LL-L "Literary usage" 2003.02.19 (08) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Literary usage" 2003.02.14 (09) [E/LS/V]

> From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
> Subject: Bach
>
> (E below)
> V:
> Beste Lowlandmoat'n van ol over de weireld,
>
> Verled'n weke zaote'k een letje uut te rust'n en waore'k an't
> luustervink'n naor  oesne nationaole  radiozender. Der was juste een
> skoôn liedje an de gang van Bach. En 'k peisde kik bie min eig'n
> zichzelvers dat ter dao entwat niet en klopte. Olles wuk da'k van Bach
> tot nu toe g'hoôrd ei zijn oltid Hoôg-Duutse versies. 't Dochte mie
> pertank dat diene Bach toch skreef vo minsen die in't Lowlands bezig
> waor'n.
> Is ter dao iemand van  juldre die kan verklapp'n ao't er geên echt
> originele stiksjes bestaon van Bach in't Neder-Duuts?'t Zou mie stif
> verblien om ne keê Bach 't hoôr'n lik of dat ie hem dat zelve zoe
> gewild ein. Zou t er nievers een cd'tje bestaon me'  zuk ne muziek up?
> 't Waore 't hoôr'n weird.
>
> Tot ton
> Luc Vanbrabant
> Oekene
>
> E:
> Last week, when I was  having a litle nap, I was listening to one of
> our radiostations. They played a beautifull song written by Bach. All
> of a sudden I realised that someting was not correct. Every time I
> hear songs  of Bach they are in High-German. And I always thaught that
> Bach wrote  his songs in Plat-Deutch! Is there any one  on the list who
> knows if one can find  recorded music of Bach in his native
> tongue?Every piece of art should be appreciated in his original
> version.
>
> Luc
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Literary usage
>
> [English below]
>
> Beste Luc,
>
> So wied ik daar wat vun afwäten do, harr Johann Sebastian Bach
> offitschell
> niks mit de neddersassische (nedderdüütsche, plattdüütsche) Spraak to
> doon
> hat.  He is 1685 in Eisenach boorn un daar upwussen bit he 15 Jahr old
> was.
> Eisenach is in Thüringen, in d’n Süden vun Düütschland.  Ja, in ’t
> Jahr 1700
> is he as Chorsänger un later as Organist vun de franzöössche
> Musikschool na
> Löönborg trocken, in ’t vundagigendaagsche Neddersassen, nich wied af
> vun
> Hamborg.  He harr ook Kontakten mit d’n hamborger Organist Johan Adam
> Reinken, de schients Hollandsch as Moderspraak harr, un vun em lehr he
> dat
> Orgelspälen un –kumpeneren up nedderlandsche un ingelsche Aard.  He
> bleev’
> man bloots so üm un bi twee Jahren in Löönborg.  He trock trügg na
> Thüringen, in de Stadt Arnstadt.  Vun daar güng he (200 Mielen to
> Foot!) na
> Lübeck in d’n Noorden, an de Oostsee, wiel dat he wat vun d’n
> noorddüütsch-däänschen Kumpenist Diedrich Buxtehude aflehren wull.
> Later
> trock he wedder na trügg na Süden, na Thüringen un Sassen.  Das Land
> Sassen
> hett niks mit de (nedder-) sassische Spraak to do, hett bloots düütsche
> Dialekten un kreeg den Naam „Sachsen“ man bloots vun ’n Hertog, de uut
> ’t
> wahre Sassenland (in d’n Noorden) keem.  To Bach sien Tied keken de
> „feinen“
> Lüüd’ de neddersassische Spraak al minnachtig an, un in de „feine“
> Musik
> harr se keen Platz, ook nich mang de noorddüütschen Kumpenisten, so as
> Buxtehude un Telemann.
>
> Kiek: http://odur.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/diversen/bach/map.html
>
> Grötens,
>
> Reinhard/Ron
>

