LL-L "Names" 2003.02.19 (05) [E/LS/V]

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From: Eldo Neufeld <greneuf at interchange.ubc.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Literary usage" 2003.02.14 (09) [E/LS/V]

>From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
>Subject: Bach
>
>(E below)
>V:
>Beste Lowlandmoat'n van ol over de weireld,
>
>Verled'n weke zaote'k een letje uut te rust'n en waore'k an't
>luustervink'n naor  oesne nationaole  radiozender. Der was juste een
>sko^¥n liedje an de gang van Bach. En 'k peisde kik bie min eig'n
>zichzelvers dat ter dao entwat niet en klopte. Olles wuk da'k van Bach
>tot nu toe g'ho^¥rd ei zijn oltid Ho^¥g-Duutse versies. 't Dochte mie
>pertank dat diene Bach toch skreef vo minsen die in't Lowlands bezig
>waor'n.
>Is ter dao iemand van  juldre die kan verklapp'n ao't er ge^n echt
>originele stiksjes bestaon van Bach in't Neder-Duuts?'t Zou mie stif
>verblien om ne ke^ Bach 't ho^¥r'n lik of dat ie hem dat zelve zoe
>gewild ein. Zou t er nievers een cd'tje bestaon me'  zuk ne muziek up?
>'t Waore 't ho^¥r'n weird.
>
>Tot ton
>Luc Vanbrabant
>Oekene
>
>E:
>Last week, when I was  having a litle nap, I was listening to one of
>our radiostations. They played a beautifull song written by Bach. All
>of a sudden I realised that someting was not correct. Every time I
>hear songs  of Bach they are in High-German. And I always thaught that
>Bach wrote  his songs in Plat-Deutch! Is there any one  on the list who
>knows if one can find  recorded music of Bach in his native
>tongue?Every piece of art should be appreciated in his original version.
>
>Luc
>
>----------
>
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Literary usage
>
>[English below]
>
>Beste Luc,
>
>So wied ik daar wat vun afw^§ten do, harr Johann Sebastian Bach offitschell
>niks mit de neddersassische (nedderd^º^ºtsche, plattd^º^ºtsche) Spraak to
doon
>hat.  He is 1685 in Eisenach boorn un daar upwussen bit he 15 Jahr old was.
>Eisenach is in Th^ºringen, in d'Äôn S^ºden vun D^º^ºtschland.  Ja, in 'Äôt
>Jahr 1700
>is he as Chors^§nger un later as Organist vun de franz^^ssche Musikschool
na
>L^^nborg trocken, in 'Äôt vundagigendaagsche Neddersassen, nich wied af
vun
>Hamborg.  He harr ook Kontakten mit d'Äôn hamborger Organist Johan Adam
>Reinken, de schients Hollandsch as Moderspraak harr, un vun em lehr he dat
>Orgelsp^§len un 'Äìkumpeneren up nedderlandsche un ingelsche Aard.  He
>bleev'Äô
>man bloots so ^ºm un bi twee Jahren in L^^nborg.  He trock tr^ºgg na
>Th^ºringen, in de Stadt Arnstadt.  Vun daar g^ºng he (200 Mielen to Foot!)
na
>L^ºbeck in d'Äôn Noorden, an de Oostsee, wiel dat he wat vun d'Äôn
>noordd^º^ºtsch-d^§^§nschen Kumpenist Diedrich Buxtehude aflehren wull.
Later
>trock he wedder na tr^ºgg na S^ºden, na Th^ºringen un Sassen.  Das Land
Sassen
>hett niks mit de (nedder-) sassische Spraak to do, hett bloots d^º^ºtsche
>Dialekten un kreeg den Naam 'ÄûSachsen'Äú man bloots vun 'Äôn Hertog, de
>uut 'Äôt
>wahre Sassenland (in d'Äôn Noorden) keem.  To Bach sien Tied keken de
>'Äûfeinen'Äú
>L^º^ºd'Äô de neddersassische Spraak al minnachtig an, un in de 'Äûfeine'Äú
>Musik
>harr se keen Platz, ook nich mang de noordd^º^ºtschen Kumpenisten, so as
>Buxtehude un Telemann.
>
>Kiek: http://odur.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/diversen/bach/map.html
>
>Gr^tens,
>
>Reinhard/Ron
>
>Dear Luc.
>
>As far as I know, Johann Sebastian Bach had officially nothing to do with
>Lowlands Saxon (Low German).  He was born in 1685 in Eisenach and grew up
>there till age 15.  Eisenach is in Thuringia, in Southern Germany.  True
'Äì
>in 1700 he moved to Lunenburg (L^ºneburg) as a choir singer and later as
>organist of the French music school, and Lunenburg is in the area of
today'Äôs
>Lower Saxony, not far south of Hamburg.  He also had contacts with the
>organist Johan Adam Reinken in Hamburg, who appears to have been a native
>Dutch speaker, and he studied Dutch and English organ playing and composing
>with him.  He stayed in Lunenburg for only about two years.  He moved back
>to Thuringia, to the city of Arnstadt.  From there he walked (200 miles!)
>north to L^ºbeck on the Baltic Sea, because he wanted to study the music of
>the North-German-Danish composer Diedrich Buxtehude.  Later he moved back
>south, to Thuringia and Saxony.  The state of Saxony has nothing to do with
>the (Low) Saxon language, has only German dialects and got the name
> 'ÄúSachsen'Äù because of a duke from the actual Saxon land in the north.
In
>the days of Bach, upper-class people already scorned the Lowlands Saxon
>language, and there was no place for it in 'Äúgood'Äù music, not in that of
>northern composers like Buxtehude and Telemann either.
>
>See: http://odur.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/diversen/bach/map.html
>
>Regards,
>
>Reinhard/Ron
>
Ron, you do mean Lüneburg instead of Lunenburg, don't you?  In the early
1960s I studied German at the Goethe Institute in Lüneburg, and frequently
visited the church in which Johann Sebastian was supposed to have sung in
the choir.  At that time the church that claimed him was a little bit
hesitant in insisting on the authenticity of the story, possibly because it
couldn't give the exact dates of his tenure there.  It is by now generally
accepted, though, that he was there in his fairly early youth.

