LL-L "Language survival" 2003.07.12 (03) [E/LS/V]

[Lowlands-L]

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 12.JUL.2003 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * lowlands-l at lowlands-l.net
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm
Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
Encoding: Unicode (UTF-8) [Please switch your view mode to it.]
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Ze굷s)
=======================================================================

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language survival

Dear Lowlanders,

Our worthy Belgian friend Frijâ (a.k.a. Frijâ de Edele Vrouwe van des
Haegghediessen Olligabeiasdocher, Galla en Presterinn in dienst an Onwe
beminde Nehellenia Olligabeia) requested that I provide translations of two
Lowlands Saxon (Low German) postings, one by Fiete (Friedrich W. Neumann)
and one by yours truly, both in response to her postings in Flemish.  I
decided to do so in English, in part because this is easier for me and in
part because, for better or for worse, it will reach a larger number of you.
I am happy to oblige, in part because Frijâ implied that it would help her
learn (to read) Lowlands Saxon.  Hopefully it will help others among you,
and hopefully it will fill some gaps in the string of communication (though
it will not fill the gaps on which our friend Gabriele seems to have her
little eyes).

Fiete had objected to Frijâ’s characterization of the closing of the Sorbian
Middle School "Jurij Chěžka" in Chrósćicy/Crostwitz, Saxony, Germany, as
racist with reference to Germany’s fascist past:

> Nun mool jümmer sinnig mit de juongen Peer!
>
> Datt is heel schood, wat soo 'n School dichtmookt waardt.
> Dat liggt man allmend ne an de Nazis, or gänzlich hett dat watt mit
> "Tüchten" tau kriig 'n! Ne in Düütschland, miin beste Frija!
> De Tiiden hefft wii haart, DAT Regelwarks hefft wi leihrt!
>
> In 'n Geeigendoom: disse "ethnischen Minnerheeiden" hefft 'n heel Bült
> Vöördeeil'n un' sünnerte Privileegien. Is reell gaud sau.
>
> Ick weeit in Oogenblick ne, wovööl Sorben dat geeven geiht- man:
> Plattdüütsche gifft dat 'n heel Bült meeihr;  von 'n plattdütsche School
> heff ick amend no' nix höört.
>
> Watt Jii Vlaamens Jau jümmer sau oppreegen, enkascheer' n mööt -:)!
> Hett obers ook watt!
>
> Kumpelmenten
>
> Fiete.

<Translation>

[“Now easy does it with the young horses!” =] Wow! Easy now!

It’s really a shame such a school is being closed.
However, it’s got nothing to do with the Nazis but everything with
education! Not in Germany, dearest Frija!
Those times are done with.  THAT lesson we’ve learned!

On the contrary: these “ethnic minorities” enjoy a bunch of advantages and
special privileges.  That’s just fine.

Right now I don’t know how many Sorbs there are, but:
There are a lot more Low Germans, and I haven’t heard anything about a Low
German school so far.

What must you Flemings always get your knickers in a twist like that :) !
Well, it has its good points too.

Compliments,
Fiete.

</Translation>

I responded thusly:

> Above, Fiete argues that minorities in Germany enjoy several special
> privileges, that Lowlands Saxon (Low German) speakers have no special
> schools, while some people complain that Sorbian schools are being
> abolished.
>
> After the demise of the Hanseatic League, Lowlands Saxon lost its power
> language status and came to be cast into the depth of "German dialect"
> status under German domination.  This prepared the way for gradual
> abolition of the language and resulted in the loss of separate ethnic
> Saxon awareness, thus in German integration.  This was facilitated by
> the fact that German and Lowlands Saxon are close relatives (just as
> Scots and English are close relatives and Scots therefore tends to be
> characterised as English "dialect".)  Most LS-speaking children somehow
> managed when they were thrown into German-only schools (just like
> Scots-speaking children manage when they are thrown into English-only
> schools.)  For this reason, the mere suggestion of the possibility of
> establishing Lowlands Saxon schools would have been considered anywhere
> between ludicrous and seditious.  On the contrary, use of the language
> was prohibited in German schools, and children were punished for using
> it.  (It was briefly permitted within the framework of _Heimatkunde_ in
> my school years and eventually fell victim to the first budget cut.)
>
> The Sorbs (Lusatians), however, do not use a language that you can sell
> as a German dialect group.  Their language varieties are Western
> Slavonic, the last remnants of the many Slavonic varieties once spoken
> in what now is Germany, and the closest relatives of Polish, Kashubian,
> Slovincian, Czech and Slovak.  Sorbs (formerly referred to as "Wends")
> have *always* been considered linguistically and ethnically separate
> from Germans, including Lowlands Saxon speakers.  How could they not
> be?  Sorbian language and culture are a part of Germany's heritage, not
> some sort of foreign introduction.  Today's Sorbs are German by
> nationality/citizenship, but they are Sorbian by ethnicity -- most of
> them proundly so, and why should they not be?  There are also many
> ethnic Sorbs who no longer know their ancestral language.  As I
> mentioned in a previous posting, Sorbian used to be used in a much
> larger area.  The loss of the language in most areas, as in that of my
> maternal grandmother, was due to a mixture of oppression, prohibition,
> denigration and encouraged neglect, and this came primarily from ethnic
> Germans and to some degree from those wannabe-German Sorbs who had been
> indoctrinated to hold their own heritage in low esteem.  As a result of
> a Sorbian renaissance and resurgence in the 19th century (concurrent
> with the Lowlands Saxon resurgence wave), this downhill slide was slowed
> down by means of educational measures, first and foremost by providing a
> place for Sorbian in schooling and eventually Sorbian schools.  Sorbian
> schools were safeguarded and enjoyed popularity even among non-Sorbs
> under the East German government.  (Quite a few ethnic German parents
> sent their children to Sorbian schools to give them a foreign language
> advantage and to facilitate mandatory Russian studies, just like many
> parents in Germany's extreme north elect to send their children to
> Danish schools in Germany and Denmark.)
>
> So Fiete may be argued to be technically correct in rejecting Frijâ's
> allegation of "racist" sentiments.  However, Frijâ's viewpoint might
> teach us something about the way this affair may be perceived by the
> world outside Germany, rightly or wrongly.  Let us not forget that
> Germany's Sorbs were not exactly on Hitler's good list, that their
> language, their publications and their schools came to be prohibited
> during the Nazi period, that Sorbian leaders were jailed, interned in
> concentration camps and murdered, and that the future of the Sorbian
> people was anything but promising at the time.  We thought we had come a
> long way since then, but ...
>
> Sorbian language and culture enjoyed a measure of protection under the
> East German regime, even if much of it was mostly for show.  So, Fiete,
> can you then be surprised if people perceive it as "racist" or whatever
> "...ist" if not too many years after the fall of the wall Sorbian
> schools once again find themselves on the chopping block?  Let us not
> forget that Hitler and his buddies represented merely the extreme of a
> view that has always been strong and continues to be strong in Europe,
> albeit hidden behind politically correct talk: "diversity unwanted!"
>
> "Not granting" is one thing; "taking away" is another thing.
>
> Perhaps the argument should be in favor of Lowlands Saxon schools, not
> in favor of abolishing Sorbian schools.
>
> Aside from allegations of racism, I personally agree with Frijâ's
> characterization of the latest affront against Sorbian rights
> "criminal," and I hope many other people, including people outside
> Germany, will sock it to those responsible, and sock it to them goood
> ...
>
> Božemje!
> Reinhard/Ron