> Dear Luc.
>
> As far as I know, Johann Sebastian Bach had officially nothing to do
> with
> Lowlands Saxon (Low German).  He was born in 1685 in Eisenach and grew
> up
> there till age 15.  Eisenach is in Thuringia, in Southern Germany.
> True –
> in 1700 he moved to Lunenburg (Lüneburg) as a choir singer and later as
> organist of the French music school, and Lunenburg is in the area of
> today’s
> Lower Saxony, not far south of Hamburg.  He also had contacts with the
> organist Johan Adam Reinken in Hamburg, who appears to have been a
> native
> Dutch speaker, and he studied Dutch and English organ playing and
> composing
> with him.  He stayed in Lunenburg for only about two years.  He moved
> back
> to Thuringia, to the city of Arnstadt.  From there he walked (200
> miles!)
> north to Lübeck on the Baltic Sea, because he wanted to study the
> music of
> the North-German-Danish composer Diedrich Buxtehude.  Later he moved
> back
> south, to Thuringia and Saxony.  The state of Saxony has nothing to do
> with
> the (Low) Saxon language, has only German dialects and got the name
>  “Sachsen” because of a duke from the actual Saxon land in the north.
> In
> the days of Bach, upper-class people already scorned the Lowlands Saxon
> language, and there was no place for it in “good” music, not in that of
> northern composers like Buxtehude and Telemann either.
>
> See: http://odur.let.rug.nl/Linguistics/diversen/bach/map.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Reinhard/Ron
>
Thanks Ron for the  quick respons on my question.
I do remark that he stayed a very long time of his life in Leipzig. Was
that not a region where  they spoke  Low German?
I did some questioning, and people say it on the Flemish radio as well
that  the original music (the songs) were written in Low German ,
stating that the sound must have been more gentle than the sometimes
"harder" High German. So i think it needs to be examined  more closely.

Greetings
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Literary texts

Hi again, Luc!

Well, if it is true that Bach wrote music for "Low German," I will concede
and will be more than keen to find out all about it.  In that case I would
be one unhappy camper, though, about having been deceived all these years
with translations from "Low German" into "High" German and Latin.  Whatever
they meant in that radio program, it's the first time I've heard anything
about it, and I have read several books about Bach and have a gezillion CDs
with oratiorial works of his.

Leipzig (Sorbian Lipsk) is a West Slavonic name based on the word _lipa_
'limetree', 'linden-tree'.  The city is in the German state of Saxony
(Sachsen), which, as mentioned earlier, really doesn't have anything to do
with Saxons and the Saxon language (an unfortunate choice that has lead to
unfortunate name "compromises" in the north).  With the exception of Sorbian
in the east of the state, all language varieties are German, "Central
German" in the north and some sort of Upper German (related to Thuringian)
in the south.  The southern Lowlands Saxon ("Low German") language boundary
is a bit north of the northern border of Saxony, in Saxony-Anhalt.

One of the striking and, in the German-speaking area unique, phonological
features of these "Saxon" German dialects of Saxony is round back vowel
centralization (/o/ -> [ɵ]), /u/ -> [ʉ] {as in many Swedish dialects}, but
otherwise eastern-style /ö/ -> [e] and /ü/ -> [i]).

However, it is true that there are kinds of "platt" German dialects of
Saxony in contrast to "high" (standard-approximant) German dialects, not to
be confused with "platt" in reference to LS.  For example, "platt" Saxony
German for 'tree' (Standard German _Baum_ [baÊ m]) is _Boom_ [bɵ:m] versus
Standard-approximant _Baum_ [ba.ʉm] or [bæ.ʉm] (cf. Northern Lowlands Saxon
_Boom_ [bo.Ê m] or [beoÊ m]).

It is generally believed that at Bach's time an older version of the
Standard-approximant variety was considered exemplary German, especially
that of the city of Meissen (Meißen), an important city of Saxony next to
Leipzig and Dresden (Sorbian  Drježdźany). People from the surrounding area
and farther afield would try to approximate that type of speech, and
apparently this led to the formation of the name _Missingsch_
("Meissen-ish"), then denoting "good German," now denoting "poor German on
Lowlands Saxon substrate" in Northern Germany.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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