endings with palatal and velar vowels in one paradigm, so that palatalisation and retention of velars must have occured within such a paradigm of a verb or noun. When the unstressed vowel became schwa, forms with or without palatalisation were generalised. As to be expected these developments showed regional differences. Perheps non-palatalised forms in Scots were encouraged by a Norse cognate, from which, as you have stated, many non-palatalised forms also derive. In fact I believe Old Norse to be the origine of the overwhelming majority of non-palatalised forms. John wrote: "This is something which I've never properly understood. I've always understood that pairs such as Eng. _church_, _bridge_; Scots _kirk_, _brig_, were owing to the Scots forms being derived from Old Norse rather than Old English (so eg. David Murison in The Guid Scots Tongue, p. 48ff). Apparently there are some semantic distinctions in English based on this etymological difference - so the cognate _shirt_ from OE and _skirt_ from ON - but such differences are more typical of Scots, eg: Eng. _shelf_, Scots _skelf_. Now, does this mean that Scots did not undergo k- and g- palatalisation at all; or that it borrowed ON forms lacking palatalisation (which would seem to presuppose some palatalisation elsewhere) or that it did not undergo palatalisation under ON influence (which, it seems to me, could only be a theory.) Certainly there are words in modern Scots with apparent palatalisation, such as _watch_ (_match_, flame-stick, doesn't count because it's French) and _cheese_. Does anyone know which factors are involved here - is there partial palatalisation, delimited either lexically (eg: words with OE rather than ON origin) or according to some phonological rule; or are the words with palatalisation English loan words, as _which_ and _much_ surely are, the Scots forms being _whilk_ (now probably obsolete, and replaced in traditional braid Scots by (th)at) and _muckle_? Presumably there is some rule whereby we have English _watch_ and _wake_ with different meanings from the same origin. John M. Tait." ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 05:35:09 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 21:35:09 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.27 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Alfred Brothers Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.26 (09) [E] >Ron wrote: > >The few times I have heard people use the phrase "to talk up a blue streak" >(yes, Canadians, I believe) I interpreted it as denoting something like "to >talk up a storm," i.e., 'to talk a lot and in a very animated manner'. >Apparently I "over-interpreted" it. Oops! But I seem to remember that my >over-interpretation did fit within the contexts in which I heard the phrase >used. > Ed Alexander responded: >I think "talk excitedly or quickly and at some length" would be a closer >translation. "Me an my wife went over to the Big Smoke (Trana) and all the >way there she talked a blue streak about the antique shopping her and >Emilia did the day before." > "Talking a blue streak" is quite common in the U.S., as far as I know. -- At least it is in the Northeast. It's very common in New England. In fact, in 1999 there was a movie called "Blue Streak", based on the expression, and "Blue Streak 2" is in the planning stage; so it must be known in Hollywood as well. True, I don't think I ever heard "talk UP a blue streak," but I notice that in your example the "up" is also missing. I find on the Internet that "cussing up a blue streak" is also not uncommon. Re the "black eye" vs. the "blue eye". I would speak of someone having a "_black_ eye", but I'd very likely also say "His eye was all _black and blue_." instead of "His eye was all black." Alfred Brothers ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 06:26:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 22:26:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (10) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 27.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Orthography" > From: R. F. Hahn mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com > Subject: Orthography > > Sandy, Fowk, > > Ay, A misdoot that A'm daein it agane: feelin mair maisterfu as A suid > (shuid?). Ye can wyte the dictionars an Collin's braw buik an CDs o it! Ron, "misdoot" is wrang here! "Doot" in Scots means the opposite o what it dis in English, sae "A doot" means "I suppose" an "A misdoot" means "I disbelieve" or "I mistrust". > A'm yet a wee bit waunert ... Whit wey div ye spell "I" what Collin spells > "A" -- an abuin ye aince spellt it "A" an aw? An whit wey "ie", > "y", "ee", > "ei" an "ea"? A startit the mail in English an syne efter typin twathree wirds decidit tae write it in Scots insteed - A maun a forgotten tae chainge the English "I" intae a Scots "A" in the first sentence! The'r some odds atween ma spellin an Colin's that A understaun like this: 1. Colin (A think) haes tried tae follae dictionars like the SND an CSD. The spellins in thame's aa tae crockanition, tho A'm shuir Colin's managed tae pit some order on the chaos for his beuk (an thare a example o ae differ - Colin writes lippenin tae the dictionars an certain historical uises, while A write tae better shaw the modern soondin o the wird). 2. Colin writes a afore wirds like - this aye surprises me cause A soonds this (/j/) in ma ain dialeck but A wadna thocht a Buchan man like Colin wad a soondit it! Even tho A say it A dinna masel write it wi hou the'r ither wirds in ma dialeck that haes this /j/. For example, A'd hae tae write as , as , as an siclike gin A war tae write an like Colin dis. Sae no writin this seems tae me tae gie a mair universal (/jInI'vE:rs=l/ -> !) kin o orthography. 3. In writin the likes o for ma , Colin's gaun wi his theory o vowel hermony. A'd caa this a guid idea gin vowel hermony wis widespreed in Scots, but it's no. It wad mak richt spellin faur ower hard for fowk disna ken Colin's parteeclar dialeck. 4. Colin's uise o , , , , micht no be the same as mines. As faur as A can lift the principles, A uizes diaphonemics for the /e:/, /i(:)/ soonds across dialecks, an again the ettle here's makkin the spellin as universal as A can. Hivin sayed aa this, baith ma spellins an Colin's is aa fanklt wi English orthographic 'principles', an sae ye can haurly expeck conseestency onywey! A ken fine nouadays hou tae heyst masel oot this historic boggie, but A'v got it on guid authority that naebody wad want tae read ma Scots if A did! Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Orthography Thenk ye for yer help an expoondin, Sandy! > > Ay, A misdoot that A'm daein it agane: feelin mair maisterfu as A suid > > (shuid?). Ye can wyte the dictionars an Collin's braw buik an CDs o it! > > Ron, "misdoot" is wrang here! "Doot" in Scots means the > opposite o what it dis in English, sae "A doot" means "I > suppose" an "A misdoot" means "I disbelieve" or "I mistrust". Och, A wis jist ettlin tae say sumhin lik "I'm afraid that ..." Hoo wuid ye say at (gin at au)? "A'm feart at ..."? "Diaphonemics across dialecks" soonds guid (geud?). Noo ye're truelins speikin ma langage! Bit A unerstaun at there's aye a mids i the sea atween at an whit five echt can accep. Whit's needit is a comparativ table o the (dia-)phonemes and the odds o spellin them. Weel, at's a haundlin for yer rife by-time. ;) Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:18:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:18:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.28 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.27 (07) [E] James Mader wrote: > > My father-in-law, who is orginally from Zeeland, Netherlands, told me > > once > > that some Zeelanders, instead of ja, say Eh in the affirmative. This > > would > > make sense on the end of a sentence. Being that Afrikaans has such a > > strong > > link to Dutch (my wife calls it Boer dutch) maybe this is a link? > > > > James L. Mader, Seoul Korea Luc Vanbrabant responded: > I told you already about the westhoek-Flemish and how they alwaeys use > "enni" ("ehne" - meaning "eh neen" or "nietwaar")at the end of almost > every sentense.The "eh" you speak of is also used in Flemish (The most > near tongue of Zeelandic)It sounds just like "mm or "ehe"(meaning > yes). And their is a big variety of other words to end a sentense. I > think that has already been mentioned quiet a while ago (just have a > look in the archives). In Zeelandic, _ee_ (pronounced as the _ay_ in 'stay') is used only to ask for confirmation. Never as an affirmitive in its own right. The same goes for West- Flemish (and probably most East-Flemish dialects). The frequency of the use of _ee_ varies; if someone is a bit uncertain about what he or she is telling, the _ee_'s are all over the place! And James, it is not just some Zeelanders that use _ee_, we all use it and some use it even when spea- king (or trying to speak) Dutch. A few examples: 1. Asking for confirmation: -Die k?rel eit toch een gr?te zuupe, ee? -Jae, dat eit n zeker In English: - That man is very thirsty, isn't he? - Yes he is. Sometimes _ee_ is used well after the statement that you would like to have confirmed: Da gae me daerom 's anders doee! (pause) Ee? 2. Telling a story, using _ee_ to keep your audience's attention (could perhaps be translated with 'right'): "Dus ik lo?pe dae deu de stad, ee, en aol ine?ns, ee, staet da vintje van Puype vo me, ee. Ikke d'r op af, ee, ik zegge: 'A je noe nog 's wat over mien te zeien eit, ee, doet dat dan 's nie achter m'n rik, ee'. Ee?" English: "So I was walking around town, right, and all of a sudden, right, I see that guy Puype in front of me, right. So I step towards him, right, and I say: 'If you've got something to tell about me, right, don't do that behind my back, right?' Right? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:20:55 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:20:55 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.28 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Reuben Epp Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.27 (09) [E] From: "Lowlands-L" To: Sent: Sunday, October 27, 2002 9:35 PM Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.27 (09) [E] > Ed Alexander responded: > > >I think "talk excitedly or quickly and at some length" would be a closer > >translation. "Me an my wife went over to the Big Smoke (Trana) and all the > >way there she talked a blue streak about the antique shopping her and > >Emilia did the day before." > > > "Talking a blue streak" is quite common in the U.S., as far as I know. > -- At least it is in the Northeast. It's very common in New England. In > fact, in 1999 there was a movie called "Blue Streak", based on the > expression, and "Blue Streak 2" is in the planning stage; so it must be > known in Hollywood as well. True, I don't think I ever heard "talk UP a > blue streak," but I notice that in your example the "up" is also > missing. I find on the Internet that "cussing up a blue streak" is also > not uncommon. Dear Lowlanders, 'Talking a blue streak' is quite commonly heard and used in western Canada, probably also in the east. However, it would be unusual to hear 'talk UP a blue streak.' The connotation of 'talking a blue streak,' I understand to describe a profusion of speech or argument for or against a subject under discussion. Cheers! Reuben ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:22:41 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:22:41 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.28 (03) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.19 (02) [E] Thomas Byro wrote: > I would like to add that in the lowland areas, Dutch names are extremely > frequent. I went to High School with many. No one though assumes though > that someone is a Jackson White merely because their name is Vreeland. That > distinction is reserved to the people who live in the mountains or who moved > from there.Making joking comments about the Jackson Whites was commonplace > in the area but I don't recall anyone with a Dutch surname doing so. I > wonder if the name and concept of Jackson Whites is not imposed by the > outsiders who have moved into the area who were not pleased with the obvious > mixed race status of the mountain people? In other words, that the Jackson > Whites were not a separate people but were part of the continuum of Dutch > decended people? I recently correpsonded with Dr. David Cohen, Senior Research Associate with the New Jersey Historical Commission and author of the book "The Ramapo Mountain People". He says that the Jersey Dutch dialect died out among the Jackson Whites somewhere in the 20th century (probably around 1950). Nevertheless, there are people who claim that in their homes, the older Jackson Whites still talk gibberish every few sentences. I assume that by gibberish they mean that some Jersey Dutch expressions and words are still in use. Even without asking him, mr. Cohen already sort of affirmed your assumption that the Jackson Whites were part of a continuum of Dutch decended people. He wrote to me: "I also have some additional thoughts on what I term the Afro-Dutch regional subculture of New York and New Jersey in a chapter titled "Afro- Dutch Folklore and Folklife," pp. 31-46 in a book of my essays titled Folk Legacies Revisited, published by Rutgers University Press in 1995". The term Afro-Dutch comes to mind again if one realizes that one of the varieties of Dutch spoken in NJ and NY was actually called Neger Duits (Negroe Dutch). It was a more or less creolized version of the geographically varying Dutch varieties in NJ and NY, namely Jersey Dutch, Mo- hawk Dutch, Albany Dutch and Schoharie Dutch. Jersey Dutch is the most wellknown of these varieties and there- fore the five varieties are often lumped together under that name. Dr. Cohen wrote me that this 'Neger Duits' was actually the variety spoken by the Jackson Whites: "I have material on the variant of Jersey Dutch spoken by the ancestors of the Rama- po Mountain People. It is based on an article written by a Columbia University linguist named John Dyneley Prince titled "The Jersey Dutch Dialect," which appeared in Dialect Notes 3 (1910): pp. 459-84. Prince's chief informant on "Neger Duits" was William De Freece of Ringwood, who was one of the Ramapo Mountain People". Given the fact that the Jackson Whites spoke the variety of Jersey Dutch that was spoken by black slaves, the obvious conclusion is that the Jackson Whites are primarily decen- dants of freed or escaped slaves, mixed with white outcasts, indians and perhaps a few more groups. In that way, they are indeed part of the "Dutch" culture, that they share with the Dutch decended valley-people. Even- though they live on the edge of that culture in every way. The theory or story that the Jackson Whites primarily derive from 200 prostitutes who only arrived in NY just before they moved into the mountains, doesn't really make sense anymore. Where would they have learned Neger Duits and why would these English and African prostitutes speak that language amongst themselves? It would be interesting to see what the gibberish that I mentioned above, actually consists of today. David Cohen said that the Jackson Whites at least still know a Dutch nursery rhyme, called "Trippe Trappe Troontjes". That rhyme is also still known among white Dutch decendants in NY and NJ and versions of it are known in the Netherlands as well as in South Africa. Here is one version: Trippe Trappe Troontjes De varkens in de boontjes De koetjes in de klaver De paarden in de haver De eendjes in de waterplas Zo groot mij kleine Joris Regards, Marco ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:25:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:25:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (04) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Jorge Potter Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (03) [E] > House of Hanover. > Which leads to the obvious linguistic question - Jacobites supported King > James against King George. James - Latin "Jacobus" from Hebrew Jakob > yielding Jacobite - but how did Jakob become James in English (and Seumas > in Gaelic) rather than say, "Jack?" or Jake or Jacob? Even French Jacques > sounds closer to the original. Why "James" ? anyone? Dear Lowlanders, I can't answer your question, but assume it was the French against the academics. What I can affirm is that in Spanish we have Jacobo, Jaime, Diego and Santiago. Most Spanish speakers are oblivious of the common origin. Of course Santiago is just short for San Diego. Jorge Potter ---------- From: kcaldwell31 at comcast.net Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.27 (03) [E] > From: George M Gibault > Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.26 (01) [E] > > James - Latin "Jacobus" from Hebrew Jakob > yielding Jacobite - but how did Jakob become James in English (and Seumas > in Gaelic) rather than say, "Jack?" or Jake or Jacob? Even French Jacques > sounds closer to the original. Why "James" ? anyone? "Jakob" became "James" in English because of Old French "James", related to Provencal and Catalan "Jaume, Jacme," and Spanish "Jaime" (Spanish also has "Iago", which is the same name, just as English also has "Jacob" - thus "Santiago", which yields the nickname "Diego"). The "m" is an alteration of the "b" in Latin "Jacobus", seen also in Italian "Giacomo". In Slavic languages, the "b" became a "v" (Yakov). Kevin Caldwell (kcaldwell31 at comcast.net) ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:27:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:27:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.28 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Leslie Decker Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.27 (01) [E] > Depends on the region. Massachussets has a Worcester which is pronouned > Wooster, so by extension many people in the northeast would say > 'Woostersheer'. People outside the region generate a few smiles as they try > to handle Worcester, Leominster, and other imported place names. Between the > English, Dutch, and native place names, you can always tell a Nebraskan on > vacation. > > bob We have the same sort of thing in Central Texas, which is slowing changing under the influence of the sheer number of people who have moved to the Austin area in the past 20 years (the population has tripled). Many of the Germans who settled in the region spoke a dialect which used front unrounded vowels even when it was spelled with an umlaut. For example,. there's a street in Austin called Koenig Lane, which most native-born Austinites will call [kei nig], and most newcomers will pronounce [ko: nig]. The old airport in Austin, Robert Mueller, is pronounced [mI lr], but newcomers tend to say [mju