LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.04 (09) [D/E/German]

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Grammar" 2003.03.04 (07) [E/German]

At 12:08 PM 03/04/03 -0800, Gabriele wrote:

  Thanks a lot, Ed. I am as "learned" as they come, but I also have a sense
of
  humour.

I knew that would come out wrong.  I mean more specifically, other more
learned types like yourself, not others more learned than yourself.


  From: Gary Taylor <gary_taylor_98 at yahoo.com>
  Subject: Grammar
  I've just had a quick look through an Old and Middle
  English reader and couldn't find any examples of 'me'
  being used in the subject position when in combination
  with another pronoun. Also from Sandy's examples from
  Shakespeare there didn't seem to be any occurances.

  Maybe it's a modern development in Britain, which has
  occured since the language on your side of the pond
  had already developed a norm - possibly via Scots from
  Gaelic (? maybe someone could give examples from
  earlier Scots texts ?) If it has thus developed then
  it's been fairly well established throughout the land,
  including the London area, for a long time. 'My wife
  and I' sounds affected to me. I think I said before
  that my mother used to correct me, but "me 'n' me
  sister" still use this form. I should imagine that in
  a couple of generations it could well be an accepted
  form even in editorial circles.

Well, my suspicion would be that the development was there in Shakespeare's
time, but was perhaps much less common, especially in Shakespeare's
linguistic area and perhaps there were social or political reasons for him
not using it.  I also think that the use may be now far more widespread and
generally acceptable in Great Britain than it is in North America.  A
language in transition, indeed.

Ed Alexander

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Grammar
Gary wrote/schreeven:
"I've just had a quick look through an Old and Middle
English reader and couldn't find any examples of 'me'
being used in the subject position when in combination
with another pronoun. Also from Sandy's examples from
Shakespeare there didn't seem to be any occurances.

"Ich habe gerade durch ein Lesebuch für Alt- und
Mittelenglische Literatur geblättert und könnte keinen
Beispiele von 'me' als Subjekt finden."

What about the Dutch-Zeelandic influence on Nottingham English, where we
have _mi waaif en mie_ (my wife and me)? Dutch-Zeelandic seems to have had
(at least) a superstratic influence on Nottingham English. Constructions
that don't agree with Shakespeare might originate there.

Now in a very poor attempt at Dutch (only 'learnt' this Christmas so go easy
on me):
Nu ik schreev in een klein bietje van Nederlands ('Kerstnederlands', ik ben
sorry):

Wat van die Nederlands-Zeeuws invloed op Nottingham Engels, waar daar is _mi
waaif en mie_ (mijn vrouwin en mee)? Nederlands-Zeeuws hebben een
'superstratic' invloed op Nottingham Engels ik denk - zie N. Engels _sen_ en
Zeeuws _selven_ (spreekt _sen_). Engels woordformen dat ga gegen Shakespeare
mag kom van dat.

Go raibh maith agaibh/dankje

Criostóir.


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