Frijâ responded (in Flemish):

> Beste Fiet.
>      Dank gie voôr jen briev en oôk vele dank an onze goed man
> Reinhard.   Ie is nen vorst, end oôk wou ikke dqnk 'em voô dade'ier
> forum.
>      Dank gie voôr jen briev en oôk vele dank an onze goed man
> Reinhard.   Ie is nen vorst, end oôk wou ikke dqnk 'em voô dade'ier
> forum.
>
>      Na vele poging met Duuts en Nederlan's woertrboekn kon ikke j'n
> briev het verstaon'n, oôk
> dank an heer Reinhardt.  Men ikke kon einlig de zew'nliek ervan
> verstaon'n.   Kunt ge mie en copie op hoôg Duuts of Nederlan's of even
> Ingels?
>
>      Ikke aonem jen vreindeliek kritiek over m'n briev misskien 't
> v'rwiezing an de Nazi's was te
> sterk.  Men in Vlaander'n dank qn de Nazi's en qndere oôrlog'n  hebb'n
> wie velle aong'born
> spreeker'n v'rliez'n, en vo dade daor rede ben ikke zo sterk met mie
> taol.
>
> Met haorteliekste groet'n,
> Jens,
> Frijâ

<Translation>

Dear Fiete,

Thank you for your letter, and also many thanks to our good man Reinhard.
He is a prince, and I would furthermore like to give thanks for this forum.

Following many attempts with German and Dutch dictionaries I was able to und
erstand your letter, thanks also to Mr. Reinhardt <sp>.  But I was able to
understand only the gist of it. <?>  Could you provide a copy in High German
or Dutch or just English?

Judging by your kind critique of my letter I gather that my reference to the
Nazis was too strong.  However, due to the Nazis and other wars, we have
lost many native speakers in Flanders, and for this reason I feel so
strongly about my language.

With kindest regards,
Yours,
Frijâ

</Translation>

I responded in Lowlands Saxon with a few inserted Dutch glosses:

> Beste Frijâ,
>
> > Dank gie voôr jen briev en oôk vele dank an onze goed man Reinhard.
> > Ie is nen vorst, end oôk wou ikke dqnk 'em voô dade'ier forum.
>
> Vun harten dank vör dey lovenen wöyrd' [woorden].  Man Jy schullen nich
> vergeten, dat in düt forum aan [zonder] dat mitdoun [de deelname] vun
> leyve lüyd' so as Du niks slumpen [gelukken, slagen] kun.
>
> Dat is my elk maal 'n groot pleseyr Dyn schöyn Vlaamsch tou lesen.  Ik
> dank Dy, dat Du as vörbild vörangayst [vooropgaat], wat dat schryven in
> al dey mööglichen Leyglandschen dialekten angayt [betreft].
>
> Ik weet Dy ook groten dank vör Dyn afryten [inspanning], wat dey Sorben
> anbelangt.
>
> Hold an [by] Dyn spraak vast, un hold Dy vuchtig [gezond, monter]!
>
> Mit hartliche gröyten,
> Reinhard/Ron

<Translation>

Dear Frijâ,

> Thank you for your letter, and also many thanks to our good man Reinhard.
> He is a prince, and I would furthermore like to give thanks for this
forum.

My heartfelt thanks for your words of praise.  However, you should not
forget that nothing would be possible without the participation of good
folks such as you.

I always take great pleasure in reading your beautiful Flemish.  Thank you
for serving as an example with regard to communicating in the various
Lowlands dialects.

Furthermore, I am grateful to you for standing up for the Sorbs.

Hang on to your language, and take good care of yourself!

With kind regards,
Reinhard/Ron

</Translation>

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================