LL-L "Phonology" 2003.08.08 (05) [E]

Fri Aug 8 15:03:48 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Phonology"

> From: Holger Weigelt <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
> Subject: "Phonology"
>
> > From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> > Subject: Phonology
> >
> >.....there appears to be some
> > correspondence between Limburgish tones and Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
> > vowel length.
> >
> > Lowlands Saxon -- at least many of its dialects among first language
> > speakers -- adds extra-length to a long vowel where in the next syllable
> > final _-e_  has been dropped and the intervening consonant is voiced.
> Where
> > this now final consonant is pronounced (which applies to all but /-d/),
it
> > remains voiced, i.e. does not undergo the usual rule of final devoicing
> > (common to LS, German, Dutch, also Russian, Polish, etc.).  In this
> > position, some dialects delete /-d/ while others retain it (and keep it
> > voiced).  (It is usually non-native speakers that will apply final
> devoicing
> > in such cases, and the usually absent or insufficient orthographic
> > representation of it reinforces this mispronunciation.)
> >
> > It so happens that this applies to the Lowlands Saxon equivalent of
> Roger's
> > example above:
> >
> > /peird/ -> (peyrd) <Peerd> ~ <Peert> [p_heI3`t] 'horse'
> > (/peird+e/) > /peird=0/ -> (peyrd') <Peerd'> ~ <Peerd> ~ <Peer>
> [pe:I3`(d)]
> >
> > Regards,
> > Reinhard/Ron
> >
> Hello Roger, hello Ron !
> This sounds very interesting for me because it touches a feature I'm
> studying in our Eastern Friesland Low Saxon where it takes an outstanding
> position.
> We have groups of vowels (or diphthongs) consisting of two or three vowel
> lengths each in which the different length-types can be phonemes but also
> change into each other following very strong rules (never changing outside
> these groupings).
> To distinguish them orthographically I write the short vowel as a pure
> letter, the long one with a macron and the overlengthened (in English I
> often call it "stressed" what doesn't refer to the word stress) with an
> accent circonflexe.
> This last type is spoken as a long rising and short falling vowel
(sometimes
> there is a break between both parts) or as a long vowel on a high pitch
> followed by a short one of lower pitch. For people who haven't any idea of
> the pronounciation I like to compare it to the way You announce someone
who
> is distant to You. If for example his name is Tim, there will appear
> something like Tii-im or Tii-him.
> As I always told this type of sound can be a phoneme totally independent
> from dropped syllables or end-es.
> For example a "bâl" is a "ball" (G "Ball").
> In compounds however long or overlengthened sounds are shortened: fautbal
=
> football
> On the other hand Eastern Friesland Low Saxon often takes following
> syllables or words back into their forerunners where they remain just as
an
> overlengthened sound:
> For example: "het häi ?" (hEt hæI) = has he ? becomes "häed ?" (h´E:`Ed).
> (_äe_ is the overlengthened vowel corresponding to E. Following the rule
> that no letter may carry more than one diacritic in the cases of _ö_ and
_ü_
> the long vowels are shown by doubled letters and the "stressed" ones by
> adding an _e_ to them. But there are also the sound groups _e_/_äe_,
> _ö_/_öe_,_ü_/_üe_, _i_/_ie_ and _o_/_oe. For example _öö_ [ø:] and
> _ööe_[´ø:`ø]  are a group distinct from _ö_[œ]/_öe_[´œ:`@])
> Also many plural forms go this way:
> "hūs" = house  hūsen / hûs (both are in use).
> And more there is a striking coincidence between German two-syllable words
> (with end-e) and the corresponding EFLS words of one syllable with an
> overlengthened vowel:
> Examples 1. words) LS "kât" G "Katze", LS "mât" G "Matte", LS "hêğ" G
> "Hecke", LS "rîğ" G "Reihe"
> 2. grammatical forms) LS "dat hūs is rōd" / "dat rôd hūs" G "das Haus ist
> rot" / "das rote Haus"
> In total the whole thing is quite comprehensive but possibly my short
> introduction gives You an impression of the fact and stuff for further
> discussion.
> Kind regards
> Holger
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Phonology
>
> Moyen, Holger, Lowlanders!
>
> Your data and observations are very interesting, Holger.  To gain clearer
> insight into what is going on there one would need a much larger sample
with
> as many minimal pairs and triplets as possible.  I look forward to reading
> your pice about it.
>
> Clearly, Eastern Friesland Low Saxon and other dialects of the language
are
> quite different in many regards, especially lexically and phonologically.
I
> noticed that EFLS often has long monophthongs where other dialects have
> diphthongs.
>
> > LS "hêğ" G "Hecke", LS "rîğ" G "Reihe"
>
> In other North Saxon dialects the former has a short vowel: _hek_ (<Heck>)
> [hEk] 'hedge', while the latter has a diphthong: _reyg'_ (<Rehg(')>)
[rE:IG]
> 'row'.
>
> Now, 'row' (_rîğ_ = _reyg'_) ought to be seen as lengthened by the
deletion
> of /-e/.  By itself, the word (_reyge_ >) _reyg'_ is pronounced with a
long
> diphthong (3 beats, _reyge_ /reige/ > _reyg'_ /reeig/), because the
deleted
> short /-e/ left behind one beat, and this beat goes to the remaining
vowel,
> in this case to the main vowel of the diphthong.  If there were a
> monophthong long vowel (which comes with 2 beats), then this vowel would
> also get an extra beat, e.g., _brüyde_ /brüüde/ > _brüyd'_ /brüüüd/
> [bry:.(d)] 'brides' (singular _bruud_ [bru:t]).  If you spell the latter
> <Brüüd> instead of <Brüüd'> -- which unfortunately now happens more often
> than not -- then the learner would logically but wrongly pronounce it
> [bry:t], thus with a long vowel and with final devoicing, as though it
were
> phonemically */brüüd/.
>
> This extra-length in vowels and diphthongs is referred to as _Schleifton_
in
> German terminology, thus cognate of Dutch _sleeptoon_, "dragging tone."
Why
> "tone" in Northern Saxon?  I'm not sure.  But clearly there appears to be
a
> connection between it and tonality in Limburgish.
>
> While it is clear the extra-length is the output of a phonological rule, I
> am not sure if one ought to see it as a still productive rule or as a
> historical rule.  I tend to lean toward the former.
>
> However, it is very important to distinguish phonemic length from
> phonological lengthening.  In LS, pretty much in all dialects, vowels are
> lengthened before liquids (/r/, /l/, /n/, /m/, /N/).  English has this
too,
> before /l/, as in "ball" and "cold".)  This is a case of secondary length,
> of lengthing, not phonemic length; e.g., /bal/ _bal_ [ba.l] 'ball', /hart/
> _hart_ [ha:t] (= [ha..t]) 'heart', /arm/ [?a:m] (= [?a..m]) 'arm',  /man/
> _man_ [ma.n] 'man', /dam/ _kam_ [k_ha.m] 'comb', /draN/ _drang_ [dra.N]
> 'tight', /kold/ _kold_ [k_ho.lt] 'cold'.  Compare this with non-lengthened
> short vowels; e.g., /blad/ _blad_ [blat] 'blade', 'leaf', /kat/ _kat_
> [k_hat] 'cat', /gras/ _gras_ [gras] 'grass'.  Also, compare it with
> phonemically long vowels; e.g., /aal/ _aal_ [?Q:l] 'eel', /baart/ _baart/
> [bQ:3`t] 'beard', /maand/ _maand_ [mQ:nt] (~ [mQ:.nt]) 'moon', 'month',
and
> with extra-length (/daame/ >) /daaam/ [dQ:.m] 'lady', (/neeze/ >) /neeez/
> _nees'_ [ne:.z] (not *[ne:s]) 'nose'.
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Hello Ron !
Give me some time! Possibly I'll take up this subject again when I've got
some more time not as late as tonight to write.
But for now I give You a list of the corresponding sounds.
Changes like lengthening or shortening can only appear inside these groups
of corresponding sounds (diphthongs) never between different groups*.
a - ā - â [a - a: - ´a:`a]
ē - ê [e: - ´e:`e]
e - äe [E - ´E:`E]
ī - î [i: - ´i:`i]
i - ie [I - ´I:`I]
ō - ô [o: - ´o:`o]
o - oe [O - ´O:`O]
ū - û [u: - ´u:`u]
u - ue [U - ´U:`U]
(a) - ó - óe  [ don't know the proper symbol ** å]
ææ - ææe [æ: - ´æ:`æ]
öö - ööe [ø: - ´ø:`ø]
ö - öe [œ - ´œ:`œ]
üü - üüe [y: - ´y:`y]
ü - üe [Y - ´Y:`Y]
au - aue [aU - ´a:U`U]
ai - āj - âj [aI - a:I - ´a:`aI]
äi - äie [æI - ´æ:I`I]
ei - äj - äej [EI - E:I - ´E:`EI]
ōj - ôj
oi - oej
ój - óej
öy - öey [œy - ´œ:y`y]
I hope I didn't forget any.

