LL-L "Lexicon" 2003.01.12 (03) [E]

Sun Jan 12 20:29:41 UTC 2003

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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject:  LL-L "Names" 2003.01.09 (05) [E/Germany]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> John,
>
> I don't have Bob's book within easy reach this week and am wondering
> what
> the meaning of this _Snickelfritz_ is.  I don't use it and don't know
> it.
>
> _Nixnutz_ 'ne'er-do-well', 'useless person', is German, not Lowlands
> Saxon
> ("Low German"), probably Berlin Missingsch (German on LS substrate),
> though
> now widely used (besides the Standard German version _Nichtsnutz_).
> Since
> LS did not participate in the shifts /t/ > /ts/ and /t/ > /s/, the word
> would be *_Nixnutt_ if it existed (German _nutzen_ ~ _nützen_ = LS
> _nutten_
> ~ _nütten_ 'to use', also G _Wasser_ = LS _Water_ 'water').
>
Dear Ron,
In Dutch and Flemish we use the word "nietsnut" quiet often.

Groetjes
Luc Vanbrabant
Oekene

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Lexicon

Me:

> _Nixnutz_ 'ne'er-do-well', 'useless person', is German, not Lowlands
> Saxon
> ("Low German"), probably Berlin Missingsch (German on LS substrate),
> though
> now widely used (besides the Standard German version _Nichtsnutz_).
> Since
> LS did not participate in the shifts /t/ > /ts/ and /t/ > /s/, the word
> would be *_Nixnutt_ if it existed (German _nutzen_ ~ _nützen_ = LS
> _nutten_
> ~ _nütten_ 'to use', also G _Wasser_ = LS _Water_ 'water').

Luc (above):

> Dear Ron,
> In Dutch and Flemish we use the word "nietsnut" quiet often.

Interesting! I looked through various Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
dictionaries and found no mention of this theoretical cognate *_Nixnutt_ ~
*_Niksnutt_.  Depending on the dialect and the context, German _Nichtsnutz_,
_Taugenichts_ and _Tunichtgut_ (basically "useless person" or "person that
does all (especially pranks) but useful things," oftentimes simply "rascal,"
"prankster" or non-American "cheeky b*gger," or worse: "despicable,
dishonest person") tends to have the Northern LS equivalents _Dammelbüx_
['daml=bYks] ("silly pants"), _Sleev_ ~ _Sleef_ [slEIf] ~ _Sleiv_ ~ _Sleif_
[slaIf] (literally "wooden ladle"), _Slenter_ ['slE.nt3`] (related to
_slendern_ ~ _slennern_ 'to amble', 'to stroll'?), _Doegnix_ ~ _Doegniks_
['dø:CnIks] ~ ['dœ:CnIks] ("worth-nothing"), _Sloot_ [slo:t] ~ [sloUt]
("chimney"), _mallen Düvel_ [ma.ln 'dy:vl=] ("crazy devil"), _losen Vagel_
[lo:zn= 'fQ:gl=] ("loose bird"), _Ulensaat_ ['?u:lnsQ:t] ("owl('s) seed"),
_Slöpendriever_ ['slœIpm=dri:v3`] ~ ['slOIpm=dri:v3`] ("tideflats drag-sled
driver/roamer"), _Rietenspliet_ ['ri:tn=spli:t] ("tear 'n split"), _Flöten_
['flœItn=] ~ [flOItn=] (< _Flööt_ 'silly talk'?), and _Undoegt_ ['?U.ndø:Ct]
~ ['?U.ndœ:Ct] ("bad behavior," "nonsense," "tomfoolery").

However, one of the related adjectives/adverbs is _unütt_ ['?U.nYt]
("useless").  (I assume that _Nutt_ and _...nütt_ are related to English
'need'.)

In the meantime I found _Snickelfritz_ in Bob Stockman's glossary*, giving
the following glosses: German _Spassvogel_ and English 'rascal'.
(* Robert Lee Stockman, _Platt Düütsch/Low German: A brief history of the
people and language_, Alto, MI: Platt Düütsch Press, 1998, ISBN
0-9665502-0-X)

The meaning of _Snickelfritz_ thus is quite different from that of _Snoesel_
I mentioned earlier, the latter denoting a cocky young male.

Under "Delectables" today, Gabriele Kahn mentioned:

> Another confusing topic; where I come from (Southern Lower Saxony, between
> the Harz mountains and the river Weser), this type of bread is called
> "Semmel" - which is what rolls (Brötchen, Rundstücke) are called in
Southern
> Germany.

Gabriele, given the geographic reference, I assume that the dialects of your
native area are Eastphalian (located south and southeast of North Saxon,
east of Westphalian, and west of and in a continuum with the dialects of
Brandenburg and Saxony-Anhalt).  Is that correct?  To us in the north, those
dialects seem more "German" in several ways.  Especially in and around the
Harz Mountains the dialects are strongly influenced by South and
Southeastern German dialects due to a medieval mining boom that attracted
workers from the mountainous areas of the south (e.g., Bavaria and
Thuringia).

Or are you talking only about _Semmel_ (wich I associate with the south of
Germany) used in the *German* dialect of your area?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

----------

From: Jacobus Le Grange <legrangej at ananzi.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.01.07 (04) [E]

Hello all

John Rodenburg wrote and Ron responded as follows:
>
> From: JRodenburg at aol.com <JRodenburg at aol.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Etymology"
>
> Dear List,
>
> In a manuscript my mother wrote, she use the word "knust"
> as in crust of
> bread. I don't find this in my Hochdeutsch dictionaries.
> Could this be
> Plattdeutsch as they spoke it extensively at home (in
> Oklahoma!)? Thank you
> for your help.
>
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Illinois
> John Rodenburg
>
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
>
> Moin, John!
>
> _Knust_ [knu:st] 'heel of a bread loaf', 'crusty end of a
> bread loaf' seems
> to be a Lowlands Saxon (Low German) loan in northern
> dialects of German,
> including Missingsch (German dialects on LS substrates).
>
> LS has _Knuust_ [knu:st], masculine, plural _Knüüst_
> [kny:st] (< Knüüste).
> Its meanings are as follows:
> 1. elevation, hump, lump, protrusion
> 2. Island of Fehmarn (in dialects of
> Sleswig-Hulsteen/Schleswig-Holstein)
> 3. (crusty) heel of a bread loaf
> 4. crusty, excentric old person
>
> _Knust_ [knu:st] 'heel of a bread loaf', 'crusty end of a
> bread loaf'
> certainly is a part of my German vocabulary, but I have
> noticed that some
> people from Central and Southern Germany do not
> understand it.  (I am not
> sure what they say instead.)
>
> This word appears to be a cognate of Dutch _knuist_
> 'fist'.  I don't know of
> the LS dialects if the Netherlands use presumed *_knoest_
> [knu:st] in the
> sense of 'fist' or in the sense of any of the
> aforementioned.
>
> In Northern LS of Germany, 'fist' is _Fuust_ [fu:st] (cf.
> Dutch _vuist_ and
> Afrikaans _vuis_).  A tight fist (e.g., ready to box) is
> _Knuttfuust_
> ['knUtfu:st] or _Knüttfuust_ ['knYtfu:st] ("knit fist"),
> and the verb
> _knuttfuusten_ ['knUtfu:stn=] or _knüttfuusten_
> ['knYtfu:stn=] means 'to
> make a tight fist'.
>
> Grötens!
> Reinhard/Ron
>
> I would like to just add that in Afrikaans "knuis" plural
"knuiste" is used meaning fist, clutch or grasp. An
expression "in die knuiste te kry " means to get hold of or
get into one's clutches.

John le Grange

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