LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.22 (06) [D/E/L/LS/German/Russian]

Sat Feb 22 20:30:22 UTC 2003

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From: Peter Meylof <p.meylof at planet.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.21 (08) [D/E/LS]

Moi Mathieu,

Ik bin it nit heelmoal met oe eens. It ferskil tusken Drentsch en
GrÃ¶nnings is groter dan tusken Drentsch en Twentsch. Ik hoal dit oet
ervaring in het sprekn met leu oet beaje provincies. GrÃ¶nnings en it
Stellingwerfs, heurt noar mien mening tot de Noordsaksische groop.
Nogmoals, dat is dan mien beskeidn mening.

Ik bin it met Ron eens, dat it Twentsch in de ofgeloopn decennia
'verhollaandst' is.

Loaglaanders, loat 's heurn hoo at oeleu hieroawer deankt! Ik bin doar
knap newskierig noar.

Goodgoan,

Peter

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From: Ian James Parsley <parsleyij at yahoo.com>
Subject: Orthography

Elsie and John M.,

I agree that dictionaries are far from perfect, and
particularly that they are often outdated (typically
by about 20 years, I reckon, particularly on
colloquial items).

However, if *every* dictionary (from different
publishers) from 1948 to 2003 agrees that a certain
spelling, there's a fair chance there are people alive
who are using that spelling (as I am). Even then, it
is still fair to suggest that other sources are
required as well (I would add things such as NI Civil
Service documents and Hansard, some London broadsheets
etc).

On _analyze_ vs. _analyse_, that's a good point. I
wouldn't insist on that being consistent with
_civilize_/_civilise_ etc when editing, although I
would note it. There is a further awkward point about
whether an 'established' word such as _realise_ could
be followed consistently in the same text by a
spelling such as _Americanize_ - where the _-ize_ is
more a 'suffix' than part of the root word. Likewise,
my suggestion there is to question it, rather than
mark it 'wrong' as such. But I must say guidance on
that varies.

Ian James Parsley.

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From: John M. Tait <jmtait at wirhoose.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Orthography" 2003.02.21 (08) [D/E/LS]

Criostoir (whose name I've forgotten how to spell since it now comes across
as incomprehensible two-byte hieroglyphics) wrote:

>An indignant reader argued that /paed/ is closer to the original Greek
vowel
>and that if "paedophile" was changed, so too should "paediatric". Another
>reader countered that following that contention would necessitate the
>re-spelling of hundreds of words, such as "anaemia" and "haemophilia". The
>debate ended in a no-score draw.

'Paedophile' may be _nearer_ the Greek, but it is already Latinised. If you
wanted to follow the Greek, it should be 'paidophile'.

John M. Tait.

http://www.wirhoose.co.uk

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From: Chris Pilkington <cm_pilkington at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject:

Dear All,

If I may 'unlurk myself' and ask for Ron's forgiveness
if I do anything wrong first time!

I am more interested in the cultural side of Lowlands
affairs, but couldn't help noticing the British
English spelling debate.

It appears Criostoir disputes the spelling _judgment_
is acceptable in British English. Criostoir does not
provide any supporting evidence for this claim, yet
accuses Ian of 'enforcing his view'. Actually Ian is
putting the view of professional writers, editors and
lexicographers (whose views on the subject surely
count more than one individual's) which appear in
every major UK dictionary since at least 1948. The
fact is that the job of dictionary editors is, by
definition, to reflect 'convention'. Does Criostoir
think he knows more about 'convention' that people who
put their life's work into these dictionaries?

However, in case that has not convinced you, I would
have thought the editors of the UK Parliament's
Hansard would know a thing or two about 'correct' or
'conventional' British English - it seems they are
quite happy with _judgment-...

www.parliament.the-stationary-office.co.uk/pa/ld199899/ldjudgmt/jd990624/sun
.htm

www.parliament.the
stationary-office.co.uk/pa/ld199899/ldjudgmt/jd990324/pinol.htm

And just in case you are prepared to accept nothing
but the Guardian's editorial principles, even it
accepts _judgment_...

www.guardian.co.uk/theissues/article/0,6512,529850,00.html

In fact, Co-operation Ireland's editorial guidelines
accept *only* _judgment_. So every UK dictionary, the
UK parliamentary report, the Guardian and an
all-Ireland organisation can all accept _judgment_.

That is the evidence in favour of _judgment_ as a
perfectly 'correct', 'acceptable' and 'conventional'
British English spelling.

Sorry Criostoir, but your contention that _judgment_
is not 'allowable' or 'conventional' is simply wrong.
This is not a personal assault on you, only on your
argument, because it is fundamentally flawed. Apart
from sweeping and often inaccurate generalisms you
have not produced a shred of evidence to support your
case, whereas there is plenty to support Ian's.

I would respectfully suggest that this list includes
many language learners, such as myself, and we need to
be as sure as we can that the information we receive
on spelling conventions and usage is accurate.

Yours,

Chris Pilkington

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <admin at lowlands-l.net>
Subject: Orthography

Chris,

Welcome to the List!  I'm happy you, too, have decided to come forward from
out of the backdrop.

You did fine.  If next time you will use a subject line (the appropriate)
one, I'd call it "masterful".  You are not alone there.  Many "older"
participants are still not getting it.  This is what it says in the Rules
(http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm):

English:
If you start an entirely new discussion, you are welcome to create your own
subject title. The administrator may or may not adopt that title. (The more
general the title is the better is the chance that he/she will adopt it;
otherwise he/she will generalize it.) If you respond or add to previous
postings in an already existing subject line, please use the already
existing title of that discussion thread as your subject heading. For
instance, if the current title is "Language varieties" and you respond to
what someone wrote about vowels in Flemish dialects, don't choose something
like "Long o and u in the dialects of Southern Flanders and speech habits of
young Belgians" as your subject heading; stick to "Language varieties," if
you like it or not. This facilitates sorting submissions at the
administrative end. If the administrator feels that the discussion has
changed or a new discussion has branched off an existing one, it is the
his/her job to give it a new title.