Some possible changes are:
# In compounds long vowels or diphthongs are shortened.
Some examples: "twäj" = two, 2 / "tweidūsend" = two-thousand, 2000; "bâl" =
ball / "fautbal" = football; "stäien" = stone / "stäingaud" = earthenware.
# Adjectives with a long vowel in neutral position change to extra length in
attributive position.
Some examples: "dat rêw is gaud" / "dat is gaued rêw" = the tools (things)
are good / it are good tools (things); "dat süüekd is läip" / "'t is 'n
läiep süüekd" that illness is bad / it is a bad illness.
# Nouns with extra lengthened vowels have plurals with simple length or
short vowels.
Examples: "kât" = cat / "katten"; "mât" = mat / "matten"; "hêğ" = hedge /
"hēgen"; "rîğ" = row, line / "rīgen"; "röyew" = rape, turnip / "röyven";
"röet" = rat / "rötten".
# Nouns with short vowels (or such of plain length) have plurals with extra
length if the plural consists of one syllable:
example: "hund" = dog / "huen"; "pērd" = horse / "pêer"
* The only exception are cases of "Umlautung" for instance between _a_ and
_ó_ (examples: "gat" = hole / "góten"; "fat" = cup, barrel / "fóten") which
can only occur when a two-syllable word results.

** The short variant only appears in certain positions (for example as
end-vowel of names) and mustn't be marked definitely in orthography. For
this reason I leave the better known _a_ instead of an own symbol (for
example the last _a_ in : Amērīka [@'me:ri.kå])

Kind regards

Holger

---------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Phonology

Thanks, Holger.  Very interesting.  I'll have to digest the material bit by
bit, like you, don't have time for the details right now.

Generally speaking, I am on the same page with you and have made similar
observations regarding other Lowlands Saxon (Low German) dialects.  Before
we delve into the nitty-gritty of things, I wonder if you would reconsider
vowel length on the basis of only two phonemic lengths: short and long, and
all other lengths being phonologically direved, i.e., allophonic.

> # In compounds long vowels or diphthongs are shortened.
> Some examples: "twäj" = two, 2 / "tweidūsend" = two-thousand, 2000; "bâl"
=
> ball / "fautbal" = football; "stäien" = stone / "stäingaud" = earthenware.

It's the same in other dialects.  However, I do not see this as a case of
shortening but of lengthening: "In a syllable with primary stress, a vowel
is lengthened before a sonorant."

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

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