LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.02.15 (04) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 15.FEB.2003 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 http://www.lowlands-l.net  * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8
 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm
 Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
 Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
=======================================================================
 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or
 sign off at <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.02.12 (04) [E]

Andrew wrote:
>
>I was intrigued by another subscriber's sig line regarding Shetlandic, so I
>went to his web site to find out more about this language/dialect.  Is it
>basically a more-or-less archaic form of Scots with a Norn substratum, or
is
>it considered a language in its own right?

These are not mutually exclusive - the continental Scandinavian languages
are basically dialects of each other, but are also languages in their own
right. However, if you look in the A Tait Wanchancie part of my website, you
will find an article precisely on the subject of whether Shetlandic is a
language or a dialect.

  In either case, does it fit into
>the charter of this list?

I think that's one for Ron to answer.

 I was especially interested in the apparent use
>of the verb "tae be" to form the present perfect tense, as opposed to
"have"
>in English.  Supposedly, more archaic forms of Scots have the same
>construction.

Older forms of Scots used the verb 'to be' to form the perfect tense only in
certain verbs, such as 'come'. See Ian Parsley's version of the verse under
the Orthography thread, where he uses 'is cam' rather than 'haes come'.
Shetlandic, on the other hand, uses this construction with all verbs.

  Is that due to the Norse influence?

It's not easy to see how this could be the case, as Old Norse also used its
form of the verb 'to have' to form the perfect tense, with exceptions
similar to those of older Scots.

 In my experience, with
>the exception of English, most Lowlands languages use "to be" to form the
>present perfect of verbs of motion and certain other verbs, and "to have"
to
>form the present perfect for all other verbs.

Exactly true of Old Norse (as far as I can remember) and older Scots.
>
>Apparently the verbal construction applies to Orcadian, but there is
>significantly less information available about it on the web.
>
>In any case, I was curious about the status of these "dialects".  Also, is
>there any effort being put forth to preserve them?  Based on the
information
>that I HAVE read, they are in danger of being overrun by English.

Shetlandic is rapidly dying out - many of the younger generation, even in
country areas, and even those who are always spoken to in Shetlandic by
their parents, are growing up speaking only standard English. Again there is
an article in my A Tait Wanchancie section - written in Scots, because it
was originally published in Lallans magazine - which explains more about
this. There are many reasons for this - incomers, TV, play groups, etc. -
but especially the apathy of Shetlanders themselves, and the fact that even
those who are most enthusiastic about Shetlandic consider that it should be
confined to the traditional uses of speech and occasional literature, and
banished from formal writing. Most efforts to 'preserve' Shetlandic (only
dead things have to be 'preserved') consist of encouraging 'creative
writing' and speech - in other words, efforts to recreate the past rather
than develop for the future. I have mostly given up writing in Shetlandic,
as I do not see the point in contributing occasional poems to magazines
which will not publish articles which I write in the same language.

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varieties

Andrew, John Magnus, Lowlanders,

Discussions about Norn are perfectly fine as long as relevance to Shetlandic
is maintained.  Any aspects of non-Lowlandic varieties may be discussed if
this is relevant to Lowlandic.  This includes both contacts or substrates
(as in the case of Norn and Shetlandic) or language features (examples,
similarities, contrasts, etc.) that help us to deal more successfully with
theoretical or conceptual problems in the Lowlands area.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

==================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================