LL-L "Language learning" 2003.02.16 (12) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2003.02.16 (02) [E]

11:04 16-2-2003 -0800, Lowlands-L:
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>(2) In Standard Dutch, short /a/ has a back articulartion and long
/aa/ has
>a mid-to-front articulation, which is totally counter-intuitive and
>difficult to replicate for speakers of LS and German where it is
the other
>way around, for speakers of English similarly.

And Swedish and many many Dutch accents and dialects (Amsterdam,
Utrecht, Antwerpen, Achterhoek). But you are right about the
standard language. Native speakers of Hungarian must have an easier
time trying this, although they'd exaggerate it, and end up sounding
"plat Rotterdams of Haags".

--
http://rudhar.com

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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Language learning" 2003.02.16 (08) [E]

11:42 16-2-2003 -0800, Lowlands-L:
>Another thing that I've noticed about Dutch is that is has many
>different dialects which vary quite a lot from each other.

I think as a foreign learner it's best to completely ignore any
dialects, as they only complicate matters. That is unless you are
interested in them, because interesting they certainly are.
I think except in some parts of the Netherlands, and more parts of
Belgium, dialects aren't very much alive anymore. For a foreign
learner, some knowledge of the standard language should suffice to
be able to communicate.

>One last thing that I have noticed about Dutch, or at least Belgium
>Dutch, is that the "r" seems to be needed to be rolled at the tip of
>the tongue rather than the back of the throat like I do in German.

Both are valid and native pronunciations, in both countries. The
actual phonetics of the r, regarding postion in the word, region,
age, and personal variations, are very very complicated. As a
foreign learner, I think you should adopt a pronunciation that is
close enough to one of the many native styles, and which is easiest
for you, and ignore the actual complexity.

>It's quite hard to master rolling on the tongue.... or at least it is
>for me.

That's difficult for very many native speakers too. And for others
it's not. Don't worry about it.

--
http://rudhar.com

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language learning

Ruud (above):

> 11:42 16-2-2003 -0800, Lowlands-L:
> >Another thing that I've noticed about Dutch is that is has many
> >different dialects which vary quite a lot from each other

It was Michael Arnold <marmanold at mac.com> who wrote that.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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From: Alannah Stepa <astepa at shaw.ca>
Subject: Frank Verhoft's request for information

I sent a personal reply to Frank indicating that I had gone to work in
Holland many years ago and I did not have a big problem learning the
language as so many of the words are similar to English with changes to
spelling and pronunciation. They also use many French words and I had
studied that in school.
Some phrases I never really understood the translation of nor the use of
them in different situations.
The main problem myself, and other English people had was with phone numbers
because of the formatting of the numbers in pairs, not our standardized 3
and 4 groupings.
The ij letter in words is a more logical use in many words such as ijs, mij,
dijk than the English forms, ice, my, dyke.

The Japanese have problems with articles and prepositions as they do not
exist in the Japanese language. For the past five years we have had Japanese
college students living with us and I spent 2 years tutoring university
English to another Japanese boy.
TOEFL, (Test of English as a Foreign Language) is written in American, not
Canadian, so for school here, in Canada, they have to use the English
spelling but to write the exam they have to learn American.
They have some problems learning "English" because our word processors are
formatted to American not "English" and when they type in a correct English
spelling their computer will indicate a spelling error.

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