lr]. I hear the second pronunciation more and more on the radio and television, so I think it might win out. There are of course other local pronunciations of place names that I can't justify as much, such as the Spanish names and a few street names with strange stress, but you'll still be an outsider to some if you pronounce them differently :-) Leslie Decker ---------- From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: phonology Hi Ron, No, no, no. I didn't mean it like that! I'm not a sadist. It's just good clean fun when I get a group of American students and German students together and have them try to pronounce the foreign tongue. My American students have difficulty remembering the difference between the "ie" and "ei" dipthongs. I once heard a student mispronounce "schiessen." You can imagine what she said. Quite often it brings everyone onto a level-playing field. The German students come here with a good command of the English language and well, as you can imagine, the American students don't do as well with the German. The difference being of course, that the German students have had 6 years of English and my students have had 1 or 2 years of German. Some students representing their respective countries sometimes get a little "high-minded" and I certainly don't mind bringing them back to reality at that point. I also agree the "ui" dipthong in Dutch is a bit difficult at first. Funny though, many Germans have asked me if I was Dutch. I guess I have an "accent!" (ha ha) (I probably should have let this one go, but I couldn't resist.) Kevin Browne ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 18:32:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 10:32:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.28 (06) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (04) [S] Sandy Fleming wrate: > o it's better if a spellin can staun as a unique > signifier for a wird (sae's the transliteration > saftware disna git fanklt ower the likes o > ("wood") an ("mad"), for example, it wad be > better tae wale for "wood" - if the > spellin wis nott at the last, the transliterator > could haunle it). A uise (wood), (mad) an (would) O course dependin on dialect or stress etc. thir coud aw be spelt . Thaim that's thirlt tae writin Scots as different fae English as possible e'en gin it isna phonologically soond whiles uises bi analogy wi [gId]. > Onywey, ae parteeclar area o spellin A'm no shuir aboot is > auxiliaries, espaecially the conditionals written in English > , an , an as weel, . > > The questions is: > > o A tak it that the best wey tae spell an > is wi the saicondary vowel, ie an > ? A dinna gree here acause the unnerlyin phoneme isna whit a bodie for ordinar sees as bein ahint (In sae faur as ye gree on the preenciple o unnerlyin phonemes) Baith thae wirds haes stresst an unstresst forms [kud, kId, kVd] an NE [kwId], [Sud, SId, SVd] an mair aulder [sud, sId, s at d] Shuirly wad predeect [Sid or sid] in NE on in some airts e'en [Sed or sed]. In writin (ye can dae whit ye want in dialogue) A juist uise the stresst forms an wither or no drappin the is a guid idea or no is debatable. The aulder or is aiblins best uised syne that's whit's for ordinar in dictionars. > o Ar the ony kin o differ wirth preservin atween the > forms an an an in > traditional texts, or wad A be as weel tae settle > on the tae kin o sibilant an lat the transliterator > owerset tae the tither gin it's wantit? is the aulder form an the Englifee'd ane. Aiblins best haud wi whit the author wrate unless they come up wi anither spellin for thir. > o What alternative spellins ar the for , that > wad sinder it fae meanin "mairy"? The SND > suggests - appearinly the /l/ is or wis > soondit in some airts, but A div still want the > electronic texts tae be in weel-kent Scots for whan > a transliterator's no tae haun. A dout micht > no be a guid representation o the uizual range o > pronunciations ootthrou the Lawlands? A jalouse that is gey an auld fae afore the wis vocalised cf. baw (ball) couter (culter) etc. A dinna ken o onie modren uiss o [wald]. Modren [wad, wId, wVd] giein an an o coorse the phonologically unsoond . A haud wi it bein the tradeetional leeterar furm, it sinders fae (wood) an (mad) an aw. That lea's us wi meanin "mairie". A decidit tae thole thae twa homophones (would, wed). If she wad he wid gang wid in the wid. If she wad he wud gang wud in the wud. If she wad he wuid gang wuid in the wuid. If she wad he wad gang wud in the wid. (If she married he would go mad in the wood) A prefer the last ane. Monie ither combinations is o coorse possible. Andy Eagle ---------- From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (10) [S] Sandy Fleming wrate > > Fae: R. F. Hahn > > Sandy, Fowk, > The'r some odds atween ma spellin an Colin's that A understaun > like this: > > 1. Colin (A think) haes tried tae follae dictionars like the > SND an CSD. The spellins in thame's aa tae crockanition, tho > A'm shuir Colin's managed tae pit some order on the chaos for > his beuk (an thare a example o ae differ - Colin writes > lippenin tae the dictionars an certain historical uises, while > A write tae better shaw the modern soondin o the wird). A uise an aw for the selsame raison. Tho isna necessar wrang. Its ane o the ootcomes o the modren variants o historical . It stairtit oot as /o:/ in Anglo-Saxon an becam /2/ in aulder Scots. An gin A'v liftit it richt, wi lang an short variants reflectit in the aulder Scots spellins uisin an the bein a merker o lenth cf. aulder , , an aw. Afore /k/ an /x/ it becam /(j)u/ or /(j)V/ dependin or dialect an whiles parteeclar wirds. Colin mentions thon in his beuk as pairt o his expoondin o the 'rule'. > 2. Colin writes a afore wirds like - this aye > surprises me cause A soonds this (/j/) in ma ain dialeck > but A wadna thocht a Buchan man like Colin wad a soondit it! > Even tho A say it A dinna masel write it wi hou the'r ither > wirds in ma dialeck that haes this /j/. For example, A'd hae > tae write as , as , as > an siclike gin A war tae write an like Colin > dis. Sae no writin this seems tae me tae gie a mair > universal (/jInI'vE:rs=l/ -> !) kin o orthography. A gang alang wi Sandy here. > 3. In writin the likes o for ma , Colin's gaun > wi his theory o vowel hermony. A'd caa this a guid idea gin > vowel hermony wis widespreed in Scots, but it's no. It wad mak > richt spellin faur ower hard for fowk disna ken Colin's parteeclar > dialeck. A juist deal wi thaim as 'morphemes' tho some o thaim isna richt morphemes but for practical raison a deal wi thaim as siclike. Thair pronunciation depends on sindrie factors. A tak it native speakers wad pronounce thaim richt. Eg. The negative <-na> that some fowk spells <-nae> tho is the historical leeterar furm. Diminutive Adjective and adverbial <(l)ie> or <(l)y> Whither ye uise or is a maiter o personal opeenion. Ane's as guid as the tither tho fameeliarity micht suggest uisin . The final in wirds lik , an etc. coud juist as weel be written , an . The suffix <-fu> (full) e.g. awfu = awe + fu an etymological spellin. Monie fowk gaes for phonetic spellins eg. awfae, awfa, awfie, offy etc. > 4. Colin's uise o , , , , micht no be the > same as mines. As faur as A can lift the principles, A uizes > diaphonemics for the /e:/, /i(:)/ soonds across dialecks, an > again the ettle here's makkin the spellin as universal as A > can. A uise an for wirds that haes aither /e/ or /i/ dependin o dialect an whiles wirds. for ordinar cognates wi the likes o 'head', dead' an 'deaf' etc. an for the lave eg. beat an meat. for wirds that haes /i/ in aw dialects e.g. airtifeecial, cheese, ceevil, weel an wheen etc. > Hivin sayed aa this, baith ma spellins an Colin's is aa fanklt > wi English orthographic 'principles', an sae ye can haurly expeck > conseestency onywey! A ken fine nouadays hou tae heyst masel oot > this historic boggie, but A'v got it on guid authority that naebody > wad want tae read ma Scots if A did! That's a kinch ye hae tae deal wi gin ye're efter fowk readin whit ye write. Gaun ower far fae the weel-kent English preenciples micht mak it incomprehensible tae thaim that's no acquent wi whit ye're daein. A ettle tae uise spellins that can be fund in the CSD. Tho no aye the heid wird. The spellins that fits the 'polyphonemic theory' is maist aw thare. R. F. Hahn wrate: > "Diaphonemics across dialecks" soonds guid (geud?). Noo ye're truelins > speikin ma langage! Bit A unerstaun at there's aye a mids i the sea atween > at an whit five echt can accep. > > Whit's needit is a comparativ table o the (dia-)phonemes and the odds o > spellin them. Weel, at's a haundlin for yer rife by-time. ;) Thare's ane at http://www.scots-online.org/airticles/phonology.pdf Andy Eagle ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 19:03:00 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:03:00 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Lowlanders, Apparently, the origin of English "black" is unknown, but I would like us to take a crack at shedding some light on it anyway. As most of you know, other Germanic languages have _swart_, _swatt_, _svartur_, _svart_, _Schwarz_, _shvarts_, etc. (< Germanic *swart-az_), for the color, which are related to obsolete English _swart- and _swarty_ 'of dark hue', and to _swarthy_ 'dark-skinned'. In Scots we have the cognate _blaik_ 'shoe-polish', which, as Colin Wilson writes in his Scots textbook, can be of any color (e.g., brown: _broon blaik_). In many Lowlands Saxon (Low Saxon) dialects, _Black_ means 'ink', which, again, does not have to be of black color (though originally it probably was, being made from some sort of soot). Danish has _bl?k_, Dano-Norwegian (Bokm?l) _blekk_, Swedish _bl?ck_ and Icelandic _blek_ in the same sense, also Old and Middle German _blah_. (Cf. WFries. _bleek_, Dutch _bleek_, LS _bleek_ [blEIk], German _bleich_, D. _bleg_, D-N. _blek_, S. _blek_, Icel. _bleikur_ 'faded', 'pale', 'colorless', cf. English _bleak_, _bleach_). Any input would be appreciated. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Mon Oct 28 23:58:22 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 15:58:22 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Michael Arnold Subject: Origin of "Familie" This is my first post! Anyways... I was in German class the other day when we started a new "Thema" intitled Familie. I asked the instructor why we didn't pronounce Familie the way it was spelt but rather like Familju. He did not know. I know this doesn't really relate to any of the lowlands languages, but I was hoping someone would know. -Michael Arnold ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] Hi! There is also "blak" as in water that is totally calm, no wind, for sailing. in my dialekt...salland netherlands. Wim. wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Ruud Harmsen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] 11:03 28-10-2002 -0800, Lowlands-L: >From: R. F. Hahn >Apparently, the origin of English "black" is unknown, but I would like us to >take a crack at shedding some light on it anyway. Could Dutch "blakeren" be connected? It means "make black, as a result of soot, when flames touch a surface". The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal) says about it (I quote only part of the entry): === BLAKEREN, bedr. en onz. zw. ww. Een frequentatieve vorm van Blaken. 1) Branden, blaken, gloeien. a) In 't algemeen. || 't Blickren van 't geweer, en 't blaeckren van het vier, HOOFT, Ged. 1, 90 . Wy saghen van 't Gheberght het blaack'ren in de Dallen (t. w. in den oorlog), BREDERO 1, 46 . Een lichte vlamme, die in 't stroo blaeckert, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . De hei zelve is grauw-zwart, en schijnt te blakeren, SEGERS in Ned. Dicht- en Kunsth. 1887, 336 . b) Van de zon. || Als de zonne meest blakert en steeckt, is de reghen veerdighst, om neer te storten, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . Ick laet het blaeckeren, en regenen, de douwen, WESTERBAEN, Ged. 1, 184 . === About "blaken" it says: === BLAKEN, onz. en bedr. zw. ww. Mnl. blaken (VERDAM 1, 1284), nd. blaken (D. Wtb. 2, 62); daarnaast mnl. blaexeme (VERDAM 1, 1283), ohd. blecchan (zie BLEKKEN); verder verwant met lat. flagrare en gr. fl?x, fl?gw. Een stam die ook in beteekenis eenigzins op dien van blaken gelijkt, vindt men in woorden als bleek, blijken, blikken. Reeds in de 17de eeuw behoorde het woord tot de dichterlijke of althans meer gezochte taal. A) Onz. 1) In vuur en vlammen staan, branden, gloeien. || De ziele daeromme blaken moet In d'helsche gloet, V. D. MEULEN, Ketiuigh. 77 . In teeuwich blaken, 120 . Doen lietmen Perillus daer inne blaken (t. w. in den stier van Phalaris), MOERMAN, Clein Werelt 28 b . De kaerssen op 't autaer Sijn sommigen gebluscht, en sommigen die blaecken, VONDEL 3, 394 . 't Flikkrend wachtvuur, dat men voor een tent zag blaken, TER HAAR, Ged. 1, 226 . De blakende kolk (t. w. eene stad die in brand staat), CONCIENCE 1, 319 b . - Figuurlijk van het "oorlogsvuur" en derg. || Alzoo de oproer vast bet en bet blaakte, HOOFT, N. H. 872 . Het blaken van dien burgerkrijg, STIJL, Opk. 353 . Toch blijft zij (t. w. de vlam van den opstand) blaken, VUYLSTEKE, Ged. 2, 88 . 2) Eene gloeiende hitte van zich geven, uitstralen. || Wanneer de son ... Van boven blaeckt En steeckt, VONDEL 2, 733 . Den gloed van 't blakend zonnevuur, DE MARRE, Bat. 104 (zie ook 173 ). De blakende hette, TEN KATE, Job 149 . - Ook van het "koortsvuur". || Als ... door heete koorts het lichaam brand end blaackt, HOFFERUS 382 . Ziekten, wier verterend blaken ons de jeugd te vroeg verslijt, D. J. V. LENNEP 233 . 3) Een schitterend licht uitstralen, glanzen, fonkelen, schitteren. === -- Ruud Harmsen Site updated 25 Oct 2002: http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for your interesting responses (above), folks. Colin, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has _blank_ as one word for "white" (besides _witt_), frequently in the sense of "glaringly white," and also meaning "shiny" (e.g., metal, or "teary" or "excited" in the context of eyes). _Blank_ is also found in place names (e.g., Blankenese "white spit (of land)," now a part of Hamburg). Afrikaans also uses _blank_ for "white," as many of you may remember from signs seen in photographs and footage from the apartheid era. But how do you explain */blak/ vs. */blank/, i.e., the loss of the nasal? ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:02:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:02:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] Message-ID: Please disregard the preceding incomplete version. It escaped ... RFH ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Michael Arnold Subject: Origin of "Familie" This is my first post! Anyways... I was in German class the other day when we started a new "Thema" intitled Familie. I asked the instructor why we didn't pronounce Familie the way it was spelt but rather like Familju. He did not know. I know this doesn't really relate to any of the lowlands languages, but I was hoping someone would know. -Michael Arnold ---------- From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] Hi! There is also "blak" as in water that is totally calm, no wind, for sailing. in my dialekt...salland netherlands. Wim. wkv at home.nl [Wim Verdoold] ---------- From: Ruud Harmsen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] 11:03 28-10-2002 -0800, Lowlands-L: >From: R. F. Hahn >Apparently, the origin of English "black" is unknown, but I would like us to >take a crack at shedding some light on it anyway. Could Dutch "blakeren" be connected? It means "make black, as a result of soot, when flames touch a surface". The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal) says about it (I quote only part of the entry): === BLAKEREN, bedr. en onz. zw. ww. Een frequentatieve vorm van Blaken. 1) Branden, blaken, gloeien. a) In 't algemeen. || 't Blickren van 't geweer, en 't blaeckren van het vier, HOOFT, Ged. 1, 90 . Wy saghen van 't Gheberght het blaack'ren in de Dallen (t. w. in den oorlog), BREDERO 1, 46 . Een lichte vlamme, die in 't stroo blaeckert, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . De hei zelve is grauw-zwart, en schijnt te blakeren, SEGERS in Ned. Dicht- en Kunsth. 1887, 336 . b) Van de zon. || Als de zonne meest blakert en steeckt, is de reghen veerdighst, om neer te storten, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . Ick laet het blaeckeren, en regenen, de douwen, WESTERBAEN, Ged. 1, 184 . === About "blaken" it says: === BLAKEN, onz. en bedr. zw. ww. Mnl. blaken (VERDAM 1, 1284), nd. blaken (D. Wtb. 2, 62); daarnaast mnl. blaexeme (VERDAM 1, 1283), ohd. blecchan (zie BLEKKEN); verder verwant met lat. flagrare en gr. fl?x, fl?gw. Een stam die ook in beteekenis eenigzins op dien van blaken gelijkt, vindt men in woorden als bleek, blijken, blikken. Reeds in de 17de eeuw behoorde het woord tot de dichterlijke of althans meer gezochte taal. A) Onz. 1) In vuur en vlammen staan, branden, gloeien. || De ziele daeromme blaken moet In d'helsche gloet, V. D. MEULEN, Ketiuigh. 77 . In teeuwich blaken, 120 . Doen lietmen Perillus daer inne blaken (t. w. in den stier van Phalaris), MOERMAN, Clein Werelt 28 b . De kaerssen op 't autaer Sijn sommigen gebluscht, en sommigen die blaecken, VONDEL 3, 394 . 't Flikkrend wachtvuur, dat men voor een tent zag blaken, TER HAAR, Ged. 1, 226 . De blakende kolk (t. w. eene stad die in brand staat), CONCIENCE 1, 319 b . - Figuurlijk van het "oorlogsvuur" en derg. || Alzoo de oproer vast bet en bet blaakte, HOOFT, N. H. 872 . Het blaken van dien burgerkrijg, STIJL, Opk. 353 . Toch blijft zij (t. w. de vlam van den opstand) blaken, VUYLSTEKE, Ged. 2, 88 . 2) Eene gloeiende hitte van zich geven, uitstralen. || Wanneer de son ... Van boven blaeckt En steeckt, VONDEL 2, 733 . Den gloed van 't blakend zonnevuur, DE MARRE, Bat. 104 (zie ook 173 ). De blakende hette, TEN KATE, Job 149 . - Ook van het "koortsvuur". || Als ... door heete koorts het lichaam brand end blaackt, HOFFERUS 382 . Ziekten, wier verterend blaken ons de jeugd te vroeg verslijt, D. J. V. LENNEP 233 . 3) Een schitterend licht uitstralen, glanzen, fonkelen, schitteren. === -- Ruud Harmsen Site updated 25 Oct 2002: http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm ---------- From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] At 19:03 28/10/02, R. F. Hahn wrote: >In many Lowlands Saxon (Low Saxon) dialects, _Black_ means 'ink', which, >again, does not have to be of black color (though originally it probably >was, being made from some sort of soot). Danish has _bl?k_, Dano-Norwegian >(Bokm?l) _blekk_, Swedish _bl?ck_ and Icelandic _blek_ in the same sense, >also Old and Middle German _blah_. (Cf. WFries. _bleek_, Dutch _bleek_, LS >_bleek_ [blEIk], German _bleich_, D. _bleg_, D-N. _blek_, S. _blek_, Icel. >_bleikur_ 'faded', 'pale', 'colorless', cf. English _bleak_, _bleach_). Not to mention English/Scots "blank", and French "blanc(he)" with numerous cognates in the Romance languages. So that's the origin of "black" - it really means "white"! Interestingly, on sailing out of Helsinki's south harbour, the first island that one passes is known in Finnish as _Valkosaari_ ("white island") and in Swedish as _Blekholmen_. Goodwill to all, Colin Wilson. