LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (05) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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 L O W L A N D S - L * 17.OCT.2002 (05) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Thomas Byro <thbyro at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E]

Marco

I lived in Ringwood in northern New Jersey for years.  I used to know many
of the Jackson Whites personally.  Although family names like vanZutphen,
Onderdonk, deGroat, vanDunk, etc. predominate, I never came across anyione
who spoke other than English.  But their population ranges through some
pretty wild areas, so who knows.  Many of the ones I knew made a living in
questionable ways, such as "jacking" deer (I know a bar in Wanaque with an
enormous meat locker where one can sell such meat).  They are universally
proud of their ability to shoot and to hunt.

Their favorite watering hole, by the way, is a bar in the remote mountains
operated by a man from Bremen, Walter Fahloh.  Walter calls the place
"Walters Mountain Rest.' There is a big sign out, "Wellcome Old Bastards."
There is a shooting range out back and Jackson White mountain men come in
toting their guns.  Some come in barefoot.  If you ask Walter for a shot of
"mellow Corn", he will bring an unlabelled bottle out from under the counter
and serve you homemade schnapps so powerful that I swear it will take the
paint off a car.

I attended a lecture at Ringwood Manor, given by the local historical
society years ago on the origin of the Jackson Whites. According to the
lecturer, the name originated with a man named Jackson, who got as contract
to supply 200 prostitutes to the English army in New York during the
revolutionary war.  He got some prostitutes to volunteer off the streets of
london but got nowhere the total that he needed.  So, he started kidnapping
women, and brought his total up to 100.  For the remainder, he bught 100
slaves and set off for New York.

The women were kept in a stockade and were abandoned when the English lost
the war and had to break out.  Everywhere they went they were shooed off by
farmers with guns, so they made their way across the Hudson River to
northern New Jersy, an area that was inhabbited by Dutch bandits who had
intermarried with Indians.  They intermarried with these people and thus
were born the Jackson Whites.

My brother still lives in that area and he informed that that the Jackson
Whites had recently been classified as the Ramapo Indian tribe.

By the way, I heard of another remote population originating in Scotland who
live near Bear Mountain, NY.  Reportedly they speak a form of English that
no one can understand and they also live by hunting and who knows what else.
Reportedly many also go baefoot.

Tom

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From: robert bowman <bowman at montana.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2002.10.16 (06) [E]

On Wednesday 16 October 2002 10:26, Marco wrote:
> If there's anyone out there who knows more
> about this subject (the Dutch language in and
> around the area once known as New Nether-
> land), please let me know!

I can only answer in the negative. I grew up in Wynantskill, NY, which was
one of the small villages formed from Rensselaerwyck, which is the present
day Rensselaer county. The Dutch Reformed church dated back to 1794,
although
the present building is newer. The old church was still there when I was a
kid, but had almost reached 'haunted house status'

In my family, my paternal grandmother was the last person who could speak
anything but English. Unfortunately, I was very young when she died, so I no
idea what dialect it was.   Some phrases and words remained, but that was
about it. For instance, I was in my teens before I knew what 'chives' were.
i'd eaten a lot of Schnittlau though.  Many of the place names reflected the
heritage, though many were really more German than Dutch, like Berlin, Alps,
Nassau. Some were Anglicized, like the Greenbushes. Wynantskill and
Poestenkill survived, I think,  because those were the name of the creeks
also. Even the term 'Dutch' was applied more in the sense of Deutsch, rather
than strictly implying Dutch.

When I went back for my mother's funeral, the minister in the church was
from
the Netherlands. (I don't think Dutch Reformed ministers are churned out by
US seminaries anymore, though the one when I was growing up did come from
pennsylvania). As far as I know, there was no one in the church that could
speak to the minister in his native language.

There may have been other pockets where Dutch survived. Rensselaer was
rural,
and some of the villages were quite isolated, so one would think it would be
there, if anyplace. To reference the 'history' thread, this area definitely
is northern Appalachia, with all the clanishness and conservatism of the
southern mountains, except it is Dutch/German rather than
Scotch/Irish/British.


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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language survival

Robert,

Your grandmother's _Schnittlau_ apparently corresponds to Standard German
_Schnittlauch_ (literally "cut(ting) leek/onion:) 'chive(s)'.  There are
many names for it in Lowlands Saxon (Low German), depending on the dialect:
_Beesslook_, _Beessluuk_, _Beslack_, _Beslook_, _Bieslack_, _Bieslook_,
_Graslook_, _Schnittlow_, _Sneelook_, _Snittlook_, _Snittlow_,
_Snittsippel_, _Snittziepel_, _Snittzipoll_, _Snittzippel_.  Dutch has
_bieslook_.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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