LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.09.04 (03) [E]

Wed Sep 4 19:53:39 UTC 2002

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 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian L=Limburgish
 LS=Low Saxon (Low German) S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic Z=Zeelandic (Zeeuws)
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From: "John M. Tait" <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Pronouns" 2002.09.01 (01) [E]

Sandy wrote:
>
>The only use of the "thou" form I actually hear in spoken
>Scots is "tu" (pronounced as a short "too" - /tu/) which as
>far as I know is used here and there throughout the south
>of Scotland. This takes the -s form as you suggested, eg
>"tu kens": "thou knowest".
>
>I can't seem to think of any corresponding "thy" or "thee"
>forms.
>
>This is _only_ used when speaking to young children or pets,
>don't try it on adults! You can see it in Burns's children's
>story at:
>
>http://scotstext.org/pages/resultspage.asp?text=1517&pagetype=text

Shetlandic, as you say, Daniel, has the 'du' form, with oblique 'dee'
and possessive 'dy' and 'dine', corresponding to the forms of older
English.

The traditional use of 'du' in Shetland is more like the European than
Sandy's explanation of the mainland Scots use, which to me sounds like a
remnant of a dying usage. In Shetland, 'du' is used to anyone of your
own generation or younger, and to animals. Only people of the age of
your parents and older, plus teachers, ministers and other 'important'
people, would be called 'you.' One difference from normal European use
is that traditionally, in families, the children are addressed as 'du'
and the parents as 'you'. I remember being sharply reprimanded for using
'du' to my parents.

This traditional distinction is dying out. On the one hand, some people
use only the 'you' form, which is perceived as being more polite - my
sister in law uses 'du' only to the cat. On the other hand, other young
people use 'du' to anyone, including (remarkably to my ears) their
grandparents! My sister in law, who is a primary teacher, quoted,
without criticism, a pupil who addressed her as 'du'. Thus you get the
remarkable situation of a teacher and pupil, both speaking Shetlandic,
and the teacher using 'you' to the pupil, but the pupil using 'du' to
the teacher, who would not correct him because she does not use the
pronoun at all (except to the cat) and using 'du' to her is perceived as
his natural speech which, under the emphasis on 'dialect' use in
schools, you're not supposed to correct. This is just another symptom of
the the consequenses of a laissez-faire educational attitude towards
language, where 'dialect' is perceived as a form of language having no
rules - which in the long run means no connotations. What you end up
with is class differences, where more 'polite' people use the more
English-like forms, thus emulating the situation in much of mainland
Scotland.

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Pronouns

John Magnus,

Your description of the use of _du_ vs _you_ in Shetlandic is certainly
very interesting.

> The traditional use of 'du' in Shetland is more like the European than > Sandy's explanation of the mainland Scots use, which to me sounds like
> a remnant of a dying usage. In Shetland, 'du' is used to anyone of your > own generation or younger, and to animals. Only people of the age of
> your parents and older, plus teachers, ministers and other 'important'
> people, would be called 'you.' One difference from normal European use
> is that traditionally, in families, the children are addressed as 'du'
> and the parents as 'you'. I remember being sharply reprimanded for
> using 'du' to my parents.

Please bear in mind that there is variation in the (Continental)
European use of the familiar vs polite/deferential 2nd-person pronouns,
with regard to dialect, sociolect and generation/era.  While there is
mostly overlap, there are certainly also differences in the socially
correct usage of, say, French _tu_ vs _vous_, Spanish _tu_ vs _usted_
(even if we disregard Latin American dialects), Swedish _du_ vs _De_,
Dutch _jij_ vs _u_, German _du_ vs _Sie_ and, even though
German-derived, North German Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _du_ vs _Se_.

The post-war ("baby boomer") generation in Germany was taught to say
_du_ only to children, teenagers (under 18 or so) and animals, besides
to relatives.  Their model of adult behavior was to use _Sie_ in
addressing all adults, including those of the same age or younger,
unless there was "formal intimacy," i.e., a relationship between adults
"advanced" to the _du_ level by some "rite of passage," usually by the
(perceptably) older party offering the _du_ and the other party
agreeing, and oftentimes this was/is celebrated with a drink
(_Brudershaft trinken_ "to drink brotherhood", usually with the
glas-lifting arms linked.

Much of this began to fall by the wayside in the "revolutionary" 1960s
when lots of social conventions came to be discarded among baby boomers
and those younger, in Eastern Germany under the auspices of legislated
social equality.

At that time young adults started addressing everyone of their own
generation and those younger by means of _du_.  However, this did not
extend any further.  Their parents' generation continued to be addressed
by means of _Sie_, and in most cases they addressed the adult baby
boomers by means of _Sie_.  My mother remained in a _Sie_ relationship
with her neighbor even though they ended up best friends!  (However, she
and our own Ms. Kramer-Freudenthal went to _du_ and first name basis
almost as soon as they met last year.)  This neighbor used to address me
by means of _du_ and promptly switched to _Sie_ on my 18th birthday!
She is a nice and very friendly lady, but she is also what is known as
_etepetete_ ([?e:te pe'te:te] ~ [?e:t@ p@'te:t@], "formal,
perfectionistic, by the book").  Thus, this is a case of personal choice
(of degree of distance).  Other people in similar situations might have
chosen different configurations.

Furthermore, there is an intermediate level: using _Sie_ while still
addressing one by first name.  Thus, when I was a child, the _etepetete_
neighbor would address me with _du_ and _Reinhard_.  When I was a young
adult, this changed to _Sie_ and _Reinhard_.  Now she addresses me with
_Sie_ and _Herr Hahn_!  Interestingly, however, she switched to _du_ and
_Reinhard_ as soon as she switched to Lowlands Saxon (Low German) when I
spoke with her exactly one year ago and she revealed (much to my
surprise) that she spoke the language fluently and well.  However, she
switched back to _Sie_ and _Reinhard_ as soon as she switched back to
German.

Up until the late 19th century, in some cirles even until the mid-20th
century, there was yet another intermediate form, one step below the
most formal level: using _Sie_, first name and _Herr_ (Mr.) or
_Fräulein_ (Miss) in addressing unmarried adults, thus e.g. _Fräulein
Margarete_ and _Sie_.  (This seems similar to old-fashioned British
"(young) Master Gerald" and "(young) Miss Margaret".)  Also up until
about the middle of the 19th century, children in "good"
(upper-middle-class and upper-class) homes addressed their parents not
only with _Sie_ but also with _Frau Mama_ and _Herr Papa_!  At the same
time, in Northern Germany, most Lowlands-Saxon-speaking people in the
neighborhood and certainly in the countryside stuck to _du_ for everyone
and considered those _gutbürgerlich_ modes of address quite alien and
certainly very _geel_ ("yellow") and _etepetete_.  I am sure our friends
in Britain can think of similar contrasts involving class and
dialect/sociolect.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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