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Thanks for your interesting responses (above), folks. Colin, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has _blank_ as one word for "white" (besides _witt_), frequently in the sense of "glaringly white," and also meaning "shiny" (e.g., metal, or "teary" or "excited" in the context of eyes). _Blank_ is also found in place names (e.g., Blankenese "white spit (of land)," now a part of Hamburg). Afrikaans also uses _blank_ for "white," as many of you may remember from signs seen in photographs and footage from the apartheid era. But how do you explain */blak/ vs. */blank/, i.e., the loss of the nasal? Michael, welcome! I understand that German got _Familie_ from Latin _familia_ rather than from French _familie_, hence the final schwa vowel developed from _a_. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:03:50 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:03:50 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Gary Taylor Subject: Labels Hi All George wrote An Ontario friend of mine notes that it is possible in that province to find a P.C. (Progressive Conservative) who is quite p.c. (politically correct). He assures me that such a person is also almost certain to own a p.c. (personal computer.) Is it also possible for this person to be a retired PC (Police Constable) from England? :) Gary ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:06:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:06:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.28 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Orthography" > From: R. F. Hahn mailto:sassisch at yahoo.com > Subject: Orthography > Och, A wis jist ettlin tae say sumhin lik "I'm afraid that ..." Hoo wuid ye > say at (gin at au)? "A'm feart at ..."? Ye wadna say that in Scots, as faur's A ken. A kipple o weys o startin a sentence: "A dout..." /V du?/ "I suppose/reckon/guess..." "A daur say..." /V da:r se:/ or /dQ:r/ "I dare say..." Thir can be uized as hale phrases or sentences but ye hae tae watch the stress pattern with "daur": "Ay, A dout." /a:i V du?/ "I guess." "Ay A daur say." /a:(j)V 'da:rsI/ "Yes, of course." "Ay, A daur say." /a:i V 'da:r se:/ "Yes, I dare say." an the negative forms: "A dout no." /V du? no:/ "I guess not." "A daur say no." /V 'da:rsI no:/ "Of course not." > "Diaphonemics across dialecks" soonds guid (geud?). Noo ye're truelins > speikin ma langage! Bit A unerstaun at there's aye a mids i the sea atween > at an whit five echt can accep. It's "guid". Ye juist gits -> afore /x/ or /k/. Like Andy explained, the pronunciations depends on dialeck. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:30:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:30:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.28 (11) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (10) [S] At 06:26 28/10/02, Sandy Fleming wrote: >1. Colin (A think) haes tried tae follae dictionars like the >SND an CSD. The spellins in thame's aa tae crockanition, tho >A'm shuir Colin's managed tae pit some order on the chaos for >his beuk (an thare a example o ae differ - Colin writes >lippenin tae the dictionars an certain historical uises, while >A write tae better shaw the modern soondin o the wird). Sandy's richt on aw coonts there. Hou muckle "order" A'v pitten on the maitter, A dinna ken, bit it's likelie nae muckle. A'll mebbe jist say agane whit A'v tellt fowk at the beginnin o the buik, that the main ettle ahint the written Scots in it is tae be a wey o pittin ower the spoken material, nae for it tae be (y)uised as a foond for the reader's ain written Scots. >2. Colin writes a afore wirds like - this aye >surprises me cause A soonds this (/j/) in ma ain dialeck >but A wadna thocht a Buchan man like Colin wad a soondit it! Gin A wis fae Buchan A'd suin agree win Sandy here - still, A'm fae Deeside, aboot thertie mile tae the sooth, an even ower that distance there's differs atween the wey some wirds is pronoonce't. Maist times A'd pit the "y" soond in - A michtna, gin A wis wi haein a lang speik wi somebodie fae further north an hearin the wirds wi'oot it, an drappin the "y" micht "rub aff" on me for a whilie. For aw that, it's true that A spellt the wirds wi a "y" jist cause thon's whit the CESD gies, an A tried tae bide wi hit as faur as A cud dae. Truth be tellt, A think they luik better wi'oot it. In the bygaun, A'm richt interestit tae see the Luath Scots Language Learner comin intae the cantations here, an A'm gled o the kind things that's been said aboot it. Guidwull tae aw, Colin Wilson. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Orthography Colin: > In the bygaun, A'm richt interestit tae see the Luath Scots > Language Learner comin intae the cantations here, an A'm gled o > the kind things that's been said aboot it.* Ay, Colin, A dout (lernin fae Sandy!) at's jist the stert o it. Hoo dae ye say "You created a monster" in Scots? (Weel, it's a wee onbeastie yet; still an on it's awfie fashious auready, is ye can see.) Regairds, Reinhard/Ron * Wilson, L. Colin (2002): The Luath Scots Language Learner, ISBN 0 946487 91 X, with CDs (ISBN 1 84282 026 5 CD RRP); Edinburgh (Scotland): Luath Press (http://www.luath.co.uk/book/language_scotslearner.htm). It's rare! ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 00:33:32 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 16:33:32 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (12) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Nigel Smith Subject: Etymology Ron Hahn wrote: RH > Can any of you help me with the etymology of the Dutch word > _makker_ and the > Lowlands Saxon (Low German) word _Macker_ ['mak3`], both meaning 'friend', > 'chum', 'buddy', 'mate'? The word "mucker" (with [V], at least the way I pronounce it) exists in (at least some varieties) of English. Chambers gives "a best friend, mate, sidekick" among its other definitions of _mucker_. Personally I have only ever heard it used by Irish people on television (I am not familiar enough with Ireland to know whether it is generally used there or not). I had always assumed that it was a form found in Irish English, perhaps a loan from Irish Gaelic. Nigel Smith ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 01:06:52 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 17:06:52 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.28 (13) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 28.OCT.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Idiomatica A (uner "Orthography" the day): > Ay, Colin, A dout (lernin fae Sandy!) at's jist the stert o it. Hoo dae ye > say "You created a monster" in Scots? (Weel, it's a wee onbeastie yet; > still an on it's awfie fashious auready, is ye can see.) Dang! Whit A wis at wis "Hoo DIV ye say ..." It's ill tae mind fur Sassenachs an Saxons. Regairds, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 15:55:14 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:55:14 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.29 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] Dear all, Gary and George wrote: From: Gary Taylor Subject: Labels "Hi All George wrote An Ontario friend of mine notes that it is possible in that province to find a P.C. (Progressive Conservative) who is quite p.c. (politically correct). He assures me that such a person is also almost certain to own a p.c. (personal computer.) Is it also possible for this person to be a retired PC (Police Constable) from England? :)" Nonsense, Gary! Everyone knows he would have been a retired PC (police constable) from West Wales where he would have spent his life as a faithful supporter of PC (Plaid Cymru, the Party for Wales). Poppy cock! :) Go raibh maith agaibh Cr?ost?ir. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 15:56:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:56:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2002.10.29 (02) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska (daniel at ryan-prohaska.com) Subject: LL-L "Phoneme Distribution" Leve L??, I have a question pertaining the monophthongisation of Gmc */ai/ and the relationship between Old Frisian, Old English and Old Saxon, here goes: Whereas OE monophthongised Gmc */ai/ to OE /?/ (st?n, ?c, r?p, cl?th), OF underwent a phonemic split into OF /?/ in Proto-OF /?-/ in (*st?-n, *?-k), and /?/ in (*r?p, *kl?th). Under which circumstances did proto-OF split the Gmc phoneme */ai/? Lexical distribution appears to be the same in all the modern Frisian varieties (ecept where loans from LG or D have replaced the original F word). Eastern Westphalian and Eastphalian seem also to have undergone a phonemic split in OS/LG /?2/ (from Gmc */ai/). Is this a related change? What were the criteria for the split? Lexical distribution? Frisian influence? Do the OF/OS word pairs match in this split? Any answer would be appreciated, Gr?tens, Daniel ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 16:06:39 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 08:06:39 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (12) [E] Dear all, Nigel wrote: "The word "mucker" (with [V], at least the way I pronounce it) exists in (at least some varieties) of English. Chambers gives "a best friend, mate, sidekick" among its other definitions of _mucker_. Personally I have only ever heard it used by Irish people on television (I am not familiar enough with Ireland to know whether it is generally used there or not). I had always assumed that it was a form found in Irish English, perhaps a loan from Irish Gaelic." Indeed. "Mucker" is the Derry term par excellence. It seems to mean "mate" in the same sort of formations as most English dialects, e.g., "How 'bout ye, mucker!" where I would say, "Ey up, mate, aa yuh doein?" As far as I can tell, from hunches and the like, it seems to have had a rural source and is still treated as a quaint country term. In Irish "muc" means "pig" and "muceoir" or whatever its Gaelic form is, might have originally been (going on scurrilous conjecture here) a Gaelic term for a specific job on the farm specialising in pig-tending that was later transferred to a more generic meaning of affability and friendliness. Does Ian Parsley have anything to add about the use of "mucker" in Ulster Scots? My sense is that it's a Gaelic-originating Scots word (Co. Derry is, as far as I know, still a Scots-speaking area). Areas I have heard the term are limited to Cos. Derry and Tyrone... I'm not sure it's used in Donegal except in, say, the Laggan. Go raibh maith agaibh, Cr?ost?ir. ---------- From: burgdal32admin burgdal32 at pandora.be Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] > From: Wim > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] > > Hi! > There is also "blak" as in water that is totally calm, no wind, for > sailing. in my dialekt...salland netherlands. > > Wim. wkv at home.nl > [Wim Verdoold] > > ---------- > > From: Ruud Harmsen > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] > > 11:03 28-10-2002 -0800, Lowlands-L: >> From: R. F. Hahn >> Apparently, the origin of English "black" is unknown, but I would > like us to >> take a crack at shedding some light on it anyway. > > Could Dutch "blakeren" be connected? It means "make black, as a > result of soot, when flames touch a surface". > > The WNT (Woordenboek der Nederlandse Taal) says about it (I quote > only part of the entry): > === > BLAKEREN, bedr. en onz. zw. ww. Een frequentatieve vorm van Blaken. > 1) Branden, blaken, gloeien. > a) In 't algemeen. || 't Blickren van 't geweer, en 't blaeckren van > het vier, HOOFT, Ged. 1, 90 . Wy saghen van 't Gheberght het > blaack'ren in de Dallen (t. w. in den oorlog), BREDERO 1, 46 . Een > lichte vlamme, die in 't stroo blaeckert, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . > De hei zelve is grauw-zwart, en schijnt te blakeren, SEGERS in Ned. > Dicht- en Kunsth. 1887, 336 . > b) Van de zon. || Als de zonne meest blakert en steeckt, is de > reghen veerdighst, om neer te storten, DE BRUNE, Bank. 1, 272 . Ick > laet het blaeckeren, en regenen, de douwen, WESTERBAEN, Ged. 1, 184 . > === > > About "blaken" it says: > > === > BLAKEN, onz. en bedr. zw. ww. Mnl. blaken (VERDAM 1, 1284), nd. > blaken (D. Wtb. 2, 62); daarnaast mnl. blaexeme (VERDAM 1, 1283), > ohd. blecchan (zie BLEKKEN); verder verwant met lat. flagrare en gr. > fl?x, fl?gw. Een stam die ook in beteekenis eenigzins op dien van > blaken gelijkt, vindt men in woorden als bleek, blijken, blikken. > Reeds in de 17de eeuw behoorde het woord tot de dichterlijke of > althans meer gezochte taal. > A) Onz. > 1) In vuur en vlammen staan, branden, gloeien. || De ziele daeromme > blaken moet In d'helsche gloet, V. D. MEULEN, Ketiuigh. 77 . In > teeuwich blaken, 120 . Doen lietmen Perillus daer inne blaken (t. w. > in den stier van Phalaris), MOERMAN, Clein Werelt 28 b . De kaerssen > op 't autaer Sijn sommigen gebluscht, en sommigen die blaecken, > VONDEL 3, 394 . 't Flikkrend wachtvuur, dat men voor een tent zag > blaken, TER HAAR, Ged. 1, 226 . De blakende kolk (t. w. eene stad > die in brand staat), CONCIENCE 1, 319 b . > - Figuurlijk van het "oorlogsvuur" en derg. || Alzoo de oproer vast > bet en bet blaakte, HOOFT, N. H. 872 . Het blaken van dien > burgerkrijg, STIJL, Opk. 353 . Toch blijft zij (t. w. de vlam van > den opstand) blaken, VUYLSTEKE, Ged. 2, 88 . > 2) Eene gloeiende hitte van zich geven, uitstralen. || Wanneer de > son ... Van boven blaeckt En steeckt, VONDEL 2, 733 . Den gloed van > 't blakend zonnevuur, DE MARRE, Bat. 104 (zie ook 173 ). De > blakende hette, TEN KATE, Job 149 . > - Ook van het "koortsvuur". || Als ... door heete koorts het lichaam > brand end blaackt, HOFFERUS 382 . Ziekten, wier verterend blaken ons > de jeugd te vroeg verslijt, D. J. V. LENNEP 233 . > 3) Een schitterend licht uitstralen, glanzen, fonkelen, schitteren. > === > > -- > Ruud Harmsen > Site updated 25 Oct 2002: http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm > > ---------- > > > From: R. F. Hahn > Subject: Etymology > > Thanks for your interesting responses (above), folks. > > Colin, Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has _blank_ as one word for "white" > (besides _witt_), frequently in the sense of "glaringly white," and > also > meaning "shiny" (e.g., metal, or "teary" or "excited" in the context of > eyes). _Blank_ is also found in place names (e.g., Blankenese "white > spit > (of land)," now a part of Hamburg). Afrikaans also uses _blank_ for > "white," as many of you may remember from signs seen in photographs and > footage from the apartheid era. > > But how do you explain */blak/ vs. */blank/, i.e., the loss of the > nasal? Hello, Here is some Flemish brainstorming: "Westvlaamsch Idioticom" by De Bo writes: -blaaieren (= blaaisteren) : Frequent. van blaaien, vlammen, laaien, schitterende branden (Fr: flamboyer) Het vuur blaaiert. De blaaierende vlam van den heerd verlicht geheel de kamer. -blak: hetzelfde als vlak, effen, bloot open. Het blakke veld. De blakke zee?Dat huis staat blak(in eene bloote en opene plaats). Tautologie: De tafel staat blak en bloot (Er ligt helemaal niets op). In Noord-Vlaanderen is een streek blak en bloot als de oogst geweerd is. Subst.: In't blakke ziet men verre. Ten blakke komen= te voorschijn komen Ten blakke zitten= in eene opene bloote plaats zitten. Zich met den blakke trekken=weggaan uit eene plaats waar men blootgesteld en in gevaar is. -blaken: In gloed zijn. Als het houtvuur uitgevlamd is, dan liggen de gloeiende kolen te blaken. De blaasbalg doet de smiskolen blaken om er 't ijzer in te gloeien. Blakende kolen geven een blauw laaiken. De vuurpot blaakt te stijf, doe er een weinig asschen op. -blaker: Ijzeren blad dat men hangt voor een open vier of kachel zonder deur, om het vier aan te jagen, anders ook aanjager, jacht en klep. De groote en de kleine blaker van een openvier. Den blaker aanhangen, afnemen. Den blaker laten gloeien. ook: papieren of metalen lichtweerkaatser op eene quinquetlamp. De blaker kaatst het licht nederwaarts. Volgens Kramers en Kiliaen ook een hanglamp of keersepan. -blakeren: Met den blaker aanjagen. Het vuur moet geblakerd worden totdat de kolen wel branden. Die stove trekt niet: Ik moet ze altijd blakeren. -blank: *De daad van blinken, glans van iets dat glad gewreven of gepolijsterd is. De blank van gepolijsterd metaal. De blank van gepoetste schoenen. Blank geven aan iets=Iets doen blinken.Blank krijgen=Beginnen blinken. De blank is eraf. De blank wegnemen. *Effen, glad, blak Blanke talje= kreupelbosch die afgekapt is aan den grond. *Op gelijke hoogte, even hoog. Het water van den gracht stond blanke met de straat. Twee tafels blanke stellen bij malkaar. *Blanke vol.Effen vol. Een glas blanke vul schenken (boordevol)Telkens het vloed is, staan die meerschen blanke vul (effen vol water). * Overstroomd, met water bedekt. Geheel die weide staat blank. De weg lag blank. * 't Is al blanke + naamw.=louter.Het is al blanke water dat men ziet(Men ziet niets anders dan water). Het was al blanke soldaten in het ronde. Het is al blanke koorn zo verre men kan zien. -blankaard: Blanke vallei, uitgestrekte waterplas, vijver. De groote vijver van Merckhem heet Blankaard. In den Blankaard visschen. 's Winters schaverdijnt men op den Blankaard. Some other remarks, -"Blank" is indeed found in place names: Blankenberge, a coasttown in West-Flanders Blankaard, a pool in W-Fl. Blanc-nez in French- Flanders which means exactly the same as "Blankeness" in Hamburg (And not so far from Blanc-Nez is a village called Hames-Boucres, which is derived from Hamburg). -The word "blanc" is used in French for "white"(the frankish influence). In a Roman language it should normally have to be "alba". Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Etymology Luc: > "Blankeness" in Hamburg It's "Blankenese". I assume this _nese_, meaning 'spit (of land)', 'headland', '(small) cape', is related to English "ness." Interestingly, it seems to be a homophone of Middle Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _nese_ (still preserved as such in some dialects, ['ne:ze]) > _Nees'_ [ne:.z] 'nose'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] > From: Michael Arnold > Subject: Origin of "Familie" > > This is my first post! Anyways... I was in German class the other day > when > we started a new "Thema" intitled Familie. I asked the instructor why > we > didn't pronounce Familie the way it was spelt but rather like Familju. > He > did not know. I know this doesn't really relate to any of the lowlands > languages, but I was hoping someone would know. > > -Michael Arnold Hello Michael, In Flanders we pronounce "ie" when the sound is stressed. When it is not, we say "i?" [i@]. We use that in particular for the deminitives. So we also say "familie" in the same way. Groetjes Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 21:22:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:22:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Acronyms" 2002.10.29 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Wim Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.29 (01) [E] Hi? PC? Ode to the Spell Checker Eye halve a spelling checker It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say Weather eye am wrong oar write, It shows me strait a weigh. As soon as a mist ache is maid, it nose bee fore two long And eye can put the error rite its rare lea ever wrong. Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no its letter; perfect awl the weigh my checker tolled me sew. Bye. From: Lowlands Languages & Cultures [mailto:LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG] On Behalf Of Lowlands-L Sent: dinsdag 29 oktober 2002 16:55 To: LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.29 (01) [E] From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] Dear all, Gary and George wrote: From: Gary Taylor Subject: Labels "Hi All George wrote An Ontario friend of mine notes that it is possible in that province to find a P.C. (Progressive Conservative) who is quite p.c. (politically correct). He assures me that such a person is also almost certain to own a p.c. (personal computer.) Is it also possible for this person to be a retired PC (Police Constable) from England? :)" Nonsense, Gary! Everyone knows he would have been a retired PC (police constable) from West Wales where he would have spent his life as a faithful supporter of PC (Plaid Cymru, the Party for Wales). Poppy cock! :) Go raibh maith agaibh Cr?ost?ir. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 21:30:10 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 13:30:10 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (04) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: elsie zinsser ezinsser at icon.co.za Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] Haai almal, Re: "Blakeren": In Afrikaans a "blaker" is a candlestick holder, and possibly related to blak or black. Ron, the racial term in Afrikaans _blank_ is not used anymore. I saw today in an article in the NY Times the term "non-black" being used and I suspect this might catch on as time goes by. Groete, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: oostendse verhalen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] Luc Vanbranbant haalde het voorbeeld Cap-Blanc-Nez aan. Minder vergeten is dat de oorspronkelijke Vlaamse naam voor die rotsen "Blankenisse" is blanc = wit, nisse is neus exact hetzelfde als Blankeniss in Hamburg Danny drooghenbroodt Oostende ---------- From: oostendse verhalen Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (07) [E] Ik vroeg me ook af of er enig verband bestaat tussen "black" en het Nederlandse "bleek" of het oostendse "bl?k" 1) In het Nederlands gebruiken we bleek om een lichte kleur aan te duiden. bv. bleek grijs, bleek blauw, bleek groen -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) In Oostende zeggen we ook bl?k zwart als we een echt diepe zwarte kleur bedoelen. (bl?k van black of omgekeerd?) bl?k zwart = diep zwart -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Bl?k betekent ook schreeuwerige kleur (bl?k groen = opvallend groen) D: Bleek groen = licht groen Oostends: Bl?k groen = schreeuwerig groen, opvallend groen ... --------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) Bl?k wordt ook gebruikt om iets blinkend of schitterend aan te duiden. De zunne bl?kt in je ogen De deuhenieterie bl?kt in je ogen (je ogen schitteren van ondeugendheid -- pretlichtjes in je ogen) Danny drooghenbroodt oostende ---------- From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Etymology Beste li?glanners, Brabantish also has the word "blak" in its vocabulary, but I only know it from a few expressions like : "'t l??t d?? blak en bloe?t, 't bajt bekanst in a bi?n", meaning "it's lying there totally uncovered, bare and so visible that it's almost biting your leg"...in some regions it's rather "blijk en bloot", that is heard. "nen blakke kater" = "een blakke kouter" (D), "een blak veld" : said of a vast field, where there's no physical obstruction, where everything is in plain view...however it does not necessarily refer to "flat", quite a number of people (mistakenly) think it's just another way of pronouncing "vlak", which it is not..."vlak" (D) is usually "plat" in Brabantish. In short, "blak" (B) means : open, exposed to light. It's worth mentioning that this word is only known in Dutch and a few Baltic (Lithuanian "blakas" = equal and Latvian "blaks" = smooth, the surface of the sea when there's no wind) languages. De Vries thinks they might be inherited from a substrate language. Could this be a relic of those pre-Indo-European languages of the Baltic-Finnic group that we briefly discussed earlier on ? It's only a small step to "blec" from here, an old dutch word that is used to describe a patch of land that is almost "drowning" *s*, up till its nose in the water, but part of it is still glittering in the sun. This brings me to the verb "blikken" which is used in Brabantish when a card has to be turned upside down. She is then lying barenaked on the table, in full view. Besides, the word "naked" is always pronounced "not" (in card games for example : "'k ?m d'n i?r not" or "a was m?? p?rnot geklid", litterally signifying : he was dressed like a toad, being scantily clad). Regarding "Blanc Nez" and "Blankenese", I would like to quote De Vries on nes : "...'buitendijks land, vaak door aanslibbing gevormd, eig. landpunt'. mnl. nesse, nes m. v. 'stuk land van een bepaalde vorm' eig. 'landtong', mnd. nes m. 'landtong; voorgebergte' (alleen in plaatsnamen bewaard), oe. n?ss m., on. nes o. < germ. *nasja, vgl. russ. nosu 'voorgebergte'. - Zie verder : neus. Vaak voorkomend in plaatsnamen zoals Nes, Nisse en in samenstellingen zoals Scherpenisse, evenals ook Terneuzen. Another Brabantish word that is related to this lot is "bla?k", "bleek" (D), "bli?k" in Flemish, the name for a patch of grass that is used to bleach the linen, again exposure to light (the sun in this case) is obvious. However, the Dutch dictionary of Van Dale broadens the meaning of "blak" (D), saying it could be used for any object having a colour that "differs, contrasts with the environment"...and so not only clear, visible, white and shining objects could be explained, but also dark items like "black" ink on a white background or dusk (shimmering light opposed to broad daylight)...I agree this explanation itself sounds pretty obscure *s*. Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 22:20:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 14:20:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.29 (05) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Vocabulary" This submission is about rude words, so don't read on if you don't like this sort of thing. I've been wondering about everyday words that many people consider to be rude, especially if, because of their status, they rarely appear in traditional literature. My contributions will be with respect to how this sort of thing is said in my own dialect of Scots. The questions are: 1. Are the same words used in other dialects of Scots, or are my own ones non-standard? 2. How are they said in other Lowlands languages? Are there unexpected similarities? "F" and "C" Words: These are exactly the same in (my dialect of) Scots as in English, though in rural Scots they're rarely used. So I don't really have anything to say about them in this context. There are some other rude words which are just as in English, which I'll refrain from mentioning as also not being very interesting in this context. "Fart" This is the same as in English, though of course pronounced /fQ:r?/. I was surprised to find that in England and Wales this isn't considered particularly rude, which makes sense as it's a very necessary word. In my area of Scotland, however, it would be more usual to substitute a euphemism. "Burp" In (my dialect of) Scots, this is "rift". However, I have come across it once in the literature, in John Hamilton's "More Country Capers", a book of stories and poems in Ayrshire dialect, so this must be widespread in the south of Scotland at least. In a poem about a local baker: His mornin rolls ar fou o holes, Inside, there's little body, They hiv the gift tae gar ye rift, For they'r fou o bakin sodae. "Tits" In my area this is "dous" /du:z/, which, taken literally, means "doves". However, "dou" in the singular is a term of endearment for a woman, and not offensive at all, as used in the drinking song "Toddlin Hame": Leez me on liqor, ma toddlin dou, Ye'r aye sae guid-humoured when ye'r weetin yer mou; Whan sober sae soor, ye'll fecht wi a flee, It maks a blythe nicht tae the bairns an me, Whan toddlin hame, toddlin hame, Whan roond as a neep ye come toddlin hame. "Balls" As well as using the Scots form of this word, we might say "nits" /nI?s/, meaning "nuts", although we use the alternative pronunciation /nV?s/ when speaking about the vegetable kind. "Piss" This is "pish", which I'm fairly sure is general Scots. It seems to be used in pretty much the same way as its English of England counterpart: "pishin doun" (pissing down rain) "rip the pish" (take the piss), "pished" (pissed = drunk). "Penis" "Tossle" /tos=l/ seems to be the most usual way of saying this in Scots: not as rude as some alternatives, yet not as polite as some. It literally means "tassle", and "tossle" is also used for tassles such as you see hanging from curtains and so on. A child's penis is refered to as a "peep" /pip/ in my dialect. "Arse" This is "erse". "Erse" can also mean the Irish language, but there's no connection between the two and they're never confused by native Scots speakers. A child's bottom might be referred to quite innocently as "ersie" as in this old rhyme intended to teach breastfeeding technique: Wamie tae wamie, Haunie tae back, Breestie tae mouie, Clap, ersie, clap. Here, "wamie, haunie, breestie, mouie /mu:I/, ersie" are all diminutives of "wame" (stomach/womb), "haun" (hand), "breest" (breast), "mou" (mouth) and "erse" (arse). "Clap" means to pat or stroke. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon Sandy, Lowlanders, A couple of subscribers' naughtiness filters are going to have a field day. I can see the rejecttion messages coming already. :) For whatever it's worth, here are the Northern Lowlands Saxon (Low German) equivalents I can come up with (not that I would know such naughty language, though): R = rude, MP = more polite > "Fart" noun: Puup [p_hu:p] (masc., pl. __s(e)_) Scheet [Se:t] (masc., pl. ___) verb: pupen ['p_hu:pm=], puupsen ['p_hu:psn=] MP: eenen gahn/fahrn laten ["to let one go"] > "Burp" verb: MP: upst?ten ['?Upst9Itn=] MP: upbolken ['?UpbolkN=] MP: upkolken ['?UpkolkN=] > "Tits" noun: R: Titt [t_hIt] (masc., pl. __en_) MP: Bossen ['bOsn=] (masc., pl. __s) MP: Bost ~ Boss [bOs(t)] (fem., pl. __en_) > "Balls" noun: Kl??t [kl9It] (masc., pl. Kl?ten) > "Piss" noun: Piss ['p_hIs] MP: Pie ['p_hi:] verb: pissen ['p_hIsn=] pirsen ['p_hI3`zn=] miegen ['mi:gN=] schiffen ['SIfm=] pullern ['p_hUl3`n] strullen ['strU.ln] MP: pien [p_hi:n] MP: watern ['vQ:te3`n] MP: Water laten ['vQ:t3` 'lQ:tn=] > "Penis" noun: Pint [p_hInt] (masc., pl. ___s) Pieler(t) ['p_hi:l3`(t)] (masc., pl. __s) Piedel ['p_hi:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) Piehahn ~ Piehaan ['p_hi:hQ:n] (masc., pl. __s) R: Pisser ['pIs3`] (masc., pl. __s) R: D?del ['d9:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) Pesel ['p_he:sl=] masc., pl. __s) [mostly of animals] > "Arse" noun: Aars ~ Oors [?Q:3`s] ~ [?o:3`s] (masc., pl. __(e)) Maars ~ Moors [mQ:3`s] ~ [mo:3`s] (masc., pl. __(e)) Naars ~ Noors [nQ:3`s] ~ [n3`:as] (masc., pl. __(e)) Eers [e:3`s] (masc., pl. __(e)) Gatt [gat] (neut., pl. __s) K?telkist ['k_h9:tl=kIs(t)] (fem., pl. __en) ["turd box"] MP: Steert [steI3`t] (masc., pl. __en) ["tail"] MP: Achtersten ['?axt3`stn=] (masc., pl. ___) ["hindmost (one)"] MP: Achterback ['?axt3`bak] (fem., pl. __en) ["hind cheek"] MP: Achtersteven ['?axt3`ste:vm=] (masc., pl. __s) ["hindquarter"] MP: Sett-di-daal ['zEtidQ:l] (masc., pl. __s) ["sit-yourself-down"] MP: P?ter ['p_h9:t3`] (masc., pl. __s ~ ___n, a child's) MP: P?ker ['p_h9:k3`] (masc., pl. __s ~ ___n, a child's) There you have it! (I wonder what our new subscribers will think.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Tue Oct 29 23:00:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 15:00:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2002.10.29 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 29.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Help needed I have received a request (below) to date signatures that, according to the description given, are Dutch (probably not Lowlands Saxon/Low German, which would have _book_ or _bouk_ rather than _boek_). If anyone can help with dating early Dutch signatures, please contact Daniel Rettberg (drettberg at huc.edu) directly. I wonder if the said book was taken or sent from Italy to then still young Sephardic community of the region that now encompasses the Netherlands and Northern Germany. It certainly sounds most fascinating. Thanks and regards. Reinhard/Ron === I am writing to you on the recommendation of Prof. Stephen Crist at Emory University. I have a small Rabbinic piece (Pirke Avot) in Hebrew with Ladino translation, printed in 1601, probably in Venice. Unfortunately, it has lost its title leaf, and I am checking every "angle" I can to discover its history. The endpapers have several inscriptions, mostly names of previous owners. Interestingly enough for a book that may have had its origins in Italy and that has a Judaeo-Spanish translation accompanying it, these names are all Germanic in nature. One has written, "Dat is m... boek," in what appears to be a Dutch or Low German dialect. I would like to find someone capable of dating the signatures based on handwriting style, spelling, etc. Do you know someone familiar enough with seventeenth and eighteenth century German hands to be able to assist me? I can send photocopies of the inscriptions. Thank you in advance for any assistance you may be able to offer. Daniel J. Rettberg, Senior Associate Librarian Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion Klau Library Cincinnati, OH drettberg at huc.edu ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:35:12 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:35:12 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.30 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Thomas Byro Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.28 (03) [D/E] To Marco: I would suspect that the turning point for the Dutch spoken by the Jackson Whites came with WW II. At least, this seems to have marked the turning point for many other linguistic islands in the USA. I used to own a house on a mountaintop in the Catskills and several of my neighbors who were born just before or after WW II told me that Dutch was spoken in their homes as a daily language when they were growing up. German too. The area supported a local German newspaper that lasted until the 1960's. By the way, the Jackson Whites in appearance are largely of European decent. They are very mixed, however. Squeek deGroat had dusky skin and a bit of kinkiness in his hair but had European facial features. His cousin, the one with six fingers, had light blond hair and blue eyes. You can't really absolutely tell a Jackson White by appearance. Tom ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:38:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:38:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (02) [D/E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] At 00:02 29/10/02, Reinhard/Ron wrote: >But how do you explain */blak/ vs. */blank/, i.e., the loss of the nasal? A one-off quirk? Do such things happen in the evolution of language? Goodwill to all, Colin Wilson. ---------- From: burgdal32admin Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] > From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com > Subject: Etymology > > Luc: > >> "Blankeness" in Hamburg > > It's "Blankenese". I assume this _nese_, meaning 'spit (of land)', > 'headland', '(small) cape', is related to English "ness." > Interestingly, it > seems to be a homophone of Middle Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _nese_ > (still > preserved as such in some dialects, ['ne:ze]) > _Nees'_ [ne:.z] 'nose'. > > Regards, > Reinhard/Ron Ron, Sorry for the mistake! I had a look in a little book called "De Nederlanden in Frankrijk" by Jozef van Overstraeten(1969). -Cap Blanc-Nez (Blankenes of Wittenes) : Kaap aan het nauw van Kales (French: Calais) tussen Sangatte (V: Zandgat) en Wissant (V: Witzand) met loodrechte witte mergel- en krijtrotsen, 134 m hoog. Bij mooi weer ziet men zeer goed de Engelse kust (De "clifs of Dover") 1672:blanest, 17de eeuw:Le Blanest. -Cap Griz-Nez (Zwartenes): Gemeente in het land van Bonen (French: Boulogne). Op slechts 28 km van Engeland. 1546:Blanquen?s, 1660:Swartenes,1699:Swartenes of Grinay alias Grisnais of Grines. Oorspronkelijke betekenis: Craig-Ness = rotsenkaap (?) Groetjes, Luc Vanbrabant Oekene ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:39:59 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:39:59 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Acronyms" 2002.10.30 (03) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "Acronyms" 2002.10.29 (03) [E] "Hi? PC? Ode to the Spell Checker Eye halve a spelling checker It came with my pea sea It plainly marques four my revue Miss steaks eye kin knot sea. Eye strike a key and type a word And weight four it two say Weather eye am wrong oar write, It shows me strait a weigh. As soon as a mist ache is maid, it nose bee fore two long And eye can put the error rite its rare lea ever wrong. Eye have run this poem threw it I am shore your pleased two no its letter; perfect awl the weigh my checker tolled me sew." I love it!!! Dan ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:42:16 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:42:16 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.30 (04) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Colin Wilson Subject: LL-L "Idiomatica" 2002.10.28 (13) [S] At 01:06 29/10/02, Reinhard/Ron wrote: >Dang! Whit A wis at wis "Hoo DIV ye say ..." It's ill tae mind fur >Sassenachs an Saxons. "Hoo dae ye say..." is awricht, as lang as ye're nae pittin the emphasis on "dae". Tae cairry emphasis it his tae be "div", itherwise "dae" or "div" can baith be yuised. Wi guidwull, Colin Wilson. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 15:44:13 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 07:44:13 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.30 (05) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: pieter meester Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] Dear all To complete the colour scheme I would like to add purple. Until recently we in the NL had a coalition of liberals and social democrats for two terms which we used to call Purple I and Purple II. After having the Christian democrats in the government "from the Romans on", the new coalition (1994) of left wing liberals, right wing liberals (blue)and social democrats (red) was called Purple. Met vriendelijke groeten Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 16:52:24 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:52:24 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Luc Hellinckx Subject: Lexicon Beste Sandy, Here goes my list (Brabantish): 1) "fart" : scheet, v??s, prot 2) "burp" : zo?e, verb = oproejen, opsma?tn 3) "tits" : t?tt(e)n, loez(e)n, m?mmen, ank 4) "balls" : kloe?t(e)n, ball(e)n 5) "piss" : piss(e)n, zeiken, stri?pen 6) "penis" : pi?(ke), spel, gemacht (=4+6), flo?t 7) "arse" : gat, j??s (in combinations), kont, ol, oos, prot Mind you, these are all the uncensored terms. If someone wants to behave more stylish he/she can use more polite (euphemistic or non-Brabantish) words. Kind greetings, Luc Hellinckx ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.29 (05) [E/S] Dear all, Sandy wrote: "This submission is about rude words, so don't read on if you don't like this sort of thing." Indeed. I remember getting into quite a lot of trouble because of this quite some time ago, and into even more bother when I vainly tried to point out that swearing formed an integral part of my language (in the sense that it had positional uses necessary to expressing certain emotions) and that it shouldn't be looked down upon. I think I lost the argument back then and I'd probably lose it again now, so the warning's there and other subscribers shouldn't affect offence now having read it. "I've been wondering about everyday words that many people consider to be rude, especially if, because of their status, they rarely appear in traditional literature." It's quite intriguing because in my language, the Long Eaton sub-dialect of Nottingham English, we only have the "non-polite" forms: we use the general English terms when we want to be polite. This is because my language has no status whatsoever beyond the home and community. Let's go. "F and C." Here in Derry (and when I was in Australia) I'm continually mocked for the /u/ in these words. My wife mimicks me but says the sound as [u:w] which it most certainly isn't. It's a very pursed-lip /u/ merging into a schwa sound (very difficult to describe) or perhaps an /o/ and I've not heard it anywhere but in the Midlands and North of England. My Derry friends mimick it as [O], the /o/ sound in English "cot". It was this difficult sound that kept making me think there was some Scandinavian connection to the phonology of Nottingham English. "Fart". Yep, fart is the same the world over, although in Cornwall fart is known but not used. The common term there in informal speech is to say someone has "shit themselves" e.g. "I just shit mysel an am stankin' [stinking].". This was a bit strange to a Nottingham English speaker, as it means soiling oneself accidentally. I never heard anyone in Western Australia say "fart": there was always a turn of phrase employed instead, e.g., "Who's dropped their lunchbox/guts?" "Burp." Same. Although again turn of phrase (probably brought about by taboo) is more likely to be employed, as in "I wo jus nilly sick in mi maaf." (I was just nearly sick in my mouth meaning a strong belch). Belch is about as likely to be heard as burp, if you'll pardon the pun. "Tits." I got the sense as a child that "tits" was a informal loanword perhaps brought about by service in the army. "Boobs" in the natural term to a Nottingham English speakers, and I've heard "dugs" on more than one occasion. "Balls." Always bollocks. Bollocks is used far more elastically than balls, too, e.g., "Uh you gunnuh kol thuh landlord uh baat this eatin?" "Am ah bollucks." (Are you going to call the landlord about this heating?" "Am I bollocks.") It's the most versatile word in my vocabulary after fuck and can be inserted almost anywhere. "Ah, bollucks" is what I would say for "OH shit.", with the emphasis on the "ah". If I narrowly averted getting hit by a car (which I have done on my occasions in this city), I'd say "OOH bollocks"... ooh [u:w:] seems the natural verbal expressant of shock/relief, whereas ah [ae:] is used for exasperation, stress, etc. A very inventive term I heard in Western Australia for testicles was "cluster". It cracked me up then and it's cracking me up now, because it's so clever. "Piss." Always piss, never pish. Used in the same way as Scots, although I would say, "Pissin *it* daan" (note the inclusion of "it"), "Rippin *thuh* piss". Penis "Willy" when you're younger, then afterwards "knob" and "cock". "Dick" seems to be imported. Arse. Same. And that's it. Bollucks tuh this! :) (Meaning I've other things I *have* to do now, not meaning in any way that I have not enjoyed writing this letter). Go raibh maith agaibh Cr?ost?ir. ---------- From: Elsie Zinsser Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.29 (05) [E/A] Haai all, Here are the Afrikaans equivalents of Sandy's list. Some might be my family specific: > "F" and "C" Words: /f/ is one of the few Afrikaans words starting with an /f/. I suspect it should be spelled with a /v/. [I only realized at age 42 that my parents knew the word too.] /c/ is spelled with a /k/. > "Fart" Formal: wind laat Casual: poep > "Burp" Formal: wind opbreek Younger people: E. "burp" We use "kraak" in my family. > "Tits" Formal: borste Rude: tiete > "Balls" Informal: Knaters, Formal: Testikels [My secondary school Biology handbook in the late 60's still had it as "teelballe"] > "Piss" Informal: pie {pronounce: pee}, piepie Formal: water laat Rude: pis Also: "sy pis alweer" - she's lacrymose again. "gepis" - drunk. > "Penis" - "Tossle" /tos=l/ Informal (not rude): tros, trossie, [tolleman is used in my family] > "Arse" Rude: gat, poepol, hol Acceptable: anus, agterwereld Incidentally "gatsak" is a back pocket, and quite acceptable. ("gat" means "hole" - in a roof, or in flooring) Regards, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Lexicon I wrote: > > "Penis" > > noun: Pint [p_hInt] (masc., pl. ___s) > Pieler(t) ['p_hi:l3`(t)] (masc., pl. __s) > Piedel ['p_hi:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) > Piehahn ~ Piehaan ['p_hi:hQ:n] (masc., pl. __s) > R: Pisser ['pIs3`] (masc., pl. __s) > R: D?del ['d9:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) > Pesel ['p_he:sl=] masc., pl. __s) [mostly of animals] Add to this lovely array the following: noun: Niller ['nIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) Diller ['dIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) Diddel ['dIdl=] (masc., pl. ___s) > > "Burp" > > verb: MP: upst?ten ['?Upst9Itn=] > MP: upbolken ['?UpbolkN=] > MP: upkolken ['?UpkolkN=] Also: MP: upb?lken ['?Upb9lkN=] MP: b?llern ['b9l3`n] What really interests me about words of this type is tabooization, replacement and their consequences. For instance, I have noticed that at least older Lowlands Saxon (Low German) speakers in Germany, or anyone feeling the need to sound more polite tends to use the more polite *German* equivalents or loan translations for such words to make them sound more "medical" or "clinical." To give you a classic example for what I called "tabooization" and "replacement" above I have to resort to a language that, although also Germanic, is outside the Lowlands area: Yiddish. As most Americans know, "shmock" is a swearword derived from Yiddish. Usually people call a person a "shmock," typically a male, and some people know that the original meaning is 'penis', and they use it for in that sense in some contexts, especially on the American east coast. What is interesting is that Yiddish _shmok_ or _shmuk_ seems to have really started out as a replacement for a tabooized word. (Thus, similar to "family jewels" for "testicles" in English.) The original meaning of Yiddish _shmok_ or _shmuk_ is 'jewelry', 'finery', 'decoration', obviously related to German _Schmuck_ (verb _schm?cken_ 'to decorate'), LS _Smuck_ (adj. _smuck_ 'pretty', verb _smuck maken_ 'to decorate', 'to embellish'), Danish _udsmykning_ (verb _smykke_, _udsmykke_), Swedish _smykke_ (verb _utsmycka_), perhaps also (Old English _smoc_ >) "smock" (a type of garment) and verbal "to smock" > "smocking" (a special type of decorative garment stitching). As far as I can tell, because of the replacement, Yiddish does not seem to use _shmok_ or _shmuk_ in the original sense anymore, though the derived noun _shmokler_ ~ _shmukler_ 'lacemaker' survives. The word for 'jewelry', 'finery', 'decoration' tends to be _cirung_ (cf. German _Zier_ 'prettiness', _Zierde_ 'embellishment', etc., LS _Tier_ 'prettiness', 'delicate or affectedly fine manner'). So it seems the taboo replacement word then became tabooized itself and also came to be used as a swerword. Perhaps you can come up with similar cases in Lowlands languages. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 16:57:53 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:57:53 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Resources" 2002.10.30 (07) [E/German] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn sassisch at yahoo.com Subject: Resources Dear Lowlanders, I have received the following appeal for help. If you wish to help, please write to Ms Mirzahanova (nadya_m1763 at yahoo.com) directly, unless you feel the information ought to be shared with all of us. Thanks. Reinhard/Ron === From: Nadine Mirzahanova Date: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:47 AM To: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org Re: Brief Sehr geehrte Lowlands! Ich schreibe zum ersten Mal und orientiere mich noch nicht gut in der Lowlandswelt. Ich habe zwei Fragen: 1.Wie ist es moeglich die noetigen Materialien aus offline-Seiten per online zu bekommen? 2. Ich interessiere mich fuer Probleme der Entwicklung der Zeitformenparadigma in der germanischen Sprachen und moechte die Fragen, die mit dem Preteritumschwund und umgekehrt mit Perfekt- nichtvorhandensein, besprechen. Wie ist das Thema zu starten? Vielen Dank, Mirzahanova Nadine ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 20:01:04 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:01:04 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.29 (03) D/[E] > From: Criostoir O Ciardha > Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (12) [E] > "The word "mucker" (with [V], at least the way I pronounce it) exists in (at > least some varieties) of English. Chambers gives "a best friend, mate, > sidekick" among its other definitions of _mucker_. Personally I have only > ever heard it used by Irish people on television (I am not familiar enough > with Ireland to know whether it is generally used there or not). I had > always assumed that it was a form found in Irish English, perhaps a loan > from Irish Gaelic." Muck n. dung, manure, wet or clinging filth etc. Muck v. to clear muck e.g in a cow shed, stable etc. Mucker n. a person who mucks, a fellow mucker with whom one is on good terms would affectionately be addressed as 'mucker', hense the modern usage for friend, mate etc. Old Norse myki, Danish m?g, Anglo-Saxon? (hlos) moc Andy Eagle ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Resources Andy: > Old Norse myki, Danish m?g, Anglo-Saxon? (hlos) moc What about Latin (> English) _mucus_ (root: _muc-_)? Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Wed Oct 30 20:12:17 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 12:12:17 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (09) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.29 (05) [E/S] > From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] > Subject: "Vocabulary" > > This submission is about rude words, so don't read on if you > don't like this sort of thing. > > I've been wondering about everyday words that many people > consider to be rude, especially if, because of their status, > they rarely appear in traditional literature. > > My contributions will be with respect to how this sort of > thing is said in my own dialect of Scots. The questions are: > > 1. Are the same words used in other dialects of Scots, or > are my own ones non-standard? > > 2. How are they said in other Lowlands languages? Are there > unexpected similarities? > > "F" and "C" Words: Same Here. A cam ower the 'C' wird clunge, A dinna ken it it micht juist be slang. >Fart > This is the same as in English, though of course pronounced > /fQ:r?/. I was surprised to find that in England and Wales > this isn't considered particularly rude, which makes sense > as it's a very necessary word. In my area of Scotland, however, > it would be more usual to substitute a euphemism. Fairt/Fert? > "Tits" > > In my area this is "dous" /du:z/, which, taken literally, > means "doves". However, "dou" in the singular is a term of > endearment for a woman, and not offensive at all, as used > in the drinking song "Toddlin Hame": Paps, The place name Paps O Jura. Mebbe no rude, juist colloquial. > "Penis" > > "Tossle" /tos=l/ seems to be the most usual way of saying > this in Scots: not as rude as some alternatives, yet not > as polite as some. It literally means "tassle", and "tossle" > is also used for tassles such as you see hanging from curtains > and so on. A child's penis is refered to as a "peep" /pip/ in > my dialect. Pintle, tadger Andy Eagle ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Dear all, Elsie wrote: "Also: "sy pis alweer" - she's lacrymose again. "gepis" - drunk." While "to be pissed" seems to enjoy general currency in every country with English except the United States*, in my language you never *just* say "pissed" to mean "drunk". You are "pisst aat yuh face" (pissed out [of] your face) or "bollucksed" or "aat y'red" (out [of] your head). Are there any continental Lowland languages that use this formation, i.e., "out of your face" to mean drunk? It's quite common in the Englishes of England. It's also quite a strange construction for English to use. Could it be borrowed from other Lowland languages? *Is it true that one way to tell a Canadian apart from someone from the US is that Canadians say "pissed" to mean "drunk" whereas USers only ever use the term to mean "angry" and don't understand it as "drunk" at all? Go raibh maith agaibh, Cr?ost?ir. ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon I wrote: > > > "Penis" > > > > noun: Pint [p_hInt] (masc., pl. ___s) > > Pieler(t) ['p_hi:l3`(t)] (masc., pl. __s) > > Piedel ['p_hi:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) > > Piehahn ~ Piehaan ['p_hi:hQ:n] (masc., pl. __s) > > R: Pisser ['pIs3`] (masc., pl. __s) > > R: D?del ['d9:dl=] (masc., pl. __s) > > Pesel ['p_he:sl=] masc., pl. __s) [mostly of animals] > > Add to this lovely array the following: > > noun: Niller ['nIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) > Diller ['dIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) > Diddel ['dIdl=] (masc., pl. ___s) And talking about or to children: noun: Piller ['p_hIl3`] (masc., pl. ___s) Pillermann ['p_hIl3`ma.n] (masc., pl. ___s) > The > original meaning of Yiddish _shmok_ or _shmuk_ is 'jewelry', 'finery', > 'decoration', obviously related to German _Schmuck_ (verb _schm?cken_ 'to > decorate'), LS _Smuck_ (adj. _smuck_ 'pretty', verb _smuck maken_ 'to > decorate', 'to embellish'), Danish _udsmykning_ (verb _smykke_, _udsmykke_), > Swedish _smykke_ (verb _utsmycka_), perhaps also (Old English _smoc_ >) > "smock" (a type of garment) and verbal "to smock" > "smocking" (a special > type of decorative garment stitching). As far as I can tell, because of the > replacement, Yiddish does not seem to use _shmok_ or _shmuk_ in the original > sense anymore, though the derived noun _shmokler_ ~ _shmukler_ 'lacemaker' > survives. The word for 'jewelry', 'finery', 'decoration' tends to be > _cirung_ (cf. German _Zier_ 'prettiness', _Zierde_ 'embellishment', etc., LS > _Tier_ 'prettiness', 'delicate or affectedly fine manner'). So it seems the > taboo replacement word then became tabooized itself and also came to be used > as a swerword. Perhaps you can come up with similar cases in Lowlands > languages. Well, an English example would be "cock," which at least in American English tends to be avoided and substituted with "rooster" in reference to a male bird, because the former had come to denote 'penis'. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 01:01:18 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:01:18 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (10) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Stan Levinson stlev99 at yahoo.com Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (09) [E] As an American, I didn't even know 'pissed' meant joke until reading Australian and English lit. Until this email from Criostoir, I didn't know it was used in Canada in that sense! Thanks. Stan > From: Criostoir O Ciardha > Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] > *Is it true that one way to tell a Canadian apart > from someone from the US > is that Canadians say "pissed" to mean "drunk" > whereas USers only ever use > the term to mean "angry" and don't understand it as > "drunk" at all? > > Go raibh maith agaibh, > > Cr?ost?ir. ---------- From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Dear all, At 12:12 PM 10/30/02 -0800, you wrote: *Is it true that one way to tell a Canadian apart from someone from the US is that Canadians say "pissed" to mean "drunk" whereas USers only ever use the term to mean "angry" and don't understand it as "drunk" at all? I wasn't aware of that. However, both uses are quite current in Ontario. One distinguishes the difference with a postposition, e.g. "He was piss'd right o-ut of his f..kin mind." and "She was piss'd right off at him." One might also say, "He was royally piss'd", in which case one would have to seek further context for the meaning. BTW, when one says "Canadian" in a linguistic sense, we are referring to a basic linguistic heritage which is not shared by the Province of Newfoundland, which is much more related to southern Appalachian than the Mid-Atlantic speech pattern that the rest of English speaking Canadians adopted from the refugees of the First Anglo-American War. One must also keep in mind that Canada is some 4,000+ miles across, and there are some minor regional vocabulary and speech differences. Ed Alexander ---------- From: Criostoir O Ciardha Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (09) [E] Ron wrote: "Well, an English example would be "cock," which at least in American English tends to be avoided and substituted with "rooster" in reference to a male bird, because the former had come to denote 'penis'." As far as I know most definitely just in American English, as the bird of the name in most of the Englishes of England (especially mine) is a "cockerel", *never ever* a cock - "cock" is specifically and exclusively part of the male anatomy. I once heard tell of "cock" (i.e., penis) deriving from the name of a part of a ship back in the days when conscription into the British navy was a daily hazard (around 1815), although given how these conversations come about (usually in pubs and the like), I was probably drunk at the time and the information can't be relied upon... Any Lowlanders out there know anything about ships? Go raibh maith agaibh, Criostoir. