LL-L "Names" 2003.03.12 (03) [E/LS]

[Lowlands-L]

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
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From: Friedrich-Wilhelm Neumann <Friedrich-Wilhelm.Neumann at epost.de>
Subject: LL-L "Help needed" 2003.03.11 (02) [E/LS]

Moin, Ron, un' aal anner Lüü' un' Lowlanders,

Du schreevst:
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Help needed
>
> [English below]
>
> Leve Lüüd’,
>    Weet eyn mang Ju, wou dey ourd „Sprötze“ up Neddersassisch
> (Nedderdüytsch/Platdüytsch) heytt?  Dat is nu ’n deyl vun Boukholt in dey
> Noordhaid’ (Buchholz in der Nordheide), Neddersassen (Niedersachsen),
> Düytschland.  (Ik giss maal *„Sprütt“.)
>    In ’t vöruut bedankt.
>    Reinhard/Ron
>
> Folks,
>    Does any of you know what the Lowlands Saxon (Low German) name for
> “Sprötze” (“Sproetze”) is?  It is now a part of Buchholz in der Nordheide
> (Boukholt in de Noordheid’), Lower Saxony, Germany.  (For now my guess is
*
> “Sprütt.”)
>    Thanks in anticipation.
>    Reinhard/Ron

["my" English below]

Joo- ick haar ook "gisst", watt dat tauh *Sprütt* waard- mann, de beiden
enkelden, plattdüütschen "Heidjers" in miin Noobershipp meenen "Sprööt".
Door mööt wi uns woll an haul 'n.

Door blangen bii: mit Oordsnoom 'n hett datt siin heel eeigen Bewandtnis.
Dat hett mennigmool hin- un' trüch goon mang 't Hauchdüütsche un
Plattdüütsche.

Biispeel 'n:

"[Bad] Bederkesa" heeit opp Platt "Beerst", kompleet oon Sinn, as dat in
A.D. 1159 grünn 't wonnen is von 'n Oodelichen *Marcward de Bederkesa*.

"Bützfleth" (bii Stade, anne Elv), schall von wegen dat "z" 'n wendisch'
Oorsprong hebben. Dumm Tüüg- datt heeit woll nix anners as "de Fleeth [UG:
Vorfluter, Entwässerungskanal], wo de Butt [UG: Plattfisch] tau finnen is"
or "Butt [UG: hier häufig anzutreffender Familiennname] siin Fleeth".

"Dornbusch", ook dichtebii, hett mit dennen (UG) "Dorn-" heel nix tau krieg
'n, dat liggt anne Stroot, de "döör dennen Busch" güng.

Un' sau wiider, uns sau wiider...

Wii, in uns plattdüütsche Meenschapp, sünnt uns eeinig wonnen, Oortsnoomen
jümmers opp de offizielle hauchdüütsche Leesoort tau snacken un' tau
schriiven.
Datt hett mennigmool vöör un trüch goohn mit dat Verschuuwen von de
Vokaalen, un' door wöör 'n Bült hannöbersche un' uutlannsche (süddüütsche)
Schriivers mang, de datt föör Gewalt opp Hauchdüütsch schriiven wull 'n.
Datt pass' tau un' von Doog vöörn un achtern ne!

Greutens

Fiete.

(English version):

Yes- I should have guessed it to become to "Sprütt" too- but  my just two
natives of that regional dialect agreed on "Sprööts". That should be the
measurement to respect.

BTW: Everything concerning location names has to be looked upon very
specially. It seems to have gone fore and back for many times between Upper-
und Low-German.

For example:

"[Bad] Bederkesa" in LS is named "Beerst", what doesn't make any sense,
because it's origin is in A.D. 1159 grounded on the noble "Marcward de
Bederkesa" (Dutch?).

"Bützfleth" (a little village near Stade/Hamburg, at the Elbe river) had
been supposed of slavian (wendish) origin because of its "z". Absolutely
nonsense, for my opinion- it just means "the canal of the *butt*, some well
known coastal flat fish, or the canal Mr. Butt (a family's name to find
often in our region) had to hold watch on".

"Dornbusch", nearby also, does not refer to to any *bushes with thorns* but
to the main road leading "through" = (LS) "döör" some bushlands.

And so on, and so on...

In our LS-memberhood we concluded ALWAYS to use the official [UG] location
names, speaking and writing.

