LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.12 (01) [E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 12.May.2003 (01) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Ruud Harmsen <rh at rudhar.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.11 (11) [E]

17:58 11-5-2003 -0700
Colin Wilson:
> Incidentally, the "ch" in Scots is neither "front" nor "back", but
> between the two! Thus _loch_ in Scots and _loch_ in Gaelic are
> pronounced differently from each other.

Ron Hahn:
>I have noticed that, also noticed similar pronunciation of <ch> by
>Polish, Czech and Slovak speakers; e.g., Czech _chudý_ 'poor' and
_bych_
>'I would'.  I have been wondering what IPA symbol to use for it.

Could that be similar (in sound, not in mechanism) to the difference
between the back ch in Dutch north of the big rivers and south of
them? I think in that case it could be called uvular versus velar.
Sound samples here:
http://rudhar.com/fonetics/cxch.htm
--
Ruud Harmsen  http://rudhar.com/index/whatsnew.htm  11 May 2003

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From: "Chris Ferguson" <shoogly at ntlworld.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.11 (09) [E]

ah - but then you must know how to pronounce Greek! ;-)

Crìsdean Mac Fhearghais

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.11 (09) [E]

Colin Wilson wrote:
"The "ghamma" sound has only one form, the "back" form. Where one might
expect a "front" form, it's replaced by a sound usually explained in
the textbooks as "y"."

It's a shame that textbooks teaching Irish and Scottish Gaelic phonology
to learners are so bad at it. I've yet to find one anywhere near halfway
accurate.

As Colin describes, the counterpart to 'ghamma' is usually glossed as
/y/
in textbooks, and is being taught as /y/ in many classes (in the same
way
that the 'ghamma' sound is being taught as [g] and [x] is being passed
on
as [k], unfortunately). In fact, the phoneme in question is closer to
[hj], at least in the Irish variants I am familiar with.

Go raibh maith agaibh

Criostóir.

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From: Críostóir Ó Ciardha <paada_please at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.11 (09) [E]

Ron wrote:
"Voiceless or devoiced consonants, too, are as in Gaelic; e.g.,
acht [?aXt] 'eight'
lachen ['laX=N] 'to laugh'
Dag [daX] 'day'
Weg [vEC] 'way'
Rügg [rYC] 'back'
Tüüg [ty:C] 'stuff', 'clothes'"

When speaking Dutch I lazily resort to the 'ghamma' sound for that
tricky [g] as in /dag/ and am usually smiled at - perhaps because I
make a brave attempt at the fiendishly difficult phoneme. However, does
'ghamma' occur in that position in any Dutch variants?

Go raibh maith agat

Criostóir.

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From: "Chris Ferguson" <shoogly at ntlworld.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.11 (14) [E]

Feasgar math! ( Good evening ).

I've just got home ( 21.18 ) and picked up this email.

I have to admit I am no expert on phonology -Gaelic or otherwise- I just
say
the sounds and write down how they sound to me. I'd have to have a
proper
look though your email -and think how best to respond.  Things are often
pronounced quite differently in different dialects. I knew two women who
came from only 2 miles distance apart in Lewis -and they both pronounced
the
Gaelic for "wood" ( fiodh ) differently - I remember them having an
"argument" as to how it was properly pronounced!!!

The only book I have come across that deals only with the pronunciation
of
Scottish Gaelic is:

"Sounds of Gaelic. A beginner's Guide to the Pronunciation of Scottish
Gaelic" By Joan Noble. University of Victoria, Victoria, Canada 1985.
Which
comes with a cassette. I have a copy of the book - but it doesn't have
an
ISBN number.  I'll look at the relevant section soon -and let you know
what
she says.

Crìsdean Mac Fhearghais

P.S the vowels resembling Swedish and Norwegian ( especially ) wouldn't
surprise me - as there was a lot of influence from Old Norse -
especially in
Lewis Gaelic.

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From: "Chris Ferguson" <shoogly at ntlworld.com>
Subject: LL-L "Phonology" 2003.05.11 (11) [E]

This is very true -there are two pronunciations of "ch" in Gaelic -
depending on if it is beside a broad ( "a"."o". or "o" )  or slender
vowel
( "e" or "i" ). Thus the "ch" in "balach" ( boy ) is different to the
"ch"
in "balaich" ( boys )

Crìsdean Mac Fhearhgais

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From:  "Peter J. Wright" <peterjwright at earthlink.net>
Subject: Gaelic Phonology

Dear Reinhard,

Apologies for the non-pertinent post regarding the above!  I had gotten
the
impression somewhere along the line that Gaelic was an appropriate topic
for
Lowlands-L -- I guess all the talk about Scots and the Gaelic influence
on
English.  Sorry!

Do you know of any lists where Gaelic is a topic of discussion?

Thanks.

Kind regards,
Peter Wright
NY, NY

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