LL-L "Morphology" 2003.08.14 (03) [A/E]

Thu Aug 14 16:40:44 UTC 2003

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From: jannie.lawn at ntlworld.com
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.08.12 (03) [E]

Dear Lowlanders
I have for a while now followed the discussion about doubled words.  Here is
a quote, from R. F. Hahn
'Perhaps there is a common thread among the variations: doubling =
intensifying.'
It may not be quite the same, and it doesn't regard a Lowlands language, but
the following struck me:
We have had Chinese lodgers for several years now.  One 'past' one is called
'Ting Ting', another one 'Ping Ping'.  I asked our current 'Ting' what the
difference is between 'Ting' and 'Ting Ting'.  Apparently doubling the name
is a term of endearment.  She would find it strange if her family or friends
would just call her 'Ting', instead of 'Ting Ting'.  Could this be ralatedd
to the issue being discussed and indicate a general principle?
Groeten, Jannie Lawn-Zijlstra

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From: "Holger Weigelt" <platt at holger-weigelt.de>
Subject: "Morphology"
> In Afrikaans, this repetitive construction is used extensively, also as a>
type of intensifier; e.g., _Kom gou-gou!_ 'Come (quick-quick=) really>
quicky!',
>    'Come right away!'
> _Se hand was koud-koud_ 'Her hand was (cold-cold=) very cold',
>    'Her hand was icy cold.'
> _Ons het 'n groot-groot probleem_ 'We have an (big-big=) enormous
problem.'
> _In vorige eeue is prinse en prinsesse reeds klein-klein vir mekaar
> uitgesoek_
>    'In former centuries, princes and princesses used to be chosen for
>    each other (small-small=) already at a very early childhood age.
> I am not sure what the restrictions are.  My hunch is that it worksmostly
> with monosyllablic adjectives and adverbs, though I seem to remember
reading
> _lekker-lekker_ (very delicious, 'very nice).
>
> Take another look at _koud-koud_ and _groot-groot_.  In English, too,you
> could say things like "He touched me with his cold, cold hand" or "Nowwe
> have a big, big problem."  What you can not do is doubling inpredicatives
> (*"His hand was cold, cold," *"This problem is big, big").
>
> Perhaps there is a common thread among the variations: doubling =
> intensifying.
> Incidentally, intensifying adjectives and adverbs by means of doublingis>
fairly common also in other language groups and families.  ....> Regards,>
Reinhard/RonHello all !
We know such intensifying by doubling also in German and Low Saxon with (G)
"sehr" and "ganz".

Example: Es ist sehr, sehr schlimm = it is very very bad.

Or (LS) "läip". Example: dat is läip läip māl = that is very very bad.

("läip" = adj. bad; adv. very).

In German sometimes You also find doubling of "alles" = all. And people
speaking to little children often say "alle alle" meaning that something is
out, used up etc..

But there is another kind of doubling both in German and Low Saxon taking
different words with (nearly) the same meaning. (G) das ist _ganz besonders_
schwer (LS) dat is _häil läip_ stuer = that is _very !_ difficult.
Regards
Holger

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From: <ezinsser at tiscali.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.08.12 (03) [A]

> Haai daar!
>
> Die voorbeeld soos aangebied: > > _Se hand was koud-koud_
> is nie korrek nie, maar moet "HAAR hand is koud" lees.
>
> Die dubbele vorm 'koud-koud' word selde in dié konteks gebruik. As ek
dit
vinnig moet
> omskrywe, sou ek sê dat die vorme:
> -'n tydsbestek aandui (gou-gou; vinnig-vinnig; nou-nou; kom-kom;
stadig-stadig)
> -'n speelsheid aandui (huisie-huisie; dokter-dokter; klein-klein)
> -ongeduld aandui (so-so; toe-toe; ja-ja; nou-nou)
> -beskrywend is (Hulle het koud-koud daar aangekom; Sy het stil-stil haar
gang gegaan)
>
> Groete,
> Elsie Zinsser

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From: "Ben J. Bloomgren" <godsquad at cox.net>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.08.12 (03) [E]

My Friends,
> >      This would sound completely normally to me in my variety of
> > English.
> > Should someone ask, "How's the weather?"
> > I might say, "Well, it's not COLD cold," with louder voice and
higher
> > pitch
> > for the first instance of the adjective.

I live in the western United States, and I have heard such repetitions
somewhat frequently. Luke Hellinckx described a situation that I see a
lot.
It's not cold cold, but it's kind of cool. In effect, it means, "It is not
extremely cold as if to compare it to Antarctica, but you may want to ring
a jacket to the outdoor event tonight."
It seems to me to be quite informal. I have not heard many people in
broadcasting or in high places use such a construction, but I hear the
populace say it a lot.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Thanks for all the interesting bits of input, folks.  Dankie ook vir die
korreksie, Elsie.

Jannie:

> We have had Chinese lodgers for several years now.
> We 'past' one is called 'Ting Ting', another one 'Ping Ping'.
> I asked our current 'Ting' what the difference is between 'Ting' and 'Ting
Ting'.
> Apparently doubling the name is a term of endearment.
> She would find it strange if her family or friends would just call her
> 'Ting', instead of 'Ting Ting'.  Could this be ralatedd to the issue being
> discussed and indicate a general principle?

I wonder if it falls into the general category of "intensifying."  This sort
of doubling of Chinese names (which is supposed to sound very cute and tends
to be retained more in adult females than in adult males) seems to go back
to baby talk.  It is not unlike doubling in French in terms of endearment
(e.g., _Tintin_) or first name derivations (e.g., Lou-Lou, Frou-Frou), or in
Italian (e.g., Lolo/Lollo).  You may have noticed that zoo pandas tend to be
given such Chinese doubled names.  So are pets in Chinese-speaking
environments.

There is a lot of doubling in baby talk (e.g., in imitation of animal sounds
to denote the actual animal, e.g., "moo-moo" for "cow").  Perhaps the link
is that people tend to say words more than once (thus sort of intensify
words) for babies in order to teach them to speak, and/or it imitates
babies' babble, and this grew into a morphological endearment device.  Just
guessing.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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