LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.08 (03) [D/E]
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Wed Oct 8 16:11:31 UTC 2003
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L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2003 (03) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Floor en Lyanne van Lamoen <f.v.lamoen at wxs.nl>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.07 (05) [E]
Beste allemaal,
[AH]
> > "The name nakki is derived from the German Knackwurst, "the snapping
> > sausage". In America the name has sometimes been corrupted to
> > Knockwurst.
[LVB]
> In Flemish the words "knak / knok" exist. They mean somethinng that
> is broken, a corner, a knack...
> We have a town called "Knokke".
> Meany roads are "winding" in Flanders, and in the corners, one can see
> meany times a pub with the name "In de Knok".
> The sausage you mentioned is called "ne knakworst", "Weense worstjes"
> or "Frankfurter".
[RFH]
> So, Luc, you think it is possible that American English "knockwurst"
> ['nÉ'kwÉsà ?st] / ['nQkw@`Rst]. I suppose there is that possibility, and
we
> should always be open to it, that this and other words entered American
> English through "Dutch," which oftentimes may mean Zeelandic, Flemish,
etc.
<...>
> In Lowlands Saxon (Low German), _knakken_ (<knacken> /knak+n/ [knak=N])
> means 'to crack', 'to break (open)' (German _knacken_). Related are the
> nouns _knakken_ (<Knacken> /knak+n/ [knak=N]) 'broken-off piece (of
wood)',
> 'knag', 'gnarl', 'knurl', '(large) nob', 'chunk' (German _Knacken_), and
> _knaks_ (<Knacks> /knak+s/ [knaks]) 'crack', 'break', 'chip'. _Knacks_
is
> used in German also (certainly in Missingsch), but I have a hunch that it
is
> a LS loan. (LS has the deverbal and deadjectival noun suffix /-s/, as in
> _warms_ (<Warms> /varm+s/ [va:ms]) 'warmth'.)
<...>
Nederlands kent hetzelfde soort gebruik van knakken als je hierboven
beschrijft voor Laaglands Saksisch, maar de zelfstandige naamwoorden
(nouns) ken ik niet zozeer. Het bijbehorende geluid "een knak" associeer
ik altijd met het breken van potloden (pencils). Het kan ook een breuk
(crack/break) zijn.
Daarnaast is er het woord 'knik' voor een gedeeltelijke (partial) breuk,
of een hoek/vouw (angle/fold). Het werkwoord knikken heeft daarnaast ook
de betekenis 'to nod'. Een knik is dus minder sterk dan een knak.
Nog weer een beetje minder sterk is een 'kink' (hitch), dat vooral wordt
gebruikt in de uitdrukking "er zit een kink in de kabel" (there is a
hitch somewhere).
Wat ik opmerkelijk vond in Frankrijk was dat knakworst daar wordt
verkocht als "knacki" - zal wel een merknaam (trademark) zijn.
Groeten uit Goes,
Floor van Lamoen.
----------
From: ezinsser at tiscali.co.za <ezinsser at tiscali.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.07 (09) [E]
Hi all,
Yes, reminds me of the 'neuk' in Muckleneuk (Pretoria) which presumably
means hill.
Elsie Zinsser
> "Hill":
> Gaelic: cnoc (> English "cnock", Scots _knock_, _cnock_ 'hillock')
> Irish: cnoc
> Old Irish: cnocc
> Old Breton: cnoch
> Proto-Celtic: *knokko- (< *knog-ko-)
>
> Suggested by some:
> < *cunocco
> Cf.:
> Gaulish: cuno- 'high'
> Welsh: cwn 'height' (< /ku-/ 'strong', 'mighty', 'great' = *prominent)
>
> Cf.:
> Danish: knok 'little hillock' (< Celtic, Scots or English?)
