LL-L "Language policies" 2003.02.10 (03) [D/E]

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From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Language politics

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Resources

> 1932 / Marsjantensjtimme
> maršantenštime (Merchants' Voice [?], Marchers' Voice [?])

We use marsjã in my Limburgish for Merchant (Fr. marchant). I guess it is
common in some form to many Belgian dialects. So your first interpretation
seems most probable to me.

> I think it is terrific that you collect and distribute information about
all
those languages of Belgium.  Do you plan on including Romany and "immigrant"
languages as well (e.g., Turkish and Kurdish)?

Thanks.

For me there are two issues involved:
- a political one, and
- a technical one.

1. Politically

When supporting polically "protection of minority languages", does one
focus on indigenous languages only, or on all?

The issue is, some immigrants in Flanders, with "strong" languages, suppose
that indigenous people lay off their own culture and adjust to the superior
cultures, as was French in the past, and as English is becoming. Since this
kind of immigrants generally like Rubens paintings, but think indigenous
languages are some silly thing, they force indigenous people to adjust to
their superior culture. This explains why many people are very much afraid
for getting the European convention signed, since e.g. English immigrants
may force administrative and school languages to be also set-up in English,
ending, considering the strength of these superior language, with "only
English".

I guess similarely, if the Convention is mainly used to protect English
people, against Scots speakers, in Scotland, forcing the Scotsmen to be nice
to the English and talk just plain English with them, the Convention may be
more usefull for the English speakers than it is for the Scots.

Belgium has a long history of international court proceedings, initiated by
French speaking minorities, trying to turn administrative ruling in Northern
Belgium back into French.

So politically there may be some reluctance to focus on "immigrant minority
languages".

2. Technically.

First of all, one needs to know, what one is doing. I mean, one has to
understand what one is putting on one's website.
I hear kids from the Chinese restaurant here in the street talk Cantonese
(?) with their parents. That's just a couple of houses from where I live.
But I don't understand a single word of Cantonese. I guess it would take
several years for learning it, and this just for getting also a page in
Cantonese on my web. I admit it may be very interesting to study how much
second or third generation Cantonese is creolized by the local language. But
verifying this can only done on family by family basis.

A couple of years ago I did a project together with a Moroccan software
engineer, living in a Paris suburb. His native language was Berber. But
there are many Berber varieties in Morocco, and he understands only a few of
them.

3. The newspaper "De Standaard" of today, has some data about immigration.
I include some excerpts in annex.

Regards,

Roger

ANNEX: quoted from:
De Standaard, Feb 10, 2003, bijlage: "België blootgelegd, Bevolking":

Meest voorkomende "vreemde" nationaliteiten:

Italianen: 195.586
Fransen:109.322
Marokkanen:106.822
Nederlanders: 88.813
Turken 56.172
Spanjaarden: 45.356
Duitsers: 34.579
Britten:26.600
Portugezen: 25.634
Grieken: 17.954

"Vreemde" bevolking per gewest
Brussels hoofdstedelijk gewest 1998: 279.810 / 2002: 260.040
Vlaams Gewest: 1998: 288.007 / 2002: 275.223
Waals Gewest: 1998: 335.303 / 2002: 311.471

[comment: the total number is decreasing, mainly through:
 - naturalization
 - no more coached immigration by the industry because of need for
workforce]

"Total" population (Jan 1th 2002 + increase v/ Jan 1th 2001)

België:  10.309.725 + 0.45%

Brussels Gewest: 978.384 + 1.45%
Vlaams Gewest: 5.972.781 +0.34%
Waals Gewest: 3.358.560 + 0.36%

Top towns (population 2002):
Antwerpen   448.709
Gent  226.220
Charleroi  200.578
Luik  185.131
Brussel 136.730 (1)
Brugge 116.836
Schaarbeek 107.736 (1)
Namen  105.393
Bergen  90.955
Anderlecht  90.134 (1)

-- comments of mine:

Brussel, Schaarbeek & Anderlecht are part of the Brussels agglomeration.
Since the 19 municipalties of the "Brussels Gewest", forming one single
agglomeration, refused to take part in the big municipal merger operation of
1975, data of single municipalities in this region do not represent a
sociological meaning. Here one should refer rather to "Brussels Gewest"
above.

Most known for incidental racial incidents are Anderlecht (suburb Kuregem),
Schaarbeek and some parts of Antwerp (mainly the suburb Borgerhout, called
"Borgerocco" by some.)

