LL-L "Idiomatica" 2003.11.02 (04) [E]

Mon Nov 3 01:47:47 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (ZeÃªuws)
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From: Kenneth Rohde Christiansen <kenneth at gnu.org>
Subject: LL-L "Language varieties" 2003.11.02 (01) [E]

I would think it is pretty much the same in Western Jutish and
Colloquial Danish

A we gern spies den =~ I would eat it with pleasure
Det mÃ¥ do gern/godt gjÃ¸er =~ feel free to do that
Ka do ett lieg hjÃ¦lp mÃ¦ =~ can you please help me/please give me a hand
VÃ¦r sÃ¥ venlig ow hjÃ¦lp mÃ¦ =~ be so kind to help me

Danish:
Ja, sÃ¥ gerne =~ ja, graag =~ yes, please

> Are there distinctions in other Lowlands language varieties that resemble
> the one in LS?  How about Jutish (a non-Lowlands variety with
long-standing
> contacts with Northern LS)?

--
Kenneth Christiansen <kenneth(@)gnu.org>
http://kenneth.phileon.nl

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From: Luc Hellinckx <luc.hellinckx at pandora.be>
Subject: Language varieties

Ron,

You wrote,

"...I assume that in Dutch and Afrikaans you would tend to consistently use
_graag_, just as German consistently uses _gern_.  Is this correct?"

Don't think so...Brabantish would use "gerust" (D), "gerÃ¶st" (B) in the
second case, when we want to describe permission. So we would say: "Ã‰t 'n
mÃ Ã  rÃ¶steg op", or "Ã‰t 'n mÃ Ã  gerÃ¶st op", where we want to say, "Please go
ahead and feel free to eat it!".

Strikes me that "dryst" somewhat resembles "rust" (D), "ruhe" (G). I'm not
saying that it's the same word here, but it could be possible because we
also have some words starting with _ru_ ("rug" (D), "rÃ¼cke" (G), "back" (E))
or _ro_ ("rok" (D), "Rock" (G), "skirt" (E)) that get a supplementary
initial "d" like "drug" and "drok" (B). Moreover, it sounds a little rude or
harsh to me to wish that somebody should eat a piece of cake
"boldly"...where's the hardship?

Greetings,

Luc Hellinckx

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Idiomatica

Thanks a lot for the input (above), Kenneth and Luc.

Luc, ah!, thanks for reminding me of _rustig_ and _gerust_ as equivalents of
LS _dryst_.  You are absolutely right -- they do work almost exactly alike.
I had spaced it out for a while.

> Moreover, it sounds a little rude or harsh to me to wish that somebody
should eat a
> piece of cake "boldly"...where's the hardship?

:-)  In this context it's "deteriorated" to the level of a function
particle.   My theory is that it began something like "May I be so (dryst =)
bold as to ...?" or "Don't mind be being so (dryst =) bold as to ...", and
this developed into a function marker with the meaning of "not hestitate to
..."  (e.g., "Don't hesitate to finish the cake").  Does this make any more
sense?  Of course, the thing about the cake was my invention, though it was
grammatical, as far as I know.

Dutch _gerust_ and _rustig_ are sematically more similar to German _ruhig_.
These mean "quiet(ly)" or, in this context more importantly, "calm(ly)".  So
in German you can say:

1)
Du kannst den Kuchen GERN aufessen.
or
Du kannst den Kuchen RUHIG aufessen.
Feel free to eat up the cake! Go ahead and finish the cake!

2)
Wenn du den Kuchen GERN aufessen willst, kannst du es GERN tun.
or
Wenn du den Kuchen GERN aufessen willst, kannst du es RUHIG tun.
If you'd like to finish the cake, by all means go ahead and do so!

3)
Ich weiÃŸ, du willst den Kuchen GERN aufessen. Ja, dann iss ihn (nur) GERN
auf!
or
Ich weiÃŸ, du willst den Kuchen GERN aufessen. Ja, dann iss ihn (nur) RUHIG
auf!
I know you're dying to eat up the cake. Well, then go ahead and it is up!

So there *is* or *can be* a difference!

I have a feeling that the forms with _ruhig_ are northern.  Am I wrong?

In Hamburg Missingsch it is _ruich_:

1) Du kannseeng Kuuchng RUICH aufessn.
    (LS: Du kanst d'n kouken DRYST up-eten.)
2) Wennu deeng Kuuchng GEERNE aufessen wejs, denn kannsu das RUICH machng.
    (LS: Wen du d'n kouken GEYRN up-eten wult, den kanst (du) dat DRYST
doun.)
3) Ich weischa, du willseeng Kuuchng GEERNE aufessen. Tscha, denn essien man
RUICH auf!
    (LS: Ik weet (ja), du wult d'n kouken GEYRN up-eten. Tja, den eet em man
DRYST up!)

As for etymology, _dryst_ (<driest>, and German _dreist_) 'bold',
'audacious', it is obviously related to Dutch _driest_ with the same
meaning.  Interesting! You would expect *_drijst_. So I assume it's a Saxon
or Frisian loan.  Westerlauer Friesian has the cognate _dryst_.  Might this
be a case of a Frisian loan in Saxon, or of a Saxon loan in Frisian, or are
the two just related?

According to the _Herkunftsduden_, _dreist_ is a Lowlands Saxon (Low German)
loan in German also, having entered German in the 17th century via Eastern
Central German, being the equivalent of Upper German _keck_ (and _kÃ¼hn_ [=
Engl. "keen" and Dutch _koen_], I suppose).  Its Old Saxon equivalent does
not seem to be known.  Its Middle Saxon one is _dryst(e)_, _drÃ®st(e)_.  It
is related to Old English _Ã°rist(e)_, which has no Modern English descendant
I can think off, though I assume Scots _thrist_ and English _thrust_ are
related to it (and they are supposed to be derived from Old Nordic _Ã¾rÃ½sta_
> Danish _driste_, Swedish _drista_, etc.).  In actual fact, the _Duden_
does trace it back to the group of words to which German _dringen_ ('to
press', 'to urge', 'to insist') belongs, so I think I'm on the right track.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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