LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E]
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L O W L A N D S - L * 23.OCT.2002 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Kirky <planetkirky at yahoo.com.au>
Subject: Source of "Opoe"?
Greetings to all,
Incidentally for those interested in a humourous view of 'Strine'/
'Strayan'/ or Australian as most people know it, there is "The Dinkum
Dictionary: A ripper guide to Aussie English" by Lenie (Midge)
Johansen. This has some gems such as 'cackleberry' meaning an egg, and
'checking (one's) eyelids for holes' meaning having a nap :)
Sincerely,
Kirstina [Bray]
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From: Kirky <planetkirky at yahoo.com.au>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.21 (03) [E]
Hi all,
This is interesting.
A well known Canadian stereotype is that everyone ends a sentence in
'eh' as emphasis, it's origin well known from early French influence.
Eg. if an Australian says "G'day mate", a Canadian says "Good day,
eh!". I've noticed a number of Canadian immigrants in Australia, to
the point where there is a Toronto in Canada Bay, in the Sydney Region
NSW.
As the noticable rise in 'oui' (oh-u-e) for 'o' (oh) in South Australia
may be attributed to New Zealand migrants, perhaps this influx of 'eh'
might be from Canadian ones? Could be much earlier influences of
course, but it's something to ponder.
Kirstina [Bray]
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From: Browne, Kevin at Astronaut <BrowneK at brevard.k12.fl.us>
Subject: language varieties
Hoi allemaal,
Gary Taylor wrote:
"I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair enough -
but then any books on the local dialect are usually
to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious
study of dialects I've found most of the books to
be pretty useless."
First I would like to say I'm not attacking you Gary. Perhaps
I'm just in a bad mood, but some of the discussions are far
above me and I feel quite ignorant. I know many on this list
are doing whatever they can to protect and promote the
languages we so dearly love, but I think any "serious" book
on the study of dialects is useful and I haven't even seen
them. At least someone out there is trying, which is more
than I can say for the average person.
Secondly, I don't mean to brag on my methods as a teacher in
a high school, but many of my students have said that they
actually learned German in my class in comparison to other
foreign language classes where they may have learned how to
say "hello, good morning, my name is, goodbye" ...and that's
about it. I know my methods will always need work, but at
the moment, they are working. I would like to take my ideas
into the realm of minority languages from this list, particularly
Dutch, Zeeuws, Frysk, Afrikaans and now, thanks to Ron at least
one Native American language that has only about 6,000 speakers
here in the state of Florida. But, I need help, because I can
only read Afrikaans (can't speak it) and can read and speak
Dutch with numerous errors. I am currently writing my own
textbook to promote here in the schools, because most of them
are terrible. The textbook will be very concise without a lot
of "useless pictures" (one need only get on the internet to
see pictures of Germany, etc.) and has the students reading
simple texts in the language very quickly. I would really like
to do that with some of the other lowlands languages, but as
I have said, I need to learn the basics of those languages too.
If someone were to translate my "textbook" into those languages
I could learn them at the same time I teach my students.
Many might say that one could not introduce these languages
in the schools in the U.S., but I say, why not try. Who has
tried? I'd like to try! I have a lot more I could say on this,
but I might need a book to do it and I've already taken enough
of your time.
Okay (oh that word, okay, o.k.)Ron, take your best shot at me!
Kevin Browne
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From: George M Gibault <gmg at direct.ca>
Subject: Class accents
Bonjour, y'all!
Of course it is not just low status accents that get parodied. There used
to be quite a lot of people who spoke a sort of toffee nose Southern
Vancouver Island British accent - still heard "behind the tweed curtain" in
Oak Bay - but gradually dying out it appears. About twenty years ago I was
told that west coast naval officers had been ordered by their eastern
higher ups to stop "putting it on." Our local MP still speaks a moderate
form of it - and his political detractors - such as myself - sometimes
refer to him as David Onderson (real name Anderson) to make the point. The
dialect survey of British Columbia English which I worked on in university
found traces of it in upper class Vancouver neighbourhoods and in the posh
rural Okanagan Valley - so apparently it was once quite real and not "put
on" until later recognition of its value by social climbers. By the mid
20th century its speakers were pretty universally thought to be using it
against the rest of us. ant vs. awnt for aunt was a classic test.
