LL-L "Traditions" 2003.11.10 (07) [E]

Tue Nov 11 00:59:34 UTC 2003

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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
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From: Reuben Epp <repp at silk.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2003.11.10 (04) [E]

Reuben Epp repp at silk.net replies to 'Traditions' 2003.11.10 (04)

 On Saturday, 8th of November, 2003
Jannie Lawn wrote:

> > From: Jannie Lawn <jannie.lawn at ntlworld.com>
> > Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2003.11.08 (07) [E]
> >
> > My comment: In English there are the song:
> > 'Ring-a-ring-a roses,
> > a pocket full of posies.
> > Hatischa, hatischa,
> > we all fall down'.
> > (Don't know the English spelling for 'hatischa', but that is what it
> sounds
> > like to my Dutch ears)
> >
> > Groeten, Jannie Lawn

Dear Lowlanders,

There are questions as to original wording of this Mother Goose
Rhyme about roses. Further information is available by searching
for Mother Goose Rhymes via 'google.'

Cheers!

Reuben Epp

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From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon at historian.net>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2003.11.10 (03) [E]

> From: Jannie Lawn <jannie.lawn at ntlworld.com>
> Subject: LL-L "Delectables" 2003.11.08 (07) [E]
>
> Dear Lowlanders:
> Two quotes, which I think may talk about 2 different children' s songs.
> 1)  I seem to recall as a young child singing a song about dancing around
> the Hollerbush.  Does this seem at all familiar?
> and:
> 2)  I know it in German, which may be the only version, and it's sung to
the
> tune of "Ring around the rosies" and "performed" in a circle:
>
>    Ringel-rangel Rosen,
>    Schöne Aprikosen,
>    Veilchen und Vergissmeinicht.
>    Alle kleinen Kinder setzen sich,
>    setzen sich in'n Holderbusch,
>    machen alle husch, husch, husch.
>
>    (Ring around the rosies,
>    lovely apricosies,
>    violets, forget-me-nots.
>    All little children sit down,
>    sit down in [= under] the elder bush,
>    and they all go whoosh, whoosh, whoosh.)
>
> My comment: In English there are the song:
> 'Here we go round the Mulberry bush, early in the morning.'
> and another one:
> 'Ring-a-ring-a roses,
> a pocket full of posies.
> Hatischa, hatischa,
> we all fall down'.
> (Don't know the English spelling for 'hatischa', but that is what it
sounds
> like to my Dutch ears)
>
> Groeten, Jannie Lawn

This children's song and its variants are a result of the Bubonic Plague in
Europe.  The "Ring around thje rosie" is the red lesion and its escar..the
buboe.  The "pocket full of posies" is the collection of flowers carried to
ward of the disease. "atchew ("hatischa")/ashes...is sneezing, the final
pneumonic form of the disease and "all fall down" (dead).

Jack

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From: Ed Alexander <edsells at cogeco.ca>
Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2003.11.10 (04) [E]

At 11:30 AM 11/10/03 -0800, Mike, Philip and Ron wrote:
>From: Szelog, Mike <Mike.Szelog at CITIZENSBANK.com>
>Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2003.11.10 (03) [E]
>
>Is there any link to this song (in German - Lowlands) and the plague as
>there is in the English song?! Or is this just a German children's song
>which just happens to have the same tune (I assume the tune would have been
>borrowed, since it was so well known)?
>----------
>From: Philip Ernest Barber <pbarber at loc.gov>
>Subject: LL-L "Traditions" 2003.11.10 (03) [E]
>
>"Hatischa" is just "a-choo," the English onomatapoic word for the sound of
>sneezing. Supposedly the song goes back to the Great Plague in London
>(1666?). which was probably pneumonic or bubonic plague. The song acts out
>the symptoms and results of the disease.  Its unconscious purpose is
>probably desensitization of the children terrified or bewildered at the
>death of so many of their friends and relatives.
>----------
>From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
>Subject: Traditions
>
>Thanks for unwittingly answering Mike's question, Philip.  It's quite sad
to
>realize the tragic origin of these assumedly innocent children's games,
>isn't it?

Maybe not.  See http://www.snopes.com/language/literary/rosie.htm

Ed Alexander, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Traditions

Thanks, Ed.

However ... while it may well be true that it is an urban legend, the posted
presentation does not seem to prove that it is one, only *says* so.  How do
you know it is correct?  They talk about assumptions on the part of the
proponents but come across as doing no more than presenting opponents'
assumptions themselves.  Perhaps we ought to take both sides' arguments with
grains of salt.

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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