LL-L "Language survival" 2003.05.04 (03) [E]

Sun May 4 17:55:32 UTC 2003

======================================================================
L O W L A N D S - L * 04.May.2003 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
http://www.lowlands-l.net * sassisch at yahoo.com
Rules & Guidelines: http://www.lowlands-l.net/rules.htm
Posting Address: lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org
Server Manual: http://www.lsoft.com/manuals/1.8c/userindex.html
Archives: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/archives/lowlands-l.html
=======================================================================
You have received this because you have been subscribed upon request.
To unsubscribe, please send the command "signoff lowlands-l" as message
text from the same account to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or
sign off at http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
=======================================================================
A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
=======================================================================

From: "thomas byro" <thbyro at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2003.04.30 (04) [E]

To Ron
>From Tom Byro

I don't really know what the Platt world has to offer or the problems in
its survival.  Back home, I had basically never been in a city.  I
didn't even live in a village but rather 3 kilometers outside of one.
Where I grew up, Plattdeutsch was overwhelmingly the predominant
language.  I had friends who lived even more remotely among whom it was
the only language.  My first exposure to things like bookstores,
theater, etc, was in New York.  That of course was in English.  I went
straight from a world of farms and wooden shoes to living in Manhattan,
the ultimate city.  The transition was made easier in some ways by the
fact that so many people in Manhattan spoke German in the mid 50s.  The
whole west side of Manhattan was virtually 100% German speaking, having
been settled by tens of thousands of Jewish refugees from Hitler.
Yorkville on the east side of Manhattan was likewise heavily German
speaking.  This was all well and good since I was also fluent in
Hochdeutsch.  However home to me meant Plattdeutsch.  In moments of
homesickness I used to sometimes address strangers in Plattdeutsch.
Usually I was met with looks of incomprehension but often looks of a
barely veiled contempt. I learned that Plattdeutsch speakers were some
sort of lower order of human being.  I can tell you that dialect
differences at the time would have meant very little to me.  I would
have been happy with any human contact as long as it was Platt.  I never
found any though.  After a while I concluded that here was no one on
this continent from home and I just gave up.

I used to think that Platt was spoken only by us country bumpkins.  The
thought that theater, books and all the other aspects of a sophisticated
civilization (such as I had come to know and love in New York), existed
in Platt would have gotten me very excited.  I assume that these do
exist in places like Bremen, Hamborg, etc?

Tom

----------

From: "thomas byro" <thbyro at earthlink.net>
Subject: LL-L "Language survival" 2003.04.30 (04) [E]

From: Sandy Fleming [sandy at scotstext.org]
Subject: "Language survival"

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Language survival
>
> Gary, you wrote above:
>
> > I think that Welsh also has an advantage in that noone
> > would say that Welsh was a variety of English - it is
> > very definitely a different language.
>
> Sure, this makes it harder to do the "dialect" thing, but apparently not
> impossible, and there is always the option of pretending that a minority
> language does not exist.  There are numerous such cases in the world.

There are people who can and do say that Welsh is just a
dialect of English.

This can be just ignorance. A couple of years ago, for example,
a young Londoner said to me "Welsh is like Cornish - they're
both bullshit." He was educated, in the sense that he had a
university degree. He could easily be representative of a large
segment of the populace.

On the other hand there are some observable phenomena which
encourage this view. For example, many Welsh speakers are
educated in English rather than Welsh, so that while their
English vocabulary is advanced their Welsh isn't. This means
that in a garage, for example, an English-only speaker will
overhear conversations like, "Welsh welsh carburettor welsh
welsh welsh sump leaking welsh welsh twenty-fourth April
welsh welsh..." all the big keywords and complex information
like dates are understandable so the English speaker gets the
gist of it. The effect can be not much different from an
English speaker listening in to continuous Scots.

Another phenomenon frequently seen on British out-take
programmes such as Denis Norden's "It'll Be All Right
on the Night" is that of TV presenters for Welsh TV who
are speaking into the mike in fluent Welsh, but when
something goes wrong it's always, "Oh bugger! Bloody
thing! Can I go again?" ie they use English when they're
not presenting, giving the impression that Welsh is a
front. I suspect there's a selection process in action
here - if the presenter has his outburst in Welsh, the
English-speaking audience won't get it, so it's not
shown on UK-wide TV.

Sandy
http://scotstext.org/

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Language survival

Tom (above):

<quote>
 I used to think that Platt was spoken only by us country bumpkins.  The
thought that theater, books and all the other aspects of a sophisticated
civilization (such as I had come to know and love in New York), existed
in Platt would have gotten me very excited.  I assume that these do
exist in places like Bremen, Hamborg, etc?
</quote>

Yes, Tom, and not only in those cities.  Most better North German
bookstores and libraries have "Plattdeutsch" or "Niederdeutsch" sections
(usually not under "Languages" but under "Heimat" and the like, thus
catalogued as "Local Interest").  There are a couple of professional
theaters that use the language (such as the Ohnsorg-Theater in Hamburg),
and there are loads of amateur drama clubs.

You might like to take a look at such places, publishers, organizations,
institutions, etc., in Northern Germany and the Eastern Netherlands
here:
http://www.sassisch.net/rhahn/low-saxon/plattewelt.htm
(Additions would be welcome, folks.)

Note that most publishers will accept online orders and will ship
worldwide, and my experiences with that have been positive.

Sandy (above):

> This can be just ignorance. A couple of years ago, for example,
> a young Londoner said to me "Welsh is like Cornish - they're
> both bullshit."

You get this sort of opinion regarding regional and minority language
from lots of Germans as well.

> He was educated, in the sense that he had a
> university degree. He could easily be representative of a large
> segment of the populace.

I am afraid that higher education, even advanced university degrees, are
not a guarantee that people know (or care) about such things.  Topics
related to language (other than basic reading and writing skills) seem
to be largely avoided in education generally, certainly in the United
States, and also in Australia when I lived there.  Most people know
virtually nothing about it, not even about the basic history and
relationships of their native language.  I often get surprised looks
when outside of linguistics circles I refer to English as a "Germanic
language," yes even among university students and graduates.  One person
once accused me of making that up, probably because I was
"Germanocentric" ... (the German equivalent of the bride's father in "My
Big Fat Greek Wedding," who claimed that all "civilized" languages
descended from Greek).  This is why it is so important to push for the
reintroduction of such topics into basic curricula and to kindle
people's interests in other ways.  You are not going to "convert" them
all, for most people simply don't care, but at least you can scatter
some seeds and give potential "enthusiasts" opportunities to avail
themselves of and further pursue such information, and many people do so
later in life as a part of returning to their "selves" and reclaiming
their roots.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

================================END===================================
* Please submit postings to lowlands-l at listserv.linguistlist.org.
* Postings will be displayed unedited in digest form.
* Please display only the relevant parts of quotes in your replies.
* Commands for automated functions (including "signoff lowlands-l") are
  to be sent to listserv at listserv.linguistlist.org or at
  http://linguistlist.org/subscribing/sub-lowlands-l.html.
======================================================================