LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.06.06 (02) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 06.JUN.2003 (02) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Kristoff Bonne <kristoff.bonne at compaqnet.be>
Subject: LL-L "Celtic connections" 2003.05.30 (04) [E]

Gegroet,

First of all. I'm sorry for the late reply.

> L O W L A N D S - L * 30.MAY.2003 (04) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
(...)
> From: Gavin.Falconer at gmx.net
> Subject: LL-L "Songs" 2003.05.30 (01) [E]

> I'm sure there will be other answers to this, but here goes.
> Breton is a P-Celtic or Brythonic language related to Welsh.  They are
> both
> descended from British, the language spoken in most of Britain before
> the
(...)

> Those who conquered England in 1066 were not Breton but Norman, so
> called
> because they were the descendants of Norsemen, though they had adopted
> the
> local form of French before they conquered the English.

OK. I didn't know the posting-rules in this NG where so strickt; so I
don't know if this will pass the filter.

Some follow-up questions:

- Exactly where did these Normans come from? What language did they
speak? I guess some north-germanic language.
Is there something left of that languege in that in the languages now
spoken in Normandy or England.

- And, what I've always wondered about this. Can somebody explain me why
somebody who has invaded a foreign country successfully would then
completely give up your own language and take up the language of your
neighbours.
Or did they try to 'forget' the Norseman background for some reason?

I always thought that the "intermix" of languages where more-or-less
"controlled" by the economic and social position; that the people with
the "lowest" economic, social or political situation took over the
language of the 'stronger' group.

(At least, that was always explained to me why the germanic tribes who
where conquered by the Romans started to use Latin, why there is so many
influence of french into english; or why the current-day influence of
english in the world).

So, back to the Normans.

When you invade another country; and do so succezssfully; you're clearly
in the stronger economic/social position vis-a-vis the people who lived
there before.
So. why give up your language?

After all; when, three centuries later, these same people invaded
England; we DO see that the language of the new rulers (french) had a
very real influence on the language of those who where invaded
(english).

> "Wovon man nicht reden kann, dar?ber muss man
> schweigen."
Or ask experts to explain it to you. ;-)

CHeerio! Kr. Bonne.

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language varietes

Gegroet, Kristoff!

> OK. I didn't know the posting-rules in this NG where so strickt;
> so I don't know if this will pass the filter.

As you can see, you did fine.  I would not exactly characterize the
rules as strict.  The basic rule is that a discussion thread (not
necessarily a single posting) must focus on or have relevance to
Lowlands languages and cultures.  Norman French strongly influenced the
development of English and Scots, and English and Scots are part of
Lowlandic, so your questions have definite relevance.

> - And, what I've always wondered about this. Can somebody explain me
> why
> somebody who has invaded a foreign country successfully would then
> completely give up your own language and take up the language of your
> neighbours.
> Or did they try to 'forget' the Norseman background for some reason?

I think this has something to do with numbers and "civilization."  A
group or nation that is very sucessful in warfare, i.e., usurping
territories, does not necessarily have the upper hand culturally and
technologically, may eventually assimilate linguistically and culturally
to the conquered nation while (at least in the beginning) maintaining
its officially separate ethnic status that makes them the ruling elite
by descent.

A clearcut example of this is that of the Manchu (who spoke a Tungusic,
thus Altaic, language) invading China and being the official elite
throughout the Qing (Ch'ing) dynasty, the last imperial period of China
(1644-1911).  They came to adopt Chinese language and culture, even
though top leadership roles were exclusively Manchu.  The Manchu elite
would wear Manchu-based clothing, and they would learn some Manchu, at
least to read it.  All official documents had to be composed in both
Chinese and Manchu, and there was a push toward creating Manchu versions
of famous Chinese literary works (which are of great importance to
today's Chinese literary studies).  However, Manchu had become a foreign
language to virtually everyone, and all that translating work was mostly
for show, symbolic for Manchu rule.  Very few speakers of Manchu
remained; the last ones lived in some remote villages and died sometime
in the early 20th century.  The Manchu still remain an officially
separate ethnic group in China today, but at best they learn Manchu as a
dead, purely written language.  However, garrisons of Manchu military
elite forces had been established in Xinjiang (Sinkiang, Eastern
Turkestan), a Chinese-ruled part of Central Asia.  The descendants of
these military persons, having intermingled with other ethnic groups
(mostly Han, Turkic and Mongolic), continued using and developing forms
for Manchu, known as Sibe, that are quite distinct from Manchu but can
nevertheless be considered surviving forms of Manchu.  These people are
now an officially separate ethnic group in China, known as "Sibe" (or
"Xibo").

Another case is that of Swedish Viking rule over much of what now are
Russia and Ukraine.  Their name "Rus" (cf., Finnish _Ruotsa_ 'Sweden')
came to be used for the Russian people.  The Swedes came to be absorbed
into the Slavonic-speaking population.  Their language left its marks in
Eastern Slavonic but disappeared in that region.  All that remains
besides archaological sites and historical accounts are linguistic
traces and names, such as Oleg (< Helge) and Ol'ga (< Helga).

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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