LL-L "Perception" 2003.02.06 (09) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: Perception

Ron and Chris,

Yes, I reiterate again that I was playing devil's
advocate and that I actually agree with Chris. But I
think we've raised some very interesting points.

Firstly, like I say, there are a lot of hypocrites out
there - they will 'ram their identity down others'
throats' but not pay like respect for others'
identity. I gave examples of that - indeed, in a place
as identity-conscious as Northern Ireland, I heard the
national soccer team from Ukraine described on local
radio as 'the former Russians'! That is outrageous and
I daresay as a regular citizen-on-the-street I saw to
it that it wasn't repeated!

Secondly, it *is* difficult to decide when it matters.
I credited German speakers with a generally good level
of knowledge on such matters. For example, a few years
ago I read an Austrian article on the forthcoming
soccer match with the Republic of Ireland which
described the latter throughout as 'die Briten' - that
is plain careless, a bit like an Irish article
referring to Austria's team as 'the Germans'! On the
other hand, when German pundits at the last World Cup
saw their team 'only' draw with the Republic of
Ireland and said that it's always difficult against
'britische Gegner' you sorta knew what they meant -
'britisch' was a cultural statement (strengthened by
the fact the entire team plays in the English League),
referring to the nature of the team's play rather than
its nationality.

Thirdly, this brings us to Ron's final point, which is
crucial (and all too often ignored, particularly here
in NI). There is a huge difference between
'nationality' and 'national identity'.

In practice, you learn through travelling how best to
handle it. Typically I will appear to accept
'English', 'British', 'Irish' but make a point almost
immediately of beginning a sentence with 'In Northern
Ireland, where I'm (actually) from...' That way no one
gets offended, anyone know is interested or knows
about the issue can then express that interest, and I
even get away without having to explain exactly what
'Northern Irish' is... for that's another essay in
itself and really depends on the individual!

Of course you also have to bear in mind that different
people get 'irritated' by different things. I would
have no trouble with 'Scotch Egg' or 'Scotch Pancake',
being to me petrified forms, but Chris has every right
to his view. Likewise, I'm sure Cristoir isn't
remotely concerned when he is referred to as just
'Irish'! That's why it's not worth getting rude about
it (as I fear does happen in Scotland, Catalonia and
elsewhere), but it is very much worth stating one's
own opinion and one's own identity (by
self-definition). That's what makes the world go
round!

Cheers,
----------------------
Ian James Parsley
Co Down, Northern Ireland

----------

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language varieties"

> From: Chris Ferguson <shoogly at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.02.05 (05) [E/S]
>
> Here in Scotland it fair gets oor dander up ( annoys us!! ) when people
> refer to us as "Scotch" or our language. It may be an archaic usages -but
> I'd advise anyone coming to Scotland not to use it at all ( even for
> whisky!! ) -as there is little more that will annoy people or get you
> sniggers in return- as people will feel you are ignorant of them and their
> culture!!!

Well, Chris, you can speak for yourself, but I'd opt out of
being considered the sort of person whose dander is so easily
got up! Indeed, I consider myself a fairly mild-mannered
Clark-Kentish sort of person, as long as we're not discussing
the sort of subjects that are traditionally banned in public
places, such as laver bread, or orthography  :)

'Scotch' seems quite a natural development from English
phonological processes, and there doesn't seem to me to be
any sort of geographical or political ignorance involved
in using it. I've heard many Scots-speakers using it, and
a search for the word on ScotsteXt will turn up a considerable
variety of writers who use it in Scots, including some of the
Greats such as Burns and Tannahill.

In Scotland, you may well be corrected by certain individuals
for saying "Scotchmen" or "quaint Scotch customs", but those
same individuals will also correct you for saying "Scots whisky"
or "Scots tomatoes".

It's sax an six!

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

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