LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.24 (01) [E]
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L O W L A N D S - L * 24.OCT.2002 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic
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From: Daniel Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E]
George wrote:
"I have heard that educated north Germans can be picked out by their
pronunciation of Hochdeutsch - my Brandenburg Prussian endocrinologist,
for
instance , says guten tach, not guten tak for guten tag - and he is an
aristocrat by birth. Can anyone tell me the other features of this
northern
"high" German? Or where I can read about it? Is it like "stage German"?
which I understand has a rolled rather than a gutteral "r"?
Curiously yours George"
Hi George,
I have nothing to add to Rons assessment of phonological interference
from Low German in the spoken Standard German of the North, but because
of my being an actor, I can tell you a bit about "stage German"
(Bühnendeutsch) which has often been called the only true spoken
standard of German. I would disagree here to a certain extent as to
whether it can be considered a spoken standard since many of its
characteristics are simply an over-enunciated version of a reading
pronunciation (Leseaussprache).
Some characteristics of "Bühnendeutsch":
- long and short vowels kept apart before /r/:
.)
stark - Stärke (short)
uvular /r/ pronounced;
.)
Fahrt - Fährte (long)
uv. /r/ weakly
pronounced or vocalised
(scha-offglide);
- long <e> /e:/ and long <ä> (E:/ distinct (whether
etymologically justified or not => Leseaussprache! Reading
pronunciation); <Saal>
/za:l/ - <Säle> /ze:l@/ - <Seele> /se:l@/;
- <e> = schwa in present participle pronounced: /- at nt/ also in
dat.sg. <-em> /- at m/ => <großen> /`gro:sn./ vs. <großem> /`gro:s at m/,
- analogical lengthening from the plural forms in historically
short- vowel monosyllabic singular forms are the rule, as in Upper
German, i.e. <Tag> /ta:k/ - <Tage> /ta:g@/, and not Middle
High German /tak/ or Northern Standard German (tax/;
- initial <s> is voiced, except in loanwords, i.e. <sechs>
/zEks/ vs.
<Sex> /sEks/.
Northern German influence is to be seen in:
- the /c,/ pronunciation in final unstressed <-ig> in <König>
/kö:nIc,/ vs. Upper German /könIk/ and <günstig> /gÜnstIc,/ vs UG
/günstIk/, (though some would also accept this pronunciation on
stage, it is not the rule, however).
- distribution of Glottal stop before word-initial vowels is
like Low German, and quite unlike the Upper German dialects.
The rolled /r/ is no longer the rule and is heard less and less, and
considered to be quite affected. Generally Austrian actors get away with
it more easily as rolled or trilled /r/s are often in the phonetic
repertoire of Austrian Upper German dialects, and it thus sounds more
natural. It is rarly heard on German stages unless a degree of affection
or achaism is intended.
It is often heard when German is sung, as in opera, operetta or
Lied-Repertoire, rarely though in Musical, chanson, or Brecht-Lieder,
for example.
"Guten Tach" has a very Prussian ring to my Austrian/Upper German ear.
Greetings,
Daniel
----------
From: Daniel Prohaska daniel at ryan-prohaska.com
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.18 (05) [E]
G`day,
Generally I would agree with what has been said about the Aussie
vowels, however the "back" vowel/diphthong for standard E /ou/ retains
its diphthongal quality, thouugh fronted and slightly rounded, whereas
/i:/ and /u:/ have continued the diphthongal tendencies inherent to
Cockney high vowels. So /u:/ and /i:/ are realised with a more closed
(and rounded, in the case of /u:/) coda than the onset. The onset is
also substantially lower than the onset of most other varieties of
English (Cockney, Dixy and Southern Hemisphere varieties excluded).
Aussie shifts RP /ae/ to /E/ and /E/ to /e/, and /I/ to /i/. As
correctly observed New Zealand goes even further shifting /e/ to /I/ and
original /I/ to /@/ (= schwa/ in the Kiwi schibboleth "f at sh `n ch at ps".
Compare South African English and Afrikaans!
Striking in both Strine/Strayan and Kiwi is the reduction of unstressed
/I/ in final closed syllables to /@/. Excluded /eks`klüyd at d/ -
/Iks`clüyd at d/.
Say yuh lider (ouside perception!!!),
Dään
----------
From: Stan Levinson <stlev99 at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (02) [E]
Since we are still dancing around the Australian
vowels (and I want Andrys to sit in his office at
Monash pronouncing sounds and freaking out his
neighbors), I would like to present the next exhibit,
your honors, namely, the humble sound /i/, i.e. that
one usually spelled "ee" or "ea", etc.
It seems to me that many Aussies pronounced words such
as "beat" (maybe I'm wrong on the example, 'cause I
haven't figured out all the limitations) with an /i/
that kind of starts with something else, something
more central.
Now here's what I wonder: while I know VERY little
about Irish and possible influence of Irish Gaelic on
Hiberno-English or other forms of English where the
Irish immigrated, I wonder if this sound in Australian
doesn't reflect something like the Irish (Gaelic)
"broad" sounds vs. the "slender" sounds (terms used in
an Irish book). Basically slender there means that
the consonants are palatalized, while the "broad" are
not, and tend to make the vowels sound more rounded.
