LL-L "Perceptions" 2003.02.07 (01) [E]

Fri Feb 7 16:01:31 UTC 2003

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From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Perception" 2003.02.06 (09) [E]

Ian wrote: "There is a huge difference between
'nationality' and 'national identity'... Likewise, I'm sure Cri[o]stoir
isn't remotely concerned when he is referred to as just
'Irish'!"

Because of my (Nottingham) accent, I usually get referred to as "English" -
especially here in Derry - which grates after a while. I see myself as Irish
and Cornish (Cornish mother, Irish father, grew up/lived in Nottingham,
Ireland, Cornwall, Nottingham, Ireland, Australia, Ireland in that order) in
equal measure - binational, if you will. If people call me "just Irish"
that's fine. If people call me "just Cornish" that's fine too. In Australia
I was "a pom" no matter how much I protested...

You're right about the nationality/national identity difference, though. My
wife is an Australian (with an Australian accent) with dual Irish and
Australian citizenship. Yesterday she received her first "go back to your
own country" remark in Derry. She took great relish in retorting that "her
own country" was Ireland and that she had the passport to prove it.

Criostóir.

---------

From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: Perceptions

At 04:32 PM 02/06/03 -0800, you wrote:
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Oh, Ed!  I beg your pardon.

Es macht nichts.  I knew I would hook someone, but I hardly imagined it
would be you.  No need to publish this, since we're pretty far off topic
here.  I just like to challenge some of the more uptight types to loosen up
a bit.

As long as I'm off topic, it is interesting to note that recent information
has disclosed that Canadians actually own just about as many "guns" as
Americans per capita, but with a murder and accidental death rate resulting
from firearms that is less than a 10th (I think).  For example, Toronto,
with a population of around 3 million, only has between 50 and 100 murders
in a busy year.  There's much speculation about why this is, but my own
theory is that while there are cultural differences, I see it as as much of
a regional as national distinction.  Probably the murder rate in Minnesota
or Maine is less than Toronto.

----------

From: Dan Prohaska <daniel at ryan-prohaska.com>
Subject: LL-L "Perceptions" 2003.02.06 (06) [E]

Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada wrote:

>>.....the old definition that a Canadian is really just an
unarmed American with health care.<<

***

R. F. Hahn wrote:

>>I don't know how old this definition is, but as far as I am concerned
it
ought to be laid to rest.  Perpetuating catchy labels of this sort is
hardly
constructive -- and I say this with due respect before our American
subscribers shower us with angry responses.  I most definitely have
problems
with many, if not most, U.S. foreign and domestic policies, and I know
many
U.S. citizens who have similar problems with these.  There is a lot I
admire
about Canada and Canadians.  However, let's be fair!  Last time I
checked,
Canada still had armed forces, and most U.S. residents, though
admittedly
and sadly not all of them, had health insurance, and I see almost as
many
beggars and street people in Vancouver as in Seattle.  While many
Americans
are guilty of ignorance about the rest of the world, many people in the
rest
of the world are as guilty of ignorance about the United States and,
yes,
Canada, and think about them in incredibly simplistic terms, largely
judging
Americans by their government and by European standards, ignoring the
incredible degree of diversity in this country.
Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron<<

Dear Ron Reinhard/Ron and all,

I actually took this as a joke.I think humour is an incredibly important
device of blunting the offending edges in national cliches. This is one
of the (very few) problems I have with
bending-over-backwards-political-correctness: its lack of humour o
ability to exoress it. So a remark like Ed`s, coming from a Canadian, is
very funny, I thought.

Of course most people, especially living in so-called "western"
societies are much more concerned with US domestic and foreign affairs
than vice versa. They hit almost as close to home as for US citizens. We
all watch the same TV programmes, get CNN, the movies, Starbucks,
McDonald`s and all the other food chains, shopping malls etc. We are
very much like extended family, except we don`t get to vote. So of
course Europeans, Canadians Australians and other "Westerners" have a
desire, and often feel entitled to speaking up about certain political
matters. Some will be more knowledgeable about the US than others, but
being a "Wolrd Power" will have outsiders judging life-style, mentality
and politics whether US citizens feel they are entitled to it or not.

Dan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Perceptions

Dan,

Thanks for responding (above).  I understand and appreciate your concerns
and take your points.  As you can see, Ed and I may have our moments once in
a blue moon, but we've always been OK, and we are OK now.  Ed, by the way,
is one of our very "oldest" and certainly most loyal and supportive
subscribers, and I dare say there is a fair bit of trust between us, though
sometimes we surprise each other, as in this case.  There's nothing wrong
with an occasional spark once in a while.  Also, as you can see from his
response above, Ed is quite generous and is definitely not in the
us-against-them mode of thinking.

Admittedly I was a bit over-sensitive, or, more appropriately put in this
context, over-protective.  Why you need to cut me a bit of slack on this is
that I have been the moderator for nearly eight years now and have watched
many a bitter exchange erupt as a result of stereotypical remarks, serious
or jocular, that some people take personal.  I never take my eyes of one of
the major goals of this list: getting people with different backgrounds
together as just people with common interests, not as representatives of
their respective countries or ethnicities.  I am quite pleased and proud of
the fact old rivalries, prejudices and resentments I personally know still
exist are not acted out on this lis, and I would like to keep it that way.
Also, I am aware of stereotypical views about Americans and of worldwide
resentments to U.S. foreign policies, especially in these dangerous times,
and, living in this country, I am keenly aware of predominant American
sensitivities.  As I have said before, poo-pooing "political correctness"
can be and is used as an excuse to do and say whatever the heck antisocial
thing one pleases (as we witnessed not too long ago).  Where do you draw the
line, given that we all know what lurks at the opposite extreme of
"political correctness"?  Humor is great but is also very tricky in an
international gathering, because humor is very much culture-specific and is
not easily translated between languages and cultures, thus is likely to be
misunderstood, especially in expressing sarcasm, unless it is made
abundantly clear.

Enjoy your weekend!

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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