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 01:04:46 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:04:46 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.30 (11) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: erek gass Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.30 (05) [E] Sounds colourful. Did such odd grouping get anything done? >From: pieter meester >Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.25 (05) [E] > >Dear all >To complete the colour scheme I would like to add purple. Until recently we >in the NL had a coalition of liberals and social democrats for two terms >which we used to call Purple I and Purple II. After having the Christian >democrats in the government "from the Romans on", the new coalition (1994) >of left wing liberals, right wing liberals (blue)and social democrats (red) >was called Purple. >Met vriendelijke groeten >Pieter Meester ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 01:19:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 17:19:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.10.30 (12) [E/S/LS] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (12) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Andy (Scots-Online) andy at scots-online.org Subject: Halloween Since halloween is upon us I thought fellow Lowlanders might enjoy Robert Fergusson's poem (1750 - 74) The Version below is edited using a more 'modern' orthography and has had the grammar Scottified. The Original version follows. Hallae-Fair At Hallaemas, whan nichts growes lang, An starnies shines fou clear, Whan fowk, the nippin cauld tae bang, Thair winter hap-wairms weirs, Naur Edinburgh a fair thare hauds, A wat thare's nane that's name is, For strappin dames an sturdy lads, An caup an stoup, mair famous Than it that day. Upo the tap o ilka lum The sun begoud tae keek, An bad the trig made maidens come A sichtly jo tae seek At Hallae-fair, whaur brewsters rare Keeps guid ale on the gantries, An dinna scrimp ye o a skair O kebbucks frae thair pantries, Fou saut that day. Here kintra John in bunnet blue, An eik his Sunday claes on, Rins efter Meg wi rokelay new, An sappie kisses lays on; She'll tauntin say, ye silly cuif! Be o your gab mair spairin; He'll tak the hint, an creash her luif Wi whit will buy her fairin, Tae chowe that day. Here chapman billies taks thair staund, An shaws thair bonnie wallies; Wow, but thay lie fou gleg aff haund Tae trick the silly fallaes: Heh, Sirs! whit cairds an tinklers comes, An ne'er-dae-weel horse-cowpers, An spae-wifes fenyiein tae be dumm, Wi aw siclike landlowpers, Tae thrive that day. Here Sawny cries, frae Aiberdeen; 'Come ye tae me 'at needs: The brawest shanks that e'er war seen A'll sell ye cheap an gweed. A wyte thay are as protty hose As comes fae weyr or leem: Here tak a rug, an shaw's your pose: Forseeth, ma ain's but teem An licht this day.' Ye wifes, as ye gangs throu the fair, mak your bargains huilie! O aw thir wylie louns bewaur, Or fegs thay will ye spulyie. For fernyear Meg Thamson gat, Frae thir mischievous villains, A scawt bit o a penny note, That lost a score o shillins Tae her that day. The dinlin drums alairms oor ears, The sergeant screichs fou lood, 'Aw gentlemen an volunteers That wiss your kintra guid, Come here tae me, an A shall gie Twa guineas an a croun, A bowl o punch, that like the sea Will soum a lang dragoon Wi ease this day.' Athoot the cuissers prance an nicker, An ower the ley-rig scud; In tents the carles bends the bicker, An rants an rairs like wud. Than thare's sic yallochin an din, Wi wifes an weans gablin, That ane micht trowe thay war a-kin Tae aw the tongues at Babylon, Confuised that day. Whan Phoebus ligs in Thetis laup, Auld Reekie gies thaim shelter, Whaur cadgily thay kiss the caup, An caw't roond helter-skelter. Jock Bell gaed furth tae play his freaks, Great cause he haed tae rue it, For frae a stark Lochaber aix He gat a clamihewit Fou sair that nicht. 'Ohon!' quo he, 'A'd raither be Bi swuird or bagnet stickit, Than hae ma croun or bodie wi Sic deidlie wappins nickit.' Wi that he gat anither straik Mair wechty than afore, That gart his feckless bodie ache, An spew the reekin gore, Fou reid that nicht. He pechin on the causey lay, O kicks an cuffs weel sert; A Hieland aith the sergeant gae, 'She maun pe see oor gaird.' Oot spak the warlike corporal, 'Pring in ta drunken groat, For that neist day. Guid fowks, as ye comes frae the fair, Bide yont frae this black squad; Thare's nae sic savages elsewhaur Alloud tae weir cockaud. Than the strang lions's hungry maw, Or tusk o' Roussaen beir, Frae thair wanruly fellin paw Mair cause ye hae tae fear Your daith that day. A wee soop drink dis unco weel Tae haud the hert abuin; It's guid as lang's a cannie chiel Can staund steeve in his shuin. But gin a birkie's ower weel sert, It gars him aften stammer Tae ploys that brings him tae the gaird, An eik the Cooncil-chaumer, Wi shame that day. ______ Some Comments: Robert Fergusson was Born and lived in Edinburgh but his parents came from Aberdeen. He was obviously acquaint with Aberdeen speech. Robert Burns called him "my elder brother in misfortune, by far my elder brother in the muse". In Verse 5 Sawny (Sandy) from Aberdeen is quoted in dialogue gweed = guid (good) weyr or leem = weir/wire or luim (loom) teem = tuim (empty) The above simply show the North-East rendering /i/ of the vowel. 'at needs = that needs, Interestingly the original (below) has 'fa need' = wha need (who need) The Scots idiom is of course 'that needs'. In North-East Scots this is rendered 'at. I have my suspicions that this infact may be a different word than 'that' but serving the same function. 'The 'at used in the North-East may be from Old Norse '?t' whereas the 'that' used further south is from Anglo-Saxon '??t'. 'That' is of course often ellided to 'at in connected speech. but in the North-East, in traditional varieties, ''at' is always used in place of 'that'. Can anybody shed some light on this suspicion? Verse 11 The Highland soldiers: 'She maun pe see oor gaird.' pe = be 'Pring in ta drunken groat,' Pring = Bring, ta = the showing the Gaelic phonology of the Highlanders speaking Scots. This kind of thing often appeared in Scots literature of the time. More about Gaelic influenced Scots at http://www.scots-online.org/grammar/gaelic.htm The Original version: Hallow-Fair At Hallowmas, whan nights grow lang, And starnies shine fu' clear, Whan fock, the nippin cauld to bang, Their winter hap-warms wear, Near Edinbrough a fair there hads, I wat there's nane whase name is, For strappin dames an sturdy lads, And cap and stoup, mair famous Than it that day. Upo' the tap o' ilka lum The sun bagan to keek, And bad the trig made maidens come A sightly joe to seek At Hallow-fair, whare browsters rare Keep gude ale on the gantries, And dinna scrimp ye o' a skair O' kebbucks frae their pantries, Fu' saut that day. Here country John in bonnet blue, An' eke his Sunday claise on, Rins efter Meg wi' rokelay new, An' sappy kisses lays on; She'll tauntin say, ye silly coof! Be o' your gab mair spairin; He'll tak the hint, and criesh her loof Wi' what will buy her fairin, To chow that day. Here chapman billies tak their stand, An' shaw their bonny wallies; Wow, but they lie fu' gleg aff hand To trick the silly fallows: Heh, Sirs! what cairds and tinklers come, An' ne'er-do-weel horse-coupers, An' spae-wives fenzying to be dumb, Wi' a' siclike landloupers, To thrive that day. Here Sawny cries, frae Aberdeen; 'Come ye to me fa need: The brawest shanks that e'er were seen I'll sell ye cheap an' guid. I wyt they are as protty hose As come fae weyr or leem: Here tak a rug, and shaw's your pose: Forseeth, my ain's but teem An' light this day.' Ye wives, as ye gang thro' the fair, mak your bargains hooly! O' a' thir wylie lowns beware, Or fegs they will ye spulzie. For fairn-year Meg Thamson got, Frae thir mischievous villains, A scaw'd bit o' a penny note, That lost a score o' shillins To her that day. The dinlin drums alarm our ears, The serjeant screechs fu' loud, 'A' gentlemen and volunteers That wish your country gude, Come here to me, and I shall gie Twa guineas and a crown, A bowl o' punch, that like the sea Will soum a lang dragoon Wi' ease this day.' Without the cuissers prance and nicker, An' our the ley-rig scud; In tents the carles bend the bicker, An' rant an' roar like wud. Then there's sic yellowchin and din, Wi' wives and wee-anes gablin, That ane might true they were a-kin To a' the tongues at Babylon, Confus'd that day. Whan Phoebus ligs in Thetis lap, Auld Reekie gies them shelter, Whare cadgily they kiss the cap, An' ca't round helter-skelter. Jock Bell gaed furth to play his freaks, Great cause he had to rue it, For frae a stark Lochaber aix He gat a clamihewit Fu' sair that night. 'Ohon!' quo' he, 'I'd rather be By sword or bagnet stickit, Than hae my crown or body wi' Sic deadly weapons nicket.' Wi' that he gat anither straik Mair weighty than before, That gar'd his feckless body aik, An' spew the reikin gore, Fu' red that night. He pechin on the cawsey lay, O' kicks and cuffs weel sair'd; A Highland aith the serjeant gae, 'She maun pe see our guard.' Out spak the weirlike corporal, 'Pring in ta drunken groat, For that neist day. Good focks, as ye come frae the fair, Bide yont frae this black squad; There's nae sic savages elsewhere Allow'd to wear cockade. Than the strong lions's hungry maw, Or tusk o' Russian bear, Frae their wanruly fellin paw Mair cause ye hae to fear Your death that day. A wee soup drink dis unco weel To had the heart aboon; It's good as lang's a canny chiel Can stand steeve in his shoon. But gin a birkie 's owr weel sair'd, It gars him aften stammer To pleys taht bring him to the guard, An' eke the Council-chawmir, Wi' shame that day. ___ Guid guising an galoshin oot alang the causey but dinna lat the ghaists an bogles fleg ye. An whan dookin for aiples - dinna droun or clart yersels fae the traicle anes hingin doun! Andy ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Literature Dear Lowlanders, And below once again, for good measure to further enhance your Halloween, Klaus Groth's Lowlands Saxon (Low German) poem with my English translation (http://www.geocities.com/grothwarken/). Regards, Reinhard/Ron === DAT GRULI HUS vun Klaus Groth Dat s?ht bi Dag' so fr?ndli ut mit Doer un Finstern gel, Des Nachts is dat en gruli Hus, denn slarrt dat langs de Del. Dat slarrt op T?ffeln, Schritt voer Schritt, dat slarrt de hin un her, Doch wenn de Dag des Morgens graut, so h?rt man dat ni mehr. Dats j?s, as gung en ole Fru, un s?ch de ganze Nach, Un kunn ni finn' un s?ch un s?ch bet an den hellen Dag. Dat kumt des Abends ut de Stuv un wannert langs de Del, Un f?hlt herum bi jede Doer, as wenn de Sloetel fehl. Dat fun?elt an de Koekendoer, dat kloetert an den Rink, Dat kraut un grabbelt an de Bred un r?hrt an Sl?tt un Klink. Denn slurrt dat wieder an de Wand un raschelt in den Gank, Denn pett dat langs de Trepp toh?ch un trufft de Boen hentlank. Dar trufft dat langsam hin un her un w?hlt in T?rf un Kaff, Denn pett dat wedder na de Luk un kumt de Trepp heraf. De Saaldoer hett en isen Ked, dar ritt dat ganze Stunn': Doch wenn de Hahn des Morgens kreiht, ist jedesmal verswunn'. === THE EERIE HOUSE by Klaus Groth Translation: R. F. Hahn ?2002 It looks so welcoming by day with yellow frames and doors. But it's an eerie house by night. There's shuffling across floors. There're slippers shuffling, step by step. There's shuffling on and on. But with the new day's morning light those shuffling sounds are gone. It sounds like an old woman's walk in search throughout the night. It seeks and seeks but cannot find until the day's first light. At nightfall it moves from the lounge, comes crawling gingerly And gropes about outside each door as though it lacked the key. It fiddles with the kitchen door, it rattles and it knocks, It claws and fumbles at the boards and touches knobs and locks. Then it slides on along the wall -- swish! - down the hall some more. Then it goes climbing up the stairs onto the attic floor. Up there it slowly stomps about and rummages and tears. Then it steps back toward the hatch and comes back down the stairs. The lounge door's heavy iron chain keeps rattling, on and on. But when at dawn the rooster crows the whole thing's simply gone. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 06:03:42 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:03:42 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.30 (13) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (13) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] >Hi friends ( I hope) Thanks to Gary for his PC police constable. The overlap with politically correct is doubtful - but not impossible - particularly if the retired British PC (Police Constable) is also a black Tory (in the Afro-Canadian sense.) Of course this would make him simultaneously a red and black Tory (my Jamaican born doctor fits this combo as well). It all goes to show that in the interests of linguistic diversity it is helpful to have friends of all political stripes! Thanks for the answer on Jacob/James! not to mention Diego! As to my Plantagenet loyalty, I should clarify that this applies only to England and the Commonwealth - of course the House of Stuart - now represented by the Wittelsbach heir of Bavaria (ironically) is the legitimate royal House of Scotland - the perfidious "Act of Union" between the crowns of England and Scotland having been obtained by bribery - and hence void. My allegiance to the Plantagents is not philosophical but genealogical. For example I have never forgiven the Tudors for beheading my ancestor Ursula Pole. But speaking of the Tudor propagandist par excellence, William Shakespeare, I once read that he intended clearly for his characters to speak in their own local dialects and not in the sort of contrived "Shakespearean stage English" we are all familiar with today. Apparently there is strong evidence that his selection of words for certain characters - ( I remember reference to Hotspur and the Northumbrian uvular "r") to emphasize the peculiarities of their regional speech. I have never heard a Scottish sounding MacBeth let alone (little own?) a Gaelic accented one. Any thoughts or experience of dialect in Shakespeare? ps Saint Jacobs Ontario where my maternal grandfather was born is still so German many people jokingly refer to it as Yakobstrudel (a take off on "Jacob's stettel.) Alle die beste George ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 06:15:08 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:15:08 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (14) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (14) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.28 (08) [D/E] At 04:02 PM 10/28/02 -0800, Colin wrote: Not to mention English/Scots "blank", and French "blanc(he)" with numerous cognates in the Romance languages. So that's the origin of "black" - it really means "white"! Is this shift analogous to the shift that occurs in good > better (badder) > best (baddest)? I understand that German got _Familie_ from Latin _familia_ rather than from French _familie_, hence the final schwa vowel developed from _a_. That would have been my understanding. I've always been intrigued by the retention of Latin case endings in HG with the use of the name Jesus Christ, at least until more modern times, e.g. "Paulus, ein Knecht Jesu Christi, berufen zum Apostel, ausgesondert zu predigen das Evangelium Gottes" (R?mer 1:1)(Luthers ?bersetzung). Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology Dear Lawlanders, A wis readin wir Colin's braw beuk (Luath Scots Learner) agane the noo whan A fund a Scots wird at stertet anither braith i ma kinna forfochen heid: "dreich" [drix] (~ _dree_ [dri:] = English _dreary_, _long-lasting_, _tiresome_, _hard to bear_). At's tae a shavin lik the Lawlands Saxon (Laich German) wird _dr??g'_ [dr9:.j] ~ _dr??g_ [dr9:C] (< _dr?ge_ ['dr9:ge]) at bears 'dry' an aw. (Fer example a lang lecter can be "dry" an dreich.) A lippent at the Scots wird fer _dry_ wuid be "dreich" an aw, bit it's "dry"! A'm ferlie cause the Auld English has _dry^ge_ ['dry:j@] fer 'dry', an A wis expeckin sumhin lik *_dreich_, *_dreech_ or *_dree_ fer it in Scots, sumhin wioot a diphthong an mibbie ennin wi a fricative. Whit dae ye think, fowk? Cuid "dreich" be the oreeginal Scots wird fer "dry" an aw, an cuid "dry" be an English lenwird? Or cuid "dreich" een be a Lawlands Saxon lenwird? Guidwill till ye aw (an A apologees maistlie till wir dear Scottish freends fer thrapplin their bonnie leid). Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 06:21:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:21:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "History" 2002.10.30 (15) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (15) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Ed Alexander Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (10) [E] At 05:01 PM 10/30/02 -0800, Cr?ost?ir wrote: >in the days when conscription into >the British navy was a daily hazard (around 1815), Actually, in 1815 the problem had disappeared with the end of the Napoleonic Wars. The conscription or "impressment" of American sailors into the British navy on the high seas was "necessitated" by the grievous need for sailors in a nation fighting for its life against Napoleon and trying to pretty much blockade the Continent and inhibit trade with France anyway it could. In retaliation for this and some other similar grievances, the Americans declared war on Britain and attempted to seize British North America (Canada), which they thought would be a lot cheaper than trying to invade Britain or build a navy large and powerful enough to challenge the British on the open seas. ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 06:29:11 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 22:29:11 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Administrativa" 2002.10.30 (16) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 30.OCT.2002 (16) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Administrativa Folks, We have been experiencing some sporadic server problems today, both in email and on the web, perhaps having started yesterday already. I have had to resort to alternative means of sending out some of today's issues. As a result of intermittent delivery problems, some of your posting submissions have been arriving in fits and starts, and some of them took a long time to arrive. Should you wonder why any of your submissions did not appear, it could well be that I did not receive them. In that case, please resubmit them. Thanks you all for your patience and understanding until this problem has been resolved. Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 16:12:23 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:12:23 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (01) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.30 (01) [E] Thomas Byro wrote: > I would suspect that the turning point for the Dutch spoken by the Jackson > Whites came with WW II. At least, this seems to have marked the turning > point for many other linguistic islands in the USA. I used to own a house > on a mountaintop in the Catskills and several of my neighbors who were born > just before or after WW II told me that Dutch was spoken in their homes as a > daily language when they were growing up. German too. The area supported a > local German newspaper that lasted until the 1960's. Thanks again for the information, Tom! Details like this (Dutch being spoken as a home language in the Catskills untill WWII) are very important for learning more about language survival. Most popular as well as scientific linguistic literature about the Dutch language abroad state that Dutch as spoken by the early settlers in NJ and NY died out around 1900 with a few possible last second language speakers that died in the 1930s. That's why all this information about the Jackson Whites, Dutch being spoken in the Catskills untill at least 1945 and Robert Bowman's grandmother who spoke Dutch and died around 1953 is so interesting. One should in this respect make a strict distinction between the Dutch spoken by decendants of the earliest settlers (1620-1700) and the Dutch spoken by more recent immigrants (from 1840 and on). The Dutch spoken by the earlier settlers developed almost completely independent from the Standard Dutch language (apart from Dutch ministers that were schooled in Holland and sent out to Dutch Reformed Churches in NJ/NY). In a way, this situation can be compared with the way Afrikaans developed from the Dutch spoken by 17th century settlers. The Dutch culture in NY and NJ was apparently strong enough to sustain for more then 300 years after the English took over the Dutch colony of New Netherland. The Dutch of more recent immigrants didn't have time to develop; like most immigrants languages Dutch died out amongst the decendants of these more recent immigrants in about three generations. Among the latter, one can hardly suspect to find some 'forgotten' last speakers, because the language has no or little cultural and historical value to the speakers. In the case of the earlier colonists, the language for a long time stood for their culture and background. Linguistst once believed that the Dutch/Zeelandic creole language of the US Virgin Islands had died out around the 1940s. But the last first language speaker only died in the 1990s and there are a few quite competent second language speakers left even today. The reason that the language survived on an island where English and English based creole have been the majority languages for about 200 years now, is that people took their culture seriously. English speaking islanders still talk very positively and with great melancholy about the 'old creole' (_ow creol_). I wouldn't be surprised if a few second language speakers of Jersey Dutch turn up in the end. Apart from that rather romantic look on things, it is also very important linguistically to learn more about the conditions under which languages are able to sur- vive longer then anyone would expect. So Tom and others, every single detail about this subject would be very much appreciated. Thanks! Marco ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Marco, Lowlanders, Dutch as an immigrant language is still used in the very north here in Washington State (the northwesternmost of the USA), at the border with British Columbia, also north of the border. The center is Lyndon on the US side, a bit northeast of Bellingham, stretching all the way up to the Canadian border. I have heard it spoken myself by locals in the streets and shops of the town. It is supposed to be also spoken in the surrounding farming country (which is also a center for horseback riding enthusiasts). I have been told that Lowlands Saxon (of the Eastern Netherlands) and Westerlauwer Frisian are spoken there as well. Judging by the names of farms and companies, the presence of people of Frisian descent must be pretty strong. I would not be all that surprised to find out that Zeelandic is spoken there as well. I would love to find out more about it, but people who are from that area have told me that it tends to be rather difficult for outsiders to make social contacts there, anything beyond the tulips-and-windmill tourist thing. (They do serve good pannekoeken there and in parts of British Columbia.) Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 16:17:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 08:17:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.31 (02) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (04) [S] Sandy wrate: > >Nouadays I aye uizes automatic transliteration tools tae >prepare the texts on ScotsteXt for uploadin. > >This means that whan A come across spellins A dinna richt >unnerstaun, A canna git past them wi a wee bit internal >bletherie ony mair! > >As weel, the orthographic considerations for electronic >texts can be a bit different in their ettle nor texts for >fowk haein read at. In parteeclar: > > o bein technically (or historically) richt is like > tae be mair important than the text leukin familiar > (wi hou the wirds can be translatit intae mair > familiar spellins automatic); > > o it's better if a spellin can staun as a unique > signifier for a wird (sae's the transliteration > saftware disna git fanklt ower the likes o > ("wood") an ("mad"), for example, it wad be > better tae wale for "wood" - if the > spellin wis nott at the last, the transliterator > could haunle it). >Onywey, ae parteeclar area o spellin A'm no shuir aboot is >auxiliaries, espaecially the conditionals written in English >, an , an as weel, . > >The questions is: > > o A tak it that the best wey tae spell an > is wi the saicondary vowel, ie an > ? I gree wi Andy here - the regional variants disna shaw the UI diaphoneme. I wad gang wi 'coud' an 'shoud' - again the whaur the war - the fact at the is thare in English tae disna maiter. > > o Ar the ony kin o differ wirth preservin atween the > forms an an an in > traditional texts, or wad A be as weel tae settle > on the tae kin o sibilant an lat the transliterator > owerset tae the tither gin it's wantit? Again I gree wi Andy, at the'r nae differ apairt frae the pronunciation. The pronuncins 'sood' an 'sall' is fameeliar ti me frae Shetlandic, likely the aulder wey. I wad haud wi the writer's practics. > > o What alternative spellins ar the for , that > wad sinder it fae meanin "mairy"? The SND > suggests - appearinly the /l/ is or wis > soondit in some airts, but A div still want the > electronic texts tae be in weel-kent Scots for whan > a transliterator's no tae haun. A dout micht > no be a guid representation o the uizual range o > pronunciations ootthrou the Lawlands? Thare is a conflict here atween sinderin ilka wird frae ither (like ye hae ti dae for yer foond-text) an sinderin homographs in onie actual text for readin - whaur, alang wi Andy, I wad threip at this is no necessar. Coorse I suppose the logical spellin o auld _wald_ wad be _waud_, follaein the common orthographic practice o writin 'u' for vocalised 'l' - sae _haud_ frae _hald_, _saut_ frae _salt_, etc. Thare's nae muckle precedent for this in writin this word, I dinna think, but ye coud uise it (or for that maiter) as yer oreeginal spellin, juist for the sake o the transliterator, coud ye? I dinna think ye can get onie ither kenspeckle spellin wi'oot a homograph wi aither 'wad', 'wid' or 'wud'. (I pronunce it [wId], but I write it ). At onie rate, I 'waudna' follae whit a lot o Scots writers dis, an spell 'wid' (Eng. wood) as , cause that raivels the diaphonemics. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ---------- From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (10) [S] Sandy wrate: >A startit the mail in English an syne efter typin twathree >wirds decidit tae write it in Scots insteed - A maun a forgotten >tae chainge the English "I" intae a Scots "A" in the first sentence! Nou hing on a meenutie! Ye canna say at 'I' is English an 'A' is Scots - baith pronunciations exists in sindrie dialects (whiles wi a emphatic/unemphatic sinderin) an the chyce o or is mair or less a bawbee-flingin maiter. Coorse, I ken ye'r spaekin aboot yer ain practics here - hou ye sinder the English an Scots in spellin. >Hivin sayed aa this, baith ma spellins an Colin's is aa fanklt >wi English orthographic 'principles', an sae ye can haurly expeck >conseestency onywey! A ken fine nouadays hou tae heyst masel oot >this historic boggie, but A'v got it on guid authority that naebody >wad want tae read ma Scots if A did! This is no necessarily true. Ye coud mak up a consistent spellin for Scots foondit on English orthography - for example, consonant-dooblin rules - as lang as ye war willin ti re-spell aa the English words at disna conform ti thae rules - like _door_ -> , _tongue_ -> , etc. Forby, pairt o the raivelment o English spellin comes frae the fact at the'r mair nor ae kynd o spellin in uiss - ane for words o Auld English origin (did we decide at 'springheid' wisna a richt word?), an anither - wi different consonant dooblin rules, for example - for Latinate an Greek words (no ti mention the French an ither anes, like 'touch'). Sae ye'v ti recognise thaim as sindrie systems - an morphological spellins the likes o '-na' an '-fu' as anither. I whiles wonder whit Scots spellin wad be like gin it wis spelt efter the spellin rules o the Latin an Greek loanwords - wi nae, or little, consonant dooblin, for example. I ken ye'v cleckit sic a system yersel afore nou, but wad it be different gin the ettle wis ti haud the Latinate an Greek word i the same system? Wad it be possible? Haith - I'v likely stertit ye aff again....! Here's a phoneme leet, wi my ain spellin practics (foondit on the Spellin Comatee anes). This is a maistly non-technical ASCII version, uisin capitals for spellins insteid o bold or (if that's whit ye caa thaim) an maistly invertit commas for roch pronunciations. Cause this wis written for Scots, the pronunciation guide is foondit on SSE - Scottish Standard English. I hinna pitten in onie phonetics as sic, except for ti shaw the differin pronunciations o the /ai/ diphthong. The phoneme script is foondit on SAMPA, an is no ettelt ti be phonetically accurate. In the /e-/ an /e+/ phonemes, the /-/ an /+/ is ti shaw at, in sindrie dialects, /e+/ tends ti rise ti [i] (eg: _breid_ can be [bred] or [brid]) an /e-/ ti faa ti [E] (_bairn_ can be [be:rn] or [bE:rn]) Merk at the examples gien includes English cognate words, whan thay'r spelt efter the same rules I uise for Scots as a hale. John M. Tait. Pronunciation and Spelling of Scots Vowel Phonemes. / / - Underlying phonemes (of Scots seen as a whole) [ ] - Broad phonetic approximations /a/ - Pronounced as in SSE cat. Spelt A, as in slap, grat, tag /A/ - as in SSE caught, or in some dialects as a longer form of the A in SSE cat. Spellings: AU usually initial and medial - aumrie, auld, fauld, faur, waur AW final - craw, braw - and initial and medial in some words, e.g. awfu, bawd, bawbee, bawsant AA where English and older Scots have final -ALL, e.g. baa, faa, aa, aabodie A final in na, wha, twa, awa and ava. /E/ - as in SSE let Spelt E, e.g. hert, gless, teckle (Note: there is considerable dialect variation between /e-/ and /E/). /e-/ - as in SSE hair Spellings: AI initial and medial e.g. airt, airm, sair, mair AE final, e.g. brae, strae /e+/ - Pronounced in some dialects as 'ee' in SSE seen, in others as 'ai' in SSE hair. Spellings: EI e.g. heid, breid, deid (usually where EA in the English cognate is pronounced 'e') AE or EA, e.g. maet, aets, baet (usually where EA in the English cognate is pronounced 'ee') /e/ - as SSE gate, with some dialect variation (such as NE 'steen', stane, and 'wyle', wale). Spelt A-E, e.g. hame, stane, wale. /I/ - Pronounced as in SSE sin; but in some dialects often as 'u' in SSE sun. Spelt I - e.g. sin, wind, hill /i/ - Pronounced as in SSE seen . Spellings: EE - e.g. neep, greet, reek, eediom, speerit IE typically before CH, R, V, L(D) and ST - e.g. driech, spier, scrieve, bield, chiel, niest. /O/ - Pronounced in some dialects as in SSE got, in others as 'oa' in SSE goat Spelt O - e.g. on, got, shop, lot, loch /o/ - Pronounced as in SSE goat Spellings: OA - e.g. coat, throat, gloaming O-E - e.g. thole, hole /V/ - Pronounced as in SSE cut Spelt U - e.g cut, but, gun. /u/ - Pronounced as in SSE moon (in some dialects approaching the sound of German ?) Spellings: OU - e.g. doun, fouth, fou, hou OO where the English cognate has OU pronounced 'ow', e.g. hoose, moose, oot, oor. /y/ - Pronounciations as follows: 1. Like German ? or ? in some conservative dialects - e.g. 'sp?n', 'p?r', '?z'. 2. 'ee' in the North East - e.g. 'speen', 'fleer', 'eeze' 3. 'ai' (long) and 'i' (short) in most Central dialects - e.g. 'spin', 'pair', 'yaize'. Spelling: UI, e.g. spuin, fluir, uise (Note that UI words usually have an 'oo' sound in the English cognate - e.g. spoon, poor, use). /ju/ (original /y/ + velar) - Pronounced as EW in SSE few, but in some dialects as U in SSE luck. Spelt EU - e.g. heuk, neuk, teuk, leuk, leuch, eneuch (Because of the different pronunciation distribution, the EU spelling is preferable to UI before K and CH.) /ai/- as in SSE bite, five ( [b at It], [faiv] - determined by Scots Vowel Length Rule). Spellings: I-E or Y-E according to precedent in most identical English cognates, e.g. bike, sine (trigonometric), ripe, bite, line, hide, (mega)byte, hype, five, rise, tired, tyre, byre. Y-E (Y before consonant clusters) in most words without obvious or identical cognates in modern standard English, and for words corresponding to English OI, e.g. byke, syne, rype, gype, synd, hyne, kythe, kye, jyne, byle Y before consonant clusters even in identical English cognates, e.g. mynd, kynd. (?) EY finally for the short sound only - e.g. gey, fey, stey /ou/ - as in SSE how Spelt OW medial, OWE final - nowt, growe http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 19:28:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 11:28:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (06) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (06) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Marco Evenhuis Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (01) [E] Ron wrote: > Dutch as an immigrant language is still used in the very north here in > Washington State (the northwesternmost of the USA), at the border with > British Columbia, also north of the border. The center is Lyndon on the US > side, a bit northeast of Bellingham, stretching all the way up to the > Canadian border. I have heard it spoken myself by locals in the streets and > shops of the town. It is supposed to be also spoken in the surrounding > farming country (which is also a center for horseback riding enthusiasts). > I have been told that Lowlands Saxon (of the Eastern Netherlands) and > Westerlauwer Frisian are spoken there as well. That's great to hear. Lynden is one of the few places with a largely Dutch population that I did not know of yet. The fact that Dutch is still spoken there sets it apart from a lot of other Dutch American communities. Dutch as an immigrant language is as far as I know only still spoken in Pella (Iowa), Zeeland & Holland (Michigan), the Amsterdam-Churchill area (Montana) and Prinsburg (Minnesota). The latter being the town with the highest percentage of Dutch descended people in the US census of 2000: about 75%. Zeelandic is still spoken in the vicinity of Zeeland (Michigan) and a few places in county Wayne (NY) (Marion, Arcadia, Williamson...). The latter being probably the only few villages were Zeelanders form the biggest "ethnic" group in the USA. But bear in mind that we're talking about relatively recent immigrants and their language here. Most of the towns I mentioned above, were founded between about 1840 and 1910. Older people and newcomers may still speak the language, but the lifecycle of the language will probably follow the usual pattern of dying out within three or four generations. The Jersey Dutch language variety that we discussed earlier on this list, is something completely different. It derived from the Dutch spoken by the very first colonists in New York and New Jersey around 1630. So it has a history of some 300 years and it developed completely independently from Dutch as a separate language variety. I think you can to some extend com- pare it with Pennsylvania Dutch , a language that de- veloped from the High German dialects of the Pfalz area and has been spoken in the USA for about 300 years now. Regards, Marco ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Thanks for spelling the name of the place correctly as "Lynden," Marco. I always misspell it for some reason, probably because of the men's name Lyndon. (http://www.ehpweb.com/lynden/main.htm) I have long been under the impression that language loyalty among Dutch and other North European immigrants is generally weak. When I was living in Western Australia, there were many Indonesian-born "Dutch" people there. I knew several couples in which both partners had Dutch as their primary language. They did not teach their children and grandchildren Dutch (at least not enough to make them competent speakers), and in one of the couples the partners even spoke English with each other most of the time. Here in the US I know a Belgian couple. He is from Brussels, and she is from Antwerp. Both of them have Dutch as their primary lamguage and use it with each other in relative privacy. They have never made an attempt to teach their daughter Dutch, so that the girl's grandparents have to talk English with her when they visit here or she visits them in Belgium. Recently the girl expressed an interest in learning a second foreign language (after French). I pointed out Dutch study resources, but they steered their daughter in the direction of German, saying that "Dutch is useless." Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 22:27:34 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 14:27:34 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (07) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut Subject: language survival Hello, Marco wrote: That's great to hear. Lynden is one of the few places with a largely Dutch population that I did not know of yet. The fact that Dutch is still spoken there sets it apart from a lot of other Dutch American communities. I was just in Lynden in June and was hard pressed to find anyone who spoke Dutch. The people I did speak to only knew a very little or told me that a relative spoke it. It seems to be dying out quickly there. On the other hand, when I was in Solvang, California, I met several people who still spoke Danish fluently. But even there, there were many who had no knowledge of Danish. Kevin Browne ---------- From: George M Gibault Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (01) [E] >Hi! Does anyone know where I can get some information on Albany Dutch? One of my Loyalist/Tory ancestral lines from New Brunswick (Canada) includes about 40 ancestors from Beverwijk, Albany, and Poughkipsie in colonial New Netherlands/New York. I too have heard Dutch in Lynden/Lyndon? Washington. Both Dutch and German are spoken by farrm families in the Fraser Valley of British Columbia between Langley and Hope - particularly German by the large Mennonite community at Clearbrook, in Abbotsford, and in Sumas - just across the line from Lynden. Lynden is also the cleanest little town I have ever been in - with the most churches per acre as well. In the Kootenay Boundary country - between Grand Forks and Nelson - the Doukhobors (anarchist vegetarian pacifist communalist Christians) preserve their own archaic Russian dialect. I have heard that the Hutterites in Alberta have their own German dialect, and that there is also a lot of German still in the Rhineland district of southwestern Manitoba, while Kashubian (language or Polish dialect) from the Pomeranian /Polish border region was spoken in the Ottawa Valley - and may still survive to some extent, as with German on the Lunenberg stretch of Nova Scotia's east coast. There is a bit of Gaelic left in the Margaree valley of western Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia. This latter has had some revival with younger learners - almost entirely because of the discovery of its wonderful musical and singing tradition. Language preservationists take note - get the kids singing it and writing their own songs in it and it might have a shot! Good luck! George ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Language survival Last time I was in Lynden, the place was swarming with young Mennonites that were on a bus tour from across the border. They were wearing traditional costume. I was desperate to hear them talk, but they talked very little and very softly, and I was afraid they would have me arrested for stalking them if I got any closer. Ah, well. But I did hear Dutch spoken here and there. George, Kashubian (Cassubian) presence in North America is not negligible, and Kashubian is often used here in its own right, independently from Polish. http://www.feefhs.org/kana/frg-kana.html http://www.ka-na.org/ http://www.kaszuby.com.pl/ http://modraglina.republika.pl/kaszlink.html What is interesting about Kashubian (which is considered by many the surviving eastern branch of Pomeranian, replaced by LS on what is now the German side of the border) is that it has a lot of Lowlands Saxon (Low German) influences, traditionally referred to as "German" influences. This and the fact that some Kashubians are or used to be Lutherans caused some Poles to refer to them as Germanized Poles. I understand that, like Lowlands Saxon in Germany, Kashubian is losing speakers in Poland, though Kashubian cultural loyalty is still fairly strong among young people. http://odur.let.rug.nl/lic/abs/toby.html Regards, Reinhard/Ron ---------- From: Henry Baron Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.31 (06) [E] As one who grew up in Lynden, WA, I can attest to the fact that Lowlands languages are still heard around town and church, particularly Frisian. This is even more the case in Grand Rapdis, MI, where I now live. Years ago there was a large Frisian society here, named after Gysbert Japiks. Now some twenty of us get together regularly for lunch, practicing the Westlauersk Frisian tongue. A Frisian church service once a year still draws some hundred people. A number of folk still use Grunnigs and Dutch as well. Some of these are second-generation who learned the mother tongue at home. But yes, in the not too-distant future, that too will have passed. Henry ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 23:11:27 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:11:27 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.31 (08) [E] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (08) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: ezinsser at icon.co.za Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Hi all, Yes Ron, it is true that "the taboo replacement word then became tabooized itself and also came to be used as a swerword." [sic] A typical example in Afrikaans is "kak" - faeces (from L. faex). An euphemistic form [*cagare* sp.? - still known in Italian] took its place and has become the form now used in Afrikaans. As this "k" word (noun and verb) became a taboo word in Afrikaans, the form "akkies" came to be used, mostly amongst smaller kids and their mothers. The word 'poef' is more generally used in closed company. The origin of 'smuk' interested me! (I always knew it was suspect :-) In Afrikaans the word is used to denote an embellishment, whether fake or echt, and semantically carries a somewhat negative meaning. Talking about taboos - while reading your LS forms on /penis/ other similar Afrikaans forms came to mind, i.e. _piel_ (rude) (from Latin pilus - arrow _peester_ (which I know from childhood but unknown to most Afrikaans speakers my age or younger). Incidentally also known in Mennonite Plaut. Regards, Elsie Zinsser ---------- From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Lexicon" 2002.10.30 (06) [E] Ron wrote: >What really interests me about words of this type is tabooization, >replacement and their consequences. For instance, I have noticed that at >least older Lowlands Saxon (Low German) speakers in Germany, or anyone >feeling the need to sound more polite tends to use the more polite *German* >equivalents or loan translations for such words to make them sound more >"medical" or "clinical." > Curiously, I find a different tendency in Shetland. My pious aunts would use words like 'erse' when speaking Shetlandic, but I can't imagine them saying 'arse' when using English. The English form sounds more rude. I think that in English there is a dichotomy between polite and impolite words which is less pronounced in many local dialects. That is, these dialects, being perceived as more 'earthy', use words which would be regarded as impolite in English without any impolite connotation, and some people will use words (or their cognates) when speaking 'dialect' which they would not use when speaking the standard language. Of course, this does not mean that some words - such as the F and C words - are not still regarded as impolite. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Lexicon John Magnus: > Curiously, I find a different tendency in Shetland. My pious aunts would use > words like 'erse' when speaking Shetlandic, but I can't imagine them saying > 'arse' when using English. The English form sounds more rude. Ah, that's similar in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), but only if there is no sexual connotation. I hear and read our own Clara Kramer-Freudenthal use LS words whose German equivalents she would never use. In fact, because the German equivalents are considered too rude, people will often substitute them with LS equivalents when they speak German. This makes it a little funny in a folksy sort of way and thus more acceptable, but it can of course only be done among North Germans that understand such words, at least via Missingsch. For instance, a North German counterpart of your aunt would not say _Er ist auf den Arsch gefallen_ ("He fell on his arse.") but might say _Er ist auf den Moors gefallen_ (using the LS word, cf. LS _He is up d'n Moors fullen_) or, borrowing a LS phrase, _Er ist moorslangs hingefallen_ ("He fell down on his backside ("arselong")"; cf. LS _He is moorslangs daalfullen_). Similarly, your aunt's counterpart would have no problem expressing something like "That's too bad/a shame/a bad situation!" or "Rats!" or "Shoot!" as _Das ist ein Schiet!_ where the fully German version _Das ist eine Schei?e!_ or, more North German with the LS-based masculine, _Das ist ein Schei?!_ (which you will hear younger people say practically anywhere) would not be acceptable. I noticed a similar phenomenon among speakers of Yiddish or their descendants, both in Hebrew and English. A Hebrew or English expression would be substituted with its Yiddish one to soften it, take out the sting, such as _tokhes_ ~ _tukhes_ for "ass" (= backside), or _meshugge_ for "crazy", or for dramatization of disapproval and/or ridicule, _shmatte_ ("rag") for "rag" (= old, ugly dress/outfit). Regards, Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 23:12:56 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:12:56 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Literature" 2002.10.31 (09) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Labels" > From: George M Gibault > Subject: LL-L "Labels" 2002.10.28 (09) [E] > > reference to Hotspur and the Northumbrian uvular "r") to emphasize the > peculiarities of their regional speech. I have never heard a Scottish > sounding MacBeth let alone (little own?) a Gaelic accented one. > Any thoughts or experience of dialect in Shakespeare? ps Saint Jacobs > Ontario where my maternal grandfather was born is still so German many > people jokingly refer to it as Yakobstrudel (a take off on "Jacob's > stettel.) English West Country people (speakers of the Wessexian dialects) complain about Shakespearian actors' use of "do", where it's used as an auxiliary, eg "She do talk perdy" (not being able to think of an example from Shakespear, I make up my own!). I think this gives a sort of continuous tense, but anyway, the "do" shouldn't be emphasised, it should be pronounced with a schwa, or elided to the following word if it begins with a vowel. There is a Scots translation of Macbeth by R L C Lorimer (Canongate Press, 1992) ISBN 0 86241 389 3. I quote: Thunner an lichtning: Ben comes the Three Weirds. WEIRD I Whan will hiz three meet agen? In binnerin flauchts o fire or renn? WEIRD II Whan the tuilyie-muilyie's dune, an the bargain's tint or wun. WEIRD III That sall tide gin darkening. WEI RD II Whaur convene ye our meeting? WEIRD I Tryst wi me on Hardmuir, neth our wee hillock. WEIRD III Tae hailse MacBeth! WEIRD I Horse an hattock, horse an ride! WEIRD II Comin, Bawtie! WEI RD III Puddock cries, belyve, belyve! Aa three Weirds [skailin] Fair be foul, an foul be fair, flicher i the smoch an smitten air! [But gae they aa. Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 23:32:25 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:32:25 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.31 (10) [S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (10) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: John M. Tait Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2002.10.30 (14) [E/S] Ron wrate: A'm ferlie cause the Auld English has >_dry^ge_ ['dry:j@] fer 'dry', an A wis expeckin sumhin lik *_dreich_, >*_dreech_ or *_dree_ fer it in Scots, sumhin wioot a diphthong an mibbie >ennin wi a fricative. > >Whit dae ye think, fowk? Cuid "dreich" be the oreeginal Scots wird fer >"dry" an aw, an cuid "dry" be an English lenwird? Or cuid "dreich" een >be a Lawlands Saxon lenwird? > >Guidwill till ye aw (an A apologees maistlie till wir dear Scottish >freends fer thrapplin their bonnie leid). I dinna ken aboot the etymology here (tho CSD gies ME _dregh_, _dre(i)3(yogh)_ as the source o 'driech', wi 'dree' as a - aiblins obsolete - variant) but I juist thocht at, gin Ron isna fashed bi constructive creeticism o his Scots, I'd pynt oot at I dinna think ye can say 'I'm ferlie.' CSD dis leet it as a adjective (tho it disna gie onie examples) but as faur's I'v iver haurd it's aither a noun ('that's a ferlie') or a verb ('he ferlied at the sicht.'). It coud be a aulder uiss, o coorse. Gin Sandy haes his SND haundy... Canna be muckle wrang wi yer Scots, Ron, if I can only finnd ae thing ti girn aboot! Haud gaun, I wad say. John M. Tait. http://www.wirhoose.co.uk ---------- From: R. F. Hahn Subject: Etymology John Magnus: > Canna be muckle wrang wi yer Scots, Ron, if I can only finnd ae thing ti > girn aboot! Haud gaun, I wad say. Och, muckle-shmuckle! Girn awa! A dinna mynd sae lang as A can haud forrit wi ma "Scots" an git a smirtle oot o it noos an thans. Reinhard/Ron ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . ======================================================================= From admin at lowlands-l.net Thu Oct 31 23:37:28 2002 From: admin at lowlands-l.net (Lowlands-L) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2002 15:37:28 -0800 Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.31 (11) [E/S] Message-ID: ====================================================================== L O W L A N D S - L * 31.OCT.2002 (11) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226 Web Site: Email: admin at lowlands-l.net Rules & Guidelines: Posting Address: Server Manual: Archive: ======================================================================= You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request. To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message text from the same account to or sign off at . ======================================================================= A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze?uws) ======================================================================= From: Daniel Prohaska Subject: LL-L "spelling" 2002.10.30 (12) [E/S/LS] Dear Scots Lowlanders, Are there any attemps made in Scotland to reform Scots spelling? It is my impression that Scots spelling is very inconsistent (as is English) and that the Middle Scots orthographic practises are only partially retained whereas English-based trasliterations similar to English dialect orthographies are often intermingled with the older Scots forms. Do Scots speakers with the ability to write Scots feel their orthographical traditions to be separate from Standard English in Scotland, or are there attemps to reintegrate older spellings and bring back what has been replaced by English dialect orthography ( I specifically mean the -spellings; or are they felt to be Scots?). Have there been attempts to "start from scratch" and invent an entirely new Scots orthography based on phonological analasys, or supra dialectal forms? Yours, Dan ---------- From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org] Subject: "Orthography" > From: John M. Tait > Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2002.10.27 (04) [S] > > Coorse I suppose the logical spellin o auld _wald_ wad be _waud_, follaein > the common orthographic practice o writin 'u' for vocalised 'l' - Ay, that's no a bad idea. > bawbee-flingin maiter. Coorse, I ken ye'r spaekin aboot yer ain practics > here - hou ye sinder the English an Scots in spellin. That's richt, it wis a anecdote! A'v been thinkin on giein up on the "A" spellin for a guid while nou. Apairt fae the fack that it's soondit different in different airts (it's written "Eh" in a Dundee dialeck beuk A'v got), it's no aesy tae write - A keep forgettin tae capitalise it and whan it's in wee letters it's haurd tae nottice it's a mistak wi the wey it leuks juist like the indefinite airticle. > >Hivin sayed aa this, baith ma spellins an Colin's is aa fanklt > >wi English orthographic 'principles', an sae ye can haurly expeck > >conseestency onywey! A ken fine nouadays hou tae heyst masel oot > >this historic boggie, but A'v got it on guid authority that naebody > >wad want tae read ma Scots if A did! > > This is no necessarily true. Ye coud mak up a consistent spellin for Scots > foondit on English orthography - for example, consonant-dooblin rules - as It is sut true. The'r nae richt rules in English orthography, juist derivations o what's the maist uizual wey tae write things. This is how A'v got 'principles' in quotes abuin. Can ye set doun the consonant-dooblin rule in sic a wey as it's vera near aye richt? > French an ither anes, like 'touch'). Sae ye'v ti recognise thaim > as sindrie > systems - an morphological spellins the likes o '-na' an '-fu' as > anither. How hiv ye tae? The'r'd be naething wrang wi writin 'tutch' "staishin" an siclike ayont the auld excuise that fowk wadna like it. > whiles wonder whit Scots spellin wad be like gin it wis spelt efter the > spellin rules o the Latin an Greek loanwords - wi nae, or little, > consonant > dooblin, for example. I ken ye'v cleckit sic a system yersel > afore nou, but > wad it be different gin the ettle wis ti haud the Latinate an Greek word i > the same system? Wad it be possible? > > Haith - I'v likely stertit ye aff again....! A dinna see hou this can be duin at aa. The Romans an Greeks atween them didna hae eneuch vouels for us, sae the'r nae precedents for the digraphs we'd need. A daur say it's aesy eneuch tae simplify English/Scots spellin dramatically wi the conseestent application o ane or twa rules. Gin ye juist sayed "nae magic E, nae dooblt vowels" like A did in thon system o mines, ye'd be hauf roads tae reddin the hale midden! Sandy http://scotstext.org/ ==================================END=================================== * Please submit postings to . * Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form. * Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies. * Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are to be sent to or at . =======================================================================