Known for (peacefull) immigrant concentrations are: the "Matongo" area in
Brussels (Congolese), the area South of the Antwerp Central railway station
(East European Jewish), and some smaller concentrations as e.g. Antwerp
Chinatown.

Dutch and German immigration is strong along the borders.
English immigration is very strong in the suburbs at the South-East of
Brussels (Tervuren, Overijse, Waterloo, ..)

Italian presence (since +- 1950), as well as Polish/Hungarian (since
1955-1958) presence in the coal mine area's, is less visible, due to
cultural absorption. For the Italian presence in Limburg one sees
incidentally imitation on TV about the way they pronounce Dutch (combining
Italian pronounciation with Limburgish singing). Polish Hungarian immigrants
from the cold war are just detectable by their names, otherwise completely
integrated.

Quit visible (Major towns as Brussels, Ghent, Antwerp, ..; and the mining
area's as e.g. Beringen, Heusden, ..;) is the presence of moslem immigrants
(since the seventies, mainly from Turkey and Morocco). When there are
incidents reported in the newspaper, it basically is with this group.
Actually young people from this group have a hard time to find jobs, because
of many prejudices. They have been frequently associated unfairly with
crime.

When one looks at the actual crime patterns though, the main concern
nowadays is crime committed by East-Europeans, supposed to be controlled by
the Russian maffia. People involved come just for a couple of days, return
to the East, and then target an other country in the West. Main targets are
jeweler's shops. Recent moral issues concerned sympathy for a West-Flemish
jeweller (condemned in court) who shot a Polish thief in the back.

----------

From: Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc. <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
Subject: Language politics / addendum

----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Thijs, Euro-Support, Inc." <roger.thijs at euro-support.be>
To: <LOWLANDS-L at LISTSERV.LINGUISTLIST.ORG>
> 2. Technically.
>
> First of all, one needs to know, what one is doing. I mean, one has to
> understand what one is putting on one's website.

Part of my message was lost due to inproper pasting and saving.

Additionally to point 2, I would say:

- a - When one searches for material, it needs to fit in the context, in my
case, the Belgian one.

Considering e.g. the English immigrants.
- There is plenty of English literature, so putting "something" in English
on a website is not very difficult.
- Finding "Belgian English" is more difficult, but still feasable:
e.g. the songs of the Brussels Englishman "Mister John" with e.g.
"Potverdekke, It's great to be a Belgian".

For some immigrant groups though, it is difficult to find literary "Belgian"
products.
When looking in local history literature, one finds e.g. excerpts in Italian
from Italian newspapers about accidents in the Belgian coal mines. This
refers to Belgium, it is pasted in Belgian local history books, but it does
not reflect an "Belgo"-Italian "language" culture. I have contacts with
quite some Italians. Their parents do not talk standard Italian but a
dialect of the South or Sicily. There are no written Belgian records of this
variety, for as far as I know..

Obviously some famous people stayed in Belgium for a brief while, and did
some writing here, as Karl Marx, Victor Hugo. I would not exclude taking
some exerpts touching the Belgian environment, but Karl Marx is not my
primary focus.

- b - It is difficult to approach some groups.

Here in Mortsel, the municipality reserved some land (with sanitary
provisions) for gipsies, staying there for a few days. The land is squeezed
between a railway line, the run-in grass of Antwerp airport and an old
fortification. One can enter this land, not pass trough since it is
enclosed, and eventually come out.

Nice is that they did something for the gipsies over here. For social
contacts it is not appropriate though.

Regards,

Roger

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language policies

Thanks, Roger.

I did not have in mind truly temporary and illegal residents but sizeable,
long-standing and, for all intents and purposes, permanent immigrant
communities.  For example, Turkish people in Germany are for the most part
technically temporary residents, but they have lived there since the 1960s,
include German-born and primarily German-educated children and grandchildren
and in many cases German spouses, have a sizeable community-specific media
and business network, and, no matter what xenophobic pipedreams and
vilification plots there might be floating around, they ain't goin' noplace
(the German-born and -raised ones among them feeling alien and being treated
as such in their ancestral homeland).  Various Carribean and South Asian
language communities in the United Kingdom would be another example, one of
long-standing immigrants from former colonies, thus possibly Lingala- and
Munukutuba-speaking communities in Belgium if there are any (left).

I hope you are getting my drift.

Cheers!
Reinhard/Ron

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