Aulet baste,

Eldo Neufeld

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

Goondach, leewe Eldo!

> Ron, you do mean Lüneburg instead of Lunenburg, don't you?

I do indeed.  Though this appears to be a little-known fact in North
America, Lunenburg is the traditional, official English name for German
Lüneburg (LS _Löönborg_).  There are other such cases; e.g.,

E. Aix-de-Chapelle = G. Aachen, L./Ripuarian O(o)che
E. Hanover = G./LS Hannover
E. Hamelin/Hamlin - G./LS Hameln
E. Brunswick = G. Braunschweig, LS Bru(u)nswig
E. Munich = G. München
E. Frankford = G. Frankfurt
E. Vienna = G. Wien
E. Cologne = G. Köln, Rip. Kölle, D. Keulen
E. Saxony = G. Sachsen
E. Lower Saxony = G. Niedersachsen, LS Neddersassen
E. Bavaria = G. Bayern
E. Lake Constance = G. Bodensee
E. Hesse = G. Hessen
E. Nuremberg = G. Nürnberg
E. Pomerania = G./LS Pommern
E. Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania = G. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern,
   LS Mäkelborg-Vörpommern)
E. North Rhine-Westphalia = G. Nordrhein-Westfalen
E. Rhineland-Palatinate = G. Rheinland-Pfalz
E. Thuringia = G. Thüringen

I have found Frankford used only in British sources, and it may be falling
into disuse.  Brunswick and Aix-de-Chapelle seem to be primarily British
also.  Americans did not understand them when I used them.

I hope you had a good time in Lunenburg.  It's a pretty city with a lot of
interesting sites, originally the home of Slavonian-speaking
Draveno-Polabians.

Aulet Baste,
Reinhard/Ron

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