LL-L "Morphology" 2003.05.15 (09) [D/E]

[Lowlands-L]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 15.MAY.2003 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: burgdal32admin <burgdal32 at pandora.be>
Subject: LL-L "Morphology" 2003.05.14 (03) [E]

> From: William Parker <William.Parker at three.co.uk>
> Subject: Plurals in English
>
> Ron
>
> Picking up Luc's comments about the old West Vlaams use of s for
> plurals
> reminds me of the reverse situation for Kentish speech - which
> historically
> was based on Jutish patterns. Local dialect used to use en plurals up
> until
> c1900 eg Housen [houses], eyren [eggs].  Today this form of plural
> found
> in
> a few examples - children, brethren, etc.

>  William Parker
> ----------
>
> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Morphology
>
> Thanks for sharing that gem and your thoughts (above), William (Bill?)!
> It's truly appreciated and offers a lot of food for thought.

> Interesting to hear what you said about _-en_ as a plural marker in
> Kentish!  I'd certainly be interested in finding out more about that.
> Now, you or someone else please enlighten me on this.  So Kentish
> varieties are supposed to have Jutish substrates.  Unless we talk about
> different types of Jutish, I would then expect Kentish to use something
> like *_-er_ to mark plurals, since Scandinavian derives plurals by
> means
> of _-er_, _-ar_, _-or_, etc., and _-en_, _-an_, etc., is the
> common-gender definite article (though, probably under Saxon, i.e.
> Lowlands, influence, Southern Jutish now preposes definite articles,
> such as _æ_).  _Eyren_ for 'eggs' sounds suspiciously Low Franconian
> (Flemish/Dutch) to me, and I wonder if it is was brought with Frankish
> settlers.  It is one of those interesting double plurals.  In Modern
> Dutch the singular is _ei_, and the plural is _eieren_ (/ei+er+en/);
> cf., German and Lowlands Saxon (Low German) _Ei_ -> _Eier_, versus
> _Bohn(e)_ 'bean' > _Bohnen_ 'beans'.  Another, somewhat different
> example of Dutch double plural is _schoen_ 'shoe' -> _schoenen_
> 'shoes',
> where the first plural suffix has become a part of the singular form
> (*_schoe+(e)n_), cf. LS _schou_ (_Schoh_) -> (*_schoue_ > *_schöye_ >)
> _schöy_ (_Schöh_), German _Schuh_ -> _Schuhe_.  Please also note Scots
> _schae_ 'shoe' -> _schuin_ 'shoes'!
>
> Thanks again!
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron

Hello,

Here in West-Flanders we still struggle with the plurals.
For "ei" we have "eiers" (double plural?)
"Skoe/schoe" becomes "skoen/schoen", but in certain regions "shoes" and
even "shoens!
There is "kind" who has " kinders" (double?)
The same goes for:
-rund, runders
-tee, teen (tees) E: tow
-bed, bedden/beddens E: bed
-mes, messen/messens E: knife
There is some logic in all this. I found it in  "De  Bo's idioticon,
1892"
-mannelijke en vrouwelijke substantiefs, die met den klemtoon eindigen
of die eensylbig zijn, hebben in het meervoud -en, doch in
Frans-Vlaanderen, en delen van West-Vlaanderen ook de uitgang -s:
bands, hands, honds, monds, tands, hoeds, puids, troefs,  toogs, weegs,
baks, beks, bloks, buiks,daks, geks, leks, koeks, paks, plaks, reks,
riks, roks, sloks, struiks, taks, vertreks, vloeks, vierendeels, dams,
kams, rams, beens, kassijns, graans, kins, mans, steens, toons, kops,
krops, laps, taps, tops, traps, tweeloops, strops, beers, vloers,
viers, vreugdeviers, bouts, pots, ...
(E: In 2003: half of them are still in use like that)
-Uitgenomen die eindigen op  ng, nk, s, sch,:
gezangen, dingen, dranken, visschen...
Ook nog:
boomen, dagen, doeken, gronden, hoopen, koten, stallen, stokken,
verstanden,...
In samenstelling met een ander woord nemen ze weer -s
handbooms, koopdags, handdoeks, neusdoeks, aschhoops, molhoops,
wagenkots, koeistals, peerdestals, gaanstoks...
Hierbij nog te voegen:
fraks (m en v), kats (v), kieks (kiekens), rats (m en v), teljoors (o),
kools (v)= E: cabbage / koolen = E: coal
uiteindelijk ook nog:
smids, wijfs, baais, trogs, broeks, brils, dweils, uils, ooms, haans,
andjoens, keuns, zwijns, stiers... (E: most of them still in use)

groetjes
luc vanbrabant
oekene

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Morphology

Bedankt, Luc!

> For "ei" we have "eiers" (double plural?)

> There is "kind" who has " kinders" (double?)

Ja, ook in enkelte  Nedersaksische dialekten (_eier(s)_ ['?a.I3(s)],
_kinder(s)_ ['k_hI.N3(s)]) en in het Missingsch (Duits op Nedersaksisch
substraat)..

Nederlands "kinderen" is ook een geval van dubbel-meervoud:
/kind+er+en/.

In het Nedersaksisch (Nederduits, Platduits) is het meervoud-_-s_ heel
gewoon.  Misschien hebben het Engels en het Schots -- en wellicht zelfs
het Westvlaams (en het Zeelands?) het van het Saksisch geervt.  (Zijn
niet in de middeleeuwen Saksen na de vlaamse en zeelandse kusten geïmm
igreerd?)

Folks, above I responded by showing that West-Flemish double negatives
(with _-s_) bear striking resemblance to those in Lowlands Saxon (Low
German), and I asked if maybe English and Scots -- and also Flemish and
Zeelandic, by way of Saxon immigration -- inherited plural _-s_ from
Saxon.

Groetjes,
Reinhard/Ron

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