Interestingly enough, a transitional form developed with a sort of mid
vowel ahnt (also used tomaeto not tomawto or tomayto) and this was not
heard as a snob accent by the rest of us.
I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their
pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist, for
instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an
aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this northern
"high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"?
which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"?
Curiously yours George
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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Kevin:
> Okay (oh that word, okay, o.k.)Ron, take your best shot at me!
Hi, Kev! No shot from me, partly because I feel too darn sleepy, and partly
because I don't have any issue with what you said. So once again you are
getting away unscathed, at least as far as I am concerned. I always
appreciate your enthusiasm and your willingness to take fresh looks at old
issues and to "think outside the box" (sorry), and no doubt by many of your
students appreciate them as well.
George:
> I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their
> pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist,
for
> instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an
> aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this
northern
> "high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"?
> which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"?
This is becoming a thing of the past. I am old enough to remember that
general type of "better" North German "accent" quite well. These days it is
mostly aged upper- and upper-middle-class Northerners who pronounce German
like that. In Hamburg, Bremen, Rostock and Lübeck it used to be or still is
referred to as "Hanseatisch." It is how most well-educated and -situated
North Germans used to speak, especially in the cities, the upper-class
equivalent of low-class Missingsch (German dialects on Lowlands Saxon [Low
German] substrates), which is also fading away.
Both varieties have in common certain Lowlands Saxon phonological rules.
The pronunciation of syllable-final /g/ as [x] (as though written <ch>), and
in many cases a preceding long vowel is shortened. Thus, you get words like
_Tag_ [t_hax] 'day' (as though written <Tach> vs. Standard [t_ha:k], cf. LS
_Dag_ [dax]) and _Zug_ [ts_hUx] 'train' (as though written <Zuch> vs.
Standard [ts_hu:k], cf. LS _Tog_ [t_hOx]). (Some Hanseats may say [ts_hu:x]
with a long vowel.) Syllable-final /r/ is "deleted," i.e., changes into a
vowel, as in LS; e.g., _Mark_ [mQ:k] (South Hamburg) ~ [ma:k] (North
Hamburg) 'mark'. These two features are fairly persistent; they can still
be observed in upper- and lower-class Northern German. Pronouncing _st..._
as [st] and _sp..._ as [sp] (as in English, Dutch, Danish, etc.) and using
an apical (toungue-tip) /r/, both derived from LS, are two common upper- and
lower-class North German features that are now on their way out. Most
people now pronounce _st..._ as _scht..._ and _sp..._ as _schp..._, and they
use the uvular (throat) /r/ (similar to the French /r/).
The main differences between now moribund upper-class North German (NG) and
lower-class Missingsch (M) are that NG distinguishes dative and accusative
while M does not, NG tends to follow Standard German syntactic rules (e.g.,
_Damit habich nich(t)s zu tuun_ 'I don't have anything to do with it/that.')
while M tends to follow LS syntax (e.g., _Da happich niks mit zu (~ missu)
tuun_ 'I don't have anything to do with it/that.' vs. Standard _Damit habe
ich nichts zu tun._, LS _Daar heff ik niks mit to doon._), and M uses far,
far more LS loanwords than does NG.
In Missingsch, as in LS, there is no phonetic difference between (1)
_machen_ 'to make', 'to do', and (2) _mögen_ 'to like' in most persons,
while many NG speakers will make a difference:
Standard NG Missingsch LS
ich mache ['max@] ich mach(e) [max(e)] ich mach [max] ik mag [max]
ich mag [ma:k] ich mach [max] ich mach [max] ik mag [max]
Also, NG speakers may be more inclined to distinguish 'it' from 'that',
while M speakers (like most LS speakers) never do:
Standard: Es regnet.
NG: Es reechnet.
M: Das reechnet.
LS: Dat regent.
'It rains.', 'It is raining.'
Standard: Ich mag es gern.
NG: Ich mach es geern(e).
M: Ich mach das (~ machas) geerne.
LS: Ik mag (~ mach) dat geern.*
'I like it.'
* Some LS dialects have retained old _it_ ~ _et_ 'it'.
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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