LL-L "History" 2003.10.24 (04) [E]

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From: Theo Homan <theohoman at yahoo.com>
Subject: LL-L "Etymology" 2003.10.23 (04) [E]

> From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Etymology
[...]
> Also, remember that much or most of the coast of
> what are now the
> Netherlands and Belgium used to be Frisian-speaking.
>
[...]

Hi,

Sorry to interrupt. But how do you know? Any
archaeological findings in this region?
The only thing we know is the Roman who wrote that at
the coast 'Frissi' were living.

{And who are the 'Fresani' a Roman spoke about?}

vr.gr.
Theo Homan

----------

From: R. F. Hahn <sassisch at yahoo.com>
Subject: History

Theo:

> Sorry to interrupt. But how do you know? Any
> archaeological findings in this region?

Apparently this is passed-down information beginning with Roman sources.
That Saxons harrassed the coast of Gaul about the same time or beginning
even a little before they harrassed the coast of Britain is considered well
established.  The claim that they settled in Gaul is still being debated.

<quote>
SAXONS, a Teutonic people mentioned for the first time by Ptolemy about the
middle of the 2nd century. At that tinie they are said to have inhabited the
neck of the Cimbric peninsula, by which we have probably to understand the
modern province of Schleswig, together with three islands lying off its
western coast. We next hear of them in connexion with piratical expeditions
in the North Sea about the year 286. These raids became more frequent during
the 4th century, and at the beginning of the 5th century the northern coast
of Gaul and the south-east coast of Britain were known as litora Saxonica,
owing either to their liability to the attacks of the Saxons or, as some
think, to the establishment of Saxon colonies there. During the same period
the Saxons appear to have conquered a considerable portion of north-west
Germany. According to their own traditions they landed at Hadeln in the
neighbourhood of Cuxhaven and seized the surrounding districts from the
Thuringians. It is clear that by the middle of the 4th century they had
advanced westwards into the basin of the Yssel, from whence they drove the
Frankish Salii into Batavia. In the following centuries we find them in
possession of the whole of the basin of the Ems, except the coast district,
while that of the Weser with all its tributaries belonged to them as far
south as the Diemel, where they bordered on the Hessian Franks, the ancient
Chatti. The conquest of the Boructuari who dwelt between the Lippe and the
Ruhr marks the extent of their progress towards the south-west. This took
place shortly before the end of the 7th century.
</quote>
(http://90.1911encyclopedia.org/S/SA/SAXONS.htm)

<quote>
SAXONS: Germanic people, first mentioned in the 2d cent. by Ptolemy as
inhabiting the southern part of the Cimbric Peninsula (Southern Jutland).
Holding the area at the mouth of the Elbe River and some of the nearby
islands, they gradually extended their territory southward across the Weser
River. A politically unified people, the Saxons were ruled by princes or
chieftains. Their assemblies, in which all classes except slaves were
represented, were consulted on all issues of war and peace. In the 3d and
4th cent. the Saxons were active in raiding expeditions along the coasts of
the North Sea. The European coast from the Loire to the Scheldt rivers and
the southeastern coast of Britain, where defenses were erected against their
piratical raids, were known to the Romans as _litora Saxonica_ [Saxon
shores]. By the 5th cent. Saxons had established settlements along the north
shore of Gaul, especially at the mouth of the Loire, and eventually these
Saxons came under Frankish domination. As the Roman occupation of Britain
weakened, the Saxons increased their marauding attacks and also began
(c.450) to make settlements there, resisting all efforts to drive them off.
By the end of the 6th cent. they and their neighbors the Angles were firmly
established in the island, laying the foundations of the Anglo-Saxon
kingdoms. Wessex, the kingdom of the West Saxons, became dominant. After the
migration to Britain, the Saxons on the Continent came to be identified by
historians as the Old Saxons. By virtue of their conquest (531) of
Thuringia, they occupied NW Germany. In 566 they were subjugated by the
Franks and forced to pay tribute. The Old Saxons waged intermittent war with
the Franks until the end of the 8th cent., when they were conquered by
Charlemagne and absorbed into his empire. After this conquest they were
forcibly converted to Christianity. In the division of the empire by the
Treaty of Verdun (843), the lands of the Saxons were included in the section
that formed the basis for modern Germany.
</quote>
(http://www.orbilat.com/Encyclopaedia/S/Saxons.html)

<quote>
Furthermore, one of Euric's most important elements of military strength was
his naval power based on the west coast of Gaul. (Wolfram, 1979, p188) The
"curved ships of the Saxons" would have been the preferred vessels for both
merchants and naval commanders, and we can picture Cerdic being active in
both of these roles.
</quote>
(http://camelot.celtic-twilight.com/rudmin/arthur_cerdic_c6.htm)

<quote>
I am not sure where the 'Saxonni' come from, since I have always seen
them called 'Saxones'.  Perhaps that is a later, medieval version, just like
the Britanni became the Brittones.  I would also recommend Pohl, W. (1997)
Ethnic names and identities in the British Isles: A comparative
perspective¹,  in Hines, J. (ed.) The Anglo-Saxons from the Migration
Period to the Eighth Century: An Ethnographic Perspective, Woodbridge:
Boydell Press.  Walter Pohl has a lot of interesting information on the
Angli vel Saxones.  He notes that Bede calls them 'Angli' when they are
being spiritual and good and 'Saxones' when they are making war, etc.
'vel' of course means 'otherwise', so Saxon is another name for Angle.
There are also Saxons in Frankish Gaul (see Gregory of Tours'
Histories).
</quote>
(http://www.geocities.com/andrewburbidge/00Jul19.htm)

<quote>
". . . at Boulogne to clear the sea along the coast of Belgica and Armorica,
which the Franks and Saxons were infesting . . ."
Eutropius 'Breviarium Ab Urbe Condita' (written c.370)
</quote>
(http://www.stephen.j.murray.btinternet.co.uk/empires2.htm)

<quote>
The land was covered by the fortifications of Valentinian; but the sea-coast
of Gaul and Britain was exposed to the depredations of the Saxons.
</quote>
(http://www.cca.org/cm/rome/vol2/ch2504.html)

See also a discussion here:
http://thearchof.topcities.com/Roman/saxon_shore.htm

Regards,
Reinhard/Ron

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