There had been a confusion of going forward and backward in shifting of
vocals [between LS and UG], and there were engaged many "hanover'sch" and
(foreign) southern German "official" writers who felt themselves forced to
write everything in UG.

It didn't fit in the past and still does not today.

Regards

Fiete.

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Names

[English below]

Velen dank, leyve Fiete, vör Dyn groute hölp.

> plattdüütschen "Heidjers" in miin Noobershipp meenen "Sprööt".

> two natives of that regional dialect agreed on "Sprööts".

Ja, wat den nu?  „Sprööt“ or „Sprööts“?

> Wii, in uns plattdüütsche Meenschapp, sünnt uns eeinig wonnen, Oortsnoomen
> jümmers opp de offizielle hauchdüütsche Leesoort tau snacken un' tau
> schriiven.

Ja, worüm den dat?  Ook wen ’t vör ’n ourd in dey mundaard vun syn rebeyd ’n
eygenen naam givt?  Ik ga altyd daar na, wou dey lüyd’ dat in jüm eer
mundaard segt, t.b. in Düytschland, Maideborch ~ Meideborg (Magdeburg),
Branneborg ~ Bramborg (Brandenburg), Bardörp (Bergedorf), Buxtu ~ Buxtuud’
(Buxtehude), Staad’ ~ Staa ~ Stoo (Stade), Demorst (Delmenhorst), Düörpm
(Dortmund), Ossenbrügge (Osnabrück), Hilmssen (Hildesheim), Paderbuorne
(Paderborn), un in de Nedderlannen Dreante (Drenthe), Berkoop (Oldeberkoop),
Grunnen ~ Grönnen (Groningen), Tweante (Twente), Deaventer (Deventer) un
Oaveriessel (Overijssel).  Wen ’t in dey lokaalspraak ’n naam geven dayt,
wourüm em den up „Hoog“-Düytsch (or Hollandsch), d.h. frömd, seggen un
schryven wen Jy in ’t land syn eyene spraak snakt or schryvt?!  Dat lett my
heyl snaaksch, höyr!  Hebt Jy lüyd’ Ju totaal slaan geven, dat Jy nu ook use
naams „geel“ segt un schryvt?

Na klaar, kan ’n gissen, man „offitschel“ verschuven un eygene „platte“
naams maken, ney, dat gayt nich.  Daar gifft ’t listen un kaarten mit dey
lokaalnaams vör.  Och, ik hev mayst vergeten, dat Du keyn wöyrböyker bruken
daist, tominnst keyn etymologischen.  Dayt dat ook vör naamslisten un
kaarten gellen?

Kumpelmenten,
Reinhard/Ron

***

Thanks for the help, dear Fiete!

> plattdüütschen "Heidjers" in miin Noobershipp meenen "Sprööt".

> two natives of that regional dialect agreed on "Sprööts".

Well, which one will it be?  „Sprööt“ or „Sprööts“?

> In our LS-memberhood we concluded ALWAYS to use the official [UG] location
> names, speaking and writing.

Why on earth would you do that?!  Do you do so even if there is a Lowlands
Saxon (Low German) name for a place in the area’s own dialect?  I always use
the names people use in their dialects, e.g., in Germany Maideborch ~
Meideborg (Magdeburg), Branneborg ~ Bramborg (Brandenburg), Bardörp
(Bergedorf), Buxtu ~ Buxtuud’ (Buxtehude), Staad’ ~ Staa ~ Stoo (Stade),
Demorst (Delmenhorst), Düörpm (Dortmund), Ossenbrügge (Osnabrück), Hilmssen
(Hildesheim), Paderbuorne (Paderborn), and in the Netherlands Dreante
(Drenthe), Berkoop (Oldeberkoop), Grunnen ~ Grönnen (Groningen), Tweante
(Twente), Deaventer (Deventer) un Oaveriessel (Overijssel).  If a local
language has a name for its own places and you use that language, why use
the “High” German (or Dutch) forms, namely foreign forms?  That seems
totally weird to me!  Have you guys totally capitulated to the power
languages?

Of course one can take guesses, and of course one shouldn’t make such
guesses official.  That’s what we have lists and maps for.  Oops!  I nearly
forgot that you shun dictionaries (at least etymological ones).  Does this
also go for name lists and maps?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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