Dutch:
Indien u een nieuwe discussie bent begonnen, kunt u uw eigen onderwerptitel
bedenken. De beheerder kan deze titel echter wel wijzigen, omdat titels zo
algemeen mogelijk dienen te zijn. Als u antwoordt op andermans bericht,
houdt u dan aan de bestaande titel ("subject line"). Bijvoorbeeld; is de
huidige titel "Language varieties" en u antwoordt op wat iemand heeft
geschreven over klinkers in Vlaams dialect, kies dan geen titel zoals "Long
o and u in the dialects of Southern Flanders and speech habits of young
Belgians". Houdt het dan maar op "Language varieties", ook als u dat niets
vindt. Dit maakt het beheren van de lijst namelijk makkelijker. Als de
beheerder ziet dat de discussie is veranderd of dat een nieuwe discussie is
ontstaan, is het aan de beheerder om de nieuwe titel te geven.

Limburgish:
Went geer ein gans nuuj diskussie aanvink, maogt geer eur eige
Ã³ngerwerptittel bedinke. De eigenaer kin aevel waal de tittel verangere (wie
algemeiner de tittel, wie baeter). Went geer antwaort op angermans berich,
haud uch den aan de besjtaonde tittel ("subject line"). Bieveurbild, wen de
huijige tittel is 'Language varieties' en geer antwoard op get waat emes
hauw gesjreve euver klinkers in Vlaams dialek, kees den neet zoe get wie
'Long o and u in the dialects of Southern Flanders and speech habits of
young Belgians' es berichtittel; haud uch aan 'Language varieties', ouch
went geer 't neet gevilt. Dit maak 't gemekkeliker veur de adminnesjtrasie
van de lies. Wen de eigenaer zuut det de diskussie is verangerd of det ein
nuuj diskussie is Ã³ntsjtange, is 't aan hÃ¤Ã¶m/hÃ¤Ã¶r 't ein nuuj tittel de
gaeve.

Northern Lowlands Saxon:
Wenn â€™n mit â€™n neje Saak anfangt, denn drÃ¶ff â€™n driest sien egenen
ThÃ¤matitel (â€žsubject titleâ€œ) maken. Dat is denn man bloots â€™n Voerslag. Kann
wÃ¤sen, dat de Verwalter em annimmt; kann ook wesen, dat he de neje
Diskusschoon â€™n annern Titel gifft. Wo allgemener â€™n Titel is wo bÃ¤ter is de
Schangs, dat de Verwalter em annimmt; wenn nich, denn maakt he em
allgemener. Wenn â€™n â€™n Reaktschoon up wat schrifft, wat al Ã¼nner â€™n
bestimmten Titel ruutkamen is, denn schull â€™n bi dÃ¼ssen Titel blieven. Wenn,
to dâ€™n Biespill, de Titel â€žLanguage varietiesâ€œ (â€žSpraakvariantenâ€œ) is, un â€™n
hett daar wat bitobottern, wat â€™n anner Liddmaat oever SÃ¼lvstluden in
flaamsche Dialekten schrÃ¤ven harr, denn schull â€™n keen Titel so as â€žLong o
and u in the dialects of Southern Flanders and speech habits of young
Belgiansâ€œ (â€žLang o un u in de Dialekten vun SÃ¼Ã¼dflannern un de
Spraakwennsten vun junge Belgiersâ€œ) bruken. Nee. Een schull bi dâ€™n Titel (in
dÃ¼sse Fall â€žLanguage varietiesâ€œ) blieven, ook denn, wenn â€™n dat nich so
recht to Pass kÃ¼mmt. Wenn â€™n bi dâ€™n Titel blifft, denn kann de Verwalter de
BiedrÃ¤Ã¤gâ€™ lichtfardiger sorteren. Wenn de Verwalter meent, dat Thema is â€™n
nejen Padd langsgahn, denn is dat sien egene Saak dat â€™n nee ThÃ¤ma to gÃ¤ven.

German:
Wenn man eine vÃ¶llig neue Diskussion anfÃ¤ngt, darf man gern dem Verwalter
einen Thementitel vorschlagen. (Je allgemeiner und kÃ¼rzer ein Titel ist, je
besser ist die Chance, dass er angenommen wird.) Wenn man sich auf etwas
bezieht, das unter einem bereits bestehenden Titel erschien, soll man bei
seiner Bezugnahme bei diesem Titel bleiben. Wenn der Titel beispielsweise
â€žLanguage varietiesâ€œ lautet und man zu etwas Stellung nimmt, das jemand Ã¼ber
Selbstlaute in flÃ¤mischen Mundarten geschrieben hat, so sollte man dies
nicht unter einem neuen Titel wie â€žLong o and u in the dialects of Southern
Flanders and speech habits of young Belgiansâ€œ tun sondern sollte bei
â€žLanguage varietiesâ€œ bleiben, selbst wenn es einem widerstebt. Dies
erleichtert dem Verwalter das Sortieren der Einsendungen. Sollte der
Verwalter der Meinung sein, dass sich das Thema geÃ¤ndert hat, so ist es
seine Sache einen neuen Titel zu suchen.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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