LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.08 (09) [E]

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L O W L A N D S - L * 08.OCT.2003 (09) * ISSN 189-5582 * LCSN 96-4226
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A=Afrikaans Ap=Appalachian B=Brabantish D=Dutch E=English F=Frisian
L=Limburgish LS=Lowlands Saxon (Low German) N=Northumbrian
S=Scots Sh=Shetlandic V=(West)Flemish Z=Zeelandic (Zeêuws)
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From: Andy (Scots-Online) <andy at scots-online.org>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.08 (03) [D/E/S]

Elsie Zinsser wrote:

> Yes, reminds me of the 'neuk' in Muckleneuk (Pretoria) which presumably
> means hill.

Could that perhaps be Scots Muckle = 'big', 'large' and Neuk = 'a projecting
point of land', 'the corner of a building or street', 'an outlying or remote
place'?

Andy Eagle

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From: ezinsser <ezinsser at icon.co.za>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.08 (03)

Ron and all,

> Anything to add?

Yes, what about 'kuni' -old german- as in the first name (Kunigunde) meaning
tribe/folk/kinship?

> Apparently, Finnish _kansa_ 'folk', 'people' was derived from an Old
> Germanic version of the word (> _kansakunta_ 'nation', _kansallisuus_
> 'nationatity', _kansalaulu_ 'folksong', _kansatanssi_ 'folkdance', etc.).
> What interests me to know is if the semantic extension of shift is
> Finnish-specific or if it took place in the donating language variety.
The
> most likely scenarios seem to me to be the semantic extension "band" >
> "ethnic group" > "folk", or "ordinary people/settlers following a band of
> (foreign? Germanic?) warriors" > "folk".  What do you think?

Regards,

Elsie Zinsser

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From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: Etymology

Andy (above):

> Could that perhaps be Scots Muckle = 'big', 'large' and Neuk = 'a
projecting
> point of land', 'the corner of a building or street', 'an outlying or
remote
> place'?

I take it that _neuk_ is related to English "nook."  Correct?  It is
believed to be related to Norwegian dialectal _nōk_.  Apparently it is not
derived from Gaelic _niuc_.  The latter apparently is an Old Scots loan,
which also made its way into Irish.

I wrote:

> Apparently, Finnish _kansa_ 'folk', 'people' was derived from an Old
> Germanic version of the word (> _kansakunta_ 'nation', _kansallisuus_
> 'nationatity', _kansalaulu_ 'folksong', _kansatanssi_ 'folkdance', etc.).

I have been wondering about the _k-_ here.  Finnish does have _h-_, thus you
would expect *_hansa_.  The question is if the Old Germanic word had a
pronunciation like *_xansa_, or if this is due to a Finnish-internal shift,
and Old Finnish did not have _h-_, thus something like _hansa_ >>
_hansa_/_xansa_ > _kansa_.  The next question would be what the origin of
Finnish _h-_ is.

Something like this appears to have happened indeed.  Consider (assumedly
earlier) Germanic _hana_ > Finnish _kana_ 'hen' (cf. German _Hahn_, LS
_haan_, Danish _hane_, Swedish _hane_ 'rooster', German _Henne_, LS _heen_,
Danish _høne_, Swedish _hona_, _höna_ 'hen') vs. (assumedly later) Germanic
*_hana_ > Finnish _hana_ 'tap', 'faucet', 'spigot' (cf. German _Hahn_, LS
_haan_, Danish _hane_ 'tap', 'faucet', 'spigot').

Unfortunately, I can't find a comparative Finnic, Finno-Ugric or Uralic
index online that could shed light on this.

Any ideas?

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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