> Also:
> '(nape of the) neck'
> Old Norse: hnakki
> English: hnecca > neck
> Old Frisian: hnekka
> Middle Dutch: nec ~ necke, nac
> Old Saxon: hnakko
> Old German: hnacch, hnach, nach
> Middle German: nac, nacke
> Modern German: Nacken (> Genick)
> < Germanic: *hnakkæ(n) ~ *hnakka
>
> Tocharian: kñuk
>
> Regards,
> Reinhard/Ron
----------
From: NTL <shoogly at ntlworld.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.07 (09) [E]
In Scottish Gaelic "an cnoc" is a hill. It is spelt "cnoc" but "cn" in
Gaelic is pronounced "cr" so it is pronounced /krock/ - so seems it could be
Gaelic if it is of the Q-Celtic ( Goedlic group ) - but if this is in the
Gaullish area which I believe it once was - I believe Gaullish was a
P-Celtic language and am not aware of what the P-celtic for hill is ( I have
a Welsh dictionary somewhere - but can't find it ). But it is the same as
"Usk" like the river in England. This is from the Q-Celtic Uisge - which
means water - and I believe the P-Celtic for water is a different word but
in the England area in Celtic times this was a P-Celtic area - so there must
be some historical / etymological reasons for having a Q-Celtic word over a
P-Celtic. Tracing the placing of the distribution of these relative distinct
groups is very interesting for showing historical events
Crìsdean Mac Fhearghais / Chris Ferguson
----------
From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology
Floor (above):
> Daarnaast is er het woord 'knik' voor een gedeeltelijke (partial) breuk,
> of een hoek/vouw (angle/fold). Het werkwoord knikken heeft daarnaast ook
> de betekenis 'to nod'. Een knik is dus minder sterk dan een knak.
Lowlands Saxon (Low German):
(1) _knik_ (<Knick> [knIk], masc.) 'fold', 'crease', 'bend', 'crack'
(2) _knik_ (<Knick> [knIk], masc.) 'bushy border or wind shelter',
'(field/paddock) hedge'
(1) _knikken_ (<knicken> ['knIk=N]) 'to fold', 'to crease', 'to bend'
(2) _knikken_ (<knicken> ['knIk=N]) 'to cut wood from a _knik_ (2)'
Are these separate or are they etymologically linked?
> Nog weer een beetje minder sterk is een 'kink' (hitch), dat vooral wordt
> gebruikt in de uitdrukking "er zit een kink in de kabel" (there is a
> hitch somewhere).
English has "kink" (same meaning), apparently borrowed from Dutch.
Elsie (above):
> Yes, reminds me of the 'neuk' in Muckleneuk (Pretoria) which presumably
means hill.
Ah! That looks suspiciously Scots to me. "Big Hill"?
I'd like to revisit this defunct word group:
German < LS _Hanse_, Dutch _Hanze_ < Middle Saxon _hanse_ 'trading league',
'commercial alliance', Old German _hansa_ 'group (of warriors)', 'entourage'
(= ordinary people following warriors?), Gothic _hansa_ 'mass', 'large
group', Old English _hÅs_ (< */hanz(@)/?) 'bevy', 'band', 'covey', 'crew'
Apparently, Finnish _kansa_ 'folk', 'people' was derived from an Old
Germanic version of the word (> _kansakunta_ 'nation', _kansallisuus_
'nationatity', _kansalaulu_ 'folksong', _kansatanssi_ 'folkdance', etc.).
What interests me to know is if the semantic extension of shift is
Finnish-specific or if it took place in the donating language variety. The
most likely scenarios seem to me to be the semantic extension "band" >
"ethnic group" > "folk", or "ordinary people/settlers following a band of
(foreign? Germanic?) warriors" > "folk". What do you think?
Here is another interesting marine-derived term: LS _havarey_ (<Havaree>
[hQvQ'rE.I]) ~ _haverey_ (<Haveree> [hQve'rE.I]) 'freight damage',
'breakdown', 'shipwreck', 'accident', 'disaster', 'fight', 'debacle'
Dutch _averij_ (same)
Middle Saxon _haverye_ (same)
> Middle German _hafarei_, _havarie_ > Modern German _Haverie_ (same)
English (obsolete) "average" (duty/tax imposed on goods)
< French _averié_ 'damaged (freight)'
< Italian _avaria_ 'breakdown', 'damage' or
< Spanish _averia_ ~ _haberia_ 'breakdown'
< Arabic عوار, عوار٠ة _`awÄr_, _`awÄriya_ '(freight) damage'
Anything to add?
Regards,
Reinhard/Ron
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