LL-L "Etymology" 2003.01.22 (07) [E/S]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
 L O W L A N D S - L * 22.JAN.2003 (07) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
 http://www.lowlands-l.net * admin at lowlands-l.net * Encoding: Unicode UTF-8
 Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm
 Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
 Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
 Archive: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
=======================================================================
 You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
 To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
 text from the same account to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or
 sign off at <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
=======================================================================
 A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
 L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
 S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: Criostoir O Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.01.22 (04) [E]

Marcel wrote:

"We know that this shift came from the south of England, which corresponds
with the fact that from about the year 450 Frisians settled mainly in Kent,
East Anglia and Lincolnshire; the south."

Just a small correction (or contention) - Lincolnshire isn't in the
(geographical or cultural) South of England. It's in the Midlands.

Don't worry. They don't like being called northerners either, as far as I
know.

Go raibh maith agat,

Criostóir.

----------

From: Colin Wilson <lcwilson at btinternet.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.01.22 (04) [E]

>Andy Eagle wrote:
>
>>Whaur dis this  _hedge_ vs. _heck_  come fae?

Marcel Bas replied:

>We know that this shift came from the south of England, which corresponds
>with the fact that from about the year 450 Frisians settled mainly in Kent,
>East Anglia and Lincolnshire; the south.

I think that Marcel Bas must have missed the point of Andy Eagle's
question, which concerned the specific example of _hedge_ vs. _heck_ .

There is a Scots word _heck_, and it has several meanings, but
"hedge" isn't one of them.

Guidwull tae awbodie,

Colin Wilson.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Now, Scots _hedge_ and _heck_ do not have the same meaning, do they?  Going
by Wir Andy's Dictionar (http://www.scots-online.org/dictionary/), _hedge_
means 'hedge' (a division made from live plant material) while _heck_ means
'rack', 'slatted wooden or iron framework'.

Lowlands Saxon (Low German) has the following nouns, both _Heck_:

(1) Heck (feminine or neuter, plural _Hecken_) 'hedge' (>?) 'fence made from
sundry dead wood' (>?) 'fence made from wooden slats' (>?) 'fence made from
metal' (>?) 'iron framework' (cf. German _Hecke_ [feminine] 'hedge')

(2) Heck (neuter, plural _Hecks_) 'board at the back of a boat or ship' >
'rear (of a boat)', 'stern', 'poop' (> German _Heck_ [neuter] 'id.')

There are dialects in which both (1) and (2) have neuter gender, and there
are dialects in which (1) is feminine and (2) is neuter.  In either case,
they have different plural forms.

Cf. Dutch _heg_ (~ _hegge_, feminine?) 'hedge' vs. _hek_ (neuter) 'fencing
made from wood or metal', 'stern', 'poop'.

I have a feeling that the gender difference is significant here.  Please
note that Middle English has _hegge_ (actually _heğğe_), _egge_, _eigge_,
_hedge_, _heche_, _hege_ (actually _heğe_) and _heig_.  Old English has both
_hecg_ and _hecge_, and I do not know if there was a difference between them
other than an orthographic one, though it is obvious that both have a
palatalized /g/, thus seem to come from an earlier form *_hegge_ or *_hagge_
(< *_haggo_ (neuter?) or *_hagga_ (feminine?)?).

This group of words is believed to be akin to Old English _haga_ 'hedge',
'haw(thorn)', which is related to Lowlands Saxon _Haag_ ~ _Hagen_ 'grove',
'hedge' (masculine, plural _Hääg'_ ~ _Hagens_, cf. Dutch _haag_),
_Haagdo(o)rn_ (< _Hagedo(o)rn_) 'hawthorn' and _Haagbudd(e)_  (< _Hagebudde_
"haw-bud") 'rosehip'; cf. Swedish _hage_ 'grove', 'garden', 'pasture',
'paddock', Norwegian _hage_ 'garden', Danish _have_ 'garden', Modern and Old
Icelandic _hagi_ (/hag+i/) 'pasture'.

Unfortunately, I do not have most of my etymological sources within easy
reach right now but wonder if this little bit is some food for thought in
the interim.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

P.S.: The Lowlands Saxon idiomatic expression _to Heck kamen_ ("to come to
_Heck_") means something like 'to manage', 'to succeed' (i.e., "to reach
one's goal").  I am not sure which _Heck_ it is in this case, because the
expression omits the article (_de_ masc./fem. vs. _dat_ ~ _'t_ neuter).

==================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to <lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org>.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to <listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org> or at
  <http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html>.
 =======================================================================