Any takers on this one? Any folks knowledgeable of
Irish that can put me out of my "misery"?
Andrys: go into your office, and start pronouncing:
beat, feet, street, neat, meet, read, bead, ....
Stan
----------
From: Helge Tietz <helgetietz at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (10) [E]
Concerning the Hamboich-pronounciation:
This is a common Northern German accent stretching
from the Rhineland to the Danish border which is based
on the Low Saxon tendency to pronounce all
post-vocalic g's as German ch, somebody from Duisburg
would call his town "Duesbuich", I myself do the same,
if we have almost lost the Low Saxon language in
Northern Germany, at least we can try to preserve some
distinctive accent in the High German spoken there. To
pronounce a post-vocalic g as ch is actually correct
German, in particular in words as "Koenig", please
check the "Duden" (the standart German dictionary) for
this. Sometimes foreigners who learn German have a
tendency to be hyper-correct, I have heard foreigners
pronouncing the town of Rostock as "Roschtock", though
German is fairly phonetic in compare to English it
still has a lot of deviations !
----------
From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (10) [E]
Ron wrote:
> Note also that in Missingsch and other not so "fein" North German
dialects,
> /l/ may get vocalized in the same position; e.g., _Milch_ [me.IC] ("fein":
> [mIlC]) 'milk'. This happens in some LS dialects as well; e.g., _Melk_
> [mE.lk] ~ [mE.Ik] ~ [mE:k] 'milk', _Bülg_ [bY.lC] ~ [bY.IC] ~ [bY:C]
'wave',
> _Bülgen_ [bY.lgN=] ~ [bY.IgN=] ~ [bY:gN=] 'waves'. (Note that Dutch
> dialects prefer to break up such clusters by means of epenthetic vowels;
> e.g., _melk_ ['mEWl at k] 'milk'.)
Actually, this is so ingrained in me that, when I'm tired or distracted, I
tend to drop my Rs and Ls all over the place, in any language!
My first husband was Dutch, and when I first learned the language, I told
him - in Dutch - that something was "waam" (at least I didn't say "wööm",
like a good Hanoverian should). I didn't see why he didn't get it, since the
word "warm" is the same in Dutch and German, after all - or so I thought. I
had to spell it out for him, and then he said: "Oh, you mean warrrrrrem!"
That particular r, of course, gets dropped in English, too, although it is
pronounced in "farm", "harm", etc.
Regards,
Gabriele Kahn
----------
From: Global Moose Translations <globalmoose at t-online.de>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2002.10.23 (08) [E]
Moin Mike,
well, of course, I cannot quantify that from a brief two-days stay. But I
overheard some middle-aged people talking in Platt in a pub, and there were
a great many books to be had, and it also appeared a lot in writing on
brochures, posters, etc. I don't know about children, of course, but I had
the impression that, at least in the villages, most people over thirty would
be able to switch without a problem. And their children should at least have
a passive knowledge (one hopes).
If only NDR, the Northern German public broadcating station, had enough
money to dub Sesame Street and Teletubbies into Platt...
All the best,
Gabriele Kahn
----------
From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Dear All
I wrote previously
"I always have to go to the 'Local' section - fair
enough -
but then any books on the local dialect are usually
to be found under the 'humour' subsection. For serious
study of dialects I've found most of the books to
be pretty useless."
The kind of books I was talking about tend not to be
serious, and they have the affect of making a joke out
of the local dialect. As I went on to say, there are
some excellent books out there about dialects -
however, still too often classified as 'humourous'.
Sorry if I sounded like I was 'diss'ing all dialect
books.
Gary
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties
Stan, you wrote (above):
> I would like to present the next exhibit,
> your honors, namely, the humble sound /i/, i.e. that
> one usually spelled "ee" or "ea", etc.
> It seems to me that many Aussies pronounced words such
> as "beat" (maybe I'm wrong on the example, 'cause I
> haven't figured out all the limitations) with an /i/
> that kind of starts with something else, something
> more central.
I tend to hear that as a diphthong, something like [Ii], especially after
labials, as in "beat," "peat" or "meat."
Helge, you wrote (above):
> Sometimes foreigners who learn German have a
> tendency to be hyper-correct, I have heard foreigners
> pronouncing the town of Rostock as "Roschtock", though
> German is fairly phonetic in compare to English it
> still has a lot of deviations !
My all-time "favorite" is _Bundestag_ (the name of the German parliament) as
pronounced by American and some British news people who want to demonstrate
their German language prowess: "Bundeschta(a)k". They are not aware that
there is a morpheme boundary there: _Bundes_ and _Tag_, that /st/ > [St]
therefore does not apply. However, Helge, I have heard many a German say
_Roschtock_, clearly because the etymology (which is Slavonic) is not
transparent. People may be thinking of _Stock_ [StOk] 'stick' when they say
it.
Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron
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